OT: Water heater question

[Gramps' shop]

I've detected some leakage around the base of our hot water heater. It's a 75-gallon Rheem and is at least 10 years old. I suspect it's time to replace. Any of you have experience with a tankless system? How fast does a tankless system deliver hot water?

Larry

[Michael]

On Thursday, July 10, 2014 3:13:53 PM UTC-5, Gramps' shop wrote:
> I've detected some leakage around the base of our hot water heater. It's a 75-gallon Rheem and is at least 10 years old. I suspect it's time to replace. Any of you have experience with a tankless system? How fast does a tankless system deliver hot water?
>
>
>
> Larry

I thought about going tankless but I expect some gratitude when I install something.

[-MIKE-]

Like any water heater, it depends on how close it is the the faucet you
are using.
If it's installed across the wall from the kitchen sink, for example,
you will have hot water almost immediately after the cooled water runs
out of the pipes.

There's not much water running through the heat exchanger inside them
and it heats it extremely fast.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

[G. Ross]

Gramps' shop wrote: > I've detected some leakage around the base of our hot water heater. It's a 75-gallon Rheem and is at least 10 years old. I suspect it's time to replace. Any of you have experience with a tankless system? How fast does a tankless system deliver hot water? > Larry When we lived in Sicily there was an antique one installed in the outside laundry room (thankfully). When you turned the hot water on that thing fired up like an F-16 and ran until the hot water was shut off or the propane tank--bombola--was empty. Worked fine. In Japan there are a lot of them. They are more modern and smaller. Usually you would see a little one hanging on the wall over the kitchen sink. Never saw an electric one but I'm sure they exist. GW Ross Great minds have purposes, little minds have wishes - W. Irving

[Lew Hodgett]

"Gramps' shop" wrote:

>I've detected some leakage around the base of our hot water heater.
>It's a 75-gallon Rheem and is at >least 10 years old. I suspect it's
>time to replace. Any of you have experience with a tankless system?

-----------------------------------------------------------
Would have installed one on the boat when it was time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

>How fast does a tankless system deliver hot water?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
How close is the "load" to the heater?

How soon you get hot water is dependant on how much cold water
you have to push out of the way to get to the hot water.

Same as with your existing set up.

Lew

[Leon]

On 7/10/2014 3:13 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
> I've detected some leakage around the base of our hot water heater. It's a 75-gallon Rheem and is at least 10 years old. I suspect it's time to replace. Any of you have experience with a tankless system? How fast does a tankless system deliver hot water?
>
> Larry
>

The tank could be leaking from anywhere, water is going to show up at
the bottom because of that gravity thing. ;~) So check the inlet and
outlet pipes first. Gas water heaters tend to fail sooner than electric
because of the greater extreme heating conditions that the tank must
endure. The bottoms of the tanks are exposed to several hundreds of
degrees temperatures. Electrics don't get much hotter than the water
temperature at the faucet and the heating elements are in the water vs.
outside of the bottom of the tank.

Assuming gas, some units and or building codes require special venting
material. Apparently not any old vent will work in all cases. IIRC
Swingman had one installed in one of his homes that he built and the
vent material IIRC had to be stainless steel. And IIRC that ran about
$100 per foot.


So you should for sure look into what exactly the cost will be installed
before taking the leap. It may never pay for itself in savings if the
unit runs in to the thousands of dollars, installed.

I do not think they offer any advantage other than energy savings and an
endless supply of hot water.

Delivery of hot water will be relative to the distance the heated water
will have to travel. You are only changing how the water is heated and
when, not how quickly the water will be delivered. That is of course
assuming your old water heater is not restricting the water flow.

Now with having said that, immediately after install you will get hot
water much sooner from a tankless than from a new tank type heater
which will have to heat the entire tank first.

[Leon]

On 7/10/2014 4:27 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 7/10/14, 3:13 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
>> I've detected some leakage around the base of our hot water heater.
>> It's a 75-gallon Rheem and is at least 10 years old. I suspect it's
>> time to replace. Any of you have experience with a tankless system?
>> How fast does a tankless system deliver hot water?
>>
>> Larry
>>
>
> Like any water heater, it depends on how close it is the the faucet you
> are using.
> If it's installed across the wall from the kitchen sink, for example,
> you will have hot water almost immediately after the cooled water runs
> out of the pipes.
>
> There's not much water running through the heat exchanger inside them
> and it heats it extremely fast.
>
>

I think you know what you are talking about but just as much water goes
through a tankless water and its heat exchanger as does a tank type
water heater. The the big difference is that you are not heating water
that is not currently being used and only the water that will be used at
a given point is being heated.

