Copy of letter sent to Remodeling Contractor

[OFWW]

Hi Al,

Thank you for your truly eye opening information regarding the quote
request, and your attached remodeling cost averages pdf.

I had a contractor friend back east suggest when I first mentioned
what I needed, that I could save money in the living room by buying a
Festool Track Saw and cut the engineered flooring myself, I thought he
was kidding me. I have another friend who builds high end cabinets,
and furniture, who says a Festool Domino tool is the greatest thing
since sliced cheese for joining wood, and way faster than making
mortise and tenon joints. Yeah, I though, nice, but a high priced tool
that since I won’t be making production runs on cabinets just seemed
like it was out of line for my purposes, with no real ROI.

Then I saw the average major kitchen upgrade cost 54,000 dollars. I
already have the tools needed for the cabinets and stuff, plus I
bought cabinet grade plus wood and high quality wood for the face
frames. I also purchased high end sliders for all the drawers and
shelves for the cabinets as well and my total material cost was around
2,000 dollars.

The way I figure it, your kitchen upgrade figures of $54,000.00 just
allowed me to buy all the Festool Tools I dreamed about, plus a CNC
machine to make some rather fancy door’s, molding with enough money
left over to upgrade some of the major tools in my garage. I am now
able to justify the costs to my wife and I would still be saving major
money for the total cost of the job.

So in the end your eye opening quote and attachment has been quite
beneficial to me.

When time comes for you to retire I am sure you will be a very happy
man, may you live long enough to enjoy it all.

Regards,
Xxxxx Xxxxxx

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Al Xxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2016 2:23 PM
To: XXXXXXXX.com
Cc: XXXXXXXX.com
Subject: construction costs

Hi Xxxxx, I wanted to get back to you as soon as I could check on some
historical numbers that I have. I have attached a copy of a national
cost average for different types of additions and construction. I
categorized your project as a family room addition. You can see that
the national average for a mid-range family room is $80,765. It is
even more expensive on the West coast, ($95,529).

That doesn’t even include the division of the existing living room
into a bedroom and office and also the kitchen remodel. If you had
called me and asked what I would use as a cost for room additions, I
would have said use $250.00/SF as a beginning cost and it might go up
or down from there. Your proposed addition of 18.5’ x 16.5’ comes to
about 305 SF. If I multiplied that by $250 it comes to $76,250 which
is close to the national average.

Unfortunately your budget of Under $20,000 doesn’t get us very close
to what it is going to cost. I’m sorry about the news but I wanted to
get it to you as soon as possible. Thank you for contacting us and we
wish you the best of luck.

Sincerely,

Al Xxxxxx

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What a way to estimate costs?

I think he would have been far better off to say something like the
job was smaller than he would like to take on or something similar.

I already had one that thought it wasn't worth his while, in so many
words, and wasn't interested.

I could pay someone to draft it up with an engineers stamp on it and
GC it all myself, doing all the electrical, and the water line myself,
but I would like to get it cranked out faster using someone active in
the trades. IYKWIM.

[Leon]

;~)

[Swingman]

On 8/20/2016 1:32 PM, OFWW wrote:

> From: Al Xxxxxxx
> Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2016 2:23 PM
> To: XXXXXXXX.com
> Cc: XXXXXXXX.com
> Subject: construction costs

> That doesn’t even include the division of the existing living room
> into a bedroom and office and also the kitchen remodel. If you had
> called me and asked what I would use as a cost for room additions, I
> would have said use $250.00/SF as a beginning cost and it might go up
> or down from there. Your proposed addition of 18.5’ x 16.5’ comes to
> about 305 SF. If I multiplied that by $250 it comes to $76,250 which
> is close to the national average.

Common practice when asked to give a _preliminary_ estimate is for the
bidder to make an educated estimate/guess based on what it has
historically cost _him_ to do similar jobs ... <emphasis on the
_informed_ aspect of giving a "preliminary" estimate>.

Then, IF it is established by the customer to be roughly within their
budget, both the customer and the contractor will ideally work together
to refine a "contract price".

