Soft close hinge question

[Leon]

I have a client that wants a wall of garage cabinets.
There will be 2 doors that will each be 21" wide and 90" tall.
Additionally there will be 6 doors that will be 18" by 25" tall.

With that in mind I am giving him 2 options for types of doors, solid
panel 3/4" thick water resistant MDF or 3/4" thick poplar frame and
1/4" paint grade panels.

He wants soft close hinges, Euro style.

I will likely have 4 hinges on each of the large doors and 2 one the
smaller doors.

1. Do buy all soft close hinges or only 1 soft close hinge mixed with a
standard appropriate hinge?

2. Use standard hinges and add the soft close "add on" unit to each door.

[hub...@ccanoemail.com]

What operating range ? <110 degree only for integral soft close ? >
If you want a 120 or 180 degree range - the soft close damper is
separate option and clips onto the hinge .. or dampers are available
as stand-alone - to be used with any springed hinge.
I would go with clip-on - then you can add or remove - to suit the
spring pressure of the various doors.
John T.



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[dpb]

Should be rating by weight from manufacturer, Leon?

For the big 'uns I get roughly 35-40 lb/door which is substantial if go MDF.

I'd suggest unless there's something in these 90" cabinets that is
actually 7-ft long (which I suppose is possible if is planning on
hanging yard tools behind doors which personally I think is a mistake,
too :) ) he'll rue the decision down the road...but that's not the
question asked...

--

[Swingman]

On 3/4/2016 9:13 AM, Leon wrote:

> I will likely have 4 hinges on each of the large doors and 2 one the
> smaller doors.

Except for 3-8 doors or ones that extraordinarily heavy, I rarely use
more than 3 hinges on any door.

IME, and particularly with cabinets doors, it is rarely necessary, and
you will find adjusting the alignment of four euro hinges for smooth
operation over a long length can be problematic if there is even the
slightest lack of flatness, which is not unusual with taller doors over
time.

AAMOF, a couple of times I've had to remove a hinge completely, and plug
the cup hole, to get a door to work properly.

Then again, if you feel the need, and it works, go with your gut.

> 1. Do buy all soft close hinges or only 1 soft close hinge mixed with a
> standard appropriate hinge?

IME, they all need to be the same. Insuring all hinges are the same
type, make and model is paramount for a smooth, lasting operation.

> 2. Use standard hinges and add the soft close "add on" unit to each door.

I'll choose a high quality, built-in soft close, hinge over an "add on"
part every time ... more points of failure, higher possibility for call
backs.

YMMV ... and as long as it works, and the client is happy...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

[Leon]

On 3/4/2016 9:45 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 03/04/2016 9:13 AM, Leon wrote:
>> I have a client that wants a wall of garage cabinets.
>> There will be 2 doors that will each be 21" wide and 90" tall.
>> Additionally there will be 6 doors that will be 18" by 25" tall.
>>
>> With that in mind I am giving him 2 options for types of doors, solid
>> panel 3/4" thick water resistant MDF or 3/4" thick poplar frame and 1/4"
>> paint grade panels.
>>
>> He wants soft close hinges, Euro style.
>>
>> I will likely have 4 hinges on each of the large doors and 2 one the
>> smaller doors.
>>
>> 1. Do buy all soft close hinges or only 1 soft close hinge mixed with a
>> standard appropriate hinge?
>>
>> 2. Use standard hinges and add the soft close "add on" unit to each door.
>
> Should be rating by weight from manufacturer, Leon?

I should probably check in to that on the web site. ;~)

>
> For the big 'uns I get roughly 35-40 lb/door which is substantial if go
> MDF.
>
> I'd suggest unless there's something in these 90" cabinets that is
> actually 7-ft long (which I suppose is possible if is planning on
> hanging yard tools behind doors which personally I think is a mistake,
> too :) ) he'll rue the decision down the road...but that's not the
> question asked...

