ATM 4 or 6 digit pins
Terence Soh
true coz mine with a 6 digit pin and I don't want to end in Europe
without cash.
Terence
TheTravelzine.com
You will need to change your pin to a four digit NUMERICAL pin before
leaving for Europe.
T r a v e l o g u e s
Greece Italy Portugal Slovenia Switzerland
TheTravelzine.com
a non-commercial source of
Ideas for Independent Travelers
http://www.thetravelzine.com
dmk
dmk
TheTravelzine.com wrote in message ...
Paulo Rizzi
>
> I've ead somewhere that ATMs in Europe only accept 4 digit pin. Is
> this true coz mine with a 6 digit pin and I don't want to end in
> Europe without cash.
The ATMs in Europe work all with 4-digit pins. One of my cards has
a 10-digit pin. It works in Europe by typing the first 4 gigits. You
may take your card, find an ATM of another bank back home and try it
out (obviously, must be connected to the same network (normally Plus
or Cirrus). If it works back home, it'll work in Europe. Otherwise,
ask your bank for a 4-digit pin card.
Paulo
Norman Lamont
Mark S. Brader
I have used my ATM card (Royal Bank of Canada, Plus system) with 6-digit
PIN with no trouble in the UK and several countries of continental Europe.
(Sorry, I don't remember offhand which countries.)
The warnings to use a 4-digit PIN presumably have some basis in fact, but
if so, it must pertain only to some countries or only to some banks' ATMs.
If I was planning to travel with the card as my sole source of money,
then I would certainly change to a shorter PIN. But I wouldn't travel
that way in the first place -- too much chance of trouble in the event of
a technical malfunction.
--
Mark Brader "Actually, $150, to an educational institution,
Toronto turns out to be about the same as a lower amount."
msbr...@interlog.com -- Mark Horton
This article is in the public domain.
Eir...@my-dejanews.com
upon supposition and not fact. My ATM card belongs to the PLUS network and to
date I have not encountered a problem with my 5 digit PIN though admitedly my
use could not be described as comprehensive but I have used it in Ireland, the
UK and on the Continent. I clearly do not know and have no facts to support my
theory but perhaps some banks have uniform 4 digit PINs and this is what lead
people to believe this. If anyone who knows for sure can shed some light on
this it would be great. I will try and find the PLUS web site and see if I can
find anything.
Joe
In article <768udc$8...@shell1.interlog.com>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Eir...@my-dejanews.com
California Federal Bank and they called Visa who runs the PLUS network. The
response was that owing to different banks using different length PINS their
system will work with PINS longer than 4 digits. How this works is that you
type in your PIN per normal but the system only reads the first 4 digits that
you input. So yes 5 and 6 digit PINS will work. Also Visa contested the
generalizations that 4 digits is a standard anywhere and knew firsthand of
banks in different geographies that used different PIN lengths. So hopefully
you should not need to worry. I do not have a Cirrus network card so I can't
speak to their policies.
Regards,
David Hatunen
> I agree with this posting. I believe a lot of the information
>here is based upon supposition and not fact. My ATM card belongs
>to the PLUS network and to date I have not encountered a problem
>with my 5 digit PIN though admitedly my use could not be described
>as comprehensive but I have used it in Ireland, the UK and on the
>Continent. I clearly do not know and have no facts to support my
>theory but perhaps some banks have uniform 4 digit PINs and this
>is what lead people to believe this. If anyone who knows for sure
>can shed some light on this it would be great. I will try and find
>the PLUS web site and see if I can find anything.
The big thing is that it's almost trivial to get your PIN changed
to 4-digits and do you really want to take the chance of standing
there at an ATM in a place 6,000 miles from home at 22:00 and
hungry and the ATM won't recognize you?
