Wouldn't want to be in the Loop tonight

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

Chicago public school teachers are striking (insert your own joke about the day)

https://www.yahoo.com/news/chicago-schools-close-teachers-launch-one-day-strike-054155980.html

The one-day walkout will culminate with a rush-hour gathering and march in downtown Chicago, where the union plans to close streets and disrupt traffic.

[xyzzy]

That'll win the support of their fellow Chicagoans!

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

Kinda what i was thinking.

Not getting this whole thing about "blocking traffic" as a vehicle for putting your support in the fast lane.

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

Legal and peaceful protest - fine! If they block streets send an
armored race car to mow them down like ten pins after warning first.




Hugh

[Con Reeder, unhyphenated American]

The only hope for the state of Illinois is to secede from Cook County.
-- David Burge

--
The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on my
life. ... I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90%
how I react to it. And so it is for you... we are in charge of our
attitudes. -- Charles Swindoll

[dotsla...@gmail.com]

Not sure about blocking traffic, but they've been working without a contract for almost a year and getting no traction. Think they've actually been remarkably patient.

Cheers.

[Ken Olson]

I agree. Interfering with other people's lives like that is no way to
make friends or allies. Failure to act in good faith by either party to
an agreement in such an egregious manner is wrong and should result in
personal repercussions to those responsible.

[Michael Press]

In article <3e8c8055-dd1d-4d40...@googlegroups.com>,

Why work for a year without a contract? Are they getting paid?
Not getting paid enough? Fine. Hire on somewhere in the
commercial sector where their competence will be amply rewarded.

Hugs and kisses.

--
Michael Press

[dotsla...@gmail.com]

Because they love their kids. Because they love to teach. Because they feel like they're making a difference. Because a lot of times, the world they work in is *their* world - where they grew up - and they get to effect positive change in that world.

If the district wants to fire the lot of them for a one-day strike, go for it.

Cheers.

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 05:40:10 -0700 (PDT), dotsla...@gmail.com
wrote:

Back in 1950-51 when I taught in high school the difference we might
make was more important than the dollars. I was paid $2,400 per year
and lived pretty well. We were dedicated. But I changed jobs because I
was not dedicated enough. My high school teachers were that dedicated.
We have since, generally speaking, lost that dedication.

>If the district wants to fire the lot of them for a one-day strike, go for it.

Viewed one way the teachers only option is to form gangs to use
unlawful procedures to force action. Viewed another it's not legal to
usurp the rights of others to travel on public streets. Catch 23?

It's necessary for each faction to understand the position of the
other. If the teachers are undernourished or don't have a ride to
school the money must be found. If there is no money a strike won't
create it.

So where is the middle?

If you haven't looked at every condition of Chicago affairs, how could
anyone know the answer? Is every dollar of available money being spent
on something more important than education is the question I see.

Priorororoties.

Hugh

[agavi...@gmail.com]

Why do they need a contract?

Why can't they negotiate their own contract?

[xyzzy]

On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 11:03:31 AM UTC-4, the_andr...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Why do they need a contract?
>
> Why can't they negotiate their own contract?

That's what they're doing.

[Some dued]

On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 12:34:52 AM UTC-5, Michael Press wrote:

> Why work for a year without a contract? Are they getting paid?
> Not getting paid enough? Fine. Hire on somewhere in the
> commercial sector where their competence will be amply rewarded.

What a dick response what with the insinuation that school teachers are too incompetent to work anywhere but a public school. A good number of those jobs have no "commercial sector" equivalent another thing is they may have a lot of investment towards a pension which would be pretty stupid to walk away from.

[Futbol Phan]

On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 10:03:31 AM UTC-5, the_andr...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Why do they need a contract?
>
> Why can't they negotiate their own contract?

And when the state's governor tells the world how much he values education but then won't fund it, maybe unusual negotiating tactics are appropriate.

It's actually worse at the post-secondary level-- several state universities may not have enough money to finish out the academic year:

"Gov. Bruce Rauner once again is calling for deep cuts in state funding for higher education, showing how tempting a target universities continue to be for a state desperate to get its budget under control.
The Republican proposed a 20 percent trim for the 2016-2017 fiscal year in his budget blueprint this month - a drop from a 30 percent cut he proposed last year."

Note to US of A: This is what happens when you put a billionaire businessman with no political experience at the controls of your government.

[xyzzy]

On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 1:26:52 PM UTC-4, Futbol Phan wrote:

>
> Note to US of A: This is what happens when you put a billionaire businessman with no political experience at the controls of your government.

*cough* Rick Snyder *cough*

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

It's what happens when a bunch of dumbshit liberals think the golden
goose fairy tale will last forever.