On tall doors, the lower 58 or so inches will store golf clubs, above
that a fixed shelf and an adjustable shelf.

[Leon]

On 3/4/2016 9:49 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/4/2016 9:13 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> I will likely have 4 hinges on each of the large doors and 2 one the
>> smaller doors.
>
> Except for 3-8 doors or ones that extraordinarily heavy, I rarely use
> more than 3 hinges on any door.
>
> IME, and particularly with cabinets doors, it is rarely necessary, and
> you will find adjusting the alignment of four euro hinges for smooth
> operation over a long length can be problematic if there is even the
> slightest lack of flatness, which is not unusual with taller doors over
> time.

It does get tricky when more than 2 hinges are used. I think he is
going to steer toward the lighter frame and panel doors so I may revisit
2 or 3 hinges on each.

>
> AAMOF, a couple of times I've had to remove a hinge completely, and plug
> the cup hole, to get a door to work properly.
>
> Then again, if you feel the need, and it works, go with your gut.
>
>> 1. Do buy all soft close hinges or only 1 soft close hinge mixed with a
>> standard appropriate hinge?
>
>
> IME, they all need to be the same. Insuring all hinges are the same
> type, make and model is paramount for a smooth, lasting operation.

OK, all the same.

>
>> 2. Use standard hinges and add the soft close "add on" unit to each
>> door.
>
> I'll choose a high quality, built-in soft close, hinge over an "add on"
> part every time ... more points of failure, higher possibility for call
> backs.

One more question, the all in one units, are you buying the edge mount
FF style hinges?

[Swingman]

On 3/4/2016 10:14 AM, Leon wrote:

> On tall doors, the lower 58 or so inches will store golf clubs, above
> that a fixed shelf and an adjustable shelf.

If you need a jointer to whip stiles that long into stock flat enough
for doors, you do know someone who has one ... LOL

[Swingman]

On 3/4/2016 10:20 AM, Leon wrote:

> One more question, the all in one units, are you buying the edge mount
> FF style hinges?

In soft close, I particularly like the 110 S/C Salice hinges ... good
overlay and installation, choices and the quality/price ration has been
excellent, to date.

CornerStone is my goto supplier and I usually go with something on this
page:

http://www.cabinethardware.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=salice+110

[-MIKE-]

All integrated soft-close hinges.
They difference in price is minuscule and would be superseded by your
labor to install the adapters.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[dpb]

On 03/04/2016 10:14 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/4/2016 9:45 AM, dpb wrote:

...

>> I'd suggest unless there's something in these 90" cabinets that is
>> actually 7-ft long (which I suppose is possible if is planning on
>> hanging yard tools behind doors which personally I think is a mistake,
>> too :) ) he'll rue the decision down the road...but that's not the
>> question asked...
>
> On tall doors, the lower 58 or so inches will store golf clubs, above
> that a fixed shelf and an adjustable shelf.

Boy, I'd really try to talk him into splitting 'em at the fixed shelf
height then. As Robert says, keeping those in plane for 20 yr in a
garage is going to be no mean feat...

--

[Swingman]

On 3/4/2016 10:20 AM, Leon wrote:

> It does get tricky when more than 2 hinges are used. I think he is
> going to steer toward the lighter frame and panel doors so I may revisit
> 2 or 3 hinges on each.

I know you already know this, but for anyone else wondering, I'd talk up
the water resistant MDF slab doors hard, and also turn those tall ones
into 2 each.

MDF may be heavy, but once finished, much more likely to start flat, and
stay flat over time, and so damned easy/inexpensive to cut/replace, and
they look great.

Remember these?

https://goo.gl/photos/LoZGU8oJAfXDQc6i9

Linda and I were invited for this past Thanksgiving dinner and those
doors are still as flat, with the same precise 3/32 reveal, as the day
you and I installed them five years ago.

[nailsh...@aol.com]

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 9:14:00 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

> With that in mind I am giving him 2 options for types of doors, solid
> panel 3/4" thick water resistant MDF or 3/4" thick poplar frame and
> 1/4" paint grade panels.

