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Lynn Guini
Quebec, you'll rarely find any need for it. Such has been my experience
in the past 35 years, visiting about 100 countries. Spanish is far more
useful, and German anywhere in Europe east of France.
Des Small
As-tu visité à Tchad ou à Rouanda, par exemple ?
Et il y a quand même des gens qui veulent visiter à la France,
(ou au Belgique ou à la Suisse).
Des
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Lynn Guini wrote:
> French is all but useless for travel. Apart from France and parts of
> Quebec,
.....and most of Belgium and parts of Switzerland? (I
think parts of North Africa also speak French as a second
language, along with whatever they learn at their mother's
knee.)
you'll rarely find any need for it.
Define "need". True, most Americans get along just fine
anywhere with English (although they may not exactly endear
themselves to the natives).
> Such has been my experience
> in the past 35 years, visiting about 100 countries. Spanish is far more
> useful, and German anywhere in Europe east of France.
Doesn't that depend upon where you are going, and the
educational level of the people you will be meeting? Most
of us, alas, cannot be fluent in every language we are
likely to encounter, but a few basic phrases in each are
always useful, and if one CAN conveniently learn enough for
a bit of conversation, why not at least try?
eetinBelgië
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote:
> Lynn Guini wrote:
> > French is all but useless for travel. Apart from France and parts of
> > Quebec,
>
> .....and most of Belgium
there are more native Flemish speakers in Belgium
and there are more native Portuguese speakers on the planet
Padraig Breathnach
>... Most
>of us, alas, cannot be fluent in every language we are
>likely to encounter, but a few basic phrases in each are
>always useful, and if one CAN conveniently learn enough for
>a bit of conversation, why not at least try?
>
Conversation involves quite a good command of a language.
I think it is a good idea to learn some courtesy phrases, or at least
enough of a language to ask if somebody speaks English. If they speak
English, they can understand if you ask them in English, but the
little nicety is generally very well received, and it buys you a
certain amount of goodwill with people who do not speak English.
--
PB
The return address has been MUNGED
Dave Smith
Belgium has a population of about 10.5 million, roughly half of which is
Flemish.
Portugal has a population of 10.6 million, almost all of them Portuguese. And
then there is Brazil, a Portuguese speaking country with a population of more
than 180 million. So if the population of Flemish Belgium was about 40 times
larger than it is, you might be right.
Cochon Capitaliste
michael...@yahoo.com
....and the subject was, F*E*C* :)
Lynn Guini
>
> Lynn Guini wrote:
> > French is all but useless for travel. Apart from France and parts of
> > Quebec,
>
> .....and most of Belgium and parts of Switzerland? (I
> think parts of North Africa also speak French as a second
> language, along with whatever they learn at their mother's
> knee.)
Yes, I used my (then-)fluent French in Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia.
And obviously areas bordering France - and Quebec - will use French.
Doesn't add up to much of the world.
> you'll rarely find any need for it.
>
> Define "need". True, most Americans get along just fine
> anywhere with English (although they may not exactly endear
> themselves to the natives).
Most Brits, Australians and Canadians get along just fine anywhere with
English also. And generally, anyone else. I met tourists from Italy,
Spain and, yes, France, in Holland. They communicated with the Dutch in
English. Same with a Japanese guy I met in Sweden.
> > Such has been my experience
> > in the past 35 years, visiting about 100 countries. Spanish is far more
> > useful, and German anywhere in Europe east of France.
>
> Doesn't that depend upon where you are going, and the
> educational level of the people you will be meeting? Most
Obviously. If you plan to spend a lot of time in Hungary, learn
Hungarian. I'm speaking only in generalities. Most people like to
travel to multiple places.
> of us, alas, cannot be fluent in every language we are
> likely to encounter, but a few basic phrases in each are
> always useful, and if one CAN conveniently learn enough for
> a bit of conversation, why not at least try?
Who said otherwise? I couldn't agree more. Before visiting any
country, I learn about 10 phrases of politeness in their language, such
as Please, Thank You, Good Morning, Good Evening, etc. Then I try to
learn more. It shows respect.