You aren't smart enough to be against liberal stupidity but I am.

Hugh

[Futbol Phan]

That too. But-- just don't drink the water...

[agavi...@gmail.com]

Negotiation - discussion aimed at reaching an agreement
They aren't negotiating. They are demanding.

[dotsla...@gmail.com]

I suspect Press would like to drive the conversation towards randian fantasies around no public schools, period.

To which my reply would just be that while I think it's totally great that better-to-do folks have nicer houses and fancier cars, I'm not ok with their children having better educational opportunities - which is the obvious and inevitable result.

Cheers.

[Con Reeder, unhyphenated American]

On 2016-04-02, Futbol Phan <sgz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 10:03:31 AM UTC-5, the_andr...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Why do they need a contract?
>>
>> Why can't they negotiate their own contract?
>
> And when the state's governor tells the world how much he values
> education but then won't fund it, maybe unusual negotiating tactics
> are appropriate.

Perhaps his opinion of "funding it" doesn't include a beachside condo
with full pay at 55, current expectation of Illinois retirees.

>
> It's actually worse at the post-secondary level-- several state
> universities may not have enough money to finish out the
> academic year:
>
> "Gov. Bruce Rauner once again is calling for deep cuts in state
> funding for higher education, showing how tempting a target
> universities continue to be for a state desperate to get its budget
> under control. The Republican proposed a 20 percent trim for the 2016-
> 2017 fiscal year in his budget blueprint this month - a drop from a 30
> percent cut he proposed last year."
>
> Note to US of A: This is what happens when you put a billionaire
> businessman with no political experience at the controls of your
> government.

You're blaming Illinois' ills on Rauner? That is a lot of chutzpah,
even for a progressive.

--
I don't buy from direct telephone or email marketers. This makes it
hard for me to find a phone company. ;>

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 12:54:36 -0700 (PDT), dotsla...@gmail.com

wrote:

>On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 10:52:27 AM UTC-5, Some dued wrote:
>> On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 12:34:52 AM UTC-5, Michael Press wrote:
>> > Why work for a year without a contract? Are they getting paid?
>> > Not getting paid enough? Fine. Hire on somewhere in the
>> > commercial sector where their competence will be amply rewarded.

>>=20
>> What a dick response what with the insinuation that school teachers are t=
>oo incompetent to work anywhere but a public school. A good number of those=
> jobs have no "commercial sector" equivalent another thing is they may have=
> a lot of investment towards a pension which would be pretty stupid to walk=
> away from.
>
>
>I suspect Press would like to drive the conversation towards randian fantas=

>ies around no public schools, period.
>

>To which my reply would just be that while I think it's totally great that =
>better-to-do folks have nicer houses and fancier cars, I'm not ok with thei=
>r children having better educational opportunities - which is the obvious a=
>nd inevitable result.
>
>Cheers.

The problem is that the people who have nicer houses and fancier cars
had more talent or took advantage of the opportunities to get there.

I worked 35 years for a major company and spent 33 years in the Naval
Reserve, subject to call, to assure a somewhat comfortable retirement.
Why should I be fined or robbed by the government to pay for those
who avoided their opportunities or were just plain worthless?

I don't envy Bill Gates - why should some absentee dad live off us and
others?

I understand that black people in the South may not be the guilty
ones.

Hugh

[Some dued]

Rich kids do have access to better educational opportunities, but there should certainly be a public system that is adequate for the bulk of our population.

[dotsla...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 7:46:53 PM UTC-5, Some dued wrote:
> Rich kids do have access to better educational opportunities, but there should certainly be a public system that is adequate for the bulk of our population.

Of course they do (didn't think I needed to call out the obvious).

The point is how much that gap would increase if they privatized the works, especially for kids who are at the economic "bottom" in our society.

I would call out that where I'm from, the education you'd get in a TAG (now likely GAT) class - within the public school systems - would be almost comparable to what you'd get at, say, Cranbrook (closest thing to an "ivy feeder" I can think of from Metro Detroit - and, in fact, we spent a lot of time at Cranbrook).

They've likely defunded the hell outta those gifted programs since, though.

Cheers.

[Some dued]

If I were mayor of a city and had the power I'd double the education budget. It'd attract families and within 10 years might end up with a population extremely desirable to employers. I wonder if it'd pay off.

[Ken Olson]

On 4/2/2016 11:24 PM, Some dued wrote:
> If I were mayor of a city and had the power I'd double the education budget. It'd attract families and within 10 years might end up with a population extremely desirable to employers. I wonder if it'd pay off.
>

That would be an interesting experiment. The other side of the problem
is what programs would be cut to offset the increase in the education
budget.

