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tree removal arrangement
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Electric Comet
Apr 28, 2016, 3:54:42 PM4/28/16
to
scenario
property owner has a tree they want removed
depending on the tree size and location it can be very expensive to have
them removed by a pro
the location matters for lots of reasons
proximity to structures
some localities require permits to remove trees and fines if you just
cut one down without asking
etc
i see lots of ads on craigslist for free lumber just come and cut
it down
i do not think they really understand what they are askin for because
anyone could show up with an axe and a chain saw and wreak havoc
saw an ad recently though for free lumber and they had 50-100 trees
do not know the species
so maybe it all comes down to what species and how big and how much
work
has anyone devised a model or spreadsheet that can begin to determine
the economy of this pursuit
i am leaning toward making the property owner pay some money no matter
what just because of the amount of work and threat to life and limb
John Grossbohlin
Apr 28, 2016, 5:26:08 PM4/28/16
to
"Electric Comet" wrote in message news:nftpjg$vq5$1...@dont-email.me...
...
Will the trees yield mill logs in regards to size?
Hardwoods/Softwoods?
Is this a clear cutting project where everything has to go?
Is it a TSI project (Timber Stand Improvement) where generally only cull
trees are being offered? Cull could be dead/damaged/leaner trees that may be
firewood only.
Does the brush (i.e., tops and limbs) need to be chipped, or need to be cut
sufficiently to have it lay fairly flat, or can you leave it lay as cut?
Possible answers include:
Mill logs... the cutter generally pays the land owner for those and the
price depends on anticipated yield and species and the market at time of
cutting.
TSI, what is it worth as firewood and can you process the wood economically?
Is there anything worth milling? There could be some trees with great
character that are nasty looking and not of interest to a commercial milling
operation but that could yield great wood via custom cutting with a chainsaw
mill or bandsaw mill.
Clear cutting... that’s almost always a “they pay” proposition and millable
logs are a bonus.
How you perceive all of this in the context of the trees offered is up to
you... At the end you may feel like you won or you may feel like you lost
financially. Then again, if you simply like cutting trees down and the
wood/money is secondary that can work too!
...
>saw an ad recently though for free lumber and they had 50-100 trees
>
>do not know the species
>
>so maybe it all comes down to what species and how big and how much
>work
>
>has anyone devised a model or spreadsheet that can begin to determine
>the economy of this pursuit
>
>i am leaning toward making the property owner pay some money no matter
>what just because of the amount of work and threat to life and limb
There are a lot of "it depends" questions that go along with this...
>
>do not know the species
>
>so maybe it all comes down to what species and how big and how much
>work
>
>has anyone devised a model or spreadsheet that can begin to determine
>the economy of this pursuit
>
>i am leaning toward making the property owner pay some money no matter
>what just because of the amount of work and threat to life and limb
Will the trees yield mill logs in regards to size?
Hardwoods/Softwoods?
Is this a clear cutting project where everything has to go?
Is it a TSI project (Timber Stand Improvement) where generally only cull
trees are being offered? Cull could be dead/damaged/leaner trees that may be
firewood only.
Does the brush (i.e., tops and limbs) need to be chipped, or need to be cut
sufficiently to have it lay fairly flat, or can you leave it lay as cut?
Possible answers include:
Mill logs... the cutter generally pays the land owner for those and the
price depends on anticipated yield and species and the market at time of
cutting.
TSI, what is it worth as firewood and can you process the wood economically?
Is there anything worth milling? There could be some trees with great
character that are nasty looking and not of interest to a commercial milling
operation but that could yield great wood via custom cutting with a chainsaw
mill or bandsaw mill.
Clear cutting... that’s almost always a “they pay” proposition and millable
logs are a bonus.
How you perceive all of this in the context of the trees offered is up to
you... At the end you may feel like you won or you may feel like you lost
financially. Then again, if you simply like cutting trees down and the
wood/money is secondary that can work too!
Ed Pawlowski
Apr 28, 2016, 8:59:46 PM4/28/16
to
On 4/28/2016 3:51 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
>
> scenario
>
> property owner has a tree they want removed
>
> depending on the tree size and location it can be very expensive to have
> them removed by a pro
>
> the location matters for lots of reasons
>
> proximity to structures
> some localities require permits to remove trees and fines if you just
> cut one down without asking
>
> etc
>
> i see lots of ads on craigslist for free lumber just come and cut
> it down
>
> i do not think they really understand what they are askin for because
> anyone could show up with an axe and a chain saw and wreak havoc
>
To me, it sounds like some cheap SOB is willing to take some risk to get
>
> scenario
>
> property owner has a tree they want removed
>
> depending on the tree size and location it can be very expensive to have
> them removed by a pro
>
> the location matters for lots of reasons
>
> proximity to structures
> some localities require permits to remove trees and fines if you just
> cut one down without asking
>
> etc
>
> i see lots of ads on craigslist for free lumber just come and cut
> it down
>
> i do not think they really understand what they are askin for because
> anyone could show up with an axe and a chain saw and wreak havoc
>
rid of a tree. They are looking for a guy that thinks he is getting a
freebie for a little labor.
As a homeowner, no one is taking a saw to a branch until they give me a
certificate of insurance with my name on it. This is a routine thing
that the agency does to prove coverage. As the guy taking down the tree
I'd want to be covered in case the homeowner tries to sue me for
dropping a big branch on his cat.
I had a tree taken down a couple of weeks ago. It had little value for
wood cut into boards, but did yield some firewood.
In my case, I paid $400 to have it taken down. If I was doing it for
the wood value, I'd be working for a very low wage. Unless you can get
a good yield of a prime species like cherry or walnut, I'd want to get
paid.
You really have to look at the shole situation like you are now.
Equipment involved risk, yield, time, expectation of clearing everything
away. My guess is you are dealing with a cheap ass homeowner that
thinks he is giving you a great gift. They will be a PITA do deal with.
Sonny
May 1, 2016, 12:48:41 PM5/1/16
to
On Thursday, April 28, 2016 at 2:54:42 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
> scenario
As best I can determine, you are not a professional. You are a hobbyist, maybe? .... *We've never seen any of your woodwork. You don't have a clue, as to what you are contemplating "leaning" into, if you are actually contemplating such.
You seem to post about such a wide variety of stuff and there doesn't always seem to be a common thread connecting all the different things you post about.
> i am leaning toward making the property owner pay some money no matter
> what just because of the amount of work and threat to life and limb
Is that your first thoughts, the bottom line or end product. i.e., profit? Typical thinking for a failed venture: Though you appear to be considering the "work involved", your comments suggest a round-about way of looking at the end product (profit), without considering all that precedes it, required to accomplish it. I get a sense that your business planning/thinking is about as valid (meaning erratic) as your varied woodworking postings.
For a property owner who has significant timber on their property, they won't be advertising on Craigslist, period!! They will go directly to a dedicated lumber/milling company. For this 50-100 trees, I highly suspect it's scrub stock or firewood, at best, and the property owner is looking for someone unknowing, of such things. Or did you make up this story, about these 50-100 trees, simply for the purpose of posting something (again), here on the forum?
I'll bite, though:
I suggest, if you want some (hobbyist) lumber for yourself, to inquire about cutting 1 or 2 trees, only. Size up that job (and the milling, etc.), before you even remotely consider tackling an acre of (questionable?!) timber land.
BTW, for that property owner, who advertises on Craigslist, .... and as others, here, have proffered...., I would recommend you Google "Hold Harmless Agreement", even for collecting 1 or 2 trees.
As a hobbyist, I once cut down 5-6 trees, at one time, for lumber, long ago. The lumber value wasn't worth the labor effort. The pleasure of getting it was the value, at my naive age and/or lack of intelligence of such things. Since then, I've always salvaged a downed tree, or one that was to be fell by someone else, then had it milled. For a hobbyist, lumberjacking is a big job and the "profit" (of 1 or 2 trees) is usually only in the pleasure of getting a particular tree/lumber, not necessarily the monetary profit of the lumber.
Scenario: Let's say you cut all those trees and have them milled (rough cut). Then what? Where you gonna store all that lumber, before you sell it? .... *I assume you gonna sell it? Kiln dried, air dried? Is it to be planed or will you sell it as rough cut? Then you have to find some buyers, and that's another whole new ball game!
