Last Minute Teams getting Rejected
ultimate7
rejecting some teams that tried to get stuff through on Wednesday (the
deadline day).
One Central Plains team in particular, had assumed that it could still
register at Sectionals as in they had in the past, and when they rushed
to get everything through on Wednesday(after finding out) the people
that registered on Wednesday weren't able to get added to the roster on
Wednesday so they couldn't compete (of course the UPA got their dues
though, we'll see if they'll be willing to refund them). The Sectional
Coordinator told them that they'd be OK since it was due to computer
problems but of course HQ decided no, since they waited too long (even
though it was before deadline). This is the same section that didn't
figure out their location until a week ago.
As usual the UPA not caring about the small teams, in the future their
will be no small teams to support the system.
rez...@gmail.com
all the small teams are going to quit playing in sectionals because it
is sooo hard to get things in 4 days before sectionals starts.
i played on a team this year that was thrown together two weeks before
sectionals and we got that shit done. sounds like the sectional
director could have made things easier or more clear, but this really
isn't that difficult.
cenzer
Byron Hicks
this is the best thing in a long time. Last minute teams showing up the
morning of sectionals are a pain in the ass. Teams know when sectionals are
going to be and many choose to wait until the last minute. Those days are
over, get your crap in a pile and move on.
Byron
<rez...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127524302.1...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
lawr...@flagstaffultimate.org
Yep, and that's all it takes to keep the sport from growing. I'm
playing for a very casual team this weekend, and it was a major pain to
get non UPA members to understand that this stuff had to be done by
wednesday, and couldn't be done the day of the tournament. Several
people that would pay the $40 at sectionals to register just aren't
going to go, and the UPA is losing out on a few more hearts, minds and
$$.
I also live in arizona, where tournaments are not that frequent,
especially in the summer and fall. I wouldn't care if I had another
opportunity to play in september - my team doesn't need to compete in
the series, and I would gladly go to another event. But that other
event doesn't exist, so we have to put up with this not so flexible
system. And not to mention the $50 fee that we'll have to pay for
adding players last week.
Of course, maybe the fall series is not designed to grow the sport of
ultimate. If that is the case, then the UPA needs to seriously
reconsider it's goals: is it to provide the best competition, or get
more people to know and enjoy ultimate?
Lawrence
FreeRo...@gmail.com
you want to breed ultimate? start coaching at your local highschool,
run a clinic for new players at summer league.
or you can sit in front of a computer and badmouth a system that is
trying to take pressure off of a volunteer staff.
-JephB
Garrett Dyer
wrote:
>As usual the UPA not caring about the small teams, in the future their
>will be no small teams to support the system.
I am *all for* the UPA telling these slackers "too late, too bad, so
sad". Everyone knows what's up...the current end-of August roster
deadline has been in place since at least 2003.
I'm willing to bet for the few thousand dollars they lose in revenue
they save themselves a tremendous amount of frustration and make it
possible to help the rest of us with those inevitable problems that
pop up just before the big day. Kudos to the UPA having the balls to
stick to their guns.
An organization doesn't need that kind of "support" anyway.
D. Smith
lawr...@flagstaffultimate.org wrote:
> Yep, and that's all it takes to keep the sport from growing. I'm
> playing for a very casual team this weekend, and it was a major pain to
> get non UPA members to understand that this stuff had to be done by
> wednesday, and couldn't be done the day of the tournament.
Then why didn't your captain go to the UPA website, print out renewal
forms for these players, have them sign, mail in one check and have the
players pay him back on Saturday of Sectionals? Or you could just tell
them "look, if you want to play at Sectionals, this shit has to be done
before Wednesday. period." I'm sure every person over the age of six
has had to meet a deadline at one point or another in their lives.
There's a difference between "casual" and "lazy".
> I also live in arizona, where tournaments are not that frequent,
> especially in the summer and fall. I wouldn't care if I had another
> opportunity to play in september - my team doesn't need to compete in
> the series, and I would gladly go to another event. But that other
> event doesn't exist, so we have to put up with this not so flexible
> system. And not to mention the $50 fee that we'll have to pay for
> adding players last week.
