Holyfield and Steroids
Mark Brown
borderline heavyweight/light heavyweight to a very muscular heavyweight.
I have always assumed that he used steroids to put on the extra muscle. In
addition, Holyfield's chin and ears have that exaggerated shape that is
often associated with steroids.
Foreman often jokes about Holyfield even having muscles in his toes. I
think the steroid use by Holyfield is obvious to Foreman too.
I would like to know what blood tests the rating boards do of licensed
fighters to test for steroids and with what regularity do they perform any
such tests ?
Has Holyfield ever been asked the question:
"have you ever used steroids ? "
Mark Brown
Mike Haught
Mark Brown wrote in message <6vc37i$mbn$1...@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>...
>Some time around 6 years ago, Evander Holyfield made the transition from a
>borderline heavyweight/light heavyweight to a very muscular heavyweight.
>I have always assumed that he used steroids to put on the extra muscle. In
>addition, Holyfield's chin and ears have that exaggerated shape that is
>often associated with steroids.
>
far anymore though.
-mwh
IceBall 69
>>Some time around 6 years ago, Evander Holyfield made the transition from a
>>borderline heavyweight/light heavyweight to a very muscular heavyweight.
>>I have always assumed that he used steroids to put on the extra muscle. In
>>addition, Holyfield's chin and ears have that exaggerated shape that is
>>often associated with steroids.
>>
>He has always had the exaggerated chin. I don't think his ears jut out too
>far anymore though.
>
>
Steroids make your chin jut out?
Jay L.
Robert Phillips
Mike Haught wrote:
> Mark Brown wrote in message <6vc37i$mbn$1...@wbnws01.ne.highway1.com>...
> -mwh
So "Mark Brown" is the new resident troll I've heard so much about? Geez, take
a couple of days off and an entirely new crop o' weeds comes up...
Pie
Mark Brown
world too.
Mark Brown
Don MacAngus
> >He has always had the exaggerated chin. I don't think his ears jut out too
> >far anymore though.
>
> Steroids make your chin jut out?
Abuse of anabolic steroids reportedly can cause the chin to elongate, as well as
the brows to become heavy, and the breasts to swell.
--
Big D
Don MacAngus, Salt Lake City, Utah
http://home.earthlink.net/~bigdatsc/ Remove "SPAM" to email me.
Don MacAngus
> Some time around 6 years ago, Evander Holyfield made the transition from a
> borderline heavyweight/light heavyweight to a very muscular heavyweight.
Very muscular, but not very heavy.
> I have always assumed that he used steroids to put on the extra muscle.
Why? He didn't gain all that much weight. He was fighting as a Cruiserweight,
not as a Lightheavy. His walking around weight was probably already at or over
the Heavyweight limit. All he had to do was begin training to gain weight,
rather than lose it, as he did for the other division.
> In addition, Holyfield's chin and ears have that exaggerated shape that is
> often associated with steroids.
Maybe so, but this would require a comparisson to their appearance before he
gained his weight. I don't think they have changed much.
> Foreman often jokes about Holyfield even having muscles in his toes. I think
> the steroid use by Holyfield is obvious to Foreman too.
George might have an opinion about it, but when you look at George's experience
in this area, I don't think he knows anything about the subject. Certainly not
enough to make an informed comment about it.
> I would like to know what blood tests the rating boards do of licensed
> fighters to test for steroids and with what regularity do they perform any
> such tests?
Hard to say. Every state in the union has the right to regulate boxing in
whatever way they see fit. Some may test for steroids, others may not. Even
if they did, steroids are a training drug, not a day of competition drug, and
they may not be present at the time of the test.
> Has Holyfield ever been asked the question: "have you ever used steroids?"
Yes he has. He has always said that he does not use them. He apparently has
taken a lot of training tips from Mr. Olympia, Lee Haney, and swears by the
product "Creatine."
By the way, do you work for the boxing industry?
Mark Brown
to rely more on steroids in his body to survive fighting all those wild
animals in the wild, back when we were just a few steps from the primordial
soup.
Holyfield clearly appears to be cheating to obtain each step of his success.
He was caught stealing at the Olympics in 1984 and was disqualified.
But that has not deterred him. And with corrupt referees like Mills Lane
and co-conspirators in the corrupt sports press, nowadays he is escaping any
kind of penalty or even scrutiny.
Mark Brown
Mark Brown
Cruiserweight,
>not as a Lightheavy. His walking around weight was probably already at or
over
>the Heavyweight limit. All he had to do was begin training to gain weight,
>rather than lose it, as he did for the other division.
An unnaturally huge proportion of Holyfield's weight is muscle based. Some
people have the capacity to put on more fat than others when they are not in
training. Someone's walking around weight does not imply anything about
their strength to fight in the ring. The two main criteria are bone
structure weight, and muscle weight.
>Maybe so, but this would require a comparisson to their appearance before
he
>gained his weight. I don't think they have changed much.
I remember watching him get disqualified for fouling an opponent in the 1984
Olympics. I do not recall thinking he looked like an abuser of steroids at
that time.
>George might have an opinion about it, but when you look at George's
experience
>in this area, I don't think he knows anything about the subject. Certainly
not
>enough to make an informed comment about it.
Foreman is naturally a big guy and comes from an era before steroids became
even suspected in the boxing world. But we have seen numerous football
players with that chin and weightlifters like Schwarzenegger with that chin.
And Schwarzenegger has admitted to use of steroids.
>Hard to say. Every state in the union has the right to regulate boxing in
>whatever way they see fit. Some may test for steroids, others may not.
Even
>if they did, steroids are a training drug, not a day of competition drug,
and
>they may not be present at the time of the test.
Right, and that is why they need to test licensed fighters year round, at
least 3 times a year. No one in boxing should be allowed an unnatural
advantage over an opponent.
>> Has Holyfield ever been asked the question: "have you ever used
steroids?"
>
>Yes he has. He has always said that he does not use them. He apparently
has
>taken a lot of training tips from Mr. Olympia, Lee Haney, and swears by the
>product "Creatine."
The fact is that many bodybuilders use steroids. It seems that it is about
time Creatine use was banned. It seems to be a reliable excuse for people
to hide behind, when they really are using steroids. People I have talked
claim that there is no way that creatine assist training in the huge
proportions that baseball player McGuire or Holyfield would have the public
believe. We need to know for sure that they are not taking steroids.
That will require multiple tests for steroids of all fighters, year round.
I think the boxing industry could easily afford this.
>By the way, do you work for the boxing industry?
No, I never have worked in the boxing industry.
Mark Brown
Robert Phillips
Mark Brown wrote:
> Essentially, they make you look more like cro-magnon man. Back then man had
> to rely more on steroids in his body to survive fighting all those wild
> animals in the wild,
Oh man, I like this guy! This is better than watching rasslin'!
(Should anyone bother to point out that the difference between Cro-Magnon and
"modern" man is cultural and not biological? Nahh...)
Pie
Mark Brown
desktop:
"Cro-Magnon, early modern human beings, representatives of Homo sapiens, who
lived in western and southern Europe during the last glacial age. The
physical characteristics that distinguish the Cro-Magnons from the
Neandertals are a high forehead and a well-defined chin. Artifacts show that
they had mastered the art of fashioning instruments from stone, bone, and
ivory. Cro-Magnons appear to be the ancestors of the peoples of southern and
western Europe."
If I look further maybe I could find a picture for you.
Mark Brown
Robert Phillips wrote in message <361B7C95...@concentric.net>...
Don MacAngus
[Opinionated tripe snipped]
> Holyfield clearly appears to be cheating to obtain each step of his success.
Based on what?
> He was caught stealing at the Olympics in 1984 and was disqualified.
Not true. He was the victim of poor officiating, something the referee admitted
to immediately after. He was winning the fight (IMO) when suddenly the ref
called for a break. Customarily, when calling for a break, the ref is supposed
to step in, shout "Stop!," and then separate the boxers with his hands.
Instead, he called for the break whole out of position, standing behind the
boxers, and was not present to separate them. The other boxer seemed to hear
the call, and stopped fighting. Evander claimed he did not, and hit him on the
jaw, knocking him down for the count. Keep in mind that one of the cardinal
rules of boxing is to protect yourself at all times. The fight was over,
because the opponent had suffered a concussion, and could not be allowed to
continue. As a result, they agreed to give Holyfield the bronze.
> But that has not deterred him.
Nor should it have. He should have won the gold, and would have if not for the
bungle of the ref.
> And with corrupt referees like Mills Lane and co-conspirators in the corrupt
> sports press, nowadays he is escaping any kind of penalty or even scrutiny.
Mills Lane is a Nevada Circuit Court Judge, and someone I consider completely
above reproach.
Don MacAngus
> >Very muscular, but not very heavy.
> >Why? He didn't gain all that much weight. He was fighting as a
> Cruiserweight,
> >not as a Lightheavy. His walking around weight was probably already at or
> over
> >the Heavyweight limit. All he had to do was begin training to gain weight,
> >rather than lose it, as he did for the other division.
>
> An unnaturally huge proportion of Holyfield's weight is muscle based.
Unnatural for some, but not for a bodybuilder.
> Some people have the capacity to put on more fat than others when they are not
> in
> training. Someone's walking around weight does not imply anything about their
> strength to fight in the ring. The two main criteria are bone structure
> weight, and muscle weight.
Ok. What does this have to do with steroids?
> >Maybe so, but this would require a comparisson to their appearance before he
> >gained his weight. I don't think they have changed much.
>
> I remember watching him get disqualified for fouling an opponent in the 1984
> Olympics. I do not recall thinking he looked like an abuser of steroids at
> that time.
Then we agree.
> >George might have an opinion about it, but when you look at George's
> experience
> >in this area, I don't think he knows anything about the subject. Certainly
> not
> >enough to make an informed comment about it.
>
> Foreman is naturally a big guy and comes from an era before steroids became
> even suspected in the boxing world. But we have seen numerous football
> players with that chin and weightlifters like Schwarzenegger with that chin.
> And Schwarzenegger has admitted to use of steroids.
Indeed he has, but he does not have "that chin." Name a football player with
"that chin."
> >Hard to say. Every state in the union has the right to regulate boxing in
> >whatever way they see fit. Some may test for steroids, others may not. Even
> >if they did, steroids are a training drug, not a day of competition drug, and
>
> >they may not be present at the time of the test.
>
> Right, and that is why they need to test licensed fighters year round, at
> least 3 times a year. No one in boxing should be allowed an unnatural
> advantage over an opponent.
Trouble is, some fighters don't even fight three times a year. And how are you
going to get all 50 states (at least those who allow boxing at all) to agree on
the rules?
> >> Has Holyfield ever been asked the question: "have you ever used steroids?"
>
> >
> >Yes he has. He has always said that he does not use them. He apparently has
>
> >taken a lot of training tips from Mr. Olympia, Lee Haney, and swears by the
> >product "Creatine."
>
> The fact is that many bodybuilders use steroids.
This is not a fact. This is your opinion. That's ok. I have opinions too.
But let's try to keep them seperate, shall we?
> It seems that it is about time Creatine use was banned. It seems to be a
> reliable excuse for people to hide behind, when they really are using
> steroids.
Creatine isn't even a drug. It's a food supplement extracted from meat
products. You might as well try to bad sugar or salt. Both of these fit closer
to the description of a "drug."
> People I have talked claim that there is no way that creatine assist training
> in the huge
> proportions that baseball player McGuire or Holyfield would have the public
> believe.
Mark has also admitted to using "Andro" which is legal in baseball, though
banned in some other sports.
Besides, as I pointed out, Evander did not gain that much weight when he jumped
from Cruiser to Heavy. He's never been a "big" heavy, or what we would call a
"Super Heavy."
> We need to know for sure that they are not taking steroids.
Why?
> That will require multiple tests for steroids of all fighters, year round.
It would.
> I think the boxing industry could easily afford this.
What is the "boxing industry?"
> >By the way, do you work for the boxing industry?
>
> No, I never have worked in the boxing industry.
>Whew!< Glad to hear it!
Wait a minute... an employee of the boxing industry would probably DENY being
employed by the boxing industry! THIS MEANS YOU COULD BE AN EMPLOYEE OF THE
BOXING INDUSTRY!!!!!
Mark Brown
Many bodybuilders use steroids. Schwarzenegger has admitted to it. Note
the similarity in Schwarzenegger's chin to Holyfield's.
>>Someone's walking around weight does not imply anything about their
>>strength to fight in the ring. The two main criteria are bone structure
>>weight, and muscle weight.
>Ok. What does this have to do with steroids?
Steroids dramatically increases the proportion of one's weight which is
muscle. And since muscle burns fat, directly reduces the amount of fat in
the body, all things being kept equal.
>> I remember watching him get disqualified for fouling an opponent in the
1984
>> Olympics. I do not recall thinking he looked like an abuser of steroids
at
>> that time.
>Then we agree.
We're making progress. It should be noted that in the Olympics, he actually
fought for the Light Heavyweight medal, not Heavyweight.
>> Foreman is naturally a big guy and comes from an era before steroids
became
>> even suspected in the boxing world. But we have seen numerous football
>> players with that chin and weightlifters like Schwarzenegger with that
chin.
>> And Schwarzenegger has admitted to use of steroids.
>Indeed he has, but he does not have "that chin." Name a football player
with
>"that chin."
Schwarzenegger definitely does have that chin and a similar forehead to
Holyfield. And heart trouble, a tell tale sign of steroid abuse. Holyfield
also claimed heart problems impaired his performance in the 1st fight with
Moorer.
Football players that I can think of right now, Harry Carson, Lyle Alzado,
Brian Bosworth. There are various kinds of steroids and it could be that
only some of them cause the pronounced bone structure changes that used to
be standard for steroid abusers.
>> Right, and that is why they need to test licensed fighters year round, at
>> least 3 times a year. No one in boxing should be allowed an unnatural
>> advantage over an opponent.
>Trouble is, some fighters don't even fight three times a year. And how are
you
>going to get all 50 states (at least those who allow boxing at all) to
agree on
>the rules?
The states seem to be working in unison right now. Perhaps this is because
they have a common enemy and whipping boy in Mike Tyson.
>> The fact is that many bodybuilders use steroids.
>This is not a fact. This is your opinion. That's ok. I have opinions
too.
>But let's try to keep them seperate, shall we?
There is a huge marketplace for steroids in the US. $400 Million are sold
on the black market each year here. They are sold at gyms everywhere.
>Creatine isn't even a drug. It's a food supplement extracted from meat
>products. You might as well try to bad sugar or salt. Both of these fit
closer
>to the description of a "drug."
Actually I was indeed intending to refer to androstenedione.
>Mark has also admitted to using "Andro" which is legal in baseball, though
>banned in some other sports.
>Besides, as I pointed out, Evander did not gain that much weight when he
jumped
>from Cruiser to Heavy. He's never been a "big" heavy, or what we would
call a
>"Super Heavy."
As I say, the main factors in body weight for a fighter are bone structure
weight and muscle weight. Holyfield has the bone structure of a light
heavyweight, which is what he was at age 22 right after the 1984 Olympics,
and compensates by exaggerating the muscle proportion of his body weight,
apparently through abuse of steroids.
>> We need to know for sure that they are not taking steroids.
>Why?
Because no one should be allowed to obtain an unfair advantage in the ring
through simple, easy but dangerous steroid drug abuse.
>> That will require multiple tests for steroids of all fighters, year
round.
>It would.
Such testing is necessary to ensure that steroids do not become a corrosive
that could damage the boxing sport.
>> I think the boxing industry could easily afford this.
>What is the "boxing industry?"
>Big D
Here I am referrring to the fighters, managers and promoters who I assume
are paying dues to the respective ratings organizations and state boxing
commissions.
Mark Brown
Mark Brown
success.
He has been a fouler from within his amateur career at the Olympics in 1984
and I believe he has abused steroids to acheive his current physique.
>> He was caught stealing at the Olympics in 1984 and was disqualified.
>Not true. He was the victim of poor officiating, something the referee
admitted
>to immediately after. He was winning the fight (IMO) when suddenly the ref
>called for a break. Customarily, when calling for a break, the ref is
supposed
>to step in, shout "Stop!," and then separate the boxers with his hands.
This is wrong. There is much more of an honor system in the amateur ranks
and the referee cannot always be in the perfect position especially if a lot
of clinching and wrestling is ongoing. It is in the pros where it is more
necessary for a clean break to be performed physically by the referee.
That is why that incompetent referee in the recent Lennox Lewis-Mavrovich
fight caused problems for Lewis. He wanted a clean physical break to
protect himself from being hit on the break and the referee was determined
not to perform that sort of break. But that is not requeired or even
customary in the amateurs.
>Instead, he called for the break whole out of position, standing behind the
>boxers, and was not present to separate them. The other boxer seemed to
hear
>the call, and stopped fighting. Evander claimed he did not, and hit him on
the
>jaw, knocking him down for the count. Keep in mind that one of the
cardinal
>rules of boxing is to protect yourself at all times.
It was Holyfield's responsibility not to commit that foul. I heard the
break when I watched that fight. He committed the foul knowingly and
deserved to be disqualified. A lot of people supported him in the USA
because a lot people felt that was a medal for the USA that was taken away
from the USA. But there is no question that Holyfield should have been
disqualified. I cant recall seeing anything like that in the amateurs
before.
>Mills Lane is a Nevada Circuit Court Judge, and someone I consider
completely
>above reproach.
