What would you have done? The Sutherland murder in DC

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

Reading about this horrific murder on the DC Metro...if you were a passenger in that subway, what would you have done?

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/witnesses-to-fatal-stabbing-on-d-c-metro-train-watched-it-unfold/

[michael anderson]

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 9:27:45 AM UTC-5, The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior wrote:
> Reading about this horrific murder on the DC Metro...if you were a passenger in that subway, what would you have done?
>
> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/witnesses-to-fatal-stabbing-on-d-c-metro-train-watched-it-unfold/

I posted about this in another thread and my answer was basically- most of us cant be sure about what we actually would do, but all of us should know what is the right thing to do. The fact that so many of the people on that train look back after the fact and believe they did the right thing(or it was a gray area) is very concerning....

[Google Beta User]

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 10:27:45 AM UTC-4, The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior wrote:
> Reading about this horrific murder on the DC Metro...if you were a passenger in that subway, what would you have done?
>
> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/witnesses-to-fatal-stabbing-on-d-c-metro-train-watched-it-unfold/

I had a deep debate about this on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/washingtondc/comments/3cfp1p/horrific_details_in_the_murder_of_au_grad_kevin/

In summary, the level headed consensus seems to be intervene if you have training like you're a marine or something--but otherwise the best way to help barring a significant security in numbers is to yourself not become another tragedy, and alert the relevant emergency/management/operating personnel ASAP.

Fight or flight. You just don't KNOW what you'd do unless you're in that situation. It's a terrifying thing to think about as a man, because we like to think we'd be heroes in that situation like in the movies.

[Google Beta User]

On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 10:23:52 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

> > http://www.cbsnews.com/news/witnesses-to-fatal-stabbing-on-d-c-metro-train-watched-it-unfold/
>
> I posted about this in another thread and my answer was basically- most of us cant be sure about what we actually would do, but all of us should know what is the right thing to do. The fact that so many of the people on that train look back after the fact and believe they did the right thing(or it was a gray area) is very concerning....

What's the "right thing"?

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

Yep - we'd like to think we'd intervene - esp since the attacker wasn't very big. OTOH, not having been in that exact situation, I'm not entirely positive. I have intervened before - but never with a weapon on display. OTOOH, I highly doubt I'd sit there as someone was getting stabbed to death like that - but if my kids were there that might change my perspective, but then again...

[Con Reeder, unhyphenated American]

On 2015-07-14, Google Beta User <madr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 10:27:45 AM UTC-4, The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior wrote:
>> Reading about this horrific murder on the DC Metro...if you were a passenger in that subway, what would you have done?
>>
>> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/witnesses-to-fatal-stabbing-on-d-c-metro-train-watched-it-unfold/
>

> I had a deep debate about this on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/-
> washingtondc/comments/3cfp1p/horrific_details_in_the_murder_of_au_g-

> rad_kevin/
>
> In summary, the level headed consensus seems to be intervene if you
> have training like you're a marine or something--but otherwise the
> best way to help barring a significant security in numbers is to
> yourself not become another tragedy, and alert the relevant
> emergency/management/operating personnel ASAP.
>
> Fight or flight. You just don't KNOW what you'd do unless you're in
> that situation. It's a terrifying thing to think about as a man,
> because we like to think we'd be heroes in that situation like in
> the movies.

In the winter, I might have done something, because a heavy
coat dropped over a knife is a good shield. Much harder in the
summer.

--
Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in
overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Edison

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

On Tuesday, July 14, 2015 at 7:21:54 AM UTC-5, Google Beta User wrote:

Speaking of which.....Ace just goes off about the "male" bystanders

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/357854.php

[J. Hugh Sullivan]

There are too many variables for a simple answer.

Seems like the first consideration for a person of any age is the
potential for harm to self.

At age 15 I whipped a guy with a knife. It never occurs to a teenager
that he can be hurt. At age 45 my dad told a guy to put the butcher
knife away or he would make him eat it. At age 87 if I don't have a
gun I buy an admission ticket.

The first time you face something like that you react. The second time
you sorta think about what to do - maybe for a long time.