[-MIKE-]

The physical makeup of the two are so different, it's hard to accurately
compare.
With the tank heater, there are two relatively small elements or flame
to heat, say, 50 gallons of water. With the tankless, there are probably
only a couple gallons capacity in the heat exchanger, with the "element"
or flame completely surrounding all the water almost by the drop. Think
of a car radiator and the air flowing through it. I would guess the
heat to volume ration is probably 1000:1.

[Leon]

OK, we both know what we are talking about, I think. ;~) It was you
mentioning that there's not much water running through the heat exchanger.
I think what you meant to say was that the heat exchanger does not have
much water in it at one time, unlike a tank type water heater.

[-MIKE-]

Oh, knock it off! Where's the beer?

[Leon]

Is it Ta-pa-to Or Po-ma-ta? ;~) Beah? Did you say Beah? LOL

[hub...@ccanoemail.com]

I'd first check the tank warranty - with a friendly Rheem dealer ..
... 10 years is a very early failure ! Mine - on propane - is ~ 23
years old and going strong !
In the past - I've discovered secret 10 year warranty on my Ford
Taurus front springs ... and the SS tub on my clothes washer ..
John T.



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[Leon]

On 7/10/2014 8:48 PM, hub...@ccanoemail.com wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 13:13:53 -0700 (PDT), "Gramps' shop"
> <lawrence....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I've detected some leakage around the base of our hot water heater.
>> It's a 75-gallon Rheem and is at least 10 years old. I suspect it's time to replace.
>> Any of you have experience with a tankless system?
>> How fast does a tankless system deliver hot water?
>> Larry
>
>
> I'd first check the tank warranty - with a friendly Rheem dealer ..
> ... 10 years is a very early failure ! Mine - on propane - is ~ 23
> years old and going strong !

It also depends on the water if minerals in the water quickly eat away
the anode rod the tank will fail early. You probably have great water.

[Puckdropper at dot]

"Gramps' shop" <lawrence....@gmail.com> wrote in
news:9fc5069a-8a5b-4834...@googlegroups.com:

Somebody asked this question a few days ago on the Home Shop Machinist
forum. In summary, they weren't too fond of the tankless systems:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/63806-OT-Hot-Water-Heater-
Replacement

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On 11 Jul 2014 02:32:54 GMT, Puckdropper

I sure would not get stuck with one if I had any choice in the
matter.

[Mike Marlow]

I have only limited experience with tankless water heaters, so others here
will likely be more authoritative voices, but I'll at least share my
experience. We installed an electric tankless water heater in a church we
used to attend. Seemed smart - no point in keeping water heated for all of
those days that nobody was even in there to use it. What we found was that
the heater was very inconsistent in how it made hot water. We spent hours
with the manufacturer on the phone etc. trying to get the system balanced,
as the flow rate is the most important aspect of whether it makes hot water
or not. We'd get it so that it began making hot water instantly and
everything seemed fine, only to discover that if somebody flushed a toilet,
you wouldn't get hot water in the sink to wash your hands - the incoming
water flow was diverted between the toilet and the heater. Other times -
even when no other water draw was present, you'd have to shut the hot water
faucet and open it again - sometimes a few times, to get the heater to
"fire".

This was probably not a top of the line, or even a middle of the road unit.
I suspect it was a cheap unit. Better units may perform better, but this is
my limited experience with the things. Point of use units may perform
better than system wide units, but then the price gets crazy.

I ended up doing a fair amount of internet research and found that the issue
with flow rate seems to be a common issue. Many references to having to
shut off the faucet and open it again to try to get the system to "fire".

For me, I decided I'd never put one in my house.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Leon]

Good To know. Thanks Mike.

[Mike Marlow]

Baxter wrote:
> "Gramps' shop" <lawrence....@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:9fc5069a-8a5b-4834...@googlegroups.com:
>

> Check out Hybrid:
> http://tinyurl.com/7o9jn26

Good to have that link, but it looks like so many things from Consumer
Reports - it just never puts the rubber on the road. They tease you with
some thoughts, lead you with some considerations, but never come out and say
anything. I always seem to find myself feeling like I never really gained
anything from Consumer Reports.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Swingman]

On 7/10/2014 3:13 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
> I've detected some leakage around the base of our hot water heater. It's a 75-gallon Rheem and is at least 10 years old. I suspect it's time to replace. Any of you have experience with a tankless system? How fast does a tankless system deliver hot water?

