Fatality @ Skydive Delmarva.
Martin Evans
skydiver with 600+ jumps and 10 years in the sport, along with two other
experienced skydivers made a 3 way headdown skydive from the Twin Otter @
Skydive Delmarva.
The dive was uneventful until break off at 6,000 ft. At break off as Pete
tracked away another jumper on the dive observed what is believed to have
been Pete's main bridle flapping on his back. It is believed that the pin
extracted from the main pack tray and that a horseshoe malfunction occurred.
It is believed that Pete was unable to extract the pilot chute from its
pouch and was left with no other option but to cutaway and deploy his
reserve parachute. The main canopy was held in the D-bag by one rubber band
stow that contained some of the lines from the group. The reserve freebag
did not completely clear the reserve and the bulk of the reserve canopy
remained held in the freebag by one rubber band stow. Partial inflation of
the reserve canopy occurred pulling Pete vertical. He was observed by others
on the load and ground observers to be attempting to clear the problem until
impact on the grass runway at which time he died immediately.
We at Skydive Delmarva all feel a great loss and sorrow in losing our good
friend today.
We will miss you Pete, God Speed and God Bless You.
Your friends and family at Skydive Delmarva.
Peanut4040
>friend today.
>
>We will miss you Pete, God Speed and God Bless You.
>
>Your friends and family at Skydive Delmarva.
>
>
Tear,,, thanks martin
Falco98
I certainly feel terrible for the deceased, as well as the DZ, staff, etc.
My best wishes to everyone unfortunate enough to be involved.
~Mike
C-31604
Martin Evans wrote in message ...
Livendive
friends have my condolences. Do you by any chance have any idea what kind
of rig he was jumping? I've yet to see a freebag that closes with rubber
bands. Every freebag I've seen has a "safety stow" such that if one side
comes out, so will the other, preventing "partial inflation" with "the bulk
of the reserve canopy remain(ing) held in the freebag". As such, I'm having
a hard time imagining the reserve malfunction. Although you didn't
specifically say so, I'm assuming (almost hoping) the reserve was entangled
in the trailing main that was still connected via the pilot chute and
bridle.
Blues
Dave
"Martin Evans" <skyeyes...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:stVU6.75416$4f7.5...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Martin Evans
"Livendive" <live...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9g1e86$6hho9$1...@ID-75676.news.dfncis.de...
> I'm sorry to hear about this Martin.
> You at the dropzone and his family and
> friends have my condolences.
Thank you.
> Do you by any chance have any idea what kind
> of rig he was jumping?
I don't but I'll ask tomorrow.
>I've yet to see a freebag that closes with rubber
> bands.
That was a mistake on my part possibly. Although I was posting this
information at the request of the DZO I was piecing together information and
notes I had from various sources and may have misconstrued what I had been
provided with.
>Every freebag I've seen has a "safety stow" such that if one side
> comes out, so will the other, preventing "partial inflation" with "the
bulk
> of the reserve canopy remain(ing) held in the freebag".
That is my understanding also but at the time I was gathering together the
information to post here in as timely a manner as possible before the
runaway rumor train showed up I never picked up on that! I'll see if I can
clarify.
> As such, I'm having
> a hard time imagining the reserve malfunction.
>Although you didn't
> specifically say so, I'm assuming (almost hoping) the reserve was
entangled
> in the trailing main that was still connected via the pilot chute and
> bridle.
That is my understanding. I was in the air at the time and never personally
witnessed the incident. The information I have posted came from various
witnesses and those present at the immediate investigation.
I'll do my best to answer the points you raise.
--
Blue ones,
Stay Safe.
Martin Evans.
For information about Sky-Eye Skydiving Services please visit our website
at:
After browsing please follow the link to Skydive Delmarva.
"Never confuse movement with action". Ernest Hemingway
RiggerTCM
chris
David B Brownell
If it was a Racer it could have rubber bands instead of the safety
stow.
DB> I have been dead against the use of rubber bands for the locking
stows on reserve free bags, and have conveyed this very strongly to
John Sherman, but not for the reason given in this thread, but for the
reason of "bag strip."
O well, there "may now" be another reason.
My deepest sympathy for all the relatives and friends,
Dave Brownell
Mesa, AZ
Winsor Naugler III
> if it was a racer it could have rubber bands instead of the safety stow.
>
>
in the first place.
Horseshoes are bad juju, and they aren't a factor with the JumpShack
pullout. An inadvertant container opening results in spontaneous
deployment of an otherwise normal main.
Blue skies,
Winsor
Martin Evans
"Livendive" <live...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9g1e86$6hho9$1...@ID-75676.news.dfncis.de...
I've yet to see a freebag that closes with rubber
> bands. Every freebag I've seen has a "safety stow" such that if one side
> comes out, so will the other, preventing "partial inflation" with "the
bulk
> of the reserve canopy remain(ing) held in the freebag".