Side note: Generally, anything 8" (sometimes 10") or less, in diameter, is not milled, is not worth milling, for lumber. By the time the log is squared, there's no significant amount of "beam" remaining, to cut a decent amount of lumber.
If you want some hobbyist lumber, for a cost of labor only, I would recommend you find an old house, barn or shed to salvage, rather than lumberjacking. .... and again, consider a Hold Harmless agreement for demolition. More often, the property owner pays to have a structure demolished.
Want to find an old house to demolish? Go to your city's code office/appropriate department and find out what old houses are listed as condemned, mandated to be demolished. Go inspect the properties, to see which ones have some good/desireable lumber. Quote the owner a fee for demolition. You'll likely need a contract, as to what all needs to be done to satisfy the city's ordinace and/or the owners' wishes. For condemned houses, the city will often give the owner a time limit to have the building demolished, or else the city will do it, at the owner's expense. The city's demolition fee is usually non-negotiable. What's the city's typical fees, for various structures, and use that as a guide for your quote.
Not familiar with Hold Harmless agreements? Go to the Court house (files) and find one/some... see what is entailed, how it's worded, etc., etc.
Sonny
> scenario
As best I can determine, you are not a professional. You are a hobbyist, maybe? .... *We've never seen any of your woodwork. You don't have a clue, as to what you are contemplating "leaning" into, if you are actually contemplating such.
You seem to post about such a wide variety of stuff and there doesn't always seem to be a common thread connecting all the different things you post about.
> i am leaning toward making the property owner pay some money no matter
> what just because of the amount of work and threat to life and limb
For a property owner who has significant timber on their property, they won't be advertising on Craigslist, period!! They will go directly to a dedicated lumber/milling company. For this 50-100 trees, I highly suspect it's scrub stock or firewood, at best, and the property owner is looking for someone unknowing, of such things. Or did you make up this story, about these 50-100 trees, simply for the purpose of posting something (again), here on the forum?
I'll bite, though:
I suggest, if you want some (hobbyist) lumber for yourself, to inquire about cutting 1 or 2 trees, only. Size up that job (and the milling, etc.), before you even remotely consider tackling an acre of (questionable?!) timber land.
BTW, for that property owner, who advertises on Craigslist, .... and as others, here, have proffered...., I would recommend you Google "Hold Harmless Agreement", even for collecting 1 or 2 trees.
As a hobbyist, I once cut down 5-6 trees, at one time, for lumber, long ago. The lumber value wasn't worth the labor effort. The pleasure of getting it was the value, at my naive age and/or lack of intelligence of such things. Since then, I've always salvaged a downed tree, or one that was to be fell by someone else, then had it milled. For a hobbyist, lumberjacking is a big job and the "profit" (of 1 or 2 trees) is usually only in the pleasure of getting a particular tree/lumber, not necessarily the monetary profit of the lumber.
Scenario: Let's say you cut all those trees and have them milled (rough cut). Then what? Where you gonna store all that lumber, before you sell it? .... *I assume you gonna sell it? Kiln dried, air dried? Is it to be planed or will you sell it as rough cut? Then you have to find some buyers, and that's another whole new ball game!
Side note: Generally, anything 8" (sometimes 10") or less, in diameter, is not milled, is not worth milling, for lumber. By the time the log is squared, there's no significant amount of "beam" remaining, to cut a decent amount of lumber.
If you want some hobbyist lumber, for a cost of labor only, I would recommend you find an old house, barn or shed to salvage, rather than lumberjacking. .... and again, consider a Hold Harmless agreement for demolition. More often, the property owner pays to have a structure demolished.
Want to find an old house to demolish? Go to your city's code office/appropriate department and find out what old houses are listed as condemned, mandated to be demolished. Go inspect the properties, to see which ones have some good/desireable lumber. Quote the owner a fee for demolition. You'll likely need a contract, as to what all needs to be done to satisfy the city's ordinace and/or the owners' wishes. For condemned houses, the city will often give the owner a time limit to have the building demolished, or else the city will do it, at the owner's expense. The city's demolition fee is usually non-negotiable. What's the city's typical fees, for various structures, and use that as a guide for your quote.
Not familiar with Hold Harmless agreements? Go to the Court house (files) and find one/some... see what is entailed, how it's worded, etc., etc.
Sonny
Michael
May 2, 2016, 12:10:35 PM5/2/16
to
Electric Comet
May 7, 2016, 1:09:34 PM5/7/16
to
On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 17:19:48 -0400
"John Grossbohlin" <nospam....@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
> There are a lot of "it depends" questions that go along with this...
you make a lot of good points and show that this makes a good case
"John Grossbohlin" <nospam....@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
> There are a lot of "it depends" questions that go along with this...
for a computer model using a spreadsheet at least and maybe a full
blown computer program to try to find the best arrangement
but there are probably too many unknowns that can be inserted into
the formula for the model to be accurate
i still lean toward charging the tree owner some amount in these
cases even if it was excellent lumber
if they balk then it is time to walk
they would probably call back when they get quotes from others
Electric Comet
May 7, 2016, 1:18:42 PM5/7/16
to
On Thu, 28 Apr 2016 20:59:44 -0400
Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote:
> As a homeowner, no one is taking a saw to a branch until they give me
> a certificate of insurance with my name on it. This is a routine
> thing that the agency does to prove coverage. As the guy taking down
> the tree I'd want to be covered in case the homeowner tries to sue me
> for dropping a big branch on his cat.
the insurance is important point
Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.net> wrote:
> As a homeowner, no one is taking a saw to a branch until they give me
> a certificate of insurance with my name on it. This is a routine
> thing that the agency does to prove coverage. As the guy taking down
> the tree I'd want to be covered in case the homeowner tries to sue me
> for dropping a big branch on his cat.
in my travels over craigslist around the country i see many listings
saying free trees just come and cut it down
most are just a single tree and usually those single trees are close
to dwellings
the posters are not grasping that anyone can buy a chain saw and show
up to cut the tree
but if the homeowner is on a limited budget they may just be trying
to find a way to remove a potentially dangerous tree
but they find themselves in much worse shape if things go bad during
the tree cutting
Ed Pawlowski
May 7, 2016, 5:55:22 PM5/7/16
to
liability on the person taking down the tree. You could ask a lawyer
but that could cost as much as having a pro cut it down.
notbob
May 7, 2016, 5:58:16 PM5/7/16
to
On 2016-05-07, Electric Comet <electri...@mail.invalid> wrote:
> the posters are not grasping that anyone can buy a chain saw and show
> up to cut the tree
Here's a good reason to hire pros:
> the posters are not grasping that anyone can buy a chain saw and show
> up to cut the tree
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0PHwb_GgD8
....and these guys are admitted amateurs!
nb
Bill
May 7, 2016, 6:00:30 PM5/7/16
to
John Grossbohlin
May 7, 2016, 6:51:56 PM5/7/16
to
"notbob" wrote in message news:dp76nk...@mid.individual.net...
Any one of these guys could show up too...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A38tbdu6ugk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A38tbdu6ugk
krw
May 7, 2016, 8:02:55 PM5/7/16
to
On Sat, 7 May 2016 18:00:09 -0400, Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net>
wrote:
...and a lawyer's answer will be "it depends". The question is more
of are you willing to go to court (on either side).
wrote:
of are you willing to go to court (on either side).
Bill
May 8, 2016, 10:12:36 AM5/8/16
to
I got my money's worth. It didn't have anything to do with cutting down
trees though. When I hired a company to take down a tree, I called
their insurance company and verified that he was "paid up".
In other news, I replaced the "transmission assembly" in my
self-propelled lawnmower this week (ugg). I probably earned my $250
back right there.
Cheers
Mike Marlow
May 8, 2016, 1:09:24 PM5/8/16
to
Bill wrote:
>
>
> In other news, I replaced the "transmission assembly" in my
> self-propelled lawnmower this week (ugg). I probably earned my $250
> back right there.
>
> Cheers
>
Good for you Bill! A rather trivial job in the scheme of things, but
>
>
> In other news, I replaced the "transmission assembly" in my
> self-propelled lawnmower this week (ugg). I probably earned my $250
> back right there.