If you want to play, but there isnt a tournament, HOST ONE! Its really
not that hard. All you need is a watch, a schedule and a horn.
The system is quite flexible, you just need some forsight. It takes
all of 3 minutes to add 20 players to a team roster. Seriously, 3
minutes. You can even change them or delete them after you add tehm.
You can also add new people in case you forgot some. I don't know what
more flexibility you need.
You had from August 10th until September 21st to take 3 minutes and
enter a roster and you couldnt find the time? You had 16 days to enter
your roster before a late fee and another 26 days after that to enter
it before the deadline and youre pissed because you wanted 45 days to
do it instead of 42? Funny, because all 10 of the East Coast open
teams managed to get this done. And their sectionals was 2 weeks ago!
In fact, they had it done a month ago, before the early deadline. We
actually had 14 teams turn in rosters before August 26th and 4 of them
ended up not even playing at sectionals! Four teams who aren't even
playing manage to fill out a roster but your team (which had 2 extra
weeks) couldn't fill one out? Would you like Will Deaver to come to
your house and wipe your butt for you as well?
Never missing a chance to talk up my section,
Dusty Smith
East Coast Open SC
tdemet...@whww.com
there is a big benefit with online rostering b/c we do not have to hire
temporary staff to process the paper stuff. So, the practical result
will be to save the membership money. Of course, there are bugs in the
system especially on the first time. So I hope everyone can be patient
with this.
Well, I think the point is valid about online rostering not being
friendly to the casual team. And while online rostering is proving in
many ways to be a big success, one consequence is that it seems to make
it more difficult for a team that is unorganized to show up and
register the day of the tournament.
It is not a question the "UPA" not caring about small teams. That is
simply untrue. One of our primary missions is to grow the sport of
ultimate and that does not get done through teams that already exist;
growth occurs often through the small teams. The issue does however,
draw attention to the fact that the fall series has essentially two
goals: on the one hand to crown a champion, on the other, to grow the
sport and membership base. Tough to balance both objectives in one
tournament, but we have managed pretty effectively so far. Hopefully
we can more fully address this issue at our next board meeting in
January after we have time to digest the results from the first
attempt.
All of this being said, while I completely disagree with the comment
that the UPA does not care about small teams, there is some truth in
the adage "perception is reality." So, if you have concrete proposals
(or wish to look for them) on how we can modify our online rostering
system to accomodate both the casual and hypercompetitive teams, I
would welcome them. We are always looking for new board members with
different perspectives and intiatives. If you want to get involved and
make the organization more responsive to small market teams, please run
for the board, volunteer to be on a committee or at least let your
regional director know your comments.
Thanks,
Todd Demetriades
pooner
> Then why didn't your captain go to the UPA website, print out renewal
> forms for these players, have them sign, mail in one check and have the
> players pay him back on Saturday of Sectionals? Or you could just tell
> them "look, if you want to play at Sectionals, this shit has to be done
> before Wednesday. period." I'm sure every person over the age of six
> has had to meet a deadline at one point or another in their lives.
> There's a difference between "casual" and "lazy".
>
ultimate freaks. The "casual" or small teams are not yet
addicted/afflicted. These teams often sign up the breed that wake up
with by a phone call and decide they have nothing to do today, oh and
maybe they just got a paycheck, i'll go play in a frisbee tournament
with those cats i play pickup with. Hey, let's call ourselves the
Flying Lozenges, that'll be hilarious. (I'm also in the lethargic
slacker Desert section). I good captain does help, but maybe their
life doesn't quite revolve around the sport either, or maybe they've
even halfway escaped the pull.
I'm a fan of the online rostering as well, but it is still yet another
step away from the hippie grass roots, for better or for worse. And
yes hat tournaments are better for such folks, but if the upa guy here
is serious about the series intending to foster ultimate, he should
know this.
Sun's Rising on a
the morning of tournaments is a HUGE pain in the ass. For EVERY other
tournament in the country, teams are assigned weeks or months
beforehand. And yet, if you get on your shit, you can register for the
Club Series by Wednesday at midnight and still play!! Think about the
SC or TD that has to accomodate all the teams. Giving them TWO working
days is not a lot of time, but they do it.