>As such, I'm having
> a hard time imagining the reserve malfunction.
It was a safety stow I have been informed, it seems though that the freebag
immediately wrapped around the main/bridle and there wasn't enough drag to
pull the stow through releasing the rest of the resrve.
>Although you didn't
> specifically say so, I'm assuming (almost hoping) the reserve was
entangled
> in the trailing main that was still connected via the pilot chute and
> bridle.
Yes.
The rig was a 1998 Mirage.
****************************************************************************
**********
The following is not official but my personal take on the incident.
Regardless of whether or not it was the cause of the accident it is still
something each and everyone of us should consider .
Without the ability to have the rig here on site and repack it we have no
way of knowing for sure but it is suspected that the main closing loop was
excessively long allowing the rig to easily open while flying at headdown
speeds, which was I believe something relatvely new in Pete's repetoire.
If there is an immediate lesson to be learned from this incident I would say
it is to understand and maintain your gear to spec. A loose closing loop is
a senseless thing to die for. If you pull your loop through aligning all the
grommets one on top of the other, you should have no more than 1/2 an inch
of loop when the pack is closed tightly!
Regardless of whether or not you freefly, the above still applies. A loose
closing loop can allow the pack to open prematurely while moving around in
the aircraft ,setting up in the door or floating outside and in a number of
other situations, killing either yourself, your jump buddies or all of you
including the pilot if it takes out the aircraft.
Take care!
James Wine
I have thought about going to pullout at times. It is clear that a non-deployed horseshoe mal is
eliminated with this deployment type, but what are the complications with pullout? (i.e. why has the
industry adopted BOC so readily rather than pullout??)
Thanks for your thoughts,
Jim Wine
D-15598
Jen Richter
> the pin is tight? I was told by several people this weekend that this is
> acceptable. My closing loop was too tight and I had a long delay in opening so
> I had the closing loop loosened. That made the grommets not line up at all and
> I was worried about this and had several people look at it and all of them
> said as long as its tight, it will be fine.
My other question/statement: Please don't take this the wrong way but I"m
curious. If I wanted to try a birdman suit, I wouldn't just put one on and go.
I'd get training from someone who knows how to fly it and its characteristics. I
would apply this to also trying a new discipline. If I wanted to start doing
head down, which I do, I would get with someone who is proficient in that area
and at least have them make sure I had the correct gear. I know Pete was very
safe but I wonder if he consulted anyone before trying the head down with his
current gear configuration.
This is very important to me, I very easily could have had this same situation
due to my loose closing loop and if I did or didn't have someone check my gear.
Rick Horn
Just my opinion, based on having jumped a pullout for 21 years:
Pro's:
Open container = Parachute rather than horseshoe
Pilot chute in tow - Virtually eliminated
Reserve goes into clear air.
Cons:
Many packers don't know how to pack them. I can close my own rig.
Floating pud: It hits you in the butt and lets you know it's floating. If
the procedure for floating pud is practiced on the ground, it takes about
1/2 second extra to find.
Probably the largest reason is that it does take extra conscious effort to
ensure that the shoulders remain square during deployment. If you are
jumping a high performance eliptical, this becomes a major factor.
Rick
--
Rick Horn
AFF Certification Course Director
My Website: http://rickhorn.com
My schedule http://rickhorn.com/cgi-bin/jump.cgi?ID=39
Pre-course Guide http://rickhorn.com/cgi-bin/jump.cgi?ID=32
Message Board http://rickhorn.com/cgi-bin/jump.cgi?ID=79
New! ISP study guides and quizzes
http://rickhorn.com/cgi-bin/jump.cgi?ID=110
Livendive
to it. I'm not sure who is mentioning that they're grommets don't align and
questioning whether it's ok as long as the loop is tight, and my answer is
maybe. Some containers are designed for the grommets not to align (mine is
one), yet the security can still be very good. If your rig is designed for
the grommets to align when closed, and doing that makes the loop too tight,
you either need a smaller main or a bigger container. Granted I've put a
canopy in my container that was WAY too big for it, but not for every day
jumping. Know your rig, and how it's supposed to work. If it doesn't work
like that, fix it or get one that does.
Blues,
Dave
"Jen Richter" <jric...@cyan3.cc.nih.gov> wrote in message
news:3B264A0F...@cyan3.cc.nih.gov...
Adam
your gear. As for closing a container there are many skydivers out
there who are unable to pull the closing loop through all the grommets
and have them line up properly. The most common remedy for this is to
lengthen the closing loop. This may appear to be a good solution on
the ground because it appears that the pin is tight and the container
is secure. After the air in the canopy continues to lessen (overnight
and/or in the airplane) from the pressue on the bag and container, the
pin is then loose and could come out during freefall, climb out, or in
the airplane.
