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Mortiser Question
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OFWW
Oct 22, 2016, 8:06:07 PM10/22/16
to
When cutting/drilling a mortise is it normal for the chisel to follow
the grain?
When I was practicing on a 3/4" square piece on a through the board
Mortise the chisel went in about 3/16" at the top and exited about
1/16 " from the same edge at the bottom. The grain slanted that way
normally.
I was using a 3/8" bit.
On soft wood it did not wander.
I am practicing for doors, for cabinets down the road.
the grain?
When I was practicing on a 3/4" square piece on a through the board
Mortise the chisel went in about 3/16" at the top and exited about
1/16 " from the same edge at the bottom. The grain slanted that way
normally.
I was using a 3/8" bit.
On soft wood it did not wander.
I am practicing for doors, for cabinets down the road.
whit3rd
Oct 23, 2016, 3:23:22 AM10/23/16
to
On Saturday, October 22, 2016 at 5:06:07 PM UTC-7, OFWW wrote:
> When cutting/drilling a mortise is it normal for the chisel to follow
> the grain?
>
> When I was practicing on a 3/4" square piece on a through the board
> Mortise the chisel went in about 3/16" at the top and exited about
> 1/16 " from the same edge...
> When cutting/drilling a mortise is it normal for the chisel to follow
> the grain?
>
> When I was practicing on a 3/4" square piece on a through the board
> Mortise the chisel went in about 3/16" at the top and exited about
In soft wood (or green wood) it is difficult to keep a cut straight: the
wood deforms ahead of the cut, and when the chisel is buried in the
cut, that deformation springlike pushes it sideways. It might just
be the quality of the test scrap.
Check, by rotating the chisel, to see if it has a dull edge, which
might also make it prone to wander.
If it always cuts that direction, you'd want to shim the fence parallel, of course.
dpb
Oct 23, 2016, 9:16:26 AM10/23/16
to
On 10/22/2016 7:06 PM, OFWW wrote:
> When cutting/drilling a mortise is it normal for the chisel to follow
> the grain?
>
> When I was practicing on a 3/4" square piece on a through the board
> Mortise the chisel went in about 3/16" at the top and exited about
> 1/16 " from the same edge at the bottom. The grain slanted that way
> normally.
>
> I was using a 3/8" bit.
>
> On soft wood it did not wander.
It shouldn't, no (obvious, I suppose? :) ).
> When cutting/drilling a mortise is it normal for the chisel to follow
> the grain?
>
> When I was practicing on a 3/4" square piece on a through the board
> Mortise the chisel went in about 3/16" at the top and exited about
> 1/16 " from the same edge at the bottom. The grain slanted that way
> normally.
>
> I was using a 3/8" bit.
>
> On soft wood it did not wander.
Something is letting the chisel get off plane; as another noted if it
isn't honed well/evenly it takes more force and that is possibly
contributing. From your other saga re: fit 'n finish, who knows what
else may be going on?
A quality mortiser is quite capable of square (to the surface, that is,
not just the hole) resulting mortises in hardwoods and not being
excessively influenced by grain direction, yes. The amount you're
talking about implies a major movement of some parts of the mechanism.
Leon
Oct 23, 2016, 9:57:07 AM10/23/16
to
On 10/22/2016 7:06 PM, OFWW wrote:
ALSO regardless of the brand of mortiser you need to sharpen the chisels
first, just like with regular wood chisels.
The outer surfaces should have a mirror like surface and the inner end
should be sharpened with a cone shaped stone specifically made for this
purpose.
dpb
Oct 23, 2016, 11:18:59 AM10/23/16
to
On 10/23/2016 8:56 AM, Leon wrote:
...
> The outer surfaces should have a mirror like surface and the inner end
> should be sharpened with a cone shaped stone specifically made for this
> purpose.
And, like lapping cylinder seats, the stone and its arbor needs must be
concentric to the inner faces and not have excessive runout or
out-of-round--else't, the variation in wall face angles/material will
tend to make for such asymmetries.
From the sounds of the tool rework just to get a most minimal even
functioning apparatus you'd probably get better results from a
drill-press addon than this thing's going to do. Although certainly
cheap, poorly sharpened punches and drill bits can wreak havoc on
results even with the better light-duty mortisers such as the Delta or
Jet. The heavier fella's like the larger Powermatic have enough "beef"
they can overcome at least some of that, but still work _much_ better w/
quality and well-tuned chisel sets.
...
> The outer surfaces should have a mirror like surface and the inner end
> should be sharpened with a cone shaped stone specifically made for this
> purpose.
concentric to the inner faces and not have excessive runout or
out-of-round--else't, the variation in wall face angles/material will
tend to make for such asymmetries.