If the uber-casual team can't get their shizzle together in time to get
signed up by the Wednesday before their Sectionals ... well dude,
that's just too bad.
ultimate7
sectionals is until the Sunday before. What about when you try to get
everything in by the deadline (late but by deadline), but you can't
because you find out that you can't register someone and add them to
the team the same day?
How about if you SC told you on Thursday that you'd be OK, so you told
your team to go to sectionals, only to then get a call on Friday saying
that you can't go? It makes putting together a team tough, especially
with younger players without a lot of money.
How should it be communicated to these teams that they need to have
stuff in by Wednesday when they've always brought there stuff to
sectionals?
codsl...@yahoo.com
Adam Tarr
> What about in the situation in which you don't even know
> where sectionals is until the Sunday before.
Did that actually change things? Were there people who said "I'll go
if it's in Champaign, but not West Lafayette"? Because it was awfully
likely it was going to be in one of those places. Naperville had
fallen through a while ago. The drive is, what, 30 minutes different
for you? Less?
> What about when you try to get everything in by the deadline
> (late but by deadline), but you can't because you find out
> that you can't register someone and add them to the team the
> same day?
I'll give you that one, that sucks.
> How about if you SC told you on Thursday that you'd be OK,
> so you told your team to go to sectionals, only to then get
> a call on Friday saying that you can't go? It makes putting
> together a team tough, especially with younger players
> without a lot of money.
Are you talking about this week, after the deadline?
This isn't going to be a yearly event, people will get it now, so I
don't think this will affect getting a team together in general.
> How should it be communicated to these teams that they need
> to have stuff in by Wednesday when they've always brought
> there stuff to sectionals?
Through the website, like it was, or through your SC. Perhaps your SC
didn't tell you, perhaps he did. It sounds like you were familiar with
the general idea, but sort of fuzzy on the details and you held off
until the last minute. I can't really say whether your SC was bad at
communicating with you or not; you haven't even made it clear which
division you're talking about.
emil...@hotmail.com
Why is everyone assuming we're talking about a slacker here just
because they tried to submit their roster the day of the deadline
instead of weeks before the deadline?
What we are talking about is a new team, or an attempt at building a
new team, dealing with a lot of things going against them and
unfortunately not a lot of support from the upa.
We're also talking about a brand new process in place for the first
time, that also relied heavily on technology - I would say both
failed. Technology obviously failed since people could not generate ids
in time to be added to the roster (which again was midnight on
Wednesday, not days before for 'slackers' and not 6 pm when the upa
is no longer there to help when there are problems). And what's the
least the upa could do to communicate a brand new process and deadline
- well the least they could actually do is leave a note on their
webpage for everyone else to look up on their own (which is what they
did). The least they should do is utilize the sectional coordinators to
not only understand the policy but also to be an extended arm of
communication to the teams in their section. This team was on the list
for months and was never once notified of the policy change, they only
happened to see a message from a local women's team the day before
the deadline.
And was the team organizer a slacker? Well you tell me - what did he
do to attempt to get a team together for the series? He posted a
message to all players in the area, advertised in local media,
craigslist.com, ran clinics for local players and brand new players,
went to every local ultimate event talking to players to try to find
players, playing/practicing since june and going to a couple of
tournaments. Assuming that sectionals was actually in the same city so
enough people would be willing to make the trip even if they didn't
expect to do great this year (hoping that at least some fun this year
could be the basis for a team in the future). Well then sectionals
moved a week before it was scheduled, now people are being asked to pay
dues and drive 6 hours round trip to play 4 other teams in one day. So
he ends up with just enough to actually have a team, but is told by the
upa, sorry I know the deadline was Wednesday night but it's your own
fault you didn't know the process and couldn't get the system to
work in time.
And now how does that team stand, well I don't see any of them
wanting to play again next year and that organizer that put in all this
work? I'm sure you can guess the chances of him wanting to go through
this again. My point is not 'let's feel sorry for these guys', it's the
upa is not acting in it's own best interests, the interests of the
sport, or the players. I hope they'll reconsider policies that harm new
teams and growth, then maybe the section that has fallen to 4 teams
from 20 in four years will stop the downward trend and start to grow
again.
