IPE vs Brazillian Walnut
Mike
I am planning on building a deck with hardwood planks this summer. Is
there a difference in Brazilian Walnut and Ipe? Some sources on the
Internet use the names interchangeably and others make a distinction.
I went to the lumber yard and what he calls Brazilian Walnut and Ipe
are certainly different from each other in appearance and price.
I like the looks of either and am looking for whatever would be the
most durable between the two.
What's the difference? and does anyone have a good source?
Mike
Nova
I've seen both Imbuia and Ipe referred to as Brazilian walnut.
Here's are links to a web site that gives the properties of each.
http://www.windsorplywood.com/tropical_woods/imbuia.html
http://www.windsorplywood.com/tropical_woods/ipe.html
My choice would be Ipe.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
Leon
Brazilian Walnut.
It is reported by web sites that specialize in deck building that Ipe has a
life expectancy of about 50 years left untreated outside. Ipe when sawn or
planed will emit a brown saw dust and a yellowy-green powder. Ipe is easy
on your bare feet as rounded corners do not splinter. Ipe is reported by
the same sites to have a fire rating that is the same as concrete...That
said, I know it will burn but you have to try to get it to burn. You will
have to predrill Ipe to attach with screws. As for a source, Lumber
Liquidators has Ipe as do dozens of deck companies and lumber yards in
Houston.
"Mike" <mi...@removethis.datawest.net> wrote in message
news:r4ubavk76l72e7ihb...@4ax.com...
Todd Stock
of the pros posting on FH's Breaktime Forums (Everwood) - should be some folks
in New Orleans and Houston that are direct importers as well. You can find FSC
and non-FSC sources as well.
Brazilian walnut seems to be the term of choice for interior flooring (always
kiln dried), with Ipe used for decking (should be air dried). Just last week, a
floor contractor was quizzing the sales guys at my local yard on what to use for
nailing Brazilian Walnut...seems like the guy was low bid on a 5000 sf job in
Potomac (aka Pretentious, MD), and had just found out that floor staplers would
not touch the stuff. When the sales guy told him that the flooring was also
known as Ipe (apparently the guy had done some deck work at some point), I could
see the wheels turning in his head as profit became loss on the job due to the
higher labor.
Large differences in price and quality out there...check with local
distributors, then call the regional/national guys for pricing. I found high
grade air dried 5/4 x 6 stock locally for about $2.15/lf delivered; Advantage in
Buffalo, NY gave me a much better price, even after freight (probably because
there was 22" of snow on the ground, it was early Feb, and the shippers were
working for cost to keep their crews in harness). I could also have driven four
hours to Norfolk and paid $1.40 per lf; however, delivery was worth the extra
cost. This was for identical grades, although Advantage had some of the 22'
stock that I wanted for the main deck (22 x 18) as well as the shorter stuff for
the other two sections and steps.
Lesson here: In the NE, buy decking off-season (Oct-late Jan/early Feb)
I like buying locally, but in this case, the difference in price was over $1000
including 5% MD sales tax.
FYI - I have not seen anything over a 25 year warranty for Ipe decking, although
I understand that it should last 40-50 years with just spring and fall scrubbing
(no pressure washing, and mildew/algae does not like to grow on it).
At about 1/3 of the way through a 600 sf deck with 5/4 x 6 Ipe...
- Stock is amazingly uniform in dimensioning, and pretty much free of serious
warp or bow; however, even a 1/4" bow in an 8' length will take two Bow Wrenches
and a bunch of clamps to straighten out.
- Did I mention Bow Wrenches? - get at least two, or rent one of those circus
strong men to hold things in place.
- Plan on 15% waste (mainly from cutting stock in 2 foot multiples to length -
this does give you plenty of offcuts for Ipe bungs).
- Tapered plug cutters hold up pretty well in Ipe if used at lowest speed in a
quality drill press - the precut save time, but don't fit as tightly.
- Edge fastening with EB-TY or Ipe Clip systems is less work than face fastening
with countersinks and plugs. In either case, top quality SS fasteners (Swan
Secure or similar) are necessary, and even these will cam out far more often
than expected. Plan on a fastener cost of $30/100 sf for bunged screws and
about $80/100 sf for clips when framed on 24" centers and using 6" wide stock.
If the deck has a number of small areas, or if you are picture framing the
perimeter of the deck, by extra screws, as you'll run out of them earlier than
the clips due to the requirement to face fasten on edges and ends.
- Ipe Clips come in light gray and medium brown, while EB-TYs are black; the
only difference I can see is if you want to take the deck natural, the black or
brown fasteners might be a bit more visible after 4-5 years than the gray; the
gray stands out on a brown deck. The Ipe Clips are circular, and require less
precision in cutting the biscuit slot than the #20 sized EB-TYs, but the EB-TYs
are more widely available and have a longer history of use.