I think the manufacturer's suggestion would be the way to tackle the number of hinges. They will have their calculations built into their recommendations that will include weight and the ability of the hinges to move a door.

Also... might I suggest MDO instead of MDF for the large doors if you go that route? Water resistant MDF will warp and move in high temps and humidity, IME << even after sealing >>.

MDO would be probably be lighter too. If you went with the rail/stile construct, you could also use MDO in your panels for a split decision between your two presented options.

Even if the MDF was "water resistant", that doesn't mean you won't get movement. (DAMHIKT) At the least, I would borrow Karl's Earlex and squirt a coat of shellac on the faces before starting, and then again on the edges after cutting to final size.

Just a couple of thoughts...

Robert

[Swingman]

On 3/4/2016 12:11 PM, nailsh...@aol.com wrote:

> Also... might I suggest MDO instead of MDF for the large doors if you go that route? Water resistant MDF will warp and move in high temps and humidity, IME << even after sealing >>.

My experience with products like UltraStock, Medite and Medex, all MDF
products, has been different.

Leon will attest to the fact that I left a piece of 3/4 UltraStock mdf
in a clients birdbath fountain for a week, and it came out looking like
it went in ... pristine.

Also left a 4x4 cutoff of UltraStock out in the weather, leaning against
my fence for well over a year. Used it later for jigs and it was bit
weather stained, but still flat, with no ragged or blown edges, or warp
in evidence.

Also used Medex for 20' run of tall sliding doors in a set of carport
cabinets (open on two sides) quite a few years back. Still looking new
and standing the test of time thus far.

Basically, wouldn't hesitate to use those type products in an average
garage environment in this locale.

[Leon]

If he swallows the price I gave him I may make that 4 doors on that cab
instead of 2.

[Leon]

On 3/4/2016 10:47 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/4/2016 10:20 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> One more question, the all in one units, are you buying the edge mount
>> FF style hinges?
>
> In soft close, I particularly like the 110 S/C Salice hinges ... good
> overlay and installation, choices and the quality/price ration has been
> excellent, to date.
>
> CornerStone is my goto supplier and I usually go with something on this
> page:
>
> http://www.cabinethardware.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=salice+110
>

I found a Blum, essentially the same that I buy 50 at a time but with
soft close.

http://www.wwhardware.com/blum-compact-38n-1-2-overlay-edge-mount-built-in-soft-close-hinge

And the hinge I normally use.

http://www.wwhardware.com/blum-compact-38n-105-self-closing-hinges-b038n

[Leon]

On 3/4/2016 12:03 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/4/2016 10:20 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>> It does get tricky when more than 2 hinges are used. I think he is
>> going to steer toward the lighter frame and panel doors so I may revisit
>> 2 or 3 hinges on each.
>
> I know you already know this, but for anyone else wondering, I'd talk up
> the water resistant MDF slab doors hard, and also turn those tall ones
> into 2 each.

I just learned today that Hardwood Products no longer caries the green
water resistant MDF. ;~) Have you bought it any other place?

[Leon]

On 3/4/2016 11:40 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/4/16 9:13 AM, Leon wrote:
>> I have a client that wants a wall of garage cabinets.
>> There will be 2 doors that will each be 21" wide and 90" tall.
>> Additionally there will be 6 doors that will be 18" by 25" tall.
>>
>> With that in mind I am giving him 2 options for types of doors, solid
>> panel 3/4" thick water resistant MDF or 3/4" thick poplar frame and
>> 1/4" paint grade panels.
>>
>> He wants soft close hinges, Euro style.
>>
>> I will likely have 4 hinges on each of the large doors and 2 one the
>> smaller doors.
>>
>> 1. Do buy all soft close hinges or only 1 soft close hinge mixed with a
>> standard appropriate hinge?
>>
>> 2. Use standard hinges and add the soft close "add on" unit to each
>> door.
>>
>
> All integrated soft-close hinges.
> They difference in price is minuscule and would be superseded by your
> labor to install the adapters.
>
>

I think that is a good idea, I typically buy Blum 1/2" overlay 50 at a
time. I just learned that the same hinge comes with soft close.