IOW, a contract price that is based on the specifications required by
both parties (IOW, containing elements such as cost of code compliance,
materials and labor by the contractor; and degree of trim, fit and
finish, etc., desired by the customer, and within his budget).

Not all potential clients will provide their ideal budget figures
upfront; and not all bidders/contractors are dedicated enough to
maintain the type of historical data to give a realistic "preliminary
estimate", so, as you have experienced, they will use some internet
generated figures to suss out the potential client's budget.

It is also a common practice for contractors to bid unreasonably high on
jobs they don't really want to do, hoping they don't get the bid, and,
if they do, that the high figure will make it worth their while

Either party finding themselves in the scenario in the last two
paragraphs should probably decline to participate further.

Personally, I stay far away from those scenarios, as they have proven to
be a waste of time for all involved.

One of the biggest time savers for all involved is for the client to be
upfront about budget considerations. The contractor can than tailor a
realistic bid that will illustrate what the client can expect for that
amount he can afford to spend.

Nutshell: the contractor did you a favor by telegraphing his business
philosophy (i.e, an obvious lack of historical data/experience) upfront,
making any followup a waste of your time.

While all the above may be obvious, surprising how many don't understand
the process ... probably because it is not covered on DIY cable shows by
reality TV contractors with cute buns/tits. ;)

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

[Unquestionably Confused]

On 8/21/2016 10:15 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 8/20/2016 1:32 PM, OFWW wrote:
>

[skip]

> Nutshell: the contractor did you a favor by telegraphing his business
> philosophy (i.e, an obvious lack of historical data/experience) upfront,
> making any followup a waste of your time.
>
> While all the above may be obvious, surprising how many don't understand
> the process ... probably because it is not covered on DIY cable shows by
> reality TV contractors with cute buns/tits. ;)
>

Let's not get too carried away here, Karl. I can think of one or two of
those "contractors" who could do my kitchen, er, or DO me in my kitchen! ;)

[krw]

Are you two talking about Drew and Jonathan Scott[*]? ;-)


[*] SWMBO is an HGTV junky.

[Unquestionably Confused]

On 8/21/2016 10:57 AM, krw wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 10:41:20 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
> <puzz...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>

[snip]

>>> While all the above may be obvious, surprising how many don't understand
>>> the process ... probably because it is not covered on DIY cable shows by
>>> reality TV contractors with cute buns/tits. ;)
>
>>
>>
>> Let's not get too carried away here, Karl. I can think of one or two of
>> those "contractors" who could do my kitchen, er, or DO me in my kitchen! ;)
>>
> Are you two talking about Drew and Jonathan Scott[*]? ;-)

Ah, that would be NO! I was thinking more along the lines of Alison
Victoria on "Kitchen Crashers"

> [*] SWMBO is an HGTV junky.

So is mine. We also have a 8 yr old granddaughter who watches a number
of the shows religiously. She keeps an active schedule but she has them
DVR'd so she doesn't miss anything.

Good shows with great ideas. I wonder just how many folks get the
underlying meaning: "You can do amazing things if you're handy with a
checkbook!" ;)

[Trenbidia]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 16:16:43 +0000, Nicholas Holloway wrote:

> I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard stupid.


Haven't seen a good troll in a long time. This one comes to us via
Romania and Finland.

--
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[graham]

Not only that but the average person has no idea of the cost of doing
business. My professional organisation reckons that labour costs should
be charged out at 2.5 to 2.7 times base salary. When I ran a small
company, I went through the exercise from scratch and damn me, it came
out within that range.
Graham

[OFWW]

I understand fully what you are saying, I appreciate adults who can
say they aren't interested in the little Jobs, etc. I told them up
front per the phone the scope of work needed, square footage, etc.

When I spoke to them here at the jobsite, I laid it out again, with
the drawings. After going over them I was surprised at the time that
they took no measurements, didn't look at the electrical panel
location, only showing in interest in the bearing wall in the center
of the house looking back from the roof line.

