Spinks *WON* Ali-Spinks II
HITFAN
broadcast on TV, I've read hundreds of boxing magazines and an issue
would not go by without talking about how great Ali supposedly was.
Years later, thanks to some tape trading I did with people on the
internet, I was able to get footage of his fights against Liston, Frazier
and Foreman. In the Foreman fight, he was extremely impressive, made
Foreman (a world class boxer in his own right) look way in over his head.
I thought that Ali was behind on points VS Frazier for the Thrilla (in
spite of the scoring judges' opinion) but he did come back and dominate
the last 3 rounds for a TKO win.
So thanks to the internet, I was able to find Ali-Spinks II (I haven't
seen the first fight). The general consensus among boxing writers was
that Spinks looked unmotivated and that while this clearly was not the
Ali of his prime, he pulled off a fairly impressive performance for a 36
year old to win the heavyweight title for a third time.
So I downloaded the fight from a torrent. It starts off with some
flashback footage of Jimmy Young fight and Cosell alluding to the
declining skills of Ali. We then get to a locker room interview (before
the fight) where Ali is clearly punch drunk. Why his hanger-ons did not
implore him to retire YEARS before, shows that they were using him for
his money.
So the fight, while not very good, did show to my mind, a spirited
performance from Spinks. While he did tire in the final rounds, I
thought that he won the fight 9-6.
Ali did not impress me much save for a few brief moments when he landed a
few clean jabs. His strategy was extremely boring and predictable: paw
with a weak jab at long range and when Spinks gets too close, clinch like
John Ruiz. If I was a referee, I would have penalized Ali several times
with point deductions.
And to hear Howard Cosell suck Ali's nutsack through the entire fight
about how great he is got pretty boring.
Ali may have been unfairly stripped of the title in 1967, but he was
clearly the most over-protected fighter in the 1970s. I now believe it
when people say that Ali should have lost the title to Jimmy Young, Ken
Norton (3rd fight) and Earnie Shavers.
SkippyPB
A guy who fought Joe Frazier 3 times was over-protected? You've a lot
to learn young man.
Regards,
--
////
(o o)
-oOO--(_)--OOo-
"Why was I with her? She reminds me of you. In fact, she
reminds me more of you than you do!"
-- Groucho Marx
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Remove nospam to email me.
Steve
Turban Joe Balasootoe
The older he gets, it is hoped that these kinds of reports increase
in number. Many of us know that Clay, then Ali, was "protected"
from the get-go-go:
George Logan (to this day, no one knows why the fight was
stopped).
Billy Daniels (phantom cut, tko).
Doug Jones (close but Clay was outpointed)
Cooper I (Angelo Dundee is now admitting there was
at least a "4 minute break" between the 4th and 5th).
We will never know the inside story of Liston I
although we have the certainty that the "anchor punch"
of Liston II was pure fiction.
Earnie Terrell (Ali complained that Earnie was "fouling"
but, as usual, the reverse was the case).
Bonavena: this one produced wrestling, grappling,
throwing, you name it. Even Cosell was shocked
by Ali's tactics. Any other fighter would have been
dq'd.
Norton II was close but a clear loss for Ali.
Frazier II gave us 12 rounds of holding---any other
fighter would have lost every round but not Ali.
Foreman--was a set-up from the day the fight
was signed per Don King et.al--a farce.
Frazier III--bizzare situation again favored Ali.
Jimmy Young out-Ali'd Ali.
Norton III was more of the other two.
Shavers won at least 10 rounds, maybe 11.
Spinks II was a repeat of Frazier II. What a
unique career
Of all these, Cooper I is the most outrageous,
followed by Shavers. They all smell.
Loki
In the event that you ever meet reality, please report back as to how
it goes.
Loki
Driving a small car to compensate for my oversized genetalia.
Turban Joe Balasootoe
>
> - Show quoted text -
Gee, Loki, you really outdid yourself in this scintillating
refutation.
Maybe you should consult the oldest living HeavyweightCOTW, Ernie
Terrell,
for some background data on this subject. While you are at it, talk
to Joe Frazier; even Henry Cooper is now beginning to give us facts
instead of political correctness.
Loki
Right... Guys who were cleanly beaten, fair and square, and remain in
denial are the right people to give objective opinions...
Ali won all of the fights you mentioned, they were all good decisions,
and there were no "fix's". Of course, as has been pointed out, you and
reality are not on speaking terms. What next? Are you going to talk
about "black helicopters"? Maybe Elvis sightings? Having tea with Big
Foot?
Loki
"Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job."
�George W. Bush, to FEMA director Michael Brown,
who resigned 10 days later amid criticism over
his job performance, Mobile, Ala., Sept. 2, 2005
Walter Mitty
All bar the Cooper fight are open to debate. What they did in the Cooper
fight was reprehensible. Not that I blame Ali himself.
Loki
wrote:
The Cooper fight is an urban legend. Yeah, Ali was floored and dazed.
However, if you watch a film of the fight, you will see that despite
what you may have read the "delay" between rounds increased the
recovery period from 60 seconds to about 70 seconds. The glove was
never changed.
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=1478&more=1
One of the myths that has surrounded the Cooper fight concerns what
happened in Clay�s corner between the fourth and fifth rounds. Clay�s
right glove had a slight tear in it. According to legend, Clay�s
trainer Angelo Dundee intentionally made the tear bigger, then
informed referee Tommy Little that the glove needed to be changed.
Little sent a steward to find another set of gloves for Clay; by the
time the new set of gloves was brought in for Clay from the far side
of the huge arena, three or four minutes had elapsed. More than enough
time for Clay to have his wits about him prior to the start of round
five.
I remember hearing this legend repeated as I was growing up and I
believed it ... until I actually watched the film of the fight. The
film doesn�t lie, or even exaggerate a little. The time that actually
lapsed between rounds was between 65 and 70 seconds. That�s it. Dundee
did bring Little over to inspect the glove. Apparently, it was
determined that the glove didn�t need to be changed because when the
bell rang for the fifth round, Clay still had the same right glove on.
See for yourself:
Harry Chambers
second fight with Spinks if he lost. Thus with him loosing and then
winning the title back, this made him the frist to had won the title
some many times? Thus further making his boxing legacy look better.
So that was some of the inside talk about his lost to Spinks. I think
that most boxing fans that heard this speculation, did not but it. Me?
I thought it had some possible reality.
H.
pmfan57
It's hard for anyone that lived through this period to believe that
people believe this stuff. Spinks did not win the second fight. It
wasn't even close. And Ali fought everyone that he could possibly
have fought from a very rich class of heavyweights, and did so all
over the world.