[Some dued]

I think as long as only one city did it it might pay off eventually because it might attract enough business to increase revenues and taxes. If many cities did it, there would no longer be a competitive advantage.

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 17:46:50 -0700 (PDT), Some dued
<theodo...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Rich kids do have access to better educational opportunities, but there should certainly be a public system that is adequate for the bulk of our population.

Absolutely.

The public education system was more than adequate 50 years ago. What
happened?

Hugh

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 22:16:40 -0700 (PDT), Some dued
<theodo...@gmail.com> wrote:

>I think as long as only one city did it it might pay off eventually because it might attract enough business to increase revenues and taxes. If many cities did it, there would no longer be a competitive advantage.

History says that the high wage earners would go elsewhere when they
were robbed by taxes to pay for educating a lot of dropouts and some
students. $100,000 less $15,000 is better than less $33,000.

Certainly none of them would hide earnings by sending a plane to the
Caymans every month with the cash box.

Make welfare people earn the money and be drug free and then you might
get a little help.

Hugh

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 10:24:04 PM UTC-5, Some dued wrote:
> If I were mayor of a city and had the power I'd double the education budget. It'd attract families and within 10 years might end up with a population extremely desirable to employers. I wonder if it'd pay off.

It might - otoh, depending on the state, it might not be allowed. In Wisconsin it wouldn't be - b/c we're capped on what we can voluntarily spend - b/c it would be "unfair" to those who don't live in the district - and we already use a heavy equalization equation.

I know in Texas they're limited too - but can spend heavily on non-academics - thus the football and performing arts palaces in places like Allen - and yes, those towns have grown as a result

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 7:46:53 PM UTC-5, Some dued wrote:
> Rich kids do have access to better educational opportunities, but there should certainly be a public system that is adequate for the bulk of our population.

Thing is, it isn't "money" which provides this. Yes, many top school districts have high funding - but some of the highest funding levels go to the absolutely worst districts.

So money isn't the "answer" - or at least it is down the list (talking generally here) and lack of money can certainly help - but overfunding doesn't necessarily help. Parental involvement and overall expectations of students are still the biggest factors in school success, IMO

[dotsla...@gmail.com]

This isn't to that point, but why do they keep restricting how local towns / cities / districts can make up shortfalls as the state reduces their contribution? They initially disallowed raises in property taxes to make up the shortfalls, now they're trying to further regulate when / where / how that extra revenue can be found:

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/gop-proposals-would-limit-wisconsin-school-districts-ability-to-raise/article_01dfd1b8-e594-50d8-83b7-5b1d840ef632.html

I'm going to need to read more about what you said (wrt Wisconsin) - but in spite of that, we found there to be dramatic differences in the qualities of the schools in and around Madison - enough that we moved to Oregon when the boy was turning 4 to make sure our kids would get in there and not Fitchburg.

(It's all school of choice, but competition in Fitchburg to get into either Oregon or Verona is pretty fierce, and there was no guarantee of a spot in either).

I do think what SD proposes does happen in a lot of places - thinking Metro Detroit - and does give a positive competitive edge to some of those smaller metro cities - thinking Bloomfield Hills, Northville, Plymouth VS Westland, Dearborn, Livonia.

And that does tend to shake things out - the first three tend to be mostly middle to upper-middle class, the other three lower-middle and below. When I was growing up it was the white-collar auto company workers in the first bucket, the blue-collar in the second, although I don't think that industry has quite the stranglehold on the area that it used to...

But, to be fair... a parent can make it happen for their kids. No matter what you earn, you can live in one of those better school districts. Might have to sacrifice a bit on sq footage and other expenses, but it can be done. One of the things that's great about America - if that's your priority, it can be done.

Cheers.

[dotsla...@gmail.com]

Your committing an error of logic here, CH, and arguing "dollars spent" in a vacuum, as if there are no other factors at play.

It may well be that without that high funding in the absolutely worst districts, they'd be far, far worse than they are now. That the extra money actually makes a huge difference, it just isn't magic fairy dust completely making up the gap caused by inattentive, often drug-addicted parents, poor nutrition, etc.

What you'd need are studies of otherwise near identical districts that spend differently, and what the outcomes are between those. Comparing spending in, say, Detroit VS West Bloomfield isn't going to get you there - way too many other factors at play.

And "overfunding" is a weasel word. :)

Cheers.