--
********** DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@sonic.net) ***********
* Daly City California: *
* where San Francisco meets The Peninsula *
******* and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea *******
David Hatunen
> OK... I just got off the phone with the Electronic Banking
>Department at California Federal Bank and they called Visa who
>runs the PLUS network. The response was that owing to different
>banks using different length PINS their system will work with PINS
>longer than 4 digits. How this works is that you type in your PIN
>per normal but the system only reads the first 4 digits that you
>input. So yes 5 and 6 digit PINS will work. Also Visa contested
>the generalizations that 4 digits is a standard anywhere and knew
>firsthand of banks in different geographies that used different
>PIN lengths. So hopefully you should not need to worry. I do not
>have a Cirrus network card so I can't speak to their policies.
Yeah, but what does the bank in London that owns the ATM accept in
the way of PINs? You're being filtered through several different
systems, and it has to work in all of them.
Mark S. Brader
> to 4-digits
No, the big thing is that 4 digits is way too short. 6 digits is also too
short (I want 12), but that's all they'll let me have. Besides, changing
PINs creates another point of failure -- I *have* had it happen, though not
recently, that I've done it and the change didn't take effect.
> and do you really want to take the chance of standing
> there at an ATM in a place 6,000 miles from home at 22:00 and
> hungry and the ATM won't recognize you?
As I said before, if I expected to use ATM withdrawals as more than a
*convenient alternate* source of funds, I might act differently.
--
Mark Brader \"Europe contains a great many cathedrals, which were
Toronto \caused by the Middle Ages, which means they are very old,
msbr...@interlog.com\so you have to take color slide photographs of them."
\ -- Dave Barry
Original text in this article is in the public domain.
Paulo Rizzi
>
> In article <76dl3v$uig$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <Eir...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> > OK... I just got off the phone with the Electronic Banking
> >Department at California Federal Bank and they called Visa who
> >runs the PLUS network. The response was that owing to different
> >banks using different length PINS their system will work with PINS
> >longer than 4 digits. How this works is that you type in your PIN
> >per normal but the system only reads the first 4 digits that you
> >input. So yes 5 and 6 digit PINS will work. Also Visa contested
> >the generalizations that 4 digits is a standard anywhere and knew
> >firsthand of banks in different geographies that used different
> >PIN lengths. So hopefully you should not need to worry. I do not
> >have a Cirrus network card so I can't speak to their policies.
>
> Yeah, but what does the bank in London that owns the ATM accept in
> the way of PINs? You're being filtered through several different
> systems, and it has to work in all of them.
Apparently, Dave, the focus of the problem has nothing to do with,
let's call it, the 4-digit pin ATM abroad. Since there are multi-digit
pin cards that apparently don't work on one of these ATMs, and there
are other multi-digit pin cards that work perfectly, the problem must
be on how the pin issue is dealt with the bank that issues the card.
Since, between my wife and myself, we have four 4-digit pin cards, we
never worried about our two 10-digit pin cards. But we realized that
they work perfectly everywhere we tried them (US, GB, France, Belgium,
Germany, Austria, Italy, Greece and Turkey). This only means that our
bank, here in Brazil, has a pin coding system that is compatible with
the system used by the 4-digit pin ATMs arouns the world. In other
words, if the check is done remotely, the remote servers either are
only informed on the first 4-digits or they check the 4-digit pin sent
by the ATM against the first 4-digits of our pins. BTW, these are Plus
network cards.
Paulo
Eir...@my-dejanews.com
I think Mark (?) said it is not a wise move to leave yourself dependent on
the ATM as your only resource. I would agree and add that my experiences have
been positive and I have never been denied service from an ATM that belongs to
my network save for one occassion in Beijing where the network was down. I
always have a reserve of cash and travelers checks but greatly enjoy the
benefit of using the card worldwide.
During my investigation yesterday my bank suggested I sign up for a Visa
check card. This is another tool I will put to good use. It works just like a
Visa but debits my checking account instead of building up a credit balance.
This will keep me on the straight and narrow with my budgeting and much
better than cashing travelers checks to get local currency in order pay the
restaurant bill. When I get home I won't have the dread of the forthcoming
Visa bill for my expenses.