[Leon]

On 3/4/2016 1:22 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/4/2016 12:11 PM, nailsh...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Also... might I suggest MDO instead of MDF for the large doors if you
>> go that route? Water resistant MDF will warp and move in high temps
>> and humidity, IME << even after sealing >>.
>
> My experience with products like UltraStock, Medite and Medex, all MDF
> products, has been different.
>
> Leon will attest to the fact that I left a piece of 3/4 UltraStock mdf
> in a clients birdbath fountain for a week, and it came out looking like
> it went in ... pristine.
>
> Also left a 4x4 cutoff of UltraStock out in the weather, leaning against
> my fence for well over a year. Used it later for jigs and it was bit
> weather stained, but still flat, with no ragged or blown edges, or warp
> in evidence.
>
> Also used Medex for 20' run of tall sliding doors in a set of carport
> cabinets (open on two sides) quite a few years back. Still looking new
> and standing the test of time thus far.
>
> Basically, wouldn't hesitate to use those type products in an average
> garage environment in this locale.
>

I built a lazy Susan with that same water resistant MDF scraps that we
used on that kitchen job. The lazy Susan sat on the grass in the back
yard with my water hose reel mounted on top.

It was rained on regularity and sat on the damp grass every morning. I
eventually disassembled it because the set up did not work like I wanted
but the MDF was still pretty decent looking. I did not throw away the MDF.

[Leon]

On 3/4/2016 12:11 PM, nailsh...@aol.com wrote:

Thank you Robert!

A couple of things, the customer is going to paint the cabinets.

BUT my last couple of purchases of domestic, paint quality birch plywood
ended up with the outer veneer lifting with the water based primer. I
was not happy but worked around that.

I think I will look into the MDO instead for the large cabinet panels
and shelves.

And I think the tall door may become two shorter doors.

[-MIKE-]

On 3/4/16 4:07 PM, Leon wrote:
> I found a Blum, essentially the same that I buy 50 at a time but with
> soft close.
>
> http://www.wwhardware.com/blum-compact-38n-1-2-overlay-edge-mount-built-in-soft-close-hinge
>
>

I just installed a bunch of those on a hinge replacement job and I was
impressed with their strength, adjustability, and operation. Good
choice IMO.

[Leon]

On 3/4/2016 4:34 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 3/4/16 4:07 PM, Leon wrote:
>> I found a Blum, essentially the same that I buy 50 at a time but with
>> soft close.
>>
>> http://www.wwhardware.com/blum-compact-38n-1-2-overlay-edge-mount-built-in-soft-close-hinge
>>
>>
>>
>
> I just installed a bunch of those on a hinge replacement job and I was
> impressed with their strength, adjustability, and operation. Good
> choice IMO.
>
>
>

The soft close? The regular close Blum is pretty tough, I have
probably bought 3~4 hundred of them over the years. Much cheaper in
boxes of 50 and they often go on sale for about $1 each in boxes of 50.

And a life time warranty. I have had a couple of Blum's fail, not this
design, I installed them in 1990ish. Blum replaced all, broken or not,
on a particular door. They were slightly different but not enough to
cause a visual impact.

[Swingman]

On 3/4/2016 4:19 PM, Leon wrote:

> I think I will look into the MDO instead for the large cabinet panels
> and shelves.

MDO works well, as long as you're prepared to do edge banding, only very
light easing/no round overs (without a lot of sizing/prepping edges for
painting).

Check availability carefully..

Last time I used MDO, Clark's was about the only place that carried it
in 3/4".

Hardwood Products didn't carry it then, maybe they do now? It's not on
my price sheet.