And he fought many fights each year (way more than current heavyweight
fighters) and was NOT ALLOWED to fight for a couple of years of his
prime, a period where his combination of physical maturity and speed
would have easily outclassed everyone in the division (including a
young Joe Frazier had they met, say, a year and half before they
actually did). What is most amazing about Ali is that he made his
mark with public only seeing him on the way up (before he was banned),
and on the way down (after he was allowed to come back). And he was
still great.
Loki
wrote:
You have to appreciate that you are addressing idiots. People who
think that Fraizer won the third fight, even though he lost via TKO.
They think he won the second fight, even though at best he took four
rounds. Anyone who thinks that the Jones fight was close clearly never
saw it.
Now they are questioning the call of the second Spinks fight. Next
they will be saying that Cleveland Williams was robbed...
Like I said, idiots.
Walter Mitty
I learnt something there. Thanks for taking the time. Wow. Talk about
urban myth.
Turban Joe Balasootoe
>
> I learnt something there. Thanks for taking the time. Wow. Talk about
>
> - Show quoted text -
Luckily, we have "Boxing Illustrated, Wrestling News" which
documented the shenanigans of Cooper I in its July, 1963
issue (this was more than a month after the fight). We have
Angelo Dundee admitting it took 4 minutes to get a new glove-
-he still denies cutting it. Many of us have this update on tape.
Thanxx to Angelo for shedding some, if not all, light.
Naturally, the existing film was altered. TV is not gonna
show 4 minutes of delay.
We have seen:
Logan (was never hurt)
Daniels (the "cut" was not bleeding at stoppage)
Jones ---- on YouTube en toto.
The essentials of most of other bouts are there, too.
No other fighter in hx had so many controversial fights
all go his way. The apologists for Ali call us names.
They have nothing else.
Calgary
<swie...@Nospam.neo.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Ali may have been unfairly stripped of the title in 1967, but he was
>>clearly the most over-protected fighter in the 1970s. I now believe it
>>when people say that Ali should have lost the title to Jimmy Young, Ken
>>Norton (3rd fight) and Earnie Shavers.
>
>A guy who fought Joe Frazier 3 times was over-protected? You've a lot
>to learn young man.
Was there a top heavyweight of that era that Ali didn't fight?
--
Don
http://www.actualriders.ca/casualcruise2009.htm
2004 Road King
2000 Yamaha Venture MM Edition
Bob
Ali got many gifts, the cooper fight was a travesty.
"Loki" <cubby...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:aag095huregm9e6nl...@4ax.com...
Turban Joe Balasootoe
> get off the crack Looookie...
>
> Ali got many gifts, the cooper fight was a travesty.
>
>
> news:aag095huregm9e6nl...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 20:07:20 +0200, Walter Mitty <mitti...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >>Loki <cubby77...@aol.com> writes:
>
> >>> On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 10:27:07 -0700 (PDT), Turban Joe Balasootoe
>
> - Show quoted text -
mwhaught
There can be some legitimate debate on some of the decisions in Ali
fights. The Ali/Spinks II fight ain't one of them. That was a one sided
boxing lesson from Ali to Spinks. Not even a close contest.
-mwh
-------�
: the next generation of web-newsreaders : http://www.recgroups.com
Loki
And you can find thousands of people who "saw" Babe Ruth call his home
run. And the legend was considered gospel until a film showed up that
proved that it was not the truth.
By the same token, watch the film. What do you believe? What you want
to believe, or your lying eyes?
Now that it is pretty clear that you have not seen the actual Cooper
fight which you claim to know something about...
>
>We have seen:
>Logan (was never hurt)
Have you SEEN the fight?
>Daniels (the "cut" was not bleeding at stoppage)
Have you SEEN the fight?
>Jones ---- on YouTube en toto.
Look it up. The fight is very easy to find. Watch it. Clay won it
handily.
>The essentials of most of other bouts are there, too.
>No other fighter in hx had so many controversial fights
>all go his way. The apologists for Ali call us names.
>They have nothing else.
Only reality, often supported by film. On the other hand, you have
only the evaluations of people with an axe to grind, but who
fortunately share a dislike for Ali with you.
Loki
>get off the crack Looookie...
>
>Ali got many gifts, the cooper fight was a travesty.
Film of the fight suggests otherwise.
Loki
So what? People talking about there memory of something which is
contradicted by actual film of the event don't carry much weight with
people who deal in reality rather than fantasy.
hitfan
He never game Foreman a rematch. Instead, we got to see him fight the likes
of Dunn, Evangelista, Coopman and Bugner.
Does anyone honestly think that a 1976/77 version of Ali stands a chance
against a wiser George Foreman?
hitfan
> to learn young man.
He was protected by being given many gift decisions. I actually think
Frazier won the second fight. Ali was clinching more than John Ruiz in his
worst day.
SkippyPB
wrote:
I don't. After the Ali fight, Foreman didn't fight again for 14
months. Look at who Foreman fought in 76 and 77. In order after the
Ali fight he fought:
Ron Lyle
Joe Frazier
Scott LeDoux
John Dino Denis
Pedro Agosto
Jimmy Young.
He lost to Young and didn't fight again for another 10 years.
Except for Frzaier and Young, none of the guys Foreman fought were
high class world beaters in the heavyweight division either.
Meanwhile, Ali kept fighting and winning. In the 75-77 time frame
beginning with the fight following his defeat of Foreman, Ali fought:
Chuck Wepner
Ron Lyle
Joe Bugner
Joe Frazier
Jean-Pierre Coopman
Jimmy Young
Richard Dunn
Ken Norton
Alfredo Evangelista
Earnie Shavers
He was clearly more active than Foreman and had tougher fights. He
beat Young in a 15 round fight while Foreman lost to Young in a 12
round fight.
Regards,
--
////
(o o)
-oOO--(_)--OOo-
"Too bad Sponge Bob is not here to celebrate Sponge Bob not being here!
-- Squidward
hitfan
>around. Ny first thought is that there must be some middle ground
>between the extreme anti Ali guy who see (absurdly) sees even the
>Forman fight as a cloak-and-dagger affair, and the enthusiastic Ali
>guys who claim he's never by some valid reasoning perhaps lost a close
>fight that went his way. If there is, it hasn't been very well
>represented in this thread!
I did say that Ali looked extremely impressive in the Foreman fight. For
example, I don't think that Big George even won a single around. Whether
that fight was an anomally or George just had a bad night, we'll never
know--Ali avoided a rematch and chose to fight the likes of Dunn, Coopman,
Evangelista and Bugner instead.
I never had the benefit of seeing Ali's "bad" performance in the first
Spinks fight (and even then, one of the judges saw fit to score the fight
for Ali), so I went into watching Ali-Spinks II without any pre-conceived
notions. What I saw was Spinks being the agressor throughout and Ali
resorting to clinching whenever Spinks got anywhere close. In fact, Ali
seemed rather weak in his punches and Spinks was able to trap in the corner
more than a few times.