>Big D
Under no conditions should anyone consider a judge to be honest just because
he is a judge. Quite the opposite: judges are more likely to be offered
bribes than anyone in the country. We had a scandal recently in Illinois
wherein one attorney testified to paying off 30 different judges in the
Chicago area. And that was just one attorney. Bryant Gumble's Public Eye
show had a piece on the subject about 6 months ago.
Mark Brown
Robert Phillips
Mark Brown wrote:
> This is a quote from the MSN Encarta encyclopedia on your Windows 95
> desktop:
> "Cro-Magnon, early modern human beings, representatives of Homo sapiens, who
> lived in western and southern Europe during the last glacial age. The
> physical characteristics that distinguish the Cro-Magnons from the
> Neandertals are a high forehead and a well-defined chin. Artifacts show that
> they had mastered the art of fashioning instruments from stone, bone, and
> ivory. Cro-Magnons appear to be the ancestors of the peoples of southern and
> western Europe."
> If I look further maybe I could find a picture for you.
> Mark Brown
No need - you failed utterly to support your incorrect assertion and succeeded
only in digging a deeper hole. The differences between Neandertal and
Cro-Magnon were cultural AND biological - as references will confirm. Between
Cro-Magnon and "modern" man, however, the differences are overwhelmingly
cultural; biologically, Cro-Magnons were "modern." In your earlier post, you
said (of steroids) that "they make you look more like cro-magnon (sic) man.
Back then man..." That implies that Cro-Magnons differed physically from "us;"
they did not.
But nice try and thanks for playing; pick up your free t-shirt from the counter
on your way out.
Joining the pack in ignoring the rest of Mark's trolling,
Pie
Melanie Ley
<bigd...@earthlink.SPAM.net> wrote:
>Mark Brown wrote:
>
>[Opinionated tripe snipped]
>
>> Holyfield clearly appears to be cheating to obtain each step of his success.
>
>Based on what?
>
>> He was caught stealing at the Olympics in 1984 and was disqualified.
Are you saying he was caught in an act of thievery and
summarily drummed out of the Olympics?
Mel
-----------------------
Amateur Boxing News at:
www.amateur-boxing.com
-----------------------
To reply to email, delete "NOSPAM" from the reply address.
Heath Reed
: We're making progress. It should be noted that in the Olympics,
: he actually fought for the Light Heavyweight medal, not Heavyweight.
So did Muhammad Ali - he ended up around 220 also. And your
point was...?
<steroid "examples", delusions of being in the "industry" snipped>
Heath
zsite
Mark Brown wrote in message
>>Unnatural for some, but not for a
bodybuilder.
>
chin and a similar forehead to
>Holyfield. And heart trouble, a tell tale
sign of steroid abuse. Holyfield
>also claimed heart problems impaired his
performance in the 1st fight with
>Moorer.
>Football players that I can think of right
now, Harry Carson, Lyle Alzado,
>Brian Bosworth. There are various kinds of
steroids and it could be that
>only some of them cause the pronounced bone
structure changes that used to
>be standard for steroid abusers.
In fact, all anabolic steroids will do that
to you if..... you use it long enough
which means for years!!! You have to use it
for a while and stop for a while
if you want to keep your wife happy.
>
>>> Right, and that is why they need to test
licensed fighters year round, at
>>> least 3 times a year. No one in boxing
should be allowed an unnatural
>>> advantage over an opponent.
Don't worry about that, they probably all use
it.
>>> The fact is that many bodybuilders use
steroids.
>>This is not a fact. This is your opinion.
That's ok. I have opinions
>too.
>>But let's try to keep them seperate, shall
we?
Sorry, I think it's fair to say " many "
bodybuilders use it, not people who
occasionally walked into the gym, but body
builders, this I know from
very close information, first hand. ( the
Netherlands ).
Unless you think that Americans are some kind
of special breed with
incredible genetics and unbelievable (male)
hormone levels.
I don't think it's wise to try to ban "drugs"
from sport, not because I don't see
your point, I do but I (and I am not even an
expert), know so many way's to
cheat on testing, there are masking drugs
there are drugs who aren't
detectable at all.
Especially this last kind deserve special
attention, I am talking about
(Human) Grow Hormone (GH), known as STH.
This is a VERY expensive drug, which is made
synthetic sinds 1980,
before it was made from human origin, this
was very dangerous, because it
could be polluted with all kinds of viral
infections like hepatitis and aids.
It is still produced in the former USSR from
human origin and costs only
a fraction off the synthetic version.
Some have suggested to the industry to "mark"
these products, so if you ever
use a marked drug, you be marked as a user
for life!
This solution will simply result in a two way
production line, one marked and the
other one unmarked, this last product will be
even more expensive.
Therefore some people will take a Camille and
use the USSR version.
So IMO, this will never lead to a healthier
ore more honest sport.
Bottom line is : if there is no way to check,
forget all these regulations.
And yes, I am convinced Holifield use(d) it,
but he's not the only one.
Ed.
i cheehuahua
>
> This is a quote from the MSN Encarta encyclopedia on your Windows 95
> desktop:
>
> "Cro-Magnon, early modern human beings, representatives of Homo sapiens, who
> lived in western and southern Europe during the last glacial age. The
> physical characteristics that distinguish the Cro-Magnons from the
> Neandertals are a high forehead and a well-defined chin. Artifacts show that
> they had mastered the art of fashioning instruments from stone, bone, and
> ivory. Cro-Magnons appear to be the ancestors of the peoples of southern and
> western Europe."
>
> If I look further maybe I could find a picture for you.
If Pie wants to see a picture of Cro-Magnums he will tilt his head
momentarily away from his computer screen and glance at his family
picture on the wall. After all we all know Pie is the missing link.
I better add a smilly face :) or Pie will shit out a holyfield.
i cheehuahua :)
i cheehuahua
>
> On Wed, 07 Oct 1998 12:37:29 -0700, Don MacAngus
> <bigd...@earthlink.SPAM.net> wrote:
>
> >Mark Brown wrote:
> >
> >[Opinionated tripe snipped]
> >
> >> Holyfield clearly appears to be cheating to obtain each step of his success.
> >
> >Based on what?
> >
> >> He was caught stealing at the Olympics in 1984 and was disqualified.
>
> Are you saying he was caught in an act of thievery and
> summarily drummed out of the Olympics?
>
> Mel
No the sentence above obviously is implying that you are the son of
Satan! Now clean your glasses and see a doctor about them cataracts!
:)
i cheehuahua
i cheehuahua
Trust me stick around and you will see what everyone in here thinks of
Pie. I am going to be truthfull with you... I am a shithead...but if
you were to pile on 20 ft of shit on my head... I still wouldn't be as
big of a shithead as him :)
i cheehuahua
KFitzGerald
> So did Muhammad Ali - he ended up around 220 also. And your
> point was...?
Yes. Ali's first professional fight was at 182, I believe.
KF
Don MacAngus
> >> Holyfield clearly appears to be cheating to obtain each step of his
> success.
>
> He has been a fouler from within his amateur career at the Olympics in 1984
> and I believe he has abused steroids to acheive his current physique.
Ok, so you are overworking this reference to his single foul in the Olympics
(without explaining how he got DQ'd, but also ended up with a medal), and then
reasserting that you beleive he is using (abusing) anabolics. What else is new.
> >> He was caught stealing at the Olympics in 1984 and was disqualified.
> >Not true. He was the victim of poor officiating, something the referee
> admitted
> >to immediately after. He was winning the fight (IMO) when suddenly the ref
> >called for a break. Customarily, when calling for a break, the ref is
> supposed
> >to step in, shout "Stop!," and then separate the boxers with his hands.
>
> This is wrong.
What is wrong?
> There is much more of an honor system in the amateur ranks and the referee
> cannot always be in the perfect position especially if a lot of clinching and
> wrestling is ongoing. It is in the pros where it is more necessary for a
> clean break to be performed physically by the referee. That is why that
> incompetent referee in the recent Lennox Lewis- Mavrovich fight caused
> problems for Lewis. He wanted a clean physical break to
> protect himself from being hit on the break and the referee was determined not
> to perform that sort of break. But that is not requeired or even customary in
> the amateurs.
I will say it again, in case you missed it. The referree admitted that it was
his mistake. That means he screwed up, not Holyfield. That's why he got a
medal in spite of the DQ.
> >Instead, he called for the break whole out of position, standing behind the
> >boxers, and was not present to separate them. The other boxer seemed to hear
>
> >the call, and stopped fighting. Evander claimed he did not, and hit him on
> the
> >jaw, knocking him down for the count. Keep in mind that one of the cardinal
> >rules of boxing is to protect yourself at all times.
>
> It was Holyfield's responsibility not to commit that foul.
True. The point is, without proper notification to stop fighting, Holyfield did
not know he was committing a foul. His opponent DID know that he was not
protecting himself at all times.
> I heard the break when I watched that fight.
I heard it on the replay. But that means nothing. You weren't in the ring.
You weren't facing the opponent, trying to listen to your corner's advice,
hearing the crowd scream, and you have the advantage of the network's microphone
trained on the ref.
> He committed the foul knowingly and deserved to be disqualified.
Here we go again. That is your opinion, and not a fact. My opinion is that you
are wrong. Not that it really matters... but we are discussing the facts in the
case. Let's stick to them, shall we?
> A lot of people supported him in the USA because a lot people felt that was a
> medal for the USA that was taken away from the USA. But there is no question
> that Holyfield should have been disqualified.
He WAS disqualified.
> I cant recall seeing anything like that in the amateurs before.
Oh, give me a break. There have been many DQ's in the Olympics.
> >Mills Lane is a Nevada Circuit Court Judge, and someone I consider completely
>
> >above reproach.
>
> Under no conditions should anyone consider a judge to be honest just because
> he is a judge. Quite the opposite: judges are more likely to be offered
> bribes than anyone in the country. We had a scandal recently in Illinois
> wherein one attorney testified to paying off 30 different judges in the
> Chicago area. And that was just one attorney. Bryant Gumble's Public Eye
> show had a piece on the subject about 6 months ago.
So in your opinion, because he is a judge he must therefore surely be crooked.
Nice.
Don MacAngus
> >Unnatural for some, but not for a bodybuilder.
>
> Many bodybuilders use steroids.
That's true.
> Schwarzenegger has admitted to it.
That he has. In the past.
> Note the similarity in Schwarzenegger's chin to Holyfield's.
They are not similar at all.
>>Someone's walking around weight does not imply anything about their trength to
fight in the ring. The two main criteria are bone structure weight, and muscle
weight.
> >Ok. What does this have to do with steroids?
>
> Steroids dramatically increases the proportion of one's weight which is
> muscle. And since muscle burns fat, directly reduces the amount of fat in the
> body, all things being kept equal.
Ok, so what does this have to do with Holyfield?
> >> I remember watching him get disqualified for fouling an opponent in the
> 1984
> >> Olympics. I do not recall thinking he looked like an abuser of steroids at
>
> >> that time.
> >Then we agree.
>
> We're making progress.
We DID agree. Now we don't.
> It should be noted that in the Olympics, he actually fought for the Light
> Heavyweight medal, not Heavyweight.
Did you know that Micheal Spinks fought as a middleweight in the Olympics, and
then as a light-heavy, and eventually a heavyweight as a pro? Did you know that
Cassius Clay was a light-heavy as an amateur, and a heavy as a pro? It's
nothing new, nor unusual.
> >> Foreman is naturally a big guy and comes from an era before steroids became
>
> >> even suspected in the boxing world. But we have seen numerous football
> >> players with that chin and weightlifters like Schwarzenegger with that
> chin.
> >> And Schwarzenegger has admitted to use of steroids.
> >Indeed he has, but he does not have "that chin." Name a football player with
>
> >"that chin."
>
> Schwarzenegger definitely does have that chin and a similar forehead to
> Holyfield.
I disagree.
> And heart trouble, a tell tale sign of steroid abuse.
Arnold's heart trouble is not reportedly of the nature related to steroid abuse,
at least according to the reports I have read. If you have seen otherwise,
please list it here for all of us to see.
> Holyfield also claimed heart problems impaired his performance in the 1st
> fight with
> Moorer.
Shoulder problems. Holyfield always said he knew his heart was ok.
> Football players that I can think of right now, Harry Carson, Lyle Alzado,
> Brian Bosworth.
None of them had an elongated chin.
> There are various kinds of steroids and it could be that only some of them
> cause the pronounced bone structure changes that used to be standard for
> steroid abusers.
Could be. So you don't know. Yet you make these baseless assertions, as if you
have some sort of informed knowledge about it.
> >> Right, and that is why they need to test licensed fighters year round, at
> >> least 3 times a year. No one in boxing should be allowed an unnatural
> >> advantage over an opponent.
> >Trouble is, some fighters don't even fight three times a year. And how are
> you
> >going to get all 50 states (at least those who allow boxing at all) to agree
> on
> >the rules?
>
> The states seem to be working in unison right now.
How do you figure?
> Perhaps this is because they have a common enemy and whipping boy in Mike
> Tyson.
Mike Tyson would probably be granted a boxing license in several states if he
applied. He has not applied.
> >> The fact is that many bodybuilders use steroids.
> >This is not a fact. This is your opinion. That's ok. I have opinions too.
> >But let's try to keep them seperate, shall we?
>
> There is a huge marketplace for steroids in the US. $400 Million are sold on
> the black market each year here. They are sold at gyms everywhere.
Wrong. They are peddled by steroid pushers who might happen to be in the gym
when they approach people. Gyms have nothing to do with selling steroids.
> >Creatine isn't even a drug. It's a food supplement extracted from meat
> >products. You might as well try to bad sugar or salt. Both of these fit
> closer
> >to the description of a "drug."
>
> Actually I was indeed intending to refer to androstenedione.
Andro is not a steroid. It is a drug (I don't want to get too technical here,
since I will quickly be getting in over my head) that increases testosterone
levels. It does give steroid-like benefits, so I have read, but not to the
degree, nor at the same rate as do anabolics. Andro is an over-the-counter
drug, available at pharmacys and GNC stores.
> >Mark has also admitted to using "Andro" which is legal in baseball, though
> >banned in some other sports.
>
> >Besides, as I pointed out, Evander did not gain that much weight when he
> jumped
> >from Cruiser to Heavy. He's never been a "big" heavy, or what we would call
> a
> >"Super Heavy."
>
> As I say, the main factors in body weight for a fighter are bone structure
> weight and muscle weight. Holyfield has the bone structure of a light
> heavyweight, which is what he was at age 22 right after the 1984 Olympics, and
> compensates by exaggerating the muscle proportion of his body weight,
> apparently through abuse of steroids.
No... the proper way to say that is... in your opinion, through the abuse of
steroids.
Now, if you could provide something other than anecdotal evidence of this,
perhaps we could get somewhere.
> >> We need to know for sure that they are not taking steroids.
> >Why?
>
> Because no one should be allowed to obtain an unfair advantage in the ring
> through simple, easy but dangerous steroid drug abuse.
But according to your arguement, everyone is capable of getting ahold of
steroids, so there would not be any advantage, would there?
> >> That will require multiple tests for steroids of all fighters, year round.
> >It would.
>
> Such testing is necessary to ensure that steroids do not become a corrosive
> that could damage the boxing sport.
There are such tests, as the one that caught "the White Buffalo" after his win
over Schultz.
> >> I think the boxing industry could easily afford this.
> >What is the "boxing industry?"
>
> Here I am referrring to the fighters, managers and promoters who I assume are
> paying dues to the respective ratings organizations and state boxing
> commissions.
They do pay a sanctioning fee, but they are all individuals, with individual
interests. Nobody has their heads together in this sport. There is no "boxing
industry" in my opinion.
Mark Brown
which Chavez did not have a chance of winning.
Fights of this type should be characterized by the media as what they are :
entertainment with big names, not sport.
These 2 fights remind me of almost all of the fights that Marvin Hagler had
after he won the middleweight title.
Mugabe, Hearns and Leonard were weight mismatches.
And in the case of Sugar Ray Leonard, Hagler threw the fight.
The fix was in.
Mark Brown
Mark Brown
>>he actually fought for the Light Heavyweight medal, not Heavyweight.
>point was...?
>Heath
That is my point. Ali was only 18 in 1960 and had not stopped growing,
naturally. Holyfield was almost 22 and had stopped growing.
Mark Brown
Mark Brown
>> point was...?
>> Heath
>KF
As I already stated, Ali was 18 after the 1960 Olympics. He was born in
January 1942. Ali was still growing naturally for the next several years.
Holyfield was almost 22 at the 1984 Olympics and had already stopped growing
naturally.
Mark Brown
Mwhaught
<cut n' paste several posts from Mark Brown and others>
>> Note the similarity in Schwarzenegger's chin to Holyfield's.
>
>> >> players with that chin and weightlifters like Schwarzenegger with that
>> chin.
>> >Indeed he has, but he does not have "that chin." Name a football player
>with
>>
>> >"that chin."
>>
>> Schwarzenegger definitely does have that chin and a similar forehead to
>> Holyfield.
"That Chin" as referred to by Mark Brown, is usually caused by using Human
Growth Hormone. At least that is what I have been told by Doctors who have
prescribed the stuff.
Does anyone remember the guy who was electrocuted by Stallone in "Tango and
Cash"? He looked to have an HGH chin.
-mwh
Mark Brown
>to you if..... you use it long enough
>which means for years!!! You have to use it
>for a while and stop for a while
>if you want to keep your wife happy.
That must be it. Because there are many people who obviously use steroids
but do not have that chin or other steroid characteristics.
