Sanding tree rings for viewing under a microscope

[jcor...@gmail.com]

I currently use successive grits of sandpaper to smooth down the end grain on wood cores for viewing tree rings down to the cell. I use 220, 320, 400, 600, 800, and 1200 grit aluminum oxide sandpaper. The only problem is that the sandpaper clogs up with wood shavings very quickly and even after rubbing with a rubber gum eraser, the sandpaper already feels less smooth. Is there anything wrong with my method or type of sandpaper I use? What brand or type of sandpaper would last the longest and provide the cleanest finish under this situation?

[Bob Villa]

On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 8:19:51 PM UTC-5, jcor...@gmail.com wrote:
> I currently use successive grits of sandpaper to smooth down the end grain on wood cores for viewing tree rings down to the cell. I use 220, 320, 400, 600, 800, and 1200 grit aluminum oxide sandpaper. The only problem is that the sandpaper clogs up with wood shavings very quickly and even after rubbing with a rubber gum eraser, the sandpaper already feels less smooth. Is there anything wrong with my method or type of sandpaper I use? What brand or type of sandpaper would last the longest and provide the cleanest finish under this situation?

Have you tried 3M Wet or Dry and use turpentine? Never did it, but came to mind...

[MOP CAP]

Why not try a plane?
CP

[jcor...@gmail.com]

I have only tried gator

[jcor...@gmail.com]

I have thought of this but realized that it would require an excessive amount sharpening and money to be worth the effort.

[jcor...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 9:26:32 PM UTC-4, Bob Villa wrote:

What is turpentine used for?

[Unknown]

jcor...@gmail.com wrote in
news:eea235b1-424e-4235...@googlegroups.com:

>
> I have only tried gator

Time to get out of Lowe's. Look for the Norton 3X paper and give that a
try. You might be able to get a sample pack so you don't have to invest
too much in the paper.

I had some 3M 3x paper that fit the "mouse" sander. It was pretty decent
stuff.

If you're doing this on a regular basis, it might be worth looking at
Festool. Their sander is half of the equation, the top quality papers is
the other half. Festool is a "cry once" tool, as in you only cry when you
buy it but never again.

Puckdropper

[Unknown]

jcor...@gmail.com wrote in
news:9adaa9d2-f20c-4b73...@googlegroups.com:

>
> I have thought of this but realized that it would require an excessive
> amount sharpening and money to be worth the effort.

Really? Once you do the intial sharpening where the appropriate surfaces
are made flat the edge only needs to be refreshed every now and again. If
it takes more than 5 minutes, you've got bigger problems.

You can invest a couple grand in sharpening systems, or spend less than
$100 on jigs and sandpaper. $15 extra for Leonard Lee's The Complete Guide
to Sharpening.

Puckdropper

[graham]

I agree with CP. In microscopy, a microtome is used to take ultra-thin
slices for examination. The blades on old models were steel that had to
be honed to cut-throat razor standard. Abrasives would just clog up the
pores, which I would imagine you are trying to avoid.
Graham

[Bob Villa]

It keeps the sandpaper cleaner and "cuts" better than being dry.

[jcor...@gmail.com]

Does the Norton 3X paper come in grits higher than 400 grit since that is all I can find.

[whit3rd]

On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 6:29:38 PM UTC-7, jcor...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 9:27:10 PM UTC-4, MOP CAP wrote:
> > On 2016-06-16 01:19:48 +0000, jcor...@gmail.com said:
> >
> > > I currently use successive grits of sandpaper to smooth down the

> > > end grain on wood cores ...

> > Why not try a plane?

> I have thought of this but realized that it would require an excessive amount sharpening and money to be worth the effort.

Have no fear. While you can't just buy a cheap plane and use it out-of-the-box, a variety
of useful planes are available, and a simple whetstone (maybe an angle guide, too) is
all it takes to put a fine edge on it. The small amount of wood you want to remove (a few
cubic centimeters) will make crumbs if your edge is too dull, shavings if it's sharp enough.
And clean enough (gotta keep the sole and edge free of sap).

[Sonny]

On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 3:49:41 AM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:

> Have no fear. While you can't just buy a cheap plane and use it out-of-the-box, a variety
> of useful planes are available, and a simple whetstone (maybe an angle guide, too) is
> all it takes to put a fine edge on it. The small amount of wood you want to remove (a few
> cubic centimeters) will make crumbs if your edge is too dull, shavings if it's sharp enough.
> And clean enough (gotta keep the sole and edge free of sap).

Agreed. A reasonable, yet not terribly expensive, plane is likely all you need. It's not that hard to hone the iron (after initial sharpening), with 1000, 2000, 3000 grit sand paper.

I assume your core sample is greem wood, or has some higher moisture content, than "typical(?) dried wood", hence that moisture is contributing to the clogging of your sand paper. If this is the case, then, yeah, 'most any sand paper will likely clog up.

As Karl mentioned, on the other thread, try a card/cabinet scraper. For that small of surface width, a well honed (hunting, Buck, butcher's) knife blade can be used as a card scraper.