>
> Cheers
>
maybe not so much if it's your first time putting your hand to that kind
of thing. Still - money well saved and a great sense of accomplishment.
Press on brother...
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net
Bill
May 8, 2016, 1:29:48 PM5/8/16
to
the cable connector (had to watch 3 videos until i found one where I
could see how it worked), about Loctite (blue), and I learned that my
memory for putting the pieces (particularly springs and washers in the
gears) back together wasn't as good as I thought it would be.
Fortunately, a long model number permitted me download a more accurate
parts diagram than the one which came with my unit! Also, next time
I'll take things apart Before I order parts so I don't have to deal with
"stripped" or otherwise broken parts--though it seems to be running okay
with a broken spring behind the wheel gear (which still behaves as a
"spacer").
Bill
Mike Marlow
May 8, 2016, 2:41:17 PM5/8/16
to
Bill wrote:
>>
> Thanks Mike. It didn't seem trivial at the time. :) I learned about
> the cable connector (had to watch 3 videos until i found one where I
> could see how it worked), about Loctite (blue), and I learned that my
> memory for putting the pieces (particularly springs and washers in the
> gears) back together wasn't as good as I thought it would be.
> Fortunately, a long model number permitted me download a more accurate
> parts diagram than the one which came with my unit! Also, next time
> I'll take things apart Before I order parts so I don't have to deal with
> "stripped" or otherwise broken parts--though it seems to be running okay
> with a broken spring behind the wheel gear (which still behaves as a
> "spacer").
>
HA! Don't I get that memory thing Bill! It's so bad that I've taken to
>>
> Thanks Mike. It didn't seem trivial at the time. :) I learned about
> the cable connector (had to watch 3 videos until i found one where I
> could see how it worked), about Loctite (blue), and I learned that my
> memory for putting the pieces (particularly springs and washers in the
> gears) back together wasn't as good as I thought it would be.
> Fortunately, a long model number permitted me download a more accurate
> parts diagram than the one which came with my unit! Also, next time
> I'll take things apart Before I order parts so I don't have to deal with
> "stripped" or otherwise broken parts--though it seems to be running okay
> with a broken spring behind the wheel gear (which still behaves as a
> "spacer").
>
snapping pictures on my phone more and more now when I do things like
that which I've never done before. It's amazing how obvious it all
looks when you're taking it apart, but then it doesn't look so obvious
when you're putting it back together! I find myself saying that "Damn!"
word more and more these days...
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net
Unknown
May 8, 2016, 3:34:38 PM5/8/16
to
Mike Marlow <mma...@windstream.net> wrote in
news:ngo11n$gqv$1...@dont-email.me:
>
> HA! Don't I get that memory thing Bill! It's so bad that I've taken
> to snapping pictures on my phone more and more now when I do things
> like that which I've never done before. It's amazing how obvious it
> all looks when you're taking it apart, but then it doesn't look so
> obvious when you're putting it back together! I find myself saying
> that "Damn!" word more and more these days...
>
I often separate the screws into separate assemblies as I take things
apart. The cover screws are in one small pile, the mount screws in
another, etc.
Dad told me (before digital cameras) to draw a picture of how something
went together. Sometimes I do, or at least mark it in a meaningful
context. I wrote "I" on the frame of one locomotive so I knew which
side had the insulated wheels. (The frame is often used for power
transfer, and one side has to be insulated.)
My favorite tip is if you're going to leave something disassembled for
more than a few minutes to put the screws back in the holes they came
out of. You often get those designs where they used the screws that
were as long as possible even though a shorter one would been fine.
That gets to be a puzzle.
Puckdropper
news:ngo11n$gqv$1...@dont-email.me:
>
> HA! Don't I get that memory thing Bill! It's so bad that I've taken
> to snapping pictures on my phone more and more now when I do things
> like that which I've never done before. It's amazing how obvious it
> all looks when you're taking it apart, but then it doesn't look so
> obvious when you're putting it back together! I find myself saying
> that "Damn!" word more and more these days...
>
apart. The cover screws are in one small pile, the mount screws in
another, etc.
Dad told me (before digital cameras) to draw a picture of how something
went together. Sometimes I do, or at least mark it in a meaningful
context. I wrote "I" on the frame of one locomotive so I knew which
side had the insulated wheels. (The frame is often used for power
transfer, and one side has to be insulated.)
My favorite tip is if you're going to leave something disassembled for
more than a few minutes to put the screws back in the holes they came
out of. You often get those designs where they used the screws that
were as long as possible even though a shorter one would been fine.
That gets to be a puzzle.
Puckdropper
Bill
May 8, 2016, 4:02:47 PM5/8/16
to
spring in between them? Of course, there were 4 washers, two thin and
two thick. The 2 thick ones go behind the pin that fits in the back of
the spur gear. Without the new diagram, I would have been unable to
complete the job... At least Troy-bilt had that for me. However their
"shop manuals" leave something to be desired. As I read somewhere else,
I think they want to support the businesses that repair lawnmowers, or
encourage people to replace their equipment.
Ed Pawlowski
May 8, 2016, 4:06:02 PM5/8/16
to
On 5/8/2016 3:34 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Dad told me (before digital cameras) to draw a picture of how something
> went together. Sometimes I do, or at least mark it in a meaningful
> context. I wrote "I" on the frame of one locomotive so I knew which
> side had the insulated wheels. (The frame is often used for power
> transfer, and one side has to be insulated.)
>
> My favorite tip is if you're going to leave something disassembled for
> more than a few minutes to put the screws back in the holes they came
> out of. You often get those designs where they used the screws that
> were as long as possible even though a shorter one would been fine.
> That gets to be a puzzle.
>
> Puckdropper
>
Good advice. Eight years ago we moved our factory and all the machines.
> Dad told me (before digital cameras) to draw a picture of how something
> went together. Sometimes I do, or at least mark it in a meaningful
> context. I wrote "I" on the frame of one locomotive so I knew which
> side had the insulated wheels. (The frame is often used for power
> transfer, and one side has to be insulated.)
>
> My favorite tip is if you're going to leave something disassembled for
> more than a few minutes to put the screws back in the holes they came
> out of. You often get those designs where they used the screws that
> were as long as possible even though a shorter one would been fine.
> That gets to be a puzzle.
>
> Puckdropper
>
Everything was marked and much was photographed as you describe and it
made setup in the new location much easier. It only takes a couple of
minutes to put the bolts back in place and take them out again when
needed. It save hours over finding lost bolts or having to buy new
ones. It was a four month project that I don't want to repeat.
krw
May 8, 2016, 5:08:27 PM5/8/16
to
On Sun, 8 May 2016 10:11:29 -0400, Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net>
wrote:
I'm not saying that a lawyer's advice is never worth $250, just that
in this case there are too many variables and the main one here is
"are you willing to sue (or is the other guy)". Verifying insurance
is the smarter move, by far.
power, cough, belch a little black smoke, and continue on. I'll have
to get to it sometime soon but the guy in the white coat and sharp
knives has dibs on me Tuesday. The mower (and the lawn) are going to
have to wait a little while (the HOA can go pound salt if it rains
this week).
wrote:
in this case there are too many variables and the main one here is
"are you willing to sue (or is the other guy)". Verifying insurance
is the smarter move, by far.
>
>In other news, I replaced the "transmission assembly" in my
>self-propelled lawnmower this week (ugg). I probably earned my $250
>back right there.
Mine is wanting to stall now. It's very intermittent but it'll lose
>In other news, I replaced the "transmission assembly" in my
>self-propelled lawnmower this week (ugg). I probably earned my $250
>back right there.
power, cough, belch a little black smoke, and continue on. I'll have
to get to it sometime soon but the guy in the white coat and sharp
knives has dibs on me Tuesday. The mower (and the lawn) are going to
have to wait a little while (the HOA can go pound salt if it rains
this week).
krw
May 8, 2016, 5:09:36 PM5/8/16
to
On Sun, 8 May 2016 13:28:55 -0400, Bill <BILL_...@whoknows.net>
wrote:
Have cell phone. Take pictures. ;-)
wrote:
Electric Comet
May 9, 2016, 2:49:14 PM5/9/16
to
Electric Comet
May 9, 2016, 3:15:18 PM5/9/16
to
On Sat, 7 May 2016 18:52:06 -0400
"John Grossbohlin" <nospam....@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
> Any one of these guys could show up too...
yeah it can go bad quickly
"John Grossbohlin" <nospam....@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
> Any one of these guys could show up too...
really have to think clearly in these cases
spend 500 or 1000 or more and have it done right
or possibly end up injured for life with destroyed property and now
you have to hire someone anyway
i thought they set the palm tree onto the truck nicely
John Grossbohlin
May 9, 2016, 9:49:17 PM5/9/16
to
"Electric Comet" wrote in message news:ngqndf$8ro$1...@dont-email.me...