Then when I saw what he wrote I understood why he showed such little
interest in the jobsite.

Having worked with many residential contractors in my early years,
migrating to Comm'l, Industrial in my later years, plus architect's,
engineers, etc. I am pretty familiar with the processes.

Unfortunately I have been retired too long and not kept track with
some of the people, and the ones from my early years which would be
the most beneficial to me know are long since dead or retired. :(

Seems odd, but the very first person I contacted seems to be the best
suited to the Job, and he said I should get two other rough estimates
first. I have done that and now going to call him up to get moving on
the jobs. I only wish that some of the men I did business with in the
past were still around. I know that I could act as a GC, but that
would require already knowing the subs and who is reliable, does good
work, and who isn't. I don't have time for that.

What you wrote is fine advice, and I recommend that anyone reading
this thread pay attention to it, especially if they didn't work in the
trades themselves.

Thanks, Swingman.

[OFWW]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 11:27:31 -0500, Unquestionably Confused

Those kinds of shows have given my wife some understanding of it all,
some. Makes it easier for me to explain the realities of it all.

[OFWW]

I've always gone another route, various, but the bottom line after all
is said and done. Overhead is going to cost 42%

Even when you bid against non-union companies many of whom screw their
employee's. And no, I am not against non union companies, just against
the guy who works in the trades for a few years and thinks he knows it
all and that he is getting ripped off if he is getting paid 30 bucks n
hour, and the company charges 65 to 70 (old, old scales)

So he starts his own business, no license, a personal truck, the most
basic of tools, and starts underbidding jobs because he doesn't know
any better, little by little they learn about insurance costs, and so
one, but they seldom go much beyond a year in the biz. Yet we would
have to compete against them on small jobs.

Life is fun.

[OFWW]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 16:16:43 +0000, Nicholas Holloway

<nihdfaa9ed1216d6...@example.com> wrote:

>replying to OFWW, Nicholas Holloway wrote:
>> "Unfortunately your budget of Under $20,000 doesn?t get us very close to what it is going to cost."
>
>You expected to have a 18.5? x 16.5? addition built for LESS than $20K? ARE YOU SHITTING ME RIGHT NOW?
>
>I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard stupid. Dehydrated-rock-hard stupid. Stupid so stupid
>that it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole different dimension of stupid. You are trans-stupid stupid.
>Meta-stupid. Stupid collapsed in on itself so far that even the neutrons have collapsed. Stupid gotten so dense that no
>intellect can escape, kind of stupid. Singularity stupid. Blazing hot mid-day sun on the warm side of Mercury stupid.
>You emit more stupid in one second than our whole galaxy emits in a year. Quasar stupid. Your writing has to be a troll.
>Nothing in our universe can really be this stupid. Perhaps this is some primordial fragment from the original big-bang
>of stupid. Some pure essence of stupid so uncontaminated by anything else as to be beyond the laws of physics that we
>know. I'm sorry, I can't go on. This is an epiphany of stupid for me.

Ahh, the troll of the group.

I have already had quotes all under 15 grand.

I know I can have a full house built for 130K but thanks for sharing
your ignorance.

You are the reason I hesitated in posting this. Small wonder that the
toilets in your home have only half a seat.

[OFWW]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 16:16:43 +0000, Nicholas Holloway
<nihdfaa9ed1216d6...@example.com> wrote:

>replying to OFWW, Nicholas Holloway wrote:
>> "Unfortunately your budget of Under $20,000 doesn?t get us very close to what it is going to cost."
>
>You expected to have a 18.5? x 16.5? addition built for LESS than $20K? ARE YOU SHITTING ME RIGHT NOW?
>
>I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard stupid. Dehydrated-rock-hard stupid. Stupid so stupid
>that it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole different dimension of stupid. You are trans-stupid stupid.
>Meta-stupid. Stupid collapsed in on itself so far that even the neutrons have collapsed. Stupid gotten so dense that no
>intellect can escape, kind of stupid. Singularity stupid. Blazing hot mid-day sun on the warm side of Mercury stupid.
>You emit more stupid in one second than our whole galaxy emits in a year. Quasar stupid. Your writing has to be a troll.
>Nothing in our universe can really be this stupid. Perhaps this is some primordial fragment from the original big-bang
>of stupid. Some pure essence of stupid so uncontaminated by anything else as to be beyond the laws of physics that we
>know. I'm sorry, I can't go on. This is an epiphany of stupid for me.

