Coffman 951 pipe dyno test
Ross Liberty
Stock engine with an R and D flame arrestor made 135 HP at 6900 rpm, the
Coffman Pipe made 143 HP at 7300 rpm and our twins made 149 HP at 7100
rpm. In all fairness to the Coffman pipe it is of course easier to
install than a set of twin pipes.
We at Factory Pipe are considering a Spec I/Spec II format as we had
with the 785 Sea-Doo. In this case our Spec I would be "suspiciously"
similar to the Coffman pipe and would sell for about $500.00 retail and
the Spec II would be the twin pipes we have been working on which would
sell for $1300 retail and would include a revlimiter and ECWI (tm). We
invite comments from the group.
Please feel free to comment on the "morality" of Factory Pipe making a
pipe very similar to the Coffman pipe for about 1/2 the price. We know
we would make money at that and we could build a pipe which has superior
craftsmanship than Coffman's with the exact same performance. We never
copy another company's product for moral reasons. However, if you look
at what has been happening to us over the years you can see why we are
reconsidering that position. Factory Pipe is the most innovative company
in the watercraft industry and thus we are the most imitated. We are the
first to make a 550 limited or 1/2 pipe. Factory Pipe was far and away
the first to come up with "water tunable" headpipes (remember the 3
screws in the HP). Factory Pipe was the first to come out ECWI (tm).
Every one of these concepts have been "borrowed" by competitors and
frankly while I am flattered am also very sick of it.
While many on this NG believe pipes are over priced they do not
understand the cost of R and D, without that cost we can sell a Coffman
Copy very cheaply. If you are considering the purchase of a Coffman 951
pipe you may want to wait a few weeks, they may soon become a commodity
item.
Best regards,
Ross H. Liberty
Owner, Factory Pipe
ps. I also invite commentary from Pam and Gary Coffman. As I said to
them after they copied my 550 limited pipe," There is nothing I can do
so I will try and be gracious, I hope you will be as gracious when the
shoe is on the other foot".
Scrambler
make a better pipe then the other guys then let the people buying the pipe
say so and not the owner,if you feel that you have to bash the Coffman pipe
then you must be worried about something. Do you not think that we already
have enough of that on this group. Oh and by the way I have had your pipe
before the triples and if you ask me they are not worth the 2500.00 I guess
that is why everyone I have talked to that as them is getting rid of
them.Sorry but that tells me that you need to go back to your R&D and make
something just a little better in a singl pipe,or would that be coping the
Coffman pipe/ Just deal with the competion is that not why you got into the
pipe business. Do you think that you are the only one around that makes
pipes that are any good. WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!. .If you ask me. If Coffman
comes out with this single pipe and it produces like it is suppose to th
Ross Liberty wrote in message <36E08769...@factorypipe.com>...
Chris Ellis
You mentioned that the spec2 would come with ECWI and a rev. limiter.
Does the spec1 come with any of this, or is this price just for the
pipe.
If not how much will it cost to add the ECWI to the spec1?
Thanks,
Chris Ellis
P.S. Remember do unto others as they have done unto you in the past!!!!
SL (SeaLion)
nice to choose. I'm still waiting for someone to manufacture a pipe that
works for my Polaris SL750 : ) . Ross I admire your honest evaluation of
the Coffmans pipe. Both you and Coffmans have quality products that perform.
Honestly, if I had an XPL I would probably flip a coin to decide which one I
will purchase. This of course would only apply if they were identical
performing single pipes. I'm sure the prices will be similar, but who knows.
Ross Prevette wrote:
> Ross,
>
> At the end of the day the price will be the real decider. If your
> Factory pipe (Coffmans copy) can produce exactly the same performance
> for approximately $400.00 less , I will order one now. Morality may be
> a factor for manufacturers but the average purchaser of aftermarket
> products dosen't give a toss. It all comes down to the bucks, especially
> when dealing with reputable company's selling comparative products . If
> you were a new or virtually unknown manufacturer I might think twice,
> However any one who has been around the PWC industry for a while, will
> agree that your company "Factory Pipe" has an enviable reputation. I
> will now hold of buying a Coffmans 951 pipe and wait to see if you go
> into production with your "copy" pipe , I will certainly buy one if you
> do!
>
> Regards
>
> Ross Prevette
> New Zealand
--
97 Polaris SLT700, 95 Polaris SL750, 90 Kawasaki X-2
98 Dodge Ram CC 1500, 87 Jeep Wrangler
99 Wildwood 25' Toyhauler
Solas1420
people are in business for themselves to make money,if you can make a pipe that
resembles the other co. and it works ...go for it!people will buy what they
want to buy....in my opinion you would not be stepping on anyones toes. you are
well respected in this business and that does count for something. let the
people choose.
solas"just deal with it"1420
TDKMS
I've used your pipes for many years, and I feel they are the best made today.
Other manufacturers use your pipes to aid in their design processes, so I feel
you have the same right. I'll bet it is a little difficult for the number one
pipe maker to stoop down and make a copy of another's pipe, but in all fairness
there is nothing wrong with it. I respect your ability to be so straight
forward with everyone. Thanks for all you've done to add so much excitement to
the sport. Take care.
-Troy
W.S. O'Neal
Was that an earthquake from up north ? Epicenter about 60 miles north of
San Francisco ?
Bill O'Neal
WCM
--
Bill @ E-MAIL: Water...@worldnet.att.net
MSIM 63
difficult question. However as a consumer I say get everything you can out
there as quickly as possible. The only things I am really concerned with to
are, the on water performance difference between the single and the twin and
when will they be available. I like the ability of the twin to make it's hp at
a lesser rpm. Business is war, my competitors try to undercut me everyday.
Maurice Simpson
Rexven
>ross,
>people are in business for themselves to make money,if you can make a pipe that
>resembles the other co. and it works ...go for it!people will buy what they
>want to buy....in my opinion you would not be stepping on anyones toes. you are
>well respected in this business and that does count for something. let the
If there were really rules and morals about copying other people Ford
would have been out of business a long time ago. Enjoy the new
business!
Rexven
wrote:
>have enough of that on this group. Oh and by the way I have had your pipe
>before the triples and if you ask me they are not worth the 2500.00 I guess
$2,500 for a pipe? Hell with that when I can get an entire
Supercharger for that much! $2,500 for 10hp or so doesn't seem like
it's remotely worth the while. $750 maybe.. but $2,500?
DMLSFCA
Very well put. Pam and Gary are good people and have a very respectable
company. Factory and Coffman are like Apple and Oranges. As you have said
Factory is an innovative company, but the fruits of labor reflects upon the R&D
and hard work that each company puts into. Which means Gary deserves to be in
the spot light at the moment. Until something better comes along. Hopefully,
you will choose the other road, not to copy and enhance upon the given product
that is already out there, but to develop your own version, which reflects upon
your fruits of labor and R&D that makes Factory for what it is. Whatever pipe
or set up you pick to market, just do the best you can at your product and the
truth will prevail. Cheaters never win, if you plan to be in business for a
long time I think, in the long run time will determine just how good you or
Coffman will be. A company's reputation is sometimes more profitable in the
long run than an overnight $$ haul. What do you think? Besides you have the
twin pipes. I am not for Factory nor Coffman. I buy and use from who has the
best. That reflects their hard work and deserves the sale.