Why was Ali allowed to hold as much as he did, throughout his career? I
remember watching the Terrell fight (from '67) with Ali giving some
commentary one week after the fight occurred. At one point, Ali did his
familiar holding behind the head tactic and when Terrell resorted to
punching to the body Ali said to Cosell "he's holding and hitting! that's
not allowed in boxing!".
Turban Joe Balasootoe
>
> - Show quoted text -
Our friend Loki knows more about Clay-Cooper than:
Boxing Illustrated
Henry Cooper
Angelo Dundee.
Now that is one impressive Loki.
D. Flynn
Foreman lost to Young for the same reason Ray Robinson lost to Joey
Maxim: heat prostration.
Ali was so shot by '77 that I would've picked Foreman over him.
Harry Chambers
every little thing in and outside the ring to insure come fight time he
would win.
I think that he knew a fight with Foreman in Africa would put him
setting that he ring side would have the whole crowd pulling for him,
while booing Foreman.
That fight in Zaire was in place and setting that all the psychological
advandges went to Ali. Foreman was said to very close on pulling out
and leave a few days before the fight, he, rather a report said he was
fearful that some one may try to kill him. In pre fight crowds, Ali was
cheered while Foreman was booed and hated as if he was the evil or all
evil.
Some people can feel and sense when a lot of extreme and negative
energy that is sent to them. And how much of this negative energy may
sapped the strength and being of him? And how much of the adoration
boosted Ali to fight and box better?
If that fight was fought in USA, where Foreman had a good backing,
remember him in the Olympics waving the tiny USA flags, while some seen
Ali and a draft dodger and want some to put beat him to a pulp.
If that fight was fought in the USA, it may went like how Foreman
destroyed Frazier.
It may be that Ali, and his corners too, they were no by dummy. They
wanted and may demanded that fight to be fought in Africa. And Don King
the promoter? Thinking as which fighter won, lead to him making more
money? King too may wanted that fight to be in Africa?
What I am saying is nothing new, it is what a few boxing insiders that
knew the inner things and psychology of boxing, how they say Ali may
tweaked things to his boxing advantage. A boxer and figher with pure
class, seemed to wanted only their skills and heart to decide if they
would win a boxing match. But in life, most seek to tweak things to
their advantage. In that respect then if it true, who can or should
blame Ali for being a tweaker?
H.
Turban Joe Balasootoe
There was a convicted murderer/hoodlum (Don King) and a
mass-murderer (Joseph Mobuto) calling the shots in Zaire
(now the Democratic Republic of Congo), all of which were
being placed on behalf of Ali. There were months of "Ali boom
aye-yay" (Ali, kill him) and Foreman had to know something
was AFU. As for the fight itself, it was yet another farce.
There was Ali, using the loosened ropes and holding behind
the neck repeatedly, round after round. No, there was no fix-
-Foreman wanted to win but he couldn't beat:
Don King
Mobuto
the entire population of Zaire
the loose ropes
the referee/Ali's illegal tactics.
There was a two-part unwritten law:
A. Ali can do no wrong.
B. When it's clear Ali has done wrong,
always revert to law A.
In the end, when he was ravaged by Parkinson's,
the unwritten law was scrapped; he had done
enough to squeak by Trevor Berbick but "they"
knew "they" didn't need him anymore.
danstearns
>
> - Show quoted text -
Personally, i think this is a very pessimistic view
Forman himself says otherwise and contends that he was simply
outsmarted, etc.and even Fraiser, who hated and STILL hates Ali, says
he was all man in the ring and took shots that would’ve torn a house
apart
Aside from this, you have to remember that Ali did a lot to distance
himself from being embraceable and "protected"\quite the opposite in
fact. so all this conspiracy/partiality stuff really just doesn't make
much sense on the whole on so many levels
dick gries
"mwhaught" <mwha...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:6lt6m6x...@recgroups.com...
The only reason Spinks"won" the first fight was so Ali could win their
second fight and become the first heavyweight to be a three time
champion.Spinks was a very good light heavy but never a threat to Ali.
> a -------
Turban Joe Balasootoe
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
We can't be expected to hear Foreman say anything else.
Don't forget Doublethink----folq knew Ali broke the rules
but tricked themselves into thinking he didn't. There was
no "conspiracy"--it was the Unwritten Law, based on
Orwell's 'smarter-than-Einstein's' analysis of human
behavior.
In the Foreman fight, all you have to do is count the number
of times Ali was holding behind the neck and ask yourself:
"Would Foreman have been allowed to get away with this
underhanded stuff?" The answer is painfully obvious.
Turban Joe Balasootoe
>
> - Show quoted text -
And in his most recent interview, Joe Frazier emphatically re-stated
his insistence that he had won "all three" fights. He is still deeply
troubled by Eddie Futch's stoppage which he fully maintains was
unnecessary (he had already fought with little vision for 4-5 rounds
and says he could have done the same thing for one more).
He remains disgusted by the scorecards which all had Ali
way ahead. Many of us agree.
P.S. Joe was sickened by Ali's non-stop holding in the second fight
and still is.
P.S.S. A lot of folq who concur with Joe are not Frazier fans:
We believe:
He lost both Bonavena fights.
He had no business granting title fights to the undeserving:
Manuel Ramos
Dave Zyglewicz
Bob Foster
Terry Daniels
Ron Sander
He ducked Sonny Liston for most of 1968
and 1969.
Loki
wrote:
>> Was there a top heavyweight of that era that Ali didn't fight?
Based on the Jimmy Young fight, yes. Based on the Boone Kirkman
performance in the 5 fighter against George exhibition, yes. Foreman
never learned how to beat a fighter who's strategy did not involve
standing in the center of the ring and trading punches with him.
Loki
wrote:
So you think Fraizer won a fight in which he was TKO'd.
Whatever.
Loki
What do you believe? Urban legend, or your lying eyes? The film exists
that supports what I said.
Where is your film?
Not films of interviews. A film of this "gap"?
Loki
<ddc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Aug 24, 7:36�ｿｽpm, danstearns <daniel_anthony_stea...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>> On Aug 24, 7:05�ｿｽpm, Turban Joe Balasootoe <ddca...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 24, 4:48�ｿｽpm, HCKE...@webtv.net (Harry Chambers) wrote:
>>
>> > > To me Ali was very smart boxer/figher, plus he sought to tweak each and
>> > > every little thing in and outside the ring to insure come fight time he
>> > > would win.
>>
>> > > I think that he knew a fight with Foreman in Africa would put him
>> > > setting that he ring side would have the whole crowd pulling for him,
>> > > while booing Foreman.