Home Depot carried it at one time, but only 3/8". That might have changed.

Dixie lumber used to carry it also, but haven't seen much around lately.

I managed to order the last 3/4 MDO I used through Detering, much
cheaper than Clark's.

And, let me know what you find out with regard to price availability. :)

[-MIKE-]

Yes, soft close. I will go to them again. The only thing that would
make them better is an up-down adjustment that didn't involve loosening
the fastening screw. But I get it. Without loosening both (all)
fastening screws on the door, some serious torque could be exerted on a
non-loosened hinge.

BTW, there's a tiny little switch in the cup-side of the hinge for
turning the soft-close on-off. I guess that could come in handy for
fine tuning a 3-hinge door.

[-MIKE-]

On 3/4/16 7:27 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/4/2016 4:19 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>> I think I will look into the MDO instead for the large cabinet panels
>> and shelves.
>

Have you guys seem this stuff?
http://www.panguaneta.com/en/classic-plywood/pioppo-mdf-plywood
I saw it used a could weeks ago and it freaked me out.
Advantages on veneer plywood plus the smooth paint-ability of hard mdf?

[nailsh...@aol.com]

On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 8:07:03 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:

> Have you guys seem this stuff?
> http://www.panguaneta.com/en/classic-plywood/pioppo-mdf-plywood
> I saw it used a could weeks ago and it freaked me out.
> Advantages on veneer plywood plus the smooth paint-ability of hard mdf?

It has been around for years. Sign makers use it, it winds up in boats and marine applications, etc. I first saw it when it was being used by a sign company and they gave me some cutoffs. One groups of cut offs had smooth wood on both sides over resin soaked/heat/pressure/treated plies of veneer, and was made to be painted or stained. Some of the other pieces had a hard, colored acrylic board bonded to it. The sign guys told me that they could also get that same wood or plastic exterior ply with an aluminum core!

Look for it under its old name of "hdo" or high density overlay. I is also called "sign board" or some such by some.

BTW... it is nasty expensive in some of its forms, so not really too practical except for its own specialty use.

Robert

[Leon]

On 3/4/2016 7:58 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
Sbip

>
> Yes, soft close. I will go to them again. The only thing that would
> make them better is an up-down adjustment that didn't involve loosening
> the fastening screw. But I get it. Without loosening both (all)
> fastening screws on the door, some serious torque could be exerted on a
> non-loosened hinge.
>
> BTW, there's a tiny little switch in the cup-side of the hinge for
> turning the soft-close on-off. I guess that could come in handy for
> fine tuning a 3-hinge door.
>
>

I noticed that little grey spot and then determined it was a switch.
Pretty cool.

[Leon]

On 3/4/2016 7:27 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/4/2016 4:19 PM, Leon wrote:
>
>> I think I will look into the MDO instead for the large cabinet panels
>> and shelves.
>
> MDO works well, as long as you're prepared to do edge banding, only very
> light easing/no round overs (without a lot of sizing/prepping edges for
> painting).

I have decided to use MDO instead of the paint grade birch plywood for
the panels of the cabinet and the shelves. It was probably a fluke that
the veneer on my last PG plywood lifted after priming with water base,
but I don't want to take a chance on that happening again.



>
> Check availability carefully..

Right after reading Roberts comment about using it I called Hardwood
Products. They have it in 3/4" only at $64.95 per sheet. I need 4
sheets and I'll gladly eat the difference in profit. The domestic PG
was 44.95.

>
> Last time I used MDO, Clark's was about the only place that carried it
> in 3/4".
>
> Hardwood Products didn't carry it then, maybe they do now? It's not on
> my price sheet.
>
> Home Depot carried it at one time, but only 3/8". That might have changed.
>
> Dixie lumber used to carry it also, but haven't seen much around lately.
>
> I managed to order the last 3/4 MDO I used through Detering, much
> cheaper than Clark's.
>
> And, let me know what you find out with regard to price availability. :)
>

See above.