Posting
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Obviously the HOH are liars with the policies and they were not given
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[Funstuff]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 16:16:43 +0000, Nicholas Holloway
<nihdfaa9ed1216d6...@example.com> wrote:

>Path: not-for-mail
>From: Nicholas Holloway <nihdfaa9ed1216d6...@example.com>
>Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
>Subject: Re: Copy of letter sent to Remodeling Contractor
>Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2016 16:16:43 +0000
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>
>replying to the love of his life, ANON Troll Nicholas Holloway wrote:
>> "Unfortunately your budget of Under $20,000 doesn?t get us very close to what it is going to cost."
>
>You expected to have a 18.5? x 16.5? addition built for LESS than $20K? ARE YOU SHITTING ME RIGHT NOW?
>
>I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard stupid. Dehydrated-rock-hard stupid. Stupid so stupid
>that it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole different dimension of stupid. You are trans-stupid stupid.
>Meta-stupid. Stupid collapsed in on itself so far that even the neutrons have collapsed. Stupid gotten so dense that no
>intellect can escape, kind of stupid. Singularity stupid. Blazing hot mid-day sun on the warm side of Mercury stupid.
>You emit more stupid in one second than our whole galaxy emits in a year. Quasar stupid. Your writing has to be a troll.
>Nothing in our universe can really be this stupid. Perhaps this is some primordial fragment from the original big-bang
>of stupid. Some pure essence of stupid so uncontaminated by anything else as to be beyond the laws of physics that we
>know. I'm sorry, I can't go on. This is an epiphany of stupid for me.
>

>for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/woodworking/copy-of-letter-sent-to-remodeling-contractor-800574-.htm


Whois shows they're using an anonymizing service located in Panama,
which a
legitimate company would not do.

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Trolling top to bottom.

[-MIKE-]

Not to tag on with a "troller," but if you've had quotes for under 15
grand, then either those people are not making any money on that project
or I would not want to stand under that roof for any amount of time.

I would venture to guess that material for an addition of that size
would be close to 15 grand. I built an outbuilding 20x24 and material
was close to 9 grand, with no insulation, electrical, plumbing, or
interior drywall.

Good luck on that 15 grand addition. Hopefully the illegals working on
it don't get injured on the job and take your retirement fund.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[krw]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 11:27:31 -0500, Unquestionably Confused

<puzz...@ameritech.net> wrote:

>On 8/21/2016 10:57 AM, krw wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 10:41:20 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
>> <puzz...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>>
>
>
>[snip]
>
>>>> While all the above may be obvious, surprising how many don't understand
>>>> the process ... probably because it is not covered on DIY cable shows by
>>>> reality TV contractors with cute buns/tits. ;)
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Let's not get too carried away here, Karl. I can think of one or two of
>>> those "contractors" who could do my kitchen, er, or DO me in my kitchen! ;)
>>>
>> Are you two talking about Drew and Jonathan Scott[*]? ;-)
>
>Ah, that would be NO! I was thinking more along the lines of Alison
>Victoria on "Kitchen Crashers"
>
>> [*] SWMBO is an HGTV junky.
>
>So is mine. We also have a 8 yr old granddaughter who watches a number
>of the shows religiously. She keeps an active schedule but she has them
>DVR'd so she doesn't miss anything.

Ditto. Since the Olympics have been on, I've about OD'd on HGTV,
though. The one show I do like is Fixer-Upper, I think it is. Chip
is funny as hell.