>>
>> > > That fight in Zaire was in place and setting that all the psychological
>> > > advandges went to Ali. Foreman was said to very close on �ｿｽpulling out
>> > > and leave a few days before the fight, he, rather a report said he was
>> > > fearful that some one may try to kill him. In pre fight crowds, Ali was
>> > > cheered while Foreman was booed and hated as if he was the evil or all
>> > > evil. �ｿｽ
>>
>> > > �ｿｽSome people can feel and sense when a lot of extreme and �ｿｽnegative
>> > > energy that is sent to them. �ｿｽ And how much of this negative energy may
>> > > sapped the strength and being of him? �ｿｽAnd how much of the adoration
>> > > boosted Ali to fight and box better?
>>
>> > > If that fight was fought in USA, where Foreman had a good backing,
>> > > remember him in the Olympics waving the tiny USA flags, while some seen
>> > > Ali and a draft dodger and want some to put beat him to a pulp.
>>
>> > > If that fight was fought in the USA, it may went like how Foreman
>> > > destroyed Frazier.
>> > > It may be �ｿｽthat Ali, and his corners too, they were no by dummy. They
>> > > wanted and may demanded that fight to be fought in Africa. �ｿｽAnd Don King
>> > > the promoter? �ｿｽThinking as which fighter won, lead to him making more
>> > > money? �ｿｽKing too may wanted that fight to be in Africa?
>>
>> > > What I am saying is nothing new, it is what a few boxing insiders that
>> > > knew the inner things and psychology of boxing, how they say Ali may
>> > > tweaked things to his boxing advantage. �ｿｽA boxer and figher with pure
>> > > class, seemed to wanted only their skills and heart to decide if they
>> > > would win a boxing match. �ｿｽBut in life, most seek to tweak things to
>> > > their advantage. �ｿｽIn that respect then if it true, who can or should
>> he was all man in the ring and took shots that would�ｿｽve torn a house
>> apart
>> Aside from this, you have to remember that Ali did a lot to distance
>> himself from being embraceable and "protected"\quite the opposite in
>> fact. so all this conspiracy/partiality stuff really just doesn't make
>> much sense on the whole on so many levels- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>
>And in his most recent interview, Joe Frazier emphatically re-stated
>his insistence that he had won "all three" fights. He is still deeply
>troubled by Eddie Futch's stoppage which he fully maintains was
>unnecessary (he had already fought with little vision for 4-5 rounds
>and says he could have done the same thing for one more).
>He remains disgusted by the scorecards which all had Ali
>way ahead. Many of us agree.
>
>
>P.S. Joe was sickened by Ali's non-stop holding in the second fight
>and still is.
>
>P.S.S. A lot of folq who concur with Joe are not Frazier fans:
>We believe:
Who is this group you speak for? Do you have regular meetings? Do you
wear tin foil hats to them?
Loki
wrote:
>>fearing death by collateral fire, i'll wade into this on thin ice all-
>>around. Ny first thought is that there must be some middle ground
>>between the extreme anti Ali guy who see (absurdly) sees even the
>>Forman fight as a cloak-and-dagger affair, and the enthusiastic Ali
>>guys who claim he's never by some valid reasoning perhaps lost a close
>>fight that went his way. If there is, it hasn't been very well
>>represented in this thread!
>
>I did say that Ali looked extremely impressive in the Foreman fight. For
>example, I don't think that Big George even won a single around. Whether
>that fight was an anomally or George just had a bad night, we'll never
>know--Ali avoided a rematch and chose to fight the likes of Dunn, Coopman,
>Evangelista and Bugner instead.
And Lyle. And Shavers. And Norton. And Fraizer. Did you forget them?
Calgary
wrote:
>> Was there a top heavyweight of that era that Ali didn't fight?
>
>He never game Foreman a rematch.
I am not sure if Foreman even wanted a rematch. Losing and losing the
way he did to Ali seemed to shatter Foreman's confidence.
>Instead, we got to see him fight the likes
>of Dunn, Evangelista, Coopman and Bugner.
Ali fought often. It would be fair to criticize him for fighting the
lesser lights of the day if he was ducking and dodging the best in the
division, but I think Ali fought all of the best, a few of them
multiple times. He also took the title around the world enhancing
boxing as a true international sport, for a while.
>
>Does anyone honestly think that a 1976/77 version of Ali stands a chance
>against a wiser George Foreman?
>
Foreman only knew one way to fight. He was very good at it, but I
think his style loses to Ali's style every time. To be fair by 77
Ali's skills had severely eroded, but so had Foreman's. Didn't Foreman
lose to Jimmy Young in the late 70's?
Harry Chambers
was shattred by Ali after their fight, and you told his that Ali seemed
and may done this and that to tweaked things so he, Ali best could win.
Foreman would not accept that those alledged tweaked things lead to his
defeat.
And this would be due to the mentality of him, Foreman. He and others
too, after the fight, they may not see how the loosing of the ropes
could help Ali. May they get the idea when others explained to them?
This is just my guess ok? It took me a while to see how the loosing of
the ropes were to Ali advantage.
Just this last past saturday, Juan Diaz and his handlers tweaked things
that he best may would win, starting with the weight to be made at weigh
in, the sized of the ring, and one other matter I think? Plus getting
all seemily home town judges? That are judges that likely to rule in
his favor.
Hopkins, and Shane Mosley too, they made sure that some one watched
their opponent hands as they were being wrapped. Today most of boxers
and handlers know of all the little things that could tweaked a fight to
one boxer advantage.
Ali, and many like him sought to gain and tweaked all possible
advantages to their boxing favor, this just human nature.
H.
Loki
wrote:
The ring was the same temperature for both Young and Foreman.
>Ali was so shot by '77 that I would've picked Foreman over him.
Ali beat Foreman before they entered the ring in Zaire and would have
done the same had they fought again. At his first career Foreman was
not a smart fighter. He had only one style, and if a fighter did not
stand in the center of the ring and swap punches with him, Foreman was
exposed and could not recover.
Loki
Perhaps you missed the question. Have YOU SEEN the fight?
>> >Daniels (the "cut" was not bleeding at stoppage)
>>
>> Have you SEEN the fight?
Perhaps you missed the question. Have YOU SEEN the fight?
>>
>> >Jones ---- on YouTube en toto.
>>
>> Look it up. The fight is very easy to find. Watch it. Clay won it
>> handily.
Perhaps you missed the question. Have YOU SEEN the fight?
Loki
>get off the crack Looookie...
>
>Ali got many gifts, the cooper fight was a travesty.
A film of the fight was included in my response. Watch it and get back
to us.