From the sounds of the tool rework just to get a most minimal even
functioning apparatus you'd probably get better results from a
drill-press addon than this thing's going to do. Although certainly
cheap, poorly sharpened punches and drill bits can wreak havoc on
results even with the better light-duty mortisers such as the Delta or
Jet. The heavier fella's like the larger Powermatic have enough "beef"
they can overcome at least some of that, but still work _much_ better w/
quality and well-tuned chisel sets.
OFWW
Oct 23, 2016, 12:03:12 PM10/23/16
to
OFWW
Oct 23, 2016, 12:11:03 PM10/23/16
to
other when only 3 sides are in contact with the wood. Suggested was to
drill a hole at each end then in the middle so that all four sides of
the bit are in contact with the wood, and then cut out the smaller
portions left over where only two sides are in contact so as to
prevent wandering due to the stresses on the chisel.
Seems I have more checking to do per recommendations given here.
Thanks
OFWW
Oct 23, 2016, 12:21:49 PM10/23/16
to
On Sun, 23 Oct 2016 08:56:59 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
Hmmm, this made me rethink the situation. This bit is not mirror
finished on the outside. It is a bit rough to the eye. This bit also
had a raggedy edge on the hole where it entered the wood. Made me
wonder about it at the time but I was too focused on other things.
Guess first priority today is the bit itself, after I rotate it and
see if the bit wanders accordingly, then to the sharpening part.
Thanks Leon.
wrote:
finished on the outside. It is a bit rough to the eye. This bit also
had a raggedy edge on the hole where it entered the wood. Made me
wonder about it at the time but I was too focused on other things.
Guess first priority today is the bit itself, after I rotate it and
see if the bit wanders accordingly, then to the sharpening part.
Thanks Leon.
dpb
Oct 23, 2016, 12:54:23 PM10/23/16
to
some really flimsy-looking ones on some of the knock-offs, at least by
the 'pitchurs; not had those in hand to actually see...
Also, by "movement" above, it's relative of machine/wood, if the
holddowns aren't up to the task, that's a problem, too. Just a light
rod or similar probably isn't enough to prevent rotation in hardwoods,
even if not bulk movement.
These are cases where "Bulk is Better!" almost universally...
Leon
Oct 23, 2016, 3:05:51 PM10/23/16
to
less effort to plunge.
John McGaw
Oct 23, 2016, 4:20:43 PM10/23/16
to
moved straight down on its carriage and there is no way for it to veer
short of the chisel bending and even the smallest one is very stiff. Is the
chisel well locked down? Is the carriage free of side play? Unless, of
course, what you are seeing is the stock itself moving.
OFWW
Oct 23, 2016, 6:04:00 PM10/23/16
to
On Sun, 23 Oct 2016 14:05:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
You are right, but here is the rest of the story. ;)
In looking at the square holes with glasses I noticed it was rounded
on the sides and only the corner was square. I pulled the bit out and
realized that the bit was bigger than the chisel at the opening. I
then looked at the other3/8 bit set and it too had a larger bit than
chisel opening. So I reinstalled it, grabbed a file and ran the
mortiser holding the file next to the chisel.
I made a hole about 1/2" deep and now had a square hole, fairly clean.
Pulled it apart and polished the chisel to a mirror finish and put
just the chisel in and went back to the same hole since the drill went
lower than the chisel. The polished chisel went in nice and smooth and
cleaned up the hole perfect. So I reassembled the bit and chisel,
repeated the whole process going through the 3/4" oak. Made a through
hole and measured from the top edge and bottom edge there was a 1/16"
drift, spun the chisel was the same I could see the chisel come
towards me as I applied increased pressure. :(
I am thinking that the bushing between the cast body and the chisel is
just too sloppy.
Per Dadioh's suggestion I ran just the bit and it bored straight
through on its own.
Going to see if I still have some shim stock around and make
measurements and hope I have something that fits. The last Mortiser I
had the shim fit in the body tightly but at this point I don't think I
can count on the casting bored hole for the Chisel being the same. If
I cannot find shim stock around in the garage I am just going to take
it all back and undo it.
I cannot imagine making cabinet door with the mortise's all off like
that.
In looking at the square holes with glasses I noticed it was rounded
on the sides and only the corner was square. I pulled the bit out and
realized that the bit was bigger than the chisel at the opening. I
then looked at the other3/8 bit set and it too had a larger bit than
chisel opening. So I reinstalled it, grabbed a file and ran the
mortiser holding the file next to the chisel.
I made a hole about 1/2" deep and now had a square hole, fairly clean.