H20..>>JETJAMR
craigs1001
>make a better pipe then the other guys then let the people buying the pipe
>say so and not the owner,if you feel that you have to bash the Coffman pipe
BASHING? WHERE?? I personally did not take it as a bashing. I mean, read this
again>
>Factory Pipe recently tested the Coffman 951 pipe with good results. Our
>In all fairness to the Coffman pipe it is of course easier to
>>install than a set of twin pipes.
My 3 cents worth... outta here.
'Craig
William Vernon
companies I find it hard to fathom the ethical problem. Virtually every
part, every feature on each part of any vehicle we produce is either our
own design idea, or a copy of the best design available from any
competitor (within cost objectives). They operate in the same manner.
All competitive vehicles are purchased and torn down. Every nut and
bolt that can be removed. Everything is laid out on a table for
analysis. Vehicle teardown information is then relayed throughout the
organization and the best designs are copied. The Japanese are masters
at the art of copying while adding improvement to the design. Take it
for what it's worth but I wouldn't lose any sleep over using the Coffman
design as a starting point for your own efforts.
X*2 & XPL Fan (Dennis Copfer)
A couple comments from a rec guy who's actually been thinking about
the Coffman for later this summer....primarily because I've been
figuring the twins would be a lot more than the single and finding a
used single might be easy after the twins come out. (I'm not too
hopeful that I'll like a triple in the XP hull, either.)
However, I'm kinda amazed and pleased that the twins will make the
power at the lower rpms.....and I find that more attractive until Bill
O., you, or someone else I trust advises me differently. Obviously,
I'm hoping that also means better power at low end with ECWI, too.
I guess I'd like to see you offer the twins at a price similar to the
Coffman (in spite of the cost diff.) and charge competitive prices for
the extra parts....to keep volume up and spread the R&D accross more
sales.
But business is business, so make the best decision *for your
business* and move on.
dc
Snap...did you notice the stock hp #? :)
Ross Liberty <fpr...@factorypipe.com> wrote:
>Factory Pipe recently tested the Coffman 951 pipe with good results. Our
>Stock engine with an R and D flame arrestor made 135 HP at 6900 rpm, the
>Coffman Pipe made 143 HP at 7300 rpm and our twins made 149 HP at 7100
>rpm. In all fairness to the Coffman pipe it is of course easier to
>install than a set of twin pipes.
SHARK DADDY
I'm sure other companies have stole Factory Pipe's designs but I have never
seen any of them directly admit it in an attempt to stop future sales of a
competitor.
There is no question on my mind that Factory Pipe is trying to slow down the
sales of the Coffman XPL pipe by offering a cheaper copy. If you read
closely, they even suggest that you wait for their pipe to come out before
you buy.
It would seem that there is a fear by Factory Pipe that all their R&D
efforts will go to waste if everyone purchases the Coffman pipe first. You
will not find many XPL owners switching over to a Factory Pipe once they
have bought a Coffman pipe already.
I would suggest to everyone that is considering buying a Coffman pipe to go
ahead and do so. This pipe already has been proven and there is no telling
the time it will take Factory Pipe to actually put out a copy and whether it
will produce the same results.
Factory Pipe is a great company. I have used many of their products in the
past but this seems like desperation. There is no telling how low they will
go after this one. I'm very sorry to see them taking this kind of approach.
Martin Cadalora
Ross Liberty wrote in message <36E08769...@factorypipe.com>...
OneShely
What is your problem? Many of us racers have been through this with your
business (FPP), we call to find out when a pipe will be available and inquire
every few days - weeks and you tell us you are working on a pipe for a 785cc
Sea Doo….. We keep calling back and finally 20 months later you produce it with
only a 7-8 Horse Power gain and charge…. What $650.00 - 850.00 for that small
gain. This has been the same thing with the new Sea Doo 951cc limited
watercraft! You told many of us that it was impossible to produce a single pipe
to make MPH (miles per hour) increases on the water. You and Rossier have both
said you found HP on the dyno but were unable to make MPG gains on the water!
Sounds like you are a bit jealous!
It also sounds to me like there is more to this story than you are willing to
admit! You through in the towel on the single pipe after I am sure beating your
heads on the wall for over a year. The 951cc engine has now been out for more
than two years AND STILL NOTHING FROM FPP! Now you say you started on the twins
months ago….. Here comes the SUMMER AGAIN! Rather than wasting your time trying
to put a HUGE hurt on your ONLY competitor. Take it like a MAN and come up with
one of your "NEW REVOLUTIONARY DESIGNED" pipes that all your HIGH-TECH
equipment and manpower at FPP should be able to produce!
Rather than proving to us that you can copy someone else's design for cheaper.
Don't bother and finish your TWIN PIPE DESIGN and release them THIS SUMMER! I
think you see already that enough people will purchase them because of the
extra horsepower and the FPP quality…..
Why make this industry smaller, we can see many manufactures feeling this
SLOWING WATERCRAFT INDUSTRY and the ads in the publications are already sparse.
We need these magazines and you need the competition………..
So, PLEASE GET BACK TO WORK on the TWINS and make up and kiss with the
competition…. The world needs competition otherwise there wouldn't be RACING!
Sheldon Willes Boat # 666
Larrysperf
NOW. People are saying price is the only thing that counts, I think not.
workmanship & the quality put into it is more important.
Just my 2 cents
Solas1420
>before the triples and if you ask me they are not worth the 2500.00
i think if you knew how to tune them properly you would not be bashing the
factory co.
Mark
With the test, did you use the factory jets? And if so, did you adjust them
at all ? I noticed that your engine had R&D F/A 's. If you do go through
with producing the pipe, this time assume that everyone will be going with
aftermarket FAs and provide proper jetting info. I think the majority of end
users will also purchase some type of flame arrestor and carb adjustment
seems to be the biggest mystery for do it yourselfers.
Also, IMO, the biggest aftermarket development this year could be an ECWI
system for the stock exhaust on the Ultra150, which as you know is
completely dry and rumored to be "soft" on bottom end.
Lets get a patent this time !!!
Mark Grant
Johnny K
JK
Ross Prevette <ros...@wave.co.nz> wrote in article
<36E12B...@wave.co.nz>...
Snkypete
manufacturers would be! I guess you forget that it was FORD that created the
assembly line process of an automobile to reduce costs and all, yes all, other
manufacturers therefore copied good ol' Henry....
Shall we step back 35 years??? 1964....Mustang is introduced. Last time I checked
Chevy didn't have a Camaro in 1964.....it took them 3 years to copy Ford's design.