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Sun, 3 Apr 2016 05:52:35 -0700 (PDT), dotsla...@gmail.com
wrote:

>But, to be fair... a parent can make it happen for their kids. No matter w=
>hat you earn, you can live in one of those better school districts. Might =
>have to sacrifice a bit on sq footage and other expenses, but it can be don=
>e. One of the things that's great about America - if that's your priority,=
> it can be done.

Hallelujah!

The oldest grandson has lived in 4 states since they had a daughter.
Each move he has looked for the best schools to decide where they
would live.

Hugh

[dotsla...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, April 3, 2016 at 7:32:18 AM UTC-5, The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior wrote:

You do hit the nail squarely on the head with your last line, though.

But you can't engineer good parents... so if extra spending - providing nutritious breakfasts, etc - isn't the answer, what is?

Cheers.

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

On Sunday, April 3, 2016 at 7:52:38 AM UTC-5, dotsla...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, April 3, 2016 at 7:27:30 AM UTC-5, The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior wrote:
> > On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 10:24:04 PM UTC-5, Some dued wrote:
> > > If I were mayor of a city and had the power I'd double the education budget. It'd attract families and within 10 years might end up with a population extremely desirable to employers. I wonder if it'd pay off.
> >
> > It might - otoh, depending on the state, it might not be allowed. In Wisconsin it wouldn't be - b/c we're capped on what we can voluntarily spend - b/c it would be "unfair" to those who don't live in the district - and we already use a heavy equalization equation.
> >
> > I know in Texas they're limited too - but can spend heavily on non-academics - thus the football and performing arts palaces in places like Allen - and yes, those towns have grown as a result
>
>
> This isn't to that point, but why do they keep restricting how local towns / cities / districts can make up shortfalls as the state reduces their contribution? They initially disallowed raises in property taxes to make up the shortfalls, now they're trying to further regulate when / where / how that extra revenue can be found:
>
> http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/gop-proposals-would-limit-wisconsin-school-districts-ability-to-raise/article_01dfd1b8-e594-50d8-83b7-5b1d840ef632.html

It's about "fairness" - we do the Robin Hood funding style - and the more funds are specifically raised locally, the less that can be equalized elsewhere - and this is an issue in Milwaukee and Up North where there are a ton of small districts - those places are unlikely to be able to raise monies.

> I'm going to need to read more about what you said (wrt Wisconsin) - but in spite of that, we found there to be dramatic differences in the qualities of the schools in and around Madison - enough that we moved to Oregon when the boy was turning 4 to make sure our kids would get in there and not Fitchburg.
>
> (It's all school of choice, but competition in Fitchburg to get into either Oregon or Verona is pretty fierce, and there was no guarantee of a spot in either).
>
> I do think what SD proposes does happen in a lot of places - thinking Metro Detroit - and does give a positive competitive edge to some of those smaller metro cities - thinking Bloomfield Hills, Northville, Plymouth VS Westland, Dearborn, Livonia.
>
> And that does tend to shake things out - the first three tend to be mostly middle to upper-middle class, the other three lower-middle and below. When I was growing up it was the white-collar auto company workers in the first bucket, the blue-collar in the second, although I don't think that industry has quite the stranglehold on the area that it used to...
>
> But, to be fair... a parent can make it happen for their kids. No matter what you earn, you can live in one of those better school districts. Might have to sacrifice a bit on sq footage and other expenses, but it can be done. One of the things that's great about America - if that's your priority, it can be done.
>

Good choice. The open enrollment is nice, but the competition to leave Madison schools is fierce - our school is the #1 destination for those leaving the MSD - and the slots are heavily competed for. We've instituted "blind" lottery style acceptance to avoid any accusations of athletic recruiting (Hi, Waunakee!)

MSD, btw, is funded very, very well - why do they suck so much?

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

Sure - none of this exists in a vacuum - just like you object to my using financials, I object to the same - as if Moar Money is somehow a magic elixir promoting achievement. We both know it's not - that it is simply one of many tools - that a certain amount is needed, but beyond that, there are diminishing returns.

What is "the answer"? Sadly, I don't think there is one - there are a bazillion of them. IMO, the more important question/s is/are how to raise parental/societal expectations of student success across the board?

The boy and I were talking about this the other night - I just attended my last parent teacher conference - and saw pretty much the same other parents as always - those who are successful. Parents of kids just getting by? Nowhere to be found. My conversations with his teachers bore this out - they laugh and say "Hey Jon - I knew you'd be here - Jack's a good student, so of course you would be. Well, we got nothing to talk about so let's talk about other stuff" and we do.