>
>Good shows with great ideas. I wonder just how many folks get the
>underlying meaning: "You can do amazing things if you're handy with a
>checkbook!" ;)

Lotsa great ideas but I don't have the eye and I don't go for the
furnished job, right down to the color of the napkins. I already have
furniture I like (some very nice). I'd like to see them keep closer
to the real world.

[Unquestionably Confused]

On 8/21/2016 4:07 PM, OFWW wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 16:16:43 +0000, Nicholas Holloway
> <nihdfaa9ed1216d6...@example.com> wrote:
>
>> replying to OFWW, Nicholas Holloway wrote:
>>> "Unfortunately your budget of Under $20,000 doesn?t get us very close to what it is going to cost."
>>
>> You expected to have a 18.5? x 16.5? addition built for LESS than $20K? ARE YOU SHITTING ME RIGHT NOW?
>>

[snip]

> As an example and not a limitation, you agree that you will not use
> this Service to
> post obscene, defamatory or otherwise inappropriate Content
> harass, stalk, threathen or otherwise violate legal rights of others
> impersonate other persons or entities
> knowingly provide instructional information designed to promote
> physical harm or injury
>
> Obviously the HOH are liars with the policies and they were not given
> the right to repost any of this. Especially from a troll like you.
>

OTOH, they may have a perverse sense of humor and just wanted to allow
MISS Holloway the opportunity to make a complete ass of herself. She
succeeded and they (and we) are!

Does make you wonder why Mrs. Holloway chose to keep the afterbirth and
86 the child, doesn't it?

;)

[Unquestionably Confused]

On 8/21/2016 5:59 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 11:27:31 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
> <puzz...@ameritech.net> wrote:

[snip}

>>
>> So is mine. We also have a 8 yr old granddaughter who watches a
>> number of the shows religiously. She keeps an active schedule but
>> she has them DVR'd so she doesn't miss anything.
>
> Ditto. Since the Olympics have been on, I've about OD'd on HGTV,
> though. The one show I do like is Fixer-Upper, I think it is. Chip
> is funny as hell.
>>
>> Good shows with great ideas. I wonder just how many folks get the
>> underlying meaning: "You can do amazing things if you're handy
>> with a checkbook!" ;)
>
> Lotsa great ideas but I don't have the eye and I don't go for the
> furnished job, right down to the color of the napkins. I already
> have furniture I like (some very nice). I'd like to see them keep
> closer to the real world.

+1 for Fixer Upper. Chip is a few fries short of a Happy Meal at times
but between the two of them they certainly can turn a sow's ear into a
silk purse. Joanna has some great ideas and really knows how to put the
frosting on the cake with her sense of style. I don't think that I've
ever seen a job that they tackled that didn't turn out first rate and
they've started with more than a few I would have approached with a
Caterpillar or a match and jug of gasoline.

[Larry Blanchtard]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 17:25:08 +0000 (UTC), Trenbidia wrote:

> Haven't seen a good troll in a long time. This one comes to us via
> Romania and Finland.

Wear your learning, like your watch, in a private pocket, and do not
pull it out and strike it merely to show you have one. If you are asked
what o'clock it is, tell it, but do not proclaim it hourly and unasked,
like the watchman. -Lord Chesterfield

--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.

[krw]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2016 03:21:39 +0300, Larry Blanchtard
<lbla...@slowmail.am> wrote:

>When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
>carrying a cross.

No, as odd as it sounds, it looks like it'll be riding on a donkey,
wearing a rainbow flag with a crescent moon on it.

[Unknown]

OFWW <ofww1...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:7q3krbhqt4lghj856...@4ax.com:

> On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 16:16:43 +0000, Nicholas Holloway
> <nihdfaa9ed1216d6...@example.com> wrote:

*trim: A boring series of adjectives deliniated by the word stupid.*

>
> Ahh, the troll of the group.
>
> I have already had quotes all under 15 grand.
>
> I know I can have a full house built for 130K but thanks for sharing
> your ignorance.
>
> You are the reason I hesitated in posting this. Small wonder that the
> toilets in your home have only half a seat.

Don't let that guy bother you... In the words of a famous Jedi "The
ability to speak does not make you intelligent."