Ford finally got the brains to copy Chevy with the Excursion...it only took them 30
odd years to copy the format of the suburban and now they're getting crap for it
from the wackos saying it's too big. Well hell then, let's outlaw school buses
because they're too big too (but that's a whole separate issue....).
All manufacturers have their good points as well as their bad points. The only
company that's shown any true ingenuity over the last five years is Dodge....and it
makes me sick to say that :)
Pete
Snkypete
to bash Coffman!
Scrambler wrote:
> I hate it when another company bashes another company.If you feel that you
> make a better pipe then the other guys then let the people buying the pipe
> say so and not the owner,if you feel that you have to bash the Coffman pipe
> then you must be worried about something. Do you not think that we already
> have enough of that on this group. Oh and by the way I have had your pipe
> before the triples and if you ask me they are not worth the 2500.00 I guess
> that is why everyone I have talked to that as them is getting rid of
> them.Sorry but that tells me that you need to go back to your R&D and make
> something just a little better in a singl pipe,or would that be coping the
> Coffman pipe/ Just deal with the competion is that not why you got into the
> pipe business. Do you think that you are the only one around that makes
> pipes that are any good. WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!. .If you ask me. If Coffman
> comes out with this single pipe and it produces like it is suppose to th
MCJCHC
>You buy from me I also give you woman. If the boat break she make you fill
>fine.You forget about pipe.
lol
lol
jetski junkies
>
> Sounds like it's getting nasty in here. Snooze you loose.
>
> I'm sure other companies have stole Factory Pipe's designs but I have never
> seen any of them directly admit it in an attempt to stop future sales of a
> competitor.
>
> There is no question on my mind that Factory Pipe is trying to slow down the
> sales of the Coffman XPL pipe by offering a cheaper copy. If you read
> closely, they even suggest that you wait for their pipe to come out before
> you buy.
>
> It would seem that there is a fear by Factory Pipe that all their R&D
> efforts will go to waste if everyone purchases the Coffman pipe first. You
> will not find many XPL owners switching over to a Factory Pipe once they
> have bought a Coffman pipe already.
>
> I would suggest to everyone that is considering buying a Coffman pipe to go
> ahead and do so. This pipe already has been proven and there is no telling
> the time it will take Factory Pipe to actually put out a copy and whether it
> will produce the same results.
>
> Factory Pipe is a great company. I have used many of their products in the
> past but this seems like desperation. There is no telling how low they will
> go after this one. I'm very sorry to see them taking this kind of approach.
>
> Martin Cadalora
You better believe if the Factory pipe comes out for less, Coffmans will
lower there price to be real competitive. This is actually good for the
industry. A quality part for cheaper prices. When I first got into
jetskiing, I couldn't believe the price of a pipe then, $400. I just had
a custom header made for my 225 slant 6, in my 66 Barracuda for $150.
Well I paid the $400, and have paid more since. While my custom header
would still cost me $150 to make. I still see Chevy V8 headers as low as
$59. I almost crapped all over myself when I heard what the GP triple
pipes cost!!
Perry
Phebus6959
at the same time have a pipe for the serious racers (spec 2).
Rick Surkin
XPL 951
phebu...@aol.com
Snkypete
bet that there are a few more SBC motors out there than xpl's......
Ross Liberty
W.S. O'Neal wrote:
> WOW!
>
> Was that an earthquake from up north ? Epicenter about 60 miles north of
> San Francisco ?
>
> Bill O'Neal
> WCM
>
> --
> Bill @ E-MAIL: Water...@worldnet.att.net
Ross Liberty
Thank you for your input. I am leaning towards "limited enhancement" which is to
say beter quality at a much lower price for now and come out with our twin pipes a
little later and then a new improved single pipe after that.
Question for you. . .Do you see a "moral' difference between copying a concept ie
ECWI (tm), and copying a specific pipe spec?
Thanks,
Ross
Ross Liberty
The tuning specs were different but on their 3rd try they did eventually go with a
center bleed, but of course Boyco did that in 1979. Thanks for your input.
Ross
MCJCHC wrote:
> >ps. I also invite commentary from Pam and Gary Coffman. As I said to
> >them after they copied my 550 limited pipe," There is nothing I can do
> >so I will try and be gracious, I hope you will be as gracious when the
> >shoe is on the other foot".
>
> Didnt Coffmans copy your Kawasaki 750 limited pipe also?
> If you dont use some of coffmans designs to help out your designs than somebody
> else will.
> GO FOR IT.
> later
> mcjchc
Ross Liberty
Mr. Liberty??? I looked around to see if my was here.
To be honest I have not considered it that much yet. I question if we could
sell them for $500 retail and supply a rev limiter and water injection.
maybe for $650 we could.
Ross
Chris Ellis wrote:
> Mr. Liberty,
>
> You mentioned that the spec2 would come with ECWI and a rev. limiter.
>
> Does the spec1 come with any of this, or is this price just for the
> pipe.
>
> If not how much will it cost to add the ECWI to the spec1?
>
> Thanks,
> Chris Ellis
>
> P.S. Remember do unto others as they have done unto you in the past!!!!
NASTY MIDGET
hpt sport
I thought you had a contract with another company(wonder who) and that
contract would only be valid if you did not make a 951 pipe? duh
When does factory pipes contract run out with that other company?
Will they be able too give the public a pipe in two weeks as they claim?
GJG
I don't believe any of this. Bullshit.
*** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ***
Ross Liberty
And thank all of you, even my detractors, for your input.
Regards,
Ross
Ross Liberty wrote:
Jettski
hours.
Darin
kawi dude
From: fpr...@factorypipe.com (Ross Liberty) Re: Coffman 951 pipe dyno
test
JCF951
:) Do you really think it is fair to compare 4-stroke exhaust header
technology to 2-stroke expansion chamber technology?
I can't even imagine the amount of R&D companies like Rossier, Coffmans, and
Factory Pipe invest in their exhaust products. IMO, even if Ross did decide
to pursue designing a single pipe for the 951 from scratch. Due to the laws
of physics it will probably end up resembling the Coffman pipe anyway.
Finding more H.P. in a Rotax is much easier said than done. Ever wonder why
Bombardier has the highest stock H.P. per c.c. ratio in the industry? :)
Regards,
--
Jim France (JCF951)
JFr...@execpc.com
'97.5 GSXL
jetski junkies wrote in message <36E170...@ix.netcom.com>...
>> past but this seems like desperation. There is no telling how low they
will
>> go after this one. I'm very sorry to see them taking this kind of
approach.
>>
>> Martin Cadalora
>> Ross Liberty wrote in message <36E08769...@factorypipe.com>...
Lee Bower
(Saturday).
Lee Bower
Ross Liberty wrote in message <36E18F41...@factorypipe.com>...
>Conspicuous by its absence are any comments by Pam and Gary.
>And thank all of you, even my detractors, for your input.