How do you get parents to be more involved? How do you get parents to read to their kids or do homework if they themselves aren't able to do that? How do you build a level of expectation for kids who have nothing expected of them?

etc etc etc

[dotsla...@gmail.com]

Right - you have to pick your battles. My point is that I don't think you *can* force those parents to be "good" parents, at least not without measures that would definitely offend every libertarian bone in your body. :)

What we can do is try to make up some of the gaps with targeted programs - like giving kids that aren't likely to get a solid, nutritious breakfast to start their day, so they aren't already starting with one 'x' against them compared with their peers.

And good after-school programs to give those kids extra time with teachers and tutors. Decent summer school programs, etc.

I just think that's a lot more practical than anything you can do to address the issues you're pointing out with the parents. In fact, I've heard exactly zero ideas ever around how you'd make those parents care more, or do more, or act more appropriately in their kids best interests.

So at least there are ideas around the "spending more on school programs" piece, where there are none around the "getting parents up to snuff" piece, right?

Cheers.

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Sun, 3 Apr 2016 07:31:17 -0700 (PDT), dotsla...@gmail.com
wrote:

>So at least there are ideas around the "spending more on school programs" p=
>iece, where there are none around the "getting parents up to snuff" piece, =
>right?
>
>Cheers.

You CAN engineer good parents - most families I "know" have done it
for 300 years. Even some I don't know have - both white and black.

If throwing money at education was the answer the current generation
would all belong to MENSA - or at least know how to make change and
speak distinctly when they ask if I want fries with that.

If the parents are worthless take the kids away. Turn schools in
non-performing areas into boot camps.

Public schools are to teach the 3 Rs, phys ed, home ec, maybe Spanish
and maybe a little history. Plus teach some blue collar stuff for kids
who are not interested in white collar stuff. Cut out the free crap -
make every physically able person earn what they get - and be free of
illegal drugs. Or he can die - his choice.

Liberals have played with the problems with others money for 45 years
and "progressive" is progressively worse. Otherwise this thread would
not exist. If you could solve a problem by playing with it rape
wouldn't happen.

The private schools I know are great because they demand - and kick
you out for lack of performance. That's why they work. Many make
students wear uniforms and conform to appearance standards. People
used to dress better to clean septic tanks than a lot of school kids
nowadays. To borrow a duck, if they walk, dress and talk like scum
they must be scum.

There is no panacea and perfection is impossible. But "perform or
else" would solve a helluva lot more problems than whatever it is
we're doing now - or throwing more monet down a bottomless pit.

Hugh

[Ken Olson]

On 4/3/2016 1:16 AM, Some dued wrote:
> I think as long as only one city did it it might pay off eventually because it might attract enough business to increase revenues and taxes. If many cities did it, there would no longer be a competitive advantage.
>

What about the first year or the years that precede attraction of enough
businesses, and precede increased revenues and taxes? Something has to
give to have a balanced budget.

[Some dued]

Probably couldn't do it, but basically wondering if a short term sacrifice would result in a long term gain.
I'm sure I wouldn't be reelected :)

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

The thing is those, all those are band aid measures - they're nice additions, but they're not the guts - at least IMO

How to make parents care more? You can't really gov't wise - needs to be a societal effort from within the various communities in question.

There are some "poor" immigrants who really emphasize education - and their kids tend to do really well. Other groups, not so much so. So money and the above seems to be less of an answer than educational expectation.

And I have no idea how you make education cool in places it isn't - like Pennsyltucky Appalachia or rural northern Wisconsin or inner-city Detroit or where ever you choose.

I do know that reducing educational expectations, like they do in Madison schools, sucks ass and leads to an exodus of quality students and parents - such as you and I - and that ain't good either.

[dotsla...@gmail.com]

Curious what you're referring to when you say Madison is "reducing educational expectations"?

I just don't know that I see the mechanics or effectiveness of sort of "peer pressuring" folks to be better parents.

There's an awful lot of me me me folks in the world, CH, that only see their kids as extensions of their own ego - that goes beyond economic status of course (gosh knows what those kardashian/west kids will end up like). I don't think your or my best efforts - whatever those efforts would be (public shaming?) - are going to change that.

I guess you ask why MSD schools are bad given the extra spending (I'll need to look at what they spend vs Oregon, Verona, Monona, etc) - I see it the other way of course and wonder how much worse things would be if they didn't have extra financial help. Not going to be a lot, objectively, that'll differentiate, so it's all IMO stuff.

(And, to be fair - we look for the best for our kids, and all the outlying districts are significantly better, but MSD isn't *terrible* comparatively (compared to other major-ish cities) - ranked 5 overall at greatschools (that's my go to rating site, likely just because it's integrated with Zillow) - so better than the three metro detroit districts I mentioned earlier. For perspective, Oregon and Monona rank an 8, Verona a 7 (although it's average is reduced by the charter school there, all the public schools are 8 or better) - Middleton is a *9*...)