Lynn Guini
>
> Lynn Guini <per...@pasta.com> writes:
>
> > French is all but useless for travel. Apart from France and parts
> > of Quebec, you'll rarely find any need for it. Such has been my
> > experience in the past 35 years, visiting about 100 countries.
> > Spanish is far more useful, and German anywhere in Europe east of
> > France.
>
> As-tu visité à Tchad ou à Rouanda, par exemple ?
Non. Pourquoi? Mais, pour les autres qui ne comprenent pas... Very few
people want to visit Chad. As for Rwanda, I almost went there (plus
Burundi and Zaire) many years ago to see the mountain gorillas, but I
couldn't get a suitable flight. These days, I can think of little
reason to go to any of these places.
> Et il y a quand même des gens qui veulent visiter à la France,
> (ou au Belgique ou à la Suisse).
Pour ces gens, oui, on doit etudier francais. Mais la pluspart desire
voir encore les autres pays.
Lynn Guini
>
> You've visited 100 countries? Where? via the Internet? .
In the words of St. Augustine: The world is like a book. If you stay in
one place, you're reading just one page. Try it. Lots of people have
been to far more places than I. There's even a club
(http://www.travelerscenturyclub.org/), though they do stretch the
definition of country a bit.
Dave Frightens Me
wrote:
Like Hawaii not being part of the USA!
--
---
DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
---
--
Des Small
> Des Small wrote:
> >
> > Lynn Guini <per...@pasta.com> writes:
> >
> > > French is all but useless for travel. Apart from France and parts
> > > of Quebec, you'll rarely find any need for it. Such has been my
> > > experience in the past 35 years, visiting about 100 countries.
> > > Spanish is far more useful, and German anywhere in Europe east of
> > > France.
> >
> > As-tu visité à Tchad ou à Rouanda, par exemple ?
>
> Non. Pourquoi? Mais, pour les autres qui ne comprenent pas... Very
> few people want to visit Chad.
Very few persons wish to tick off about 100 countries. (I'm using the
same research methodology as you, although it is fair to concede that
my arse may be hairier.)
> As for Rwanda, I almost went there (plus Burundi and Zaire) many
> years ago to see the mountain gorillas, but I couldn't get a
> suitable flight. These days, I can think of little reason to go to
> any of these places.
Rouanda gets advertised as a holiday destination in French magazines.
> > Et il y a quand même des gens qui veulent visiter à la France, (ou
> > au Belgique ou à la Suisse).
>
> Pour ces gens, oui, on doit etudier francais. Mais la pluspart desire
> voir encore les autres pays.
Autre que le Belgique ? Ils sont vraiment foux !
Des
Marc Lurie
African travel is concerned. African travel can be made MUCH less
difficult if you speak certain languages.
French is spoken in Algeria, Morocco, Mauretania, Cameroon, Mali,
Senegal, Ivory Coast, Benin, Niger, Chad, Rwanda, Burundi, CAR, Gabon,
both Congos, etc.
Portuguese is spoken in Angola and Mozambique, and kiSwahili is spoken
all over East Africa.
If you're in NW Tanzania then English is USELESS, and if you don't
speak kiSwahili you will battle to get around. Try NOT speaking French
in central Africa and see how far you get, or try to get around
central Angola without Portuguese if you really want a challenge.
I have to strongly disagree with Lynn Guini who asserts "French is all
but useless for travel". Lynn, not everybody travels for the same
reason as you do. Some people travel for pleasure, some for business,
some for adventure, some emigrate etc. I travel to the DRC for
business, and speaking a bit of French is incredibly useful. She also
says that "Spanish is far more useful". Apart from being similar to
Portuguese, AFAIK Spanish is spoken only in Equatorial Guinea.
Lynn, you sound like a person who likes to "tick off" countries
countries like a bird-watcher "twitches" new species. Nothing at all
wrong with that, but you must realise that not all travellers are
doing the same. Not all travellers are tourists who stay at hotels
where the staff speak some English
Marc - Johannesburg, South Africa (where French IS useless, except for
showing off to your friends in swanky restaurants, and where English
is USELESS in parts of Zululand and Eastern Cape.)
