Woodpeckers isn't alone.

[krw]

Seems Woodpeckers isn't the only one selling a dumb idea.

<http://www.toolnut.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=calavera&trk_msg=TEUOO45PFHSK90AU4J0U4N4BN0&trk_contact=KQTSG16SEK63VR876LV4HQS4NS&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=http%3a%2f%2fwww.toolnut.com%2fcatalogsearch%2fresult%2f%3fq%3dcalavera&utm_campaign=New+Calavera+Organization+Solution+Breaks+the+Mold>

[marc rosen]

Too bad it's not as nice looking as this "Calavera"
Marc



https://calaveraswimwear.com/collections/all-products

[krw]

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 18:14:30 -0800 (PST), marc rosen <duck...@qis.net>
wrote:

>Too bad it's not as nice looking as this "Calavera"
> Marc
>
>
>
>https://calaveraswimwear.com/collections/all-products

Different species of wood.

[russell...@yahoo.com]

There swimsuit models are not ugly. No. But they aren't going to win any beauty contests either.

[DerbyDad03]

One of them would if they were the only ones in it.

[Larry Kraus]

Slip one on. We'll decide which looks best.

[Leon]

On 12/8/2016 7:41 PM, krw wrote:
>
> Seems Woodpeckers isn't the only one selling a dumb idea.
>
> <http://www.toolnut.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=calavera&trk_msg=TEUOO45PFHSK90AU4J0U4N4BN0&trk_contact=KQTSG16SEK63VR876LV4HQS4NS&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=http%3a%2f%2fwww.toolnut.com%2fcatalogsearch%2fresult%2f%3fq%3dcalavera&utm_campaign=New+Calavera+Organization+Solution+Breaks+the+Mold>
>

Not so much an idea, but the same brand and item as what Woodpecker is
selling.

Now this will make you laugh. My wife made these a year or two ago for
presents for her sewing friends. They are like litter baskets. ;~)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/29168606644/in/dateposted-public/

[notbob]

On 2016-12-09, krw <k...@somewhere.com> wrote:

> Seems Woodpeckers isn't the only one selling a dumb idea.

C'mon ....you ppl love this crap. I can tell by this newsgroup's love
of Lee Valley Tools.

Yes, I've bought some woodworking tools from Lee Valley, but I also
recently received their Christmas gift catalog. Watta buncha insanely
overpriced plastic junk!

It's embarrassing, really. 8|

nb

[Leon]

Here is the manufacturer of the bags that they are selling.

http://www.calaveratoolworks.com/

[Swingman]

That's OK ... #factoryairlivesmatter.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

[Tim Daneliuk]

On 12/09/2016 11:24 AM, notbob wrote:
> Watta buncha insanely
> overpriced plastic junk!

Some people are addicted to woodworking. Some people are tool collectors.
The intersection of these sets is not large.

I am no pro WWing genius but I've made some sawdust in my day. What
I have discovered in every profession/hobby/pursuit I've ever tried
is that one this seems mostly to be true everywhere:

The better someone is at something, the less stuff they need to do it.

[Leon]

That statement is probably true but the person that is good at something
rarely does so with out a lot of experimentation on the best ways and
tools to use.

[dpb]

On 12/09/2016 3:30 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 12/9/2016 2:13 PM, Tim Daneliuk wrote:

...

>> The better someone is at something, the less stuff they need to do it.

> That statement is probably true but the person that is good at something
> rarely does so with out a lot of experimentation on the best ways and
> tools to use.

"Need", I'd grant. I'd note that if one will observe the shops of the
truly talented, as a rule the number of specialized tools is
tremendously expanded over that of the even practiced weekender. OTOH,
the amateur is far more likely to have gathered many more power gadgets
in lieu of a myriad of hand planes, specialized chisels and handsaws,
etc., etc., etc., ...

I don't recall the particular individual now, but one of the recognized
professionals had tour of shop published in FWW a number of years ago.
His collection of hand planes that he actively used routinely was about
150--they were stored in a cubby-hole arrangement along one wall of the
shop by size and shape of sole as he used. He had a number that were of
extreme vintage plus those purchased as well as many that he had made
for himself.

[notbob]

On 2016-12-09, Tim Daneliuk <in...@tundraware.com> wrote:

> On 12/09/2016 11:24 AM, notbob wrote:

>> Watta buncha insanely overpriced plastic junk!

> Some people are addicted to woodworking.

Others are excellent at selling drooling fools "insanely overpriced
plastic junk". Case in point:

http://www.leevalley.com/US/hardware/page.aspx?p=74055&cat=53

I've bought a few things from Lee Valley. I'll most likely buy a few
more things. But, I'm no chump and will not pay $10 fer something I
can probably make out of a wad of chewing gum. ;)

nb

[Bill]

I bought something similar at Office Depot once to get some internet
cable off of the floor. The price seemed "marked-up" to me too, but it
was a good and fast solution to a problem. The one's I bought were in
the "easily-removable" category. If I need 100 of them I might consider
the matter differently than if I needed only 6. My time is worth
something too... "You have to choose your battles..." : )


>
> nb

[Sonny]

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 11:22:33 AM UTC-6, Leon wrote:

> Now this will make you laugh. My wife made these a year or two ago for
> presents for her sewing friends. They are like litter baskets. ;~)
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/29168606644/in/dateposted-public/

Need to hand those out to the young kids... tell them they are for holding/storing the clothes pins.

Sonny

[krw]

Hmm, too big for a beer koozie.

[Sonny]

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 3:59:24 PM UTC-6, notbob wrote:

> Others are excellent at selling drooling fools "insanely overpriced
> plastic junk". Case in point:
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/US/hardware/page.aspx?p=74055&cat=53
>
> I've bought a few things from Lee Valley. I'll most likely buy a few
> more things. But, I'm no chump and will not pay $10 fer something I
> can probably make out of a wad of chewing gum. ;)
>
> nb

Colored cable holders! Spray paint some clothes pins and hot glue them to the "cabinet".