Pulled it apart and polished the chisel to a mirror finish and put
just the chisel in and went back to the same hole since the drill went
lower than the chisel. The polished chisel went in nice and smooth and
cleaned up the hole perfect. So I reassembled the bit and chisel,
repeated the whole process going through the 3/4" oak. Made a through
hole and measured from the top edge and bottom edge there was a 1/16"
drift, spun the chisel was the same I could see the chisel come
towards me as I applied increased pressure. :(
I am thinking that the bushing between the cast body and the chisel is
just too sloppy.
Per Dadioh's suggestion I ran just the bit and it bored straight
through on its own.
Going to see if I still have some shim stock around and make
measurements and hope I have something that fits. The last Mortiser I
had the shim fit in the body tightly but at this point I don't think I
can count on the casting bored hole for the Chisel being the same. If
I cannot find shim stock around in the garage I am just going to take
it all back and undo it.
I cannot imagine making cabinet door with the mortise's all off like
that.
Leon
Oct 23, 2016, 6:20:25 PM10/23/16
to
good but it cost me too much time to make mortises that way.
And the primary reason that I switched to the Domino.
OFWW
Oct 23, 2016, 8:50:04 PM10/23/16
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On Sun, 23 Oct 2016 16:20:32 -0400, John McGaw <Nob...@Nowh.ere>
wrote:
In this particular case it ended up being the bushing the chisel fits
into. The bushing would fall out of the housing on its own if you were
to completely take out the hold down screw.
There is minimal play between the bushing and the chisel.
wrote:
into. The bushing would fall out of the housing on its own if you were
to completely take out the hold down screw.
There is minimal play between the bushing and the chisel.
OFWW
Oct 23, 2016, 9:05:09 PM10/23/16
to
On Sun, 23 Oct 2016 17:20:16 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
>> Going to see if I still have some shim stock around and make
>> measurements and hope I have something that fits. The last Mortiser I
>> had the spacer fit in the body tightly but at this point I don't think I
wrapped the spacer the spacer once trimmed and edged it, gently fed it
into the body casting. Re-assembled the bit and chisel, found one side
of the chisel still had a bit of the Bit cutting outside of the chisel
very slightly, ran a test hole and it straightened up quite a bit. It
is now less than 1/32" off. Might never have been noticeable had it
been this snug in the first place.
As to keeping it? ??Thinking.
wrote:
>> Going to see if I still have some shim stock around and make
>> measurements and hope I have something that fits. The last Mortiser I
>> can count on the casting bored hole for the Chisel being the same. If
>> I cannot find shim stock around in the garage I am just going to take
>> it all back and undo it.
>>
>> I cannot imagine making cabinet door with the mortise's all off like
>> that.
>>
>
>I have a Delta mortiser and used it a hand full of times. It cut pretty
>good but it cost me too much time to make mortises that way.
>And the primary reason that I switched to the Domino.
>
Couldn't find my shim stock, took a piece of my wife's alum foil,
>> I cannot find shim stock around in the garage I am just going to take
>> it all back and undo it.
>>
>> I cannot imagine making cabinet door with the mortise's all off like
>> that.
>>
>
>I have a Delta mortiser and used it a hand full of times. It cut pretty
>good but it cost me too much time to make mortises that way.
>And the primary reason that I switched to the Domino.
>
wrapped the spacer the spacer once trimmed and edged it, gently fed it
into the body casting. Re-assembled the bit and chisel, found one side
of the chisel still had a bit of the Bit cutting outside of the chisel
very slightly, ran a test hole and it straightened up quite a bit. It
is now less than 1/32" off. Might never have been noticeable had it
been this snug in the first place.
As to keeping it? ??Thinking.
Swingman
Oct 24, 2016, 11:30:44 AM10/24/16
to
On 10/22/2016 7:06 PM, OFWW wrote:
> When cutting/drilling a mortise is it normal for the chisel to follow
> the grain?
>
> When I was practicing on a 3/4" square piece on a through the board
> Mortise the chisel went in about 3/16" at the top and exited about
> 1/16 " from the same edge at the bottom. The grain slanted that way
> normally.
TL;DR the thread, but did you insure that the bit and table are
> the grain?
>
> When I was practicing on a 3/4" square piece on a through the board
> Mortise the chisel went in about 3/16" at the top and exited about
> 1/16 " from the same edge at the bottom. The grain slanted that way
> normally.
perpendicular?
The head and mechanism on the Chiwan products are not always attached
and/or made/assembled with precision.