I've found greatschools to be pretty accurate to my experience in places I've lived - the Metro Detroit area, The Woodlands area in Texas, and here in Madison - if anyone is moving somewhere, it's a pretty great resource, and as mentioned above it shows up automatically in Zillow when you look at a home's details.

Cheers.

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

Oh geez - where to start? They softened their stance on discipline and significantly reduced AP classes are the two most prominent recent instances. The latter was particularly bad b/c it was done so that those who didn't qualify didn't "feel" bad about themselves.

> I just don't know that I see the mechanics or effectiveness of sort of "peer pressuring" folks to be better parents.

Sadly neither really do I - has to come from within, IMO

> There's an awful lot of me me me folks in the world, CH, that only see their kids as extensions of their own ego - that goes beyond economic status of course (gosh knows what those kardashian/west kids will end up like). I don't think your or my best efforts - whatever those efforts would be (public shaming?) - are going to change that.
>
> I guess you ask why MSD schools are bad given the extra spending (I'll need to look at what they spend vs Oregon, Verona, Monona, etc) - I see it the other way of course and wonder how much worse things would be if they didn't have extra financial help. Not going to be a lot, objectively, that'll differentiate, so it's all IMO stuff.
>
> (And, to be fair - we look for the best for our kids, and all the outlying districts are significantly better, but MSD isn't *terrible* comparatively (compared to other major-ish cities) - ranked 5 overall at greatschools (that's my go to rating site, likely just because it's integrated with Zillow) - so better than the three metro detroit districts I mentioned earlier. For perspective, Oregon and Monona rank an 8, Verona a 7 (although it's average is reduced by the charter school there, all the public schools are 8 or better) - Middleton is a *9*...)

They're not Milwaukee bad - but as you note, they're well behind the burbs - and frankly, given the adult population of the metro area, they shouldn't be.

You should be exactly the kind of parent whose children would attend Madison schools - and you left. That's NOT a knock on you, btw - just a sad observation.

> I've found greatschools to be pretty accurate to my experience in places I've lived - the Metro Detroit area, The Woodlands area in Texas, and here in Madison - if anyone is moving somewhere, it's a pretty great resource, and as mentioned above it shows up automatically in Zillow when you look at a home's details.
>

good to know....but I'm done now in two months....:)

[dotsla...@gmail.com]

Congrats, BTW - huge accomplishment to get those kids through and into good colleges and out into the world - especially doing the single dad thing.

(Cannot resist urge to point out you're a CheeseDude, so completely capable of meeting someone and starting the whole damn thing over - how's *that* for throwing an early morning shiver down the back?!? :) lolz).

Seriously tho - congrats man. With all this time off (and we took the kids down to outer banks for the first two weeks, but left them with the grands for this trip) - the wife and I have been talking all those sorts of "worst case" scenarios - I was telling her I just don't know how I'd balance working 50-60 a week with raising the kids without her - would get lots of support from both sides of the family, but it'd still be damn hard to do on my own.

Respect.

Cheers.

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

Thanks - and like most things in life, when it becomes your life, it becomes your life. Probably was difficult - but it was my life, so it just seemed "normal" - if that makes any sense.

I've NO doubt you'd do swimmingly well and raise a couple great kids should you ever end up in my shoes.

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Mon, 4 Apr 2016 05:25:40 -0700 (PDT), dotsla...@gmail.com
wrote:

>Congrats, BTW - huge accomplishment to get those kids through and into good=
> colleges and out into the world - especially doing the single dad thing. =
>=20

I don't understand that.

When a couple becomes parents it's their RESPONSIBILITY to "get those
kids through and into good colleges and out into the world".

Some of us feel a responsibility to help the grands and great grands
do the same if they need help.

There is nothing to congratulate - it's just what all good parents do.

I have been married 67 years and 10 months - what's a single dad?

Hugh

[dotsla...@gmail.com]

Jesus Christ, Hugh.

You know, every once in a while it's just fine NOT to drop your self-congratulatory, overblown, "I'm so much better than the rest of you" $.02 into a thread.

Cheers.

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

Have you even seen anyone project their insecurities so blatantly?

[dotsla...@gmail.com]

I haven't. To be fair, I tread that road occasionally (so many big branes with uber impressive academic / post-academic careers in this chatrum, easy to feel over-matched - sometimes I find myself arguing economics with a dude that has an econ or finance degree (I'm guessing) from freakin' UofC, that sort of thing), and it's good to see it and try to internalize a lesson.