On Sat, 20 May 2006 15:18:47 -0400, Lynn Guini <per...@pasta.com>
wrote:
>French is all but useless for travel. Apart from France and parts of
Marc Lurie
Jordi
And splitting the UAE in individual emirates when most are within
spitting distance.
My personal count is 52, btw.
J.
Dave Frightens Me
Mine stands at about 40 (I have counted for a while). There's a guy
called Go Fig that frequents RTE that claims 80, but he's probably
lying.
That Travelers Century Club sounds like a group full of people like
him.
Leo
Stay in one place for a while and finish at least one book!
jord...@gmail.com
Dave Frightens Me wrote:
> On 22 May 2006 06:13:49 -0700, "Jordi" <jord...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Mine stands at about 40 (I have counted for a while). There's a guy
> called Go Fig that frequents RTE that claims 80, but he's probably
> lying.
>
> That Travelers Century Club sounds like a group full of people like
> him.
So true, looks like people rushing to cross a border just to tick
Funnychistan off the list.
J.
Marc Lurie
<deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
>Mine stands at about 40 (I have counted for a while). There's a guy
>called Go Fig that frequents RTE that claims 80, but he's probably
>lying.
>
>That Travelers Century Club sounds like a group full of people like
>him.
>--
>---
>DFM - http://www.deepfriedmars.com
>---
What criteria are required to be considered having "visited" a
country? I have been into (and stayed a while in) 46 different
countries, but I've also landed in about 7 others but either stayed on
the plane or in the airport in transit. Do these count?
If you have enough money you could do 100 countries in about two
weeks. What's the big deal? It's what you DO in these countres that
counts, not the fact that you spent 30 seconds there and then left.
Marc - Johannesburg
LekkerBelgischBier
http://www.infoplease.com/countries.html
I think you have to spend a week to visit i.e.get something out of it
LekkerBelgischBier
Dave Frightens Me wrote:
> On 22 May 2006 06:13:49 -0700, "Jordi" <jord...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Dave Frightens Me wrote:
> >> On Sun, 21 May 2006 16:56:31 -0400, Lynn Guini <per...@pasta.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Cochon Capitaliste wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> You've visited 100 countries? Where? via the Internet? .
> >> >
> >> >In the words of St. Augustine: The world is like a book. If you stay in
> >> >one place, you're reading just one page. Try it. Lots of people have
> >> >been to far more places than I. There's even a club
> >> >(http://www.travelerscenturyclub.org/), though they do stretch the
> >> >definition of country a bit.
> >>
> >> Like Hawaii not being part of the USA!
> >> --
> >
> >And splitting the UAE in individual emirates when most are within
> >spitting distance.
> >
> >My personal count is 52, btw.
>
> Mine stands at about 40 (I have counted for a while). There's a guy
> called Go Fig that frequents RTE that claims 80, but he's probably
> lying.
>
> That Travelers Century Club sounds like a group full of people like
> him.
> --
> ---
Sarah Banick
>> >
>> >And splitting the UAE in individual emirates when most are within
>> >spitting distance.
>> >
>> >My personal count is 52, btw.
>>
>> Mine stands at about 40 (I have counted for a while). There's a guy
>> called Go Fig that frequents RTE that claims 80, but he's probably
>> lying.
>>
>> That Travelers Century Club sounds like a group full of people like
>> him.
>> --
>> ---
> 'kin hell, I just counted 70, 71 with Tasmania :)
>
Hey, can we count countries that split up or otherwise change? Like
Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia? I was in Slovenia and Croatia when they were
Yugoslavia, and since the split I've been back to Croatia, Bosnia, and
Montenegro (of course it was Serbia-Montenegro at the time, but soon it will
just be Montenegro). :-) :-)
LekkerBelgischBier
of course you can !
72 with Antarctica :)
Dave Patterson
petty nonsense about who has been where and what
is a country and what is not?
Lynn Guini
> Rouanda gets advertised as a holiday destination in French magazines.
Sure. It's one of the few places they can go where people will speak
French to them.
