Reasons to Dislike Tara Lipinski
Jun Yan
This is entirely entirely UNFAIR. I continue to be amazed by the personal
attack on her. What's going on??? Michelle Kwan was just the same kind
of technical jumper a couple of years ago. Tara Lipinski is Tara
Lipinski. Does she give a damn to what she REPRESENTS? No, she's just
being herself. What's so wrong??? Why does a skater, esp. a female
skater, has to please everyone with a winning personality?? Is skating
not enough for a true skating fan? Is it HER FAULT that she's young,
small, slim, a great jumper, loves to scream in joy??
Why?
jun
Sk8Maven
I've been giving the whole question much thought, and there are
actually a number of quite valid reasons to dislike Tara
Lipinski. Most of them don't have anything to do with her as a
person (I have no idea what she's "really" like, since all that
anyone ever sees is the media-made package).
-- She represents the quintessence of what a lot of people feel
is wrong with "Ladies'" figure skating: the overemphasis on
jumps, demanding ever younger and smaller and slighter bodies
which can do them more easily; the stinting of formal education
for more training time; the tunnel-vision focus on skating as the
sole purpose of life; the sacrifice of any semblance of a
"normal" family life for the sake of winning competitions. (Tara has the
dubious distinction of having been used as a negative example in *both*
Joan Ryan's "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes" *and* Christine Brennan's
"Inside Edge".)
-- She represents the culmination in figure skating of a trend
that has already burned itself out in gymnastics: the insatiable
media demand for the newest, the youngest, the smallest, the
cutest, the winningest, and the casual discarding of the previous
favorite as soon as another one comes along.
-- She's had the inestimable advantage of a media juggernaut that
got rolling as soon as they noticed her four years ago, and that
has gained increasing momentum with every exposure (whether or
not she deserved it). As a result, she's been overexposed to the
point where a lot of people were already sick and tired of
hearing about her *two* years ago.
-- She has an adult head on a child's body, wears makeup like an
adult but dresses and acts and *skates* like a child, sending
confusing and disturbing mixed messages that tie into nightmare
scenarios like the JonBenet Ramsey case and culturally
unacceptable images such as Nabokov's "Lolita".
-- She's had an outrageously long run of *incredibly* good luck,
much more so even than Oksana Baiul in 1993-94, and without "earning"
it by previous misfortunes. *Everything* has broken her way from
the get-go, from being the only child of doting parents wealthy
enough to get her properly started, to being in the right place
at the right time *every* time, to being "on" whenever her
strongest competitors were "off", to starting puberty so
*excessively* late that she's gotten all her serious winning done
*first* and it no longer matters when or how much she blossoms.
People who are *that* lucky are a major source of irritation to
those of us who have to make do with ordinary luck (or none at
all, or consistent *bad* luck).
-- If some of us are honest with ourselves, we will admit that we
wish we had been *that* focused on something at that age, and had
had *that* kind of a support network; and we feel like failures
because we weren't and didn't. (For some reason Michelle Kwan
doesn't trigger the same kind of envy, perhaps because we've seen
her having a "normal" family life in addition to all her
competitive success.)
Just my .02 on the Tara Phenomenon....
Maven
Summusdeus
> the tunnel-vision focus on skating as the
>sole purpose of life;
She has said that skating is not her sole purpose in life and that she would
like to be a lawyer some day.
>the sacrifice of any semblance of a
>"normal" family life for the sake of winning competitions
In order to accomplish anything, sacrifices have to be made. Her family life
may not be normal to you, but it seems okay for her.
>
>-- She has an adult head on a child's body, wears makeup like an
>adult but dresses and acts and *skates* like a child,
That's not fair to criticize her physical appearance. She can't change how her
body is sjaped. She may dress and act like a child but guess what -- she is a
child. Go figure.
>sending
>confusing and disturbing mixed messages that tie into nightmare
>scenarios like the JonBenet Ramsey case
Tara ... Jon Benet Ramsey? I don't see the connection.
>-- She's had an outrageously long run of *incredibly* good luck,
>*Everything* has broken her way from
>the get-go, from being the only child of doting parents wealthy
>enough to get her properly started, to being in the right place
>at the right time *every* time, to being "on" whenever her
>strongest competitors were "off", to starting puberty so
>*excessively* late that she's gotten all her serious winning done
>*first* and it no longer matters when or how much she blossoms.
>People who are *that* lucky are a major source of irritation to
>those of us who have to make do with ordinary luck (or none at
>all, or consistent *bad* luck).
Just because she's been more fortunate than you is no reason to put her down.
Why should someone have to suffer in order to succeed or appreciate winning?
Tara has had to sacrifice a lot to get to where she is today. She has put in
an incredible ammount of work and dedication into skating which I doubt you
have matched. She may have benifited from some people's misfortunate "off
days" but if she hadn't stepped up to the challenge then someone else certainly
would have. It seems to me that you are just jealous of what she has achieved
in such a short time. It is sad that you are so bitter.
>If some of us are honest with ourselves, we will admit that we
>wish we had been *that* focused on something at that age, and had
>had *that* kind of a support network; and we feel like failures
>because we weren't and didn't.
Ultimately it doesn;'t matter what kind of support or networking you have. If
you're focused and work your ass off, you can accomplish almost anything.
Rui Liu
Interesting, but for me, the reason I I don't particularly care for
Tara is that she's technically flawed in so many
ways (horrible flutz, fake axel, tiny jumps and cheated
combos etc), and I am sure she and her coach know it and
worked hard to correct them. Yet she constantly
proclaim she skated great and wondeful. Some may say
she's confident, to me it's dishonesty, kind of reminding me
of those incompetent people at workplace who talk the talk
all the time (you know the type). There is a world of
difference in stating "I did my best" and "I skated wonderful".
-TC (using wife's account).
Michalle S Gould
I find it interesting that people keep saying Tara has had 'good luck',
etc... I've heard this before. From what I've heard, she placed second to
Syndne Vogel at Junior nationals despite a program that could have been
put first, came in fourth and fifth at Junior Worlds, had a disastrous
horrible short at Edmonton Worlds and yet had the fortitude and character
to come through with a perfect extroardinary performance with the ONLY
triple/triple done in competition that year, as I recall, unless Michelle
did her triple toe/triple toe. Actually, I think Michelle did. So the
hardest triple.triple and the only one done by anyone but the winner. She
has had to fight against a clear reluctance to put her on the podium
because of her size, which she can't control, she had poor longs at
competitions she COULD have won in the Champions Series in '97, and two
judges put Michelle ahead of her at 1997 Nationals despite her flawless
performance and Michelle's two falls, and several stumbles. Then, this
year, despite being the National and World champion, she has had to fight
against the clear derision of the skating press, the clear preference for
Michelle by the press and the U.S. skating establishment, vicious names,
vicious insults about her costumes, her own mother's occasional ability to
irritate the press, and incredibly low marks at Lalique for what was not
THAT poor of a performance. I remember writing an e-mail to someone off
the skatefans list and driving myself practically to tears because I was
so upset about the level of nastiness directed at her by the written press
(and I was EXTREMELY pleased to hear Scott Hamilton criticize this on TNT
on Friday) - imagine how SHE must have felt. And I find it hard to believe
she didn't know. This is the girl a journalist for a respected newspaper
called a robotic shrimp, a circus freak, and various other nasty names
because of her hideous sin of skating clean at Worlds and winning. I think
Tara has had to fight against a massive amount of adversity - clearly
having a great deal of self confidence has helped and thank god. Without
it, she might be as bitter as Surya B. obviously is, or as inconsistent as
Nicole Bobek.
How anyone can think she's been lucky is beyond me. She has made her own
luck and my congratulations to her. Honestly, I envy her will and
determination - I think most anyone would be happy to have about 1/10th of
it.
Michalle
Kaiju
Sk8Maven wrote:
>
> I've been giving the whole question much thought, and there are
> actually a number of quite valid reasons to dislike Tara
> Lipinski. Most of them don't have anything to do with her as a
> person (I have no idea what she's "really" like, since all that
> anyone ever sees is the media-made package).
<snippetity...>
> Just my .02 on the Tara Phenomenon....
>
> Maven
BOY are you one brave dude.
I stand in awe at your courage. And at the highly effective flame- retardant
wardrobe you must possess.
Kaiju
Sum
So it's okay for Tara to scream in joy. But when Michelle cries due to
relief, it is because, according to some Tara's fans, she is a sore
loser, has a poor sportsmanship. Is it some kind of double standard
here?
Sum
Che
What a lovely thread title. Celebrating the joys of negative emotion.
Careful, it'll give you cancer!
Che
Tara has a will of iron. People hate that in Tinkerbell.
Che
Tara is far from the first to convulse her private life to pursue
skating championships. Peggy Fleming moved to Colorado to be near
Carlo Fassi. In fact, the very minute I acquired an interest in
amateur skating, I was reading about "the huge sacrifices involved".