>
>
>
>
>"Loki" <cubby...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:aag095huregm9e6nl...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 20:07:20 +0200, Walter Mitty <mitt...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Loki <cubby...@aol.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 10:27:07 -0700 (PDT), Turban Joe Balasootoe
>>>> <ddc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Aug 22, 1:10 pm, Loki <cubby77...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 09:51:00 -0700 (PDT), Turban Joe Balasootoe
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <ddca...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >On Aug 22, 9:21 am, HITFAN <hit...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>> >> Being too young to have seen a lot of Muhammad Ali fights when they
>>>>>> >> were
>>>>>> >> broadcast on TV, I've read hundreds of boxing magazines and an
>>>>>> >> issue
>>>>>> Driving a small car to compensate for my oversized genetalia.- Hide
>>>>>> quoted text -
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Gee, Loki, you really outdid yourself in this scintillating
>>>>>refutation.
>>>>>Maybe you should consult the oldest living HeavyweightCOTW, Ernie
>>>>>Terrell,
>>>>>for some background data on this subject. While you are at it, talk
>>>>>to Joe Frazier; even Henry Cooper is now beginning to give us facts
>>>>>instead of political correctness.
>>>>
>>>> Right... Guys who were cleanly beaten, fair and square, and remain in
>>>> denial are the right people to give objective opinions...
>>>>
>>>> Ali won all of the fights you mentioned, they were all good decisions,
>>>> and there were no "fix's". Of course, as has been pointed out, you and
>>>> reality are not on speaking terms. What next? Are you going to talk
>>>> about "black helicopters"? Maybe Elvis sightings? Having tea with Big
>>>> Foot?
>>>>
>>>> Loki
>>>
>>>
>>>All bar the Cooper fight are open to debate. What they did in the Cooper
>>>fight was reprehensible. Not that I blame Ali himself.
>>
>> The Cooper fight is an urban legend. Yeah, Ali was floored and dazed.
>> However, if you watch a film of the fight, you will see that despite
>> what you may have read the "delay" between rounds increased the
>> recovery period from 60 seconds to about 70 seconds. The glove was
>> never changed.
>>
>> http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=1478&more=1
>>
>> One of the myths that has surrounded the Cooper fight concerns what
>> happened in Clay's corner between the fourth and fifth rounds. Clay's
>> right glove had a slight tear in it. According to legend, Clay's
>> trainer Angelo Dundee intentionally made the tear bigger, then
>> informed referee Tommy Little that the glove needed to be changed.
>> Little sent a steward to find another set of gloves for Clay; by the
>> time the new set of gloves was brought in for Clay from the far side
>> of the huge arena, three or four minutes had elapsed. More than enough
>> time for Clay to have his wits about him prior to the start of round
>> five.
>>
>> I remember hearing this legend repeated as I was growing up and I
>> believed it ... until I actually watched the film of the fight. The
>> film doesn't lie, or even exaggerate a little. The time that actually
>> lapsed between rounds was between 65 and 70 seconds. That's it. Dundee
>> did bring Little over to inspect the glove. Apparently, it was
>> determined that the glove didn't need to be changed because when the
>> bell rang for the fifth round, Clay still had the same right glove on.
>>
>> See for yourself:
>>
Loki
<ddc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Aug 24, 7:36�ｿｽpm, danstearns <daniel_anthony_stea...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>> On Aug 24, 7:05�ｿｽpm, Turban Joe Balasootoe <ddca...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 24, 4:48�ｿｽpm, HCKE...@webtv.net (Harry Chambers) wrote:
>>
>> > > To me Ali was very smart boxer/figher, plus he sought to tweak each and
>> > > every little thing in and outside the ring to insure come fight time he
>> > > would win.
>>
>> > > I think that he knew a fight with Foreman in Africa would put him
>> > > setting that he ring side would have the whole crowd pulling for him,
>> > > while booing Foreman.
>>
>> > > That fight in Zaire was in place and setting that all the psychological
>> > > advandges went to Ali. Foreman was said to very close on �ｿｽpulling out
>> > > and leave a few days before the fight, he, rather a report said he was
>> > > fearful that some one may try to kill him. In pre fight crowds, Ali was
>> > > cheered while Foreman was booed and hated as if he was the evil or all
>> > > evil. �ｿｽ
>>
>> > > �ｿｽSome people can feel and sense when a lot of extreme and �ｿｽnegative
>> > > energy that is sent to them. �ｿｽ And how much of this negative energy may
>> > > sapped the strength and being of him? �ｿｽAnd how much of the adoration
>> > > boosted Ali to fight and box better?
>>
>> > > If that fight was fought in USA, where Foreman had a good backing,
>> > > remember him in the Olympics waving the tiny USA flags, while some seen
>> > > Ali and a draft dodger and want some to put beat him to a pulp.
>>
>> > > If that fight was fought in the USA, it may went like how Foreman
>> > > destroyed Frazier.
>> > > It may be �ｿｽthat Ali, and his corners too, they were no by dummy. They
>> > > wanted and may demanded that fight to be fought in Africa. �ｿｽAnd Don King
>> > > the promoter? �ｿｽThinking as which fighter won, lead to him making more
>> > > money? �ｿｽKing too may wanted that fight to be in Africa?
>>
>> > > What I am saying is nothing new, it is what a few boxing insiders that
>> > > knew the inner things and psychology of boxing, how they say Ali may
>> > > tweaked things to his boxing advantage. �ｿｽA boxer and figher with pure
>> > > class, seemed to wanted only their skills and heart to decide if they
>> > > would win a boxing match. �ｿｽBut in life, most seek to tweak things to
>> > > their advantage. �ｿｽIn that respect then if it true, who can or should
>> he was all man in the ring and took shots that would�ｿｽve torn a house
>> apart
>> Aside from this, you have to remember that Ali did a lot to distance
>> himself from being embraceable and "protected"\quite the opposite in
>> fact. so all this conspiracy/partiality stuff really just doesn't make
>> much sense on the whole on so many levels- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>
>We can't be expected to hear Foreman say anything else.
>Don't forget Doublethink----folq knew Ali broke the rules
>but tricked themselves into thinking he didn't. There was
>no "conspiracy"--it was the Unwritten Law, based on
>Orwell's 'smarter-than-Einstein's' analysis of human
>behavior.
>
>In the Foreman fight, all you have to do is count the number
>of times Ali was holding behind the neck and ask yourself:
>
>"Would Foreman have been allowed to get away with this
>underhanded stuff?" The answer is painfully obvious.
Probably. Watch the first Foreman Fraizer fight. Foreman was pushing
Joe all over the ring and the ref never stopped him. Fighters do what
they can get away with. That has always been part of the game. Smart
fighters figure out ways to get away with more.
Sore losers and bitter fans bitch about it.
Harry Chambers
Frazier around a lot in that short fight that end with him being knocked
out. I never recalled any one saying how Foreman was pushing was
strictly agains the rules?
And he did use with both arms, kept pushing Frazier.
I may be wrong, but I am not sure if Frazier ever did complain of the
way Foreman was pushing him? Nor complained that pushing was the
reason he lost? He may done so in some interview he did on his fight
with Foreman?