- Plan on replacing or sharpening HSS tooling about every 100 sf of deck (drill
bits/ countersinks). Carbide stuff will last a lot longer. It's worth having
three drills available, or a quick change tip system. If you go the
quick-change route, keep in mind that the PC kit won't take a standard quick
change countersink from another company, while the DeWalt and Insty-Bit will.
- A 3/8" forstner bit makes a very clean countersunk hole for face fastening,
but be prepared to hone the cutting edges a couple of times over the course of a
project. Even after cutting the hole with the Forstner, you'll still need to
cut the bottom of the hole to shape and pilot-hole with a countersink.
- A 1/8" radius roundover bit in a laminate trimmer is the ticket for finishing
cut ends and post notches.
- Wood needs to be stored out of sun and rain, but outside near building site.
Plan on resealing all ends upon arrival and after it's cut to length (Anchor
Seal or similar). Try to stack stock as it will be used - restacking 3800 lbs
of wood each time you need an 18' length takes some time.
- See if your supplier can provide lengths that match what you need (e.g., if
diagonal is 16 feet, see if he can provide enough 16 footers to handle the full
length section of the deck (plan on paying a premium if you won't take randoms
from 8' to 18').
- Wood needs to be finished with an oil or water-based moisture control coating
as soon possible after it goes on the deck. Messmers Plus HW or Penefin HW seem
to be the ticket if the deck will be maintained, or Flood Seasonite if you are
intent on allowing it to weather. If you don't hit it with some type of finish
and the deck gets strong sun, plan on putting up with some fine surface checking
and some end checks.
- Obviously, all bungs need to be glued in and trimmed before finishing - I
apply bungs last thing at night, then trim, sand, and apply Messmers the next
morning before the sun starts cooking the deck. Poly Urethane glue (Gorilla
Glue) works fine, as does epoxy. The urethane sands/planes a bit easier than
the epoxy, but I'll use epoxy to glue up my 8" x 8" post cap blanks.
- Save even your small offcuts for bungs and other stuff - Ipe is about three
times harder than red oak, and looks to be great for soles of wood planes or
other tooling (scratch stocks), based on some of Steve Knight's comments. In
any case, the stuff probably checks less than lignum and is far cheaper.
Where I've mentioned brand names or dealers, I have no connection other than
satisfaction with product or supplier, etc.
Wow - glad that's done, eh?
Mike
wrote:
Awesome, thanks a bunch. Very generous of you to share the type of
information that comes only through experience.
[..]
>- Plan on 15% waste (mainly from cutting stock in 2 foot multiples to length -
>this does give you plenty of offcuts for Ipe bungs).
What's a bung?
>- Plan on replacing or sharpening HSS tooling about every 100 sf of deck (drill
>bits/ countersinks). Carbide stuff will last a lot longer. It's worth having
>three drills available, or a quick change tip system. If you go the
What's HSS tooling?
>- Wood needs to be stored out of sun and rain, but outside near building site.
How long to let it acclimate before i start building? I am in
Colorado and it is extremely dry here.
Mike
Todd Stock
A bung is a boatbuilding term for plugs - sorry - old habit! Essentially, I drill a
3/8" deep hole with the forstner bit, then pilot and cut the countersink with a #8
countersink/bit assembly. Following the screw being set (torque setting of 10 on a
Makita 14.4), I add a drop of Gorilla Glue and tap a (plug) bung home. Remember to
wet the bungs/plugs before use with poly.
HSS = high speed steel (like drill bits, countersinks, etc.
As to acclimation, I'd plan on at least a couple weeks - not a problem if you are
doing the foundation and framing work (took me about three weeks to get all the
pre-decking stuff done). If you can handle the cost, buying from a local
distributor with plenty of stock on hand will probably get you pretty well seasoned
stock.
As I indicated in the earlier post, it's worth spending some time recoating the ends
of the stock with a wax-based sealant, and it will give you a chance to sticker the
wood and give it a close look. After stickering, I covered the pile with poly tarps
held off the top and sides by some 2x stock - plenty of ventilation, but no direct
sun or rain.
You might also consider going to the Fine Homebuilding 'Breaktime' site and checking
with some of the pros in your region as to preferred suppliers, best practices, etc.
- my experience limited to this one job, while some of the guys on Breaktime have
done dozens of hardwood decks. I've found that they are almost always willing to do
anything possible to help out a talented amateur interested in doing quality work.
The tip about Seasonite was one I got from one of the guys, as well as the lead on
Advantage Lumber. I used Seasonite on some of the lower deck, but was redirected by
the SWMBO after I foolishly left some stock with a coat of Messmers in plain
view...so much for letting the deck go gray.
Good luck!
Todd