But do keep the good insults coming. I enjoy creative insults.

Ever read the Avril Lavigne article on Uncylopedia? If you like creative
insults, it's a good place to start. (Check out Hydrogen while you're at
it. Not full of insults, but still a good read.)

Puckdropper

[OFWW]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 17:19:18 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
wrote:

>Not to tag on with a "troller," but if you've had quotes for under 15
>grand, then either those people are not making any money on that project
>or I would not want to stand under that roof for any amount of time.
>
>I would venture to guess that material for an addition of that size
>would be close to 15 grand. I built an outbuilding 20x24 and material
>was close to 9 grand, with no insulation, electrical, plumbing, or
>interior drywall.
>
>Good luck on that 15 grand addition. Hopefully the illegals working on
>it don't get injured on the job and take your retirement fund.

My addition has three walls to frame, existing exterior wall only
requires closing the window. is 16.5 X 18.5, requires no interior
plumbing, electrical is 125 per circuit, plus front door and entry
way.

Given your outbldg size less than 1.5K would insulate and drywall it,
material costs, so as a guesstimate based on your figures the total
material cost for my extension should be less than yours, including
electrical as no sub panel is needed.

In any event I emailed the original contractor so we could finalize
the figures. So I should know within a couple weeks.

No one will be working at this property without insurance.

[Swingman]

On 8/22/2016 12:07 PM, OFWW wrote:
> My addition has three walls to frame, existing exterior wall only
> requires closing the window. is 16.5 X 18.5, requires no interior
> plumbing, electrical is 125 per circuit, plus front door and entry
> way.

Foundation and roof tie-in?

[-MIKE-]

You're leaving a lot out. Good luck with that.

[nailsh...@aol.com]

On Sunday, August 21, 2016 at 10:16:02 AM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:

> Common practice when asked to give a _preliminary_ estimate is for the
> bidder to make an educated estimate/guess based on what it has
> historically cost _him_ to do similar jobs ... <emphasis on the
> _informed_ aspect of giving a "preliminary" estimate>.

Well said, as usual.

> Then, IF it is established by the customer to be roughly within their
> budget, both the customer and the contractor will ideally work together
> to refine a "contract price".

I will give a "cigar" estimate (the time it takes me to smoke a good cigar) to educate a client on what to begin to understand what they can expect on a remodel/addition, but quit after that. I try to manage expectations and discourage the "hey, we'll work together to make this happen attitude". We are partners in a way until the contract is signed, then I am a service provider with a clearly defined task.

> IOW, a contract price that is based on the specifications required by
> both parties (IOW, containing elements such as cost of code compliance,
> materials and labor by the contractor; and degree of trim, fit and
> finish, etc., desired by the customer, and within his budget).

Without specs and a <<detailed>> scope of work, there is no project. I have been sued (unsuccessfully) and have had my reports and findings used in more than a few court cases when I have provided inspections and opinions for attorneys and their clients. The upshot of those experiences is the mandatory requirement that all work be specified as closely as possible in writing on the contract.

These days, with all the DIY experts, the YouTube experts, This Old House experts, the Google experts, and on an on and on... I make sure sure that the client understands my contract completely before they sign. I don't listen to second guessing once the starter gun is fired and we are off. It is my responsibility to make sure the client understands completely how the whole process works before we start, and since my entire business is referral (and has been for decades)I need happy clients that have carefully managed expectations. This all plays into what you are saying, Karl.

> Not all potential clients will provide their ideal budget figures
> upfront; and not all bidders/contractors are dedicated enough to
> maintain the type of historical data to give a realistic "preliminary
> estimate", so, as you have experienced, they will use some internet
> generated figures to suss out the potential client's budget.

NO, they dont'. They will happily waste your time, effort and talent getting and estimate, getting an education, and learning about the business in general. Their project is something they are "looking into", sometimes in the most lazy way. I know it sounds arrogant, but I no longer meet with people on the weekend or in the evenings unless I feel some kind of commitment. I don't want to go a client's house on a Saturday while they are drinking beer, shuttling kids around, taking care of weekend chores, etc.