I've taken down about 60-70 trees in the past year... no mishaps and I'm not
counting anything under about 5-6" at breast height (ABH). Some of the trees
were very technical drops due to the proximity to wires, buildings, fences,
swimming pools, etc. The last one was a dead 74' ash that was 30" in
diameter ABH. The natural lean and canopy had the center of mass of the tree
leaning about 16 feet towards the house. Making matters worse it was within
7" of a shed which made it tricky to cut.
Using a rope saw I cut the limbs off up to about 35 feet or so which got the
center of mass down to about 7 feet towards the house. I felled it 90
degrees to the lean using an open face notch, plunge cut to establish the
hinge, lots of wedges to hold it in place, and then cut the "trigger." That
is, the Game of Logging technique. It ultimately took a 4" glut, 3" of
felling wedges, and an 8 lb. sledge hammer to get the tree to fall where I
wanted it... it did in fact land where I wanted it. It made some great
sounds as it fell! LOL See the short video of the final moments in abpw.
The caption was my son's doing. LOL
BTW, I used the Stihl MS461 with 25" bar that I picked up around the first
of the year. That 30" tree was no match for the saw! I limbed most of it
with my MS271 and used the MS461 on anything over about 6". Also, almost
all the trees in the background are dead ash... I took down 29 of them on my
parents' property. We need to get the adjoining property owner to take down
everything within about 80-90 feet of the shed and property line as they all
seem to be leaning towards it!
counting anything under about 5-6" at breast height (ABH). Some of the trees
were very technical drops due to the proximity to wires, buildings, fences,
swimming pools, etc. The last one was a dead 74' ash that was 30" in
diameter ABH. The natural lean and canopy had the center of mass of the tree
leaning about 16 feet towards the house. Making matters worse it was within
7" of a shed which made it tricky to cut.
Using a rope saw I cut the limbs off up to about 35 feet or so which got the
center of mass down to about 7 feet towards the house. I felled it 90
degrees to the lean using an open face notch, plunge cut to establish the
hinge, lots of wedges to hold it in place, and then cut the "trigger." That
is, the Game of Logging technique. It ultimately took a 4" glut, 3" of
felling wedges, and an 8 lb. sledge hammer to get the tree to fall where I
wanted it... it did in fact land where I wanted it. It made some great
sounds as it fell! LOL See the short video of the final moments in abpw.
The caption was my son's doing. LOL
BTW, I used the Stihl MS461 with 25" bar that I picked up around the first
of the year. That 30" tree was no match for the saw! I limbed most of it
with my MS271 and used the MS461 on anything over about 6". Also, almost
all the trees in the background are dead ash... I took down 29 of them on my
parents' property. We need to get the adjoining property owner to take down
everything within about 80-90 feet of the shed and property line as they all
seem to be leaning towards it!
Unquestionably Confused
May 9, 2016, 10:52:38 PM5/9/16
to
On 5/9/2016 8:49 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
> 4" glut, 3" of felling wedges, and an 8 lb. sledge hammer to get the
> tree to fall where I wanted it... it did in fact land where I wanted it.
> It made some great sounds as it fell! LOL See the short video of the
> final moments in abpw. The caption was my son's doing. LOL
Nicely swot, John. Got two of them suckers in my back yard. Wanna give
> 4" glut, 3" of felling wedges, and an 8 lb. sledge hammer to get the
> tree to fall where I wanted it... it did in fact land where I wanted it.
> It made some great sounds as it fell! LOL See the short video of the
> final moments in abpw. The caption was my son's doing. LOL
them a go? LOL!
>
John Grossbohlin
May 9, 2016, 11:09:19 PM5/9/16
to
"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
news:57314cf4$0$44344$c3e8da3$aae7...@news.astraweb.com...
Cutting them down and bucking is challenging and fun... cleaning up the mess
isn't...
Fun is mine... mess is yours.
Where are you? LOL
news:57314cf4$0$44344$c3e8da3$aae7...@news.astraweb.com...
isn't...
Fun is mine... mess is yours.
Where are you? LOL
Unquestionably Confused
May 9, 2016, 11:22:27 PM5/9/16
to
Chicago (aka Chiraq)
Specifically? About 35' and 95' due west of two dead Ash trees (~ 45
yrs old) that met their match with the Emerald Ash Borer. :(
John Grossbohlin
May 10, 2016, 8:06:10 AM5/10/16
to
"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
news:573153f1$0$36006$c3e8da3$76a7...@news.astraweb.com...
The Emerald Ash Borer has decimated this area..., e.g., 100s of trees
within 300 yards of my parents' house alone.
knuttle
May 10, 2016, 8:55:16 AM5/10/16
to
Electric Comet
May 11, 2016, 11:47:00 AM5/11/16
to
On Mon, 9 May 2016 21:49:26 -0400
"John Grossbohlin" <nospam....@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
> Using a rope saw I cut the limbs off up to about 35 feet or so which
> got the center of mass down to about 7 feet towards the house. I
> felled it 90 degrees to the lean using an open face notch, plunge cut
> to establish the hinge, lots of wedges to hold it in place, and then
> cut the "trigger." That is, the Game of Logging technique. It
> ultimately took a 4" glut, 3" of felling wedges, and an 8 lb. sledge
> hammer to get the tree to fall where I wanted it... it did in fact
> land where I wanted it. It made some great sounds as it fell! LOL
sounds like challenging work
"John Grossbohlin" <nospam....@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
> Using a rope saw I cut the limbs off up to about 35 feet or so which
> got the center of mass down to about 7 feet towards the house. I
> felled it 90 degrees to the lean using an open face notch, plunge cut
> to establish the hinge, lots of wedges to hold it in place, and then
> cut the "trigger." That is, the Game of Logging technique. It
> ultimately took a 4" glut, 3" of felling wedges, and an 8 lb. sledge
> hammer to get the tree to fall where I wanted it... it did in fact
> land where I wanted it. It made some great sounds as it fell! LOL
i have seen them cut trees like this in sections starting at the
top and lowering with ropes
after limbing them
your method sounds safer because cutting in sections requires
careful roping and using a chainsaw 60 feet up
> BTW, I used the Stihl MS461 with 25" bar that I picked up around the
> first of the year. That 30" tree was no match for the saw! I limbed
> most of it with my MS271 and used the MS461 on anything over about
> 6". Also, almost all the trees in the background are dead ash... I
> took down 29 of them on my parents' property. We need to get the
> adjoining property owner to take down everything within about 80-90
> feet of the shed and property line as they all seem to be leaning
> towards it!
you make another interesting point
can a tree on adjoining property be labeled a hazard to another
property and be required to be removed
Electric Comet
May 11, 2016, 11:48:22 AM5/11/16
to
On Tue, 10 May 2016 08:55:06 -0400
knuttle <keith_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Cleaning up has ruined a lot of project that were a lot of fun doing.
a lot like writing documentation
knuttle <keith_...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Cleaning up has ruined a lot of project that were a lot of fun doing.
Mike Marlow
May 11, 2016, 12:40:20 PM5/11/16
to
Electric Comet wrote:
>
> can a tree on adjoining property be labeled a hazard to another
> property and be required to be removed
>
No. For the most part. There are locations around the country though
>
> can a tree on adjoining property be labeled a hazard to another
> property and be required to be removed
>
where weird local regulations defy logic... As a rule, but not as a
definitive, if the tree is right on the property line, there are some
prevailing regulations that affect that tree. Situation dependent.