Old, old story. Can't hang this on Tara Lipinski. Tho I expect just
about anything from the Tara-phobes.
Che
On Sun, 22 Feb 1998 00:53:22 -0800, Sum <sar...@home.com> wrote:
>So it's okay for Tara to scream in joy. But when Michelle cries due to
>relief, it is because, according to some Tara's fans, she is a sore
>loser, has a poor sportsmanship. Is it some kind of double standard
>here?
>
>Sum
Hey, name some names. Most of us Tara fans knew quite well that
Michelle was reacting to strain and very happy to have held up under
pressure without falling.
I think Tara-phobes like to imagine that someone else is responsible
for their behavior.
Rose Lentz
I couldn't agree more with the content of this message. But I take issue
with the message title. These are not reasons to dislike Tara; they are
reasons to dislike what we adults are doing to (expecting of) our children.
Sk8Maven wrote in message <34EFC6...@monumental.com>...
>I've been giving the whole question much thought, and there are
>actually a number of quite valid reasons to dislike Tara
>Lipinski. Most of them don't have anything to do with her as a
>person (I have no idea what she's "really" like, since all that
>anyone ever sees is the media-made package).
>
>-- She represents the quintessence of what a lot of people feel
>is wrong with "Ladies'" figure skating: the overemphasis on
>jumps, demanding ever younger and smaller and slighter bodies
>which can do them more easily; the stinting of formal education
>for more training time; the tunnel-vision focus on skating as the
>sole purpose of life; the sacrifice of any semblance of a
>"normal" family life for the sake of winning competitions. (Tara has the
>dubious distinction of having been used as a negative example in *both*
>Joan Ryan's "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes" *and* Christine Brennan's
>"Inside Edge".)
>
>-- She represents the culmination in figure skating of a trend
>that has already burned itself out in gymnastics: the insatiable
>media demand for the newest, the youngest, the smallest, the
>cutest, the winningest, and the casual discarding of the previous
>favorite as soon as another one comes along.
>
>-- She's had the inestimable advantage of a media juggernaut that
>got rolling as soon as they noticed her four years ago, and that
>has gained increasing momentum with every exposure (whether or
>not she deserved it). As a result, she's been overexposed to the
>point where a lot of people were already sick and tired of
>hearing about her *two* years ago.
>
>-- She has an adult head on a child's body, wears makeup like an
>adult but dresses and acts and *skates* like a child, sending
>confusing and disturbing mixed messages that tie into nightmare
>scenarios like the JonBenet Ramsey case and culturally
>unacceptable images such as Nabokov's "Lolita".
>
>-- She's had an outrageously long run of *incredibly* good luck,
>much more so even than Oksana Baiul in 1993-94, and without "earning"
>it by previous misfortunes. *Everything* has broken her way from
>the get-go, from being the only child of doting parents wealthy
>enough to get her properly started, to being in the right place
>at the right time *every* time, to being "on" whenever her
>strongest competitors were "off", to starting puberty so
>*excessively* late that she's gotten all her serious winning done
>*first* and it no longer matters when or how much she blossoms.
>People who are *that* lucky are a major source of irritation to
>those of us who have to make do with ordinary luck (or none at
>all, or consistent *bad* luck).
>
>-- If some of us are honest with ourselves, we will admit that we
>wish we had been *that* focused on something at that age, and had
>had *that* kind of a support network; and we feel like failures
>because we weren't and didn't. (For some reason Michelle Kwan
>doesn't trigger the same kind of envy, perhaps because we've seen
>her having a "normal" family life in addition to all her
>competitive success.)
>
SANDSONIC
Wow, Bettina, you really surprise me on this one! I really don't understand
the need to hate either Tara or Michelle and am continually amazed at the venom
expressed by fans of either side. I was just happy to see a good competition,
with two good, clean free skates - how often do we get that? I was rooting for
Michelle but I still cannot dislike Tara or be too upset with the results.
>is wrong with "Ladies'" figure skating: the overemphasis on
>jumps, demanding ever younger and smaller and slighter bodies
Hardly her fault, she can't control her body size even if she wanted to! And
if there is an overemphasis on jumps, is is her fault that she or her coach has
responded to what the judges seem to want? Shouldn't she play to her strength?
I definitely see evidence that she has been working on the other elements and
think she deserves some credit for them too!
>which can do them more easily; the stinting of formal education
>for more training time; the tunnel-vision focus on skating as the
>sole purpose of life; the sacrifice of any semblance of a
>"normal" family life for the sake of winning competitions
Name me a modern skater who hasn't! All of the skaters at this level have
travelled to go to top coaches and training centers. Michelle Kwan is tutored
also. It may be lamentable, but the trend was hardly started by Lipinski.
>She represents the culmination in figure skating of a trend
>that has already burned itself out in gymnastics: the insatiable
>media demand for the newest, the youngest, the smallest, the
>cutest, the winningest, and the casual discarding of the previous
>favorite as soon as another one comes along.
Sounds like more of a reason to feel sorry for her or to dislike those who have
manipulated her, rather than dislike Tara. But be honest - does Tara look like
someone who has been easily manipulated to you? I think she has been pulling
all the strings here.
>As a result, she's been overexposed to the
>point where a lot of people were already sick and tired of
And Michelle Kwan wasn't overexposed? What if Tara genuinely likes the media
attention? Is that more a reason to like her or dislike her?
>She has an adult head on a child's body, wears makeup like an
>adult but dresses and acts and *skates* like a child, sending
>confusing and disturbing mixed messages that tie into nightmare
>scenarios like the JonBenet Ramsey case and culturally
>unacceptable images such as Nabokov's "Lolita"
I remember the same criticism of Kwan when she first started wearing makeup and
doing more mature pieces. But again, most 15 year olds DO wear makeup and to
blame Tara for her young body is a bit silly, IMO. And to compare her to Jon
Ramsey or Lolita is a bit insulting and ridiculous. Actually, the problem seems
to be not so much that this is a culturally unacceptable image but that it is a
culturally encouraged phenomenon! I think you would hear the same amount of
criticism if she wore no makeup, only then it would be that Tara was obviously
a child and too young to be champion. Is it any wonder that she would then
cave into convention and wear makeup?
>She's had an outrageously long run of *incredibly* good luck,
You make your own luck. Every champion is "lucky". I think this description
is more apt for Pasha and Platov who are allowed to fall in competition and
still win. Tara doesn't hit triple triple combinations due to luck.
Sandy
DellaG
>Tara is far from the first to convulse her private life to pursue
>skating championships. Peggy Fleming moved to Colorado to be near
>Carlo Fassi.
Difference being that Peggy Fleming and her entire family moved to Colorado.
The move did not break up the family.
But, Dorothy Hamill's move to Colorado to be with Carol Fassi did have her
mother with her and her father on the East Coast.
Sara Freeman
In <34EFC6...@monumental.com> Sk8Maven <sk8m...@monumental.com>
writes:
>I've been giving the whole question much thought, and there are
>actually a number of quite valid reasons to dislike Tara
>Lipinski. Most of them don't have anything to do with her as a
>person (I have no idea what she's "really" like, since all that
>anyone ever sees is the media-made package).
>
>is wrong with "Ladies'" figure skating: the overemphasis on
>jumps, demanding ever younger and smaller and slighter bodies
>for more training time; the tunnel-vision focus on skating as the
>sole purpose of life; the sacrifice of any semblance of a
the
>dubious distinction of having been used as a negative example in
*both*
>Joan Ryan's "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes" *and* Christine Brennan's
>"Inside Edge".)
>
Sydne! Sure. It bet Brennan would like to eat her words.
--
"If the Truth is Out There, what's In Here?" - Nick Humphries
Sk8Maven
SANDSONIC wrote:
> Wow, Bettina, you really surprise me on this one! I really don't
> understand the need to hate either Tara or Michelle
I didn't say I "hated" Tara, I said I "disliked" her. Watching her makes
me feel uncomfortable, and I've been trying to figure out why.
> > She represents the quintessence of what a lot of people feel
> >is wrong with "Ladies'" figure skating: the overemphasis on
> >jumps, demanding ever younger and smaller and slighter bodies
>
> Hardly her fault, she can't control her body size even if she wanted
> to!
Not her *fault*, but a very disturbing trend in general -- she's simply
the most exaggerated example of it to come along thus far. G-d forbid we
see Kelly O'Grady pushed into Senior Nationals before she's twelve --
but the way things are going, we MIGHT.
> >the stinting of formal education
> >for more training time; the tunnel-vision focus on skating as the
> >sole purpose of life; the sacrifice of any semblance of a
> >"normal" family life for the sake of winning competitions
>
> Name me a modern skater who hasn't! All of the skaters at this level
> have travelled to go to top coaches and training centers. Michelle
> Kwan is tutored also. It may be lamentable, but the trend was hardly
> started by Lipinski.