Garrett Dyer
>We're also talking about a brand new process in place for the first
>time, that also relied heavily on technology - I would say both
>failed.
I loved it!
It definitely made my job as a captain a lot easier. Not only did I
know my roster was on time (taking out the uncertainty of the USPS),
but also whether each player had their roster and dues taken care of.
And as a coordinator, it was the best thing since sliced bread. I was
able to take care of running the tournament so that the competition
went off as it should, and didn't have to do a ton of paperwork,
making the rounds start late, etc. This was 1000 times better than
when I did it back in '99 when teams could turn in rosters at
sectionals...I'd never go through that circus again. It actually
makes volunteering for the job not such a painful experience!
>And was the team organizer a slacker?
Usually isn't...it's typically his/her teammates that are the
slackers.
>My point is not 'let's feel sorry for these guys', it's the
>upa is not acting in it's own best interests, the interests of the
>sport, or the players. I hope they'll reconsider policies that harm new
>teams and growth
Actually, my thought is totally opposite: I feel sorry for this team
since their sectional was moved up a week, but I think the UPA *is*
acting in its own best interest. It seems that's the part you're
taking umbrage with...the fact that they didn't act in the *team's*
best interest.
I don't agree that an organization that has as many people to make
happy as the UPA needs to worry about players/teams that try to
register their players at the hard cap. And if they don't, those sort
of problems will magically disappear...
tdemet...@whww.com
get hammered out, what else could the UPA do for your region to
increase the number of teams? We are definitely trying to figure out a
way to integrate the leagues more effectively and provide them with the
necessary tools. But I gather your concern is more related to club
teams. What do you think has been the cause of the decline? I have
heard a few hypotheses in regions that are shrinking (i.e. impact of
coed, retirement of old guard, change in culture, etc. . . ), but it is
difficult to get anything but anecdotal evidence.
Again, we are always looking for ways to help the existing membership,
to grow the sport and for new board members, volunteers, etc. . .
Regarding the online rostering, I don't think the system as a whole
failed, but it sounds as if rosters that were submitted that last day
may not have registered. This is an issue the board and staff will
address in the coming months. So please know that these problems are
not being ignored!
thanks,
td
Larry D. Hols
> And now how does that team stand, well I don't see any of them
> wanting to play again next year
Too bad.
> and that organizer that put in all this
> work? I'm sure you can guess the chances of him wanting to go through
> this again.
Too bad.
> My point is not 'let's feel sorry for these guys', it's the
> upa is not acting in it's own best interests, the interests of the
> sport, or the players.
Quite the contrary--the UPA is acting in the best interests of all
involved.
> I hope they'll reconsider policies that harm new
> teams and growth, then maybe the section that has fallen to 4 teams
> from 20 in four years will stop the downward trend and start to grow
> again.
The UPA is not responsible for that decline in participation of the
section. The UPA has no obligation to hold everybody's hand to get them
across streets, tuck them into bed, or to make certain they submit their
materials in a timely fashion. The process is not difficult and the UPA
is acting to make it as simple as possible with deadlines as late as
possible.
Larry
Gravy
Sectional Coordinator was pretty terrible at doing his job.
abe
Larry D. Hols wrote:
> > I hope they'll reconsider policies that harm new
> > teams and growth, then maybe the section that has fallen to 4 teams
> > from 20 in four years will stop the downward trend and start to grow
> > again.
>
> The UPA is not responsible for that decline in participation of the
> section. The UPA has no obligation to hold everybody's hand to get them
> across streets, tuck them into bed, or to make certain they submit their
> materials in a timely fashion. The process is not difficult and the UPA
> is acting to make it as simple as possible with deadlines as late as
> possible.
>
>
> Larry
$40 a person for one tourney with no expectations of advancing...I'd
hope that the UPA would want to hold their hands and tuck them into
bed.
If the UPA wants to have a hard deadline before the day of the tourney,
that's fine, but when a team registers 10-15 players before the
deadline and then doesn't allow them to be added to the roster, that
doesn't seem like hand holding...it just seems wrong.