That said - if a tree is fully on your property, and it leans toward
your neighbor's property - not so much protection for your neighbor.
You might have been better off to have checked with your local
municipality though, than raising your question here.
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net
Unknown
May 11, 2016, 1:45:08 PM5/11/16
to
"Mike Marlow" <mma...@windstream.net> wrote in message
news:ngvn2s$f1j$1...@dont-email.me...
a tree that is leaning towards your house, you tell your insurance agent
about it. They come out and look at it and if they think it is a problem,
they write a letter which explains that they will need to pay out if any
damage is caused by your tree. And they will sue to recover those damages.
That often acts as a good motivator.
I should point out that there are a lot of trees coming to the end of their
life in this neighborhood. Trees come down all the time. So there is a lot
of proactive tree work done around here. My next door neighbor had a huge
maple tree come down in her back yard a few months ago.
Also, there is enough of a tree problem around here that many real estate
sales include a "tree threat analysis" from a qualified arborist. It is a
good idea. About four years ago, a big tree took out about a third of a
house a block away from me. After any big wind storm, there is branches
down everywhere. And some small trees.
I walk my dog every day and I have seen the tree guys at work many times.
You really don't want to be liable for a tree on your property falling on
somebody else's house.
John Grossbohlin
May 11, 2016, 5:11:16 PM5/11/16
to
"Electric Comet" wrote in message news:ngvjut$2ed$1...@dont-email.me...
I plan to mill it with a chainsaw mill... 36" bar on the MS461 gives me
about 29" of cutting capacity taking the Alaskan mill attachment and roller
nose on the bar into account. I might need to trim a few boards to width
though I think if I remove the bark that will take care of the issues on the
butt end of the first log. Taking the bark off also will keep the chain
sharp longer as there is a lot of grit in bark.
>you make another interesting point
>can a tree on adjoining property be labeled a hazard to another
>property and be required to be removed
Around here if you notify the owner in writing that there is a problem and
something happens they are liable...
The note about having the insurance company do this is not a bad idea.
My parent's agent lives behind them near the property where all the dead ash
threaten my parents' property. As such it would be easy for him to check it
out. ;~)
about 29" of cutting capacity taking the Alaskan mill attachment and roller
nose on the bar into account. I might need to trim a few boards to width
though I think if I remove the bark that will take care of the issues on the
butt end of the first log. Taking the bark off also will keep the chain
sharp longer as there is a lot of grit in bark.
>you make another interesting point
>can a tree on adjoining property be labeled a hazard to another
>property and be required to be removed
something happens they are liable...
The note about having the insurance company do this is not a bad idea.
My parent's agent lives behind them near the property where all the dead ash
threaten my parents' property. As such it would be easy for him to check it
out. ;~)
Leon
May 11, 2016, 5:25:40 PM5/11/16
to
On 5/11/2016 12:45 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>
> "Mike Marlow" <mma...@windstream.net> wrote in message
> news:ngvn2s$f1j$1...@dont-email.me...
>> Electric Comet wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> can a tree on adjoining property be labeled a hazard to another
>>> property and be required to be removed
>>>
>>
>> No. For the most part. There are locations around the country though
>> where weird local regulations defy logic... As a rule, but not as a
>> definitive, if the tree is right on the property line, there are some
>> prevailing regulations that affect that tree. Situation dependent.
>> That said - if a tree is fully on your property, and it leans toward
>> your neighbor's property - not so much protection for your neighbor.
>>
>> You might have been better off to have checked with your local
>> municipality though, than raising your question here.
>>
> In my neighborhood, the insurance companies are very proactive. If
> there is a tree that is leaning towards your house, you tell your
> insurance agent about it. They come out and look at it and if they
> think it is a problem, they write a letter which explains that they will
> need to pay out if any damage is caused by your tree. And they will sue
> to recover those damages. That often acts as a good motivator.
Snip
>
>
> "Mike Marlow" <mma...@windstream.net> wrote in message
> news:ngvn2s$f1j$1...@dont-email.me...
>> Electric Comet wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> can a tree on adjoining property be labeled a hazard to another
>>> property and be required to be removed
>>>
>>
>> No. For the most part. There are locations around the country though
>> where weird local regulations defy logic... As a rule, but not as a
>> definitive, if the tree is right on the property line, there are some
>> prevailing regulations that affect that tree. Situation dependent.
>> That said - if a tree is fully on your property, and it leans toward
>> your neighbor's property - not so much protection for your neighbor.
>>
>> You might have been better off to have checked with your local
>> municipality though, than raising your question here.
>>
> In my neighborhood, the insurance companies are very proactive. If
> there is a tree that is leaning towards your house, you tell your
> insurance agent about it. They come out and look at it and if they
> think it is a problem, they write a letter which explains that they will
> need to pay out if any damage is caused by your tree. And they will sue
> to recover those damages. That often acts as a good motivator.
>
> I walk my dog every day and I have seen the tree guys at work many
> times. You really don't want to be liable for a tree on your property
> falling on somebody else's house.
>
>
>
policy.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
May 11, 2016, 5:26:46 PM5/11/16
to
deadwood is generally firewood.
As far as hazards go, if you feel a tree is a hazard to your property,
send a registered letter to the neighbour, his insurance company, and
yours indicating your concern and a reasonable explabnation of the
risk. Not a bad idea to mail yourself a copy as well and put it in
your safe. When the tree comes down and does damage because no-one
took action, forwaerd your copy to your lawyer and let the insurance
companies fight it out..All the layer needs to do, (or your insurance
company) is establish that not removing the risk was negligence and
that both the owner and their insurance company were fully aware of
the risk. Having an arborist's assessment of the tree and pictures
included in the registered letter wpuld not be a bad idea either.....
krw
May 11, 2016, 6:22:37 PM5/11/16
to
lot of effort.
Writing documentation first makes both the documentation and the
product better.
krw
May 11, 2016, 6:46:35 PM5/11/16
to
On Wed, 11 May 2016 16:25:30 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:
...and a $1M umbrella.
wrote:
Electric Comet
May 11, 2016, 8:01:32 PM5/11/16
to
On Wed, 11 May 2016 17:11:25 -0400
"John Grossbohlin" <nospam....@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
> I plan to mill it with a chainsaw mill... 36" bar on the MS461 gives
> me about 29" of cutting capacity taking the Alaskan mill attachment
> and roller nose on the bar into account. I might need to trim a few
> boards to width though I think if I remove the bark that will take
> care of the issues on the butt end of the first log. Taking the bark
> off also will keep the chain sharp longer as there is a lot of grit
> in bark.
sounds like you will have a nice stockpile of ash to use in about a
"John Grossbohlin" <nospam....@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
> I plan to mill it with a chainsaw mill... 36" bar on the MS461 gives
> me about 29" of cutting capacity taking the Alaskan mill attachment
> and roller nose on the bar into account. I might need to trim a few
> boards to width though I think if I remove the bark that will take
> care of the issues on the butt end of the first log. Taking the bark
> off also will keep the chain sharp longer as there is a lot of grit
> in bark.
year
i have turned some spindles of ash but that is about the extent
of my experience with it
it was really nice to turn
> Around here if you notify the owner in writing that there is a
> problem and something happens they are liable...
there must be more to it than just sending an opinion in a letter
in your case it sounds like you are qualified to pass judgement on
the tree
this could be abused by nasty people
John Grossbohlin
May 12, 2016, 8:01:52 AM5/12/16
to
"Electric Comet" wrote in message news:nh0gu5$ekv$3...@dont-email.me...
>On Wed, 11 May 2016 17:11:25 -0400
>"John Grossbohlin" <nospam....@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
>sounds like you will have a nice stockpile of ash to use in about a
>year
Probably sooner as the tree was dead and was drying out already...
>> Around here if you notify the owner in writing that there is a
>> problem and something happens they are liable...
>interesting
>there must be more to it than just sending an opinion in a letter
>in your case it sounds like you are qualified to pass judgement on
>the tree
>this could be abused by nasty people
A few photographs will easily show the lean and proximity of the ash trees
to the shed and the property line. I've had to clean up the tops and
branches of some of the neighbor's maple trees already--they died due to wet
feet--that fell in an area where there was nothing to damage. Some of those
dead maple trees however can reach the garage if they came down in whole.