I use the same reasoning I used when training loan officers to sell money. If they won't take off an hour or two early from work to borrow $250,000 for a mortgage loan, just how serious can they be? How much respect for you as a professional do they have for you if they only want you talk to them when they only have time when it is completely convenient and comfortable for them, when they have nothing else of greater importance to do?

>
> It is also a common practice for contractors to bid unreasonably high on
> jobs they don't really want to do, hoping they don't get the bid, and,
> if they do, that the high figure will make it worth their while

For me, this usually has more to do with the client than the work itself. If I think they will be a PITA, I do charge more if I think they will need more hand holding. When client can't figure out why I don't do things like Joe Silva or the Property Brothers (and then lecture/educate me from their TV experience), or they are calling to make sure I didn't let the dog out, or asking me and my guys to unload fertilizer, and on a on... sure they get a higher price. OTOH, if they turn out to be just fine, I wind up giving those folks as much as I can off the cuff.

> While all the above may be obvious, surprising how many don't understand
> the process ... probably because it is not covered on DIY cable shows by
> reality TV contractors with cute buns/tits. ;)

Preach it, Karl! On the other hand, I have had some unintended results from the DIY group. I have about 3 or 4 clients a year that have all sizes of projects they have contracted themselves that fail. When they get my name from my referral net, they are usually so pissed off at ALL contractors that they leave me alone and let me work. They are usually very relieved and pleased when I take care of them, and glad it is all over. Many of those people become long time customers.

No matter, I still get fooled. I recently spent about 40 or so hours helping a prospective client define his thoughts and the scope of work on about a $150K remodel. He told me he was going to use me to do most of the work, and to provide overall supervision on the job. He changed his mind after he got my typed scope of work, and decided to do it himself. 40 hours gone. I don't get all the work I bid on, and don't expect to. But I would have never spent that kind of time with him had he been honest with me and told me that he might try to do it himself. With my road map, he decided to take the plunge.

However, my fellow contractors are providing a great education for him. The paint contractor he wanted to hire (and had a handshake agreement with) decided to take a better paying job that will give him work until mid November. The flooring guy that removed and replaced about 2500sq ft of brand new Brazilian cherry flooring wouldn't wait for him, so he has new floors in a house that isn't painted, the walls haven't been moved, and walls/trims/cabinets haven't been prepped and painted. The granite top guys are coming out, but without his painter, they will be installing new tops on cabinets that are to be refinished in place. The cabinets have all new hardware, hinges, slides, and other hardware and they haven't finalized a paint color.

More education will be coming for him, no doubt. He is now 2 months behind the original schedule (that's right... two) and is hoping to finish the work by November 1st. He feels this could be done and they will probably make it since he cut the scope of work literally by 50% from what we planned together.

I am not "bagging" on anyone that contracts for themselves. I have a lot of clients that take on smaller projects all the time with great success. They pay the right amount, get a good job, etc. The complaint I hear the most from them is that they can't get the contractors to finish 100%.

This subject just hit a hot spot with me and I thought I would chime in with a look from the other side of the fence.

Robert

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 8/23/2016 2:25 AM, nailsh...@aol.com wrote:

> I am not "bagging" on anyone that contracts for themselves. I have a lot of clients that take on smaller projects all the time with great success. They pay the right amount, get a good job, etc. The complaint I hear the most from them is that they can't get the contractors to finish 100%.
>
> This subject just hit a hot spot with me and I thought I would chime in with a look from the other side of the fence.
>
> Robert
>

I recently did two bathroom remodels. I thought about contracting it
myself but know someone that does that sort of work. He probably saved
me $thousands and got me top quality work. I also saved by going to the
local plumbing supply for better price and quality than the big orange
or blue stores.

He has 25 years of doing this so by now knows who to call. I would have
spend many hours just trying to find out the best tile guy, plumber,
etc. I know enough to avoid the big ads in the Yellow Pages.

Oh, paying cash helps too.