H.
hitfan
> way he did to Ali seemed to shatter Foreman's confidence.
Wrong. Foreman wanted a rematch with Ali--bad. Ali always found an excuse
to avoid Foreman -- such as fighting Uruguay's best, Alfredo Evangelista
(who earned his title shot by losing to Lorenzo Zanon in his previous
fight?)
"Ali claimed he'd fight "Norton then Foreman", even though George had
smashed Norton in two rounds and Ali had already avenged his broken jaw loss
to Kenny. After Ali's controversial decision over Norton in Yankee Stadium
he soon announced his retirement...then quickly changed his mind and Ali's
team announced he was to fight Duane Bobick next.
Foreman then crashed a scheduled press conference (that had been cancelled
at the last minute) and called Ali out in front of a host of reporters in
George's home state of Texas. Ali promised the throng that they would get it
on again, "after two more fights" was his, somewhat, puzzling reply
considering the fact that he said his next fight would "probably be his
last".
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=7566&more=1
D. Flynn
And it was the same temperature for Maxim and Robinson! So in your
fantasy world the heat had no effect on the outcome of either fight.
>
> >Ali was so shot by '77 that I would've picked Foreman over him.
>
> Ali beat Foreman before they entered the ring in Zaire and would have
> done the same had they fought again.
You know for sure he would have beat Foreman in '78 when he was losing
to Spinks and in '81 when he couldn't get past Berbick?
Mind you, I'm not putting down Ali. I'm just saying his skills had
declined badly by the late '70s. It happens to every fighter.
At his first career Foreman was
> not a smart fighter. He had only one style, and if a fighter did not
> stand in the center of the ring and swap punches with him, Foreman was
> exposed and could not recover.- Hide quoted text -
Loki
wrote:
Not really. Robinson was far more active than Maxim in every round. He
was expanding a lot more energy. He was also carrying more weight than
he was used to. The same could not be said of Foreman in the Young
fight.
>
>>
>> >Ali was so shot by '77 that I would've picked Foreman over him.
>>
>> Ali beat Foreman before they entered the ring in Zaire and would have
>> done the same had they fought again.
>
>You know for sure he would have beat Foreman in '78 when he was losing
>to Spinks and in '81 when he couldn't get past Berbick?
Considering that Foreman had retired from boxing in 1977 it is a silly
question.
Loki
wrote:
Fraizer never complained. He accepted that it was Foreman's style and
the ref's call not to stop it.
That is part of the sport.
Turban Joe Balasootoe
>
> - Show quoted text -
For the third time:
1. Boxing Illustrated reported there was no cut on the glove as
Cassius returned to his corner.
2. The YouTube tape allows us to hear what the British tv guy
is saying: Dundee has alleged a cut glove.
3. We can see that Clay is in no shape to fight at the 60
second expiration.
4. ESPN ran an interview with Dundee 18 months ago in which
Angelo confirmed the "4-minute delay to get another glove---
my guy's glove was cut----I didn't cut it."
5. Cooper has explained the dressing rooms were "150 yards
away."
Why these data are not good enough? We can't prove the
corner cut the glove but if Dundee says there was a four minute
break (in addition to the alloted 60 seconds), then that is the
bottom line. It wasn't an extra 10 seconds, it was four minutes.
How did the cut get on the glove? Bugs Bunny asks: "Doc, how
does the farmer get his carrots in the ground? heh,hee,heh,hee."
Loki
First some answers. There was a tear in the glove, albeit slight since
the second round. Dundee tried to enlarge it. For that he got about an
extra 10 seconds, as the film I provided indicates. The glove WAS not
changed, as again the film proves.
The fact that people remember things different than reality is neither
surprising nor unusual. As I have pointed out, thousands of people
remember "seeing" Babe Ruth call his home run location in the World
Series. Film of the actual event unearthed about 15 years ago prove
beyond a doubt that it never happened.
When a legend is repeated enough, it becomes reality. However, that
does not make it truth.
Now that I have showed you how easy it is to answer questions, how
about if you do the same.
#1, You questioned the calls in the Logan, Daniels, and Jones fights.
Have you actually SEEN these fights?
#2. I provided an actual film of the Cooper fight with the fourth
round rest period. It is about 70 seconds. Where are the other three
minutes you claim exist?
#3. Where do you and the rest of the "folq" who think Fraizer lost the
Bonevena fights have your meetings and do you wear tin foil hats to
them? BTW... Has it ever occurred to you that they may consider you to
be the idiot of the group and that they secretly laugh at what they
can get you to post?
Walter Mitty
> For what it may ever to be worth, I think too that Foreman confidence
> was shattred by Ali after their fight, and you told his that Ali seemed
> and may done this and that to tweaked things so he, Ali best could win.
> Foreman would not accept that those alledged tweaked things lead to his
> defeat.
*snip another page of burble*
So now you think a devastating loss for a previously unbeaten fighter in
front of the entire world might have shattered his confidence?
Wow.
Amazing ...
SkippyPB
wrote:
No, there was another reason Ali lost to Leon. Ali underestimated
Leon and barely trained. That didn't happen the second time.
Regards,
--
////
(o o)
-oOO--(_)--OOo-
"Too bad Sponge Bob is not here to celebrate Sponge Bob not being here!
-- Squidward
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Remove nospam to email me.
Steve
D. Flynn
So Foreman didn't actually suffer from heat prostration? How foolish
of Gil Clancy to call an ambulance! And those silly doctors in that
Puerto Rican hospital who hooked up George to an IV? Clearly they
imagined the whole thing.
> >> >Ali was so shot by '77 that I would've picked Foreman over him.
>
> >> Ali beat Foreman before they entered the ring in Zaire and would have
> >> done the same had they fought again.
>
> >You know for sure he would have beat Foreman in '78 when he was losing
> >to Spinks and in '81 when he couldn't get past Berbick?
>
> Considering that Foreman had retired from boxing in 1977 it is a silly
> question.- Hide quoted text -
Turban Joe Balasootoe
>
> - Show quoted text -
Comparing Clay-Cooper to a Babe Ruth home run is not what
anyone is looking for, is the antithesis of a worthy argument.
Your insistence that Dundee is wrong is an indicator of what
lengths Clay-Ali apologists will go to. Stoop to.
We shan't dignify any more of your ravings.
Harry Chambers
after the Ali fight, but then after how some, boxing insiders may
impressed upon him that Ali did this and that things to shape the fight
to go his way.
And him realizing the possible impact of those realities leading to him
likely to loose, some of his confidence may came back, and more may
came back when he heard Ali said that his body and arms had took a
terrible beating, and he was not sure if he could had lasted a few
rounds more.
I think too Foreman in his mind felt that if some way he had better
stamina, he at least would had been able to fight in way that his
punches would not got sloppy and weak. And he be possible able to fight
a few round more, and like I said, Ali by his own admission was not sure
if he could had gone a few rounds more.