I know that, but it always struck me as a Bad Thing to neglect your
education -- what happens if you *don't* achieve your athletic goals, or
if you achieve them too early? What do you do with the *rest* of your
life? As for family, they *should be* more important than medals.
> >She represents the culmination in figure skating of a trend
> >that has already burned itself out in gymnastics: the insatiable
> >media demand for the newest, the youngest, the smallest, the
> >cutest, the winningest, and the casual discarding of the previous
> >favorite as soon as another one comes along.
>
> Sounds like more of a reason to feel sorry for her or to dislike those
> who have manipulated her, rather than dislike Tara.
Not as long as she's riding the crest of the trend. The minute she's
tossed off for somebody younger, smaller, newer, *then* yes. But right
now she's top of the heap. (Watch out for the media discovering Patrice
McDonough, Naomi Nari Nam, or Elizabeth Kwon -- they already HAVE
discovered Kelly O'Grady, G-d help the poor child....)
> But be honest - does Tara look like someone who has been easily
> manipulated to you? I think she has been pulling all the strings
> here.
That makes *another* reason to dislike her.
> >As a result, she's been overexposed to the
> >point where a lot of people were already sick and tired of
>
> And Michelle Kwan wasn't overexposed?
Yes, and I got sick of *her* for a while. But then the Taramania
Juggernaut cranked up to full speed....
> What if Tara genuinely likes the media attention? Is that more a
> reason to like her or dislike her?
There's a "right way" and a "wrong way" to revel in media attention.
Scott Hamilton does it the "right way" -- he loves it, he *needs* it,
and he lets everyone see how much he needs it and appreciates it. Plus,
he doesn't take himself seriously. "Pasha" does it the "wrong way",
taking all the attention she can get -- even negative attention -- and
giving nothing back but a snotty attitude. Tara has to learn, and learn
*fast*, how best to handle all the adulation she's about to get.
> >She has an adult head on a child's body, wears makeup like an
> >adult but dresses and acts and *skates* like a child, sending
> >confusing and disturbing mixed messages that tie into nightmare
> >scenarios like the JonBenet Ramsey case and culturally
> >unacceptable images such as Nabokov's "Lolita"
>
> I remember the same criticism of Kwan when she first started wearing
> makeup and doing more mature pieces.
Kwan was quite obviously no longer a child when she started doing those
pieces. She wasn't quite an adult either, but she was well on her way.
Tara *doesn't* do "more mature pieces" -- she picks numbers that
emphasize her childlike appearance and make that heavy stage makeup seem
bizarrely inappropriate.
> >She's had an outrageously long run of *incredibly* good luck
> You make your own luck. Every champion is "lucky".
Not true. Some are damnably UNlucky, and manage to find the fortitude to
rise above it. Nicole Bobek, for instance, has had the most atrocious
run of *bad* luck of anyone I have ever seen -- and that she is still
competing at the world level *at all* is no small tribute to her courage
and determination.
Maven
The Cow Goddess
summu...@aol.com (Summusdeus) wrote:
sk8maven wrote-
> >sending
> >confusing and disturbing mixed messages that tie into nightmare
> >scenarios like the JonBenet Ramsey case
>
> Tara ... Jon Benet Ramsey? I don't see the connection.
i do. the dolled-up, made-up little girl placed into adult
situations. *shudder*
> >*Everything* has broken her way from the get-go, from being
> >the only child of doting parents wealthy enough to get her
> >properly started, to being in the right place at the right time
> >*every* time, to being "on" whenever her strongest competitors
> >were "off", to starting puberty so *excessively* late that she's
> >gotten all her serious winning done *first* and it no longer
> >matters when or how much she blossoms. People who are *that*
> >lucky are a major source of irritation to those of us who have to
> >make do with ordinary luck (or none at all, or consistent *bad* luck).
>
> Just because she's been more fortunate than you is no reason to put her down.
> Why should someone have to suffer in order to succeed or appreciate winning?
exactly.
reminds me of the British blues singers like Eric Clapton who felt they
had *no right* to be so good at their craft [then why do it in the first
place?] and who had to create situations in their lives where they could
feel the pain in order to create the music [this is one of Clapton's theories
on why he became a drug addict - i love the man, but *sheesh*!]. the
craft, the gift itself isn't enough???!!!
envy is, i think, the worst of all emotions.
we can envy Tara and be annoyed with her all we want, but, in the end,
she's a product of North American society - a society that worships youth
and success above all else.
and that means examining ourselves and our roles in promoting this
society and that's probably something people don't want to do.
we have seen the enemy and it is us...
angie
--
Breed of the Month - Jersey!
Commercial and/or unsolicited e-mail will be processed for a $500 Cdn
handling fee. Unsolicited sending constitutes acceptance.
Karen
maybe...it's the lack of respect we've percieved Tara to posess,
for anything.
everything i've seen of her resembles the 8 year old kids i have
sat for. oh well.
Barbara E. Walton
In a previous article, ang...@thetoybox.org (The Cow Goddess) says:
>i do. the dolled-up, made-up little girl placed into adult
>situations. *shudder*
Oh, yes, heaven forbid. She dared to outstep her caste. Kids must
all be watching Sesame Stree until they turn 18. This is crap.
>we can envy Tara and be annoyed with her all we want, but, in the end,
>she's a product of North American society - a society that worships youth
>and success above all else.
>
>and that means examining ourselves and our roles in promoting this
>society and that's probably something people don't want to do.
>
>we have seen the enemy and it is us...
What in heaven's name is wrong with youth and success? And, if anything,
I've noticed an extreme prejudice *against* young success. People
hear about prodigies and immediately yell "stage mother!" or think that
a childhood has been "stolen" in some way. Well, here's a little secret:
Not all kids want a "normal" childhood, if there is such a thing.
Prodigies do what they do because they *have* to do it, because *not*
doing it is unthinkable. The only extended study I know of on prodigies
-- David Feldman's "Nature's Gambit: Child Prodigies and the Development
of Human Potental" -- shows this repeatedly in its case studies.
To say that society lauds young acheivement is laughable. Two attitudes
are much more common. THe first is "Oh, the poor little things, being
forced into their pretty little boxes..." The second is "Those obnoxious
little brats *dare* to intrude in adult society!" (Witness the common
reaction to child actors in this regard -- regardless of the child's
actual performance skills.) Frankly, I'm glad every time I see a kid
thumbing his/her nose at these preposterous beliefs.
--
Barbara E. Walton
<av...@yfn.ysu.edu>
<heg...@abq.com>
David Yeh
Oh, please. The U.S. hockey team, that's lack of respect. Tara's fine.
-dave
Sum
The following is a post that I have read in one of the message
boards:
I was appalled and embarrassed by Michelle's attitude after winning the
Silver Medal. What happened to the spirit of the Olympics?
About giving up personal egos and allegiances, and reaching for
doing your best and celebrating others' victories? Michelle appeared
to be a poor loser and selfish enought to take away Tara's
excitement over winning the Gold. America walks away with the top two
medals, and all Michelle does is bemoan her measely Silver.
Whether or not Tara deserved the Gold (which Ibelieve she did!) is not
my point. Michelle's lack of good sportmanship is what many people
will remember about her performance.
The previous post is not meant to bash Tara or her fans. I just
want people to be fair when passing a judgement on someone else.
If you think it's fine for your favorite to scream in joy, then
what is so horrible/wrong if your non-favorite cries in disappointment
(in Michelle's case, it's not even the disappointment but just the
relief).
To me, poor sportsmanship does not have to come with losing. Some
people
can also show poor sportsmanship even when they win (No, I do NOT mean
to implicate Tara. I am just making a general statement).
Sum
Sum
I have made a slight mistake in my previous post. When I said "The
previous post is not meant to bash Tara or her fans", I meant the
previous post that I have written, not the one I have attached.
Sorry for any confusion that it may have caused.
And mind you. Just because someone wants to point out the unfairness
of Tara's fans on treating Michelle does not make that person a
Tara-phobe or vice versa. Can we keep discussions here as civilized as
possible without insulting the person that happens to have a different
opinion than yours?
Sum
Ankonabmw
Is Maven, the person who wrote the original post, a kid or an adult? I
suspect you're an adult. A kid would write a lot more swear words. What your
post says about you isvery disturbing. You sound like a very bitter,
negative, petty person who has had a miserable life. You have never succeeded
at anything, you were not a special child and you don't have any money. I
can't believe that you would write such negative things about a young girl that
you don't even know. But most of all I can't believe that you don't have more
pride in yourself than to reveal such a dark, unhappy spirit. I'm glad I'm not
around you every day.
Virginia Blalock
>> Tara ... Jon Benet Ramsey? I don't see the connection.