>Don't worry about that, they probably all use it.
I dont think so. I think the fighters who obviously have muscles rippling
all over their body are the ones likely to be using steroids. Hence, I
believe, the George Foreman joke that Holyfield even has muscles in his
toes.
>Sorry, I think it's fair to say " many "
>bodybuilders use it, not people who
>occasionally walked into the gym, but body
>builders, this I know from
>very close information, first hand. ( the
>Netherlands ).
>Unless you think that Americans are some kind
>of special breed with
>incredible genetics and unbelievable (male)
>hormone levels.
Documentation indicates that the black market for steroids in the USA is
$400 Million, at least. I assume this indicates a huge amount of abuse,
though it is uncleear what dollar amount of steroids is necessary for each
user, per year.
>I don't think it's wise to try to ban "drugs"
>from sport, not because I don't see
>your point, I do but I (and I am not even an
>expert), know so many way's to
>cheat on testing, there are masking drugs
>there are drugs who aren't
>detectable at all.
I thought that the detection methods had been improved and that the masking
drugs themselves had been outlawed.
>Especially this last kind deserve special
>attention, I am talking about
>(Human) Grow Hormone (GH), known as STH.
>This is a VERY expensive drug, which is made
>synthetic sinds 1980,
>before it was made from human origin, this
>was very dangerous, because it
>could be polluted with all kinds of viral
>infections like hepatitis and aids.
>It is still produced in the former USSR from
>human origin and costs only
>a fraction off the synthetic version.
>Some have suggested to the industry to "mark"
>these products, so if you ever
>use a marked drug, you be marked as a user
>for life!
I assume you mean they may carry any contaminant virus for life.
>This solution will simply result in a two way
>production line, one marked and the
>other one unmarked, this last product will be
>even more expensive.
>Therefore some people will take a Camille and
>use the USSR version.
No idea what a Camille is.
>So IMO, this will never lead to a healthier
>ore more honest sport.
>Bottom line is : if there is no way to check,
>forget all these regulations.
Fighters training honestly for a fight must know that the opponent is doing
the same. Otherwise, we will have an arms race for all kinds of cheating
which will corrupt the sport. Boxing will become a contest of drug
addiction and abuse rather than of natural skill and determined training.
>And yes, I am convinced Holifield use(d) it,
>but he's not the only one.
Holyfield is an obvious user. As Foreman says, Holyfield even has muscles
in his toes.
Mark Brown
Mark Brown
Mark Brown
Mark Brown
>They are not similar at all.
You have to look at the profile (from the side).
>> Steroids dramatically increases the proportion of one's weight which is
>> muscle. And since muscle burns fat, directly reduces the amount of fat
in the
>> body, all things being kept equal.
>Ok, so what does this have to do with Holyfield?
Holyfield has increased dramatically his proportion of muscle content in his
total weight. He did this so quickly and so enormously that he must have
used steroids to accomplish it. And I believe that he continues to use
steroids.
>We DID agree. Now we don't.
Disagree about what ?
>Did you know that Micheal Spinks fought as a middleweight in the Olympics,
and
>then as a light-heavy, and eventually a heavyweight as a pro? Did you know
that
>Cassius Clay was a light-heavy as an amateur, and a heavy as a pro? It's
>nothing new, nor unusual.
Age has a lot to do with this. Clay/Ali was 18 when he wont the Gold medal
in 1960. That is like a football player's first year of college. There is
still a lot of growing to do, naturally.
>> Schwarzenegger definitely does have that chin and a similar forehead to
>> Holyfield.
>I disagree.
With a guy like Schwarzenegger, you have been watching him so long that you
may have simply become used to the shape of his chin.
>> And heart trouble, a tell tale sign of steroid abuse.
>Arnold's heart trouble is not reportedly of the nature related to steroid
abuse,
>at least according to the reports I have read. If you have seen otherwise,
>please list it here for all of us to see.
Schwarzenegger has an expensive public relations firm working for him; what
do you think they are going to claim. That he is a walking example of
steroid abuse and how steroids can kill you ? Perhaps if it brings him to
his deathbed, like Alzado, that might develop. Definitely not yet. But the
word is that he will not be in Terminator III. His marketability may have
been damaged already.
>> Holyfield also claimed heart problems impaired his performance in the 1st
>> fight with Moorer.
>Shoulder problems. Holyfield always said he knew his heart was ok.
That is not what I heard. And I thought he was the source of that
information about his heart. He may have chosen to deny it later, when he
realized that such admissions could be interpreted as evidence of steroid
abuse. Florence Griffith Joyner is now believed more than ever to have
abused steroids, heavily. I wish it was not true but I really thought that
was a man running next to Evelyn Ashford in the 100 meter dash.
>> Football players that I can think of right now, Harry Carson, Lyle
Alzado,
>> Brian Bosworth.
>None of them had an elongated chin.
You have to look at the profile (from the side).
>Could be. So you don't know. Yet you make these baseless assertions, as
if you
>have some sort of informed knowledge about it.
Thank goodness I do not have intimate knowledge of steroids. However, I do
recognize abuse of steroids. Some hide it more than others. As someone
here has stated today, it is the persistent unabated abuse of steroids
which causes the chin to enlarge.
>> The states seem to be working in unison right now.
>How do you figure?
>> Perhaps this is because they have a common enemy and whipping boy in
Mike
>> Tyson.
>Mike Tyson would probably be granted a boxing license in several states if
he
>applied. He has not applied.
Actually, I do not believe that is true. The inside word was that New
Jersey was going to reject him and there arent many significant venues in
whichit is worthwhile to fight.
The corrupt sports press has whipped up an enormous amount of hysteria about
Tyson and he may well be fighting overseas before long. He certainly does
not owe the US boxing scene any favors.
The irritating thing is that, more than anyone since Ali, Tyson brought
honesty and interest back to boxing. There were a lot of fixed heavyweight
fights going on when Tyson came onto the scene. Tyson always fought as well
as he could, was not a habitual fouler and never 'carried' his opponents. He
deserves better consideration than he has received. And, he was good for
the boxing business. It is incredible what has developed. But I have a
funny feeling that if Bob Arum held the rights to Tyson, his influence over
the press would make sure Tyson would deified as the 2nd coming by now.
There is widespread corruption in the sports press and it has a lot to do
with what has developed with Tyson.
>> There is a huge marketplace for steroids in the US. $400 Million are
sold on
>> the black market each year here. They are sold at gyms everywhere.
>Wrong. They are peddled by steroid pushers who might happen to be in the
gym
>when they approach people. Gyms have nothing to do with selling steroids.
I did not say that the gyms were selling steroids officially. However, the
pushers are not just present at the gym, they are usually members who use
and sell. Just like most other drug dealers.
>> Actually I was indeed intending to refer to androstenedione.
>Andro is not a steroid. It is a drug (I don't want to get too technical
here,
>since I will quickly be getting in over my head) that increases
testosterone
>levels. It does give steroid-like benefits, so I have read, but not to the
>degree, nor at the same rate as do anabolics. Andro is an over-the-counter
>drug, available at pharmacys and GNC stores.
Right, that was my point. Since androstenedione increases the levels of
steroids in the body in the body and is legal, cheating athletes can claim
their massive muscle development can claim androstenedione was responsible,
not regular steroids. We should ban anything that has effects that appear
to be anything like steroids.
>No... the proper way to say that is... in your opinion, through the abuse
of
>steroids.
>Now, if you could provide something other than anecdotal evidence of this,
>perhaps we could get somewhere.
Yes, that is my opinion. As I have said, he has the tell tale enormous
muscle weight gain, the enlarged chin bone structure, and the concomitant
heart trouble which he complained about after the 1st Moorer fight.
I should mentioned that since steroids do increase the size of the chin
bone, it should safe to assume that it increased the size of other bones in
the body. Thus Foreman may have also increased his bone structure weight
proportion significantly, as well.
>> >> We need to know for sure that they are not taking steroids.
>> >Why?
>> Because no one should be allowed to obtain an unfair advantage in the
ring
>> through simple, easy but dangerous steroid drug abuse.
>But according to your arguement, everyone is capable of getting ahold of
>steroids, so there would not be any advantage, would there?
Not everyone wants to be a drug abuser. And certainly no one should be
presneted as a role model who is abusing drugs, no matter what drugs they
are.
>> >> That will require multiple tests for steroids of all fighters, year
round.
>> >It would.
>> Such testing is necessary to ensure that steroids do not become a
corrosive
>> that could damage the boxing sport.
>There are such tests, as the one that caught "the White Buffalo" after his
win
>over Schultz.
I have not heard of "the White Buffalo" by that name.
>> >> I think the boxing industry could easily afford this.
>> >What is the "boxing industry?"
>> Here I am referrring to the fighters, managers and promoters who I
assume are
>> paying dues to the respective ratings organizations and state boxing
>> commissions.
>They do pay a sanctioning fee, but they are all individuals, with
individual
>interests. Nobody has their heads together in this sport. There is no
"boxing
>industry" in my opinion.
>Big D
I would call for the Nevada commission to lead the way, since most major
fights occur there, but their conduct in the Tyson matter disqualifies them
as an honest broker. They clearly have an axe to grind, are playing to the
hysteria whipped up by a corrupt media, and seem intent on embarassing Tyson
through disclosure of his medical records. Disclosure of medical records I
believe is illegal in many states.
Mark Brown
Mark Brown
>Growth Hormone. At least that is what I have been told by Doctors who have
>prescribed the stuff.
That chin has been around for decades. I thought that Human Growth Hormone
was a recent development.
I have always associated that chin with steroids. If HGH can also generate
that bone deformity, then so be it.
Mark Brown
Mark Brown
http://www.parentcompany.com/creation_explanation/cx5j.htm
There are picture of skulls and large enlarged chins (like Evander
Holyfield's) there too:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
"Fossils which are either definitely human or allegedly ancestral to man are
roughly classified by form into five groups, which we shall now discuss.
1. Essentially modern types: These fossils, considered to be Homo sapiens,
fall in their form within the range of variation of modern man. The skull
shape is relatively round with high forehead and crown, face fairly
vertical, with prominent chin, and the brain capacity is from about 1,200 to
1650 cc (cubic centimeters). Included in this classification are the
Cro-Magnon people (accepted as modern man or the immediate ancestors of the
modern human race), and the Castenedolo, Olmo, Calaveras, Swanscombe,
Foxhall and Galley Hill fossils, plus a few others. The latter six named
fossil finds, with the exception of Swanscombe, have all been rejected by
paleontologists and anthropologists. The reason is that, although their
forms are clearly in the range of modern humans, they were found in geologic
strata that were far too deep for such modern types to be located and fit
properly into the ape-to-man evolutionary scenario. They were discovered in
strata classified as Pliocene that are dated as one million or more years
older than the late Pleistocene strata in which modern human fossils are
theoretically supposed to appear. Thus the Castenedolo, Olmo, Calaveras,
Foxhall and Galley Hill fossils have been relegated to dusty museum closets
and forgotten by the anthropologists, interpreted as "intrusive burials" or
frauds, because they do not fit the accepted theory of human origins. Sir
Arthur Keith, British scientists and dean of anthropologists in the first
quarter of this century, in his book, The Antiquity of Man, described the
circumstances of these rejected fossils in detail. He told how they would
have been accepted as genuine had they not so radically contradicted the
ape-to-man dogma which rules the minds f most scientists.22
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
figure 5-1. Important skulls referred to in the text.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
-------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Phillips wrote in message <361C41CE...@concentric.net>...
>
>Mark Brown wrote:
>
>> This is a quote from the MSN Encarta encyclopedia on your Windows 95
>> desktop:
>> "Cro-Magnon, early modern human beings, representatives of Homo sapiens,
who
>> lived in western and southern Europe during the last glacial age. The
>> physical characteristics that distinguish the Cro-Magnons from the
>> Neandertals are a high forehead and a well-defined chin. Artifacts show
that
>> they had mastered the art of fashioning instruments from stone, bone, and
>> ivory. Cro-Magnons appear to be the ancestors of the peoples of southern
and
>> western Europe."
>> If I look further maybe I could find a picture for you.
Mark Brown
disqualified. Who knows what foul he would have committed had he reached
the final round in the 1984 Olympics.
>>> He was caught stealing at the Olympics in 1984 and was disqualified.
>
> Are you saying he was caught in an act of thievery and
>summarily drummed out of the Olympics?
>Mel
Mark Brown
Mark Brown
1984
>> and I believe he has abused steroids to acheive his current physique.
>Ok, so you are overworking this reference to his single foul in the
Olympics
>(without explaining how he got DQ'd, but also ended up with a medal), and
then
>reasserting that you beleive he is using (abusing) anabolics. What else is
new.
You appear to have an unreachable threshold for dishonorable conduct and
cheating. What a surprise.
>> >called for a break. Customarily, when calling for a break, the ref is
>> supposed
>> >to step in, shout "Stop!," and then separate the boxers with his hands.
>> This is wrong.
>What is wrong?
It is wrong to imply that the referee is required acheive a perfect 90
degree angle with the boxers before he can call a break. As I recall in
that fight there was a lot of wrestling and turning going on.
>> There is much more of an honor system in the amateur ranks and the
referee
>> cannot always be in the perfect position especially if a lot of clinching
and
>> wrestling is ongoing. It is in the pros where it is more necessary for a
>> clean break to be performed physically by the referee. That is why that
>> incompetent referee in the recent Lennox Lewis- Mavrovich fight caused
>> problems for Lewis. He wanted a clean physical break to
>> protect himself from being hit on the break and the referee was
determined not
>> to perform that sort of break. But that is not requeired or even
customary in
>> the amateurs.
>I will say it again, in case you missed it. The referree admitted that it
was
>his mistake. That means he screwed up, not Holyfield. That's why he got a
>medal in spite of the DQ.
After pressure was brought to bear on the referee based on US claims that
Holyfield might have gone on to win the fight, the referee did what he could
to help the US win that medal. However, there is no question that the
command to break was given, Holyfield heard it but chose to cheat. That
time, he did not escape punishment. With the widespread corruption of
boxing and of the boxing sports press here in the US, he walks on water,
though committed even worse and more dangerous acts. Acts which he has
clearly practised in the gym.
>> >Instead, he called for the break whole out of position, standing behind
the
>> >boxers, and was not present to separate them. The other boxer seemed to
hear
>>
>> >the call, and stopped fighting. Evander claimed he did not, and hit him
on
>> the
>> >jaw, knocking him down for the count. Keep in mind that one of the
cardinal
>> >rules of boxing is to protect yourself at all times.
The referee says that before all professional fights, but that is not the
ethic of the amateurs.
>> It was Holyfield's responsibility not to commit that foul.
>True. The point is, without proper notification to stop fighting,
Holyfield did
>not know he was committing a foul. His opponent DID know that he was not
>protecting himself at all times.
Again, when therfe is wrestling and spinning prevalent in a fight, the
referee is not always in the exact 90 degree position to call the break.
But the command must be honored. The referee gave proper acceptable
notification for the break. If one fighter heard it, we must assume they
both did.
>> I heard the break when I watched that fight.
>I heard it on the replay. But that means nothing. You weren't in the
ring.
>You weren't facing the opponent, trying to listen to your corner's advice,
>hearing the crowd scream, and you have the advantage of the network's
microphone
>trained on the ref.
Again, if one fighter heard it, we must assume they both did. Otherwise, we
should also believe all murder defendants who claim they were in fear for
their lives when they committed the murder and thus should be allowed to
walk based on self-defense.
>> He committed the foul knowingly and deserved to be disqualified.
>
>Here we go again. That is your opinion, and not a fact. My opinion is
that you
>are wrong. Not that it really matters... but we are discussing the facts
in the
>case. Let's stick to them, shall we?
I am and I repeat: if one fighter heard the command, we must assume they
both did. If there was any doubt in Holyfield's mind, he should not have hit
the other fighter when he started to move back and dropped his guard. Those
actions in and of themselves should indicate to a clean fighter that
something has happened. Either a break or the round is over. Holyfield's
conduct was indefensible.
>> A lot of people supported him in the USA because a lot people felt that
was a
>> medal for the USA that was taken away from the USA. But there is no
question
>> that Holyfield should have been disqualified.
>He WAS disqualified.
Right, once that result is recorded, it is hard to reverse. However, because
the victim of Holyfield's foul was knocked out, he himself was not allowed,
under amateur boxing rules, to fight for the Gold medal (or anywhere for a
month). Thus the winner of the Gold medal received a walkover. Thus, a lot
went wrong and a special dispensation was given to Holyfield while charity
was in the air.
>> I cant recall seeing anything like that in the amateurs before.
>Oh, give me a break. There have been many DQ's in the Olympics.
Again, it is very uncommon for such fouls to occur in the amateurs on a
break. That is a very important item in amateur boxing that has a honor
system associated with it.
>> >Mills Lane is a Nevada Circuit Court Judge, and someone I consider
completely
>> >above reproach.
>> Under no conditions should anyone consider a judge to be honest just
because
>> he is a judge. Quite the opposite: judges are more likely to be offered
>> bribes than anyone in the country. We had a scandal recently in Illinois
>> wherein one attorney testified to paying off 30 different judges in the
>> Chicago area. And that was just one attorney. Bryant Gumble's Public
Eye
>> show had a piece on the subject about 6 months ago.
>So in your opinion, because he is a judge he must therefore surely be
crooked.
>Nice.