In any case - any plans for the free time you'll suddenly find yourself with? New skills to learn, challenges to conquer, lifelong "if I only had enough time" goals to actualize, big tours on your bike, that sort of thing? My Dad did this a couple years back, then did the memorial ride last year, said it was absolutely life-changing - seems like it'd sort of be up your alley:

http://www.hokaheychallenge.com/

After a suitable period of well-deserved R&R, of course. :)

Cheers.

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

Pretty good collection of smrat peeps here, isn't there? Yourself very much included.

No idea what I'll end up doing - told the kids I'd stay in town for a year - after that tho, might end up moving somewhere - no ties to this area once they're gone.

Other than that, usual collection of deferred "things I want to do/learn" like getting a level 3 CFA designation, yoga, some travelling (going to do a motorcycle tour of New Zealand next winter), etc.

Still want to take off one fall, rent a motorhome of some sort and spend the time going to football games around the country - stop at places big and small and take it all in.

BTW - the hokahey sounds really cool - gotta check into this! Thankee

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Mon, 4 Apr 2016 08:13:00 -0700 (PDT), dotsla...@gmail.com
wrote:

Not al all. I was just wondering why you were congratulating someone
for doing what he was supposed to do.

Life is not about shacking up long enough to have kids and then toot
your own horn when they turn out okay.

And that's praiseworthy in your estimation. - wow!

Hugh

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

Spoken like a man who couldn't please a woman long enough to raise the
kids.. Now that must be insecure.

Hugh

[Michael Press]

In article <e315f3de-18a3-4098...@googlegroups.com>,

Some dued <theodo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If I were mayor of a city and had the power I'd double the education budget.

It's been tried---more than once.

--
Michael Press

[Michael Press]

In article <a68d10cf-17c8-45f3...@googlegroups.com>,

Some dued <theodo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think as long as only one city did it it might pay off eventually because it might attract enough business to increase revenues and taxes. If many cities did it, there would no longer be a competitive advantage.

"might"

--
Michael Press

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

You're so cute, Hughie

[Michael Press]

In article <43512390-6e2b-489b...@googlegroups.com>,
dotsla...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 12:34:52 AM UTC-5, Michael Press wrote:
>
> > > On Friday, April 1, 2016 at 11:45:26 AM UTC-5, The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior wrote:
> > > > Chicago public school teachers are striking (insert your own joke about the day)
> > > >
> > > > https://www.yahoo.com/news/chicago-schools-close-teachers-launch-one-day-strike-054155980.html
> > > >
> > > > The one-day walkout will culminate with a rush-hour gathering and march in downtown Chicago, where the union plans to close streets and disrupt traffic.
> > >
> > >
> > > Not sure about blocking traffic, but they've been working without a contract for almost a year and getting no traction. Think they've actually been remarkably patient.
> > >
> > > Cheers.
> >
> > Why work for a year without a contract? Are they getting paid?
> > Not getting paid enough? Fine. Hire on somewhere in the
> > commercial sector where their competence will be amply rewarded.
> >
> > Hugs and kisses.
> >
> > --
> > Michael Press
>
> Because they love their kids.

Enough to work for what they are paid. So get out the traffic,
love your kids and love the people whom you contemplate
interfering with.

> Because they love to teach. Because they feel like they're making a difference. Because a lot of times, the world they work in is *their* world - where they grew up - and they get to effect positive change in that world.

A pension plan is not an investment. It is a crap shoot.
Graduate students are put to work teaching undergraduates.
The first thing the GS learns is that he does not know
the rudiments as well as he thought. Teaching is not as
easy as people think. But why do so many public school
teachers ignore all the busted pension plans? They are
meant to be smart enough to invest their own money.

> If the district wants to fire the lot of them for a one-day strike, go for it.

Cite them for blocking traffic. Collect the fines.
Turn the money over to the schools.

> Cheers.

Hugs and kisses

--
Michael Press

[Michael Press]

In article <712208d4-1efc-43e5...@googlegroups.com>,

Some dued <theodo...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 12:34:52 AM UTC-5, Michael Press wrote:
> > Why work for a year without a contract? Are they getting paid?
> > Not getting paid enough? Fine. Hire on somewhere in the
> > commercial sector where their competence will be amply rewarded.
>

> What a dick response what with the insinuation that school teachers are too incompetent to work anywhere but a public school. A good number of those jobs have no "commercial sector" equivalent another thing is they may have a lot of investment towards a pension which would be pretty stupid to walk away from.

Your mind is closed on this matter.

--
Michael Press

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Mon, 4 Apr 2016 11:59:55 -0700 (PDT), dotsla...@gmail.com
wrote:

>I haven't.