Hugh

[michael anderson]

the right thing is to not let a young man get stabbed to death in a prolonged attack by a thin 5'2 man wielding a pocket knife.

As jon says, we can't be sure *exactly* how we would have reacted. But to not even know what the right thing to do is? Jesus....that's a sure sign of decaying values.

[michael anderson]

On Tuesday, July 14, 2015 at 7:21:54 AM UTC-5, Google Beta User wrote:
> On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 10:27:45 AM UTC-4, The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior wrote:
> > Reading about this horrific murder on the DC Metro...if you were a passenger in that subway, what would you have done?
> >
> > http://www.cbsnews.com/news/witnesses-to-fatal-stabbing-on-d-c-metro-train-watched-it-unfold/
>
> I had a deep debate about this on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/washingtondc/comments/3cfp1p/horrific_details_in_the_murder_of_au_grad_kevin/
>
> In summary, the level headed consensus seems to be intervene if you have training like you're a marine or something--but otherwise the best way to help barring a significant security in numbers is to yourself not become another tragedy,

nonsense....you're not defusing a bomb here. There is a 130 lb 5'2 guy with a POCKET KNIFE. Is that a potentially dangerous situation for a person to join the fray? Sure. But it doesn't require special martial arts or special forces type skills to lend a hand. He's already got one guy he's trying to kill with the damn pocket knife(and it took him a while of course...because he is a midget with a pocket knife. No way he is able to fend off several attackers coming at him, or even just one, with a pocket knife while he always subdues the person he is trying to kill)

As for security in numbers, you DID have them. The problem is everyone on that train was waiting for someone else to do something. Once one person stepped forward, others would follow.

The bottom line is you CANNOT wait for the police to do anything. They aren't going to save you. If they do great, but you sure as heck cant count on them. If I was being stabbed by a 5'2 guy with a pocket knife, Id sure hope that a dozen or more other healthy full grown adults wouldn't stand several feet away and watch it happen. And if I were one of the spectators, you can be sure Id do one of two things:

1) intervene and save the guys life likely, exposing myself to some degree of risk
2) stand there paralyzed by fear and be unable to join the fray even though I know it's the right thing to do


What I would NOT do is do nothing and then act like that was a reasonable and defensible choice later.

[Con Reeder, unhyphenated American]

On 2015-07-14, Google Beta User <madr...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, July 13, 2015 at 10:27:45 AM UTC-4, The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior wrote:
>> Reading about this horrific murder on the DC Metro...if you were a passenger in that subway, what would you have done?
>>
>> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/witnesses-to-fatal-stabbing-on-d-c-metro-train-watched-it-unfold/
>

> I had a deep debate about this on reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/-
> washingtondc/comments/3cfp1p/horrific_details_in_the_murder_of_au_g-

> rad_kevin/
>
> In summary, the level headed consensus seems to be intervene if you
> have training like you're a marine or something--but otherwise the
> best way to help barring a significant security in numbers is to
> yourself not become another tragedy, and alert the relevant
> emergency/management/operating personnel ASAP.
>
> Fight or flight. You just don't KNOW what you'd do unless you're in
> that situation. It's a terrifying thing to think about as a man,
> because we like to think we'd be heroes in that situation like in
> the movies.

It required a hero, and none were present (or aware soon enough).
Many heroes get hurt, but they do exist.

Would I have been one? I doubt it, because it probably requires more
awareness than I have in most situations. If I picked up on a vibe that
was problematic, I might have seen something and done something. But
that would be luck, and the victim had run out.

--
The problem with Internet quotations is that many of them
are not genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln

[Google Beta User]

On Tuesday, July 14, 2015 at 12:24:52 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

> What I would NOT do is do nothing and then act like that was a reasonable and defensible choice later.

It happened in less than 2 minutes.

I'm sure in a split second you would immediately leap towards the deranged lunatic with a knife

For better or worse, most normal humans aren't as valiant as you are--we are subject to Fight or flight. We don't KNOW what you do in that situation. On this one I'm not judging.