I simply say that judicial corruption is a big problem in the US which is
very underreported. I wonder why Bryant Gumble was the only reporter to
bring that corruption to our attention.
30 judges, several of whom went to jail. I doubt most people on this forum
ever heard anything about it until they heard it here. And they may still
not believe it since they never heard about it in the press.
Mark Brown
Robert Phillips
Mark Brown wrote:
> This quote is from
> http://www.parentcompany.com/creation_explanation/cx5j.htm
> There are picture of skulls and large enlarged chins (like Evander
> Holyfield's) there too:
You expect me to accept the input of a creationist website on the topic of human
origins??
Right, okay...
>click<
Pie
Don MacAngus
> >> He has been a fouler from within his amateur career at the Olympics in 1984
>
> >> and I believe he has abused steroids to acheive his current physique.
>
> >Ok, so you are overworking this reference to his single foul in the Olympics
> >(without explaining how he got DQ'd, but also ended up with a medal), and
> then
> >reasserting that you beleive he is using (abusing) anabolics. What else is
> new.
>
> You appear to have an unreachable threshold for dishonorable conduct and
> cheating. What a surprise.
I merely await your proof, as opposed to your opinion, and unsupported anecdotal
evidence mixed with conspiracy theories, and out and out BS.
> >> >called for a break. Customarily, when calling for a break, the ref is
> >> supposed
> >> >to step in, shout "Stop!," and then separate the boxers with his hands.
> >> This is wrong.
> >What is wrong?
>
> It is wrong to imply that the referee is required acheive a perfect 90 degree
> angle with the boxers before he can call a break.
I do not imply that. I assert (and he admitted to it) that he was out of
position.
> As I recall in that fight there was a lot of wrestling and turning going on.
Possibly, but not at the time of the DQ.
> >> There is much more of an honor system in the amateur ranks and the referee
> >> cannot always be in the perfect position especially if a lot of clinching
> and
> >> wrestling is ongoing. It is in the pros where it is more necessary for a
> >> clean break to be performed physically by the referee. That is why that
> >> incompetent referee in the recent Lennox Lewis- Mavrovich fight caused
> >> problems for Lewis. He wanted a clean physical break to
> >> protect himself from being hit on the break and the referee was determined
> not
> >> to perform that sort of break. But that is not requeired or even customary
> in
> >> the amateurs.
> >I will say it again, in case you missed it. The referree admitted that it
> was
> >his mistake. That means he screwed up, not Holyfield. That's why he got a
> >medal in spite of the DQ.
>
> After pressure was brought to bear on the referee based on US claims that
> Holyfield might have gone on to win the fight, the referee did what he could
> to help the US win that medal.
Yes, I'm sure they confided all this to you, you utter bullshit artist.
I challenge you to offer a single shred of supporting evidence.
I hereby hold my breath...
> However, there is no question that the command to break was given, Holyfield
> heard it but chose to cheat. That time, he did not escape punishment. With
> the widespread corruption of boxing and of the boxing sports press here in the
> US, he walks on water,
> though committed even worse and more dangerous acts. Acts which he has
> clearly practised in the gym.
Bullshit artist!
Again... I challenge you to offer a single shred of supporting evidence.I am
still holding my breath...
> >> >Instead, he called for the break whole out of position, standing behind
> the
> >> >boxers, and was not present to separate them. The other boxer seemed to
> hear
> >>
> >> >the call, and stopped fighting. Evander claimed he did not, and hit him
> on the
> >> >jaw, knocking him down for the count. Keep in mind that one of the
> cardinal
> >> >rules of boxing is to protect yourself at all times.
>
> The referee says that before all professional fights, but that is not the
> ethic of the amateurs.
An interesting but totally useless fact.
> >> It was Holyfield's responsibility not to commit that foul.
> >True. The point is, without proper notification to stop fighting, Holyfield
> did
> >not know he was committing a foul. His opponent DID know that he was not
> >protecting himself at all times.
>
> Again, when therfe is wrestling and spinning prevalent in a fight, the referee
> is not always in the exact 90 degree position to call the break.
Another interesting but totally useless fact.
> But the command must be honored.
Which is why they called the DQ.
> The referee gave proper acceptable notification for the break.
No, he was out of position, and that's why both fighters didn't hear it.
> If one fighter heard it, we must assume they both did.
No, YOU MAY assume they both did. WE don't have to assume anything.
> >> I heard the break when I watched that fight.
> >I heard it on the replay. But that means nothing. You weren't in the ring.
> >You weren't facing the opponent, trying to listen to your corner's advice,
> >hearing the crowd scream, and you have the advantage of the network's
> microphone
> >trained on the ref.
>
> Again, if one fighter heard it, we must assume they both did.
Again... bullshit.
> Otherwise, we should also believe all murder defendants who claim they were in
> fear for their lives when they committed the murder and thus should be allowed
> to walk based on self-defense.
Where did that diatribe come from?
I'm really starting to wonder about you...
> >> He committed the foul knowingly and deserved to be disqualified.
> >
> >Here we go again. That is your opinion, and not a fact. My opinion is that
> you
> >are wrong. Not that it really matters... but we are discussing the facts in
> the
> >case. Let's stick to them, shall we?
>
> I am
Ok...
Here's the difference.
Mark Brown says: "I think Holyfield knew what he was doing when he fouled out in
the Olympics."
That's an opinion, and I have absolutely no objection to your stating it here.
I might ask you why you think that, but that's ok. It's just what you think.
Mark Brown says: "He committed the foul knowingly..."
That's Mark Brown talking out his ass, and definitely NOT a fact.
Let's stick to the facts, shall we?
Here's another example.
Big D says, "Holyfield says he didn't hear the break. The ref admitted he was
out of position, and that the confusion which led to the DQ was his fault. This
is why Holyfield was still given the bronze medal."
These are facts, independently verifiable through reliable sources.
Mark Brown says: "After pressure was brought to bear on the referee based on US
claims that Holyfield might have gone on to win the fight, the referee did what
he could to help the US win that medal."
See, Mark Brown has absolutely no evidence of this whatever, which means that it
is pure bullshit.
See the difference?
> and I repeat: if one fighter heard the command, we must assume they both did.
Yes, you are repetitive. It is annoying.
> If there was any doubt in Holyfield's mind, he should not have hit the other
> fighter when he started to move back and dropped his guard.
I think I have established that there WAS not doubt in Holyfield's mind. By his
admission, he was in the ring, the bell had not rung, both fighters had been
advised to protect themselves at all times, and he did not hear the call to
break. How many times do I have to say this?
> Those actions in and of themselves should indicate to a clean fighter that
> something has happened. Either a break or the round is over. Holyfield's
> conduct was indefensible.
That's your opinion. I disagree. So did the ref, and the Olympic committee,
which is why they gave him the bronze. End of story.
> >> A lot of people supported him in the USA because a lot people felt that was
> a
> >> medal for the USA that was taken away from the USA. But there is no
> question
> >> that Holyfield should have been disqualified.
> >He WAS disqualified.
>
> Right, once that result is recorded, it is hard to reverse.
He hasn't TRIED to reverse it. What are you talking about?
> However, because the victim of Holyfield's foul was knocked out, he himself
> was not allowed, under amateur boxing rules, to fight for the Gold medal (or
> anywhere for a
> month).
Quite correct.
> Thus the winner of the Gold medal received a walkover. Thus, a lot went wrong
> and a special dispensation was given to Holyfield while charity was in the
> air.
That's right, because it was obvious to the most casual observer that Evander
would have won the gold medal, and, interestingly enough, would have had no
incentive to intentionally foul! The only possible reason he would have done
what you so blindly assert would have been if he knew he couldn't win! How
absurd!
> >> I cant recall seeing anything like that in the amateurs before.
> >Oh, give me a break. There have been many DQ's in the Olympics.
>
> Again, it is very uncommon for such fouls to occur in the amateurs on a
> break. That is a very important item in amateur boxing that has a honor
> system associated with it.
Please reread my sentence and GIVE ME A BREAK!
> >> >Mills Lane is a Nevada Circuit Court Judge, and someone I consider
> completely
> >> >above reproach.
> >> Under no conditions should anyone consider a judge to be honest just
> because
> >> he is a judge. Quite the opposite: judges are more likely to be offered
> >> bribes than anyone in the country. We had a scandal recently in Illinois
> >> wherein one attorney testified to paying off 30 different judges in the
> >> Chicago area. And that was just one attorney. Bryant Gumble's Public Eye
> >> show had a piece on the subject about 6 months ago.
> >So in your opinion, because he is a judge he must therefore surely be
> crooked.
> >Nice.
>
> I simply say that judicial corruption is a big problem in the US which is very
> underreported. I wonder why Bryant Gumble was the only reporter to bring that
> corruption to our attention.
Slow week in the newsbooth? Monika Lewinsky wouldn't return his calls? Who
knows?
> 30 judges, several of whom went to jail. I doubt most people on this forum
> ever heard anything about it until they heard it here. And they may still not
> believe it since they never heard about it in the press.
How many cops go to prison every year for committing crimes on the beat? Lots!
Don't hear much about that either, do you!
Must be a conspiracy!
Don MacAngus
> >> Note the similarity in Schwarzenegger's chin to Holyfield's.
> >They are not similar at all.
>
> You have to look at the profile (from the side).
Lots of people have pointy chins. Does this mean they all use steroids?
> >> Steroids dramatically increases the proportion of one's weight which is
> >> muscle. And since muscle burns fat, directly reduces the amount of fat in
> the
> >> body, all things being kept equal.
> >Ok, so what does this have to do with Holyfield?
>
> Holyfield has increased dramatically his proportion of muscle content in his
> total weight. He did this so quickly and so enormously that he must have used
> steroids to accomplish it. And I believe that he continues to use steroids.
As a Cruiserweight, Holyfield trained to stay lean and trim. As a heavyweight
he trains to add bulk, and to maintain lean muscle mass. Remember Dolph
Lundgren, the guy who played the Russian fighter in Rocky 4? He was blonde,
tall, and lean. He was actually a kickboxer. In his next film he played in
"Masters of the Universe." He was actually featured on the cover of Muscle 'n
Fitness magazine because he was so incredibly buffed out. He was huge by
comparrison! He said, when he trained for the Rocky movie with Stallone, they
worked so hard for so long that his muscles never had a chance to grow. But
once he had time to get in the gym and work out and then rest, his muscles grew
very nicely. He didn't use steroids.
That's how Holyfield did it. He changed his diet and his training routine in
order to achive a higher weight level.
Now... if you have any evidence to the contrary, please offer it up.
> >Did you know that Micheal Spinks fought as a middleweight in the Olympics,
> and
> >then as a light-heavy, and eventually a heavyweight as a pro? Did you know
> that
> >Cassius Clay was a light-heavy as an amateur, and a heavy as a pro? It's
> >nothing new, nor unusual.
>
> Age has a lot to do with this. Clay/Ali was 18 when he wont the Gold medal in
> 1960. That is like a football player's first year of college. There is still
> a lot of growing to do, naturally.
And training and diet have nothing to do with it, naturally.
> >> Schwarzenegger definitely does have that chin and a similar forehead to
> >> Holyfield.
> >I disagree.
>
> With a guy like Schwarzenegger, you have been watching him so long that you
> may have simply become used to the shape of his chin.
I have books about him that show pictures of when he was like 4 years old. He
has the same split-tooth grin and chin line. So does his father.
> >> And heart trouble, a tell tale sign of steroid abuse.
> >Arnold's heart trouble is not reportedly of the nature related to steroid
> abuse,
> >at least according to the reports I have read. If you have seen otherwise,
> >please list it here for all of us to see.
>
> Schwarzenegger has an expensive public relations firm working for him; what do
> you think they are going to claim. That he is a walking example of steroid
> abuse and how steroids can kill you? Perhaps if it brings him to his
> deathbed, like Alzado, that might develop. Definitely not yet. But the word
> is that he will not be in Terminator III. His marketability may have been
> damaged already.
The thing is, he ISN'T a walking example of steroid abuse. But there are some
people who are. They have blood-filled cysts on thier livers, incredible acne
on their faces, and especially on their backs. They have uncontrolled rages and
injuries to the connective tissues, since steroids do great for the muscles, but
not much for the tendons or cartelidge. Arnold has never exhibited these
problems.
> >> Holyfield also claimed heart problems impaired his performance in the 1st
> >> fight with Moorer.
> >Shoulder problems. Holyfield always said he knew his heart was ok.
>
> That is not what I heard. And I thought he was the source of that information
> about his heart. He may have chosen to deny it later, when he realized that
> such admissions could be interpreted as evidence of steroid abuse.
No, the "corrupt press" is the source of the heart rumor. He has always said it
was his shoulder. The Mayo Clinic diagnosed his heart problem, and then
retested him, found that their first diagnosis was incorrect, and then retracted
it. These kinds of problems don't just heal up. They blew the call the first
time. The reason they missed it was because Holyfield's people over medicated
him for the pain in his shoulder, and the gave him too much fluid to rehydrate
him after the fight. As a result, his took on an irregular beat, and based on
this, the clinic gave the wrong diagnosis.
That's the story. But don't take my word for it, check it out. But take my
advice... don't trust the "corrupt media" or the "boxing industry." They're all
crooked.
> Florence Griffith Joyner is now believed more than ever to have abused
> steroids, heavily. I wish it was not true but I really thought that was a man
> running next to Evelyn Ashford in the 100 meter dash.
Reports are that she was genetically a male (as far as her X and Y chromosomes),
so she could have seemed male, and not have taken steroids.
> >> Football players that I can think of right now, Harry Carson, Lyle Alzado,
> >> Brian Bosworth.
> >None of them had an elongated chin.
>
> You have to look at the profile (from the side).
Whatever.
> >Could be. So you don't know. Yet you make these baseless assertions, as if
> you
> >have some sort of informed knowledge about it.
>
> Thank goodness I do not have intimate knowledge of steroids. However, I do
> recognize abuse of steroids.
You think you do. But you don't know.
> Some hide it more than others. As someone here has stated today, it is the
> persistent unabated abuse of steroids which causes the chin to enlarge.
Actually, it was stated that abuse of Human Growth Hormone is what causes that.
Get your facts straight before you attempt to spew them.
Now if you want to see someone who DOES have "that look"... I'm talking about
HUGE upper body, unearthly strength, long tapery fingers, real heavy cranium,
and a long pointy chin, check out that Russian heavyweight Olympic wrestler who
is so famous for picking guys up and throwing them over his shoulder onto their
heads. Jeff Blatnik even said if there was ever a candidate for abuse, it was
him.
> >> The states seem to be working in unison right now.
> >How do you figure?
> >> Perhaps this is because they have a common enemy and whipping boy in Mike
> >> Tyson.
>
> >Mike Tyson would probably be granted a boxing license in several states if he
>
> >applied. He has not applied.
>
> Actually, I do not believe that is true. The inside word was that New Jersey
> was going to reject him and there arent many significant venues in whichit is
> worthwhile to fight.
> The corrupt sports press has whipped up an enormous amount of hysteria about
> Tyson and he may well be fighting overseas before long. He certainly does not
> owe the US boxing scene any favors.
Only every dollar he has ever earned.
> >> Actually I was indeed intending to refer to androstenedione.
> >Andro is not a steroid. It is a drug (I don't want to get too technical
> here,
> >since I will quickly be getting in over my head) that increases testosterone
> >levels. It does give steroid-like benefits, so I have read, but not to the
> >degree, nor at the same rate as do anabolics. Andro is an over-the-counter
> >drug, available at pharmacys and GNC stores.
>
> Right, that was my point. Since androstenedione increases the levels of
> steroids in the body in the body and is legal, cheating athletes can claim
> their massive muscle development can claim androstenedione was responsible,
> not regular steroids. We should ban anything that has effects that appear to
> be anything like steroids.
You mean we should ban things like weight lifting, wrestling, and gymnastics.
These are the things you can do to attain a bodybuilder's physique.
> >No... the proper way to say that is... in your opinion, through the abuse of
> >steroids.
> >Now, if you could provide something other than anecdotal evidence of this,
> >perhaps we could get somewhere.
>
> Yes, that is my opinion.
At last!!!
> As I have said, he has the tell tale enormous muscle weight gain, the enlarged
> chin bone structure, and the concomitant heart trouble which he complained
> about after the 1st Moorer fight.
You have not absorbed a word I have said. Nor have you attempted to refute it.
You simply spew back the same, unaltered arguement, like a broken record.
> Thus Foreman may have also increased his bone structure weight proportion
> significantly, as well.
Now you accuse George Foreman of using steroids. Amazing.
zsite
Mark Brown wrote in message
Ed. I don't believe that, take a look at
cycling Tour de France, all the drugs
they are using today and get caught with, I
knew this some 15 years ago.
And as I told I am no expert, new drugs are
being tested as we speak.
There always will be new products, sport will
be something for lawyers to
fight for this is legal and the other is an
illegal drug.
We are not only talking about steroids here,
there are an awful lot of other
(very dangerous) drugs which will enhance
your performance of any kind.
By the way an Russian doctor working for some
Tour de France team is still
in jail for possessing STP, NOT because one
of his team members is tested positive.
They are all tested severely and they are all
tested negative, although they where all
loaded with many enhancing drugs.
>
>>Especially this last kind deserve special
>>attention, I am talking about
>>(Human) Grow Hormone (GH), known as STH.
>>This is a VERY expensive drug, which is
made
>>synthetic since 1980,
>>before it was made from human origin, this
>>was very dangerous, because it
>>could be polluted with all kinds of viral
>>infections like hepatitis and aids.