FWIW: I've have planned, and effected, the installation of "whole house"
tankless water heaters in three of the new homes I've built in the past
ten years.

Your success depends upon a number of factors: the size of the house and
distance of the unit(s) from fixtures; the number and type of hot water
fixtures (flow rates must be determined for each fixture); the type of
plumbing allowed in your jurisdiction for code purposes; type of unit
(gas or electric); the brand; and, most importantly, the design, and
accurate implementation of the design at installation.

Biggest issue with any hot water system is the time from the demand to
the delivery. Distance is obviously a big factor, as well as any
intervening devices in series (point A, through point B, to C, etc.).

Plumbing methods, utilizing a manifold distribution system (PEX makes
this much simpler) can make a big difference in the time of delivery as
it insures the shortest possible linear 'source to demand point' delivery.

It is my experience that, with whole house units, and without a manifold
system in place, and if you have more than one bath, kitchen, and
utility room with long runs of in series piping, your best results and
satisfaction may require intervening auxiliary tanks and pumps, in some
case multiples.

At this stage of the game I would steer away from electric units in the US.

With gas units, which must be vented to the outside, location of the
unit is very important as the vent must be double-walled stainless and
runs about plus $60/ft, installation not included. This can double the
price of the equipment itself, and the labor/material needed to install

Rinnai is a good unit and worth the price. I've also installed one GE
unit, at the homeowner's request, with no trouble thus far.

Use a dedicated tankless dealer for design and installation, not a
plumbing company that does it as a sideline.

One of the exercises that must be performed is to calculate actual flow
requirements of each and every hot water fixture in the house, the
expected delivery temperature, AND, very importantly, _the ambient
temperature of the water fed to the tankless unit_ coming into the house.

With a good gas unit, proper design of the piping system, and a
knowledgeable dealer who provides the design and installation, you can
get satisfactory results with on demand 'whole house' units.

My home owner's love them and have had no issues thus far, but it takes
a good deal of planning, dedicated supervision of all details, and thus
a good deal more expense than a regular hot water heater in order to
install, and maintain, a tankless system.

Not for the faint of heart...

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

[Mike Marlow]

Now - that says it all far better than my own limited experience attempted
to communicate.

--

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[Casper]

"Mike Marlow" <mmarlo...@windstream.net> was heard to mutter:

Also they need to be cleaned at least every two years or mineral
buildup can become a problem.

I love the way our electric provider shows us how much of our electric
goes towards heating water when there is nothing on the house to
actually capture that data. I have told them to stuff their bogus
statistics and focus on cost-savings they could pass along to the
consumer.

I expect to be replacing my tank with a tankless. I have two friends
in line for that and one already switched over. One is adding small
heaters under sink(s) since they have a longer line to travel and want
hot instantly from turn on. I have shorter lines and expect it to be
the same as it is now, minus the electirc cost (going gas).

[nailsh...@aol.com]

On Friday, July 11, 2014 12:42:14 PM UTC-5, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:

SNIP of excellent information grounded in experience

> > My home owner's love them and have had no issues thus far, but it
>
> > takes a good deal of planning, dedicated supervision of all details, and
>
> > thus a good deal more expense than a regular hot water heater in order to
>
> > install, and maintain, a tankless system.
>
> >
>
> > Not for the faint of heart...

Well, that's it in a nutshell. Show's over...

I don't know know how that could have been explained better or more succinctly. All of the things mentioned are vital components of a successful installation of a tankless unit. You cannot miss one of them.

My compatriots in the repair/maintenance/remodel business have all ventured into the tankless arena as retrofits. NONE have been happy. Not one. The installations were not difficult, but the recommended location of the unit mean in some cases structure modification. (Read: <<much>> more money than an "in and out" water heater replacement.) Don't forget as well that these tankless units are electrical, and chances are you will have to run a circuit to the actual location of the unit wherever you place them to make sure you get enough power to the unit but also to comply with your local codes. Oh boy... I know what I pay my electrician... and a new circuit or two with new wiring and plugs crawling through and attic...

You cannot economically repair these units (if at all).

It was found by my amigos that in some cases you needed more than one unit (requiring more structure modification) to make sure hot water was delivered in a timely fashion.

They don't do well with the enormously hard water of South Texas.