And now that we are talking different plywood, MDF, and MDO this
reminded me of some oak veneered stain grade plywood I bought many many
years ago from HW Products. I have never seen it since.

First outer ply veneers were oak, naturally, immediately under, on each
side, was a layer of MDF, and then the 3 center plys of what ever wood
is normally used. That stuff was crazy flat and no voids under the
outer veneer. And it cut just a little bit easier on my old 1hp
Craftsman TS.

[Swingman]

On 3/5/2016 8:20 AM, Leon wrote:

> It was probably a fluke that the veneer on my last PG plywood lifted
> after priming with water base, but I don't want to take a chance on
> that happening again.

I think you got bit by the push to reduce formaldehyde in glues these days.

> First outer ply veneers were oak, naturally, immediately under, on each
> side, was a layer of MDF, and then the 3 center plys of what ever wood
> is normally used. That stuff was crazy flat and no voids under the
> outer veneer. And it cut just a little bit easier on my old 1hp
> Craftsman TS.

Last time I looked they still have it. IIRC, it's called "combined-core"
or "combination core".

Spece'ed a LEED kitchen project with it once and it was nixed due to the
formaldehyde content at the time ... ruined their little warm fuzzies.

[OFWW]

http://www.menards.com/main/search.html?search=mdo

Menards, evidently all over the northern states carries it.

HD says to talk to the lumber dept exec in your area.

I have been looking for MDO since finding out it was best for painted
cabinets as it had a flat surface, where even the best plywood's when
painted showed all the variances under the skin. :(

I am going to check around here. Roseberg, Oregon is just past the
state line a bit, and I think we should get first dibs. LOL.

MDF unless you get the stuff made for bath rooms is like regular
particle board as to usability.

As you can tell, I am on the hunt too. The stuff from Italy for
painted cabinets, or for veneering looks promising.

[Swingman]

On 3/5/2016 10:47 AM, OFWW wrote:

> MDF unless you get the stuff made for bath rooms is like regular
> particle board as to usability.

As Captain Obvious sez: "Not all MDF is created equal." ;)

Not directed towards you, but there is a general lack of experience with
the various grades and "usability" of the product, particularly when
reading internet posts.

Even the cheaper grades of MDF are more dimensionally stable over time
in the same environment than most general use and cabinet grade
plywoods, and have some more desirable properties:

It machines well, lends itself well to surface and edge profile/contour
routing, finishes better (with no telegraphing of subsurface defects as
I've had with cheaper grades of MDO with thinner veneer), repairs easier
(Bondo is magic), is more sustainable, and when properly finished, can
be more cost effective for an equally beautiful fit and finish in
certain interiors tasks, like interior doors of all kinds, even in
uninsulated interior environments, like a garage.

(Folks don't often realize just how many high dollar, paint grade,
paneled interior doors have been made of MDF for quite a few years).

http://www.simpsondoor.com/door-series/interior/mdf/

Not to mention its use in jigs and fixtures, where dimensional stability
is paramount.

The thread started out about "garage cabinets".

I've built/caused to be built many garage cabinets, some using MDF doors
when the design and budget precluded more expensive alternatives,
including for my own shop.

I can say unequivocally that I have had fewer problems with even the
cheaper grade MDF doors warping/bowing than with many all wood doors in
the same environment.

Granted, in most cases for MDF interior doors in both kitchens, baths
and garages, I've spec'ed the best grades/types of MDF, even it it had
to be ordered at extra cost.

However, being a cheap bastard when it comes to eating my own dog food,
these cheap, Home Depot purchased MDF, cabinet doors, as seen below,
have been in my non-insulated shop (an old garage/utility room, with
garage door most often opened in use) for over five years now.