The key to closing your container properly is to fill out the D-bag
and the pack tray fully; then have rigger show you a good technique
for gaining leverage on the closing flaps.
Blue Skies to all,
Adam
"Martin Evans" <skyeyes...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<SraV6.74163$t12.6...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
Wilkinson
my arm fully extended, which gave no leeway or extra oomph for a hard pull. Not a good place to be.
Wendy W.
Wendy Faulkner
Wilkinson <mave...@hal-pc.org> wrote:
>I don't know about shorter rigs, but back when I first tried one, the pull-out could only be reached with
>my arm fully extended, which gave no leeway or extra oomph for a hard pull. Not a good place to be.
>Wendy W.
Well, I've only jumped pull-outs on Racers and Javelins, but being fairly small
and only 5 feet tall, I haven't had any problems with them. The location is
the same pretty much as a BOC pouch, so I'd have just as much oomph for a hard
pull on a pullout as a throwout.
Wen
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Wendy Faulkner Don't knock on Death's door.
faul...@eco.utexas.edu Ring the bell and run away.
http://www.eco.utexas.edu/~faulkner He hates that.
JRS
A horesehoe is very hard to get outa,
to have both options out and neither working is all bad.
We will miss you Pete,
God Speed and God Bless You.
John Singletary
"Martin Evans" <skyeyes...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:stVU6.75416$4f7.5...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Orange Splat
> Yes, I believe that this brings up a good point about maintaining
-------------
Adam,
How is Tim doing??? ...Has anybody been able to get in
to see him (personally) at all???
I have been in constant contact with Chuck since hearing about his
accident as well. Gawd, this past weekend at DelMarVa REALLY SUCKED,
huh? ---Again, I was glad (for once) that I was actually not there.
Was gonna be, and had something last-minute come up w/my boys.
...Right up until Tuesday (when I got back into town) I was kicking
myself for "missing" such a "beautiful weekend". Are you going to be
at DelMarVa THIS weekend??? ...How is everybody doing??? ....I
have been feeling so helpless & useless since hearing about BOTH Pete
and Tim since. I would like to do whatever I can, especially now for
Tim, as soon as I can. ---If you know of any way to pass along to
him my "good word", or further "what is up", could you please help me
out in that regard? I am certainly a kindred spirit to him now, in
his current state & condition.
Hope to see you all soon.
I truly LOVE all my friends down there at DelMarVa.
My heart & thoughts are going out to us all, so very desperately at
this excruciatingly painful time. BSBD...
A very intelligent post, BTW.
Blue Skies,
-Grant
aka: orange splat
Skydog #0273 ---woof!
Skyspanky
cervical vertebrae fused and now has the halo removed and is in a neck
brace. His family is in Salisbury to be with him but he is now out of ICU,
in his own room, and can be reached by phone I believe (sorry don't have the
phone number handy). He should be in Salisbury for the rest of the week and
then transferred to Annapolis for rehab.
We are hanging in there, just got back from Pete's viewing which was
attended my many many people. It was good to see and meet some of Pete's
close friends and family; although I wish the circumstances were different.
He was wearing his new jumpsuit of stars and strips which he was very proud
of. We all miss him severely.
Yes it seems Adam is making good use of his riggers ticket and giving great
advise.
See you soon I hope;
Bill Spangler
AFFI-01
Orange Splat wrote in message ...
Ann T. Poblenz
Ann T. Poblenz
Wendy W.
????
Lord Phoenix
Orange Splat
> What happened to Tim (I am assuming Lambert?) ???
Here is a "cut-n-paste" from an internal e-mail that I have:
Tim Lambert, a long-time jumper at DelMarVa, staff camera-flyer & all
around GREAT GUY was seriously injured (broken neck & pelvis) when,
trying out a "new" canopy, apparently made a turn too low to the
ground for his canopy to fully recover from it's dive & he impacted
the ground still in that dive. Tim is expected to fully recover & as
of today has been moved out of ICU & is in relatively good spirits.
-------------
Your assumption is correct. My reference was to Tim Lambert. I was
not there, but I spoke with Tim on the phone just yesterday & he is
(under the circumstances) doing ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC!! He fractured
his c1 & c2 vertabrae & underwent fusion surgery on Wed, 6/13/01. He
is expected to fully recover & indeed is in very good spirits,
considering. ...Let's all wish Tim a very speedy recovery!! We all
hope to see him out at the DZ again very soon. Tim is TRULY one of
those all-around CLASS-ACT, caring & giving gentlemen of the sport.
BLUE SKIES!
Tommy Dougherty
> non-deployed horseshoe mal is eliminated with this deployment type, but
> what are the complications with pullout? (i.e. why has the industry
> adopted BOC so readily rather than pullout??)
Hey Jim,
A friend of mine at the DZ bought a rig about 6 yrs ago which had a
pullout. He had 3 reserve rides within a year - when he pulled the pud and
didn't have a good enough grip - and the pud was floating out of reach with
the pin still in the closing loop. (It was a CRWDog's old rig.)