For an average of about $1000 each for the unit without installation of one or more units , I don't think they are worth it in a previously plumbed house (unlike Karl's preplanned house). Think this through; if new circuitry is needed, wall modifications and subsequent sheetrock repairs are needed (think demo, modification then replacement and matching finishes) and then a more difficult installtion is required, you can easily see that this simple chance can cost a couple of grand. My amigos that have put in single unit replacements have priced them out at about four grand out the door for one unit. I can see that; $1000 for a tankless unit and $500 for a new 30 amp circuit with city inspections just to start out. Then new plumbing run to the unit to get to the new, recommended location of the unit. More cost too, if it is determined that two units would be better than one.

My fellow contractors and me are advising to turn down the heat to the lowest temp you can stand, wrap the tank with insulation, turn the water heater off when you go on vacation, and if the water has a long way to go to get hot water to a bathroom or kitchen, get a small water heater and stick it where you can.

Compare that to our local cost to replace a whole house water heater. Locally, we get anywhere from $800 to about $1600 to replace a unit. I all depends on access, permit fees, required code compliance updates by the city (licensed only plumbers or homeowners can replace water heaters, no one else - the fine is $2500 if caught!). This includes stainless inlet/outlet pipes, new lead free ball valve cut offs, new stainless pop off line, stand, aluminum leak pan, alert system, and if needed, bringing the venting up to code. It also includes haul away of the old unit.

The last two retros I just finished averaged about $1100 for everything, and I was middle of the pack in pricing. How in the world could you save money on your lifetime if you retrofitted a tankless? Look at the payout. Unless new in a designed system, absolutely not worth it.

> Now - that says it all far better than my own limited experience attempted
>
> to communicate.

Right? This group is lucky Karl is still here!

Robert

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 7/11/2014 12:39 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

>>
>> Check out Hybrid:
>> http://tinyurl.com/7o9jn26
>
> Good to have that link, but it looks like so many things from Consumer
> Reports - it just never puts the rubber on the road. They tease you with
> some thoughts, lead you with some considerations, but never come out and say
> anything. I always seem to find myself feeling like I never really gained
> anything from Consumer Reports.
>

Agree on the CR thing.

As for the heaters, I don't have any personal experience, but they are a
hot topic on other newsgroups such as alt.home.repair

From what I've read, they are not a simple alternative at replacement
time of traditional tanks. Any possible saving in the next ten years
can be exceeded by the cost of adding enough utilities to support it.
Especially electric powered. In northern areas with cold inlet
temperatures they may not get hot enough for your needs.

Do take plenty of time to investigate the alternatives and what will
work best in your situation. Depending on your heating system, an
indirect fired tank may be a good solution.

[Puckdropper at dot]

"Mike Marlow" <mmarlo...@windstream.net> wrote in
news:lpofkm$m8j$1...@dont-email.me:

It would seem to me that an obvious solution to the inconsistent water
flow and temperature would be to put in a small insulated buffer tank.
When the call for hot water comes, the demand is satisfied initially from
the small buffer tank (5 or 10 gallons?) and the on-demand works to keep
the buffer tank full.

Did I just describe a "hybrid" water heater?

My little point-of-use unit has issues with flow rate as well. The way
it's designed, the flow rate of the water controls the temperature. If
you get just enough flow to turn it on, the water comes out extremely
hot. Also, if you start mixing in cold water it's easy to get to the
point where there's not enough hot flow to keep the unit on.

Admittedly, this is an older unit (it's at least 7 years old, probably
closer to 10). We are also about 100' as the crow flies from the well
pressure tank, so add another 50' or so for pipe runs.

[Lew Hodgett]

One thing that hasn't been taken into consideration is the hardness
of the water.

Hard water can plug up piping components when heated.

A water softener can do wonders.

Just got to keep feeding salt pellets.

Lew



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[Dr. Deb]

On Thursday, July 10, 2014 3:13:53 PM UTC-5, Gramps' shop wrote:
> I've detected some leakage around the base of our hot water heater. It's a 75-gallon Rheem and is at least 10 years old. I suspect it's time to replace. Any of you have experience with a tankless system? How fast does a tankless system deliver hot water?
>
>
>

> Larry

As to your question. Like some of the others, we used one in Europe. We also have a small one in our shed. The real question is, "How are you going to power it? Gas or electricity?" If you go gas, you will get a better flow through (higher volume at higher temps). If you go electricity, you will need a very large breaker and service. The one in our shed is, as I said, a small one and uses a 60 amp breaker and wire for the same.