I don't want to sound rude, but it seems you've been dealing with this issue for some time. Another option is to find a woodworker, with some decent hand planes, in your area, and ask for some assistance. Most woodworkers I know (as posters, here) would be happy to help, probably at no cost.

Sonny

[Scott Lurndal]

There is a whole field of study (dendrochronology) that create
and analyze cores. Why not call up the local university and
ask them? Or stop by the university library and check out a book
on dendrochronology and read up on how the professionals analyze
cores.

http://web.utk.edu/~grissino/principles.htm
http://web.utk.edu/~grissino/supplies.htm


I would expect that a sufficiently sharp coring tool will create
a burnished surface sufficient to count the rings, no sanding required.

[jcor...@gmail.com]

Almost every university uses sanpaper to surface the cores. The surface must be flat in order to count the rings; an increment borer produces a rounded surface.

[jcor...@gmail.com]

My core samples are all dry wood. None of the universities use planers but use sandpaper instead which suggests that maybe a planer would not work as well on surfacing the cores to provide a smooth enough surface to count the tree rings.

[jcor...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 6:45:42 AM UTC-4, Sonny wrote:

There is an organization that uses a "core microtome" to surface cores using BA-50 NT cutter blades. The only problem is that they can only surface one or two samples before the blade becomes dull and they have to replace it. Would not the same thing happen with a hand plane or is the steel of a better quality?

[Swingman]

On 6/16/2016 10:01 AM, jcor...@gmail.com wrote:

> Almost every university uses sanpaper to surface the cores. The surface must be flat in order to count the rings; an increment borer produces a rounded surface.

I don't mind being rude at all. Have you actually tried any of the
solutions offered here?

Seems like you have a comeback for every suggestion ... here's another:

If you haven't done so, do what academic research is supposedly about
... "experiment".


--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

[Sonny]

On Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 10:10:09 AM UTC-5, jcor...@gmail.com wrote:

> There is an organization that uses a "core microtome" to surface cores using BA-50 NT cutter blades. The only problem is that they can only surface one or two samples before the blade becomes dull and they have to replace it. Would not the same thing happen with a hand plane or is the steel of a better quality?

A sharp hand plane should do well. That's what planes are for, slicing wood.

Those NT cutter blades are cheap. Replacing them should be no problem. Even surgical scalpel blades need to be changed now and then. A straight edged carving chisel blade or a paring chisel is (or can be) razor sharp, also, and might be cheaper than a hand plane.

Sonny

[Doug Miller]

jcor...@gmail.com wrote in
news:eea235b1-424e-4235...@googlegroups.com:

> On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 9:26:32 PM UTC-4, Bob Villa
> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 8:19:51 PM UTC-5,
>> jcor...@gmail.com wrote:

[...]

> The only problem is that the sandpaper clogs up with wood
> shavings very quickly

[...]

> I have only tried gator

There's part of your problem -- that stuff is crap. Use 3M or Norton instead, and garnet (reddish
brown) or corundum (black) abrasive instead of aluminum oxide.

I wonder also how thoroughly dried the wood is. Green (wet) wood will clog any sandpaper.

[Doug Miller]

jcor...@gmail.com wrote in
news:23ad0693-4390-4f19...@googlegroups.com:

> My core samples are all dry wood. None of the universities use
> planers but use sandpaper instead which suggests that maybe a
> planer would not work as well on surfacing the cores to provide
> a smooth enough surface to count the tree rings.
>

Not a planer, a plane. A planer is a power tool for surfacing wood, a plane is a hand tool.

[jcor...@gmail.com]

I meant the hand tool.

[dadiOH]

Doug Miller wrote:
> jcor...@gmail.com wrote in
> news:eea235b1-424e-4235...@googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 9:26:32 PM UTC-4, Bob Villa
>> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 8:19:51 PM UTC-5,
>>> jcor...@gmail.com wrote:
> [...]
>> The only problem is that the sandpaper clogs up with wood
>> shavings very quickly
> [...]
>> I have only tried gator
>
> There's part of your problem -- that stuff is crap. Use 3M or Norton
> instead, and garnet (reddish brown) or corundum (black) abrasive
> instead of aluminum oxide.

Corundum IS aluminum oxide. The black is silicon carbide (AKA carborundum)
or - maybe - emery (AKA corundum) which is ALSO aluminum oxide. Why did you
suggest garnet?

[dadiOH]

After you have sanded to a fine grit, what did you do to remove the residual
dust? Try washing with mineral spirits and - when dry - wiping with a
microfiber cloth.

[Swingman]

On 6/16/2016 5:45 AM, Sonny wrote:
> As Karl mentioned, on the other thread, try a card/cabinet scraper. For that small of surface width, a well honed (hunting, Buck, butcher's) knife blade can be used as a card scraper.

I have actually used a Hyde scraper (with a new blade) to make half
round stock out of off-the-shelf, wooden dowel rods.

Amazing how quickly it worked.

While the grain direction is different with a tree ring core, and as
long as it has been dried, I would at least try a careful application of
a properly scrapper, it might now work with some woods.

If that didn't work, a sharp razor/exacto blade.