Lynn Guini
> Lynn, you sound like a person who likes to "tick off" countries
> countries like a bird-watcher "twitches" new species. Nothing at all
How do I sound that way? All I did was state the fact that I've
travelled to many places. Having been travelling a lot every year for
over 35 years, the numbers accumulated naturally. Interestingly, in the
past 10 years or so, we've spent more time travelling every year (about
3 months), yet "ticked off" zero new countries. These days we spend a
great deal more time in individual places. A couple of years ago, for
example, we spent almost three weeks in Amsterdam, and we've just
returned from 22 days in Washington DC. Even 11 years ago, the last
time we "ticked off" new additions, we spent two weeks in Hong Kong,
three days in Macau and three weeks in Taiwan, driving literally around
the country. Much longer than most people do.
> wrong with that, but you must realise that not all travellers are
> doing the same.
As I said elsewhere, each person must examine their own needs. But of
all travellers, I contend that relatively few will be spending much time
in countries where French will be useful to them.
> Not all travellers are tourists who stay at hotels
> where the staff speak some English
Except in Canada, USA, Australia and NZ, my stays have been almost
entirely at small, family-run pensions. In two weeks of travel in
Hungary, we encountered only two people at these places that could speak
any English. My Hungarian was limited to about a dozen words of
politeness; German is the only commonly-spoken foreign language, and I
can get by on that.
And for the record, English is my second language. French is my third,
and was once good enough to get me university admittance in Canada in
place of English. It has deteriorated badly due to lack of use anywhere
I've been.
Dave Patterson
> As I said elsewhere, each person must examine their own needs. But of
> all travellers, I contend that relatively few will be spending much time
> in countries where French will be useful to them
And at some point, you must come to understand that none of us
really cares what you "contend".
Give it up, please.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Dave Patterson wrote:
You can't simply skip the thread, if it doesn't interest
you? Why add to the number of posts by complaining?
>
Dave Frightens Me
wrote:
>Can you remove rec.travel.africa from all this
>petty nonsense about who has been where and what
>is a country and what is not?
Are you new to usenet?
It's controlled by means of a well-configured killfile/filter.
Dave Frightens Me
wrote:
>Lynn Guini wrote:
Oh, none of "us", is it?
Care to share the posters' names for whom you represent?
Dave Patterson
> Are you new to usenet?
> It's controlled by means of a well-configured killfile/filter.
> --
New? No.
> Oh, none of "us", is it?
> Care to share the posters' names for whom you represent?
Let's just see if others add their comments about this.
Here's one from a poster who adapted my earlier comment
to reflect a view from rec.travel.europe
Martin wrote:
> Can you remove rec.travel.europe, from all this
> petty nonsense about who has been where and what
> is a country and what is not?
Sure, subjects such as this can go on forever.
But need not.
Lynn Guini
> And at some point, you must come to understand that none of us
> really cares what you "contend".
> Give it up, please.
Obviously you do, or else you would not have bothered to read that post,
far down an already well-worn thread. Much less replied to it. Clearly
you care, but disagree, and have nothing with which to back up your
opinion, so you want to suppress mine.
Marc Lurie
Belgium
Benin
Burkina-Faso
Burundi
Cameroon
Canada
Central African Republic
Chad
Comoros
Democratic Republic of Congo
Djibouti
France
Gabon
Guinea
Haiti
Ivory Coast
Luxembourg
Madagascar
Mali
Monaco
Niger
Republic of Congo
Rwanda
Senegal
Seychelles
Switzerland
Togo
Vanuatu
Cambodia
Cape Verde
Dominica
Guinea-Bissau
Laos
Lebanon
Morocco
Mauritania
Mauritius
Saint-Lucia
Sao-Tomé et Principe
Tunisia
Vietnam
On Tue, 23 May 2006 11:10:17 -0400, Lynn Guini <per...@pasta.com>
wrote:
>Des Small wrote:
LekkerBelgischBier
Cape Verde
Guinea-Bissau
Sao-Tomé et Principe
Sarah Banick
"Marc Lurie" <marcR...@NOSPAM.laradio.co.za> wrote in message
news:ga4872hf4d3n9vsbm...@4ax.com...
Lynn Guini
Belgium, Canada, France, Luxembourg, Monaco, Switzerland, Morocco and
maybe Tunisia. Drop most of Canada; you will find zero use for French
outside of Quebec and border areas. And most of Switzerland.