--
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OFWW
Oct 24, 2016, 4:19:15 PM10/24/16
to
On Mon, 24 Oct 2016 10:30:20 -0500, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:
>On 10/22/2016 7:06 PM, OFWW wrote:
>> When cutting/drilling a mortise is it normal for the chisel to follow
>> the grain?
>>
>> When I was practicing on a 3/4" square piece on a through the board
>> Mortise the chisel went in about 3/16" at the top and exited about
>> 1/16 " from the same edge at the bottom. The grain slanted that way
>> normally.
>
>TL;DR the thread, but did you insure that the bit and table are
>perpendicular?
>
>The head and mechanism on the Chiwan products are not always attached
>and/or made/assembled with precision.
Yes, that was the first thing I checked on this last Mortiser. from
>On 10/22/2016 7:06 PM, OFWW wrote:
>> When cutting/drilling a mortise is it normal for the chisel to follow
>> the grain?
>>
>> When I was practicing on a 3/4" square piece on a through the board
>> Mortise the chisel went in about 3/16" at the top and exited about
>> 1/16 " from the same edge at the bottom. The grain slanted that way
>> normally.
>
>TL;DR the thread, but did you insure that the bit and table are
>perpendicular?
>
>The head and mechanism on the Chiwan products are not always attached
>and/or made/assembled with precision.
all angles. It was surprisingly vertical per my square. Even when
moving up and down, all four sides.
I cannot believe all the variations in problems between these three
Mortisers. These last two even had similar problems with the bit head
being slighly larger than the chisel.
dpb
Oct 24, 2016, 5:02:49 PM10/24/16
to
On 10/24/2016 3:19 PM, OFWW wrote:
...
> I cannot believe all the variations in problems between these three
> Mortisers. These last two even had similar problems with the bit head
> being slighly larger than the chisel.
That seems fairly frequent recently; I've seen some complaints that sets
from Woodcraft are showing the same symptoms...also to the point of
actually leaving rounded holes observable, not just a tiny amount...
...
> I cannot believe all the variations in problems between these three
> Mortisers. These last two even had similar problems with the bit head
> being slighly larger than the chisel.
from Woodcraft are showing the same symptoms...also to the point of
actually leaving rounded holes observable, not just a tiny amount...
OFWW
Oct 24, 2016, 10:21:43 PM10/24/16
to
actually spot on.
Thanks for the heads up on Woodcraft.
dpb
Oct 25, 2016, 10:34:05 AM10/25/16
to
On 10/24/2016 9:21 PM, OFWW wrote:
...
> Thanks for the heads up on Woodcraft.
They're one distributor need to be wary on...they're reputable
business-wise as far as not failing to deliver product or the like, but
much of their WoodRiver-branded product is just run 'o the mill import
stuff of only marginal quality ime...I've pretty much quit ordering any
of it.
You might want to at least consider
<http://www.woodcraft.com/product/861204/rikon-mortiser-with-dual-axis-table.aspx>
Reviews are mixed but for the price point the xy table is a
one-of-a-kind afaik in what's currently available. If, as demonstrated
by the effort put into the HF units, you're willing to do some tuneup,
you might just have a nice machine in the end. I think my primary
concern would be the 1/2 hp being weak for larger mortises in hardwoods.
Clearly, the chisel sets with it aren't to be expected to be much by
the reviews.
...
> Thanks for the heads up on Woodcraft.
business-wise as far as not failing to deliver product or the like, but
much of their WoodRiver-branded product is just run 'o the mill import
stuff of only marginal quality ime...I've pretty much quit ordering any
of it.
You might want to at least consider
<http://www.woodcraft.com/product/861204/rikon-mortiser-with-dual-axis-table.aspx>
Reviews are mixed but for the price point the xy table is a
one-of-a-kind afaik in what's currently available. If, as demonstrated
by the effort put into the HF units, you're willing to do some tuneup,
you might just have a nice machine in the end. I think my primary
concern would be the 1/2 hp being weak for larger mortises in hardwoods.
Clearly, the chisel sets with it aren't to be expected to be much by
the reviews.
Leon
Oct 25, 2016, 2:06:11 PM10/25/16
to
dpb
Oct 25, 2016, 5:53:28 PM10/25/16
to
On 10/25/2016 1:05 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 10/25/2016 9:33 AM, dpb wrote:
...
> On 10/25/2016 9:33 AM, dpb wrote:
>> You might want to at least consider
>>
>> <http://www.woodcraft.com/product/861204/rikon-mortiser-with-dual-axis-table.aspx>
>>
>>
>>
>> Reviews are mixed but for the price point the xy table is a
>
> I wonder if that big ole crank handle out in front gets in the way.