>>It is still produced in the former USSR
from
>>human origin and costs only
>>a fraction off the synthetic version.
>>Some have suggested to the industry to
"mark"
>>these products, so if you ever
>>use a marked drug, you be marked as a user
>>for life!
>
>I assume you mean they may carry any
contaminant virus for life.
Ed : No, these " markers" get into your cells
and will be traceable for life.
>
>>This solution will simply result in a two
way
>>production line, one marked and the
>>other one unmarked, this last product will
be
>>even more expensive.
>>Therefore some people will take a Camille
and
>>use the USSR version.
>
>No idea what a Camille is.
Ed : sorry, I meant "gamble" .(spelling
check)
>
>>So IMO, this will never lead to a healthier
>>ore more honest sport.
>>Bottom line is : if there is no way to
check,
>>forget all these regulations.
>
>
>Fighters training honestly for a fight must
know that the opponent is doing
>the same. Otherwise, we will have an arms
race for all kinds of cheating
>which will corrupt the sport. Boxing will
become a contest of drug
>addiction and abuse rather than of natural
skill and determined training.
>
Ed. I am afraid it is true.
Beast of Bourbon
>Acts which he has clearly practised in the gym.
"Practised"? Hey, so you *are* a hoser. I thought as much. Narrows down my
list of suspects.
Oops... almost forgot...
Free speech! Prove me wrong. The press doesn't report these things. Mills
Lane is on steroids. Unauthorized reproduction of the material herein without
the consent of the author is grounds for impeachment. Have a nice day. Free
speech! Cedric Kushner is flaming homo. Prove me wrong!
Mark of Bourbon
Do YOU work for the boxing industry?
Mark Brown
>cycling Tour de France, all the drugs
>they are using today and get caught with, I
>knew this some 15 years ago.
>And as I told I am no expert, new drugs are
>being tested as we speak.
>There always will be new products, sport will
>be something for lawyers to
>fight for this is legal and the other is an
>illegal drug.
>We are not only talking about steroids here,
>there are an awful lot of other
>(very dangerous) drugs which will enhance
>your performance of any kind.
>By the way an Russian doctor working for some
>Tour de France team is still
>in jail for possessing STP, NOT because one
>of his team members is tested positive.
>They are all tested severely and they are all
>tested negative, although they where all
>loaded with many enhancing drugs.
>>>And yes, I am convinced Holifield use(d) it,
Mark Brown
>> You have to look at the profile (from the side).
>
>Lots of people have pointy chins. Does this mean they all use steroids?
No, but it is a strong indication which must be taken into account with
other indicators including a comparison with the chin before the steroid
abuse may have occurred.
>> >> Steroids dramatically increases the proportion of one's weight which
is
>> >> muscle. And since muscle burns fat, directly reduces the amount of
fat in
>> the
>> >> body, all things being kept equal.
>> >Ok, so what does this have to do with Holyfield?
>>
>> Holyfield has increased dramatically his proportion of muscle content in
his
>> total weight. He did this so quickly and so enormously that he must have
used
>> steroids to accomplish it. And I believe that he continues to use
steroids.
>
>As a Cruiserweight, Holyfield trained to stay lean and trim. As a
heavyweight
>he trains to add bulk, and to maintain lean muscle mass. Remember Dolph
>Lundgren, the guy who played the Russian fighter in Rocky 4? He was
blonde,
>tall, and lean.
Isnt he still blond ?
>He was actually a kickboxer. In his next film he played in
>"Masters of the Universe." He was actually featured on the cover of Muscle
'n
>Fitness magazine because he was so incredibly buffed out. He was huge by
>comparrison! He said, when he trained for the Rocky movie with Stallone,
they
>worked so hard for so long that his muscles never had a chance to grow.
But
>once he had time to get in the gym and work out and then rest, his muscles
grew
>very nicely. He didn't use steroids.
I did notice how bulked up Lundgren was in some movie a couple of years ago.
And he has the chin. I would be amazed if he did not use steroids to bulk
up. Stallone probably taught him the correct dosages during shoots of the
movie. Interesting how muscular Linda Hamilton looked in Terminator 2.
Looked like she got tips from Schwarzenegger a couple of months before the
movie. She was cycling that big rifle like it was a stick of lipstick.
>That's how Holyfield did it. He changed his diet and his training routine
in
>order to achive a higher weight level.
>
>Now... if you have any evidence to the contrary, please offer it up.
As I have said, Holyfield has the rapid muscle bulk gain, he has muscle
bulk rippling uniformly all over his body, he has the chin and he has the
heart trouble, which is associated with steroid abuse.
>> >Did you know that Micheal Spinks fought as a middleweight in the
Olympics,
>> and
>> >then as a light-heavy, and eventually a heavyweight as a pro? Did you
know
>> that
>> >Cassius Clay was a light-heavy as an amateur, and a heavy as a pro?
It's
>> >nothing new, nor unusual.
>>
>> Age has a lot to do with this. Clay/Ali was 18 when he wont the Gold
medal in
>> 1960. That is like a football player's first year of college. There is
still
>> a lot of growing to do, naturally.
>
>And training and diet have nothing to do with it, naturally.
Not the kind of sudden and dramatic effects that are the subject here. But
there appear to be various substances other than steroids out there that are
being discovered in caves and elsewhere that are being claimed to have
comparable effects. If these claims turn out to be true, they also should
be banned.
>> >> Schwarzenegger definitely does have that chin and a similar forehead
to
>> >> Holyfield.
>> >I disagree.
>>
>> With a guy like Schwarzenegger, you have been watching him so long that
you
>> may have simply become used to the shape of his chin.
>
>I have books about him that show pictures of when he was like 4 years old.
He
>has the same split-tooth grin and chin line. So does his father.
I would have to see that myself. He has already admitted to steroid abuse
so I dont see the point.
Schwarzenegger is not practising sports against opponents anymore, so I dont
consider his issues to be all that important right now.
>> >> Holyfield also claimed heart problems impaired his performance in the
1st
>> >> fight with Moorer.
>> >Shoulder problems. Holyfield always said he knew his heart was ok.
>>
>> That is not what I heard. And I thought he was the source of that
information
>> about his heart. He may have chosen to deny it later, when he realized
that
>> such admissions could be interpreted as evidence of steroid abuse.
>
>No, the "corrupt press" is the source of the heart rumor. He has always
said it
>was his shoulder. The Mayo Clinic diagnosed his heart problem, and then
>retested him, found that their first diagnosis was incorrect, and then
retracted
>it. These kinds of problems don't just heal up. They blew the call the
first
>time. The reason they missed it was because Holyfield's people over
medicated
>him for the pain in his shoulder, and the gave him too much fluid to
rehydrate
>him after the fight. As a result, his took on an irregular beat, and based
on
>this, the clinic gave the wrong diagnosis.
>That's the story. But don't take my word for it, check it out.
I have checked it out. The very respected medical institution made a
diagnosis that he had heart trouble. Then when Holyfield found out this
could ruin his opportunity to fight for big money and could tag him as a
victim of steroid abuse, he most likely went back there and forced them to
test him under different conditions so he could pass the test. A similar
development occurred with a basketball player named Reggie Lewis a few years
ago. The hospital quickly retested him and cleared his heart for continued
basketball play. He dropped dead a few months later on the basketball
court.
The 2nd doctor is being sued by Lewis's widow.
>> >Could be. So you don't know. Yet you make these baseless assertions,
as if
>> you
>> >have some sort of informed knowledge about it.
>>
>> Thank goodness I do not have intimate knowledge of steroids. However, I
do
>> recognize abuse of steroids.
>
>You think you do. But you don't know.
>
>> Some hide it more than others. As someone here has stated today, it is
the
>> persistent unabated abuse of steroids which causes the chin to enlarge.
>
>Actually, it was stated that abuse of Human Growth Hormone is what causes
that.
>Get your facts straight before you attempt to spew them.
False. The person said that all anabolic steroids will cause chin
enlargement.
>Now if you want to see someone who DOES have "that look"... I'm talking
about
>HUGE upper body, unearthly strength, long tapery fingers, real heavy
cranium,
>and a long pointy chin, check out that Russian heavyweight Olympic wrestler
who
>is so famous for picking guys up and throwing them over his shoulder onto
their
>heads. Jeff Blatnik even said if there was ever a candidate for abuse, it
was
>him.
Certainly the Russians are credited with inventing steroids in the first
place, back in the late 1940s. As long as I can remember, they have
dominated weight lifting.
>> Actually, I do not believe that is true. The inside word was that New
Jersey
>> was going to reject him and there arent many significant venues in
whichit is
>> worthwhile to fight.
>> The corrupt sports press has whipped up an enormous amount of hysteria
about
>> Tyson and he may well be fighting overseas before long. He certainly
does not
>> owe the US boxing scene any favors.
>Only every dollar he has ever earned.
It is Tyson who has brought the masses to pay their money to the boxing
world. The period before he came on the scene was not as healthy as when he
was the champion. Certainly not in the heavyweight division. Tyson and
Holyfield made $30 Million apiece in the 1997 fight. There is nowhere near
that kind of money for another fight. I read that Holyfield is being
offered $20 Million for the Lewis fight. Nowhere near last year's record
and Lewis is a popular world champion and is more likely to draw an
international audience to the fight. (that is, if Holyfield ever signs for
the fight).
>> Right, that was my point. Since androstenedione increases the levels of
>> steroids in the body in the body and is legal, cheating athletes can
claim
>> their massive muscle development can claim androstenedione was
responsible,
>> not regular steroids. We should ban anything that has effects that
appear to
>> be anything like steroids.
>
>You mean we should ban things like weight lifting, wrestling, and
gymnastics.
>These are the things you can do to attain a bodybuilder's physique.
Absolutely not. But weight lifting and other exercise often have little or
too slow effect alone in increasing muscle mass.
>> >No... the proper way to say that is... in your opinion, through the
abuse of
>> >steroids.
>> >Now, if you could provide something other than anecdotal evidence of
this,
>> >perhaps we could get somewhere.
>>
>> Yes, that is my opinion.
>At last!!!
The conclusion that Holyfield used steroids is an obvious result of the
numerous facts that indicate that he is a steroid abuser.
>> As I have said, he has the tell tale enormous muscle weight gain, the
enlarged
>> chin bone structure, and the concomitant heart trouble which he
complained
>> about after the 1st Moorer fight.
>You have not absorbed a word I have said. Nor have you attempted to refute
it.
>You simply spew back the same, unaltered arguement, like a broken record.
Again, you have not disproved my points. Holyfield meets all the main
criteria for a steroid abuser. One of these days the 2nd doctor to clear
Holyfield of a heart condition previously diagnosed may be sued by
Holyfield's widow, just as in Lewis's case.
>
>> Thus Foreman may have also increased his bone structure weight proportion
>> significantly, as well.
>Now you accuse George Foreman of using steroids. Amazing.
Obviously I meant Holyfield, not Foreman. As I have already said, Foreman
is naturally a big guy. I have no reason to believe he has ever used
anything like that.
Mark Brown
Mark Brown
<
No, but it is a strong indication which must be taken into account with
other indicators including a comparison with the chin before the steroid
abuse may have occurred.
<< Age has a lot to do with this. Clay/Ali was 18 when he wont the Gold
medal in
<< 1960. That is like a football player's first year of college. There is
still
<< a lot of growing to do, naturally.
<
<And training and diet have nothing to do with it, naturally.
Not the kind of sudden and dramatic effects that are the subject here. But
there appear to be various substances other than steroids out there that are
being discovered in caves and elsewhere that are being claimed to have
comparable effects. If these claims turn out to be true, they also should be
banned.
<I have books about him that show pictures of when he was like 4 years old.
He
<has the same split-tooth grin and chin line. So does his father.
I would have to see that myself. He has already admitted to steroid abuse so
I dont see the point.
<
<The thing is, he ISN'T a walking example of steroid abuse. But there are
some
<people who are. They have blood-filled cysts on thier livers, incredible
acne
<on their faces, and especially on their backs. They have uncontrolled rages
and
<injuries to the connective tissues, since steroids do great for the
muscles, but
<not much for the tendons or cartelidge. Arnold has never exhibited these
<problems.
Schwarzenegger is not practising sports against opponents anymore, so I dont
consider his issues to be all that important right now.
<No, the "corrupt press" is the source of the heart rumor. He has always
said it
<was his shoulder. The Mayo Clinic diagnosed his heart problem, and then
<retested him, found that their first diagnosis was incorrect, and then
retracted
<it. These kinds of problems don't just heal up. They blew the call the
first
<time. The reason they missed it was because Holyfield's people over
medicated
<him for the pain in his shoulder, and the gave him too much fluid to
rehydrate
<him after the fight. As a result, his took on an irregular beat, and based
on
<this, the clinic gave the wrong diagnosis.
<That's the story. But don't take my word for it, check it out.
I have checked it out. That very respected medical institution made a
diagnosis that he had heart trouble. Then when Holyfield found out this
could ruin his opportunity to fight for big money and could tag him as a
victim of steroid abuse, he most likely went to another doctor and induced
him to test him under different conditions so he could pass the test. A
similar development occurred with a basketball player named Reggie Lewis a
few years ago. The hospital quickly retested him and cleared his heart for
continued basketball play. He dropped dead a few months later on the
basketball court.
The 2nd doctor is being sued by Lewis's widow.
<Actually, it was stated that abuse of Human Growth Hormone is what causes
that.
<Get your facts straight before you attempt to spew them.
False. The person said that all anabolic steroids will cause chin
enlargement.
<Now if you want to see someone who DOES have "that look"... I'm talking
about
<HUGE upper body, unearthly strength, long tapery fingers, real heavy
cranium,
<and a long pointy chin, check out that Russian heavyweight Olympic wrestler
who
<is so famous for picking guys up and throwing them over his shoulder onto
their
<heads. Jeff Blatnik even said if there was ever a candidate for abuse, it
was
<him.
Certainly the Russians are credited with inventing steroids in the first
place, back in the late 1940s. As long as I can remember, they have
dominated weight lifting. The US figured out steroid manufacture by 1958.
Can you think of any Americans who look like steroids ?
<< The corrupt sports press has whipped up an enormous amount of hysteria
about
<< Tyson and he may well be fighting overseas before long. He certainly does
not
<< owe the US boxing scene any favors.
<Only every dollar he has ever earned.
It is Tyson who has brought the masses to pay their money to the boxing
world. The period before he came on the scene was not as healthy as when he
was the champion. Certainly not in the heavyweight division. Tyson and
Holyfield made $30 Million apiece in the 1997 fight. There is nowhere near
that kind of money for another fight. I read that Holyfield is being offered
$20 Million for the Lewis fight. Nowhere near last year's record and Lewis
is a popular world champion and is more likely to draw an international
audience to the fight. (that is, if Holyfield ever signs for the fight).
<< Right, that was my point. Since androstenedione increases the levels of
<< steroids in the body in the body and is legal, cheating athletes can
claim
<< their massive muscle development can claim androstenedione was
responsible,
<< not regular steroids. We should ban anything that has effects that appear
to
<< be anything like steroids.
<
<You mean we should ban things like weight lifting, wrestling, and
gymnastics.
<These are the things you can do to attain a bodybuilder's physique.
Absolutely not. But weight lifting and other exercise often have little or
too slow effect alone in increasing muscle mass.
<< Yes, that is my opinion.
<At last!!!
The conclusion that Holyfield used steroids is an obvious result of the
numerous facts that indicate that he is a steroid abuser.
<< As I have said, he has the tell tale enormous muscle weight gain, the
enlarged
<< chin bone structure, and the concomitant heart trouble which he
complained
<< about after the 1st Moorer fight.
<You have not absorbed a word I have said. Nor have you attempted to refute
it.
<You simply spew back the same, unaltered arguement, like a broken record.
Again, you have not disproved my points. Holyfield meets all the main
criteria for a steroid abuser. One of these days the 2nd doctor to clear
Holyfield of a heart condition previously diagnosed may be sued by
Holyfield's widow, just as in Lewis's case.
<
<< Thus Foreman may have also increased his bone structure weight proportion
<< significantly, as well.
<Now you accuse George Foreman of using steroids. Amazing.
Obviously I meant Holyfield, not Foreman. As I have already said, Foreman is
Mark Brown
>
>> Age has a lot to do with this. Clay/Ali was 18 when he wont the Gold
medal in
>> 1960. That is like a football player's first year of college. There is
still
>> a lot of growing to do, naturally.
>
>> The corrupt sports press has whipped up an enormous amount of hysteria
about
>> Tyson and he may well be fighting overseas before long. He certainly does
not
>> owe the US boxing scene any favors.
>Only every dollar he has ever earned.
It is Tyson who has brought the masses to pay their money to the boxing
world. The period before he came on the scene was not as healthy as when he
was the champion. Certainly not in the heavyweight division. Tyson and
Holyfield made $30 Million apiece in the 1997 fight. There is nowhere near
that kind of money for another fight. I read that Holyfield is being offered
$20 Million for the Lewis fight. Nowhere near last year's record and Lewis
is a popular world champion and is more likely to draw an international
audience to the fight. (that is, if Holyfield ever signs for the fight).
>You mean we should ban things like weight lifting, wrestling, and
gymnastics.
>These are the things you can do to attain a bodybuilder's physique.
Absolutely not. But weight lifting and other exercise often have little or
too slow effect alone in increasing muscle mass.
>> Yes, that is my opinion.
>At last!!!