AMMOF, in a botany course in college 50 years ago, I used a sharp knife
to do the same thing the OP is agonizing over.

[Doug Miller]

"dadiOH" <dad...@invalid.com> wrote in news:njutbc$big$1...@dont-email.me:

Yes, you're right, I meant carborundum, not corundum. I suggested garnet because IME
garnet sandpapers wear *much* better than aluminum oxide papers. Garnet seems to stay
sharper a lot longer.
>

[John Grossbohlin]

wrote in message
news:32af10f4-3b43-4679...@googlegroups.com...

> I currently use successive grits of sandpaper to smooth down the end
> grain on wood cores for viewing tree rings down to the cell. I use 220,
> 320, 400, 600, 800, and 1200 grit aluminum >oxide sandpaper. The only
> problem is that the sandpaper clogs up with wood shavings very quickly and
> even after rubbing with a rubber gum eraser, the sandpaper already feels
> less smooth. >Is there anything wrong with my method or type of sandpaper
> I use? What brand or type of sandpaper would last the longest and provide
> the cleanest finish under this situation?

The "wood experts" in my club either use a plane or chisel to clean up end
grain as part of the wood identification process. They use a loupe in their
work and look at the cell structure to help make a determination as to
species.

Unless you are trying to clean up the whole end of a log, for example, I'd
think that a half-way decent 1/2" chisel, properly sharpened, would suffice
for your purposes. If the wood is smooth to begin with, and relatively
large, even a properly prepared card scrapper may suffice as all you need to
do is remove the oxidized surface.

Quite frankly, crosscuts of dried wood made with my freshly sharpened
Forrest WWII are very clean. Under magnification I can generally see the
cells of most species without any further preparation effort...

[Leon]

Keep in mind that Garnet seems to stay sharp longer because it re-
fractures with use and therefore creates new cutting surfaces.

The drawback however is that as the garnet breaks down it also tends to
change to a finer grit so sanding to a consistent smoothness with
several pieces of paper over different surfaces might be tricky.

If you are looking for a long lasting paper the Festool Granat, lite
blue colored, sand paper lasts a very very long time compared to any
paper I have used. It is very resistant to loading up, even when
removing cured finishes. I have had a single piece of this paper last
over the coarse of 2~3 complete projects and still remain sharp. It is
now what I use exclusively.

[J. Clarke]

In article <66cf8eb1-a06d-490b...@googlegroups.com>,
jcor...@gmail.com says...

Is there an auto parts store near you? If so try them. They should
have sandpaper to thousand grit or higher. If there's a Woodcraft they
have it to 12,000.

[Jack]

On 6/16/2016 4:57 PM, Doug Miller wrote:

>I suggested garnet because IME garnet sandpapers wear *much* better than aluminum oxide papers. 0

>Garnet seems to stay sharper a lot longer.

I have Garnet paper that has lasted over 40 years, because about the
only time I use it is for facing jigs I don't want to slide. Garnet
paper is hard to find because it wears poorly and has all but been
replaced with aluminum oxide. It doesn't last long enough to worry
about staying sharp, both I guess is due to it's easiness to fracture.
Its main claim to fame is it's cheap, and it is.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

[jcor...@gmail.com]

I found aluminum oxide up to 400 grit. Since aluminum oxide does not seem to go above 400 grit, would silicone carbide last for wood?

[Spalted Walt]

jcor...@gmail.com wrote:

>
>I found aluminum oxide up to 400 grit. Since aluminum oxide does not seem to go above 400 grit

Are you serious? (or trolling...)

800 grit: https://www.airgas.com/p/NOR66261139382
1200 grit: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00UXDWRV4/
1500 grit: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00UXDWS9U/

[Just Wondering]

https://www.amazon.com/SANDING-SHEETS-INTRODUCTORY-Peachtree-Woodworking/dp/B000H6HIK2/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1466585785&sr=8-4&keywords=4000+grit+sand+paper

https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Polishing-Waterproof-Abrasive-Plastics/dp/B00LXZAB5K/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1466585781&sr=8-2&keywords=4000+grit+sand+paper

https://www.amazon.com/3M-Tri-M-ite-Micron-Green-Polishing/dp/B00WTHK354/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1466585642&sr=8-4&keywords=8000+grit+sand+paper

https://www.amazon.com/Zona-37-948-Polishing-11-Inch-Assortment/dp/B001BHGC7G/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1466585478&sr=8-12&keywords=wet+or+dry+sandpaper

[Spalted Walt]

Apparently you totally missed the "aluminum oxide" part. :-/

[Just Wondering]

Did you see jcoruddata's original post? "Is there anything
wrong with [the] type of sandpaper I use?" "What type of
sandpaper would provide the cleanest finish? The query
obviously is not limited to an aluminum oxide solution.

[J. Clarke]

In article <9310da4d-f28e-4a10...@googlegroups.com>,
jcor...@gmail.com says...

Works fine. 1000 grit shouldn't have a lot to do--you should have been
through 600 and 800 first. If you want 1000 grit specifically for wood
and can't find it elsewhere, Klinspor is a good source
<https://www.woodworkingshop.com/>