No Knock, It’s a Start

[the_andr...@yahoo.com]

https://www.axios.com/breonna-taylor-rand-paul-a5aef94d-5889-498d-a4a1-39a174777076.html

[xyzzy]

the_andr...@yahoo.com <the_andr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> https://www.axios.com/breonna-taylor-rand-paul-a5aef94d-5889-498d-a4a1-39a174777076.html
>

Go Rand!

[Con Reeder, unhyphenated American]

I have to agree with this take, though it would be prudent to have
some exception capability perhaps related to national security or
threatened victims.

--
It is not true that people stop pursuing dreams
because they grow old, they grow old because they
stop pursuing dreams. -- Gabriel Garcia Marquez

[xyzzy]

Con Reeder, unhyphenated American <cons...@duxmail.com> wrote:
> On 2020-06-13, xyzzy <xyzzy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> the_andr...@yahoo.com <the_andr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> https://www.axios.com/breonna-taylor-rand-paul-a5aef94d-5889-498d-a4a1-39a174777076.html
>>>
>>
>> Go Rand!
>>
>
> I have to agree with this take, though it would be prudent to have
> some exception capability perhaps related to national security or
> threatened victims.

Breonna Taylor was killed in a no-knock raid that wasn’t even for her
house. With that kind of history of incompetence I see no reason to permit
them in any circumstances.

[Con Reeder, unhyphenated American]

On 2020-06-13, xyzzy <xyzzy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Con Reeder, unhyphenated American <cons...@duxmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2020-06-13, xyzzy <xyzzy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> the_andr...@yahoo.com <the_andr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> https://www.axios.com/breonna-taylor-rand-paul-a5aef94d-5889-498d-a4a1-39a174777076.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> Go Rand!
>>>
>>
>> I have to agree with this take, though it would be prudent to have
>> some exception capability perhaps related to national security or
>> threatened victims.
>

> Breonna Taylor was killed in a no-knock raid that wasn???t even for her

> house. With that kind of history of incompetence I see no reason to permit
> them in any circumstances.

I think that is a straw man. Some exception capaibility doesn't
mean that cases like this would even come close to being an exception.
There are many cases like Breonna Taylor, sad to say.

--
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in
overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Edison

[the_andr...@yahoo.com]

> raid that wasn’t even for her house.

Not the first instance of that sort of thing.

[Con Reeder, unhyphenated American]

On 2020-06-13, the_andr...@yahoo.com <the_andr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> raid that wasn???t even for her house.

>
> Not the first instance of that sort of thing.

No, it happens all the time which is why I totally support no
more routine no-knock warrants. And if it is for drugs, it
would be routine and no exception.

National security and hostage situations are different in
my opinion, and there should be exceptions made there.

--
That a few of us need to be more in touch with our feelings has obscured
a deep truth: many more folks need to be much less in touch with theirs.
-- Eric Weinstein

[Sherman M. Bradley]

What about ending the War on Drugs while we’re at? I’m not saying legalize or decriminalize the whole thing, but make it less of a “war”.

[Con Reeder, unhyphenated American]

On 2020-06-14, Sherman M. Bradley <J25...@protonmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, June 13, 2020 at 6:52:54 PM UTC-5, Con Reeder, unhyphenated American wrote:
>> On 2020-06-13, the_andr...@yahoo.com <the_andr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> raid that wasn???t even for her house.
>> >
>> > Not the first instance of that sort of thing.
>>
>> No, it happens all the time which is why I totally support no
>> more routine no-knock warrants. And if it is for drugs, it
>> would be routine and no exception.
>>
>> National security and hostage situations are different in
>> my opinion, and there should be exceptions made there.
>>
>> --
>> That a few of us need to be more in touch with our feelings has obscured
>> a deep truth: many more folks need to be much less in touch with theirs.
>> -- Eric Weinstein
>

> What about ending the War on Drugs while we???re at? I???m not saying

> legalize or decriminalize the whole thing, but make it less of a

> ???war???.

I'd be all for it. The problem is, that just like Head Start, there
are many many jobs associated with it. It has a constituency that will
not go away easily.

This is normal with any government program and is what gave rise
to the quote:

There is nothing so permanent as a temporary government
program.

We are going to see some of those jobs disappear at the state
and local level (it's happening in Illinois, New Jersey, and
other states now). They simply will not have the money for them
to continue.

Of course it would make sense to eliminate Head Start, the DEA,
much of the BATF, etc., but it is very hard to do.

--
There's nothing sweeter than life nor more precious than time.
-- Barney

[Sherman M. Bradley]

I’m talking about changing our policing approach to drug crime. Treat it more like white collar crime, and not attacking it with a militarized police force.

[Con Reeder, unhyphenated American]

> I???m talking about changing our policing approach to drug crime.

> Treat it more like white collar crime, and not attacking it with a
> militarized police force.

Same thing I am talking about, more or less. Easier said than done. You'd
have some very powerful congressmen and senators fighting against it
because of those constituencies. I would guess that New York, Pennsylvania,
Florida, Texas and California would lead the charge.