The landowner isn't adverse to cutting trees as he cleared a fairly large
area for a horse pasture... whether he is a responsible neighbor is yet to
be determined!
>On Wed, 11 May 2016 17:11:25 -0400
>"John Grossbohlin" <nospam....@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
>sounds like you will have a nice stockpile of ash to use in about a
>year
>> Around here if you notify the owner in writing that there is a
>> problem and something happens they are liable...
>interesting
>there must be more to it than just sending an opinion in a letter
>in your case it sounds like you are qualified to pass judgement on
>the tree
>this could be abused by nasty people
to the shed and the property line. I've had to clean up the tops and
branches of some of the neighbor's maple trees already--they died due to wet
feet--that fell in an area where there was nothing to damage. Some of those
dead maple trees however can reach the garage if they came down in whole.
The landowner isn't adverse to cutting trees as he cleared a fairly large
area for a horse pasture... whether he is a responsible neighbor is yet to
be determined!
DerbyDad03
May 12, 2016, 2:09:42 PM5/12/16
to
I should have looked up my snowblower repair instructions before attempting
the repair, but it looked so simple.
The end of the spring that popped out of the slot on the case was right
there, lying against the inside of the case. All I had to do was stretch it
back into the slot.
Hmmm...it doesn't seem to want to reach the slot. Maybe if I remove this bolt
I'll have more play. SPROING! Oh crap, now what do I do? Stretch, pull,
sproing. Stretch, pull, sproing. Wash, rinse, repeat.
2 hours later I took my raw, spring battered knuckles inside to check out
youtube. Hey, look at that...I'm messing with the wrong spring! There was
nothing wrong with that one until I messed with it. Oh, you need a special
tensioning tool to rewind it? Sh*t.
Put it in the trailer, take it to the dealer, and $50 later the "good spring"
was reattached, the actual broken spring was replaced and all cables and
linkages were properly adjusted. The tech told me that I probably would
never have gotten that spring back on without the tool. It didn't make me
feel like less of an idiot for taking it off in the first place.
Had I looked at the video first, it would have been a $5, 10 minute fix to
replace the spring that had really broken.
DerbyDad03
May 12, 2016, 2:23:44 PM5/12/16
to
At least that's the way it was done in college. ;-)
DerbyDad03
May 12, 2016, 2:47:30 PM5/12/16
to
On Wednesday, May 11, 2016 at 1:45:08 PM UTC-4, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
...snip...
> In my neighborhood, the insurance companies are very proactive. If there is
> a tree that is leaning towards your house, you tell your insurance agent
> about it. They come out and look at it and if they think it is a problem,
> they write a letter which explains that they will need to pay out if any
> damage is caused by your tree. And they will sue to recover those damages.
> That often acts as a good motivator.
>
The house next to mine is a rental. A few years back a large limb from a tree
on that lot came down on my house. Minimal damage to my property, but a lot of clean-up. Before I called my insurance company, I called the landlord, just
to let him know what had happened and that I was calling my ins co. He said OK
and seemed fine with it at the time.
Well, apparently, my ins co called his ins co and told them that the tree
was a risk. If there was another claim, my ins co was going to go after his
ins co for payment. His ins co then contacted him telling him that he should do
something about the tree because they may not be willing to pay on any future
claim related to damage caused by the tree - either on his property or any
other.
So he comes knocking on *my* door, pissing and moaning that I blew him
in to his ins co and asking why didn't I handle it "like a man." I calmly
reminded him that he was the first one that I called when it happened, that
I told him that I was going to call my ins co and that he had said OK.
Anything that happened after that was between the ins co's and that I had
not contacted his carrier. "I don't even know who your ins co is." I also
calmly told him that he could be damn sure that I wouldn't be calling him
first if there was another incident with that tree. I'm pretty sure he left
even more pissed than when he showed up.
...snip...
> In my neighborhood, the insurance companies are very proactive. If there is
> a tree that is leaning towards your house, you tell your insurance agent
> about it. They come out and look at it and if they think it is a problem,
> they write a letter which explains that they will need to pay out if any
> damage is caused by your tree. And they will sue to recover those damages.
> That often acts as a good motivator.
>
on that lot came down on my house. Minimal damage to my property, but a lot of clean-up. Before I called my insurance company, I called the landlord, just
to let him know what had happened and that I was calling my ins co. He said OK
and seemed fine with it at the time.
Well, apparently, my ins co called his ins co and told them that the tree
was a risk. If there was another claim, my ins co was going to go after his
ins co for payment. His ins co then contacted him telling him that he should do
something about the tree because they may not be willing to pay on any future
claim related to damage caused by the tree - either on his property or any
other.
So he comes knocking on *my* door, pissing and moaning that I blew him
in to his ins co and asking why didn't I handle it "like a man." I calmly
reminded him that he was the first one that I called when it happened, that
I told him that I was going to call my ins co and that he had said OK.
Anything that happened after that was between the ins co's and that I had
not contacted his carrier. "I don't even know who your ins co is." I also
calmly told him that he could be damn sure that I wouldn't be calling him
first if there was another incident with that tree. I'm pretty sure he left
even more pissed than when he showed up.
Bill
May 12, 2016, 3:10:05 PM5/12/16
to
nothing is broken! : )
DerbyDad03
May 12, 2016, 3:49:28 PM5/12/16
to
My motto is: If it ain't broken, modify it.
Leon
May 12, 2016, 5:17:35 PM5/12/16
to
krw
May 12, 2016, 7:25:55 PM5/12/16
to
cl...@snyder.on.ca
May 13, 2016, 1:09:46 AM5/13/16
to
Unknown
May 13, 2016, 1:55:44 AM5/13/16
to
cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote in
news:nboajbtd02qhmbbd5...@4ax.com:
Could you imagine the Universe if it was designed by "trial and error"?
It'd probably be like a lot of software...
Puckdropper
news:nboajbtd02qhmbbd5...@4ax.com:
It'd probably be like a lot of software...
Puckdropper
krw
May 13, 2016, 1:15:48 PM5/13/16
to
On 13 May 2016 05:55:41 GMT, Puckdropper
Priceless!
cl...@snyder.on.ca
May 13, 2016, 8:42:49 PM5/13/16
to
On 13 May 2016 05:55:41 GMT, Puckdropper
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:
built" documentation. Their "onboard software" would serve to support
their thesis.
Sonny
May 13, 2016, 10:58:08 PM5/13/16
to
On Wednesday, May 11, 2016 at 5:22:37 PM UTC-5, krw wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2016 08:45:06 -0700, Electric Comet
>
> On Wed, 11 May 2016 08:45:06 -0700, Electric Comet
>
> >a lot like writing documentation
> >
> I'm sure you hate documentation. Punctuation and shift keys take a
> lot of effort.
>
LOL.
> >
> I'm sure you hate documentation. Punctuation and shift keys take a
> lot of effort.
>
Been away, just catching up on threads...
Another situation: Around here, a leaning rotten/dead tree (proven threat) can be mandated to be taken down... the owner has no say so. If the owner doesn't comply, the city will do it and charge the owner. Not sure how one proves it to be a threat, but I suppose there are parameters (and multiple pro opinions) for determining.
Sonny
Brewster
May 14, 2016, 10:07:52 AM5/14/16
to
The typical design process is:
Hardware people make a design and any missing/iffy parts are left to the
software people to deal with.
The software people write the code and any missing/iffy parts are left
to the document/manual writers to work out.
Tech writers type up the manuals and any missing/iffy parts are left for
the end user to figure out.
-BR
Brewster
May 14, 2016, 10:09:11 AM5/14/16
to
writers...
-BR
krw
May 14, 2016, 11:08:58 AM5/14/16
to
problem is that no one had a complete specification in the first
place. When I worked for IBM, a *complete* specification was a
requirement. The specification was half the work and drove all of the
rest of the above "people".
From another job... Inverting a signal isn't so much of an "iffy
bit". I was once told by our software engineer that flipping a bit
was too difficult because he'd have to release all his code.
Management bought it, so I had to spin a board (several thousand
dollars - and a couple of month hit to the schedule), re-test,
re-release all of the documentation. All *real* money. He had to
re-release his code (something that happened fairly regularly anyway)
because the all of hardware part numbers changed.