All that said, it seemed that Ali's master plan worked, let Foreman
punch himself out and then he be easy to be knocked out.
And getting back to say Foremen feeling devasated,sp, and shattered
after the fight, the same could be said of Cotto, but when he learned
that Margrito boxing gloves was fixed, he likely felt that of his own,
he did not loose that fight, cheating stole it from him. Thus too, say
a shattered Foreman after hearing of all the alledge of Ali tweaking
things, he may then felt in fought Ali in new and different setting, the
result then will be different. And when if Foreman got this realization,
he may then sought to get a second fight with Ali.
So this may possible expain some seemily shift in Foreman confidence in
himself after the fight to some time afterward.
H.
Loki
wrote:
I am saying that the ring was equally hot for both fighters. Foreman
did not lose because of the heat. He lost because he couldn't beat
Jimmy Young, or any other quality defensive fighter.
Loki
<ddc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Aug 25, 9:40嚙窮m, Loki <cubby77...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 06:18:57 -0700 (PDT), Turban Joe Balasootoe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <ddca...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >On Aug 24, 9:11嚙緘m, Loki <cubby77...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 08:41:20 -0700 (PDT), Turban Joe Balasootoe
>>
>> >> <ddca...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> >On Aug 23, 3:07嚙窮m, Loki <cubby77...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >> >> On Sat, 22 Aug 2009 18:06:23 -0700 (PDT), Turban Joe Balasootoe
>>
>> >> >> <ddca...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >On Aug 22, 8:38嚙緘m, Walter Mitty <mitti...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >> Loki <cubby77...@aol.com> writes:
>>
>> >> >> >> > The Cooper fight is an urban legend. Yeah, Ali was floored and dazed.
>> >> >> >> > However, if you watch a film of the fight, you will see that despite
>> >> >> >> > what you may have read the "delay" between rounds increased the
>> >> >> >> > recovery period from 60 seconds to about 70 seconds. The glove was
>> >> >> >> > never changed.
>>
>> >> >> >> >http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=1478&more=1
>>
>> >> >> >> > One of the myths that has surrounded the Cooper fight concerns what
>> >> >> >> > happened in Clay嚙編 corner between the fourth and fifth rounds. Clay嚙編
>> >> >> >> > right glove had a slight tear in it. According to legend, Clay嚙編
>> >> >> >> > trainer Angelo Dundee intentionally made the tear bigger, then
>> >> >> >> > informed referee Tommy Little that the glove needed to be changed.
>> >> >> >> > Little sent a steward to find another set of gloves for Clay; by the
>> >> >> >> > time the new set of gloves was brought in for Clay from the far side
>> >> >> >> > of the huge arena, three or four minutes had elapsed. More than enough
>> >> >> >> > time for Clay to have his wits about him prior to the start of round
>> >> >> >> > five.
>>
>> >> >> >> > I remember hearing this legend repeated as I was growing up and I
>> >> >> >> > believed it ... until I actually watched the film of the fight. The
>> >> >> >> > film doesn嚙緣 lie, or even exaggerate a little. The time that actually
>> >> >> >> > lapsed between rounds was between 65 and 70 seconds. That嚙編 it. Dundee
>> >> >> >> > did bring Little over to inspect the glove. Apparently, it was
>> >> >> >> > determined that the glove didn嚙緣 need to be changed because when the
>> >> >> 嚙瘦eorge W. Bush, to FEMA director Michael Brown,
>> >Why these data are not good enough? 嚙磕e can't prove the
I was comparing myths becoming reality due to the stories being
repeated often enough. Happened with Ruth and it happened with
Ali/cooper. In both cases films proved that the legends were just that
and that the truth was not as it was remembered.
The fact that you are now running and hiding rather than dealing with
questions you cannot answers makes me optimistic that we have seen the
last of you.
Calgary
wrote:
>
>Wrong. Foreman wanted a rematch with Ali--bad. Ali always found an excuse
>to avoid Foreman -- such as fighting Uruguay's best, Alfredo Evangelista
>(who earned his title shot by losing to Lorenzo Zanon in his previous
>fight?)
I recall seeing an interview with the "Second Generation" Foreman and
he was adamant that after his loss to Ali he wanted no part of him
again. That was right from the horses mouth and I tend to believe it.
There was very little bravado in Foreman during his second career. I
thought he was being honest.
There is no doubt Ali took some easy fights after he knocked Foreman
out, but Ali fought four times in 75 including fighting Lyle and
Frazier. He fought four times in 76 taking on Jimmy Young (who also
beat Foreman) and Ken Norton.
I wouldn't knock a fighter for taking an easy fight when he fights
that often, taking the tougher fights too.
D. Flynn
And it was equally hot for Maxim and Robinson.
Foreman
> did not lose because of the heat. He lost because he couldn't beat
> Jimmy Young, or any other quality defensive fighter.
According to Gil Clancy Foreman was already partially dehydrated
before the fight began because in a foolish attempt to acclimate
himself to the Puerto Rican heat he'd kept his dressing room hotter
than a sauna.
Of course it's not Jimmy Young's fault that his opponent put himself
at such a ridiculous disadvantage.
Turban Joe Balasootoe
> On Mon, 24 Aug 2009 23:48:39 GMT, "dick gries" <r.gr...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"mwhaught" <mwhau...@excite.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
We can assume Muhammad intensified his holding drills.
Loki
wrote:
Please pay attention. This point has been addressed already. I would
hate to have to do it again due to your inability to comprehend simple
ideas. Robinson was far more active against Maxim. He had won just
about every round due to his activity. In addition, he was carrying
much more weight than he was used to carrying.
Neither of those factors, which were both considerable contributors to
Robinson's condition were evident in the Foreman/Young fight.
> Foreman
>> did not lose because of the heat. He lost because he couldn't beat
>> Jimmy Young, or any other quality defensive fighter.
>
>According to Gil Clancy Foreman was already partially dehydrated
>before the fight began because in a foolish attempt to acclimate
>himself to the Puerto Rican heat he'd kept his dressing room hotter
>than a sauna.
>
>Of course it's not Jimmy Young's fault that his opponent put himself
>at such a ridiculous disadvantage.
And you still are missing the very obvious point, that again has been
made, that Foreman NEVER looked good against a top quality fighter who
could fight defensively. Of course, at that point in his career, he
had only faced two. Ali, and Young. Look up his record. Apart from
those two guys he fought either guys who tried to slug it out with him
(Fraizer, Norton, Lyle) or tomato cans. Foreman was if anything even
more protected than Primo Carnera.
Loki
Oh my goodness... You said you were tired of getting kicked around and
promised to go away. And here you are with your kick me sign on again.
So, once again I will give you the chance to either back up your
words, or skid addle...