>
>Regards,
>Ross
>
>Ross Liberty wrote:
>
Seadooracr
Gary and Pam where down at the Elsinore race making sure there pipe worked
as it should and it did.
Oh buy the way Ross they are some really great people as I am sure you
allready know it was my first chance to have the pleasure to meet Pam
Coffman after talking to her on the phone so many times.(great meeting you
today)
Gary, Pam great job on the pipe and thanks for everything. I wish I could of
done better today but no fault of that great pipe. I guess The Mighty Mark
Trent prooved that by dominating the Vet class buy lapping everyone for the
3rd straight race.
I will keep trying.
Kevin Andrews
Your Friend
Highflier3
has been out almost two years, the best you have to offer today, right now, is
a lame statement about what you can/might doo if you can resolve your "moral
dilemma". It seems your dilemma is really how to direct people to your
product ( which is not available). I have an idea, offer a pipe for sale and
then the buyer can decide. If memory serves me correctly, your company has in
the past waited to see what comes to market and then worked at beating the
other guys pipe with a better one performance wise. Who cares if you are
copying or not, that happens to good ideas. Has having Yamaha help pay the R&D
cost on the triples made you guy's change your thinking on other products? Just
make a pipe and sell it, numbers don't mean as much as the on water
performance. Tests are only as good as the tester, which can be biased,
intentionally or not. BTW, I recently purchased the Coffman pipe(just recieved
it) and that was after talking with Robert about your offering. When I spoke
with him, mid Jan., he sounded like it would be some time before you had
anything available. A few weeks ago you guys were bashing reports about the
Coffman pipe. I guess Coffmans sales are putting pressure on you guys to do
SOMETHING. If your pipe that you might someday offer is better, I can
gaurantee you I would buy it, I dont care who makes it, but it would have to be
noticeably better that what is in my garage right now 3/6/99. You asked for
input.
Steve
jetski junkies
> will
> >> go after this one. I'm very sorry to see them taking this kind of
> approach.
> >>
> >> Martin Cadalora
> >lower there price to be real competitive. This is actually good for the
> >industry. A quality part for cheaper prices. When I first got into
> >jetskiing, I couldn't believe the price of a pipe then, $400. I just had
> >a custom header made for my 225 slant 6, in my 66 Barracuda for $150.
> >Well I paid the $400, and have paid more since. While my custom header
> >would still cost me $150 to make. I still see Chevy V8 headers as low as
> >$59. I almost crapped all over myself when I heard what the GP triple
> >pipes cost!!
> >
> >Perry
No that is not what I was saying...as usual the computer didn't phrase
it write. I was saying....when I was a newbie, I couldn't believe the
cost of a 2 stroke exhaust. I couldn't believe it, but I bought it and 4
more since. So I have spent over $2000 on exhausts. Coming from my old
Hotrod days, it kinda blew my doors off to see prices on performance
watercraft parts. Believe me I got use to it real quick. It makes me
sick though, to think I could have 4 bad to the bone Mopar HotRods, for
what I have spent in the last 10 years on Jetskis. I wasn't comparing. I
was stating my experience. There is no comparison. Just a big awakening.
Perry
OneShely
For your information Gary and Pam were at Lake Elisnore in the cold rainy
weather supporting us racers with their product! A truck was in the parking lot
with Coffmans liscense plates. So just assuming here, maybe they drove from
Ukiah and maybe they have been on the road all weekend.....
Still, I believe if you put ALL your EFFORT on finishing your twin pipes you
will still be the KING of pipe manufactures and will still be able to say....
Everybody COPIES ME and I copy NOBODY!
Sheldon Willes boat # 666
MR-HPT
with impersonating some one is dangerous staff. George HPT Sport USA
http://www.hpt-sport.com
hpt sport wrote:
> Re: Coffman 951 pipe dyno test
MR-HPT
William Vernon wrote:
> Speaking as an engineering designer for one of the big three automotive
> companies I find it hard to fathom the ethical problem. Virtually every
> part, every feature on each part of any vehicle we produce is either our
> own design idea, or a copy of the best design available from any
> competitor (within cost objectives). They operate in the same manner.
> All competitive vehicles are purchased and torn down. Every nut and
> bolt that can be removed. Everything is laid out on a table for
> analysis. Vehicle teardown information is then relayed throughout the
> organization and the best designs are copied. The Japanese are masters
> at the art of copying while adding improvement to the design. Take it
> for what it's worth but I wouldn't lose any sleep over using the Coffman
> design as a starting point for your own efforts.
MR-HPT
to Honda, they are the ones that introduce this system. Get real, by the time
patent is issued must parts become absolute. Going to court will only make
lawyers rich, this staff is reserved for bigger heats then small after market
boys. George HPT Sport USA
MR-HPT
There are no more secrets regarding tuned system. Any one with welding experience
and basic knowledge in two stroke technologies can re tune exhaust system for a
particular application. Go cart boys are light years ahead of water craft gurus.
Practically avery racer understands how to tune exhaust and induction system but
for some strange reason water craft is still in dark ages. I believe that small
group of people like's it this way. Poetry written by some and their followers do
nothing for this sport except keep average person in total darkness and dependent
on their so call wisdom. It is shame that one has to spent more money for marine
hop up than automotive racer for entire engine.
God bless competition. George HPT Sport USA
Ross Liberty
I agree Pam and Gary are great people and likewise I feel they have a good
exhaust system. These of course are not the issues presented in my post. Those
issues are:
1. Is copying a concept or design that is not patented wrong?
2. Does being copied justify copying the person who copied me?
That this issue is being raised is indicative of my positive opinion of their
new 951 pipe just as they obviously liked the 550 LTD 1/2 pipe and Variable
water injection ideas.
As Gary pointed out back then. . .nothing personal, just business.
Ross Liberty
Your friend
P550f550
Ross Liberty
Well put. I'm dancing as fast as I can! But I must confess I have not been able to
focus all my efforts on the Sea-Doo pipe as we've been working on some upcoming OE
projects, Winston cup tapered headers, and a lawsuit with some guy who claims our
side bleed 750 LTD pipe violates his 1993 patent (Coffman's next). Plus, our
target is 150 HP and I still do not believe that is possible with a single pipe.
Regards,
Ross
hpt sport
Your apron should arrive in about a week.
Hahahahahhehehe
snicker snicker hehehe
One of these days we will meat and you will not be very happy person.
Playing games with impersonating some one is dangerous staff. George HPT
Sport USA http://www.hpt-sport.com
*** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ***
moma...@my-dejanews.com
they be typical ugly like the rest of your pipes
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Mike Steinmetz
I agree completely with you. You legally can't copy another companies
product if it has a copyright on it. I believe that Coffmans does have one
on
that pipe.
Factory Pipe, Do it deferent or don't do it at all! How dare you under cut
your primary competition by making the same pipe as them and changing
less because you did not have to any R&D. You have done this before
and you loose respect with the Elder Members of the PWC Community
that know of your past deeds. Are you listening Ross?