Regards,
Joe
In article <76dqk7$qvp$1...@ultra.sonic.net>,
hat...@bolt.sonic.net (David Hatunen) wrote:
> In article <76diur$sk8$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <Eir...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> > I agree with this posting. I believe a lot of the information
> >here is based upon supposition and not fact. My ATM card belongs
> >to the PLUS network and to date I have not encountered a problem
> >with my 5 digit PIN though admitedly my use could not be described
> >as comprehensive but I have used it in Ireland, the UK and on the
> >Continent. I clearly do not know and have no facts to support my
> >theory but perhaps some banks have uniform 4 digit PINs and this
> >is what lead people to believe this. If anyone who knows for sure
> >can shed some light on this it would be great. I will try and find
> >the PLUS web site and see if I can find anything.
>
> The big thing is that it's almost trivial to get your PIN changed
> to 4-digits and do you really want to take the chance of standing
> there at an ATM in a place 6,000 miles from home at 22:00 and
> hungry and the ATM won't recognize you?
>
> --
> ********** DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@sonic.net) ***********
> * Daly City California: *
> * where San Francisco meets The Peninsula *
> ******* and the San Andreas Fault meets the Sea *******
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
David Hatunen
>During my investigation yesterday my bank suggested I sign up for
>a Visa check card. This is another tool I will put to good use. It
>works just like a Visa but debits my checking account instead of
>building up a credit balance. This will keep me on the straight
>and narrow with my budgeting and much better than cashing
>travelers checks to get local currency in order pay the restaurant
>bill. When I get home I won't have the dread of the forthcoming
>Visa bill for my expenses.
Examine this very carefully. Should your credit card be stolen you
are shielded by law from all charges the thief makes, a fact that
came in very handy when my wallet was stolen in Paris. This is not
true for ATM cards, but you are protected by the need for the user
to use a PIN. Unfortunately, there are many uses, such as phone
calls, where you would not supply a PIN when using these Visa debit
cards; the whole point is that vendors are not supposed to realize
it isn't a credit card.
Wells Fargo bank here in Califronia has offered me one of these
Visa debit cards, and assures me in the pormotional material that
they will provide me the same protection that the law gives credit
card users. Since it is not the law, but Wells, offering me this
protection, I am very reluctant to accept the card; as most
Californians will tell you, we wouldn't trust Wells Fargo as far as
the next branch office they close.
Eir...@my-dejanews.com
held liable for is $50 with a credit card, using CalFed again (whom I got the
original Visa check card info from) they stipulate the same thing for the
Visa check card. There is one caveat and they were very upfront about it. If
someone stole the card your maximum liability would be $50 however if they
person stealing the card exhausted your funds with purchases it could take up
to 20 days to replace your funds. Cash withdrawals have the same daily limits
as do a standard ATM card. So in that respect I could see where it would be
prudent to be careful with the card and set a card maximum limit. With all of
this in writing I am unclear, if the policy is in writing with Wells Fargo as
well, what your concern would be. Despite your displeasure with their service
it's hard to believe they could escape a legally binding contract.
Joe
In article <76kb2g$nju$1...@ultra.sonic.net>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Warren Usui
David Hatunen wrote:
> Since it is not the law, but Wells, offering me this
> protection, I am very reluctant to accept the card; as most
> Californians will tell you, we wouldn't trust Wells Fargo as far as
> the next branch office they close.
I am not a big fan of Wells Fargo either, but my Wells Fargo card
has a "Wild West" picture of a stagecoach on it. People in Italy
loved the look of the card. I recommend getting a Wells Fargo
credit card just to wow the folks there. I'm wearing a 10 gallon
hat the next time, too.
benh...@aapi.co.uk
my note. She was saving money: of course there are a dozen walks a
day with guides, at about five pounds, lasting two hours, or so.