>
>i do. the dolled-up, made-up little girl placed into adult
>situations. *shudder*
I disagree, Jon Benet was made up to be a sex-pot glamor queen. Tara
most certainly is *not*. Plus, the age is a factor. Tara is a teen
while Job Benet was SIX. The Jon Benet can't be compared to Tara that
much really.
Shirley/Rick
> Interesting, but for me, the reason I I don't particularly care for
> Tara is that she's technically flawed in so many
> ways (horrible flutz, fake axel, tiny jumps and cheated
> combos etc), and I am sure she and her coach know it and
> worked hard to correct them. Yet she constantly
> proclaim she skated great and wondeful. Some may say
> she's confident, to me it's dishonesty, kind of reminding me
> of those incompetent people at workplace who talk the talk
> all the time (you know the type). There is a world of
> difference in stating "I did my best" and "I skated wonderful".
And Tara is the *first* person to win an Olympic Gold Medal with less than
perfect technique on every move she does????
--Shirley
Shirley/Rick
In article <34EFC6...@monumental.com>, sk8m...@monumental.com wrote:
> -- She represents the culmination in figure skating of a trend
> that has already burned itself out in gymnastics: the insatiable
> media demand for the newest, the youngest, the smallest, the
> cutest, the winningest, and the casual discarding of the previous
> favorite as soon as another one comes along.
So if she happens to be the "newest, youngest, smallest, cutest" and she
*wins*, she should withdraw from competing so as not to contribute to a
possible TREND?
> -- She's had the inestimable advantage of a media juggernaut that
> got rolling as soon as they noticed her four years ago, and that
> has gained increasing momentum with every exposure (whether or
> not she deserved it). As a result, she's been overexposed to the
> point where a lot of people were already sick and tired of
> hearing about her *two* years ago.
Tara doesn't have much control over how much the media overexposes her.
> -- She has an adult head on a child's body, wears makeup like an
> adult but dresses and acts and *skates* like a child, sending
> confusing and disturbing mixed messages that tie into nightmare
> scenarios like the JonBenet Ramsey case and culturally
> unacceptable images such as Nabokov's "Lolita".
That's REALLY a big stretch. Many 15-yr-old girls like to wear lots of
make-up. I read that Tara is in complete control over her own make-up for
competitions. Tara seems like a very happy, well-adjusted young teen. She
appears to have a good relationship w/her parents and w/her coach. Skating
apparently makes her happy. Part of having a good relationship w/anyone is
compromise. I'm sure there are *some* things Tara does at the advice of
her parents and coach. Perhaps letting her do her own make-up is a
compromise they have made for her. They all seem to be OK with it. I'd
*hardly* call Tara's image a "culturally unacceptable" one or compare her
to "Lolita" OR to JonBenet Ramsey !!! Her make-up is a bit heavy and
perhaps (in some opinions) the wrong color. Big deal.
> -- She's had an outrageously long run of *incredibly* good luck,
> much more so even than Oksana Baiul in 1993-94, and without "earning"
> it by previous misfortunes.
You mean it's OK/acceptable to have good luck as long as you had
misfortunes FIRST? Where did *that* come from? I suppose every time
something gets rung up at the check-stand for less than the listed price,
you TELL the checker that you'd prefer to pay more?
> *Everything* has broken her way from
> the get-go, from being the only child of doting parents wealthy
> enough to get her properly started, to being in the right place
> at the right time *every* time, to being "on" whenever her
> strongest competitors were "off", to starting puberty so
> *excessively* late that she's gotten all her serious winning done
> *first* and it no longer matters when or how much she blossoms.
I guess if she skates well and wins a competition when another competitor
had a bad day, she should rescind her win and turn in her medal because
the other skater didn't skate well too????? Being "on" when your
competitors are "off" isn't necessarily just "good luck." Sometimes being
"on" when you're supposed to be "on" occurs because you trained hard, put
in long hours and it paid off. *Any* time *any* skater is "on" when their
competitors are "off," they're going to be in an advantageous
spot...that's part of what competition is all about. No doubt, the *best*
competitions are when everyone skates their best, but realistically, that
doesn't always happen. Nothing should be taken away from a skater who had
the good fortune to be "on" at the right time.
> People who are *that* lucky are a major source of irritation to
> those of us who have to make do with ordinary luck (or none at
> all, or consistent *bad* luck).
It's so sad that people with ordinary luck or bad luck hate to see someone
else experience good fortune in life. Tara works pretty hard to achieve
what you call her "good luck" -- if some of your energy were spent on
achieving a goal in your life instead of spending so much time typing the
long dissertation about why Tara annoys you so much, maybe your luck would
be better too.
> -- If some of us are honest with ourselves, we will admit that we
> wish we had been *that* focused on something at that age, and had
> had *that* kind of a support network; and we feel like failures
> because we weren't and didn't.
It's true that some children are more fortunate than others. So the ones
who weren't as fortunate are justified in "dissing" the ones who were?
It's Tara's fault if you feel like a failure because you weren't as
fortunate as a child?
You certainly are entitled to your opinion about Tara. But the majority of
the reasons you gave for disliking her are not based on things *she* has
done, but rather on your own negative interpretation of her life and
image.
--Shirley
Nicole C-K
She won the gold, and Michelle didn't. ;-)
Nicole, already sick of the Tara and Michelle bashing here.
kyle victor
>>> Tara ... Jon Benet Ramsey? I don't see the connection.
Tara has to look like that to be seen on the ice.
>>>i do. the dolled-up, made-up little girl placed into adult
>>>situations. *shudder*
Tara wan't suppose to look like a beaty queen but a skater
>>I disagree, Jon Benet was made up to be a - glamor queen. Tara
The Cow Goddess
av...@yfn.ysu.edu (Barbara E. Walton) wrote:
> In a previous article, ang...@thetoybox.org (The Cow Goddess) says:
>
they didn't see it.]
> >i do. the dolled-up, made-up little girl placed into adult
> >situations. *shudder*
>
> all be watching Sesame Stree until they turn 18. This is crap.
*where* did i say that?
all i said is that i can see where some people might get the idea that
we are piling makeup on little kids and putting them out in
situations they may not be mature enough to handle.
if *you* can't see THAT, i'd say you're the one with blinders on.
> >we can envy Tara and be annoyed with her all we want, but, in the end,
> >she's a product of North American society - a society that worships youth
> >and success above all else.
> >
> >and that means examining ourselves and our roles in promoting this
> >society and that's probably something people don't want to do.
> >
> >we have seen the enemy and it is us...
>
> What in heaven's name is wrong with youth and success?
Barbara, if you bothered to read what i wrote - i'm not the person
with anything against it.
i was trying to offer an explanation for one person's obvious
envy of the advantages life has given Tara.
i do worry about our society pushing younger and younger girl
children into this [because the male skaters do, for the most part,
appear to be older].
Tara, just like your American *women's* gymnastics team, is a
product of a North American society that idolizes youth and success
above all.
> To say that society lauds young acheivement is laughable. Two attitudes
> are much more common. THe first is "Oh, the poor little things, being
> forced into their pretty little boxes..." The second is "Those obnoxious
> little brats *dare* to intrude in adult society!"
but that doesn't stop people from buying the *product* or wanting to
own a piece of the image, does it?
why are female gymnasts finished when puberty hits? fashion models
burned out by 30? why do older actresses complain about a lack of
roles for them?
i don't think any of these children are thumbing their noses at people,
they're doing exactly what our society says they can do - have it all
before they're 20. just don't get fat/ugly/burned out - because then
the adoring public will tear you down and you'll lose it all.
The Cow Goddess
> >> Tara ... Jon Benet Ramsey? I don't see the connection.
> >
> >situations. *shudder*
>
> most certainly is *not*. Plus, the age is a factor. Tara is a teen
> while Job Benet was SIX. The Jon Benet can't be compared to Tara that
> much really.
all i am trying to do is point out how the person who wrote that
original line could get that idea!!!!!
geez, you put a child in a ton of makeup, a tiny little dress, parade
her in front of the world and she's some agent's meal ticket. i can
see where some people might draw the parallels.
i don't mean that *I* think that way - but i sure can see where
some people might get that idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
cgla...@hotmail.com
I just knew I'd regret taking the entire weekend off... now I've got three
billion newsgroup posts to plow through, what with the post-Olympics boom.
Which explains my post-Olympics silence... I'm so backlogged, by the time I
even see a thread, it's already been settled.
However, no matter HOW behind you are, some things have just got to be
answered.
In article <34EFC6...@monumental.com>,
sk8m...@monumental.com wrote:
First off, you and I had pretty much the exact same discussion last year, so
I'm going to try and only hit specific points rather than recover the whole
ground.
<snip>
> the stinting of formal education for more training time;
This *assumes* that individual tutoring *is* a "stinted" education -- which
it is NOT.