These slab MDF doors, of the cheapest grade MDF available at the BORG,
have been subjected to the notorious swings of Gulf Coast temperature
and humidity, and, as this photo taken a few minutes ago shows, and
despite non temperature/humidity controlled environment, show no signs
of warping, bowing ... or any movement whatsoever:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopRetrofit2011?noredirect=1#6258622200790550322

I have many more examples showing the stability of this material when
used and finished properly in Gulf Coast garage environments.

Basically I would sat to not sell the product short for interior door
applications in that type of environment.

As always, YMMV ... even though most often the proof is indeed in the
pudding. ;)

[OFWW]

Isn't the weight an issue with mdf?

>However, being a cheap bastard when it comes to eating my own dog food,
>these cheap, Home Depot purchased MDF, cabinet doors, as seen below,
>have been in my non-insulated shop (an old garage/utility room, with
>garage door most often opened in use) for over five years now.
>
>These slab MDF doors, of the cheapest grade MDF available at the BORG,
>have been subjected to the notorious swings of Gulf Coast temperature
>and humidity, and, as this photo taken a few minutes ago shows, and
>despite non temperature/humidity controlled environment, show no signs
>of warping, bowing ... or any movement whatsoever:
>
>https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopRetrofit2011?noredirect=1#6258622200790550322
>
>I have many more examples showing the stability of this material when
>used and finished properly in Gulf Coast garage environments.
>

They look fine to me. I made some for my shop with melamine which I
found out was really made of particle board, not mdf as they said it
was. The found out I needed vinyl glue by tightbond. to secure some
joints. I was not impressed as a couple of the panels came apart
easily. Were those painted?

>Basically I would sat to not sell the product short for interior door
>applications in that type of environment.
>
>As always, YMMV ... even though most often the proof is indeed in the
>pudding. ;)

I just recently bought another book on cabinet work. In it they went
through the pro's and con's regarding case work, and mentioned MDO was
the ticket for painting due to its flat nature, were as even good
Baltic Birch would show the imperfections or voids when painted where
as if it was stained of coated with varnish, etc. it wouldn't be so
noticeable.

They also mentioned that the MDO have better screw biting, holding
than MDF, and so on. Along with that the cabinet and or door would
weigh a lot less.

So that is what I was going by. I also checked with HD and while they
didn't have it in stock they did have one sided 4 x 8's in various
thickness' from 3/8's up. with a 3 day delivery. No cost firmed, but
the said to come back on weekdays. I am also going to check the local
hardwood shops to see what they say, and I needed to gather up info
there for the FF.

I am about ready to make a cut sheet but have been toying with some
ideas on slides, using the information from Leon and yourself for
installation. I am hoping to have some designs done on that, this
week.

[Leon]

It can be but when you cut it down to smaller sizes it is not all that
much heavier.

BUT you certainly want to use "QUALITY" hinges. Most Euro style hinges
work best as they do not rely on screws to hold the weight of the panel
rather the panel fits on to the hinge and two screws simply keep the
panel from coming off of the hinge.

[Swingman]

On 3/7/2016 2:09 AM, OFWW wrote:

> I just recently bought another book on cabinet work. In it they went
> through the pro's and con's regarding case work, and mentioned MDO was
> the ticket for painting due to its flat nature, were as even good
> Baltic Birch would show the imperfections or voids when painted where
> as if it was stained of coated with varnish, etc. it wouldn't be so
> noticeable.
>
> They also mentioned that the MDO have better screw biting, holding
> than MDF, and so on. Along with that the cabinet and or door would
> weigh a lot less.

While some of that has a degree of truth, in practice it depends upon
the requirements of the particular job as to whether various attributes
of a particular are indeed essential to the success of that project.

I prefer that my use of any material/product be dictated by my personal
experience ... too many dumb shits writing teaching/making videos and
parroting "conventional wisdom" because they can't make it by actually
doing.

Because of that, and as always, I will express my experience on an
issue, as well as try to provide some evidence of that experience, like
photographs, all of which the reader can take, or leave.

As always, YMMV...