Luxembourg? I thought it was more German. All in all, a very short
list for the great majority of travellers. Really, people, read his
list. How many of these places are you ever likely to visit? If you do
indeed plan to go to a bunch of basket-case African countries, then by
all means brush up on your French. Otherwise, there are better choices.
By the way, in addition to your other errors, Domenica is English, and
the south-east Asian countries of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia have for
some time been teaching English, rather than French. You'll have to
find older people to talk to.
Dave Patterson
> If you do indeed plan to go to a bunch of basket-case African countries,
> then by
> all means brush up on your French. Otherwise, there are better choices.
A mean-spirited comment that is remarkably insulting to all the
wonderful people who live in these "basket-case African countries"
> > Benin
> > Burkina-Faso
> > Burundi
> > Cameroon
> > Central African Republic
> > Chad
> > Democratic Republic of Congo
> > Djibouti
> > Gabon
> > Guinea
> > Ivory Coast
> > Mali
> > Niger
> > Republic of Congo
> > Rwanda
> > Senegal
> > Togo
> > Guinea-Bissau
> > Morocco
> > Mauritania
> > Mauritius
> > Tunisia
Dave Frightens Me
wrote:
>Lynn Guini wrote:
>
>> If you do indeed plan to go to a bunch of basket-case African countries,
>> then by
>> all means brush up on your French. Otherwise, there are better choices.
>
>A mean-spirited comment that is remarkably insulting to all the
>wonderful people who live in these "basket-case African countries"
It is kinda true though. Most African countries are beyond hope.
Jordi
Even if they speak English, as it is.
J.
LekkerBelgischBier
but so cheap !
Lynn Guini
>
> Lynn Guini wrote:
>
> > If you do indeed plan to go to a bunch of basket-case African countries,
> > then by
> > all means brush up on your French. Otherwise, there are better choices.
>
> A mean-spirited comment that is remarkably insulting to all the
> wonderful people who live in these "basket-case African countries"
No mean spirit intended. It's very common to hear the term
"basket-case" used in reference to these countries, mostly because it's
accurate. Just type "basket-case africa" into Google and you'll get
about 264,000 hits. Sadly, it's an accurate description, and perhaps
the main reason that so few people want to visit - which is the point
here. Take your head out of the sand.
Dave Patterson
> It's very common to hear the term
> "basket-case" used in reference to these countries, mostly because it's
> accurate. Just type "basket-case africa" into Google and you'll get
> about 264,000 hits. Sadly, it's an accurate description, and perhaps
> the main reason that so few people want to visit - which is the point
> here. Take your head out of the sand.
Type "arrogant" into Google and you get 28,100,000 hits.
Lynn Guini
> Type "arrogant" into Google and you get 28,100,000 hits.
How many are left after subtracting those with your name in them?
Dave Frightens Me
wrote:
>Lynn Guini wrote:
As a percentage, how much of Africa would you say is "safe" to visit?
Greg Guarino
wrote:
>French is all but useless for travel. Apart from France and parts of
>Quebec, you'll rarely find any need for it. Such has been my experience
>in the past 35 years, visiting about 100 countries. Spanish is far more
>useful, and German anywhere in Europe east of France.
This is non-sequitur. It might be appropriate had the OP written:
"Learn French and you can travel 'round the world!!!!" But he didn't.
He asked a question, "need French for travel?", leaving it up to the
reader to decide.
The reader who has Shanghai or Buenos Aires in his plans will probably
look elsewhere. I'm going to Quebec this summer. I may try out that
link to brush up a bit.
With the possible exception of English, every language is useless for
travel over most of the planet, so I see little utility in your post
other than as fodder for an argument. Those same "useless" languages
may be nearly indispensable in certain localities, especially outside
heavily touristed areas.
My list of countries is quite paltry, about a dozen. I can get by in
French and Italian and have cobbled together enough Spanish to make
myself understood. But when I was in German-speaking countries I spent
some time with a phrase book beforehand an took notes of useful words
I encountered as I went along. That turned out to be very "useful"
indeed, even if only in a few countries.