The conclusion that Holyfield used steroids is an obvious result of the
numerous facts that indicate that he is a steroid abuser.
>You have not absorbed a word I have said. Nor have you attempted to refute
it.
>You simply spew back the same, unaltered arguement, like a broken record.
Again, you have not disproved my points. Holyfield meets all the main
criteria for a steroid abuser. One of these days the 2nd doctor to clear
Holyfield of a heart condition previously diagnosed may be sued by
Holyfield's widow, just as in Lewis's case.
>Now you accuse George Foreman of using steroids. Amazing.
Mark Brown
borderline heavyweight/light heavyweight to a very muscular heavyweight.
I have always assumed that he used steroids to put on the extra muscle. In
addition, Holyfield's chin and ears have that exaggerated shape that is
often associated with steroids.
Foreman often jokes about Holyfield even having muscles in his toes. I
think the steroid use by Holyfield is obvious to Foreman too.
I would like to know what blood tests the rating boards do of licensed
fighters to test for steroids and with what regularity do they perform any
such tests ?
Has Holyfield ever been asked the question:
"have you ever used steroids ? "
Mark Brown
Beast of Bourbon wrote in message <361d69c8...@news.earthlink.net>...
>On Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:41:05 -0400, "Mark Brown" <mkb...@mediaone.net>
wrote:
>
>>Acts which he has clearly practised in the gym.
>
Mark Brown
borderline heavyweight/light heavyweight to a very muscular heavyweight.
I have always assumed that he used steroids to put on the extra muscle. In
addition, Holyfield's chin and ears have that exaggerated shape that is
often associated with steroids.
Foreman often jokes about Holyfield even having muscles in his toes. I
think the steroid use by Holyfield is obvious to Foreman too.
I would like to know what blood tests the rating boards do of licensed
fighters to test for steroids and with what regularity do they perform any
such tests ?
Has Holyfield ever been asked the question:
"have you ever used steroids ? "
Mark Brown
Beast of Bourbon wrote in message <361d69c8...@news.earthlink.net>...
>On Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:41:05 -0400, "Mark Brown" <mkb...@mediaone.net>
wrote:
>
>>Acts which he has clearly practised in the gym.
>
>"Practised"?
Strange things surprise you.
Mark Brown
borderline heavyweight/light heavyweight to a very muscular heavyweight.
I have always assumed that he used steroids to put on the extra muscle. In
addition, Holyfield's chin and ears have that exaggerated shape that is
often associated with steroids.
Foreman often jokes about Holyfield even having muscles in his toes. I
think the steroid use by Holyfield is obvious to Foreman too.
I would like to know what blood tests the rating boards do of licensed
fighters to test for steroids and with what regularity do they perform any
such tests ?
Has Holyfield ever been asked the question:
"have you ever used steroids ? "
Mark Brown
>>Acts which he has clearly practised in the gym.
>
>"Practised"? Hey, so you *are* a hoser. I thought as much. Narrows down
my
>list of suspects.
>
>Oops... almost forgot...
>Mark of Bourbon
Mark Brown
>By the way an Russian doctor working for some
>Tour de France team is still
>in jail for possessing STP, NOT because one
>of his team members is tested positive.
>They are all tested severely and they are all
>tested negative, although they where all
>loaded with many enhancing drugs.
It is about time strong measures were taken against steroid use. They also
need to locate the laboratories where these substances are manufactured.
However, some of those places may be in Russia. The Russians are believed to
be the pioneers of steroid development and are believed to have scooped up
the lions' share of weightlifing medals in the 1952 Olympics because of
steroids. The US then perfected steroids in response in 1958 and its been
wide open since then.
I would be interested to know what these masking drugs are. The rule should
be that unless these masking drugs can be ingested through one's steak and
potatoes, it should be banned along with the illegal performance enhancing
drug that it is supposed to mask.
Anabolic steroids are said to have some of the addictive characteristics of
other addictive drugs. Withdrawal symptoms, depression and denial. And what
are termed 'roid rages'. Holyfield appeared to be in a 'roid rage' when he
headbutted, thumbed, hit low and kicked Tyson numerous times in just 3
rounds of fighting.
>>I assume you mean they may carry any
>>contaminant virus for life.
>
>Ed : No, these " markers" get into your cells
>and will be traceable for life.
I assume this means that athletic event testing procedures will detect the
presence of this substance forever. Sounds as if they are extracting this
substance from their Siberian prison's best.
>>Fighters training honestly for a fight must
>>know that the opponent is doing
>>the same. Otherwise, we will have an arms
>>race for all kinds of cheating
>>which will corrupt the sport. Boxing will
>>become a contest of drug
>>addiction and abuse rather than of natural
>>skill and determined training.
>Ed. I am afraid it is true.
It sounds as if we need to expend a little more resources to combat this
problem. Otherwise we will end up with a sport world full of drug addicts.
Mark Brown
Mark Brown
see the similarity with Holyfield. I have not studied that site in detail.
If that does not help, perhaps nothing will help.
Mark Brown
Beast of Bourbon
>Again, you have not disproved my points. Holyfield meets all the main
>criteria for a steroid abuser.
And you, hoser, meet virtually all the main criteria for a troll. To wit:
- Sudden appearance, like an ass rash
- No Dejanews history/profile, or one filled with trolling efforts in other ng's
- Unsubstantiated, outrageous claims; "pulling a Coleman"
- Vehement denial of his/her trollhood, or passionate pride in same
- Repetitive responses in lieu of actual replies; "parroting"
- Butting into multiple threads to announce the same tired crap; "baiting"
- Unprovoked, pointless attacking of newsgroup regulars; "xydthping"
- General asinine behavior (e.g., starting stupid threads)
The only one you don't yet meet is:
- Liberal use of profanity and racial slurs; "don griffening"
But I imagine that one is coming up.
Beast of Bourbon
>Some time around 6 years ago, Evander Holyfield made the transition from a
>borderline heavyweight/light heavyweight to a very muscular heavyweight.
> (clipped & pasted crap snipped)
You had to send this regurgitated bullshit three times? Hoser, watch your blood
pressure, eh. I know I'm getting under your frozen skin and making you look
like a total ass (actually you're doing that on your own). Chug down an Elsinor
and relax.
Hmm... I wonder what's the deal with these Canadians? They all sound either
like Chee-type lunatics or hypersensitive eggheads like the Peart-meister. This
"Mark Brown" is an odd combination of both. Hmm...
Beast of Bourbon
wrote:
>I'm really starting to wonder about you...
Whew, Big D, it took you a while, but you eventually came around.
Taylor
Bourbon) wrote:
>Hmm... I wonder what's the deal with these Canadians? They all sound either
>like Chee-type lunatics or hypersensitive eggheads like the Peart-meister. This
>"Mark Brown" is an odd combination of both. Hmm...
>
>Mark of Bourbon
>Do YOU work for the boxing industry?
Your troll-baiting is much less appealing (and FWIW it's quite
appealing normally) when you use this Hoover-era
igloo-cliche-reminiscent forgot-temporarily-about-the-DEWline
Me-Yankee-you-silly-foreign-person-ha-ha-ha "tactic". I realise/ze
you're not looking for endorsements here, so I mention this just in
passing -- free marketing research if you will -- just on the off
chance you ever want to...I don't know...*sell* something to a
Canadian.
But please, return to the troll-baiting. I'm back to the bleachers and
a number of boxing threads that interest me. Did I mention Stephane
Ouellette...
Taylor
Don MacAngus
> >I'm really starting to wonder about you...
>
> Whew, Big D, it took you a while, but you eventually came around.
Just tried to give him a chance...
Don MacAngus
> >> You have to look at the profile (from the side).
> >
> >Lots of people have pointy chins. Does this mean they all use steroids?
>
> No...
[snip]
Good. Glad we agree. Now stop saying that shit.
> >> Holyfield has increased dramatically his proportion of muscle content in
> his
> >> total weight. He did this so quickly and so enormously that he must have
> used
> >> steroids to accomplish it. And I believe that he continues to use
> steroids.
> >
> >As a Cruiserweight, Holyfield trained to stay lean and trim. As a
> heavyweight
> >he trains to add bulk, and to maintain lean muscle mass. Remember Dolph
> >Lundgren, the guy who played the Russian fighter in Rocky 4? He was blonde,
> >tall, and lean.
>
> Isnt he still blond ?
No. He has shaved his head. Now shut up and read.
> >He was actually a kickboxer. In his next film he played in
> >"Masters of the Universe." He was actually featured on the cover of Muscle
> 'n
> >Fitness magazine because he was so incredibly buffed out. He was huge by
> >comparrison! He said, when he trained for the Rocky movie with Stallone,
> they
> >worked so hard for so long that his muscles never had a chance to grow. But
> >once he had time to get in the gym and work out and then rest, his muscles
> grew
> >very nicely. He didn't use steroids.
>
> I did notice how bulked up Lundgren was in some movie a couple of years ago.
> And he has the chin.
He does not, you absolute broken record!
> I would be amazed if he did not use steroids to bulk up.
They amazed you shall be, you moron.
> Stallone probably taught him the correct dosages during shoots of the movie.
Stallone didn't use steroids either, you utter nincompoop!
> Interesting how muscular Linda Hamilton looked in Terminator 2. Looked like
> she got tips from Schwarzenegger a couple of months before the movie. She was
> cycling that big rifle like it was a stick of lipstick.
She was lean, fit and trim! Not roided out, you loser!
> >That's how Holyfield did it. He changed his diet and his training routine in
>
> >order to achive a higher weight level.
> >
> >Now... if you have any evidence to the contrary, please offer it up.
>
> As I have said, Holyfield has the rapid muscle bulk gain, he has muscle bulk
> rippling uniformly all over his body, he has the chin and he has the heart
> trouble, which is associated with steroid abuse.
Have you heard nothing I have said, you veritible parrot?
What you have listed above are your opinions, based on your personal
observations. What I asked for was evidence. This is not evidence. Give me
evidence, or shut the hell up. I don't want to just keep hearing you repeat
your opinions over and over again.
> >> Age has a lot to do with this. Clay/Ali was 18 when he wont the Gold medal
> in
> >> 1960. That is like a football player's first year of college. There is
> still
> >> a lot of growing to do, naturally.
> >
> >And training and diet have nothing to do with it, naturally.
>
> Not the kind of sudden and dramatic effects that are the subject here.
Sudden and dramatic. The guy kills himself to get down to 190 in his last
Cruiserweight fight, and then, several months later, moves up to heavyweight and
fights are 205. Most of the weight he lost to make the lower weight was water,
so he probably weighed in around 200 at that time, and that's after training.
Now that he is a heavy, he wan switch his regiment to weight gaining, rather
than losing. And even though he's been fighting as a heavy for about 10 years
(can't recall how long it has been), he's still below 220.
Yes. Sudden, and dramatic weight gain.
My ass.
> >> With a guy like Schwarzenegger, you have been watching him so long that you
>
> >> may have simply become used to the shape of his chin.
> >
> >I have books about him that show pictures of when he was like 4 years old.
> He
> >has the same split-tooth grin and chin line. So does his father.
>
> I would have to see that myself.
And you may. Head down to B. Dalton. Those books are still on sale.
> He has already admitted to steroid abuse so I dont see the point.
The point is that steroid use (i.e., just popping a couple of pills for a while)
does not give you these effects. It is the abuse, over a long period of time.
You asshole.
> >The thing is, he ISN'T a walking example of steroid abuse. But there are
> some
> >people who are. They have blood-filled cysts on thier livers, incredible
> acne
> >on their faces, and especially on their backs. They have uncontrolled rages
> and
> >injuries to the connective tissues, since steroids do great for the muscles,
> but
> >not much for the tendons or cartelidge. Arnold has never exhibited these
> >problems.
>
> Schwarzenegger is not practising sports against opponents anymore, so I dont
> consider his issues to be all that important right now.
I guess that means I kicked your ass on this one.
I'll take it.
> >No, the "corrupt press" is the source of the heart rumor. He has always said
> it
> >was his shoulder. The Mayo Clinic diagnosed his heart problem, and then
> >retested him, found that their first diagnosis was incorrect, and then
> retracted
> >it. These kinds of problems don't just heal up. They blew the call the
> first
> >time. The reason they missed it was because Holyfield's people over
> medicated
> >him for the pain in his shoulder, and the gave him too much fluid to
> rehydrate
> >him after the fight. As a result, his took on an irregular beat, and based
> on
> >this, the clinic gave the wrong diagnosis.
>
> >That's the story. But don't take my word for it, check it out.
>
> I have checked it out. The very respected medical institution made a
> diagnosis that he had heart trouble. Then when Holyfield found out this could
> ruin his opportunity to fight for big money and could tag him as a victim of
> steroid abuse, he most likely went back there and forced them to test him
> under different conditions so he could pass the test.
Forced them? Do you think he threatened to use them for a heavy bag?
> A similar development occurred with a basketball player named Reggie Lewis a
> few years ago. The hospital quickly retested him and cleared his heart for
> continued
> basketball play. He dropped dead a few months later on the basketball court.
> The 2nd doctor is being sued by Lewis's widow.
Reggie Lewis was advised not to play ball any more, and was only cleared to play
because he was on medication. This has nothing to do with Holyfield, you
complete ass.
> >> Some hide it more than others. As someone here has stated today, it is the
>
> >> persistent unabated abuse of steroids which causes the chin to enlarge.
> >
> >Actually, it was stated that abuse of Human Growth Hormone is what causes
> that.
> >Get your facts straight before you attempt to spew them.
>
> False. The person said that all anabolic steroids will cause chin
> enlargement.
Not false. Read it again, Parrot boy.
> >> Tyson and he may well be fighting overseas before long. He certainly does
> not
> >> owe the US boxing scene any favors.
> >Only every dollar he has ever earned.
>
> It is Tyson who has brought the masses to pay their money to the boxing
> world.
To the world. Like Las Vegas, Atlantic City, etc. All American cities, all
American cable networks, all American money.
> The period before he came on the scene was not as healthy as when he was the
> champion. Certainly not in the heavyweight division. Tyson and Holyfield made
> $30 Million apiece in the 1997 fight.
Wrong.
> There is nowhere near that kind of money for another fight. I read that
> Holyfield is being offered $20 Million for the Lewis fight. Nowhere near last
> year's record and Lewis is a popular world champion and is more likely to draw
> an international audience to the fight. (that is, if Holyfield ever signs for
> the fight).
Also wrong. Lewis has the reputation of not being able to draw flies to a
fight, which is why all his fights are aired free on HBO.
> >> We should ban anything that has effects that appear to
> >> be anything like steroids.
> >
> >You mean we should ban things like weight lifting, wrestling, and gymnastics.
>
> >These are the things you can do to attain a bodybuilder's physique.
>
> Absolutely not. But weight lifting and other exercise often have little or
> too slow effect alone in increasing muscle mass.
Weight lifting has little or no effect on increasing muscle mass?
> >> Yes, that is my opinion.
> >At last!!!
>
> The conclusion that Holyfield used steroids is an obvious result of the
> numerous facts that indicate that he is a steroid abuser.
YOUR conclusion that Holyfield used steroids is A result of YOUR OBSERVATIONS
and the MEANDERINGS OF YOUR MIND that SOMEHOW HAS COME OUT YOUR ASS that YOU
THINK (if you can really call it that) he is a steroid abuser.
> >You have not absorbed a word I have said. Nor have you attempted to refute
> it.
> >You simply spew back the same, unaltered arguement, like a broken record.
>
> Again, you have not disproved my points.
How could I? You say that Holyfield takes steroids. I point out that this is
your opinion, not a fact, and that there is a lot of factual evidence (which I
then list) that indicated that he is NOT. You are asking me to prove that he is
NOT a steroid user. Guess I'll have to follow him around and hand him a cup
once a day in order to satisfy you, eh?
WHAT an IDIOT you are!
> Holyfield meets all the main criteria for a steroid abuser.
He meets NONE of the criteris of a steroid abuser.
> >> Thus Foreman may have also increased his bone structure weight proportion
> >> significantly, as well.
> >Now you accuse George Foreman of using steroids. Amazing.
>
> Obviously I meant Holyfield, not Foreman.
Obviously? You said Foreman!
> As I have already said, Foreman is naturally a big guy. I have no reason to
> believe he has ever used anything like that.
What about his pointy chin???
You know, I went against my better judgement, and I gave you a chance. You are
utterly incapable of having a factual, intelligent discussion, and I will hereby
not waste any bandwidth by speaking to you.
Get bent.
karma kommando
=>On Fri, 9 Oct 1998 04:21:21 -0400, "Mark Brown" <mkb...@mediaone.net> wrote:
=>
=>>Some time around 6 years ago, Evander Holyfield made the transition from a
=>>borderline heavyweight/light heavyweight to a very muscular heavyweight.
=>> (clipped & pasted crap snipped)
=>
=>You had to send this regurgitated bullshit three times? Hoser, watch your blood
=>pressure, eh. I know I'm getting under your frozen skin and making you look
=>like a total ass (actually you're doing that on your own). Chug down an Elsinor
=>and relax.
He sent it more than three times. I think I've opened the same simpleminded crap at
least 8 times. He doesn't even have the decency to alter the wording a bit.
=>Hmm... I wonder what's the deal with these Canadians? They all sound either
=>like Chee-type lunatics or hypersensitive eggheads like the Peart-meister. This
=>"Mark Brown" is an odd combination of both. Hmm...