Like every *other* privately tutored skater out there (i.e. -- practically
every adolescent Senior Lady on the planet), Tara *does* receive a full
education. It's just that by using tutors instead of group instruction, they
are achieving the full course of instruction while using fewer "classroom"
hours. With only one student, you don't have to "time-share" the
instructor's attention, so you can compress the schedule quite a bit
*without* skipping any of the course material.
<snip>
> the tunnel-vision focus on skating as the sole purpose of life;
Not the *sole* purpose, just the *key* purpose... and if you asked Michael
Jordan what the key of his life was, the answer would be 'To play
basketball.' Ask Wayne Gretsky that question, the answer is 'Hockey.' Brett
Favre? 'Football.'
You get the idea.
Tara is not a *recreational* skater, she is an *athlete*. Of COURSE skating
is going to be the current purpose of her life! What could possibly be more
blindingly obvious than that?
Is it possible for ANYONE to succeed in Seniors if they approach skating as a
dilettante?
Of course not. At the highlest levels of any sport (NFL, NBA, ML baseball,
ISU Seniors skating, whatever), the participants HAVE to choose to make their
sport their main purpose in life. At the highest levels, nothing less will
even get you in the door, much less all the way to the championship.
So why does *Tara* get singled out for having made skating the current focus
of her life? Why just her, and not every other Seniors competitor along with
her?
<snip>
>(Tara has the dubious distinction of having been used as a negative example
>in *both* Joan Ryan's "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes" *and* Christine
Brennan's "Inside Edge".)
But Joan Ryan and Christine Brennan share the dubious distinction of having
been completely WRONG about every prediction they made *about Tara* in those
two books. Christine especially.
Reread that "Taramania" chapter where Christine Brennan *flatly* predicted,
practically 'ex cathedra', the direction that Tara's life was going to go in
after 1995. Then compare those predictions to what actually happened and see
how accurate Christine was.
Accuracy rating -- zero point zero.
When the author blew *that* many calls *that* badly, I don't see how her book
can really be cited as an *authoritative* source any longer, at least where
Tara is concerned. Maybe Christine Brennan was more accurate about other
subjects, but where her "Taramania" chapter was concerned Christine's
predictions were a dead bust.
<snip>
> -- She's had the inestimable advantage of a media juggernaut that
> got rolling as soon as they noticed her four years ago, and that
> has gained increasing momentum with every exposure (whether or
> not she deserved it).
(LOL)
Media juggernaut? In *Tara's* favor?
Is this the same "juggernaut" that at least spent the entire past year being
actively ANTI-Tara, and that was overwhelmingly convinced (before the fact)
that even Tara's best performance could not possibly equal a clean skate from
the other main contender?
If anybody had a "media juggernaut" backing them going into this Olympics, it
was NOT Tara. We all know who it *was* (not that I blame her for even the
slightest bit of it), but it *wasn't* Tara.
<everything related to personal appearance snipped>
God picked Tara's genes, not Tara. If you really have that big a problem
with Tara's DNA sequencing and the body type that its granted her, send the
complaints to him, not us.
Stripped of the sarcasm, the above paragraph means that if Tara can't
possibly be responsible for it, by what stretch of the imagination can she be
blamed for it?
> -- She's had an outrageously long run of *incredibly* good luck,
> much more so even than Oksana Baiul in 1993-94, and without "earning"
> it by previous misfortunes.
"Earning it by *previous misfortunes*?"
This is sports, not soap opera!. Contrary to myth, you don't have to
"suffer" dramatically to "deserve" whatever medals your athletic performance
has been able to earn you.
If you outskate the other competitors on that given day, then you are
proclaimed the winner and you get the medal. This is called "competition".
> *Everything* has broken her way from the get-go,
(Michalle S Gould did a far better job of refuting this one than I can ever
dream of doing, but here goes nothing...)
*Everything" EXCEPT for the fact that for years between 1995 Blue Swords and
1997 US Nationals, Tara Lipinski *never won anything*.
ANYTHING. From the most prestigious Seniors titles to the most obscure of
Juniors events, Tara Lipinski missed the golden shot at every single one.
Not even the ones that she was predicted as a dead lock to win. ('95 Junior
Nationals, Worlds)
The *average* girl that age gets just a *little* discouraged at continuously
swinging and missing "the big one" for several years (which is several
subjective *eternities* to a kid *that* age). However, Tara does not
discourage anywhere near as easily as the "average" young lady. And that is
part of the reason why Tara is a champion and they aren't.
"Luck" is NOT responsible for Tara's will, spirit, or determination... or the
accomplishments that those traits have helped her to achieve.
*Tara* is responsible for those. So she deserves the credit for those.
Period.
<snip>
> People who are *that* lucky are a major source of irritation to
> those of us who have to make do with ordinary luck (or none at
> all, or consistent *bad* luck).
Speaking as another one of "those of us" whose luck has always ran from just
barely to downright awful, let me make one thing plain.
You do NOT speak for me!!!
If *you* choose to let jealousy consume you simply because other people on
this Earth have enjoyed better fortune than you, then that is your decision.
And the consequences of that decision will be yours as well.
Because, IMO, there is no real justification for jealousy, no matter how
intricate or thoroughly detailed the rationalization.
But *far more importantly*, there is NO possible BENEFIT to be gained from
jealousy. None. Ever.
Jealousy is the most poisonous of all human emotions. It is all negative in
its mental effects and has *no* positive side. The *only* thing jealousy can
do is to poison one's soul with venom and spite. It is one of the single
most useless and thoroughly *destructive* emotions a person could possibly
torment himself with.
So if you *really* want to handicap *your* spiritual journey through life
with the additional and thoroughly useless burden of jealousy, then go to it
and may God bless you. You'll need it.
But please, as a minimum, do rssif the courtesy of not trying to *export*
that destructive burden to the rest of us. We don't need it. You don't need
it. Nobody needs it.
--
Chuckg
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Sk8Maven
> >Not true. Some are damnably UNlucky, and manage to find the fortitude
> >to rise above it. Nicole Bobek, for instance, has had the most
> >atrocious run of *bad* luck of anyone I have ever seen -- and that she
> >is still competing at the world level *at all* is no small tribute to
> >her courage and determination.
>
> times she has just not been able to put it together when it is needed.
That, too -- but who else has had so *many* weird accidents just happen
to her (like somebody's dog jumping up and biting her for no particular
reason)? Who else has had her last and best coach drop dead in the
middle of the World Championships? Who else has gone straight from
bronchitis to flu at the Winter Olympics -- and NOT pulled out?
Nicole Bobek is a Weirdness Magnet, and she's under some kind of a hex
that ensures there will *always* be some reason why she can't do her
best when it counts most.
Maven
Elizabeth Matthews
JonBenet Ramsey
was five years old for chrissake !
Sara Freeman
In <34F064...@monumental.com> Sk8Maven <sk8m...@monumental.com>
writes:
>
>Not true. Some are damnably UNlucky, and manage to find the fortitude
to
>rise above it. Nicole Bobek, for instance, has had the most atrocious
>run of *bad* luck of anyone I have ever seen -- and that she is still
>competing at the world level *at all* is no small tribute to her
courage
>and determination.
>
>Maven
I am a fan of Nicole, but I don't think she has had bad luck. Many
times she has just not been able to put it together when it is needed.
Being able to put it together when it is needed in any sport is part of
being a great athlete too. If Michelle had gone all out and not skated
to tentatively, she probably would have won.
Sara Freeman
In <34F06E...@ix.netcom.com> Karen <kxl...@rit.edu> writes:
>
>maybe...it's the lack of respect we've percieved Tara to posess,
>for anything.
>everything i've seen of her resembles the 8 year old kids i have
>sat for. oh well.
What/who specifically has she not repected that you think she is
supposed to respect?
Kirk Chronus
In article <34f0b51f...@news.earthlink.net>, skat...@usa.net says...
>
>On Sun, 22 Feb 1998 13:27:31 -0500, ang...@thetoybox.org (The Cow
>Goddess) wrote:
>
>
>>> Tara ... Jon Benet Ramsey? I don't see the connection.
>>
>>i do. the dolled-up, made-up little girl placed into adult
>>situations. *shudder*
>
>I disagree, Jon Benet was made up to be a sex-pot glamor queen. Tara
>most certainly is *not*. Plus, the age is a factor. Tara is a teen
>while Job Benet was SIX. The Jon Benet can't be compared to Tara that
>much really.
>
>
Jusandra
Iaman...@fuck.me (Kirk Chronus) wrote:
>You're aabsolutely right. Jnonn Benet Ramsey was muc more womanly!
Kirk, you're boring.
Don't you have some Leggos you can play with instead of posting this crap?
Jenny
Tarawon
>-- She's had an outrageously long run of *incredibly* good luck,
>much more so even than Oksana Baiul in 1993-94, and without "earning"
>the get-go, from being the only child of doting parents wealthy
>enough to get her properly started, to being in the right place
>at the right time *every* time, to being "on" whenever her
>strongest competitors were "off", to starting puberty so
>*excessively* late that she's gotten all her serious winning done
>*first* and it no longer matters when or how much she blossoms.