Mike Steinmetz
Duane <d_h...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<7bqbog$ban$1...@camel18.mindspring.com>...
> I agree. I would hope that you wouldn't just copy their pipe.
> I would pay extra for a pipe that is a little bit better than just a
> copy. Put some feature on you pipe that they don't have. Use their
> pipe as a starting point and continue on from there.
> I like the idea about two pipes like you stated. One with massive
> bottom and mid range punch for closed course then one design for the
> endurance/top end racers. It sorta sounds like what you are trying to
> do.
> Duane
Mike Steinmetz
Mike Steinmetz
Duane <d_h...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<7bqbst$ban$2...@camel18.mindspring.com>...
> Please post dyno charts to the binary news group.
> Inquiring minds want to know.
> Duane
Mike Steinmetz
I own and bough a Dodge Truck Because of that.
Mike Steinmetz
Owner of a 1998 Dakota Sport V-8
All the goodies...
The barf bag is in the seat pocket in front of you ;-)
> All manufacturers have their good points as well as their bad points.
The only
> company that's shown any true ingenuity over the last five years is
Dodge....and it
> makes me sick to say that :)
>
> Pete
Mike Steinmetz
You know damn well where they are this weekend. Don't even try to put up
this
line of crap. I used to respect you more!
For those of you around the country that do not know they are at the CT
Sports
race this weekend helping out those members who bought there pipes already.
Mike Steinmetz
Ross Liberty <fpr...@factorypipe.com> wrote in article
<36E18F41...@factorypipe.com>...
> Conspicuous by its absence are any comments by Pam and Gary.
> And thank all of you, even my detractors, for your input.
>
> Regards,
> Ross
>
JET1200
the rights to that forever?
Mike
Ross Liberty
I find it very unlikely Coffman has a copyright on the 951 or any pipe. So, it
is not illegal to copy the pipe. Nor was it illegal to copy the Factory Pipe
ECWI and so he did. How different is his Water injection from the Factory Pipe
ECWI (tm) ? I did not see anybody on the NG flame Coffman when he copied the
Factory Pipe water injection, Why?
FYI, if I decide to copy his 951 pipe I will make it fit under the plastic hood
on an XPltd and the flange will have more bolts so it won't leak and I would
make it make peak power a little bit lower.
Thank you for your input, and as to past deeds, please enlighten me.
Regards,
Ross
Mike Steinmetz wrote:
> Duane & Factory Pipe,
>
> I agree completely with you. You legally can't copy another companies
> product if it has a copyright on it. I believe that Coffmans does have one
> on
> that pipe.
>
> Factory Pipe, Do it deferent or don't do it at all! How dare you under cut
> your primary competition by making the same pipe as them and changing
> less because you did not have to any R&D. You have done this before
> and you loose respect with the Elder Members of the PWC Community
> that know of your past deeds. Are you listening Ross?
>
> Mike Steinmetz
>
> Duane <d_h...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
Ross Liberty
hull. Factory Pipe is currently negotiating with Kawasaki where we can sell the
same pipes they run on their race boats to the general public. We expect pipes
to be available for the Ultra 150 and the 3 seater. Credit goes to Daren Hedlund
for the tuning spec. I believe Kawasaki is planning to make their engine
combination (porting, carbs, pipes etc.) available to the general public. Stay
tuned. . .
Best regards,
Ross
Ross Liberty
That fact was pointed out to me earlier by Lee Bower, albeit in a different
tone.
Ross
Mike Jenkins
like your changes are in the right direction. Better fit, peak power
lower in band. Maybe you could get away with stock rev limiter? Lower
price. Sounds pretty good to me. Mike
Seadooracr
like to see Ross's pipe (Twin) on Coffmans dyno and see how much HP it
makes.
Side by side Dyno racing. (fun for the 40ish)
Kevin
craigs1001 <craig...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990307213225...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
>Just a question here, I beleive someone said that Gary Coffman used to work
for
>Factory Pipe. So assuming this (if correct) Factory Pipe and Coffman must
be
>using the same style dyno. My question is, are the pipes producing the
same
>numbers on these two seperate dyno's.
>
>'Craig
Lee Bower
Ross Liberty wrote in message <36E33D3D...@factorypipe.com>...
>Now with the Pros riding Superstock boats the race pipes will fit a
production
>hull. Factory Pipe is currently negotiating with Kawasaki where we can sell
the
>same pipes they run on their race boats to the general public. We expect
pipes
>to be available for the Ultra 150 and the 3 seater. Credit goes to Daren
Hedlund
>for the tuning spec. I believe Kawasaki is planning to make their engine
>combination (porting, carbs, pipes etc.) available to the general public.
Stay
>tuned. . .
Nice pun!
>
>Best regards,
>Ross
Sluger1200
smoked the 951 coffmens pipe boat! In the 1200 class today in Florida! But I
also beat a Gp 1200 with your triples too (sorry)!
Jim Shuck
as a little 782 Rotax powerplant. What the heck does Bo Dupriest doo to
those motors? I have heard many times about the X4 hull being
fast...gee was the water pretty smooth too or ? Let us know if
possible.
Jim Shuck
Cdoopunk
troy snyder + neptune racing = 1
Simon Wallace
I think the point Ross is making is that his pipes have been copied by
someone else before, so why not copy theirs? It all comes down to
$$...
"Mike Steinmetz" <h2oc...@calweb.com> wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sim...@zip.com.au
Sydney
http://www.yamaha.com.au/marine/wb700a_model.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
craigs1001
Highflier3
>Pipe
>ECWI (tm) ? I did not see anybody on the NG flame Coffman when he copied the
>Factory Pipe water injection, Why?
Ross,
Although you originated the use of a solinoid and controller for the water
injection, I notice that the Rossier pipe on my 785 GSX is controlled with an
MSD PWM water controller, my Coffman utilizes an Micro Touch controller and
both of these are activating KIP Inc. solinoids. So that is two examples of
people copying your injection concept yet with different hardware. Since I
have never purchased any Factory Pipe Products ( yet), I am just curious what
controller you use, and if it is labeled Factory Pipe, who actually mfgs it for
you. With a history in private label manufacturing, I am all too familiar,
that at times very thin lines can be drawn from one Mfg. to the next,
especially with private labeling. Of course Charlie R. claims the idea of
limiting water flow in pipes with jetting, I dont know who really did, but
it's standard stuff now , is it not ?
As to flaming Coffman, IMO that it was your tone of several weeks ago that
they were rigging test, maybe? And then you dropped the hammer ( no pun
intended Harry :) that their product was inferior, yet you want to "copy it"
and sell it cheaper ( sounds like a cheap shot from over here ) If we will just
step aside and let FP take over. The Offshore Endurance season starts in two
weeks for me( Galveston) , I for one, don't have time to wait, you have had
almost two years, whats up with that?