I went from a ROL to the BOC once we got our king air, since there's more
moving around than in the cessna (moving for tandems to hookup, etc).
Blue Skies!
-Tommy
Martin Evans
"Tommy Dougherty" <skyd...@lycosmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns90C3CEE507BD4sk...@216.65.3.134...
I have almost 9,000 jumps on a pullout and my girlfriend/partner has 8,000.
Neither of us have ever had a pilot chute in tow or a horseshoe malfunction.
We have both had totals to which we deployed our reserves into clean air
with nary a worry about deploying into garbage above our backs. You make the
call!
Way up the pro's and cons of each system and decide which problems you'd
best deal with and which ones give you the cold shivers!
Paul Quade
Just last weekend I videoed a minor RW collision (the type that happens all
the time) and one of the skydiver's pud got pulled out as a result. So,
now, here I am, floating above a RW group with a guy that may have a
premature deployment.
At least when minor RW collisions happen with BOCs, they don't have a lot of
chance to prematurely deploy.
Anyway, just my two cents.
Paul
> From: James Wine <jim....@marymount.edu>
> Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
> Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:23:50 GMT
> Subject: Pro's & Con's of Pull-outs
>
Jen Richter
out of the halo, in a neck brace. I was told he is in good spirits.....
Martin Evans
"Paul Quade" <qu...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:B752E2F9.1EC1%qu...@usa.net...
> As a camera flyer, -seeing- a pull-out type rig makes me nervous.
>
> Just last weekend I videoed a minor RW collision (the type that happens
all
> the time) and one of the skydiver's pud got pulled out as a result. So,
> now, here I am, floating above a RW group with a guy that may have a
> premature deployment.
>
> At least when minor RW collisions happen with BOCs, they don't have a lot
of
> chance to prematurely deploy.
>
> Anyway, just my two cents.
Paul,
You need to rethink your position. It is far more likely that you will at
some point experience a premature deployment coming at you from a throwout
rig than a pullout. The only way on a pullout that the main is coming out
is by the pin being physically extracted, whereas with the throwaway the
extraction is initiated mechanically allowing for many different scenarios
to start the process!
With the pullout systems employed by today's modern containers accidental
extraction is very rare!
Paul Quade
here, educate me if I am, if the pud can come loose and be flopping around
as a result of a minor RW collision/funnel, then isn't it also likely that
it could just as easily also pull the pin?
As a camera flyer, anytime I see -anything- flopping around on one of the
jumpers I immediately get off to the side of the formation because it just
looks like trouble. A floating pud, to me, seems like a pretty bad thing.
I'm thinking if there's one minor collision that causes something like this,
then it's possible that sometime later in the same skydive it's going to
happen again, only this time, the floating pud will get caught on something,
pulling the pin, opening the container and causing a mess.
I realise there's -probably- not enough drag on the floating pud alone to
pull the pin, but geeze, I'm not going to test that theory out with -my-
body.
On the other hand, I can't say I've ever seen a BOC pilot chute get
dislodged as a result of the same type of minor collision/funnel. Maybe you
have. Maybe I'm just still too new at this.
Paul
prof
Martin Evans wrote:
>
> "Paul Quade" <qu...@usa.net> wrote in message
> news:B752E2F9.1EC1%qu...@usa.net...
> > As a camera flyer, -seeing- a pull-out type rig makes me nervous.
> >
> > Just last weekend I videoed a minor RW collision (the type that happens
> all
> > the time) and one of the skydiver's pud got pulled out as a result. So,
> > now, here I am, floating above a RW group with a guy that may have a
> > premature deployment.
> >
> > At least when minor RW collisions happen with BOCs, they don't have a lot
> of
> > chance to prematurely deploy.
> >
> > Anyway, just my two cents.
>
> Paul,
>
> You need to rethink your position. It is far more likely that you will at
> some point experience a premature deployment coming at you from a throwout
> rig than a pullout. The only way on a pullout that the main is coming out
> is by the pin being physically extracted, whereas with the throwaway the
> extraction is initiated mechanically allowing for many different scenarios
> to start the process!
>
Not sure I understand your distinction between "physically" and
"mechanically". Surely a pin that is mechanically extracted is
physically extracted too, mechanics being a subset of physics and all...
Do you have a hypothesis about why throwouts are far more common than
pullout systems?
Martin Evans
> Martin, I understand what you're saying, but to me, and maybe I'm wrong
> here, educate me if I am, if the pud can come loose and be flopping around
> as a result of a minor RW collision/funnel, then isn't it also likely that
> it could just as easily also pull the pin?
I'd say it's possible (isn't everything) but highly unlikely. In my early
days, (I've always jumped a pud on my own gear) with the systems employed
back then floating dildos were pretty common, I've had a few but never a
premature deployment. The stowing methods used nowadays, along with the
newer mechanics used in the construction of todays pullouts make them far
superior to their early day counterparts!