SkippyPB
<actual.ri...@telus.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 25 Aug 2009 04:29:57 -0600, "hitfan" <hit...@nospam.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>Wrong. Foreman wanted a rematch with Ali--bad. Ali always found an excuse
>>to avoid Foreman -- such as fighting Uruguay's best, Alfredo Evangelista
>>(who earned his title shot by losing to Lorenzo Zanon in his previous
>>fight?)
>
>I recall seeing an interview with the "Second Generation" Foreman and
>he was adamant that after his loss to Ali he wanted no part of him
>again. That was right from the horses mouth and I tend to believe it.
>There was very little bravado in Foreman during his second career. I
>thought he was being honest.
>
I recall George saying the same thing when asked why he never got a
rematch with Ali. This was when George was an analyst with HBO.
>There is no doubt Ali took some easy fights after he knocked Foreman
>out, but Ali fought four times in 75 including fighting Lyle and
>Frazier. He fought four times in 76 taking on Jimmy Young (who also
>beat Foreman) and Ken Norton.
>
>I wouldn't knock a fighter for taking an easy fight when he fights
>that often, taking the tougher fights too.
Regards,
D. Flynn
I can "comprehend simple ideas", just not insane ones.
Since this is getting tedious, let's just end this and say that you
feel Young would have beaten Foreman regardless of the weather and I
feel differently.
Robinson was far more active against Maxim. He had won just
> about every round due to his activity. In addition, he was carrying
> much more weight than he was used to carrying.
>
> Neither of those factors, which were both considerable contributors to
> Robinson's condition were evident in the Foreman/Young fight.
>
> > Foreman
> >> did not lose because of the heat. He lost because he couldn't beat
> >> Jimmy Young, or any other quality defensive fighter.
>
> >According to Gil Clancy Foreman was already partially dehydrated
> >before the fight began because in a foolish attempt to acclimate
> >himself to the Puerto Rican heat he'd kept his dressing room hotter
> >than a sauna.
>
> >Of course it's not Jimmy Young's fault that his opponent put himself
> >at such a ridiculous disadvantage.
>
> And you still are missing the very obvious point, that again has been
> made, that Foreman NEVER looked good against a top quality fighter who
> could fight defensively. Of course, at that point in his career, he
> had only faced two. Ali, and Young. Look up his record. Apart from
> those two guys he fought either guys who tried to slug it out with him
> (Fraizer, Norton, Lyle) or tomato cans. Foreman was if anything even
> more protected than Primo Carnera.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Wow! You're claiming that by the time Foreman retired in '77 he had
been "more protected than Primo Carnera"?
So I guess Carnera's list of opponents was tougher than Foreman's
wimpy list which merely included Chuvalo, Ali, Jimmy Young, Ken
Norton, Ron Lyle and Joe Frazier (twice)?
You sure you don't want to reconsider that statement?
Gil
when Ali lost the first fight, but it was exciting to see an underdog
win. In the second fight, I was pulling for Spinks all the way, and I
was very disappointed. I knew he lost even before they read the
decision.
I have both fights on video, and time passing hasn't changed a thing.
Ali lost the first fight because he wasn't ready for a young
challenger. Ali won the second fight because Spinks wasn't ready for
the neon lights.
Calgary
<swie...@Nospam.neo.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>I recall seeing an interview with the "Second Generation" Foreman and
>>he was adamant that after his loss to Ali he wanted no part of him
>>again. That was right from the horses mouth and I tend to believe it.
>>There was very little bravado in Foreman during his second career. I
>>thought he was being honest.
>>
>
>I recall George saying the same thing when asked why he never got a
>rematch with Ali. This was when George was an analyst with HBO.
>
Yup, I believe you are correct.
Loki
wrote:
Fair analysis.
Absolutely not. Foreman lost to two of the people you named, Chuvalo
was a shell of his never was self when he faced George, and Fraizer,
Lyle, and Norton were fighters who stood in the center of the ring and
tried to out punch him. The kind who would have never had a chance.
Look at his record:
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=90&cat=boxer
Leading up to his title fight for the title he became the number one
contender not by facing people like Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis, Buster
Mathis, Floyd Patterson, or any of the other top contenders.
Immediately leading up to his title fight he faced:
Terry Sorrell: 4-16
Miguel Angel Paez: 48-15-13 and 32 years old
Ted Gullick: 15-5-1
Clarence Boone: 4-20-1
Joe Murphy Goodwin: 1-14-1
Luis Faustino Pires: 18-7-1
Ollie Wilson: 20-40
Let me again emphasize. These are not the fighters he faced when he
was still fighting preliminaries. These are the fighters he faced
immediately before facing Fraizer. Tomato cans. And if you look at his
record, you will see that they are typical of his opposition. He never
faced a top contender before fighting for the title, and even after
winning the title he only faced 5 quality fighters, two of whom beat
him and the other three were tailor made for his style.
Yeah, he was protected.
Harry Chambers
for a rematch and this seem in opposition to years later, him as an
announcer saying the wanted no parts of him, Ali.
And it could be that both of what he said was true, I say this in
respect that it seems that Foreman changed from a person that had a
scowl and serious look on his face to a person that was golly and had a
big smile on his face.
So base on his change of 180 degree personality switch, he may did say
or did both of those things, challenging Ali to later saying he wanted
no part of him. He may said both things from a different personality of
his?
H.
hitfan
>>>he was adamant that after his loss to Ali he wanted no part of him
>>>again. That was right from the horses mouth and I tend to believe it.
>>>There was very little bravado in Foreman during his second career. I
>>>thought he was being honest.
>>>
>>
>>I recall George saying the same thing when asked why he never got a
>>rematch with Ali. This was when George was an analyst with HBO.
>>
>
> Yup, I believe you are correct.
Two Ali apologists citing each other as proof that Foreman was scared of an
Ali rematch.
I provided a link and a quote where Foreman was DEMANDING a rematch with Ali
in the 1970s.
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=7566&more=1
I challenge the both of you to provide a youtube video to the claim that
Foreman avoided an Ali rematch.
SkippyPB
wrote:
>>>>I recall seeing an interview with the "Second Generation" Foreman and
Foreman crashed a news conference. Big deal. He was a young, brazen
guy in those days by his own admission. It's too bad you didn't watch
HBO when George was doing color commentary for fights. You would have
seen George admit he really wanted no part of Ali and that he was
young, brazen and stupid. Case in point...his loss to Jimmy Young and
subsequent 10 year lay off.
Turban Joe Balasootoe
>
> - Show quoted text -
George's neck never recovered from the 'Zaire zzzzzzzzzzzzz' night.
Ali grabbed it 'bout 50 times. The rest of him wanted him to pulverize
Ali in a 2nd but honest fight. The neck asked: "What honest fight?"
Loki
Check it out. Look who's back.