The table crank for the PM400 is even bigger; it's a three-legged one
> I wonder if that big ole crank handle out in front gets in the way.
similar to drill press crank and it's never been an issue. It's well
past what one can place on the table, at least unless one futzed around
and removed the fence entirely or somesuch...
I, at least, never even thought about it prior to your question... :)
Leon
Oct 25, 2016, 6:05:31 PM10/25/16
to
beside it rather than directly in front of the mortiser.
>
> I, at least, never even thought about it prior to your question... :)
Uh oh. ;~)
> I, at least, never even thought about it prior to your question... :)
dpb
Oct 25, 2016, 6:14:17 PM10/25/16
to
On 10/25/2016 5:05 PM, Leon wrote:
...
> ;~) My concern was more about personal comfort, having to perhaps stand
> beside it rather than directly in front of the mortiser.
Oh...for the Rikon from the spec page:
...
> ;~) My concern was more about personal comfort, having to perhaps stand
> beside it rather than directly in front of the mortiser.
- Table Movement Left to Right: 6-5/8"
- Table Movement Back to Front: 4"
So, the shaft length/wheel is only 6-8" or so...surely your arms are
longer than that? <vbg>
IOW, it appears a lot bigger than is in fact...
>> I, at least, never even thought about it prior to your question... :)
>
> Uh oh. ;~)
OFWW
Oct 25, 2016, 8:32:26 PM10/25/16
to
order to make a full stroke. If the table was centered you would hit
the crank or the table. 2nd problem, no hold down, third problem the
fences are both too short. I could see all sorts of potential problems
with that design.
A "General" Mortiser had a nice big base, bigger than most. very nice
back fence, front fence, poor, and the hold down was plastic, and it
too had a 3/4" shaft bushing. All the rest had 5/8" bushings for the
chisel shaft.
So unless, like you say, I can find some old iron I am totally bailing
out of that idea, and going to make a Jig that will make a mortise on
the end as well as the edge of a board, for floating Tenons, with glue
grooves. Home style.
dpb
Oct 26, 2016, 12:25:00 AM10/26/16
to
On 10/25/2016 7:32 PM, OFWW wrote:
...
> I just got back from WC, you have to crank the table to the left in
> order to make a full stroke. If the table was centered you would hit
> the crank or the table. 2nd problem, no hold down, third problem the
> fences are both too short. I could see all sorts of potential problems
> with that design.
Well, knew at the price it would have at least some issues; I've never
seen one in person as there's no supplier within 200+ mi here; just had
noticed them in the catalogs and thought was a possibility.
Good to know of some of the not-so-nice "features" if comes up with
someone else going forward...
> A "General" Mortiser had a nice big base, bigger than most. very nice
> back fence, front fence, poor, and the hold down was plastic, and it
> too had a 3/4" shaft bushing. All the rest had 5/8" bushings for the
> chisel shaft.
You can always shim down; not the other direction. The larger diameter
chisels are more expensive but they're also stouter which is
_a_good_thing_(tm)_ ... :)
> So unless, like you say, I can find some old iron ...
I don't know of any available at the moment on that front, sorry...
Oh, wait~~you said were going to make doors, right? How about
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/Maka-3-Head-Horizontal-Chisel-Mortiser-for-8-Foot-Doors-RDB5-Rebuilt-Heads-/351052136103?hash=item51bc567ea7:g:FssAAOxylpNTUY5P>
<gd&r>
...
> I just got back from WC, you have to crank the table to the left in
> order to make a full stroke. If the table was centered you would hit
> the crank or the table. 2nd problem, no hold down, third problem the
> fences are both too short. I could see all sorts of potential problems
> with that design.
seen one in person as there's no supplier within 200+ mi here; just had
noticed them in the catalogs and thought was a possibility.
Good to know of some of the not-so-nice "features" if comes up with
someone else going forward...
> A "General" Mortiser had a nice big base, bigger than most. very nice
> back fence, front fence, poor, and the hold down was plastic, and it
> too had a 3/4" shaft bushing. All the rest had 5/8" bushings for the
> chisel shaft.
chisels are more expensive but they're also stouter which is
_a_good_thing_(tm)_ ... :)
> So unless, like you say, I can find some old iron ...
I don't know of any available at the moment on that front, sorry...
Oh, wait~~you said were going to make doors, right? How about
<http://www.ebay.com/itm/Maka-3-Head-Horizontal-Chisel-Mortiser-for-8-Foot-Doors-RDB5-Rebuilt-Heads-/351052136103?hash=item51bc567ea7:g:FssAAOxylpNTUY5P>
<gd&r>
OFWW
Oct 26, 2016, 1:44:27 PM10/26/16
to
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