The City is old, has beautiful (and ugly) parts, and is just over the
river from you. So I think that at your arrival airport, or in the
bookstall in a station, you would not waste money if you were to buy
the AZ Visitors' London atlas and guide at three pounds, a very small
book (no weight), spiral bound, that gives clear and detailed maps oif
the City and West End. Then you could try a few walks, off the bus
routes.
One idea is the Monument, Fish Street Hill, Eastcheap, Philpot Lane,
Lime Street (with a visit to Leadenhall Market, where there are good
pubs for lunch, and to the new Lloyds Building), St Mary Axe (with a
visit to St Helen's Church Bishopsgate, a church not burnt down in the
Fire), into Liverpool Street station to admire the roof, a drink in
Dirty Dicks, up to Spital Steet, into Old Spitalfields Market, ,
across to Christ Church Spitalfields, and so along Hanbury Street to
Brick Lane.
Another walk is this. London Bridge, Cannon Street, the Temple of
Mithras, the tourist information kiosk south oif St Paul's, Carter
Lane (cheap lunches and suppers at the Youth Hostel), drop into one or
two of the yards south of Carter Lane, back to Carter Lane,
Apothecaries' Hall, Blackfriars Lane, the pub called The Black Friar
(to see its decor), up to Blackfriars Station to see the destination
list from a century ago, under the road to New Bridge Street, left
just before Ludgate Circus to St Bride's Lane and St Bride's Church,
back to Tudor Street, into the Inner Temple, see the church of the
Knights Templars, continue westwards, ask any passing lawyer the way
to the Devereaux Pub (good lunches upstairs), up to the Strand, visit
the Royal Air Force church of St Clement Danes and ask to see the
monument to Polish airmen, along the Strand westwards, at Surrey
Street drop fifty yards and look for the gate towards the Roman Bath,
see that, back to the Strand, see the Courtauld Gallery (entry is free
on Mondays from ten to two), cross Lancaster Place, see the Chapel of
the Savoy, walk boldly into the entrance of the Savoy Hotel, find your
way to the other entrance on the riverside, leave that way, on Savoy
Place turn westwards, enter Embankment Gardens when you can, at the
western end of those ask for Gordon's wine bar on Villiers Street,
have a glass of something, go through the tube station to see the view
of the South Bank theatres and galleries, walk up crowded Villiers
Street, cross the Strand, and see the new monument to Oscar Wilde.
See St Martin in the Fields church (but don't hear evening music there
as it's poor stuff, whereas their lunch time recitals are ok), find
the big Post Office, goto the little entrance opposite the National
Portrait Gallery, and buy nicer stamps than they sell in normal post
offices.
Now a third. Over the bridge, up King William Street, see the free
museum of the Bank of England, into Gresham Street, see the Guildhsall
and St Lawrence Jewry, see St Anne and St Agnes (if it's open).. You
are very near the Museum of London, if you want that, but it takes
half a day to see properly. You're also five minutes from the
Barbican, with free jazz and recitals about six some days, and the
Guildhall Schoool of Music and Drama, with free music concerts and
recitals: you can get detail by phone. Now through Little Britain to
the Hospital of St Bartholomew, where the Great Hall is interesting,
and the church of St Barthomolew the Less. After which you go north
to the twelfth century church of St Barthomolew the Great, then see
the meat market at Smithfield, and visit the museum of the Order of St
John of Jerusalem in St John's Gate. So fifty yards north to
Clerkenwell Road (a dull stretch), along to Hatton Gardens, and see
the jewelry quarter. Back westward along boring Clerkenwell Road and
Theobald's Road, and at the police station turn north up Lambs Conduit
Street. Nothing special, but plum full of cheap places to eat (except
on Sundays). You can look at Coram's Fields, the garden and small zoo
at the north end of Lamb's Conduit Steet, but may go in only if
accompanied by a child: these were the rules that Captain Coram
(friend of Handel and friend of children) set down in the eighteenth
century. You're now five minutes from Russell Square, and fifteen
from Blomsbury, but you've walked far enough.
Please write again if I can help further.