Steve
BTW if you wind up getting MONSTER power from your twins, when I call to buy
one, I hope you will have mercy on me.
Simon Wallace
It's good that you asked the newsgroup for opinions... it shows that
you are concerned about support from potential customers.
As for the morality of this issue, I feel that you would be doing
nothing "wrong" by copying the pipe, particularly since as you have
stated, older pipes of yours have been copied before. I'm sure
everyone has another opinion on this.
Also, I've noticed that some posts that follow have been critical of
your support of racers - well naysayers, I do remember Factory Pipe
sponsoring the 1996 (or 97?) Australian tour - granted this doesn't
mean much to you folks in the US but it does show support at the
grassroots level.
Ross Liberty <fpr...@factorypipe.com> wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MR-HPT
MCloward
Will the pipe fit in the GSXL or GTXL hulls?????????
Matt C
W.S. O'Neal
People who are "in the know", here in the US, also know that FPP is one of
the biggest supporters of racers that there ever was. Many, many of us have
been supported very well over the years by FPP. Ross personally makes those
decisions.
I am quite sure that with the experence and resources at FPP, they will
produce an awsome exhaust system for the 951's. They have no need to copy
anyone.
Bill O'Neal
WCM
--
Bill @ E-MAIL: Water...@worldnet.att.net
Simon Wallace wrote in message <36e55e6d...@news.remarq.com>...
Ross Liberty
Gary never worked at Factory Pipe, in a past life Factory Pipe was a vendor for
Coffman so it would be more accurate to say that I worked for him. That would be
fun to run the twin pipes on Coffman's dyno. I offer here and now to let Coffman
run my twin pipes on his dyno in my presence back to back with his single pipe
and we can run his single pipe and my twins on my dyno in his presence and I
offer here and now to post the results of all four tests on this ng.
Ross
Seadooracr wrote:
> Good question I would like to see both dyno charts or better yet I would
> like to see Ross's pipe (Twin) on Coffmans dyno and see how much HP it
> makes.
> Side by side Dyno racing. (fun for the 40ish)
>
> Kevin
> craigs1001 <craig...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:19990307213225...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
Ross Liberty
The Factory Pipe ECWI (tm) system use(d) a Micro Touch controller and a KIP
solonoid valve. Funny about Charlie, for a couple years he told his customers the
ECWI was just a gimmick.
I didn't post anything about the Coffman pipe before trying it, although Robert may
have, I will admit that I was skeptical about his claim of a 26HP delta. Since
running our own tests I will say I am unable to duplicate his results with his
pipe.
Regards,
Ross
MR-HPT
system? Any one with welding experience and excess to sheet metal can and do
change power band of existing system. If that constitutes "copy right" then all
of us should retire from this business. Final decision on any production is
based on field testing and performance. And that my friends cannot be copied by
any one. I love intelligent people, freedom and competition. This excludes
morons like Harry. Piadro. Pagans and Ben. Have great day, keep locking up, soon
all problems will be gone for ever. Regards George HPT Sport USA
http://www.hpt-sport.com
Q8740
by the operator........?
ps. the coffman dyno sheet I saw was not a real dyno sheet just a graph with no
info on conditions or the baseline motor
Scott Q
bradcoon
Brad
Q8740 wrote in message <19990308110026...@ng-fq1.aol.com>...
bradcoon
MR-HPT wrote in message <36E3F173...@apex.net>...
> Have great day, keep locking up, soon
>all problems will be gone for ever. Regards George HPT Sport USA
>http://www.hpt-sport.com
George ,
Probably not a good thing to tell your potential customers to "keep locking
up". Albeit good for short term business, (repairs), It doesn't show the
reliability of your engines......Of course "all your problems will be gone
forever" if you do this.....
;)
Brad
Simon Wallace
Why do you constantly have to change the subject to suit yourself -
for example, using the subject "Coffman 951 pipe dyno test" as an
excuse to hurl abuse at others... relax for God's sake.
MR-HPT <hpts...@apex.net> wrote:
>Factory and Cofmen's never disappointed this old tuner. How dose one copy tuned
>system? Any one with welding experience and excess to sheet metal can and do
>change power band of existing system. If that constitutes "copy right" then all
>of us should retire from this business. Final decision on any production is
>based on field testing and performance. And that my friends cannot be copied by
>any one. I love intelligent people, freedom and competition. This excludes
>morons like Harry. Piadro. Pagans and Ben. Have great day, keep locking up, soon
>all problems will be gone for ever. Regards George HPT Sport USA
>http://www.hpt-sport.com
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ross Liberty
Thank you for your kind words. I really did not want this to be so much a thread
on Coffman vs. Factory Pipe as much as I hoped for a thread relating to the
moral implications of intellectual property rights. This discussion should not
be based upon if I can or cannot make money by copying Coffman's pipe, I already
know I can, it should not be about what racers I sponsor or have sponsored,
Coffman and Factory Pipe have and will continue to sponsor many riders and
support racing.
My post was intended to promote discussions about whether a persons design or
concept is intellectual property which is protected by high ethical standards,
even in the absence of a patent or copy write, or are these designs and concepts
to be considered given away with the sale of the first part? Certainly the
former will promote higher R and D investments, the latter will cause lower
purchase price for the consumers. ONE THING IS CERTAIN, THE CONSUMERS DO NOT GET
IT BOTH WAYS! Clearly Factory Pipe has the highest R and D budget in the PWC
market, ask Lee Bower, Jeff Hain or anybody that has been to my shop. This has
lead to the innovative product we've made, the same product which my competitors
have copied in the past. I hope to get this discussion away from Factory Pipe
vs. Coffman and toward a more general discussion of what is right.
Thanks again,
Ross H. Liberty
Factory Pipe
MR-HPT
JamCE wrote:
> yeah george.
>
> competition is what will keep the FPP pipe in the three figure range, not the
> $2000 range he would like.
>
> that is what he is really pissed about. so, he can go about slamming coffman as
> an inferior product and accuse them of copying his past designs, thus playing
> the "coffman is unethical" card.
>
> then, he can creep that price back up closer to where he wants it, while
> drumming the tune in the above paragraph. the funny thing is, he probably will
> and people will probably buy it.
>
> chris
>
> >Thank God for freedom and competition. George HPT Sport USA
MR-HPT
sure one can find totally unbiased person who will be willing to do it for set of
free pipes. Just don't get involved with G K'mart. Loses will out do the gains. I
guaranty it.
Regards George HPT Sport USA
Prop253
Quit talkin and give us the pipes man!!!! I know ya gotta be missing
out on some cash because Coffmans got their pipe out first, but hurry up
with the twins will ya, we need 'em now. Many have raced already and the
rest of us up north start in April so get those things ready!
Matt
WHardy1902
Uh oh, I thynk eye feal a surman cumming on.