[-MIKE-]

That's one aspect of the brilliance of that cup design on euro hinges.
The same design attribute that allows for hiding the working guts of the
hinge also provide most of its mounting strength.

You can sort of think of it as a very large round tenon.

[Swingman]

On 3/7/2016 11:24 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

> That's one aspect of the brilliance of that cup design on euro hinges.
> The same design attribute that allows for hiding the working guts of the
> hinge also provide most of its mounting strength.
>
> You can sort of think of it as a very large round tenon.

Not only that, but most manufacturer's of cup type hinges provide an
option of two methods of mounting:

Wood screws only; or plastic dowel and dowel screws.

Thus addressing the issue of some door materials holding screws better
than others in some applications.

[Leon]

On 3/7/2016 11:43 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 3/7/2016 11:24 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> That's one aspect of the brilliance of that cup design on euro hinges.
>> The same design attribute that allows for hiding the working guts of the
>> hinge also provide most of its mounting strength.
>>
>> You can sort of think of it as a very large round tenon.
>
> Not only that, but most manufacturer's of cup type hinges provide an
> option of two methods of mounting:
>
> Wood screws only; or plastic dowel and dowel screws.
>
> Thus addressing the issue of some door materials holding screws better
> than others in some applications.
>

I was always under the impression that the plastic "knock-in" hinges
were simply to speed installation in a production setting. ;~)

Learn something new every day!

[Swingman]

Something that manufacturer's, like Blum, even advertise as optional
accessories ... #2 from their blurb on accessory uses:

"Plastic Dowels, used on manufactured wood products where wood screws do
not hold well"

Often needing to replace existing hinges for ones that will give me the
necessary clearance for pullouts and drawers, I keep a package handy
(get them locally at Rockler) in my "cabinet" tool box.

... you can also tap one in, then use a regular hinge wood screw in a
pinch.

[nailsh...@aol.com]

On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 12:34:37 PM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:

> As Captain Obvious sez: "Not all MDF is created equal." ;)
>
> Not directed towards you, but there is a general lack of experience with
> the various grades and "usability" of the product, particularly when
> reading internet posts.

You might be able to toss me in that bag, too. I have used a fair amount of MDF and HDF, and all kinds of other products, but only on a limited basis. While San Antonio is a large city geographically, we can be surprisingly behind the times.

I see all kinds of products at the home shows (we haven't had a woodworking show in probably 20 years) that look great, but aren't available here. One year I saw a new kind of OSB that was very smooth, an inch thick, and held up the front end of a Ford F150 driven partly onto a sheet laid on a specially made sawhorse for the nationwide demo.

We never had it here. Never available.

One of my cabinet contacts buys a super high grade HDF, but has to buy it by the lift. He uses it with a mill to make custom cabinet doors (remember Sekeris making his sheafs of wheat on all black doors?) with a Legacy type mill. He can't get it locally.

I got a half sheet of salvage from a lumberyard that was cleaning out its racks, and no one knew what it was. It wasn't water resistant, but it was dandy for a work table I made for a client. It completely stable, and wore like iron on a small work table I made for him. I have the other piece under a piece of Formica on my home made router table.

I personally have never seen, and frankly never heard of any kind of MDF you could leave outside with no concern. I don't even bother to look for that kind of thing here as I have wasted waaaay to much time looking for something like that. It's a shame we don't have some of the more advanced products here, but that's the way it goes. I am just happy I can get the super hard MDF architectural baseboards here that are so popular these days.

> As always, YMMV ... even though most often the proof is indeed in the
> pudding. ;)

Yup.

Robert

[J. Clarke]

In article <53caa703-3740-42af...@googlegroups.com>,
nailsh...@aol.com says...

It's called "Extira". I suspect that there's a pile of it at the
Dixieply yard, but getting it out of them might be a chore. One of the
local hardwood retailers stocks it and this is hardly lumber heaven.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

We've used the "extra" for outdoor signs, and although it lasts longer
than regular MDF the signs were shot within a year