Is Naperville vs. West Lafayette vs. Champaign that big of a deal? No,
but it's another piece of uncertainty that makes it difficult for new
players/new teams to get organized.
At the least, the UPA should refund the money of the players who
registered and were not allowed to play...but letting them play would
be a much better option.
the....@gmail.com
1. Location: sectionals was going to be in chicago this year at the
tune-up fields but they wanted 4000 for them, and there was no way we
could cover with our small sectionals field. Since they changed the
price, i had to change the location last minute rather than make teams
pay 300 for sectionals. Purdue and U of I both got fields last minute
and we decided to play at U of I. Should the site have been announced
earlier? sure in an ideal world. I was actually trying to get
sectionals on some decent fields rather than settle for anything we
could get.
2. The UPA: i got an e-mail from jon at 11.55 the night of thh deadline
saying the rostering system was broken. i assumed he was right, and
told them they would be in. i realized after the fact that i should
have called the upa first. i called the rc and he told me that the
captain would need to call the upa the next morning and sort it out.
friday morning the captain called the UPA and they informed that they
would look into it. after talking to the upa, they made the call that
the eam would not be allowed to play as they did not have enough
players registered. the team appealed and after further investigation
they decided to allow the team to play. the primary reason for this
was that i said they could play on thursday and the UPA wants to stand
behind their coordinators. the team decided not too play after all.
What went wrong here:
1. Location needed to be set earlier.
2. I need to hold the hands of these adults to get them to register
before deadlines that were communicated to them.
3. I should have talked to the UPA before making any decision about a
team's eligibility.
Final thoughts:
- after 8 years of volunteering for the UPA, i have had enough. this
is prolly a good thing for this section.
- please stop posting anonymously if you are going to call specific
people out. have the courage to put your name on the post.
-phil broering
CP Open sectional coordinator
Adam Tarr
> the team appealed and after further investigation
> they decided to allow the team to play. the primary reason
> for this was that i said they could play on thursday and the
> UPA wants to stand behind their coordinators. the team
> decided not too play after all.
Thanks for the clarification Phil. This sort of begs the question of
what exactly they were complaining about. They registered on Wednesday
night and they were told they could play on Friday. That's a
reasonable turnaround time in my opinion.
> - please stop posting anonymously if you are going to call
> specific people out. have the courage to put your name on
> the post.
Not sure who you're referring to here - the aliases on this thread are
mostly well-known. I'm pretty sure "ultimate7" plays for Mr.
Briefcase, and "Gravy" of course plays at IU.
the....@gmail.com
whatever people want to say. I just don't want people disparaging the
UPA when the UPA was reasonable and well thought out in all of its
actions.
-pfil
Joe Buck
> What went wrong here:
>
> 1. Location needed to be set earlier.
> 2. I need to hold the hands of these adults to get them to register
> before deadlines that were communicated to them.
> 3. I should have talked to the UPA before making any decision about a
> team's eligibility.
>
> Final thoughts:
> - after 8 years of volunteering for the UPA, i have had enough. this
> is prolly a good thing for this section.
I was also a sectionals coordinator.
Our site was set roughly 3 months before the event. It was in a
central location to the entire section, but as the date got closer,
some of the southern teams dropped out, or never materialized like they
had in the past. So I got bitched at for having decided on the fields
too early, and making people drive farther than they wanted. No matter
what you do, somebody will be pissed.
I had two teams register 5 days before the tournament, they both got
in, and things went off without a hitch, but trying to run a decent
tournament when you have teams showing up out of nowhere is impossible.
Having three days to finalize your brackets/fields/# of
portopots/ammount of water/ etc is great. I don't know what I would do
if I had to replan a tournament for extra teams if they showed up in
the morning.
The early computer registration is a big help.
ultimate7
you did anything wrong, just saying that last minute field change
certainly makes it difficult to a team, and the UPA needs to consider
these things. I do think that you should have notified the teams that
they needed to register in advance this year (I really have no idea if
you did this or not), but really the UPA should have told you that this
needed to be done.
2) At 5 PM Friday, HQ made the decision that the team couldn't play.