Not Harding
It's Hardy
As in Hardy Har Har
JamCE
we had this discussion last year about the overpriced triple pipes, and i got
slammed by everybody because FPP is some kind of god in here. everybody seems
to have their head up their ass when FPP conveniently forgot to mention in
thier ads that the gp requires a port job to work with the triples.
now, coffman puts out a quality product and FPP implies it is a cheap pipe and
he can make one for $500. if that is the case, why havent they done it before
now? people have been clamoring for a pipe for the 951 for a year, and a
product that gives the public the performance of the coffman pipe would have
sold big.
i got news for you people, if coffman hadnt developed that pipe first, then
that $500 pipe would somehow become a $2000 pipe from FPP. and, we would have
heard how much r&d went into it to justify the price. ha!
coffman is the true quality company here. from reading the thread from FPP that
started all of this, it is plain to see.
chris
>On Fri, 5 Mar 1999 21:58:41 -0500, "Scrambler" <jet...@digitalexp.com>
>wrote:
>
>>have enough of that on this group. Oh and by the way I have had your pipe
>>before the triples and if you ask me they are not worth the 2500.00 I guess
>
>$2,500 for a pipe? Hell with that when I can get an entire
>Supercharger for that much! $2,500 for 10hp or so doesn't seem like
>it's remotely worth the while. $750 maybe.. but $2,500?
>
>
>
>
>
>
JamCE
Jim Shuck
what a coffman pipe will do at Elsinore this weekend. I'd suggest a far
better test that won't cost too much money either:
Send Bill O'Neal a factory pipe that is something like the coffman and
ask him to put it on an xpl and test it out. Compare it to one of his
boats with a coffman and post the results here. Then maybe for the cost
of labor he could put the coffman on the other boat and the factory pipe
back on the xpl that had the coffman and re-test and post again. That
would equalize different motors wind, water, humidity conditions, etc,
and we would know which pipe does what better if anything or if they are
identical.
Bruce Hampson (editior of Watercraft World) is planning on being at
Bill's shop soon to check out the new Sea Doo ignition and maybe this
would be a great article (sponsoring labor costs, testing, etc.) for a
Pipe Manufacturer Shootout!!! I for one would like to see it. I know
aftermarket pipes usually work better in some regards however there is
so much baloney sold in all "motor" businesses that actually decrease
overall performance, I think such an aftermarket shootout would be
enlightening to all and Bill's Watercraft Magic is the place where
bulls--t walks and performance talks!
Regards, Jim Shuck
Jim Shuck
witnessed what a coffman pipe will do at Elsinore this weekend. I'd
MR-HPT
of this business. I promote their products in many shows and avery chance I get. If you have a
problem with my personality, simply skip my post. Bog off turkey I do not care to engage in
your morality games. Take your personal accusations and stick it you know where.
GJG
W.S. O'Neal
Been there done that. You have no idea what a "pipe shootout" can turn into.
They used real bullets at the last one :)
Bill O'Neal
WCM
--
Bill @ E-MAIL: Water...@worldnet.att.net
Jim Shuck wrote in message <36E4AC9F...@home.com>...
Dan DePardo
JamCE wrote:
Hi...
> we had this discussion last year about the overpriced triple pipes, and i got
> slammed by everybody because FPP is some kind of god in here.
>
While I won't argue the fact that those triple (actually "six", three inside
of three) pipes are high $$$, I don't think the pricing is all that far out
of line with what it cost to develop and build 'em.
> everybody seems to have their head up their ass when FPP conveniently forgot
> to mention in thier ads that the gp requires a port job to work with the triples.
Huh? Maybe they didn't go into complete detail in their print ads (I don't remember),
but I *do* remember reading numerous times, in both the PWC rag tests, and when
Robert announced the introduction of those pipes "here", it was explicitly stated
that you would need port timing changes to match the pipe tuning. I also have
no doubt that anyone who contacted FP about the GP1200 pipes was told the same thing.
For instance, back on 2 FEB '98 <fpc...@factorypipe.com> wrote:
>>"AD: GP1200 Triple Pipes....This system is designed for modified and superstock
>>engines and has shown increases of 30+ horsepower on several different combinations."
Uh, "modifed" and "superstock" = "ported" the last time I checked...
A few days later, when people were talking about just bolting 'em on a relatively
stock engine <fpc...@factorypipe.com> wrote:
>>The pipes only produce about 12 horsepower on a stock engine.
That's a pretty upfront statement that you'd be wasting your $$$ without porting.
Dan "History repeats itself" DePardo
Dan DePardo
Ross Liberty wrote:
Hi Ross;
> My post was intended to promote discussions about whether a persons design or
> concept is intellectual property which is protected by high ethical standards,
> even in the absence of a patent or copy write, or are these designs and concepts
> to be considered given away with the sale of the first part?
Actually, that very same "intellectual property" topic is currently a *hot* one in
many fields, not only PWC hard parts...for instance many researchers are in the
midst of wrangling over "who owns how much of what and why".
One way the "state of the art" in engineering progresses is through taking someone
else's best shot, and modifying/redesigning it to be "better", thereby raising the
standard another notch. I'm of the opinion that *all* PWC pipe manufacturer's have
borrowed something from somebody at one time or another, and not necessarily from
others in the PWC market either. I have seen several pipe configurations that are
way too similar to be merely a coincidence...
In my opinion you should feel *no* guilt in adopting certain characteristics of
a competitor's design if the result is a better product, and *not* merely a cheap
copy, or low quality knock-off.
R+D is expensive, and in the real world anything you can do (legally) to reduce
the amount of design time required to bring a product to market is "business", and
a harsh fact of life.
An old desinger once told me: "Never draw what you can trace, never trace what
you can photocopy, and never photocopy what you can just tear out of a magazine".
I'm sure you weren't surprised to see stuff like your ECWI "copied", as I wasn't
too surprised to recently see a shop offering pipe water pressure valves identical
in function to the ones I showed you back when you were first developing the ECWI...
but at least the valves the shop is offering appear to be "better" in some ways
than mine, and not the same components from the same vendor!
If engineers never borrowed design ideas from others, we'd still be living in caves
and clacking rocks together to start fires. True innovation is uncommon, quantum leaps
in technology are rare, and most technological gains are made a little bit at a time.
I fully expect your new 951 pipe effort to be slightly better than the rest! ;~D
Dan "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" DePardo
Ross Liberty
I want to say that yours is about the most thought provoking and comprehensive post I've
seen on this NG. I will use your comments as a guide on this issue. Thank you.
I do believe Factory Pipe can best the Coffman design by making the pipe clear the XP
limited plastic tray, we can do a better job with the flange mounting/sealing. I have
another single pipe design that I want to revisit ( our target was 150 HP and we passed
over a single pipe that works about as well as the Coffman Pipe), this other pipe spec
makes peak power at a lower RPM, about 7,200. And we can make the pipe for about $500 to
$600 as their are no castings to amortize tooling for.