--
Celebrate Diversity...
except veterans, small-business owners, practicing Catholics, gun
owners, talk-radio listeners, tea-party attendees, Texans, smokers, limited-
government proponents, pro-lifers, taxpayers, NASCAR fans, Boy Scouts,
oil-company employees, secure-border advocates, capitalists, global-
warming agnostics, Cuban refugees, school-choicers.. -- Peter Kirsanow

[Sherman M. Bradley]

Less.

[Sherman M. Bradley]

Do we really need to need fully armed police officers to deal with basic traffic violations? Can we rethink that? In Hungary, they don’t pull over speeders on the highways. They just record the plate number and mail them a ticket; it seemed to work fine. They do it because the mere process of pulling someone over and parking by the highway tends to create a more dangerous situation than someone going a little bit over the speed limit. Of course, if someone is driving like it’s the Indy 500, then get them off road, but most traffic crime is minor and probably over-policed.

[Con Reeder, unhyphenated American]

>> > > Treat it more like white collar crime, and not attacking it with a
>> > > militarized police force.
>> >
>> > Same thing I am talking about, more or less.
>>
>> Less.
>
> Do we really need to need fully armed police officers to deal with
> basic traffic violations? Can we rethink that? In Hungary, they

> don???t pull over speeders on the highways. They just record the plate

> number and mail them a ticket; it seemed to work fine. They do it
> because the mere process of pulling someone over and parking by the
> highway tends to create a more dangerous situation than someone going
> a little bit over the speed limit. Of course, if someone is driving

> like it???s the Indy 500, then get them off road, but most traffic

> crime is minor and probably over-policed.

For better or worse, the police use stopping for traffic violations
as their mechanism for enforcing other offenses like DUI. I've been
stopped many times because I am a bit of a leadfoot. I get a ticket
one time out of 15. I think that's because I am obviously sober and I
take care to be pleasant and respectful to the officer.

My brother gets one about every time he gets stopped, though he gets
stopped far less than I do. I am guessing it is because he doesn't
like cops and gives them a hard time. They will not cut him a break.

--
The sun, with all those planets revolving around it and dependent on it,
can still ripen a bunch of grapes as if it had nothing else in the
universe to do. -- Galileo

[Sherman M. Bradley]

I understand the mindset, but is it the right mindset? I’m not saying we shouldn’t patrol the highways trying to identify dangerous drivers and getting them off the road. But most traffics violations aren’t that. Is it the right mindset to use every single traffic violation as an excuse to look for secondary violations, especially if that act alone creates a more dangerous situation than the minor traffic violation being committed?

[Con Reeder, unhyphenated American]

> I understand the mindset, but is it the right mindset? I???m not
> saying we shouldn???t patrol the highways trying to identify dangerous

> drivers and getting them off the road. But most traffics violations

> aren???t that. Is it the right mindset to use every single traffic

> violation as an excuse to look for secondary violations, especially if
> that act alone creates a more dangerous situation than the minor
> traffic violation being committed?

I don't know the answer, and don't pretend to. I am sure there are
experiments done with that by police departments all the time. One
presumes they try to zero in on what they think is the most effective
policy.

--
The tenor's voice is spoilt by affectation,
And for the bass, the beast can only bellow;
In fact, he had no singing education,
An ignorant, noteless, timeless, tuneless fellow. -- Lord Byron

[Tom Enright]

On Saturday, June 13, 2020 at 7:28:12 PM UTC-4, the_andr...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > raid that wasn’t even for her house.

> Not the first instance of that sort of thing.

Well, her life matters, others? Not so much.

It's dangerous for civilians, clearly, and also cops. Cop kicks-in the
door, home owner shoots cop, ends-up in jail. It's the smrat play.

-TE

“What the hell you got snipers on the roof for in a peaceful march? Even
if people loot, so what? Burn it to the ground, you know, if that’s what
it’s going to take to fix our nation.”
-Kim Olson, candidate, D Texas 24

[michael anderson]

I suspect I'm in the minority here on this in this forum, but in most circumstances no knock warrants gives the good guys an extra advantage I think. So I'm good with them. The case in question was tragic of course.

[the_andr...@yahoo.com]

> no knock warrants gives the good guys an extra advantage

Never really a founding principle of our country, for a reason. We’ve been seeing the reason play out.

[Ken Olson]

The most difficult thing is figuring out which are the bad guys.

[michael anderson]

On Sunday, June 14, 2020 at 1:17:33 PM UTC-5, the_andr...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > no knock warrants gives the good guys an extra advantage
>
> Never really a founding principle of our country, for a reason.

well sure but local depts do a lot of things that don't align with the founding principles of our country. Like I said I'm pretty sure my view is in the minority in rsfc, but my preference is that the person being served a warrant in *some* circumstances not have the advance notice of a knock.

I don't think it's appropriate for all warrants and I'm sure it's only done/asked for on a minority of warrants.

I know things aren't so black and white, but in general I'm supportive of LE and the guys executing the warrant as opposed to the guys the warrant targets(and yeah innocent until proven guilty and all....)

[michael anderson]

there are some bad apples, but in general I think LE are the good guys.

Like I've argued before in any field there are going to be a few bad apples. I saw a tv show last night about an ENT who tried to poison his pregnant gf and cause her to miscarry. He's a bad apple, but I don't think that's representative of all doctors/ents….

[the_andr...@yahoo.com]

> well sure but local depts do a lot of things that don't align with the founding principles of our country.

Which is the point here.