Ben Haines
David Hatunen
> The information I received was that under federal law the max you can be
>held liable for is $50 with a credit card, using CalFed again (whom I got the
>original Visa check card info from) they stipulate the same thing for the
>Visa check card.
I think the distinction is important: with the credit card you are
protected by law, with the check card you are protected by the
bank's promise.
>There is one caveat and they were very upfront about it. If
>someone stole the card your maximum liability would be $50 however
>if they person stealing the card exhausted your funds with
>purchases it could take up to 20 days to replace your funds. Cash
>withdrawals have the same daily limits as do a standard ATM card.
Cash withdrawals require a PIN with a check card, if I'm not
mistaken, so that's not the problem. The problem is all the
purchases made that do not require a PIN and are not connected to
the ATM network. The check card can be used just like a credit
card: the vendor won't know it's not a credit card.
>So in that respect I could see where it would be prudent to be
>careful with the card and set a card maximum limit.
If a limit worked they wouldn't have to tell you how your account
could be emptied and you might have to wait *weeks* to replenish
it.
>With all of this in writing I am unclear, if the policy is in
>writing with Wells Fargo as well, what your concern would be.
>Despite your displeasure with their service it's hard to believe
>they could escape a legally binding contract.
Surely you jest. They have much better lawyers than I could ever
hope to hire. They can always find some sort of loophole: you were
careless, maybe. I know I was careless when my pocket got picked
in Paris. Read the fine print VERY carefully, don't jsut listen to
the guy telling you something.
In any case, I'd trust CalFed a lot more than Wells Fargo.
Mark Brader
>>> to 4-digits
>> No, the big thing is that 4 digits is way too short. 6 digits is also too
>> short (I want 12), but that's all they'll let me have.
> Too short for what?
To keep a bad guy from figuring out what it is by watching me type it once.
The short-term memory that that requires is limited to a few digits.
If what I hear about the relative predominance of different types of crimes
in different countries is true, this issue is particularly relevant in
Europe since a pickpocket would need your PIN to use the card whereas
someone committing armed robbery could order you to type it yourself.
Not that either event is something I particularly fear, you understand.
There aren't *that* many criminals out there. But on the other hand,
those that there are are going to be attracted to places where people
are known to be handling money, so it's as well to be cautious.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "Every new technology carries with it an opportunity
msbr...@interlog.com | to invent a new crime" -- Laurence A. Urgenson
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Doug Pearl
> In article <76h636$lov$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <Eir...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
> >During my investigation yesterday my bank suggested I sign up for
> >a Visa check card. This is another tool I will put to good use. It
> >works just like a Visa but debits my checking account instead of
> >building up a credit balance. This will keep me on the straight
> >and narrow with my budgeting and much better than cashing
> >travelers checks to get local currency in order pay the restaurant
> >bill. When I get home I won't have the dread of the forthcoming
> >Visa bill for my expenses.
>
> Examine this very carefully. Should your credit card be stolen you
> are shielded by law from all charges the thief makes, a fact that
> came in very handy when my wallet was stolen in Paris. This is not
> true for ATM cards, but you are protected by the need for the user
> to use a PIN. Unfortunately, there are many uses, such as phone
> calls, where you would not supply a PIN when using these Visa debit
> cards; the whole point is that vendors are not supposed to realize
> it isn't a credit card.
>
> Wells Fargo bank here in Califronia has offered me one of these
> Visa debit cards, and assures me in the pormotional material that
> they will provide me the same protection that the law gives credit
> card users. Since it is not the law, but Wells, offering me this
> protection, I am very reluctant to accept the card; as most
> Californians will tell you, we wouldn't trust Wells Fargo as far as
> the next branch office they close
To me, the convenience of using a debit/check card outweighs the minimal
risk associated with lesser protection in the event of theft.
I would never keep my cards, passport, etc in anything but a money belt,
stuffed inside my pants. This gives me almost 100% protection from loss
or theft, short of someone pointing a gun at me and ordering me to drop my
pants.
-Doug
Campbell,CA
USA