In some cases, I've used clothes pins as small wood clamps.

Sonny

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 12/9/2016 4:59 PM, notbob wrote:

>
> Others are excellent at selling drooling fools "insanely overpriced
> plastic junk". Case in point:
>
> http://www.leevalley.com/US/hardware/page.aspx?p=74055&cat=53
>
> I've bought a few things from Lee Valley. I'll most likely buy a few
> more things. But, I'm no chump and will not pay $10 fer something I
> can probably make out of a wad of chewing gum. ;)
>
> nb
>

Wait a few weeks and you may find them at the Dollar store.

A few years ago I bought a few jar openers. Liked them so much I bought
some to give to friends. Went back for more and the price jumped up too
high
http://www.leevalley.com/US/garden/page.aspx?p=44271&cat=2,40733,40734
I'd gladly pay about $4 for it, but $9.95 is too much for a piece of
bent metal.

[Bill]

Looks like you could make something that would do the job--maybe from
soft steel, which is pretty cheap at the hardware store.

[notbob]

On 2016-12-10, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote:

> Wait a few weeks and you may find them at the Dollar store.

Prolly there, now, but fer a mere $3.

I bought one of Lee Valley's BPA-free 16oz mugs. Almost $14 w/ cap.
When I first dragged my new drinking vessel to a local BYOB gathering,
I was shocked to see at least 3-4 others drinking outta 22oz-36oz mugs
that looked exactly like my Tervis drinking vessel (exact same cap).
When I asked each person how much they paid for these
obiously-larger-than-mine vessels, no one answered any price over $5.
Boy, was I PO'd. Maybe they weren't BPA-free. ????

When I later got home, I discovered I had already bought a BPA-free
16oz mug fer me late mum. Marketed under the name Alladin, it was
made to look like a Mason jar, was double insultated (like a Tervis),
had a screw-on cap, and a built-in --yet removable-- straw. $10 at
Walmart. (sigh)

I'll learn. ;)

nb

[Leon]

If you strive to pay the least for something you may never buy anything.
You can always get something for less than you paid.

[woodchucker]

+1

--
Jeff

[krw]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 09:43:35 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

True. If you need(want) something the decision is whether the item is
worth the price asked. If it is, buy it. Else...

> You can always get something for less than you paid.

Sure and it hurts when it's $100 less expensive the next week. I just
remember that it was worth what I paid for it (or I wouldn't have).

[Leon]

I have a CitiCard Master Card. It pays me 2% for everything that I buy
and pay for when the bill is generated.
Also it has a price rewind feature that protects your purchase against
paying too much for 60 days.

For 2 items I have been credited $80 in the past 18 months.

I bought my son a Ridgid combo drill/impact and Citicards has already
found the price to be less, $20 less.

So if I see something I want but don't want to drive across town to get
the best deal the credit card credits me.

I just have to show my receipt, when, and where I bought it. Credit
shops up about 10 weeks after I make the purchase.

And they remind me that a purchase might be eligible.

[Scott Lurndal]

That $10 gets 9 pieces, so about a buck each. I'd not call that

[krw]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 16:56:51 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>

I've been tempted to get that card. I've looked hard at it but I have
enough cards. The best is my Sam's card - pays 5% back on gas and 3%
on travel/vacations. That's pretty much all I use it for. I paid for
half of my Unisaur with cash back from Amex.

>Also it has a price rewind feature that protects your purchase against
>paying too much for 60 days.

There must be limitations but it's a good deal. I doubt that I'd go
out of my way to collect on it, though.

[Leon]

We also have Discover that pays 1% and 5% on some things that change
quarterly. BUT the catch with most 5% programs is that they are limited
to about $1500 per quarter or $45 back per quarter. We pay everything
that we can on CC and pay that card off each month with out fail. This
year the Citicard has averaged $70 per month in just cash back in
purchases.. We let the amount accumulate to help pay for Christmas,
year end property taxes, and insurance.

>
>> Also it has a price rewind feature that protects your purchase against
>> paying too much for 60 days.
>
> There must be limitations but it's a good deal. I doubt that I'd go
> out of my way to collect on it, though.

You really don't have to do any thing to collect except up load a scan
of your receipt. The CC company catches half of the purchases that I
make that qualify, those that I miss. That upload is all the paperwork
that you need.

[krw]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 20:22:55 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>

We don't use cards for everything. We go to restaurants three or four
times a week(end). I almost always use cash (and always tip in cash).
I prefer to use my cash-back on Festools. ;-)

>>
>>> Also it has a price rewind feature that protects your purchase against
>>> paying too much for 60 days.
>>
>> There must be limitations but it's a good deal. I doubt that I'd go
>> out of my way to collect on it, though.
>
>You really don't have to do any thing to collect except up load a scan
>of your receipt. The CC company catches half of the purchases that I
>make that qualify, those that I miss. That upload is all the paperwork
>that you need.

How do they know what the "new" price is?

[Bill]

>
> If you strive to pay the least for something you may never buy
> anything. You can always get something for less than you paid.

I've learned in a few cases that I should be buying at Walmart instead
of Lowes. 20-30% price difference on the same garbage bags for instance.

[Leon]

Typically Lowe's, Home Depot and the like are convenient not
competitively priced.

About 10 years go my local ACE hardware store challenged me to find
something that they and the local Home Depot stocked where Home Depot
was less expensive. This is not always true but you have to shop to get
the lowest price.