Where it me, I would go tankless, but gas, if I could. If not, you might seriously consider putting a unit near the sources of use. (i.e., if you have two bathrooms, put a small one near the secondary bathroom and a larger one for the utility room, kitchen and other bathroom.)

Short term, a replacement water heater might be cheaper. Long term, the tankless will pay for itself.

[Gramps' shop]

As always, a thoughtful and helpful discussion. The comments from Karl and Robert were particularly helpful. I've decided to stay with the tank, but will downsize to 50 gals as it's just the two of us plus the dogs (and they don't use hot water).

Larry

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 11 Jul 2014 13:53:51 -0400, Casper <cas...@ghostmail.cc>
wrote:

I have long advocated small "point of use" electric water heaters to
provide "instant hot water" for convenience. They can be on a timer to
make sure you have hot water on demand when you want it and still save
power by not maintaining hot water when you don't need it - or to only
run the heater in "off peak" if you are on time of use billing like we
are in Ontario. The payback in not putting 10 gallons of water down
the drain waiting for it to get hot can actually be pretty quick,
depending on the cost of municipal water and sewage services.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On 11 Jul 2014 22:04:35 GMT, Puckdropper

By "point of use" I mean a standard small tank heater -something
like 5 gallons close to the point of use. In a bathroom at the far end
of the house from the water heater, for instance - or an upper floor
bathroom. Have it come on 2 hours before you get up so you have hot
water to shave and shower- and let it shut off when you go to work -
then come on an hour before you come home to make sure you have
available hot water to "freshen up". A well insulated tank will
maintain the water temperature fairly well with the power off if no
water is drawn, so you are never reheating an entire tank from cold.

[nailsh...@aol.com]

Really?

OK... so let us say that you get "point of use" 5-6 gallon water heater to run in addition to your regular unit to save money and use the timer scheme. I'll bite.

BTW Larry, a 40 gallon with do for two people regardless of those pesky dogs taking so many showers!) as he is looking at now. Check the posted energy ratings and projected cost of use on the tanks and you MIGHT see a bit more savings over the life of the heater. Probably not too much, but it depends on local energy costs.

So, Larry is in for $1000 for his straight replacement, give or take a couple of hundred depending on his site conditions, code requirements, permitting fees, old tank disposal fees, etc.

Check the prices of a 5-6 gallon water heater and you will see they are about the same cost as a 40 gallon, about $275 to $300. Add fittings, about $325. You will be giving up closet space somewhere to place this unit, and will need to install it according to your local codes (read: permitted job since it is new). You will be cutting into walls to splice into the hot water system, blocking off the flow from the rest of the house so you don't get a cold mix, then splicing into the supply line to get water to the fixture. Would you do that for your shower, too? Double the plumbing cost, so I would say about $750 for cutting into the walls, cutting into the pipes to splice in the new supply route and head off the old supply, and install the new water heater. Add more if you are going to try to tie in the shower as you will have to do supply it as you did to the lavatory.

You are now about a $1000, $1100 bucks. But, you now need to have your electrician run a 30 amp circuit to this new unit (you weren't thinking of piping in gas with your remark of the unit turning off and on by itself). Do you have room in your circuit box? How hard will it be to run a new circuit across the house or upstairs through the walls to get it there? My electrician could probably do something like that for about $1500 or so. Don't scream bullshit! Remember, <<10ga>> copper wire all the way, a new 30 amp breaker, a new 220v plug/box/cover and a pigtail as well as a 30 amp service rated timer have to be purchased and someone will be fishing wire and crawling through attic insulation to get it where you need it. Fishing 10ga down a wall is no picnic.

Will you be repairing the demolition you did yourself to allow access to your piping yourself? Maybe if you have the time, the inclination and the skills. (I can do anything on site with wood but I really suck at tape/float, myself.) You might need to add a little to your estimate for sheetrock repair, wood work and paint on top of the plumbing and electrical. $500?

With you doing the demo, cleanup and replacement yourself, you are going to be in at about $2600 or so for the "point of use" system.

How long would it take you to accrue the kind of savings you anticipate to get to $2600 for its recovery? Remember too, there is NO consideration for the extra annual power usage for the POU unit, and even if it is just on 6 hours a day that is still a helluva hit for an electrically powered water heater.

If you would, please take a minute and explain how long in real numbers it would take to pay off this machine, and don't forget a probably $ 20 a month ($240 a year) for its operation (that is a very minute .66 a day, only .33 per cycle!)when explaining.