[Swingman]

On 8/23/2016 1:29 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

> He has 25 years of doing this so by now knows who to call. I would have
> spend many hours just trying to find out the best tile guy, plumber,
> etc. I know enough to avoid the big ads in the Yellow Pages.

Had to work out of state a couple of times, and working outside the
reach of your proven subs and tradesman can be tough on the budget,
particularly if you generally work in a large urban area.

That's the time when two guys, who can do it all, or most all of it,
really shines.

... and long as both of them are still relatively young, that is.

[OFWW]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2016 16:10:54 -0500, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:

>On 8/22/2016 12:07 PM, OFWW wrote:
>> My addition has three walls to frame, existing exterior wall only
>> requires closing the window. is 16.5 X 18.5, requires no interior
>> plumbing, electrical is 125 per circuit, plus front door and entry
>> way.
>
>Foundation and roof tie-in?

That was the scope, or part of it.

The contractor was just out here today to start finalizing the job.

Turns out that He did not email me the Spreadsheet for the extension,
roof, walls, foundation. He only sent me the one that was for the room
division or the existing living room into a bedroom and den. The first
part of the project. That was for 11 to 13K.

Today he said the total job would be slightly less than 40K so he is
going to write her up, and be back in a few days. His price is in the
lower section of the bids still. So we'll see soon enough. If I were
younger I could do it all, but, I would be working too which would
make it impossible for me to do in a timely fashion. He has an
engineer He works with who draws up the prints and the load calc's for
the roof.

[OFWW]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2016 21:02:21 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
wrote:

>On 8/22/16 12:07 PM, OFWW wrote:
>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2016 17:19:18 -0500, -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Not to tag on with a "troller," but if you've had quotes for under 15
>>> grand, then either those people are not making any money on that project
>>> or I would not want to stand under that roof for any amount of time.
>>>
>>> I would venture to guess that material for an addition of that size
>>> would be close to 15 grand. I built an outbuilding 20x24 and material
>>> was close to 9 grand, with no insulation, electrical, plumbing, or
>>> interior drywall.
>>>
>>> Good luck on that 15 grand addition. Hopefully the illegals working on
>>> it don't get injured on the job and take your retirement fund.
>>
>> My addition has three walls to frame, existing exterior wall only
>> requires closing the window. is 16.5 X 18.5, requires no interior
>> plumbing, electrical is 125 per circuit, plus front door and entry
>> way.
>>
>> Given your outbldg size less than 1.5K would insulate and drywall it,
>> material costs, so as a guesstimate based on your figures the total
>> material cost for my extension should be less than yours, including
>> electrical as no sub panel is needed.
>>
>> In any event I emailed the original contractor so we could finalize
>> the figures. So I should know within a couple weeks.
>>
>> No one will be working at this property without insurance.
>>
>
>You're leaving a lot out. Good luck with that.

I can't cite everything it would be boring for most people. Our phones
and Tv's, computers, are all wireless, no wet bar in the LR, just a
middle class home in So. Cal. Stucco on the outside, with bricks on
the lower part of the walls in the front.

New price is slightly less than 40, his spreadsheet only included
costs for the existing LR mods. Includes relocating kitchen plumbing a
few feet. I could send up a floor plan to the other ng, but with the
troll clown about I don't need the aggravation. His "karma" is going
to be costly when it hits him.

[Swingman]

There you go ... off the top of my head that's roughly $130sf, which is
in the ballpark for my home grown spreadsheets I use for calculating and
bidding, which contain historical data from dozens of jobs, from new
residential construction, to bath and kitchen remodels, as well as
siding jobs.

Sounds like you are on the right track at this point.

[-MIKE-]

40grand is much more in line with what I'd expect from a reputable
builder using legal hiring practices.

[no...@none.com]

On Thu, 25 Aug 2016 15:23:43 +0000, "SWMBO"
<I.GOT.T...@I.MAKE.THE.RULES> wrote:

So now you are claiming to be bi-sexual too?
Did Mr Woody change your mind?