[Leon]

Well you could reduce your costs by 2% if you did use a card. ;~)

>
>>>
>>>> Also it has a price rewind feature that protects your purchase against
>>>> paying too much for 60 days.
>>>
>>> There must be limitations but it's a good deal. I doubt that I'd go
>>> out of my way to collect on it, though.
>>
>> You really don't have to do any thing to collect except up load a scan
>> of your receipt. The CC company catches half of the purchases that I
>> make that qualify, those that I miss. That upload is all the paperwork
>> that you need.
>
> How do they know what the "new" price is?
>

I am clueless how they keep up with that. All I know is that I submit
the copy of the receipt for the chosen purchase and a lower price is
often found with out my help. In the beginning I thought I had to show
proof of a lower price but that is not the case. And they watch for 60
days. If during that 60 day period there is a price reduction somewhere
you get the credit, even if the price goes back up.

[Jack]

I needed something similar to keep my Cell phone charging cord on top of
my table, and I used a paper clip, like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prG3qWjp4Nk

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

[Jack]

I learned long ago the easiest way to open jars like this is to run hot
water over the lid for a few seconds. Seems to work 100% of the time.

--
Jack
I finally got my head together, and now my body is falling apart.
http://jbstein.com

[Jack]

I use earphones every day, specifically Sony MDR-G45LP behind the head
model, and I keep an extra pair for when one breaks. The last pair I
bought was $13 on Amazon in 2012. I broke the old ones and went to
Amazon to get another set. They were $27 plus shipping. I looked
around a bit, and same prices came up. I didn't buy them because I
though the doubling of price seemed wrong. Few weeks later I did a more
thorough search and found them on line at Walmart for $14 and free
shipping. Much more like it, so I bought 2, just in case.

You might always be able to get something for less than you paid, but
it's even more likely to pay way too much for something, especially at
Amazon. You really need to be careful buying from Amazon, they are
sneaky bastards...

[Jack]

On 12/10/2016 5:56 PM, Leon wrote:
>
> I have a CitiCard Master Card. It pays me 2% for everything that I buy
> and pay for when the bill is generated.
> Also it has a price rewind feature that protects your purchase against
> paying too much for 60 days.

I just went to their site

https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/citi.action

and a quick look-see didn't find this feature?

Am I at the right place? This sounds too good to pass up. I'm a cheap
SOB so I usually look before I leap, but my wife seems to care less, and
goes by your philosophy just buy whatever you want, don't worry about
the price.

She's too old for the "if it feels good do it" crowd, but she's adopted
that attitude when buying stuff. She needs this card... I need her to
get this card...

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 12/11/2016 1:58 PM, Jack wrote:

>>
>> A few years ago I bought a few jar openers. Liked them so much I bought
>> some to give to friends. Went back for more and the price jumped up too
>> high
>> http://www.leevalley.com/US/garden/page.aspx?p=44271&cat=2,40733,40734
>> I'd gladly pay about $4 for it, but $9.95 is too much for a piece of
>> bent metal.
>
> I learned long ago the easiest way to open jars like this is to run hot
> water over the lid for a few seconds. Seems to work 100% of the time.
>

Works well on previously opened jars but I found it less so on new. The
trick is to release the vacuum.

[notbob]

On 2016-12-11, Jack <jbst...@comcast.net> wrote:

> I learned long ago the easiest way to open jars like this is to run hot
> water over the lid for a few seconds. Seems to work 100% of the time.

I learned a long time ago yer method does not always work.

Take the backside of a butter knife and apply glancing blows to the
outside-upper corner of the cap --in the direction of "lefty Lucy"--
to loosen the cap. I've use the same method --with a hammer and a
cold chisel-- to loosen rusted bolts/washers.

Gar-own-tee! ;)

nb

[Bill]

Jack wrote:
>
> I needed something similar to keep my Cell phone charging cord on top
> of my table, and I used a paper clip, like this:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prG3qWjp4Nk
>

Some nice tips there!
Bill

[DerbyDad03]

I learned a long time ago that the easiest way to open a jar is to turn it over and slap the
bottom hard enough to hear a "crack". Most of the pressure will have been released and
the top will spin off with relative ease.

I learned that from a bartender in Germany while serving in the USCG. SWMBO will hand
me a jar that she can't open, I'll slap it and hand it back. She opens it right up.

[Unknown]

Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote in
news:7di3A.117943$NC2....@fx13.iad:

>>
>> I learned long ago the easiest way to open jars like this is to run
>> hot water over the lid for a few seconds. Seems to work 100% of the
>> time.
>>
>
> Works well on previously opened jars but I found it less so on new.
> The trick is to release the vacuum.

Don't you guys just chuck it up in the lathe and part the cap off? If you
spin it fast enough, the contents won't spill out.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

[Unknown]

Jack <jbst...@comcast.net> wrote in news:o2k8qf$qgm$1...@dont-email.me:

>
> I use earphones every day, specifically Sony MDR-G45LP behind the head
> model, and I keep an extra pair for when one breaks. The last pair I
> bought was $13 on Amazon in 2012. I broke the old ones and went to
> Amazon to get another set. They were $27 plus shipping. I looked
> around a bit, and same prices came up. I didn't buy them because I
> though the doubling of price seemed wrong. Few weeks later I did a
> more thorough search and found them on line at Walmart for $14 and
> free shipping. Much more like it, so I bought 2, just in case.
>
> You might always be able to get something for less than you paid, but
> it's even more likely to pay way too much for something, especially at
> Amazon. You really need to be careful buying from Amazon, they are
> sneaky bastards...
>

camelcamelcamel.com

Pricing games are rampant on Amazon. It's not just Amazon doing it.
Camel Camel Camel gives you a price history and monitors prices, sending
you an email if you request it. I think they make their money from
Amazon referral links, so haven't bothered me with annoying e-mails.

[krw]

On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 09:33:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>

2% of 5%. ;-)

>>>>> Also it has a price rewind feature that protects your purchase against
>>>>> paying too much for 60 days.
>>>>
>>>> There must be limitations but it's a good deal. I doubt that I'd go
>>>> out of my way to collect on it, though.
>>>
>>> You really don't have to do any thing to collect except up load a scan
>>> of your receipt. The CC company catches half of the purchases that I
>>> make that qualify, those that I miss. That upload is all the paperwork
>>> that you need.
>>
>> How do they know what the "new" price is?
>>
>
>I am clueless how they keep up with that. All I know is that I submit
>the copy of the receipt for the chosen purchase and a lower price is
>often found with out my help. In the beginning I thought I had to show
>proof of a lower price but that is not the case. And they watch for 60
>days. If during that 60 day period there is a price reduction somewhere
>you get the credit, even if the price goes back up.