> As a camera flyer, anytime I see -anything- flopping around on one of the
> jumpers I immediately get off to the side of the formation because it just
> looks like trouble.
Well this is of course a wise thing to do.
> A floating pud, to me, seems like a pretty bad thing.
If I saw this I'd for sure move back a bit but I wouldn't be as concerned as
I would if I saw a piece of bridle or F111/ZP poking out of a pilot chute
pouch!
> I'm thinking if there's one minor collision that causes something like
this,
> then it's possible that sometime later in the same skydive it's going to
> happen again, only this time, the floating pud will get caught on
something,
> pulling the pin, opening the container and causing a mess.
If this was on a system that was constructed in the last decade and anything
less than a damn good grab or a snatch of the pud caused it to seperate
from the container, then I'd say that it's highly likely that there is a
gear maintainance or stowing problem that needs to be addressed here. If
this is on a very old system then it would be advisable, in my opinion, for
the owner to have the deployment system upgraded to one that uses a modern
schematic.
> I realise there's -probably- not enough drag on the floating pud alone to
> pull the pin, but geeze, I'm not going to test that theory out with -my-
> body.
Another wise decision. If it's possible it will happen, it's just a matter
of when!
> On the other hand, I can't say I've ever seen a BOC pilot chute get
> dislodged as a result of the same type of minor collision/funnel. Maybe
you
> have. Maybe I'm just still too new at this.
I have, many times. A couple were up close and very personal others were on
other cameraflyers footage and made me cringe just as if it were me the
canopy was coming at (in a way it was, but I was relatively safe as I was
tucked up on the couch at the time ;-)
Martin Evans
I'd say that most that understand the distinction between (or even know
that a system exists besides throwaway and ripcord) understand what I mean.
i.e. you physically open the container rather than the pilot chute
machanically doing it for you! Why don't you try to be less high faluting
and go bother the eggheads at alt.I'mwaymoreintelligentthanyoudick.com
> Do you have a hypothesis about why throwouts are far more common than
> pullout systems?
I don't even know what hypothesis means. Why don't you go research google,
it's all been said before and much of it was directly aimed at you if I
recall correctly.
> > With the pullout systems employed by today's modern containers
accidental
> > extraction is very rare!
Sorry but I really don't have time to waste splitting hairs with you (but
i'm sure that won't stop you coming back with some highly well thought out
demeaning comment that most and certainly this dumb muvverfuker won't
understand!.
Gotta go skydive now.
C'ya.
Koolswoops
two things or maybe both.
1 The PC was not put in the pouch properly ie. not deep enough. or
2 the BOC pouch is worn and should be replaced...DB
and let's not for get the increased posibility of line dump with a pull out
Dave Miller
"Koolswoops" <kools...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010618114145...@ng-mm1.aol.com...
>
> and let's not for get the increased posibility of line dump with a pull
out
Can anyone expand on that. Why is there an "increased posibility of line
dump with a pull out"?
Dave Miller
JimBo
>Can anyone expand on that. Why is there an "increased posibility of line
>dump with a pull out"?
>
>Dave Miller
I dont feel that to be a legitimate claim.
Line dump is usually associated with too loose locking stows , broken rubber
bands or tube stows, allowing an out of sequence deployment,,,causing a "dump"
per se.
jim
Man small, why fall ? Skies call, thats all.
prof
Martin Evans wrote:
>
> > > The only way on a pullout that the main is coming
> out
> > > is by the pin being physically extracted, whereas with the throwaway the
> > > extraction is initiated mechanically allowing for many different
> scenarios
> > > to start the process!
> > >
> >
> > Not sure I understand your distinction between "physically" and
> > "mechanically". Surely a pin that is mechanically extracted is
> > physically extracted too, mechanics being a subset of physics and all...
>
> I'd say that most that understand the distinction between (or even know
> that a system exists besides throwaway and ripcord) understand what I mean.
> i.e. you physically open the container rather than the pilot chute
> machanically doing it for you! Why don't you try to be less high faluting
> and go bother the eggheads at alt.I'mwaymoreintelligentthanyoudick.com
>
Why is it my fault if you're ambiguous? Some kind of reverse snobbery
here? Seems to me that pulling a pin with a pud is just as much a
mechanical action as pulling it with a pilot chute, and in both cases
the pin is physically extracted from the closing loop.
> > Do you have a hypothesis about why throwouts are far more common than
> > pullout systems?
>
> I don't even know what hypothesis means. Why don't you go research google,
> it's all been said before and much of it was directly aimed at you if I
> recall correctly.
>
Yes you do, and your memory is defective since I've never previously
participated in a thread on this subject.
Have a lovely day.