>those of us who have to make do with ordinary luck (or none at
>all, or consistent *bad* luck).
I don't get why you consider all that to be good luck. By that reasoning all
Olympic Gold Medalists did not earn their medals but instead were simply
"lucky".
>
>-- If some of us are honest with ourselves, we will admit that we
>wish we had been *that* focused on something at that age, and had
>had *that* kind of a support network; and we feel like failures
>because we weren't and didn't. (For some reason Michelle Kwan
>doesn't trigger the same kind of envy, perhaps because we've seen
>her having a "normal" family life in addition to all her
>competitive success.)
>
>
I do sense a lot of jealousy. It's unfortunate that some folks can't just
accept Tara and be happy for her.
TaraWON!!!!
Barbara E. Walton
In a previous article, ang...@thetoybox.org (The Cow Goddess) says:
>> Oh, yes, heaven forbid. She dared to outstep her caste. Kids must
>> all be watching Sesame Stree until they turn 18. This is crap.
>
>*where* did i say that?
>
>all i said is that i can see where some people might get the idea that
>we are piling makeup on little kids and putting them out in
>situations they may not be mature enough to handle.
Okay. My mistake. It sounded like you were the one with that idea. It
was late at night.
>Barbara, if you bothered to read what i wrote - i'm not the person
>with anything against it.
It sure sounded like it, and continues to sound like it. If I
am reading you wrong, I'm sorry, but what I'm hearing repeated is that
you don't want to see young girls competing at this level, especially
since the men are older.
>i do worry about our society pushing younger and younger girl
>children into this [because the male skaters do, for the most part,
>appear to be older].
My point is, they aren't necessarily being pushed. There is a huge
prejudice in this country against young acheivers. They are portrayed as
being pushed (by "society" by "stage parents," etc), or as being
almost monstrously lonely (any one of a number of popular treatments of
the academically gifted). After all "normal" kids just want to fit in,
so those who don't must either be prisoners or monsters. As Carol Heiss
was quoted as saying, (roughly) "When you're fifteen and they tell you that
have lots of time, it doesn't mean much. You want the medal *now*." She
should know. And I don't see any reason why she should have to wait just
because of her age. There are enough things that are strictly age-based
in the world.
>
>Tara, just like your American *women's* gymnastics team, is a
>product of a North American society that idolizes youth and success
>above all.
>
I don't have a problem with them, either.
>> To say that society lauds young acheivement is laughable. Two attitudes
>> are much more common. THe first is "Oh, the poor little things, being
>> forced into their pretty little boxes..." The second is "Those obnoxious
>> little brats *dare* to intrude in adult society!"
>
>but that doesn't stop people from buying the *product* or wanting to
>own a piece of the image, does it?
I've seen it on Madison Avenue, but I don't know anyone who buys soup
because Tara Lipinsky tells them to. I do, on the other hand, hear several
people a day pulling one or the other of the prominent attitudes out of
their hats every time they see her.
>
>why are female gymnasts finished when puberty hits? fashion models
>burned out by 30? why do older actresses complain about a lack of
>roles for them?
I'd like to see the careers extended. The truth about athletics is a
simple medical principle -- women's bodies become much less flexible with
age. However, I don't see much reason why a body kept in good shape
couldn't compete with younger women. As long as the bar is met -- after
all, the point of competition is for the competitors to set the bar at
whatever level is proper for the group. Whoever can meet it should be
allowed to compete.
>
>i don't think any of these children are thumbing their noses at people,
>they're doing exactly what our society says they can do - have it all
>before they're 20. just don't get fat/ugly/burned out - because then
>the adoring public will tear you down and you'll lose it all.
A funny thing happens with child performers/athletes -- the more "adoring"
the public becomes, the more vitriolic the attacks become. Witness
Macauley Culkin (can't you hear that giant cringe at the name?). The
very fact that kids continute to perform in the face of this is the best
nose-thumbing I can imagine.
HILL JANET SWAN
Michalle S Gould <msg...@is6.nyu.edu> wrote:
>I find it interesting that people keep saying Tara has had 'good luck',
maybe it would have been clearer to call it "good fortune". I think if
you read the posting carefully, you'll see that all it says is that
Lipinski has had good fortune -- for instance the good fortune to be born
into a situation in which she could "discover" figure skating and pursue
it.
This in no way denigrates either her talent or her determination -- or,
for that matter, her considerable achievements.
janet
--
mello
I agree that Tara Lipinski was lucky.
The Olympics comes every 4 years.........now that the IOC made the Winter
and Summer olympics on different years, it's every 2 years (alternating
Winter and Summer)
Michelle Kwan was just plain unlucky. I'm a MK fan and thought she was
better than Tara, but it was unlucky for her to be first to skate that
night..........as what the commentator said, if MK skated last, her
artistry marks would've been 6.0s.
Anyway, if and only if IOC did not decide the Olympics to change every 2
years........like if they never changed the winter olympics, the winter
olympics would've been on 1996, the year when Michelle Kwan became World
Champ. I'm sure that she would've won gold if the Olympics was held then.
It went to Tara's advantage that the IOC did change the years for the
Winter olympics.......if it was on 1996, Tara wasn't even on the spotlight
yet!.......so basically, it's based on luck.
HILL JANET SWAN <hil...@spot.colorado.edu> wrote in article
<6cr1i9$4...@peabody.colorado.edu>...
DellaG
>Not her *fault*, but a very disturbing trend in general -- she's simply
>the most exaggerated example of it to come along thus far. G-d forbid we
>see Kelly O'Grady pushed into Senior Nationals before she's twelve --
>but the way things are going, we MIGHT.
You know the rules have been changed, so this will not happen. So come on,
let's get off this idea that the skaters will get younger and younger. If the
ISU changes its rules back, then, and only could we make comments like this!
Della
Che
The funny thing is that every teacher in the universe is for "small
class size". So here's Tara in a class of 1 and people think her
education is INFERIOR?
Oh well, no need to expect logic. People find negatives in the
strangest places. I remember Annette Funicello was in the same
situation as a star of the Mickey Mouse Club. Don't remember reading
anyone saying "Poor Annette".
chi...@calumet.purdue.edu
> actually a number of quite valid reasons to dislike Tara
> Lipinski. Most of them don't have anything to do with her as a
> person (I have no idea what she's "really" like, since all that
> anyone ever sees is the media-made package).
>
> -- She represents the quintessence of what a lot of people feel
> is wrong with "Ladies'" figure skating: the overemphasis on
> jumps, demanding ever younger and smaller and slighter bodies
> which can do them more easily; the stinting of formal education
> for more training time; the tunnel-vision focus on skating as the
> sole purpose of life; the sacrifice of any semblance of a
> "normal" family life for the sake of winning competitions. (Tara has the
> dubious distinction of having been used as a negative example in *both*
> Joan Ryan's "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes" *and* Christine Brennan's
> "Inside Edge".)
>
> that has already burned itself out in gymnastics: the insatiable
> media demand for the newest, the youngest, the smallest, the
> cutest, the winningest, and the casual discarding of the previous
> favorite as soon as another one comes along.
>
> got rolling as soon as they noticed her four years ago, and that
> has gained increasing momentum with every exposure (whether or
> point where a lot of people were already sick and tired of
> hearing about her *two* years ago.
>
> adult but dresses and acts and *skates* like a child, sending
> confusing and disturbing mixed messages that tie into nightmare
> scenarios like the JonBenet Ramsey case and culturally
> unacceptable images such as Nabokov's "Lolita".
>
> much more so even than Oksana Baiul in 1993-94, and without "earning"
> it by previous misfortunes. *Everything* has broken her way from
> the get-go, from being the only child of doting parents wealthy
> enough to get her properly started, to being in the right place
> at the right time *every* time, to being "on" whenever her
> strongest competitors were "off", to starting puberty so
> *excessively* late that she's gotten all her serious winning done
> *first* and it no longer matters when or how much she blossoms.
> People who are *that* lucky are a major source of irritation to
> those of us who have to make do with ordinary luck (or none at
> all, or consistent *bad* luck).
>
> wish we had been *that* focused on something at that age, and had
> had *that* kind of a support network; and we feel like failures
> because we weren't and didn't. (For some reason Michelle Kwan
> doesn't trigger the same kind of envy, perhaps because we've seen
> her having a "normal" family life in addition to all her
> competitive success.)
>
>
> Maven
>
Whew! And just what is YOUR problem?
Michele Atupan
The one reason I can think of to dislike Tara from the
poin of view of some REAL tara-phobes is:
Tara won the Gold and favorite didn't.