*Somewhere*? Wow, that is impressive.

[krw]

On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 14:36:47 -0500, Jack <jbst...@comcast.net> wrote:

>On 12/10/2016 5:56 PM, Leon wrote:
>>
>> I have a CitiCard Master Card. It pays me 2% for everything that I buy
>> and pay for when the bill is generated.
>> Also it has a price rewind feature that protects your purchase against
>> paying too much for 60 days.
>
>I just went to their site
>
>https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/citi.action
>
>and a quick look-see didn't find this feature?
>
>Am I at the right place? This sounds too good to pass up. I'm a cheap
>SOB so I usually look before I leap, but my wife seems to care less, and
>goes by your philosophy just buy whatever you want, don't worry about
>the price.

I tell my wife, "Don't worry, it's just money. There's more where
that came from." As if my magic, every couple of weeks more shows up.

>
>She's too old for the "if it feels good do it" crowd, but she's adopted
>that attitude when buying stuff. She needs this card... I need her to
>get this card...

Not so much as "feels good", rather if I want something, might as well
make it what I want. The price only hurts once.

[Leon]

I have been using this cable for charging my phone. I was attracted
because of the length available but the sliding knotted ball keeps the
cable on table tops when not in use. A little pricey but nice.

http://www.nativeunion.com/products/cables/

[Leon]

;~) Perhaps I should have just stated if there is a price increase.
The lower price has not always been at the same place of business that I
bought from.

[Leon]

On 12/11/2016 1:36 PM, Jack wrote:
> On 12/10/2016 5:56 PM, Leon wrote:
>>
>> I have a CitiCard Master Card. It pays me 2% for everything that I buy
>> and pay for when the bill is generated.
>> Also it has a price rewind feature that protects your purchase against
>> paying too much for 60 days.
>
> I just went to their site
>
> https://www.citi.com/credit-cards/citi.action
>
> and a quick look-see didn't find this feature?

They do not make it easy to find, but if they notice an item on your
charge list that qualify they offer a direct link.

Otherwise,

https://x.www.citipricerewind.com/

[krw]

On Mon, 12 Dec 2016 19:03:00 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>

No, that's what I meant by "*somewhere*". It is impressive. I wasn't
making a funny.

[Leon]

On 12/12/2016 7:46 PM, krw wrote:
Snip

>>>> I am clueless how they keep up with that. All I know is that I submit
>>>> the copy of the receipt for the chosen purchase and a lower price is
>>>> often found with out my help. In the beginning I thought I had to show
>>>> proof of a lower price but that is not the case. And they watch for 60
>>>> days. If during that 60 day period there is a price reduction somewhere
>>>> you get the credit, even if the price goes back up.
>>>
>>> *Somewhere*? Wow, that is impressive.
>>>
>>
>> ;~) Perhaps I should have just stated if there is a price increase.
>> The lower price has not always been at the same place of business that I
>> bought from.
>
> No, that's what I meant by "*somewhere*". It is impressive. I wasn't
> making a funny.
>

OK. LOL Here is a link to the details and you can click a video.

https://x.www.citipricerewind.com/

[Bill]

About 1/3 a roll of electrician's tape would make a dandy knot like that...

[Leon]

But not make the cable 6' long.

[Jack]

Thanks Leon. This sounds too good to be true. You would think they
would make this a prominent feature in there ads. Everyone would like
this, not everyone cares about free air miles, or whatever they all
advertise.

I note they say they "may" give you a refund if a lower price found in
60 days. Does that mean sometimes, even if a better price was found,
they won't refund you? For example, I bought two earphones from
Walmart for $26. The same purchase from Amazon would have been $54.
They would have to know this as they are the largest retailers on earth.
Would they be sending me $28 refund, if they found it or I notified
them, or could the "may" kick in here?

Another wonder is it's common practice that one low price might have
high shipping costs, and a higher price for the same item might have no
or low shipping costs. This is true even inside Amazon it's self. This
certainly must effect their pricing and refund policies.

I'll have to look into this, I Know I've turned down Citibank charge
card card solicitations numerous times. I like to keep two cards, one
for in person stuff, and one for online stuff.

[Larry Kraus]

On 12/13/2016 11:21 AM, Jack wrote:

I like to keep two cards, one
> for in person stuff, and one for online stuff.
>

My Citi MasterCard offers "Virtual Account numbers", usable at one
merchant, that are billed to your main account. The virtual card number
is void elsewhere. You set the limits on valid dates and amount when
you request the number online. Perfect for online purchases. I still
maintain a Visa card, just as a backup.

[Leon]

Well I have had better card offers in the past, I used to have a
CitiCards Black Diamond card that offered 5% in points which amounted to
about the equivalent in money. I could order discounted gift cards or
gifts. I also have a GM credit card that pays back 5% if you buy a GM
vehicle. I stopped buying GM in 2004, but I collected $5K+ when I did
buy GM.

I might add the the Citicard also offers extended warranties on
purchased items and also guaranteed refunds/credit if a seller refuses
to issue a credit. There are limits to both but better than nothing.

>
> I note they say they "may" give you a refund if a lower price found in
> 60 days. Does that mean sometimes, even if a better price was found,
> they won't refund you? For example, I bought two earphones from
> Walmart for $26. The same purchase from Amazon would have been $54.
> They would have to know this as they are the largest retailers on earth.
> Would they be sending me $28 refund, if they found it or I notified
> them, or could the "may" kick in here?