Brown is a colossal dork, but it's pretty unlikely that he's Canadian (and
right-thinking Canadians resent the slur.)
mediaone.net is listed in InterNIC as based in Norcross, GA. He's posting from
mkbrown.ne.mediaone.net, which indicates to me that he's likely in the northeastern
US. He's one o' YOURS.
--
* alt.fan.art-bell Crossing Guard
* Skep-Ti-Cult supplicant
* Official bRay Beknighted AFA-B BULLY
* Brother Emeritus of the Unholy Brotherhood
*
* "Tomorrow the Masked Man will be outside the Student Union
* talking about the problems of the world. I will be joining
* him as well as with Waffles the Clown."
* - Doctress Neutopia
Mark Brown
dirtier fighter in the both Tyson-Holyfield
fights. On several occasions in the 1997 fight
Holyfield committed all of the following
fouls:
1) hit Tyson below the belt, several times,
2) headbutted Tyson in the face, several
times, causing a serious cut,
3) thumbed Tyson in the eye on several
occasions, including twice immediately after
the headbutt which caused the cut (this helps
proves the headbutt was intentional and likely
practised by Holyfield in the gym),
4) kicked Tyson with his knee at least twice.
These are all severe fouls and it was
shocking that the referee did not call any of
these fouls or warn Holyfield in any way.
I am amazed that that same referee was
interviewed by Mr. Schaap on this station and
no mention in specific of this disgraceful
refereeing performance was mentioned. The
referee let the fight get out of control and
caused Tyson (who is generally a clean
fighter) to snap.
Unfortunately, the corrupt sports press has
not informed the public of the truth about
this fight.
I have never seen as many fouls committed in
just 3 rounds as Holyfield committed against
Tyson in the 1997 fight.
It is referee Mills Lane who should have been
suspended after this fight.
Mark Brown
>>Again, you have not disproved my points. Holyfield meets all the main
>>criteria for a steroid abuser.
>And you, hoser, meet virtually all the main criteria for a troll. To wit:
>- Sudden appearance, like an ass rash
Free speech. Believe in it.
>- No Dejanews history/profile, or one filled with trolling efforts in other
ng's
No idea what that is.
>- Unsubstantiated, outrageous claims; "pulling a Coleman"
False claim on your part. You have failed to disprove any of my claims.
>- Vehement denial of his/her trollhood, or passionate pride in same
No idea what that is. No interest.
>- Repetitive responses in lieu of actual replies; "parroting"
False. I have responded and reuted yours and others' responses whenever
they have appeared.
>- Butting into multiple threads to announce the same tired crap; "baiting"
Free speech. Believe in it.
>- Unprovoked, pointless attacking of newsgroup regulars; "xydthping"
I have not been attacking anyone here except to challenge members' belief in
free speech.
>- General asinine behavior (e.g., starting stupid threads)
Another false claim on your part.
>The only one you don't yet meet is:
>- Liberal use of profanity and racial slurs; "don griffening"
There is a lot of that on this forum as it is.
>But I imagine that one is coming up.
>Mark of Bourbon
That is so pessimistic. Are you depressed ?
>Do YOU work for the boxing industry?
Here is your repetitive question being answered again: I have never worked
in the boxing industry.
Mark Brown
Mark Brown
blonde,
>> >tall, and lean.
>>
>> Isnt he still blond ?
>No. He has shaved his head.
Shaved it or become bald ? Balding is another tell tale sign of steroid
abuse. Another tell tale sign that Holyfield has.
>Have you heard nothing I have said, you veritible parrot?
What do you think is the most important thing you have said in this exchange
? Let's make it clear.
>What you have listed above are your opinions, based on your personal
>observations. What I asked for was evidence. This is not evidence. Give
me
>evidence, or shut the hell up. I don't want to just keep hearing you
repeat
>your opinions over and over again.
What would you consider to be evidence ? Videotape of Holyfield injected
himself from a bottle labeled "steroids" ?
>Sudden and dramatic. The guy kills himself to get down to 190 in his last
>Cruiserweight fight, and then, several months later, moves up to
heavyweight and
>fights are 205. Most of the weight he lost to make the lower weight was
water,
>so he probably weighed in around 200 at that time, and that's after
training.
>Now that he is a heavy, he wan switch his regiment to weight gaining,
rather
>than losing. And even though he's been fighting as a heavy for about 10
years
>(can't recall how long it has been), he's still below 220.
That is mainly because there is hardly an ounce of fat on Holyfield's body.
Another indicator of steroid abuse. The increased muscle mass burns fat
more quickly and keeps him lighter than others who would have the same bone
and muscle mass naturally.
>And you may. Head down to B. Dalton. Those books are still on sale.
>> He has already admitted to steroid abuse so I dont see the point.
>
>The point is that steroid use (i.e., just popping a couple of pills for a
while)
>does not give you these effects. It is the abuse, over a long period of
time.
Wait, I thought you were just denying that long term steroid abuse enlarges
the chin. Looks like we're making some progress.
>I'll take it.
Sometimes a low threshold for satisfaction is necessary.
>> I have checked it out. The very respected medical institution made a
>> diagnosis that he had heart trouble. Then when Holyfield found out this
could
>> ruin his opportunity to fight for big money and could tag him as a victim
of
>> steroid abuse, he most likely went back there and forced them to test him
>> under different conditions so he could pass the test.
>Forced them? Do you think he threatened to use them for a heavy bag?
Havent you learnt anything in the past week ? Hard cash makes the world go
around. Hard currency. People seldom do a good job when under duresse.
>> A similar development occurred with a basketball player named Reggie
Lewis a
>> few years ago. The hospital quickly retested him and cleared his heart
for
>> continued
>> basketball play. He dropped dead a few months later on the basketball
court.
>> The 2nd doctor is being sued by Lewis's widow.
>
>Reggie Lewis was advised not to play ball any more, and was only cleared to
play
>because he was on medication. This has nothing to do with Holyfield,
It has everything to do with Holyfield. There are all sorts of
controversies swirling about claimed drug abuse on the part of Reggie Lewis.
That will be the central issue in the Lewis trial, if it reaches that point:
what drugs and how much drugs did Reggie Lewis use and did that cause his
heart condition. And did he disclose said drug abuse to the doctor before
the doctor made his diagnosis.
>> False. The person said that all anabolic steroids will cause chin
>> enlargement.
>Not false. Read it again, Parrot boy.
Wait, I thought we already made some progress on this already.
>> The period before he came on the scene was not as healthy as when he was
the
>> champion. Certainly not in the heavyweight division. Tyson and Holyfield
made
>> $30 Million apiece in the 1997 fight.
>Wrong.
Wrong in what respect. What do you believe they were paid ?
>> There is nowhere near that kind of money for another fight. I read that
>> Holyfield is being offered $20 Million for the Lewis fight. Nowhere near
last
>> year's record and Lewis is a popular world champion and is more likely to
draw
>> an international audience to the fight. (that is, if Holyfield ever
signs for
>> the fight).
>Also wrong. Lewis has the reputation of not being able to draw flies to a
>fight, which is why all his fights are aired free on HBO.
That is because major fighters, like Holyfield, are too afraid to fight
Lewis. How many people ever heard of Mavrovich 2 weeks ago.
>YOUR conclusion that Holyfield used steroids is A result of YOUR
OBSERVATIONS
>and the MEANDERINGS OF YOUR MIND that
It is a conclusion many already have drawn. Including others even on this
forum. .Part of being human is the ability to draw accurate conclusions
based on known facts.
Put it this this way: let's say you went outside and looked up and down the
street and saw that the street was wet, puddles everywhere.
Do you think it would be safe to conclude that it was raining earlier that
day ?
Now, the fact is that someone may well have taken a long hose, walked up and
down the street wetting the street to create this false appearance. Perhaps
every single lawn sprinkler on the street gushed out of control and falsely
created this appearance.
But dont you think "rain" would be a safe conclusion to draw ?
>He meets NONE of the criteris of a steroid abuser.
Rubbish.
>You know, I went against my better judgement, and I gave you a chance.
I think you exaggerate how many here care about your judgment making
process.
>Big D
Mark Brown
Mark Brown
>Hmm... I wonder what's the deal with these Canadians?
No "Taylor" is the guy from Canada. He was the guy impersonating me, Mark
Brown, a couple of days ago. The real Mark Brown is not from Canada.
Mark Brown
Mark Brown
>He sent it more than three times. I think I've opened the same simpleminded
crap at
>least 8 times. He doesn't even have the decency to alter the wording a bit.
It has to be re-sent when responding to people who have forgotten the
subject of this discussion and the purpose of forums like this one.
Mark Brown
Mark Brown
degree
>> angle with the boxers before he can call a break.
>I do not imply that. I assert (and he admitted to it) that he was out of
>position.
It has been too long to remember the exact positioning right now, but I do
not recall that the referee was a long way out of position. As I recall, he
was close enough to step forward and prevent Holyfield from landing another
punch.
>I challenge you to offer a single shred of supporting evidence.
>I hereby hold my breath...
Why should I do your home work. He was properly disqualified and only
received a medal because of a deal struck with the Olypic committee. Had
they actually retracted their ruling that the punch was illegal, then they
would have allowed Holyfield to fight in the next fight for the Gold. He was
punished, but not as much as he could have been. I believe that 1984 was
the Olympics where the whole soviet bloc refused to participate. Thus there
was little opposition on the committee to these demands by the US
contingent. We wanted that medal for our count.
>> However, there is no question that the command to break was given,
Holyfield
>> heard it but chose to cheat. That time, he did not escape punishment.
With
>> the widespread corruption of boxing and of the boxing sports press here
in the
>> US, he walks on water,
>> though committed even worse and more dangerous acts. Acts which he has
>> clearly practised in the gym.
>> The referee says that before all professional fights, but that is not the
>> ethic of the amateurs.
>An interesting but totally useless fact.
Wrong. It refutes your claims. Again.
>Big D says, "Holyfield says he didn't hear the break. The ref admitted he
was
>out of position, and that the confusion which led to the DQ was his fault.
This
>is why Holyfield was still given the bronze medal."
Frankly, I do not recall the referee saying that he was out of position. I
believe that Holyfield was given a bronze because he was part of the US
contingent, he might have won the fight (though this is not clear) and there
were no Soviet bloc opposition to doing this favor for the US so we could
count that medal.
>These are facts, independently verifiable through reliable sources.
Such as ?
>Mark Brown says: "After pressure was brought to bear on the referee based
on US
>claims that Holyfield might have gone on to win the fight, the referee did
what
>he could to help the US win that medal."
>See, Mark Brown has absolutely no evidence of this whatever>
>See the difference?
Let me understand this. The fouled fighter was Kevin Barry of New Zealand.
Do you believe it was the New Zealand contingent which went to the IOC and
demanded that Holyfield be given that medal ? How do you believe the medal
favor came about ?
>> If there was any doubt in Holyfield's mind, he should not have hit the
other
>> fighter when he started to move back and dropped his guard.
>I think I have established that there WAS not doubt in Holyfield's mind.
You have not established anything of the sort. How have you proven this ?
>By his admission, he was in the ring, the bell had not rung, both fighters
had been
>advised to protect themselves at all times,
Are you asserting now that the referee gave this warning in this amateur
fight ?
That is not the ethic of amateur boxing. Holyfield committed the cowardly
and unsporting act of hitting an opponent when he backed away and lowered
his guard. He should not have received any medal and should have been
suspended for this act.
>> Those actions in and of themselves should indicate to a clean fighter
that
>> something has happened. Either a break or the round is over.
Holyfield's
>> conduct was indefensible.
>
>That's your opinion. I disagree. So did the ref, and the Olympic
committee,
>which is why they gave him the bronze. End of story.
Again, if they thought he had not fouled, he would have been awarded the win
and allowed to fight next for the Gold.
>That's right, because it was obvious to the most casual observer that
Evander
>would have won the gold medal, and, interestingly enough, would have had no
>incentive to intentionally foul! The only possible reason he would have
done
>what you so blindly assert would have been if he knew he couldn't win! How
>absurd!
Who knows whether Holyfield thought he would win the fight. He might have
been told by his corner or thought that he was behind or that it was too
close to call. In the amateurs, just because you may land heavier blows
does not improve your chance of winning, unlike the professional ranks.
>How many cops go to prison every year for committing crimes on the beat?
Lots!
>Don't hear much about that either, do you!
What does that have to do with Mills Lane ?
>Big D
Mark Brown
Beast of Bourbon
>Brown is a colossal dork, but it's pretty unlikely that he's Canadian (and
>right-thinking Canadians resent the slur.)
>mediaone.net is listed in InterNIC as based in Norcross, GA. He's posting from
>mkbrown.ne.mediaone.net, which indicates to me that he's likely in the northeastern
>US. He's one o' YOURS.
Nah, don't think so. He spells "practice" as "practise" and does a few other
Britishy spellingisms. You know, like Chee does. Maybe he came into this
country because he's on the run from the Mounties.
Beast of Bourbon
>It has to be re-sent when responding to people who have forgotten the
>subject of this discussion and the purpose of forums like this one.
For your information, troll/newbie/idiot, r.s.b. is akin to the wild wild West.
If you're going to put on a badge and play the Sheriff, expect a few outlaws to
come around and show you who's really boss.
Beast of Bourbon
>>Hmm... I wonder what's the deal with these Canadians? They all sound either
>>like Chee-type lunatics or hypersensitive eggheads like the Peart-meister. This
>>"Mark Brown" is an odd combination of both. Hmm...
>
>Your troll-baiting is much less appealing (and FWIW it's quite
>appealing normally) when you use this Hoover-era
>igloo-cliche-reminiscent forgot-temporarily-about-the-DEWline
>Me-Yankee-you-silly-foreign-person-ha-ha-ha "tactic". I realise/ze
>you're not looking for endorsements here, so I mention this just in
>passing -- free marketing research if you will -- just on the off
>chance you ever want to...I don't know...*sell* something to a
>Canadian.
See what I mean? Here's one of the hypersensitive eggheads. <g>
Mark Brown
Holyfield has several indicators of steroid abuse:
1) sudden massive muscle weight gain,
2) uniform muscle gain all over the body -- you cant isolate muscles with
steroids
3) chin enlargement -- like jawbone of Cro-Magnon Man
4) heart trouble -- the heart is a muscle and it becomes misshapen
5) 'roid rage' -- frenzied fouls against Tyson included thumbing,
headbutting, hitting below the belt and kicking.
6) baldness
Mark Brown
>You had to send this regurgitated bullshit three times? Hoser, watch your
blood
>pressure, eh. I know I'm getting under your frozen skin and making you
look
>like a total ass (actually you're doing that on your own). Chug down an
Elsinor
>and relax.
>
>Hmm... I wonder what's the deal with these Canadians? They all sound
either
>like Chee-type lunatics or hypersensitive eggheads like the Peart-meister.
This
>"Mark Brown" is an odd combination of both. Hmm...
>
>Mark of Bourbon
i cheehuahua
I spell just bad...thats my excuse. Here in Canada it is spelt
practice...if I spelt it with an "s" before it's because I smoke crack.
i cheehuahua
i cheehuahua
> >>like Chee-type lunatics or hypersensitive eggheads like the Peart-meister. This
> >>"Mark Brown" is an odd combination of both. Hmm...
> >
> >appealing normally) when you use this Hoover-era
> >igloo-cliche-reminiscent forgot-temporarily-about-the-DEWline
> >Me-Yankee-you-silly-foreign-person-ha-ha-ha "tactic". I realise/ze
> >you're not looking for endorsements here, so I mention this just in
> >passing -- free marketing research if you will -- just on the off
> >chance you ever want to...I don't know...*sell* something to a
> >Canadian.
>
> See what I mean? Here's one of the hypersensitive eggheads. <g>
I think you guys should just send out your main weapon now. Yep I can
see it now, unleash Grandpa Smellzone. Let the wicked witch from down
south have her rampage. She will throw him in a kettle and cook him
like a pig. What is that knick name you guys have for your secret
weapon..... oh yeah I almost forgot 'Wrinkly Satan the California
Raisin'.
i cheehuahua :)
Mark Brown
"The Practice"). The verb is spelled "practise", as in "...you should
practise your spelling".
Mark Brown
Beast of Bourbon wrote in message <36205a03...@news.earthlink.net>...
Beast of Bourbon
>For the record, the noun is spelled "practice" (as in the television show
>"The Practice"). The verb is spelled "practise"...
Maybe in the frozen tundra of the Yukon Territory, where you're shacked up with
a shaved-down Sasquatch, Marky-Mark. In the good ole U.S. of A., the noun and
the verb are spelled "practice." Get a dictionary. Get a clue. Get a sense of
humour, you knob.
Mark Brown
>>subject of this discussion and the purpose of forums like this one.
>
>For your information, troll/newbie/idiot, r.s.b. is akin to the wild wild
West.
>If you're going to put on a badge and play the Sheriff, expect a few
outlaws to
>come around and show you who's really boss.
People have a right to hear the truth. The armies of marketing and
promotion people that you find on forums like this protecting their business
interests and making pointless personal attacks against those who have
something to say are attempting to cheat the readers of these forums out of
their right to hear important information. It is amazing how much of the
content of these forums deal with interfering with another person's right to
speak. ("so and so is in my killfile", "dont respond to him" etc.)
It is totally unamerican.
Viewers of these forums need to recognize that the people sending messages
intending interfere with someone's right to speak are doing so because they
work in the particular industry being discussed and are seeking to protect
that industry, while, usually, not disclosing the fact that they do work
for the industry they are seeing to protect from scrutiny.