Ann T. Poblenz
aircombats and funnels were a common thing rather that the exception:-)..I never
seen my pud (Racer type) float.. It doesnt come out as easy as you think.
I do have a total due to packing error on a pull-out. that would be the thing to
worry about.. easy remedy.. pack yourself or ask the packer to leave the bridle
out so you can check it...
I preffer the pull-out.. cleaner.. but thit is only my oppinion...
My 2 cents
:-)
Ann T. Poblenz
Wendy Faulkner
>Martin, I understand what you're saying, but to me, and maybe I'm wrong
>here, educate me if I am, if the pud can come loose and be flopping around
>as a result of a minor RW collision/funnel, then isn't it also likely that
>it could just as easily also pull the pin?
>
>pull the pin, but geeze, I'm not going to test that theory out with -my-
>body.
Well, for various reasons over the years I've accumulated 3 rigs, 2 with
BOC throwouts and one with a pullout. I'm quite comfortable with both
deployment systems. Remember here that on a pullout rig, it has a straight pin
rather than a curved one. It has to be pulled horizontally - vertical pull
won't deploy it because the pin isn't curved like on throwouts.
I know back in the days of leg-strap throw-outs that I accidently deployed a
friend once. Guess it really wasn't a gripper I had a hold of :-) My pud is
very secure. I think it would be much more difficult to accidently deploy my
pullout rig than my throwout - the curved pin comes out noticably easier from
more angles. And I've seen video of more than one pilot chute coming loose in
videos of horny gorillas and tube dives. Kinda worries me. The whole
horseshoe thing is my nightmare scenario. Having had a couple of friends die
from horseshoes over the years, makes me more paranoid than most. A horseshoe
on a pullout is much less likely than having your main deploy with the BOC
still in the pouch on the throwout systems.
Even if my pud is floating - its never more than 1 inch away from where it
started (it physically can't go any farther) so finding it isn't a problem for
me.
All in all, next rig I buy I'll probably go ahead and get another pull-out. It
just feels like a safer deployment system.
Wen
>On the other hand, I can't say I've ever seen a BOC pilot chute get
>dislodged as a result of the same type of minor collision/funnel. Maybe you
>have. Maybe I'm just still too new at this.
--
Martin Evans
"prof" <pr...@teamfunnel.com> wrote in message
news:3B2E3D7A...@teamfunnel.com...
> > > Do you have a hypothesis about why throwouts are far more common than
> > > pullout systems?
> Martin Evans wrote:
> > I don't even know what hypothesis means. > >
Prof wrote:
> Yes you do
> Why is it my fault if you're ambiguous?
See! You're doing it again!
> Have a lovely day.
You too!
Martin Evans
> > > Do you have a hypothesis about why throwouts are far more common than
> > > pullout systems?
> Martin Evans wrote:
> > I don't even know what hypothesis means. > >
Prof wrote:
> Yes you do
> Why is it my fault if you're ambiguous?
See! You're doing it again, using big words that I don't understand!
> Have a lovely day.
You too!
--
LORD OF THE SKY
>
> I'd say that most that understand the distinction between (or even know
> that a system exists besides throwaway and ripcord) understand what I
mean.
> i.e. you physically open the container rather than the pilot chute
> machanically doing it for you! Why don't you try to be less high faluting
> and go bother the eggheads at alt.I'mwaymoreintelligentthanyoudick.com
>
> Why don't you go research google,
> it's all been said before and much of it was directly aimed at you if I
> recall correctly.
>
> Sorry but I really don't have time to waste splitting hairs with you (but
> i'm sure that won't stop you coming back with some highly well thought out
> demeaning comment that most and certainly this dumb muvverfuker won't
> understand!.
>
> Gotta go skydive now.
>
> C'ya.
>
Sounds like Martins' having a bad day
What happened ? Did a cute puppy land and crap on your lawn a second
time after your weak attempt at a dropkick?
Manually may have been a better choice of words than physically IMO.
"Treetop" a.k.a. LORD OF THE SKY
gypcees
troy
Martin Evans <skyeyes...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:VcoX6.86488$4f7.7...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Jan Meyer
> I have thought about going to pullout at times. It is clear that a non-deployed horseshoe mal is
> eliminated with this deployment type, but what are the complications with pullout?
see Deployment Initiators on
http://www.makeItHappen.com/spsj
(i.e. why has the
> industry adopted BOC so readily rather than pullout??)
>
Legacy and because most people do not understand deployment systems.
Legacy: The throw-n-tow system originally had the handle on a belly band
- where you could see the handle. The MAJOR justification for using the
throw-n-tow was because you could 'see the handle'.
Later, the location of the pilot chute migrated to the back of the
legstrap. This alleviated some of the 'twisted belly band' problems, but
it introduced the mis-routing the bridle line around the harness. Still
you could 'see the handle'.
Many people used the ROL system over the pud system because of 'you
could see the handle' reason.