No, If you paid Amazon $54 and they found Walmart at $28 within 60 days
of purchase. You also have to submit PDF copies of the bill before 60
days. Then if approved they can send you a check or issue a credit to
your statement for the difference. This may be what you meant to say.
If I find a lower price I will do a screen capture, convert to PDF and
attach to the claim. I do not know if that helps but it is proof that
it happened.

I don't know the particulars but they have brought items, that I have
bought, to my attention before I had a chance to send in copies of the
receipt. This often shows up when you view current purchases before a
statement is generated. I would not rely on them remind you of
purchases that might qualify but it is nice to know that they did catch
some before I entered the information.

>
> Another wonder is it's common practice that one low price might have
> high shipping costs, and a higher price for the same item might have no
> or low shipping costs. This is true even inside Amazon it's self. This
> certainly must effect their pricing and refund policies.

I believe the focus is on the item itself and not the total on the bill.
For instance you may buy 5 items and have one shipping cost. One Item
may qualify while the others do not.

>
> I'll have to look into this, I Know I've turned down Citibank charge
> card card solicitations numerous times. I like to keep two cards, one
> for in person stuff, and one for online stuff.
>

I'm sure if you give them a call they can explain the particulars. But
either way with the Double Cash CC that they offer you at least 2% cash
back on every purchase, 1% when you make the purchase and 1% of the
payment you make.

[Leon]

Yeah, I forgot to mention that. I use the virtual number for one time
purchases on line. I do not think it will work on reoccurring automatic
billing.

But the cards with the new chips do this too. Cashiers don't like the
chip scanner until I explain that it is generating a unique virtual
number that cannot be reused. So use the chip scan vs the slide scan
when possible.

[DerbyDad03]

My guess is that they still don't like it even after you tell them why. I'll
bet they are just being nice to you. ;-)

Why should they care if it is generating a unique virtual number? All they
care about is that the transaction takes longer. They just want their
line to keep moving and the chip scanner slows them down. It's slower
even if the person using chip scanner knows what they are doing. It gets
even worse when the user swipes the card 4 times before realizing it needs
to be inserted or inserts the card the wrong way or pulls it out too soon
or fumbles around trying to find the slot.

https://onsizzle.com/i/can-you-put-your-card-in-the-chip-reader-please-1435466

[woodchucker]

In europe the chip requires a pin to unlock it. The pin is a decryption
to the card, b4 anything is done. I don't know if it then generates a
virtual id.

--
Jeff

[Unquestionably Confused]

I also make use of Citi's virtual account numbers. My understanding is
that you may

1) use them ONLY for online purchases,

2) you set a maximum amount that can be charged on that number, and

3) set a specific expiration date.

I have used them for one-off purchases where I wish to avoid the
"automatic renewals" and I have also used them for recurring payments on
a monthly basis for 3 or 4 months.

It works exactly as I want it to. I only wish other card issuers would
get on the bandwagon and offer it as well.

[Leon]

On 12/14/2016 12:22 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 12:00:26 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 12/14/2016 10:44 AM, Larry Kraus wrote:
>>> On 12/13/2016 11:21 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>
>>> I like to keep two cards, one
>>>> for in person stuff, and one for online stuff.
>>>>
>>>
>>> My Citi MasterCard offers "Virtual Account numbers", usable at one
>>> merchant, that are billed to your main account. The virtual card number
>>> is void elsewhere. You set the limits on valid dates and amount when
>>> you request the number online. Perfect for online purchases. I still
>>> maintain a Visa card, just as a backup.
>>
>>
>> Yeah, I forgot to mention that. I use the virtual number for one time
>> purchases on line. I do not think it will work on reoccurring automatic
>> billing.
>>
>> But the cards with the new chips do this too. Cashiers don't like the
>> chip scanner until I explain that it is generating a unique virtual
>> number that cannot be reused. So use the chip scan vs the slide scan
>> when possible.
>
> My guess is that they still don't like it even after you tell them why. I'll
> bet they are just being nice to you. ;-)

Well actually all of them have commented that they were no longer going
to swipe their cards any more.

> Why should they care if it is generating a unique virtual number? All they
> care about is that the transaction takes longer.

Seriously about 5~7 seconds longer. They apologize to me.

[DerbyDad03]

On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 3:30:26 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 12/14/2016 12:22 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 12:00:26 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> >> On 12/14/2016 10:44 AM, Larry Kraus wrote:
> >>> On 12/13/2016 11:21 AM, Jack wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I like to keep two cards, one
> >>>> for in person stuff, and one for online stuff.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> My Citi MasterCard offers "Virtual Account numbers", usable at one
> >>> merchant, that are billed to your main account. The virtual card number
> >>> is void elsewhere. You set the limits on valid dates and amount when
> >>> you request the number online. Perfect for online purchases. I still
> >>> maintain a Visa card, just as a backup.
> >>
> >>
> >> Yeah, I forgot to mention that. I use the virtual number for one time
> >> purchases on line. I do not think it will work on reoccurring automatic
> >> billing.
> >>
> >> But the cards with the new chips do this too. Cashiers don't like the
> >> chip scanner until I explain that it is generating a unique virtual
> >> number that cannot be reused. So use the chip scan vs the slide scan
> >> when possible.
> >
> > My guess is that they still don't like it even after you tell them why. I'll
> > bet they are just being nice to you. ;-)
>
> Well actually all of them have commented that they were no longer going
> to swipe their cards any more.

I am not given the choice, at least not with my chipped debit card. If the
chip scanner is available, I have to use it. If I scan it, the machine tells
me to insert it.

>
> > Why should they care if it is generating a unique virtual number? All they
> > care about is that the transaction takes longer.
>
> Seriously about 5~7 seconds longer. They apologize to me.

Right, they are being nice. They don't like the extra wait and they don't
like having to apologize especially since it's not their fault. Sure, it's
only 5-7 seconds, but it's 5-7 seconds hundreds of times a day for them.