I believe this is the high road and I hope my competitors will remember this in the future
when Factory Pipe comes out with the next paradigm shift such as the 550 limited pipe or
ECWI (tm).
Don, again, Thanks!
Ross
Dan DePardo wrote:
> Ross Liberty wrote:
>
> Hi Ross;
>
> > My post was intended to promote discussions about whether a persons design or
> > concept is intellectual property which is protected by high ethical standards,
> > even in the absence of a patent or copy write, or are these designs and concepts
> > to be considered given away with the sale of the first part?
>
Dan DePardo
Ross Liberty wrote:
>
> Dan:
> I want to say that yours is about the most thought provoking and comprehensive post I've
> seen on this NG. I will use your comments as a guide on this issue. Thank you.
Hi Ross;
Thanks for the kind words, but I just call 'em as I see 'em.
> I do believe Factory Pipe can best the Coffman design by making the pipe clear the XP
> limited plastic tray, we can do a better job with the flange mounting/sealing.
That's exactly the kind of thing I was referring to...if your massaged redesign will
incorporate such improvements, I'd see your pipe as more of an enhanced version of a
competitor's design rather than merely a "copy". If you come right down to it, the
single XPL pipes from both companies can't help but be basically enhanced "copies" of
the OEM Rotax pipe. I wonder what the Rotax pipe designer thinks about that? ;~D
I'll bet it drives him to make it even tougher for aftermarket to out-Doo him next time!
Coffman's *could* have designed their pipe to clear the XPL tray, but they didn't, although
I'm sure they had their reasons to go with their current casting. Now it's your turn to do
it better, and the customers of both companies should *encourage* such "one-upmanship", since
the result will be better products from both companies.
> I have another single pipe design that I want to revisit ( our target was 150 HP and we passed
> over a single pipe that works about as well as the Coffman Pipe), this other pipe spec
> makes peak power at a lower RPM, about 7,200. And we can make the pipe for about $500 to
> $600 as their are no castings to amortize tooling for.
I can see why you were hesitant to market the single pipe since it didn't offer the typical
big power gain that people have grown accustomed to seeing from bolting an aftermarket pipe
onto a twin...those OEM pipes (especially the Rotax pipes) just keep getting better!
On the other hand, a cost effective $600 single pipe that provided "only" an 8-10 HP gain would
probably be more attractive to the average rec rider than a set of $800-1000 twin pipes
that pulled 5 HP more...but chances are you'd still do okay selling the twins to the "serious"
recreational guys and racers.
>I believe this is the high road and I hope my competitors will remember this in the future
>when Factory Pipe comes out with the next paradigm shift such as the 550 limited pipe or
>ECWI (tm).
Speaking of the FP ECWI™, I've heard that there is a new version of the system in the works,
one that monitors both engine RPM and engine acceleration as inputs for the injection controller?
Dan "All's fair in engineering and war" DePardo
Simon Wallace
I'm talking about. You have no idea you moron.
Ross Liberty
this is a good question which I have asked myself for years and with my
recent exposure to the inside of OEMs I believe I know the "answer".
When the OEs are designing a new engine package it is a huge project with
certain goals. Only one of these goals is power. The main goals are 1. Cost,
2. Reliability, 3. Performance (Power), 4. Drive ability, 5.NVH (Noise,
Vibration, Harshness), 6. Packaging (Engine size/Weight), 7.Service ability
and the real Killer. . .8.Time. They can't wait to go through all the
iterations required to get every last HP out of the engine. Peter from Rotax
was the project engineer on the 951 and he told me they made just a few test
pipe, less than 10, and called it good. That seems crazy to us gearheads but
to try all the iterations Factory Pipe and Coffman has, well, they would
just now be shipping the first 951 engines. And realistically Rotax would
not want the pipe(s) Coffman or Factory Pipe comes up with. For example, if
you run out of fuel in a hard turn with our Twin pipes or I suspect with
Coffman's single pipe you may well stick a piston where with the stock pipe
you may not make the same power but the engine is less likely to detonate.
That is why Gary Coffman and myself get to have fun welding mufflers instead
of flipping burgers.
Regards,
Ross
John Mastorakis wrote:
> Ross,
> In my opinion "cheap copy" or "knock-off" both imply less quality as
> well as less performance. Improve on their design and it's neither. It
> seems that it's not the same product anymore. It becomes an superior
> product, not a copy.
> I'm assuming the Coffman's, or any other pipe manufacturer feel no
> guilt about copying SeaDoo's design, and improving upon it, AND calling
> it a new product. Are you not doing the same thing? Aren't all
> aftermarket pipes an improved copy of the original equipment
> manufacturers. Build a betetr mouse trap, and I'm sure no copyright
> lawyer would contact you.
> My conscience would be clear if I indeed offerred a superior product
> at a lower cost. No consumer has ever complained a product was too
> affordable. The consumer is more loyal to his wallet than to industrial
> politics.
> One other point makes me wonder though. I'm assuming your company is
> a fraction of the size of Bombardier. With a proportional fraction of a
> budget for R&D. Why couldnt a giant like Bombardier, who even has a
> limitless test fleet, design a superior pipe? Are their engineers mere
> grads of community colleges? while you and the Coffmans hire them out of
> MIT?
> Maybe this shows that the ski manufacturers put a bigger portion of
> their net into their profit column instead of R&D. I'd love to see a
> responce to this question form the folks in Canada. Why couldn't your
> geniuses figure this out? With your profit, volume, and cash, the
> aftermarket industry ought to be non existant.
> John
Ross Liberty
John Mastorakis wrote:
> My 99 XPL and GSXL have been asking me for pipes since the dealer
> dropped em off last week. Price was the only thing stopping me with
> Coffman's pipe. For that price AND your reputation, I'll gladly
> (GLADLY) buy two.
> John
John Mastorakis
John Mastorakis
W.S. O'Neal
I'm not from Canada, but I'd like to take a shot at this.
The OEM's concentrate on building reliable pwc's that must perform well in a
wide variety of conditions, including, but not limited to, different
altitudes, hot and cold air and water temps, humidity and dry air, salt and
fresh water, for fat people and skinny people to ride.
They also need to warrant the WHOLE boat for a year, not just one part for
30-90 days.
Having said this, I believe the engineers at Rotax are "geniuses", proven by
the way that, year after year, they produce so much from so little a motor
(comparitively speaking).
The fact that it has taken almost two years for the pipe makers to find a
little more power, is a testimonal to the hard work put into the engineering
of these watercraft.
As an "experimenter" of finding power that was left on the table, I find it
much more diffcult each new model year, to find the morsels and table
scraps. The days of bolting on huge gains is not gone, but just harder to
make happen.
I, for one, enjoy the challenge, and like many others in this business, will
continue to persue it.
Bill O'Neal
WCM
--
Bill @ E-MAIL: Water...@worldnet.att.net
John Mastorakis wrote in message <36E5F13C...@optonline.net>...