Captain called people en route or some already there that UPA was not
letting them play, people came back. At 8:30, UPA called (thanks to
help from local rep) and change decision. At this point is was just
late, some people had already driven 5 hours that day, captain decided
that it was too late.
Gary
jahe...@gmail.com
mentioned this important rule change. why was there a rumor on rsd,
sept 8, that sectionals would definitely be in champaign and the
official announcement from you didn't come until sept 16th.
phil are you sure you don't want to be sc next year? maybe with a
little more focus you can get it down to 2 teams at sectionals.
-john hewitt
e.a.
4. My dog ate my computer.
emil...@hotmail.com
Interesting clarification but not exactly accurate -
The team appealed and after further investigation was flat out rejected
by the director of championships, or whatever his title is.
it had nothing to do with wanting to support a decision made by the sc
- that was stated up front and if that was going to affect the decision
it should have before the 'final' word came at 5pm the night before
sectionals that they could NOT play.
Hmm, none of the facts changed so what could have caused this change of
heart?
oh yeah, being contacted by a well respected and elite player who
happens to actually care about the growth of this sport.
so your average joe ultimate player and team organizer gets no respect,
and the upa proves once again that your voice depends on your
connections.
tdemet...@whww.com
about growing the sport, as you perceive it, what are the UPA's
priorities? Do you actually believe the UPA wants to discourage
growth? That is the Board's top priority.
Did you sit in on ANY discussion regarding the decisions that were made
to prove your point? Probably not. It is amazing what things are
stated as fact when they are only based on supposition and innuendo.
Obviously, this is my personal opinion and not shared by the board, but
that post really lacks any attempt at understanding the full picture.
Todd Demetriades
Sun's Rising on a
2004 -- UCSB gets DQ'd from nationals. Joe Seidler, the most vocal
booster of the Black Tide and the Condors and a UPA Board member (!!!)
can't even do anything.
Have you ever read through any rules or guidelines or manuals produced
by the UPA? GREAT pains are made to ensure that every player is treated
equally, that every region gets its fair shot, that no team has an
undeserved edge in any competition. Your voice does not depend on your
connections. This is not the Bush administration.
This is not 'Nam. This is Ultimate. There are rules.
timmy930
Here is a solution: volunteer. Clearly, this sc sucked. I am going to
go out on a limb and say the only reason he is doing it is b/c no one
else wanted to. Now, maybe the sc should still do a good job, we can
debate that point later. But if you are going to fight for the little
guys, why not step up to the plate? I mean, you guys are obviously
experts in the UPA screwing the little guys, so why no get involved and
do something about it? Or get one of your elite friends to do it.
Because clearly that is the only solution.
And posting to rsd is not doing anything about it.
There are some sc's that go above and beyond the call of duty. They
recruit teams. They get big field sites with multiple divisions so
eveyone can play. They go into the summer leagues. I am sure the UPA
wishes that they could have all their sc's like this. But you know
what, they don't. And sometimes they get stuck with someone to fill
the position. Why don't you be this person? Why don't you help a
section on the decline rebuild? It could be the proudest achievement
of your life.
Sometimes it goes better then expected. Sometimes a team who does not
read Rostering 101 on the upa website and who does not have many
experienced players on the team gets screwed.
At the very least, why don't you help this captain out yourself? I
mean you know a ton about the situation. You know that he was working
his butt off to get new players. But you never offered help. You
never said "Hey the deadline is coming up for sectionals"? Or did you
just sit on this, hoping he would get screwed so you could complain
about the UPA on rsd? Why not take a minute out of your schedule in
August or early September to help this dude out?
Look, crappy situations like this happen in all sports and in all
organizations. The UPA does a pretty good job considering the # of
volunteers that it needs to pull the series off. And there are not
much benefits to this (Phil was already rc in the college series, so
really he gets nothing in return for being the sc. I mean, even Phil
deserves something).
The question is are you going to help the UPA out or are you going to
sit back and wait for this to happen again so you can whine about it?
It appears there will be the Central Plains SC job open next year. I
think one of you should take it.
TIM
golden dewey rules.
Garrett Dyer
>The team appealed and after further investigation was flat out rejected
>by the director of championships, or whatever his title is.
So why was the appeal not lodged on Thursday?