Imagine if your Domino tool suddenly started taking longer than it used to,
after years of you having developed the muscle and brain memory of how long
that part of your building process takes.

Ill bet you wouldn't like it.

[krw]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 11:44:37 -0500, Larry Kraus <lkr...@att.net>
wrote:

I'm not paranoid about security. It's the bank that's hanging out
there.

[krw]

On Wed, 14 Dec 2016 14:30:12 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 12/14/2016 12:22 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 at 12:00:26 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>>> On 12/14/2016 10:44 AM, Larry Kraus wrote:
>>>> On 12/13/2016 11:21 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I like to keep two cards, one
>>>>> for in person stuff, and one for online stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My Citi MasterCard offers "Virtual Account numbers", usable at one
>>>> merchant, that are billed to your main account. The virtual card number
>>>> is void elsewhere. You set the limits on valid dates and amount when
>>>> you request the number online. Perfect for online purchases. I still
>>>> maintain a Visa card, just as a backup.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, I forgot to mention that. I use the virtual number for one time
>>> purchases on line. I do not think it will work on reoccurring automatic
>>> billing.
>>>
>>> But the cards with the new chips do this too. Cashiers don't like the
>>> chip scanner until I explain that it is generating a unique virtual
>>> number that cannot be reused. So use the chip scan vs the slide scan
>>> when possible.
>>
>> My guess is that they still don't like it even after you tell them why. I'll
>> bet they are just being nice to you. ;-)
>
>Well actually all of them have commented that they were no longer going
>to swipe their cards any more.

Many merchants are already doing this, though it'll be a few years
before the swipe cards are all out of use.

[Leon]

So what 10`15 minutes extra a day? And it is not like the cashiers are
getting a omission.

I takes much much longer on almost every customer to get the correct
pricing in a basket full of goods that do not all scan properly. I
believe the opposite of what you believe.

>
> Imagine if your Domino tool suddenly started taking longer than it used to,
> after years of you having developed the muscle and brain memory of how long
> that part of your building process takes.

Thinking about that, probably not an issue compared to going the old way
with a bench top mortiser.

>
> Ill bet you wouldn't like it.

I really do not know but I do know that if I am at a grocery store I
don't notice the extra time it takes for the 10 customers ahead of me to
go with the chip vs. swipe. More often than not I see them swipe
numerous times and eventually the cashier manually inputs the number.
Or let some one write a check....

[J. Clarke]

In article <235f359b-0eb4-499b-b9cf-e92bf012e465
@googlegroups.com>, teama...@eznet.net says...

Or you put the card in, select debit, and the
machine tells you "please remove card from chip
slot and swipe".

Or you put the card in and the machine, while it
has a chip slot, isn't set up to accept chips.

Or you have to insert the card four times before
it reads the chip successfully.

There's nothing wrong with the chip concept but
the implementation leaves a great deal to be
desired.

[Leon]

I ran into almost all of the problems that you mentioned above about a
year ago as it was implemented in the Houston area but it is pretty
stream lined now. It was mostly the stores waiting until the last
minute to update their hardware/software that created the problems.

Today the chip reader is more reliable than the magnetic swipe.

[DerbyDad03]

For about a month, my daughter and I were texting pictures back and forth
about the various things we saw as the chip readers were rolling out. She
also found stuff (tweets and posts) on social media (where I don't play)
that she would send to me.

Some readers had tape over the reader slot because they weren't ready yet,
some had fancy pre-printed cards in the slot telling users to swipe,
some had humorous notes taped to them because the vendor found the entire
situation somewhat funny.

Some examples...

https://pics.onsizzle.com/chaz-noire-chase-august-america-has-got-to-get-on-3208945.png

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/46/4638fc98f4a51d15aa08c2e13ae1cba2d824c31df8837ff3f74a8bbc814f21d8.jpg

[Leon]

I have witnessed many of those type distractions but that is pretty much
all gone in the Houston area unless the unit is down, including the
swipe slot.

I made a purchase at HD today and paid attention to the wait time, 4
seconds.
I did however wait until the unit indicated to insert the card. Some
people insert the card immediately and have to wait until the cashier
has finished the process. If you count that time plus the 4~7 second
card read time it will appear to take for ever.

[DerbyDad03]

Remember when you could swipe your card as soon as the first item was scanned by the
cashier? You could then put the card away and concentrate on loading scanned items into
your cart and whatever you needed to do to be able to walk away as soon as the cashier
was done.

Ahhh...the good old days. ;-)

[dpb]

On 12/15/2016 5:26 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

> Remember when you could swipe your card as soon as the first item was scanned by the

> cashier? ...

No, I can't say as I do. I never have had a transaction like that other
than at a self-serve gas pump.

[DerbyDad03]

Maybe you never looked...just assumed you couldn't swipe early? (Just asking...not trying to
offend)

Lots of the stores I go to allow it. As an example, the major grocery store chain in my area
lets you swipe your store card (or enter your phone number) then choose your payment
method, swipe your card, select a cash back option, etc. all while the cashier is scanning
your order. That sure saves time, especially when there a slow customer at the machine.

[dpb]

They're the clerk, not I... :)

I trade at very few places that don't just have open accounts; I'm just
not much adept at it I guess...

[DerbyDad03]

I have no idea what that means..

[dpb]

On 12/15/2016 9:47 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

>> I trade at very few places that don't just have open accounts; I'm just
>> not much adept at it I guess...
>
> I have no idea what that means..

On account, just sign and get bill at end of the month...I don't know of
your "tricks of the trade" to try to somehow speed up a process w/
plastic...

[DerbyDad03]

I'm talking about swiping the card at the register in e.g. a grocery store.

Some stores make you wait until the all items have been scanned before you
can swipe your card, others let you swipe, enter your pin, etc. at any time
and then the "system" waits until the cashier is done to present the total
and ask for your acceptance.

If all you need to do is tap "Accept" once the cashier is done the overall
process has been sped up. I know we are talking about seconds each time,
but if there is a long line, the total time savings can actually be minutes
once you add up all of those seconds.