Greg Guarino
Frank F. Matthews
LekkerBelgischBier wrote:
Not really. Many hellholes are among the most expensive places to
visit. Even without funding the necessary personal security.
Marc Lurie
that "Arrogant racist european" generated 516,000 hits on Google but
that would simply add to the mudslinging.
Ms. Guini is welcome to her opinion, and it is up to people like you
or me to either convince her that she is wrong, or to simply ignore
her. I don't see any merit in trying to change her mind, so I'll take
the "ignore" option.
Cheers,
Marc
On Wed, 24 May 2006 09:45:11 -0700, Dave Patterson <da...@fastq.com>
wrote:
>Lynn Guini wrote:
LekkerBelgischBier
which ones have you visited ?
Jordi
I'd say most.
I never perceived any danger in any of Benin, Burkina, Togo, Ghana,
Niger and Senegal.
I've also been told Nigeria is safe, except for Lagos, Ibadan and the
Niger Delta, but my personal experience is limited to just Lagos.
Definite no-go areas are few and widely known.
J.
Dave Smith
> Dave, rather drop it. I was going to get into the fray by mentioning
> that "Arrogant racist european" generated 516,000 hits on Google but
> that would simply add to the mudslinging.
>
> Ms. Guini is welcome to her opinion, and it is up to people like you
> or me to either convince her that she is wrong, or to simply ignore
> her. I don't see any merit in trying to change her mind, so I'll take
> the "ignore" option.
I suppose that it is easier to ignore it an pretend that the problem does not
exist than to try to refute it with facts. Lynn is right. Africa is full of
failed nations. Despite having a lot or arable land and lots of resources,
most African countries are among the poorest in the world. They are plagued
with corrupt politicians and dictators, corrupt police, tribal rivalries,
war lord societies and a host of social issues that keep them down. The west
has pumped billions and billions of dollars into aid programs and it just
disappears, much of it ending up in European luxury residences. On that list
of African countries where French is spoken are among the most unsafe and
undesirable tourist destinations imaginable.
You are well advised to ignore Lynn's comments if they upset you because you
would have a damned difficult time disproving them.
Keith W
"Dave Patterson" <da...@fastq.com> wrote in message
news:4474783C...@fastq.com...
> Lynn Guini wrote:
>
>> If you do indeed plan to go to a bunch of basket-case African countries,
>> then by
>> all means brush up on your French. Otherwise, there are better choices.
>
> A mean-spirited comment that is remarkably insulting to all the
> wonderful people who live in these "basket-case African countries"
I would have thought the insult was aimed at those who ran them !
After all the governments of the Central African Republic, Niger, and
Burkina-Faso are hardly watchwords for enlightened and efficient
administration.
There ARE some places on the list worth visiting which are relatively
well run, Gabon comes to mind but most of those African countries
have gone to hell in a hand basket.
Dave Patterson
> Ms. Guini is welcome to her opinion, and it is up to people like you
> or me to either convince her that she is wrong, or to simply ignore
> her. I don't see any merit in trying to change her mind, so I'll take
> the "ignore" option.
I should have.
It was just one of those days when her opinion didn't
strike me as all that "welcome".
And it leads to me to believe that there should perhaps
be a new newsgroup called rec.bash.africa.
That would give a lot of the posters a better forum
for their views, and those of us who actually live
there and go there, can continue to just rec.TRAVEL.africa
Lynn Guini
>
> This is non-sequitur. It might be appropriate had the OP written:
> "Learn French and you can travel 'round the world!!!!" But he didn't.
> He asked a question, "need French for travel?", leaving it up to the
> reader to decide.
It's not a non-sequitur, but you are correct that it was not appropriate
- on a technicality (and we all know how everyone here strives to be
strictly appropriate). Reading the subject line exactly as written and
no more, there was no need for comment. However, I sensed a deeper
implication and that's what I commented on. Perhaps in the future, such
solicitations could be accompanied by a list (more accurate than the one
someone else gave) of places where French would indeed enrich the travel
experience. Then the reader would be in a better position to decide.
Many novices actually believe what they read here.