Fiona McQuarrie
: > Interesting, but for me, the reason I I don't particularly care for
: > Tara is that she's technically flawed in so many
: > ways (horrible flutz, fake axel, tiny jumps and cheated
: > combos etc), and I am sure she and her coach know it and
: > worked hard to correct them.
Maybe instead of disliking Tara we should dislike the judges who award
marks to such technical flaws over less flawed programs.
Cheers, Fiona
(still annoyed)
Kaiju
Michele Atupan wrote:
>
> The one reason I can think of to dislike Tara from the
> poin of view of some REAL tara-phobes is:
>
> Tara won the Gold and favorite didn't.
Cute, but not really accurate. Anyone who has been perusing this newsgroup
will know that those who dislike Tara did so long before she won the Gold at
the Olympics. And many of those disliked her before 1997's Worlds, as well.
It is more accurate to say that fans take a preference to certain
styles...skating and otherwise.
Kaiju <not confessing to anything here...just an observation...>
HILL JANET SWAN
>In article <34EFC6...@monumental.com>,
> sk8m...@monumental.com wrote:
>>
>> I've been giving the whole question much thought, and there are
>> actually a number of quite valid reasons to dislike Tara
>> Lipinski. Most of them don't have anything to do with her as a
>> person (I have no idea what she's "really" like, since all that
>> anyone ever sees is the media-made package).
for the record, I'd like to thank Maven for doing us the compliment of
sharing his ruminations, and for being open and honest about his views,
even though he recognized them as being irrational. I believe that
he put his finger on many of the reasons that some people may be "put off"
by Lipinski ..... and as he noted, they are not reasons that have anything
to do with Lipinski herself, so much as they are "circumstances"
and "types".
If people could read this little essay NOT as "why Maven doesn't like
Lipinski", and instead read it as "some of the reasons that some people
may find themselves almost inevitably disliking someone like Lipinski"
..... and then could reflect on the content, it could go a long way to
helping them separate the person (Lipinski) from the *idea* of the person.
I for one find the ability to "talk through" ideas in a place like this to
be one of the values of the place. And I appreciate the risk that people
take when they examine their souls and/or their ideas "in front of us".
janet
--
Lulu
In article <6csjah$8t3$2...@morgoth.sfu.ca>, mcqu...@sfu.ca (Fiona
McQuarrie) wrote:
Agreed; it's not Tara's fault but rather the judges. Tara is merely the
after effect...the problem is, though, that, like G&P, it's rather hard to
extract the skater(s) from the judges, since quite a lot of people believe
that if the judging was different and more fair (in their eyes, I'm trying
to keep my opinion out of it :), neither would've won. So gaining the
benefits from bad judging is going to make people dislike the skater for
this, and not respect them.
Just a thought -- I think the reasoning that she's very technically flawed
but the judges ignore it is a very sound reason to not respect or like
Tara THE SKATER, but Tara THE PERSON should be respected for dealing with
everything admirably and going out there and trying it. What I'm trying to
say, basically, is that I think much of the message that started this
thread is crap, but I don't think the judging reasoning is a bad reason to
dislike her as a skater, mainly because if she develops into a better
skater, said reasoning might change. Reasoning about her age or size won't
change, though.
Cheers,
Lulu
--
Visit the Spice Rack: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/6151/
Sk8Maven
Che wrote:
> The funny thing is that every teacher in the universe is for "small
> class size". So here's Tara in a class of 1 and people think her
> education is INFERIOR?
Ever been tutored? I was. It left me with excellent verbal and
linguistic skills, but with severe deficiencies in math and science --
and absolutely NO social skills. I've had to learn late and the hard way
what average kids absorb on a daily basis at an early age without even
*knowing* they're learning it.
I don't think it's a satisfactory substitute, and I have much more
admiration for those athletes who slog their way through school as well
as skating competitively at the elite level.
Maven
Sk8Maven
Barbara E. Walton wrote:
> A funny thing happens with child performers/athletes -- the more
> "adoring" the public becomes, the more vitriolic the attacks become.
> Witness Macauley Culkin (can't you hear that giant cringe at the
> name?).
It's the "Nermal Reflex", to borrow a term from the comic strip
"Garfield". Kids who are "terminally cute" make some people want to hug
them and others want to barf. (It certainly didn't start with Macaulay
Culkin -- Shirley Temple elicited the same mixed reaction. The British
writer Graham Greene -- not to be confused with the Native American
actor -- *loathed* her and wrote reviews so vitriolic that she sued him
for libel.)
Maven
Sk8Maven
> for the record, I'd like to thank Maven for doing us the compliment of
> sharing his ruminations
"His", Janet? :-)
Maven, aka Bettina
The Cow Goddess
sk8m...@monumental.com wrote:
> The British writer Graham Greene -- not to be confused with the
> Native American actor
*ahem*
native *Canadian* actor...
Shirley/Rick
> Che wrote:
> > The funny thing is that every teacher in the universe is for "small
> > class size". So here's Tara in a class of 1 and people think her
> > education is INFERIOR?
>
> Ever been tutored? I was. It left me with excellent verbal and
> linguistic skills, but with severe deficiencies in math and science --
> and absolutely NO social skills. I've had to learn late and the hard way
> what average kids absorb on a daily basis at an early age without even
> *knowing* they're learning it.
You *do* bring up a good point about the social aspects of attending
school versus being tutored. There is *no* substitute for interacting
w/other children who are the same age on a daily basis. Tara *does*
however, seem to be very outgoing and not introverted. She seems to have
many friends and doesn't seem (from what they've shown us) to be lacking
in social skills. The difference is that she probably interacts with more
older people on a regular basis than kids her age who attend school. Each
case is unique -- in some instances, I think kids who are tutored end up
as you described above; however, there are others who come out of it with
no ill affects whatsoever, and it LOOKS as though Tara will be one of
those at this point in time.
(Also, if you are a child being tutored because you are ill for a lengthy
period of time, you're going to be a lot more isolated than you would be
if you're being tutored because you're a competitive figure skater that's
out amongst people all the time.)
--Shirley
cgla...@hotmail.com
In article <34F207...@monumental.com>,
sk8m...@monumental.com wrote:
>
> Che wrote:
> > The funny thing is that every teacher in the universe is for "small
> > class size". So here's Tara in a class of 1 and people think her
> > education is INFERIOR?
>
> Ever been tutored? I was. It left me with excellent verbal and
> linguistic skills, but with severe deficiencies in math and science
But how do we know that the *tutoring* is to blame for that, instead of that
having happened simply because you simply had a much better aptitude for
verbal/linguistic skills than you did for math/science skills?
After all, every different person has different aptitudes. Maybe the same
thing re: math comprehension vs. verbal comprehension would have happened to
you had you attended public school your entire life.
I know that MY high-school class was full of kids who simply could not grasp
"if the equation is (x - 2)=5, that means that x=7" no matter *how* much
instruction they received... and other kids who could absorb trigonometry
like a sponge absorbed water and do integral calculus in their heads, but
couldn't write a coherent essay to save their lives. It just happens that
way sometimes, regardless of the type of instruction.
> and absolutely NO social skills.
Ummm... considering how outgoing and personable Tara is, and how she's
apparently been able to charm the socks off of everybody in the entire city
of Nagano, and the large amount social life she has with people her own age
that Tara *does* have back at the DSC -- I think we can safely assume that
Tara does not lack social skills.
PS -- and yet again, tutoring does not automatically imply lack of social
skills, any more than public school automatically implies presence of social
skills.
You can attend public schools your entire life and STILL not pick up any
social skills. Case in point -- me. I didn't even begin to learn how to be
sociable with other people until after I was 22 and had already been in the
Navy for three years. Goodness knows that high school hadn't taught me a
bloody thing about social skills.
> I've had to learn late and the hard way what average kids absorb on a daily
> basis at an early age without even *knowing* they're learning it.
Re: social skills... so have I. So have other people of my acquaintance.
And it wasn't because of tutoring either, because neither I or they have ever
attended anything but the standard group classroom.
> I don't think it's a satisfactory substitute,
AFAIK, what studies that have been done about home-schooling show that the
home-schooled kids tend to perform far better in college, show post-college
career results equivalent to the normally taught, and as a general rule do
not show any significant social maladjustment.
Any professional social scientists reading this newsgroup... please confirm.
Or deny, as the case may be.
Che
From what I've read, Tara has buddies and spends time with them. I
guess I just wouldnt worry about her that much. She says "I'm living
my dream", and I take that at face value. One of the first things
observers noticed was that she was one of the few people at the big
meets who seemed to be having fun all the time.