Obviously a pittance in the grand scheme of things...

[dpb]

On 12/16/2016 8:04 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
...

> I'm talking about swiping the card at the register in e.g. a grocery store.

I couldn't think last time was in a grocery store... -- or any retail
outlet-type place, actually, for that matter. :)

> Some stores make you wait until the all items have been scanned before you
> can swipe your card, others let you swipe, enter your pin, etc. at any time
> and then the "system" waits until the cashier is done to present the total
> and ask for your acceptance.
>
> If all you need to do is tap "Accept" once the cashier is done the overall
> process has been sped up. I know we are talking about seconds each time,
> but if there is a long line, the total time savings can actually be minutes
> once you add up all of those seconds.

I an old-school kinda' guy; the cashier is the cashier, I'm the
customer. I hand over the card; that's their job, not mine... :)

[DerbyDad03]

On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 9:32:04 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
> On 12/16/2016 8:04 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> ...
>
> > I'm talking about swiping the card at the register in e.g. a grocery store.
>
> I couldn't think last time was in a grocery store... -- or any retail
> outlet-type place, actually, for that matter. :)
>

Where do you buy your food and other supplies?

[Leon]

I really did not care for that, committing personal information before
knowing what the bill would be. I always wanted to see the total before
starting the payment process. Our local Kroger grocery store had that
feature.

[Leon]

I'm old fashioned too. I don't like sharing information and account
numbers until I am satisfied with the total. Don't like the total?,
walk out. Otherwise you would want to stick around to be sure the
collected information is voided/dumped/ or what ever they would do.

[dpb]

On 12/16/2016 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 9:32:04 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
>> On 12/16/2016 8:04 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> I'm talking about swiping the card at the register in e.g. a grocery store.
>>
>> I couldn't think last time was in a grocery store... -- or any retail
>> outlet-type place, actually, for that matter. :)
>>
>
> Where do you buy your food and other supplies?

...

I take care of the farm, she takes care of the household. I don't ask
her to buy parts for the planter or combine, she doesn't as me to buy food.

[krw]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:14:21 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

Check your bank statements (or online) and dispute any illegitimate
charges. Every once in a while an ATM will blue-screen
mid-transaction. I just make sure SWMBO checks the account to make
sure the transaction didn't hit the bank. Once it did but was backed
out shortly after. The bottom line is to check accounts regularly.
She check it almost daily. Often when I come home, she'll say
something like "what did you buy at Home Depot". Jeez, I *just* left
there! ;-)

[DerbyDad03]

So that was *you* I was behind the other day! You made me late for my
haircut appointment. Not very late, but late just the same. ;-)

[Unknown]

DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in
news:f58d5a3e-22ac-407f...@googlegroups.com:

So now we know what Leon likes to do. He builds beds and makes people
late! *g*

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

[Leon]

On 12/16/2016 11:54 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 10:10:51 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Snip

>>>
>>> Remember when you could swipe your card as soon as the first item was scanned by the
>>> cashier? You could then put the card away and concentrate on loading scanned items into
>>> your cart and whatever you needed to do to be able to walk away as soon as the cashier
>>> was done.
>>>
>>> Ahhh...the good old days. ;-)
>>>
>>
>>
>> I really did not care for that, committing personal information before
>> knowing what the bill would be. I always wanted to see the total before
>> starting the payment process. Our local Kroger grocery store had that
>> feature.
>
> So that was *you* I was behind the other day! You made me late for my
> haircut appointment. Not very late, but late just the same. ;-)
>

;~)

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 12/16/2016 10:10 AM, Leon wrote:

> I really did not care for that, committing personal information before
> knowing what the bill would be. I always wanted to see the total before
> starting the payment process. Our local Kroger grocery store had that
> feature.

I understand your reasoning but I never had a problem with it.

Got a text one morning from my CC company. They asked about a charge.
While on the phone I went on line to check my account. Not only was the
charge in question fraud, but so was the Smashburger $49 charge the day
before. Took only a couple of minutes and now I have a new card.

[Brewster]

On 12/14/16 12:52 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

>
> I also make use of Citi's virtual account numbers. My understanding is
> that you may
>
> 1) use them ONLY for online purchases,
>
> 2) you set a maximum amount that can be charged on that number, and
>
> 3) set a specific expiration date.
>
> I have used them for one-off purchases where I wish to avoid the
> "automatic renewals" and I have also used them for recurring payments on
> a monthly basis for 3 or 4 months.
>
> It works exactly as I want it to. I only wish other card issuers would
> get on the bandwagon and offer it as well.

Discover had that a few years back, perfect for those on line purchases
where you don't quite trust anyone, but they stopped that feature for
some unknown reason.

-BR

[Swingman]

On 12/16/2016 11:46 AM, krw wrote:

> The bottom line is to check accounts regularly.

Bingo ..

As I drummed into my youngest daughter growing up, if you know _exactly_
how much money you have, it makes it harder for someone to take it from
you ... like your bank. for starters.

Even in the analog age, daily ritual has always included balancing,
reconciling and dip-sticking accounts, now, in the
digital/misinformation age it's often more than daily, especially with
the ability to get instant and immediate updates on deposits and
withdrawals on an account via text.

Especially valuable when you have a wife who once thought just because
you had checks left in the checkbook, you had money.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

[Swingman]

On 12/16/2016 11:54 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> So that was *you* I was behind the other day! You made me late for my
> haircut appointment. Not very late, but late just the same. ;-)

Actually was behind someone at the local grocery the other day who
<gasp> ... wrote out a check!?!

I now check to see if the Senior Services courtesy bus in out front
before I go in ...