My HUD classes told me that in a retrofit for energy saving updates, they should all pay out in 3 to 5 years or they aren't worth doing for a number of reasons. A water heater is an appliance, and it falls in the 5 year category. So if we take your project at $2600 (remember, you do he demo/rebuild/job cleaning) and add in $1200 for energy use in the same period (the cost would never go up, right?) we now have a $3800 bill for a five year payback number.

That's $760 a year. Really? That is almost $65 a month in hard cost expense for five years. That means your investment wouldn't pay off unless it was actually saving you that much every single month for FIVE years before you realize one dollar of gain to recover your investment.

How is that supposed to work? You have seen all my numbers and how I arrived at them. Seriously, I would like to see how you arrived at the point of thinking this is a good idea and how you justify your dollars spent vs. the savings gained. I would love to the "point of use" scheme justified for an existing home.

Robert

[Leon]

Something I did to get hot water to the faucet more quickly through
galvanized pipes was turn the heat up at the heater. One of the reasons,
especially with those heavy pipes, that it took longer to get hot water to
the faucet was because the heavy pipes absorbed the heat from the water.
Hotter water cooled less getting to the faucet and heated the pipes more
quickly. Yes we had to be more careful with the hotter water. Did I
notice an increase in electricity usage? Not that I recall. You use less
hotter water than not so hot water.

[Leon]

"Lew Hodgett" <sails...@verizon.net> wrote:
> One thing that hasn't been taken into consideration is the hardness
> of the water.
>
> Hard water can plug up piping components when heated.

Heated or not hard water plugs pipes and valves equally. Think about the
shut off valve to your toilet. We had no water softener at our house for
the first 20 years that we lived in the house, new when we bought. I
turned the water off at the main valve because the shut off valves at the
toilets were crusty and difficult to close when replacing toilet valve
parts.
Two years after installing a water softener the shut off valves worked like
new. As a bonus I did not have to replace the toilet valves as often
after installing the softener. And the faucets and drains no longer had to
be cleaned to remove the white mineral deposits.

>
> A water softener can do wonders.

In many ways, use less soap too.

>
> Just got to keep feeding salt pellets.

Not that big of a deal. If I did not water my yard with softened water I
probably would have to put in 3-4 bags a year. As it is I do that twice a
year. Our first softener was a Culligan softener that regenerated twice a
week. That was way way way too often. In our new house I bought a
different brand softener that measures water flow and regenerates after
somewhere around 3,000 gal. IIRC. So instead of 8 times a month it is now
only 1-2 times a month when I am not watering the yard.

[Swingman]

On 7/12/2014 3:00 AM, nailsh...@aol.com wrote:
> That's $760 a year. Really? That is almost $65 a month in hard cost expense for five years. That means your investment wouldn't pay off unless it was actually saving you that much every single month for FIVE years before you realize one dollar of gain to recover your investment.

And that's being generous. I could be way off but the numbers I've run a
few times in the past for various clients and situations indicated a
realistic payback expectation of 15 to 20 years.

Still, discussing that fact with clients doesn't seem to have an impact,
so my conclusion can only be that going tankless to some folks is
culturally equivalent to driving a Pious... er, Prius.

It can certainly be a selling point, depending upon the socioeconomic of
the neighborhood.

[ath...@wind.net]

On Thu, 10 Jul 2014 15:07:05 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
<sails...@verizon.net> wrote:

>
>"Gramps' shop" wrote:
>
>>I've detected some leakage around the base of our hot water heater.
>>It's a 75-gallon Rheem and is at >least 10 years old. I suspect it's
>>time to replace. Any of you have experience with a tankless system?

>-----------------------------------------------------------
>Would have installed one on the boat when it was time.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------

>>How fast does a tankless system deliver hot water?

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>How close is the "load" to the heater?
>
>How soon you get hot water is dependant on how much cold water
>you have to push out of the way to get to the hot water.
>
>Same as with your existing set up.
>
>Lew
>

A friend just went through the details of tank-less versus tank type
and the deciding factor in going with a tank was that the heater only
raised the temperature of the water a fixed amount and his well water
was too cold to get really hot water. 95F - 100F was about all he
could expect.