Recently, the location has migrated to the bottom of the container. This
improvement has virtually eliminated the problem of the bridle line
being routed around the harness. That's a good thing.
The BOC has introduced a new failure mode that did not occur on belly
band or ROL systems. This new failure mode is when the container opens
prematurely and the PC is still in the pouch. The bottom flap of the
container can move about. This makes extracting the PC (to eliminate the
horseshoe) difficult, altho not impossible. The recent fatality
illustrates just how dangerous this failure mode can be.
In contrast, a premature opening of the container with a pud usually
results in instant canopy. The pud handle gets pulled out of the pocket
or off the velcro. There is no horseshoe to deal with.
As obvious as this is: you cannot see the handle on a BOC, so the
'seeing the handle' reason is no longer a reason to go with a BOC. The
large number of people that had ROL converted to BOC - instant market
dominance. Add in not understanding the different systems and you
maintain BOC dominance.
BTW, 'not seeing the handle' is an advantage - as long as you use your
eyes to monitor altitude.
All deployment systems work - when you do them right.
Failure modes are significantly different. Those failure modes should be
used in deciding upon which system to use.
--
Jan Meyer, D7833
RU a New Jumper?? - check out Study Guide for USPA License Exams
at http://www.MakeItHappen.com/products/uspaexam.html
mailto:Aeroso...@MakeItHappen.com
http://www.MakeItHappen.com
http://www.DiveMaker.com
Jan Meyer
>
> Martin, I understand what you're saying, but to me, and maybe I'm wrong
> here, educate me if I am, if the pud can come loose and be flopping around
> as a result of a minor RW collision/funnel, then isn't it also likely that
> it could just as easily also pull the pin?
the same type of collision on a boc might extract (partially or
completely) the pilot chute - that would result in a premee too.
>
> As a camera flyer, anytime I see -anything- flopping around on one of the
> jumpers I immediately get off to the side of the formation because it just
> looks like trouble. A floating pud, to me, seems like a pretty bad thing.
Floating puds aren't THAT big of a deal. I've had 5 or 6 floating puds -
on the old, old style racer pud. (all pile velcro pud placed on a
rectangular shaped piece of hook velcro on the bottom of the container)
None of them resulted in a premature deployment. i have had ZERO
floating puds on the current design of the Racer pud. I've had that
style since 1983 or 84?
I've seen more premature deployments from throw-n-tow pilot chutes
working their way out or accidentally snagged than puds.
>
> I'm thinking if there's one minor collision that causes something like this,
> then it's possible that sometime later in the same skydive it's going to
> happen again, only this time, the floating pud will get caught on something,
> pulling the pin, opening the container and causing a mess.
>
> I realise there's -probably- not enough drag on the floating pud alone to
> pull the pin, but geeze, I'm not going to test that theory out with -my-
> body.
>
> On the other hand, I can't say I've ever seen a BOC pilot chute get
> dislodged as a result of the same type of minor collision/funnel. Maybe you
> have. Maybe I'm just still too new at this.
>
--
Jan Meyer
> and let's not for get the increased posibility of line dump with a pull out
why do you say this or where did you hear this?
Jan Meyer
> I do have a total due to packing error on a pull-out. that would be the thing to
> worry about.. easy remedy.. pack yourself or ask the packer to leave the bridle
> out so you can check it...
You can check the routing of the short bridle line - the one between the
pin and pud as part of your gear check.
gently pull the bridle line out from under the container flap.
make sure it runs directly from the handle to the pin, passing thru the
grommet.
It should NOT be wrapped around the pilot chute. This is the most common
mis-routing.
then tuck it back under the container flap.
Aviatrr
understand how it works to understand the arguments made here..
A pull out is just a handle with a very short bridle attached, which has the
container closing pin(straight, not curved) at the end of the short piece of
bridle....right so far?
After the pin, is the PC then attached via another piece of bridle(or extenion
of the same bridle to be more correct), and is released into the airstream only
after the pin is pulled? In other words - when properly packed, is the PC
located under the closing flaps, only to be exposed to the airflow after the
pin is pulled?
Other than the initial sequence, from what I understand, the pull out is the
same as the throw out.. After the PC is exposed, the handle(and PC) is thrown
out into the airflow and the bag is extracted in the same way - right?
Mike
Martin Evans
"LORD OF THE SKY" <lord...@ellijay.com> wrote in message
news:9glrt...@enews3.newsguy.com...
>
> Martin Evans <skyeyes...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:uepX6.86560$4f7.7...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> >
> > I'd say that most that understand the distinction between (or even know
> > that a system exists besides throwaway and ripcord) understand what I
> mean.
> > i.e. you physically open the container rather than the pilot chute
> > machanically doing it for you! Why don't you try to be less high
faluting
> > and go bother the eggheads at alt.I'mwaymoreintelligentthanyoudick.com
> >
> > Why don't you go research google,
> > it's all been said before and much of it was directly aimed at you if I
> > recall correctly.