[krw]

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 09:33:11 -0600, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:

>On 12/16/2016 11:46 AM, krw wrote:
>
>> The bottom line is to check accounts regularly.
>
>Bingo ..
>
>As I drummed into my youngest daughter growing up, if you know _exactly_
>how much money you have, it makes it harder for someone to take it from
>you ... like your bank. for starters.
>
>Even in the analog age, daily ritual has always included balancing,
>reconciling and dip-sticking accounts, now, in the
>digital/misinformation age it's often more than daily, especially with
>the ability to get instant and immediate updates on deposits and
>withdrawals on an account via text.

"Ohh, look how much money I can spend today!"

My wife worked in a bank for many years. It wasn't a all usual that
someone would come in and check their balance to see how much money
they could spend. She'd remind them that the balance didn't include
outstanding checks but that would inevitably lead to blank stares.

>
>Especially valuable when you have a wife who once thought just because
>you had checks left in the checkbook, you had money.

She got that one a lot, too. Seriously.

Of course, when SWMBO complains about some expense, I just tell her
that "it's only money" and "there's more where that come from". Every
couple of weeks it just magically appears in the bank account! ;-)

[krw]

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 09:36:57 -0600, Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:

>On 12/16/2016 11:54 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
>> So that was *you* I was behind the other day! You made me late for my
>> haircut appointment. Not very late, but late just the same. ;-)
>
>
>Actually was behind someone at the local grocery the other day who
><gasp> ... wrote out a check!?!

They still take them? I knew a restaurant owner who would rather take
out-of-state checks than credit cards. He claimed that he lost a lot
less on the checks.

>
>I now check to see if the Senior Services courtesy bus in out front
>before I go in ...

Your house? ;-)

[krw]

They probably found that their losses were less than the cost of the
service.

[Leon]

I have not had a problem either but I would rather waste 4~7 seconds
after reviewing the total to run the card than to have to hope the total
gets corrected or voided correctly. Credits typically take a few days
to show up on my CC's

You are still in complete control of what goes on your card until you
swipe or scan it.

FWIW I have a $35 limit on all of my credit cards. Every time I have a
charge for more than $35 I pretty much immediately get a text indicating
the amount and to who. I also get a daily balance from the CC bank.

A couple of months ago I caught a $500+ charge and an even dollar amount
to Costco. I immediately called and reported the charges to the bank
and then called the store. The even dollar amount was to open an
account and the larger amount was to purchase a Dyson vac. The rep with
Costco was most happy to have that reported so quickly. There was no
chance of them loosing any more to that perp using that account.

[DerbyDad03]

On Saturday, December 17, 2016 at 10:37:17 AM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> On 12/16/2016 11:54 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> > So that was *you* I was behind the other day! You made me late for my
> > haircut appointment. Not very late, but late just the same. ;-)
>
>
> Actually was behind someone at the local grocery the other day who
> <gasp> ... wrote out a check!?!
>

Did she wait until the cashier was done before (s)he took the checkbook
out of his/her pocket(book) and *then* start filling it out?

[dpb]

On 12/17/2016 5:16 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Saturday, December 17, 2016 at 10:37:17 AM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:

...

> Did she wait until the cashier was done before (s)he took the checkbook
> out of his/her pocket(book) and *then* start filling it out?

And if did? Are you really in _that_ much of a hurry. Chill, dood!

[DerbyDad03]

Right back at 'cha, dude.

It was a joke.

https://img0.etsystatic.com/049/0/7505282/il_570xN.710991464_tkbw.jpg

[J. Clarke]

In article <f58d5a3e-22ac-407f-9ee6-
b2763c...@googlegroups.com>,
teama...@eznet.net says...

Haircut appointment? I've never made an
appointment with a barber in my life and if
anybody ever asked me to I'd take my business
elsewhere. I guess I'm old-fashioned--barbers
are first come first served.

Of course after the last guy didn't know what a
"buzz cut" was I started doing my own.

[notbob]

On 2016-12-18, J. Clarke <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Haircut appointment? I've never made an
> appointment with a barber in my life and if
> anybody ever asked me to I'd take my business
> elsewhere. I guess I'm old-fashioned--barbers
> are first come first served.

They're also a buncha assholes and liars.

I went to 6 different barbers in our town to have my beard trimmed.
All gave me some bullshit excuse of why they no longer did beards. I
finally had to have my beard done by a lady in a hair salon.

I did this monthly for 2 yrs until I finally found a male barber that
would do my beard. He did an excellent job, but he was Mexican and
spoke zero English. ;)

nb

[DerbyDad03]

On Sunday, December 18, 2016 at 6:56:00 AM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
> On 2016-12-18, J. Clarke <j.clark...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Haircut appointment? I've never made an
> > appointment with a barber in my life and if
> > anybody ever asked me to I'd take my business
> > elsewhere. I guess I'm old-fashioned--barbers
> > are first come first served.
>
> They're also a buncha assholes and liars.
>
> I went to 6 different barbers in our town to have my beard trimmed.
> All gave me some bullshit excuse of why they no longer did beards. I
> finally had to have my beard done by a lady in a hair salon.
>

Did you have to make an appointment? ;-)

[woodchucker]

How does a small business owner lose on credit cards? They should get
paid no matter what if the card is approved for the purpose.

--
Jeff

[dpb]

On 12/18/2016 8:48 AM, woodchucker wrote:
...

> How does a small business owner lose on credit cards? They should get
> paid no matter what if the card is approved for the purpose.

You don't think the card issuers just willingly "eat" any disputed
charge shown to be valid do you? They "chargeback" those costs to the
merchant for the transaction and the onus is upon the merchant to prove
it wasn't their fault they accepted a card the shouldn't have or
whatever. So, in the end, they may be out the merchandise, the payment
for the merchandise, the original transaction fees plus additional fees
that may be charged by the card issuer for processing the disputed claim.

Accepting them is kinda' like prescription drug disclaimers; if you
really read the fine print you might not ever take the drug despite the
promise of cure.

There are any number of other ways besides...

[Leon]

Not to mention the fixed cost of 2~4% on every charge that the CC
company charges the retailer.