Unknown
May 14, 2016, 12:59:34 PM5/14/16
to
Brewster <b...@spambegon.net> wrote in news:nh7bi1$1c9a$2...@gioia.aioe.org:
[Build a Bridge] -> <Is Bridge still Standing?> --Yes--> [Good Job!]
^ V------------------ No ^-----------------------
| [Oops!] --> [Add another layer of abstraction and try again]
-------------[Perhaps Regular Expressions would help?] <---
^ V------------------ No ^-----------------------
| [Oops!] --> [Add another layer of abstraction and try again]
-------------[Perhaps Regular Expressions would help?] <---
DerbyDad03
May 14, 2016, 3:14:11 PM5/14/16
to
submit their "requirements". They'll post what they want the code to do
and I'll respond with a macro that fulfills their stated requirements.
Their next response will often be: "Hey thanks! That works great. Now
can you make it do "this"?" I'll chastise them a bit about incomplete
requirements, rework the code and then post it.
"Hey thanks again! Sorry about leaving out those extra requirements. BTW,
can you also make it do "this"?"
It's at that point that I'll usually ask them what they think would happen
if they were actually paying for the code and kept adding requirements after
the contracted-for specifications had been met. Do they think that they can
just expect re-work after re-work with no implications - either additional
costs or bloated code with all sorts of bolt-ons that impact the efficiency
and maintainability?
I can only hope that it plants a seed for the next time they need help -
even if it's free help.
...snip...
Bill
May 14, 2016, 3:33:07 PM5/14/16
to
DerbyDad03 wrote:
> "Hey thanks again! Sorry about leaving out those extra requirements.
> BTW, can you also make it do "this"?" It's at that point that I'll
> usually ask them what they think would happen if they were actually
> paying for the code and kept adding requirements after the
> contracted-for specifications had been met. Do they think that they
> can just expect re-work after re-work with no implications - either
> additional costs or bloated code with all sorts of bolt-ons that
> impact the efficiency and maintainability?
> I can only hope that it plants a seed for the next time they need help
> - even if it's free help. ...snip...
Good luck with that!
> "Hey thanks again! Sorry about leaving out those extra requirements.
> BTW, can you also make it do "this"?" It's at that point that I'll
> usually ask them what they think would happen if they were actually
> paying for the code and kept adding requirements after the
> contracted-for specifications had been met. Do they think that they
> can just expect re-work after re-work with no implications - either
> additional costs or bloated code with all sorts of bolt-ons that
> impact the efficiency and maintainability?
> I can only hope that it plants a seed for the next time they need help
> - even if it's free help. ...snip...
Bill
BTW, my wife came to me the other day asking me how to get rid of the
annoying message that kept appearing on her screen. It said "Out of
file space". It's beside the point that there is a second drive on the
machine that has 50GB of free space. It might as well not even be there.
I think I'll go find her a few more GB to work with...
John Grossbohlin
May 14, 2016, 4:47:57 PM5/14/16
to
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
news:fc595023-1b19-4060...@googlegroups.com...
>I can only hope that it plants a seed for the next time they need help -
>even if it's free help.
I've been watching for decades for things to be different... hasn't happened
and I doubt it ever will. I see a lot of what I refer to as "western movie
set" applications done with tools like MS Access... fancy interface with
barely anything behind it or things that don't work correctly. IT hasn't
supported the Excel or Access apps in any company where I've worked... nor
on the college campuses. Those apps are the business's problem and very few
"in the business" have formal training. IT also hides behind the phrase "out
of scope" as a dynamic business environment moves forward IT checks off
their "in scope" boxes... the finished product doesn't meet the business
needs. It's been like this for decades... Agile is the latest thing to raise
it's head in my business circles... at least it looks like something is
getting done. ;~)
news:fc595023-1b19-4060...@googlegroups.com...
>I can only hope that it plants a seed for the next time they need help -
>even if it's free help.
and I doubt it ever will. I see a lot of what I refer to as "western movie
set" applications done with tools like MS Access... fancy interface with
barely anything behind it or things that don't work correctly. IT hasn't
supported the Excel or Access apps in any company where I've worked... nor
on the college campuses. Those apps are the business's problem and very few
"in the business" have formal training. IT also hides behind the phrase "out
of scope" as a dynamic business environment moves forward IT checks off
their "in scope" boxes... the finished product doesn't meet the business
needs. It's been like this for decades... Agile is the latest thing to raise
it's head in my business circles... at least it looks like something is
getting done. ;~)
cl...@snyder.on.ca
May 14, 2016, 4:56:44 PM5/14/16
to
clear mission statement for the project, combined with terminal
feature creep. When the programmer starts programming he has no idea
of what the actual requirements are for the program, and before he
gets that (whatever it is) figured out, there are a dozen or more
features thrown in - whether requirements, or just "gee whiz, I didn't
know I could do THAT!!!"
If the requirements were properly laid out, and the processes properly
flow charted, a programmer today could still do the equivalent of
running a full featured spread sheet on a 4K machine with a 4.3Mhz 8
bit processor. And the documentation would be adequate and accurate
enough to allow a programmer 20 years from now to modify it as
necessary - and even understand what the program was doing and how.
In todays (custom software in particular) world, fixing one problem or
adding one feature invariably causes numerous other problems - due in
Large part to totally inadequate program documentation..
DerbyDad03
May 14, 2016, 9:43:37 PM5/14/16
to
run on programs that came from a free-help forum. I know that because I've written
Excel macros to create invoices, track inventory, tracks projects, etc.
Scary indeed!
John Grossbohlin
May 14, 2016, 9:48:12 PM5/14/16
to
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
news:6972873b-788e-4564...@googlegroups.com...
>What's even scarier is that I know for a fact that some businesses are
>being
>run on programs that came from a free-help forum. I know that because I've
>written
>Excel macros to create invoices, track inventory, tracks projects, etc.
>Scary indeed!
My father's theory is that the only reason any business survives is because
they are all screwed up... ;~)
news:6972873b-788e-4564...@googlegroups.com...
>What's even scarier is that I know for a fact that some businesses are
>being
>run on programs that came from a free-help forum. I know that because I've
>written
>Excel macros to create invoices, track inventory, tracks projects, etc.
>Scary indeed!
they are all screwed up... ;~)
Brewster
May 15, 2016, 11:23:49 AM5/15/16
to
> The source of most of that problem is a combination of lack of a
> clear mission statement for the project, combined with terminal
> feature creep. When the programmer starts programming he has no idea
> of what the actual requirements are for the program, and before he
> gets that (whatever it is) figured out, there are a dozen or more
> features thrown in - whether requirements, or just "gee whiz, I didn't
> know I could do THAT!!!"
>
> If the requirements were properly laid out, and the processes properly
> flow charted, a programmer today could still do the equivalent of
> running a full featured spread sheet on a 4K machine with a 4.3Mhz 8
> bit processor. And the documentation would be adequate and accurate
> enough to allow a programmer 20 years from now to modify it as
> necessary - and even understand what the program was doing and how.
>
> In todays (custom software in particular) world, fixing one problem or
> adding one feature invariably causes numerous other problems - due in
> Large part to totally inadequate program documentation..
>
Amen!
> clear mission statement for the project, combined with terminal
> feature creep. When the programmer starts programming he has no idea
> of what the actual requirements are for the program, and before he
> gets that (whatever it is) figured out, there are a dozen or more
> features thrown in - whether requirements, or just "gee whiz, I didn't
> know I could do THAT!!!"
>
> If the requirements were properly laid out, and the processes properly
> flow charted, a programmer today could still do the equivalent of
> running a full featured spread sheet on a 4K machine with a 4.3Mhz 8
> bit processor. And the documentation would be adequate and accurate
> enough to allow a programmer 20 years from now to modify it as
> necessary - and even understand what the program was doing and how.
>
> In todays (custom software in particular) world, fixing one problem or
> adding one feature invariably causes numerous other problems - due in
> Large part to totally inadequate program documentation..