Insecurity is when people don't mention what they have accomplished
because they might be ridiculed. It appears you two are the insecure
ones. I wouldn't tell a guy I ran a 10.2 hundred if he ran a 10 flat.

Becoming a single dad is not a major accomplishment. In fact it
appears pretty ordinary of late.

Hugh

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

On Monday, April 4, 2016 at 3:56:13 PM UTC-5, J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Apr 2016 11:59:55 -0700 (PDT), dotsla...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> >I haven't.
>

> Insecurity is when people who state they have no experience in a subject nor know anything about that subject try to make value judgments on others who do - and try to make it about themselves when it has nothing to do with them in the first place.

There - I fixed your post for you.

Back to ignoring your drivel.

Have an excellent day.

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Mon, 4 Apr 2016 14:06:06 -0700 (PDT), "The Cheesehusker, Trade
Warrior" <Iamtj...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, April 4, 2016 at 3:56:13 PM UTC-5, J. Hugh Sullivan wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Apr 2016 11:59:55 -0700 (PDT), dotsla...@gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I haven't.
>>
>> Insecurity is when people who state they have no experience in a subject nor know anything about that subject try to make value judgments on others who do - and try to make it about themselves when it has nothing to do with them in the first place.
>
>There - I fixed your post for you.

So, not being able to maintain a marriage but having some limited
success as a result is what you presume to be more secure than 67+
years of marriage with both sons, and 2 grandsons of age supporting
themselves.

I must admit that, you not knowing any better, merely doing what you
are supposed to do must look good to you. You are an outstanding judge
of mediocrity.

>Have an excellent day.

I ALWAYS have an excellent day. Good luck in your efforts.

Hugh

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

Naw, I just used to be.

Hugh

[Some dued]

> > On Saturday, April 2, 2016 at 12:34:52 AM UTC-5, Michael Press wrote:
> > > Why work for a year without a contract? Are they getting paid?
> > > Not getting paid enough? Fine. Hire on somewhere in the
> > > commercial sector where their competence will be amply rewarded.
> >
> > What a dick response what with the insinuation that school teachers are too incompetent to work anywhere but a public school. A good number of those jobs have no "commercial sector" equivalent another thing is they may have a lot of investment towards a pension which would be pretty stupid to walk away from.
>
> Your mind is closed on this matter.

Not at all, I can say this because I don't even know what the "matter" is that you are referring to, and also because I have very little true conviction about anything. A competent mathematician could probably convince me that 1+1=fish is a distinct possibility. I just read what you wrote as a slam at anyone who teaches at a public school which seemed dickish.

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

http://beingraluca.com/someone-doesnt-accept-gift-gift-belong/

[Michael Press]

In article <2dcb336a-37b2-423b...@googlegroups.com>,

You wrote "What a dick response" and now you say
you do not know what you are talking about.

--
Michael Press

[dotsla...@gmail.com]

Where did he say that? I will accept nothing less than a direct quote.

Cheers and Hugs and Kisses.

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

On Tue, 5 Apr 2016 07:43:54 -0700 (PDT), "The Cheesehusker, Trade

So YOU BECAME ANGRY with me for what I first said, not in anger, which
started a series of responses. I refer you to your own URL...

>The Buddha smiled and said, “That is correct. And it is exactly the same with your anger. If you become angry with me and I do not get insulted, then the anger falls back on you. You are then the only one who becomes unhappy, not me. All you have done is hurt yourself.”

and...

>If Someone Is Angry and Rude He Must Be Suffering

I think any loyal, responsible, honest American is suffering to some
degree, thus he is angry and/or rude. He is suffering because bleeding
heart liberals who are irresponsible fiscal imbeciles are bankrupting
this country in a failed attempt to make worthless people something
other than worthless.

I believe it irresponsible for them to applaud people who merely do
their job in a responsble manner. Of course mediocrity is the best
liberals can do but all of us are not so misfortunate or burdened by
having to walk in their shoes.

I applaud excellence - apparently you know a lot about investing. I
don't.

Let me remind you that I don't see shades of gray.

Hugh

[Some dued]

I know what I'm talking about, its the fact that striking teachers aren't automatically incompetent or lazy or taking advantage of you by not getting a public sector job.

[Michael Press]

In article <f7ef51d6-d168-4cba...@googlegroups.com>,

First learn the difference between "quote" and "quotation."
Then look for the words that I put in quotation marks for the
direct quotation. Now, since you are unable to follow the
References header I will graciously spoon-feed you the
Message-ID: <712208d4-1efc-43e5...@googlegroups.com>

--
Michael Press