From Reddit:

All the armchair heroes need to back off. You were not there, this murder happen in two minutes. I was there facing another direction, when the young couple below yelled at Spires to stop, my father and I turned and said the same thing. It was realized at that moment Spires held a knife. This was one minute into to the attack on Kevin, we had thought they were fighting. I watched him kick Kevin multiple times and thrust into his chest. Then he turned onto the young man telling him to shut up, and then turning away onto us. Spires demanded my 76 year old father stand up while holding the knife to him while rifling through his pockets. It was a surreal moment in time, no amount of wishing things were different, or charging Spires was going to change the outcome. After Spires exited the train, I called 911 as did the young couple's wife. I watched him die as they tried to bring him comfort. Two minutes, 120 seconds that changed perspective on how I see the world now. Did I want to help? Hell yes, could I have been effective, hell no. 10 people on the train, eight of them so-called bystanders. The only way to stop a man with a knife is to kill him, do you think my sandals would have done that, or maybe my purse that contained my light jacket, small wallet, cellphone, and some lipstick, well do you? I was scared for my dad's life, you're right, I should have have punched him..... Not.

[The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior]

On Tuesday, July 14, 2015 at 3:00:44 PM UTC-5, Google Beta User wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 14, 2015 at 12:24:52 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:
>
> > What I would NOT do is do nothing and then act like that was a reasonable and defensible choice later.
>
> It happened in less than 2 minutes.
>
> I'm sure in a split second you would immediately leap towards the deranged lunatic with a knife
>

FWIW, I'm a bit bothered by the time line with all this. Two minutes really isn't very long - and for the initial confrontation between Spires and Sutherland to go violent, have 30-40 stabbings followed by kickings and beatings followed by advancing down the subway car to then rob the bystanders....

Seems to me that should take longer than less than 2 minutes.

[Google Beta User]

On Tuesday, July 14, 2015 at 4:17:33 PM UTC-4, The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior wrote:

> FWIW, I'm a bit bothered by the time line with all this. Two minutes really isn't very long - and for the initial confrontation between Spires and Sutherland to go violent, have 30-40 stabbings followed by kickings and beatings followed by advancing down the subway car to then rob the bystanders....
>
> Seems to me that should take longer than less than 2 minutes.

The DC metro stop that the scum criminal boarded the train on is an approx 2 minutes transit from the stop that he exited.

It did happen that fast.

[Eric Ramon]

On Tuesday, July 14, 2015 at 1:00:44 PM UTC-7, Google Beta User wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 14, 2015 at 12:24:52 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:
>
> > What I would NOT do is do nothing and then act like that was a reasonable and defensible choice later.
>
> It happened in less than 2 minutes.
>
> I'm sure in a split second you would immediately leap towards the deranged lunatic with a knife
>
> For better or worse, most normal humans aren't as valiant as you are--we are subject to Fight or flight. We don't KNOW what you do in that situation. On this one I'm not judging.
>

two headlines in today's Oregonian:

"Man who tried to stop robbery near Seattle fatally shot"

"Northeast Portland man killed defending woman, witnesses say"

[michael anderson]

On Tuesday, July 14, 2015 at 3:00:44 PM UTC-5, Google Beta User wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 14, 2015 at 12:24:52 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:
>
> > What I would NOT do is do nothing and then act like that was a reasonable and defensible choice later.
>
> It happened in less than 2 minutes.
>
> I'm sure in a split second you would immediately leap towards the deranged lunatic with a knife

you're either being lazy or dishonest here because I've already addressed this(and went out of my way to point out that I was addressing it....just to prevent comments like this)......so no, even I'm not 'sure' that's what I would have done. What I am sure of is that I know it's the right thing to do.

>
> For better or worse, most normal humans aren't as valiant as you are--we are subject to Fight or flight. We don't KNOW what you do in that situation.

duh...that's what I said.


but someone freezing in a fight or flight situation and not offering help is FAR DIFFERENT than what some of the people on the train said about their thought process afterwards(and many of the comments you allude to)....freezing and doing nothing in a flight or flight panic is one thing, but rationalizing doing nothing as the 'right' thing to do is a completely different thing and is horrible imo.