Mark Brown
Mark Brown
The Webster claims the 2 spellings are interchangeable as noun and verb. As
they say, they add slang to the dictionary every year.
Mark Brown
Beast of Bourbon
>People have a right to hear the truth. The armies of marketing and
>promotion people that you find on forums like this protecting their business
>interests and making pointless personal attacks against those who have
>something to say are attempting to cheat the readers of these forums out of
>their right to hear important information. It is amazing how much of the
>content of these forums deal with interfering with another person's right to
>speak. ("so and so is in my killfile", "dont respond to him" etc.)
>It is totally unamerican.
>
>Viewers of these forums need to recognize that the people sending messages
>intending interfere with someone's right to speak are doing so because they
>work in the particular industry being discussed and are seeking to protect
>that industry, while, usually, not disclosing the fact that they do work
>for the industry they are seeing to protect from scrutiny.
Sorry, did you say something? I missed it. Repost, please.
Beast of Bourbon
>>Maybe in the frozen tundra of the Yukon Territory, where you're shacked up
>>with a shaved-down Sasquatch, Marky-Mark. In the good ole U.S. of A., the noun
>>and the verb are spelled "practice." Get a dictionary. Get a clue. Get a
>>sense of humour, you knob.
>The Oxford dictionary maintains the noun-verb difference in the 2 spellings.
>The Webster claims the 2 spellings are interchangeable as noun and verb. As
>they say, they add slang to the dictionary every year.
Oxford and Webster can claim all they want to... the fact remains that the
standard spelling in America is "practice," and the standard spelling in
Hoserland, the UK, Australia, etc., is "practise." So sod off.
Mark Brown
borderline heavyweight/light heavyweight to a very muscular heavyweight.
addition, Holyfield's chin and ears have that exaggerated shape that is
often associated with steroids.
Foreman often jokes about Holyfield even having muscles in his toes. I
think the steroid use by Holyfield is obvious to Foreman too.
I would like to know what blood tests the rating boards do of licensed
fighters to test for steroids and with what regularity do they perform any
such tests ?
Has Holyfield ever been asked the question:
"have you ever used steroids ? "
Christopher Bruce Peart
: Oxford and Webster can claim all they want to... the fact remains that the
: standard spelling in America is "practice," and the standard spelling in
: Hoserland, the UK, Australia, etc., is "practise." So sod off.
You're off the 'mark' on two counts, beast. As a 'hypersensitive
Canadian egghead', I can tell you that we spell it 'practice'. I can also
tell you that this person is not a Canadian. His rantings have
much more in common with an American named the Sissy of Sambuca or
something.
--
Chris Peart
cpe...@is2.dal.ca
Beast of Bourbon
>You're off the 'mark' on two counts, beast. As a 'hypersensitive
>Canadian egghead', I can tell you that we spell it 'practice'.
I stand corrected.
>I can also tell you that this person is not a Canadian.
Well, he's certainly not American. Several times I've seen him using
non-American spellings for certain words. Maybe he's just an idiot. If so,
he's most likely American. With our 17% literacy rate it's understandable.
>His rantings have much more in common with an American named
>the Sissy of Sambuca...
Only you would know Sambuca is for sissies. I suggest you lay off the lysergic
diethylamide, Beaker.
Mark Brown
>Beast of Bourbon (loc...@earthlink.net) wrote:
>: Oxford and Webster can claim all they want to... the fact remains that
the
>: standard spelling in America is "practice," and the standard spelling in
>: Hoserland, the UK, Australia, etc., is "practise." So sod off.
>:
>tell you that this person is not a Canadian. His rantings have
>much more in common with an American named the Sissy of Sambuca or
>something.
>Chris Peart
>cpe...@is2.dal.ca
This is just another one of those issues where I have been proven right by
the dictionary and yet there are functionaries on this forum who are still
disputing that rectitude. I guess this is to be exepected when you speak
up against the awesome powers that be, on this forum.
Mark Brown
Christopher Bruce Peart
: I suggest you lay off the lysergic diethylamide, Beaker.
:
NEVER!!!!
--
Chris Peart
cpe...@is2.dal.ca
Mark Brown
>>Canadian egghead', I can tell you that we spell it 'practice'.
>I stand corrected.
Well, if the dictionary is not good enough for you, nothing will be.
Meanwhile, here is a shot of the truth, on the subject of this forum:
Demon Nerd
heavyweight , and he put on the weight through diet and unconventional (for
boxing) training methods, which included heavy sessions of weightlifting and
strength training. Holyfield was no slouch before he put on the weight,
though. His personal trainer at the time (I believe it was Mackie Shilstone
(sp?)) was a health nazi who wouldn't tolerate the use of steroids, which were
regarded as quite dangerous even then.
As for Holyfield's chin, he's always had it. His heart has been diagnosed
since the first Moorer fight as being okay, and your "roid rage" accusation is
nonsense. I watched both fights, and saw no evidence of kicking, thumbing,
intentional headbutting, hitting below the belt, or kicking. Review your
tapes, pal. Headbutts happen in boxing, but they're rarely intentional.
(Although Tyson had a clearly intentional one in the second fight).
Holyfield doesn't tolerate his opponent fighting dirty or hitting late, but is
that 'roid rage?
If Holyfield were a heavy user of steroids for the past decade, we could
probably expect to have heard of a damaged liver or even seen evidence of
"bitch-tits" which are obviously not to be found on Holyfield.
Mark Brown
<19981017174619...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
>I somewhat followed Holyfield's regimen when he made the transition to
>heavyweight , and he put on the weight through diet and unconventional (for
>boxing) training methods, which included heavy sessions of weightlifting
and
>strength training.
That is one of the effects of steroids. They allow you to lift weights day
and night without become exhausted.
>Holyfield was no slouch before he put on the weight,
>though. His personal trainer at the time (I believe it was Mackie
Shilstone
>(sp?)) was a health nazi who wouldn't tolerate the use of steroids, which
were
>regarded as quite dangerous even then.
You know, you never really know someone. At least not until you observe
the effects of their conduct and make reasoned inferences. Hey, you could
even be right. Maybe Holyfield took the steroids on his own. He is the type.
A cheat.
>As for Holyfield's chin, he's always had it. His heart has been diagnosed
>since the first Moorer fight as being okay, and your "roid rage" accusation
is
>nonsense. I watched both fights, and saw no evidence of kicking, thumbing,
>intentional headbutting, hitting below the belt, or kicking.
He did not have such a huge protruding chin when he fought at the 1984
Olympics. I believe he has been using steroids for a long time. I would
like to see a blood test on him right now. Otherwise he could take them now
and have them flush by the time he fights Lewis.
On fouls, Holyfield committed each of those 4 foul types more than once. I
have never seen such a huge foul output in just 3 rounds in any other fight.
> Review your
>tapes, pal. Headbutts happen in boxing, but they're rarely intentional.
>(Although Tyson had a clearly intentional one in the second fight).
>Holyfield doesn't tolerate his opponent fighting dirty or hitting late,
but is
>that 'roid rage?
Foreman also complained of Holyfield's headbutts. There is clearly a
pattern of headbutting Holyfield has in big fights and he has escaped any
punishment for all of them. We have to investigate whether referees are
being paid off when so many fouls occur with impunity.
>If Holyfield were a heavy user of steroids for the past decade, we could
>probably expect to have heard of a damaged liver or even seen evidence of
>"bitch-tits" which are obviously not to be found on Holyfield.
He was already diagnosed with heart trouble, which is an indicator of
steroid abuse. I would not be surprised if he develops a variety of
ailments within the next few years.
Mark Brown
TheAKChamp
This guys was totally against the stuff, I believe when he started working
with Evander, he just finished in helping a 190 lbs, 7 ft 7" Manute Bol gain
weight.
Mayb, Evander might be using recently, because back then he was having trouble
getting to 208 lbs. Right now he is much bigger. I think Mackie helped him
get over 200 lbs, but I am not sure if he still works with him.
Mark Brown
Certainly, whenever a boxer is discovered to be used steroids, both the
fighter and the trainer who gave him the steroids should be suspended and/or
banned from the boxing industry. It is important to identify these trainers
who utilize steroids lest they spread their poison all over the boxing
industry.
Mark Brown
Mark Brown
Matt Tegen
Don't you have any other conspiracies. I'm getting tired of these same
old reruns.
Matt Tegen
sntycrzr
Matt Tegen wrote in message <362CF2F6...@televar.com>...
>Don't you have any other conspiracies. I'm getting tired of these same
>old reruns.
>
>Matt Tegen
Good for you Matt. That makes three of us. And until you stop wasting your
time responding to MB, I'll stop wasting my time by downloading your posts.
The newsfilters/killfiles are not only good for people for whom you don't
care, but also for people who are wasting your time.
TSC
Mark Brown
>old reruns.
>Matt Tegen
I dont know. I just keep telling the truth and they say it's a conspiracy.
More of the truth:
>>Since Mark Brown has kept us all on the edge of our seats for too long,
>>I decided to compile my own list of "top contenders" Hagler did not
>>fight. I consulted nothing more authoritative than my own memory in
>>doing so; perhaps others can add to my list:
This is a good first try. There are probably 10 other major contenders to
round out the top 20 for the full 7 year period that Hagler was champion
that Hagler ducked.
The fact is that Hagler should be picking on fighters his own size. The fact
that Hagler fought only 3 of the legitimate middleweights and spent most of
his time fighting against lightweights like Duran and welterweights like
Leonard, Hearns, and junior middleweights like Mugabi and Hamsho.
Hagler was a fraud, created by the corrupt sports press, who knew he was not
fighting legitimate existing middleweights and was instead ducking them in
order to hold easy freak fights against not just blown up welterweights, but
even blown up lightweights.
>>* Dwight Davison
>Lost to Sibson, and broke Dwight broke his thumb in the process. He was
>alligned with Don King, and that's possibly why Davison never got to fight
>Bob Arum's Hagler. I liked Dwight, but he just didn't get the work he
>needed following his broken thumb against Sibson.
>>* Ronnie Epps
>Huh? This is a joke, isn't it?
This is no joke. Just because the corrupt sports press has built up Hagler
as some kind of false hero, does not mean that those who are true boxing
fans cannot revise their perception of him. Hagler should have been seeking
out guys like this, 4 times a year, proving he deserved the championship.
>>* Frank "The Animal" Fletcher
>Had a slough of tough fights, then started losing. In 1983, Fletcher lost
>to Scypion and then was kayoed by Roldan. Hagler fought and beat Roldan and
>Scypion. The next year, Fletcher was kayoed by Mugabi. Hagler fought and
>beat Mugabi.
>>* Curtis Parker
>Lost to Davison the same year Hagler won his title. Next year, Curtis lost
>to Hamsho and Scypion. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
>Hagler fought and beat Hamsho twice.
>>* Ronnie Harris
>You must have pulled this one out of your ass. YOU say why he deserved a
>title bout!
>>* Vinnie Curto
>This must be an New England joke. You put out flame bait. You get flames
>in return.
A true champion would be fighting at least 4 times per year and would be
fighting the number one contender and any other members of the top 20 who
had won fights in the past year. Joe Louis even had the bum of the month
campaign. 12 fights a year. Someone could easily have gotten lucky and
floored Louis in those fights. Louis might have had an off night. Anything
can happen, when you step into the ring with someone your own size.
>>* James "Black Mamba" Shuler
>Was stopped in one round by Hearns in a title elimination bout. Shuler died
>days later in a motorcycle accident. Hagler fought and beat Hearns.
>* James "The Heat" Kinchen
>Lost to James Shuler and drew with Jorge Amparo in 1984. Lost to Barkley in
>1986. Stopped by Roldan in 1987. Never deserved a title bout with Hagler.
>* Michael Olajide
>In 1986, Olajide beat FORMER contenders James Green and Curtis Parker.
>Those were his best wins to date. The next year, Michael fought his first
>contender and got his ass kicked by Tate, six months AFTER Hagler retired.
>The following year, Barkley knocked out Olajide. Hagler retired following
>his 'loss' to Leonard, April 6, 1987.
The fact is that blown up welterweight Hearns fought more bona fide
middleweights than Hagler during Hagler's reign. This is a disgrace. The
rating organizations and the corrupt sports press were responsible for
allowing Hagler to come through without a scratch.
>* Frank Tate
>Tate fought his first contender, Michael Olajide, 6 months following
>Hagler's final fight. Tate turned pro Dec. 1984, less than 2 1/2 years
>before Hagler's last fight. Tate was not in line for a title shot against
>Hagler.
>>Fletcher and Shuler probably blew their chances by getting their clocks
>>cleaned on the undercards of Hagler fights by two guys who got their
>>clocks cleaned by Hagler (Roldan and Hearns). Still, you have to admit
>>it's an impressive list and that the oft-maligned Mr. Brown may just
>>have a point.
>Fools must stick together. That's my point.
You seem to be echoing the Hagler line that true middleweight had to prove
that they were the best fighter of all the other fighters in the division
before they would deserve a title shot. This is absurd.
>>Hagler must have been a dirty yellow dog to have avoided
>>facing these formidable pugilists in favor of easy paydays against the
>>likes of Roberto Duran, Tommy Hearns, John Mugabi and Sugar Ray Leonard!
>And that last statement is why you're an asshole, not for making an
inquiry.
>When you go and call someone a "dirty yellow dog" based upon a faulty
memory
>and poor reasoning, I'd say that makes you an asshole. Into the killfile
>dipshit.
> TSC
Here again, you resort to personal attacks and interference in the sender's
free speech rights as a responsible to real arguments which dispute the
false hero status that has been conferred on Hagler.
The fighters listed by Mr. Sheehy were real competitors. Hagler should have
been seeking these people out, rather closing the door and requiring that
they prove that they are the undisputed middleweight #1 contender.
Hagler was no hero. He was a disgrace and a fraud. His reign displayed
everything that is repugnant about the boxing industry. The ducking of
serious fighters, the fouls when in a real fight, the waltzes with smaller
fighters in the ring in weight mismatch fraud fights. Hagler ripped off the
public and cheated his fans. He never gave them a real fight where he could
hit and perhaps be hit back by someone who could hurt him. And Hagler threw
his last fight, against Leonard.
Mark Brown
Bob Sheehy
"fouls" against the Earmuncher were "practised (sic) and premeditated."
Perhaps then you could enlighten us all as to the meaning of practiced
and premeditated "roid rage"?
Or are you just having trouble keeping your story straight?
Johnboy
>
> Mark Brown wrote:
> >
> > Some time around 9 years ago, Evander Holyfield made the transition from a
> > borderline heavyweight/light heavyweight to a very muscular heavyweight.
> > I have always assumed that he used steroids to put on the extra muscle. In
> > addition, Holyfield's chin and ears have that exaggerated shape that is
> > often associated with steroids.
> Don't you have any other conspiracies. I'm getting tired of these same
> old reruns.
>
> Matt Tegen
Yeah ... the Holyfield and Steroids stupidity has taken more beatings
than
Jesse Ferguson :-) LEt's move on to some OTHER stoopid threads, like:
Was George Foreman really drugged in Zaire? HE said so in his
autobiography,
so it MUST be true!
Sugar Ray Robinson was really a black Sicillian, so the Mob fixed all
those
fights he won!
Who is prettier - Oscar De La Hoya or Muhammad Ali?
How many miles has Hector Camacho racked up by getting on his bike in
the
ring?
That ought to be enough grist for the idiot thread mill to last at
least,
oh, a couple of days ... :-)
Johnboy
Mark Brown
<12968-36...@newsd-162.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Simple and straight as an arrow. As I have already said, Holyfield had
practised and premeditated these fouls so often that they became parts of
his elemental actions and responses. Usually, a fouler might prepare to
commit one foul every three rounds. Holyfield committed a huge numbers of
fouls within 3 rounds in this fight. As I have said, this was more fouls in
any 3 rounds than I have ever seen in any fight.
'roid rage' explains this extraordinary numerical output of fouls.
Mark Brown
BoyMayo
>old reruns.
>
>Matt Tegen
Did you know that Riddick Bowe's tattoos were specially designed
to hypnotize his opponents to sleep?
Or that Referee Frank Cappucino hides a small razor blade in his
surgical gloves that he'll use to cut fighters above the eye during
breaks?
How about the obvious fact that Joe Louis MUST have been using
creatine because of the way his ears changed shape over the
course of his career?
.....BoyMayo
------------------------------
Staff Writer, CyberBoxing Zone
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com
Seconds Out, Archive of articles:
http://members.aol.com/boymayo
------------------------------
Paul Strettell
Actually he is using human Growth Hormone (hGH), a known side effect is an
elogonated jaw. Steroids do not usually give this side effect.
Beast of Bourbon
>>Don't you have any other conspiracies. I'm getting tired of these same
>>old reruns.
>
>Good for you Matt. That makes three of us. And until you stop wasting your
>time responding to MB, I'll stop wasting my time by downloading your posts.
>The newsfilters/killfiles are not only good for people for whom you don't
>care, but also for people who are wasting your time.
However, knowing the immense size of Cruzer's ego, he'll read the dirt anyway.
The Sanity Cruzer
Paul Strettell wrote in message <90895947...@newsch.es.co.nz>...
>
>Actually he is using human Growth Hormone (hGH), a known side effect is an
>elogonated jaw. Steroids do not usually give this side effect.
As is Jay Leno.
TSC
YENDOR 20
pounds isn't all that much to add by using supplements and weight training.