>
My current project is first defined by the end users (scientists)
dreaming up a set of features that 'would be great' and others that are
needed. Nothing wrong with that, but still rather vague. The hardware
people make the 'mechanics' possible. All the while management wants a
complete middleware design before any work begins. I get a good laugh
when rereading those docs and comparing with what we had to do to get
there.
Some projects are simple enough to do the fully engineered program,
others are just too cutting edge or completely beyond anything done
before you always end up doing the 'spiral' where you get the thing
working, re-design, re-work, etc.
I had an embedded processor that I had managed to get all the code into
a few MBs of memory. At one point someone wanted a web server built in
so they added not one, but two tomcat servers, full blown features,
written in Java. Needed to up the memory from 64M to 1 GB.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
May 15, 2016, 4:41:41 PM5/15/16
to
you make it pretty!!. Doesn't matter how glitsy the interface is if it
doesn't do the job.
Or the other one - It doesn't matter if you've got your shit together
- if it's shit - it's still shit..
John Grossbohlin
May 15, 2016, 7:22:36 PM5/15/16
to
wrote in message news:ejnhjb5e40g05hm01...@4ax.com...
>The old addage needs to be remembered - first you make it work - THEN
>you make it pretty!!. Doesn't matter how glitsy the interface is if it
>doesn't do the job.
I seem to run into more glitzy front ends than I do things that work...
Management buys into the pretty front end and assumes it actually does what
the front end suggests it does. I've had to fix three of those types of
apps in recent months. The same developer built all three... and changed
roles leaving the dysfunctional mess behind.
> Or the other one - It doesn't matter if you've got your shit together
>- if it's shit - it's still shit..
Garbage in... Gospel out...
>The old addage needs to be remembered - first you make it work - THEN
>you make it pretty!!. Doesn't matter how glitsy the interface is if it
>doesn't do the job.
Management buys into the pretty front end and assumes it actually does what
the front end suggests it does. I've had to fix three of those types of
apps in recent months. The same developer built all three... and changed
roles leaving the dysfunctional mess behind.
> Or the other one - It doesn't matter if you've got your shit together
>- if it's shit - it's still shit..
Jack
May 23, 2016, 4:07:39 PM5/23/16
to
On 5/11/2016 1:45 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
> In my neighborhood, the insurance companies are very proactive. If
> there is a tree that is leaning towards your house, you tell your
> insurance agent about it. They come out and look at it and if they
> think it is a problem, they write a letter which explains that they
> will need to pay out if any damage is caused by your tree. And they
> will sue to recover those damages. That often acts as a good
> motivator.
I'd tell them to contact my insurance provider. Hopefully the same
> In my neighborhood, the insurance companies are very proactive. If
> there is a tree that is leaning towards your house, you tell your
> insurance agent about it. They come out and look at it and if they
> think it is a problem, they write a letter which explains that they
> will need to pay out if any damage is caused by your tree. And they
> will sue to recover those damages. That often acts as a good
> motivator.
guys:-) Perhaps they could agree to pay a few bucks to have the thing
trimmed or removed, rather than a lot of bucks later to replace a roof
or more.
I had a friend killed by a branch falling out of his tree as he walked
up the sidewalk. Another friends daughter has a metal plate in her head
as a branch fell on her head when she was around 2 years old.
As for government, I was watching This Old House once, and in Boston,
they were not permitted to remove a dead/almost dead tree without
government permission, and they had to plant an equivalent tree some
where before they could get the permit.
Wow, talk about control freaks...
--
Jack
Got Change: Individual Freedom =======> Government Control!
http://jbstein.com
bnw...@gmail.com
May 23, 2016, 4:45:46 PM5/23/16
to
Our experience is that insurance companies used to be pro-active, and with foresight. Now, if you make them aware of a potential problem, and don't take care of it, they may choose to ignore your claim...
krw
May 23, 2016, 6:21:53 PM5/23/16
to
remove a tree from your property without an arborist's sign-off and
city permit. Of course the arborist will want to try to save the
tree, if at all possible. That's what they do.
DerbyDad03
May 23, 2016, 7:32:44 PM5/23/16
to
On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
>
>
> I'd tell them to contact my insurance provider. Hopefully the same
> guys:-) Perhaps they could agree to pay a few bucks to have the thing
> trimmed or removed, rather than a lot of bucks later to replace a roof
> or more.
Even after a large limb from the very old tree on the rental property next door fell on my house
> guys:-) Perhaps they could agree to pay a few bucks to have the thing
> trimmed or removed, rather than a lot of bucks later to replace a roof
> or more.
and my Ins Co had to pay for clean up (and some very minor damage) they would not be
pro-active and pay to remove any of the weak-looking branches still hanging over my house. I
asked, they said no.
The only thing they did was write a letter to the landlord and his ins co warning them that if
the tree caused any more damage to my property, they would go after his ins co for the
cost of claim. They would rather hope that nothing happens and if it does, hope that the
other ins co pays, than spent a few hundred bucks to prevent the possibility of a claim in
the first place.
>
> I had a friend killed by a branch falling out of his tree as he walked
> up the sidewalk. Another friends daughter has a metal plate in her head
> as a branch fell on her head when she was around 2 years old.
He was on the neighbor's swing set in one of those bucket swings, the kind
that it is difficult to get a young child out off. My neighbor's kid was in the raised fort
attached to the swing set. It was a beautiful sunny summer day.
Lunchtime came around, so I wrestled my kid out of the swing while my neighbor climbed up
into the fort and retrieved his kid. We were in the house for less than 5 minutes when
a huge limb from a tree in the next yard let go with a loud crack and landed on the swing
set. It landed "lengthwise", completely crushing the swing section and the fort. The
swing my son was in was barely visible as it lay on the ground under the main part
of the branch.
There is no way we would have gotten either kid out of the swing/fort before the branch
came down. There was no warning. It was crack...crush.
The wive's were crying and hugging the kids. I gotta admit, both my friend and I got
teary eyed too. That was close.
...snip...
Jack
May 28, 2016, 9:15:31 AM5/28/16
to
On 5/23/2016 4:45 PM, bnw...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
>> On 5/11/2016 1:45 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>>
>>> In my neighborhood, the insurance companies are very proactive. If
>>> there is a tree that is leaning towards your house, you tell your
>>> insurance agent about it. They come out and look at it and if they
>>> think it is a problem, they write a letter which explains that they
>>> will need to pay out if any damage is caused by your tree. And they
>>> will sue to recover those damages. That often acts as a good
>>> motivator.
>>
>> I'd tell them to contact my insurance provider. Hopefully the same
>> guys:-) Perhaps they could agree to pay a few bucks to have the thing
>> trimmed or removed, rather than a lot of bucks later to replace a roof
>> or more.
> On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
>> On 5/11/2016 1:45 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>>
>>> In my neighborhood, the insurance companies are very proactive. If
>>> there is a tree that is leaning towards your house, you tell your
>>> insurance agent about it. They come out and look at it and if they
>>> think it is a problem, they write a letter which explains that they
>>> will need to pay out if any damage is caused by your tree. And they
>>> will sue to recover those damages. That often acts as a good
>>> motivator.
>>
>> I'd tell them to contact my insurance provider. Hopefully the same
>> guys:-) Perhaps they could agree to pay a few bucks to have the thing
>> trimmed or removed, rather than a lot of bucks later to replace a roof
>> or more.
> Jack,
> Our experience is that insurance companies used to be pro-active, and with foresight. Now, if you make them aware of a potential problem, and don't take care of it, they may choose to ignore your claim...
Last year my daughter's sewer backed up in her basement. They called a
> Our experience is that insurance companies used to be pro-active, and with foresight. Now, if you make them aware of a potential problem, and don't take care of it, they may choose to ignore your claim...
plumber and he said they have a "flat spot" in the basement pipe and to
fix it right, they would need to dig up the cement floor. Would cost
around $5G's. The plumber told her there was an excellent chance her
insurance company would cover most, if not all of it. I told her
plumbers are notorious liars and I've heard the flat spot garbage
several time before, and, I'd doubt the insurance company (Erie) would
cover it unless she had some kind of special coverage. Well, not only
did Erie cover most of it, they covered all of it less deductible, and I
think it was $7G's. They told her it was cheaper than paying for
repeated sewerage damage.
I was of course shocked and amazed.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
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