HILL JANET SWAN
>> for the record, I'd like to thank Maven for doing us the compliment of
>> sharing his ruminations
>
>"His", Janet? :-)
(removing head from under wing: sorry, Bettina. slipped into
old-fashioned English (something I don't often do) in choosing pronouns.
janet
--
Louis Epstein
Sk8Maven (sk8m...@monumental.com) wrote:
:
: Not as long as she's riding the crest of the trend. The minute she's
: tossed off for somebody younger, smaller, newer, *then* yes. But right
: now she's top of the heap. (Watch out for the media discovering Patrice
: McDonough, Naomi Nari Nam, or Elizabeth Kwon -- they already HAVE
: discovered Kelly O'Grady, G-d help the poor child....)
I first saw Elizabeth Kwon on TV when she was 7.
Don't forget the Kongs,or Jennifer Kirk.
Benjamin Smith
On Mon, Feb 23, 1998 6:40 PM, Sk8Maven <mailto:sk8m...@monumental.com>
wrote:
>> A funny thing happens with child performers/athletes -- the more
>> "adoring" the public becomes, the more vitriolic the attacks become.
>> Witness Macauley Culkin (can't you hear that giant cringe at the
>> name?).
I only cringe because I disliked Home Alone so much and don't really like
his acting. But there are some kids Spielberg put in his movies, like Drew
Barry more that I liked.
But take a look at some of these child actors. Most of them are very
unsuccessful as they grew up.
Ben S.
ama...@ix.netcom.com
I agree. Look at it this way: Suppose the Olympics had been held last
year. Does anybody think Tara still would have won, at the stage she was
at?
Sara Freeman
In <B118E82...@209.109.225.228> "Benjamin Smith"
<be...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>On Mon, Feb 23, 1998 6:40 PM, Sk8Maven
<mailto:sk8m...@monumental.com>
>wrote:
>>> A funny thing happens with child performers/athletes -- the more
>>> "adoring" the public becomes, the more vitriolic the attacks
become.
>>> Witness Macauley Culkin (can't you hear that giant cringe at the
>>> name?).
>
>I only cringe because I disliked Home Alone so much and don't really
like
>his acting. But there are some kids Spielberg put in his movies, like
Drew
>Barry more that I liked.
Yea, and now one of her big hobbies is taking her clothes off in
public.
>
>But take a look at some of these child actors. Most of them are very
>unsuccessful as they grew up.
>
>Ben S.
>
>
--
"If the Truth is Out There, what's In Here?" - Nick Humphries
Louis Epstein
mello (lim.f...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: I agree that Tara Lipinski was lucky.
:
: The Olympics comes every 4 years.........now that the IOC made the Winter
: and Summer olympics on different years, it's every 2 years (alternating
: Winter and Summer)
:
: Michelle Kwan was just plain unlucky. I'm a MK fan and thought she was
: better than Tara, but it was unlucky for her to be first to skate that
: night..........as what the commentator said, if MK skated last, her
: artistry marks would've been 6.0s.
:
: Anyway, if and only if IOC did not decide the Olympics to change every 2
: years........like if they never changed the winter olympics, the winter
: olympics would've been on 1996, the year when Michelle Kwan became World
: Champ. I'm sure that she would've won gold if the Olympics was held then.
:
: It went to Tara's advantage that the IOC did change the years for the
: Winter olympics.......if it was on 1996, Tara wasn't even on the spotlight
: yet!.......so basically, it's based on luck.
Tara was on the 1996 World Team...she got her first "spotlight"
at the 1994 OlyFest,where she won aged just 12 after being named
at the last minute to replace Michelle Cho in the field.
Louis Epstein
DellaG (del...@aol.com) wrote:
: >Not her *fault*, but a very disturbing trend in general -- she's simply
: >the most exaggerated example of it to come along thus far. G-d forbid we
: >see Kelly O'Grady pushed into Senior Nationals before she's twelve --
: >but the way things are going, we MIGHT.
:
: You know the rules have been changed, so this will not happen. So come on,
: let's get off this idea that the skaters will get younger and younger. If the
: ISU changes its rules back, then, and only could we make comments like this!
Please,Della,don't treat such a rule change as unlikely!!
They change rules EVERY Congress...this one was adopted at the last
Congress,and since then Tara has discredited it pretty convincingly.
Louis Epstein
DellaG (del...@aol.com) wrote:
: >Not her *fault*, but a very disturbing trend in general -- she's simply
: >the most exaggerated example of it to come along thus far. G-d forbid we
: >see Kelly O'Grady pushed into Senior Nationals before she's twelve --
: >but the way things are going, we MIGHT.
:
: You know the rules have been changed, so this will not happen. So come on,
: let's get off this idea that the skaters will get younger and younger. If the
: ISU changes its rules back, then, and only could we make comments like this!
And oh yes...there has been NO rule to limit the age of Senior Nationals
entries(which are up to USFSA,not ISU)...and God forbid that there be any!
Tim
hey, does anyone think it's time to change the name of this thread?
:P
Information Arcade Public Workstation
Kaiju wrote:
>
> Michele Atupan wrote:
> >
> > The one reason I can think of to dislike Tara from the
> > poin of view of some REAL tara-phobes is:
> >
> > Tara won the Gold and favorite didn't.
>
> Cute, but not really accurate.
The poster was obviously just making things up.
> Anyone who has been perusing this newsgroup
> will know that those who dislike Tara
> did so long before she won the Gold at
> the Olympics. And many of those
> disliked her before 1997's Worlds, as well.
Yes. And why? Because of her personality.
Many people consider Tara to be mean, ill-mannered,
and a pretty inconsiderate person.
> It is more accurate to say that fans take a preference to certain
> styles...skating and otherwise.
For some people, yes. For other people, every time
we hear about how Tara was jumping and laughing
for joy when one time Michelle fell down on
the ice, that just gives another reason to dislike
her. Of course the Taraluvers would just say:
"she's just being competitive." My response
to them: *Yawn*. Maybe Tara should learn some
manners, OK?
Louis Epstein
The Cow Goddess (ang...@thetoybox.org) wrote:
: sk8m...@monumental.com wrote:
:
: > The British writer Graham Greene -- not to be confused with the
: > Native American actor
:
: *ahem*
:
: native *Canadian* actor...
:
: angie
ahem...to the Natives,some part of "America" being called "Canada"
is an outside imposition...
Louis Epstein
cgla...@hotmail.com wrote:
: In article <34F207...@monumental.com>,
: sk8m...@monumental.com wrote:
: >
: > Che wrote:
: > > The funny thing is that every teacher in the universe is for "small
: > > class size". So here's Tara in a class of 1 and people think her
: > > education is INFERIOR?
: >
: > Ever been tutored? I was. It left me with excellent verbal and
: > linguistic skills, but with severe deficiencies in math and science
:
: But how do we know that the *tutoring* is to blame for that, instead of that
: having happened simply because you simply had a much better aptitude for
: verbal/linguistic skills than you did for math/science skills?
Or,more obviously,that the tutors were not good in math and science?
ANY form of education can be done badly,but through history the royal
and wealthy have preferred to educate their children privately...not
because they find that form lacking!
Kaiju
Please note that it wasn't me who made the remarks about Tara's personality.
Kaiju
Lulu wrote:
>
> In article <34F43E...@mail.lib.uiowa.edu>, Information Arcade Public
> Workstation <pub...@mail.lib.uiowa.edu> wrote:
>
> >Kaiju wrote:
> >> Anyone who has been perusing this newsgroup
> >> will know that those who dislike Tara
> >> did so long before she won the Gold at
> >> the Olympics. And many of those
> >> disliked her before 1997's Worlds, as well.
> >Yes. And why? Because of her personality.
> >Many people consider Tara to be mean, ill-mannered,
> >and a pretty inconsiderate person.
>
> Erm, personally, I find it really off when people say this -- it implies
> that what they do on the ice doesnt matter, and that the impression you
> get from them in interviews or short camera shots is the proper way to
> judge them. As for me, I don't care for Tara simply because I don't think
> she is a good skater at this time. She is generic, a little sloppy, and
> generally has poor presentation. The fact that she apparently only has two
> programmes these days doesn't endear me to her either. I hope she
> improves.
>
> Cheers,
> Lulu
Lulu
Cheers,
Lulu
--
quad...@gmail.com
> How anyone can think she's been lucky is beyond me.
It is certainly true that after her win at Nagano, she did not have good luck.
Due to health reasons or injuries, she had to cut her figure skating career
short.
If one were to - in jest, rather than seriously - look for reasons to dislike
Tara Lipinski, though, I have found one! She spells her name wrong!!
Yes, she is really Tara Lipiński, but by never using the accent on the N in her
last name, she is betraying her Polish heritage!
However, I see from an article about her that she wears a St. Thérèse de Lisieux
medal, so apparently she takes her faith seriously, and presumably that means
she is conscious of her Polish heritage as well, even if she bows to the
convenience of American typesetters.
Incidentally, she is at least the second, rather than the first, famous and
talented Lipiński. Karol Lipiński was a violin virtuoso second only to the
legendary Paganini in his day. The Stradivarius and Guarneri violins that passed
through his hands are still named after him.
John Savard