Jim

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Lots of 15 amp 115 volt nominally 5 gallon water heaters available.
Home despot has Ariston Model # GL4.0 4 gallon 1500 watt for $250. It
will fit under the vanity sink. In my house it would require pulling
the vanity, opening the wall and 1 sq ft of flooring, and less than 6
feet of copper pipe to service both the sink and shower ( the shower
would still have about 12 feet of half inch copper full of room
temperature water to purge - a lot less than 45 feet currently
required) - and mine is a SMALL house.
Adding another 15 amp circuit in would be relatively simple as the
washroom is at the end of the house with the electrical service. It's
a job my Dad would have done in a couple hours as an experienced
electrician - and my old panel (soon to be replaced with a breaker
panel) still has room for at least 2 more circuits. Less than 50 feet
of 14/2 or 12/2 would do the job - not prohibitively expensive. I've
seriously considered doing it but we'll likely be moving in the next 5
years if we can find a bungalow we like - and in a Bungalow it's a
whole lot easier yet to accomplish.

[Markem]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2014 01:00:54 -0700 (PDT), "nailsh...@aol.com"
<nailsh...@aol.com> wrote:

>How is that supposed to work? You have seen all my numbers and how I arrived at them.
>Seriously, I would like to see how you arrived at the point of thinking this is a good idea and how you justify your dollars spent vs. the savings gained.
>I would love to the "point of use" scheme justified for an existing home.

I replaced the 40 gallon hot water heater last year, looked at doing a
gas replacement for the electric. Routing the piping (pvc) was not
possible without demoing the 1/3 of the basement ceiling and moving
HVAC. Tankless electric big enough to handle the load required a 100
AMP circuit. So went with a 6 year warranty 40 gallon, cost was around
$350, plus about $15 for diaelectric connectors.

Mark

[k...@attt.bizz]

I'm seriously thinking about doing the same, though it's even easier
in my case. There is ~70' of pipe between the water heater (in the
garage) and the master bath. Both are on the first floor and the
basement is unfinished. There are loads of blank breaker slots in the
entrance panels (slowly using them up for the shop, though ;-). It
would be a simple matter to strap a point-of-use water heater to the
joists (though they are manufactured I-beams), next to a wall,
somewhere.

[Leon]

Sounds like the one he was considering was simply not big enough for the
demand he expected to place on it. I would be very surprised if the unit
was purposely designed to raise the water a fixed amount above the actual
temperature of the water. While well water is cold, that is not a unique
situation. The water coming from a normal/regular water supply can be
close to freezing during the winter months. Regardless of where his water
was coming from I suspect there were other unique variables that were going
to limit the ultimate temperature of the water at the faucet, too small of
a unit being my first guess.

[Swingman]

That is actually how tankless units are rated. :)

While well water is cold, that is not a unique
> situation. The water coming from a normal/regular water supply can be
> close to freezing during the winter months. Regardless of where his water
> was coming from I suspect there were other unique variables that were going
> to limit the ultimate temperature of the water at the faucet, too small of
> a unit being my first guess.

Flow Rate.

Tankless units are rated on their temperature rise/flow rate, (gallons per
minute). "Temperature rise" being the difference in temperature of the
water between input and output. The lower the flow rate, the more the water
can be heated.

--
www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile)

[Ed Pawlowski]

On 7/13/2014 8:04 AM, Leon wrote:


>>
>> A friend just went through the details of tank-less versus tank type
>> and the deciding factor in going with a tank was that the heater only
>> raised the temperature of the water a fixed amount and his well water
>> was too cold to get really hot water. 95F - 100F was about all he
>> could expect.
>>
>> Jim
>
> Sounds like the one he was considering was simply not big enough for the
> demand he expected to place on it. I would be very surprised if the unit
> was purposely designed to raise the water a fixed amount above the actual
> temperature of the water. While well water is cold, that is not a unique
> situation. The water coming from a normal/regular water supply can be
> close to freezing during the winter months.

There is a limit to what the temperature can be raised. That is one of
the complaints I've heard with people that have very cold incoming
water. Electrics have less capacity. I've seen them at 36kw or 122,000
btu. From what I saw, you can get 65 degree temperature rise at 3.8 gpm
flow rate.

[Leon]

That is how I understand it. Since the precious statement that I was
responding to did not indicate flow rate being a factor the broad brush
statement of only raising the temp X amount of degrees seemed pretty
problematic. I can absolutely understand raising the temp only x
degrees at full throttle at the faucet but at a lower flow rate I would
find it hard to believe that the temp would not rise.

[Swingman]

On 7/13/2014 9:45 AM, Leon wrote:
> That is how I understand it. Since the precious statement that I was
> responding to did not indicate flow rate being a factor the broad brush
> statement of only raising the temp X amount of degrees seemed pretty
> problematic. I can absolutely understand raising the temp only x
> degrees at full throttle at the faucet but at a lower flow rate I would
> find it hard to believe that the temp would not rise.