What I didn't notice for some time was that this was cross-posted to
rec.travel.africa. In that forum it is indeed inappropriate, and I
would have removed it immediately had I noticed. Travel to Africa is
relatively minor, but those who choose to are far more likely to find a
use for French. Only three of the 11 African countries I've spent two
weeks or more in used French, but in those I did find it useful.
It was never my intent in the first place, but since this blew up, it
reminded me of how agitated, snippy and indignant the French and
francophiles get when reminded of how much their language has faded in
world significance. Rather than accepting reality with grace, they take
personal shots at people who point out the obvious.
Alan
Marc Lurie
wrote:
SNIP
>What I didn't notice for some time was that this was cross-posted to
>rec.travel.africa. In that forum it is indeed inappropriate, and I
>would have removed it immediately had I noticed. Travel to Africa is
>relatively minor, but those who choose to are far more likely to find a
>use for French. Only three of the 11 African countries I've spent two
>weeks or more in used French, but in those I did find it useful.
>
>It was never my intent in the first place, but since this blew up, it
>reminded me of how agitated, snippy and indignant the French and
>francophiles get when reminded of how much their language has faded in
>world significance. Rather than accepting reality with grace, they take
>personal shots at people who point out the obvious.
Lynn,
I only subscribe to one NG, and that's rec.travel.africa, as I have
very little interest in other travel forums due to the fact that I
mostly travel in Africa (for work and pleasure), and because other
places I travel to (USA, UK, Europe etc.) are pretty static,
unchangeing places and books that are a year or two out of date are
still valid sources of information.
When I saw your post on rec.travel.africa I was pretty pi**ed at your
comments because, as you say, they are inappropriate in this forum. My
agitation, indignation, and snippines comes not from my being a
francophile (which I most certainly am not), but from my deep love of
this continent in spite of its manifold difficulties. You mentioned
that travel is like a book, well, using that analogy, Africa just
happens to be a genre that you don't particularly enjoy. People like
Dave Patterson and I do enjoy the genre, so please let us read our
books in peace :-)
I'll post no more on this thread, because I think that the subject is
exhausted, and there is no merit in pursuing it further, as it is
likely to become hysterical and heated which is certainly not
desireable.
Regards,
Marc - Johannesburg
Greg Guarino
wrote:
>Greg Guarino wrote:
>>
>> This is non-sequitur. It might be appropriate had the OP written:
>> "Learn French and you can travel 'round the world!!!!" But he didn't.
>> He asked a question, "need French for travel?", leaving it up to the
>> reader to decide.
>
>It's not a non-sequitur,
Sure it is. Your comment had nothing to do with the original post,
which made none of the claims which you sought to counter. The very
fact that you started a new thread and snipped what went before
suggests that you know it too.
>but you are correct that it was not appropriate
>- on a technicality (and we all know how everyone here strives to be
>strictly appropriate). Reading the subject line exactly as written and
>no more, there was no need for comment. However, I sensed a deeper
>implication and that's what I commented on.
Sensed? Hmmm. "Read into" is more accurate.
>Perhaps in the future, such
>solicitations could be accompanied by a list (more accurate than the one
>someone else gave) of places where French would indeed enrich the travel
>experience. Then the reader would be in a better position to decide.
Now you're backpedaling, and poorly at that. I think that anyone
independent enough and savvy enough to want to learn some of the local
language when he travels is capable of looking up what language that
is.
>What I didn't notice for some time was that this was cross-posted to
>rec.travel.africa. In that forum it is indeed inappropriate, and I
>would have removed it immediately had I noticed. Travel to Africa is
>relatively minor, but those who choose to are far more likely to find a
>use for French. Only three of the 11 African countries I've spent two
>weeks or more in used French, but in those I did find it useful.
>
>It was never my intent in the first place, but since this blew up, it
>reminded me of how agitated, snippy and indignant the French and
>francophiles get when reminded of how much their language has faded in
>world significance. Rather than accepting reality with grace, they take
>personal shots at people who point out the obvious.
Ah. There it is. At the end, of course, where maybe we'll miss it?
It's a pity that someone as well traveled as you still uses the word
"they" so easily. If all you're going to see is your own
preconceptions it's a lot cheaper to stay home.