One of the problems is that these things sense flow rate internally, so
a low flow rate can cause them to either shut down and/or lower the
temperature rise.

Counter intuitive as it sounds, one of the cures for that problem that
is practiced widely is to turn on a second hot water faucet to keep the
sensor from lowering the temperature.

So much for being "green" and "conservation" minded... like many
"progressive" concepts which focus on feel good issues, the opposite
effect is often the ultimate consequence.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

A common problem with tankless units though, because a "big enogh"
tankless unit would require more electrical power than the total
service available, and a big enough natural gas one would require a
larger meter/regulator, and often even a bigger supply line than the
gas co has installed for most residential services. I'd need to put
in a new underground electrical supply to install the recommended
electric tankless because I only have a 100 amp service, and I cannot
install more than 125 amps on the existing infrastructure. My current
gas meter would support the water heater with the furnace not running,
but would be borderline (at best) for sure if I also had a gas drier
or range running

[Lew Hodgett]

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote:

> From what I saw, you can get 65 degree
> temperature rise at 3.8 gpm flow rate.

-------------------------------------------------------
That's going to be marginal.

Water coming out of the ground will be around 50F-54F
year around based on a lot of heat exchanger design
and development work I did many years ago.

A delta of 65F will give a discharge of 115F at 3.8 gpm.

115F is warm but definitely not hot which is about 130F.

Lew

[k...@attt.bizz]

It's called a BTU (the energy it takes to raise a pound of water one
degree F). ;-) You need 8*gal*degree_rise/min BTU.

[Leon]

Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:
> On 7/13/2014 9:45 AM, Leon wrote:
>> That is how I understand it. Since the precious statement that I was
>> responding to did not indicate flow rate being a factor the broad brush
>> statement of only raising the temp X amount of degrees seemed pretty
>> problematic. I can absolutely understand raising the temp only x
>> degrees at full throttle at the faucet but at a lower flow rate I would
>> find it hard to believe that the temp would not rise.
>
> One of the problems is that these things sense flow rate internally, so a
> low flow rate can cause them to either shut down and/or lower the temperature rise.

I'll take your word on that, I always understood that they ran full bore
when the water was turned on, just like a tank type heater. I understood
that any flow rate above "x" ran the heater at full throttle and any below
"x" did not turn the heater on at all in the event of a dripping faucet.

>
> Counter intuitive as it sounds, one of the cures for that problem that is
> practiced widely is to turn on a second hot water faucet to keep the
> sensor from lowering the temperature.

Again ill take your word on that but it sounds like a faulty flow meter
problem.

>
> So much for being "green" and "conservation" minded... like many
> "progressive" concepts which focus on feel good issues, the opposite
> effect is often the ultimate consequence.

Exactly. Take the whole state of California for instance. They are all
standing on shaky ground and the more they clean the air the drier it
becomes and is ripe for wild fires and preventing rain.

[Swingman]

On 7/14/2014 6:56 AM, Leon wrote:

> Swingman <k...@nospam.com> wrote:

>> One of the problems is that these things sense flow rate internally, so a
>> low flow rate can cause them to either shut down and/or lower the temperature rise.
>
> I'll take your word on that, I always understood that they ran full bore
> when the water was turned on, just like a tank type heater. I understood
> that any flow rate above "x" ran the heater at full throttle and any below
> "x" did not turn the heater on at all in the event of a dripping faucet.


>> Counter intuitive as it sounds, one of the cures for that problem that is
>> practiced widely is to turn on a second hot water faucet to keep the
>> sensor from lowering the temperature.
>
> Again ill take your word on that but it sounds like a faulty flow meter
> problem.

All units I've dealt with have multiple sensors, and a flow rate
restrictor, that use a microprocessor to adjust the heating ability to
both the flow rate, and temperature, of incoming water so that that it
matches the "set point" temperature (generally a setting that is user
controlled).

Also have noted that many user complaints can be traced to the usual
reduced water pressure/flow rate on the output side of these units due
to the restriction, compared to the input, especially when used in
conjunction with modern "pressure" balanced fixtures.

So, yes, there is generally flow rate restriction available/involved
internally, and they don't necessarily run "full bore".

Therefore the basis of my original opinion - not for the faint of heart,
and certainly more expense to install and _maintain_.

[Leon]

I think I was skeptical about them after learning how much the vent pipe
cost was on the Ruskin house, now I am certain that the tanks will
continue to be in the future for me.