>
> >
> > Sorry but I really don't have time to waste splitting hairs with you
(but
> > i'm sure that won't stop you coming back with some highly well thought
out
> > demeaning comment that most and certainly this dumb muvverfuker won't
> > understand!.
> >
> > Gotta go skydive now.
> >
> > C'ya.
> >
> Sounds like Martins' having a bad day
Not at all. Why is it that if ones shows disdain for another others jump to
the conclusion that they must be having a bad day or that the other has hit
a nerve. Why can't it just be that one person doesn't care for anothers
attitudes, motives or methods?
> What happened ? Did a cute puppy land and crap on your lawn a second
> time after your weak attempt at a dropkick?
Nothing I ever do can be described as a weak attempt. I may (on the odd
occasion) fail in my endevour but the attempt is never weak! You know what
though, for those of you who have been closly following the great dog crap
saga...our dropzone has become decidly poop free since posting my feelings
here and all without having to launch one puppy into the stratosphere...ah!
the power of the newsgroup!
> Manually may have been a better choice of words than physically IMO.
and you may well be right at that. Excuse me 'O'great treeflop' for being
tardy with my choice of words...
Other than that...bite me!
LORD OF THE SKY
Jan Meyer <Aeroso...@MakeItHappen.com> wrote in message
news:3B2ECBEA...@MakeItHappen.com...
> Many people used the ROL system over the pud system because of 'you
> could see the handle' reason.
Yes! I like the fact that I can see the handle. There is no question as to
where the handle is as I can look and see the handle!
Now many have attempted to sway me in the past by offering this; You
don't have to look for your wallet do you?
Well yes I have. More than a few times I've gone for my wallet and it
was not there.
Generally it was lying on a restroom floor.
I like the security of being able to visually identify my handles.
> Recently, the location has migrated to the bottom of the container. This
> improvement has virtually eliminated the problem of the bridle line
> being routed around the harness. That's a good thing.
>
> The BOC has introduced a new failure mode that did not occur on belly
> band or ROL systems. This new failure mode is when the container opens
> prematurely and the PC is still in the pouch. The bottom flap of the
> container can move about. This makes extracting the PC (to eliminate the
> horseshoe) difficult, altho not impossible. The recent fatality
> illustrates just how dangerous this failure mode can be.
>
> In contrast, a premature opening of the container with a pud usually
> results in instant canopy.
What the hell are you talking about?
My first rig was a ROL and had a pud.
>
> BTW, 'not seeing the handle' is an advantage - as long as you use your
> eyes to monitor altitude.
Well then, Perhaps we all ought to hide our reserve and cutaway handles
from ourselves as well!!!!!!! IT WILL BE A GREAT ADVANTAGE !!!!!
We could all play Ollie, Ollie, Oxen Free when it is time to pull our
emergency handles!!!!!
L.L.M
out the handle is on top of the pilot chute on a pull out the handle is on the
bottom. With a pull out the wind will almost always rip the pilot chute out of your
hand where as i have seen people with throw outs hang on to there pilot chutes for
awhile. On a pull out when you extract the pin the pilot chute is comeing out at
the same time and starting to inflate once clear of your burble. I like that. I
know if i can see my pilot chute that my pin is pulled. I have had two of the
common pull out malfunctions, out of sequence deployment (bad body position) and I
have had a premature deployment. With the premature deployment I had scraped the
pud on the door frame before climbing into the crotch of a cessna. My pud must have
been floating in the prop blast but with the pilot chute still firmly tucked under
the flaps. The prop blast was enough to start pulling the pin but not expose the
pilot chute. We launched a successfull 4way. At around 6000ft my main deployed to
my suprise. With a pull out there is usually a good 6in of bridle before you get to
the pilot chute or start pulling the pin. It is my opinion that if I had snagged
the handle on a throw out and pulled out 6in or even just 4 inches of pilot chute
the malfunction could have happened while I was in crotch. I have watched alot of
people at my DZ go away from pull outs but I like them and the thought of a throw
out horseshoe scares the shit out of me I have also watched people with throw outs
reaching for there bridle to pull it because the pilot chute did not pull the pin.
With my pull out if I cant pull the handle nothing is coming out I can dump my
reserve and not worry about it snagging my pilot chute in tow because it is still
tucked under the flap. But I have also learned that no matter what system you jump
just be comfortable with it. Know the problems with the depolyment system you
choose. I understand the idea behind the pullout and I like it... Just my 2 cents
Pull or Die
Lonnie Morrison
D20138
Dave Miller
pull out than a throw out? Less chance of the pc going over the strut? It's
bad enough making sure no one launches your reserve over the strut. I am
looking for a new rig and I really like the idea of the pull out but I don't
want to trade a solution for a new problem so I want to know all the pros
and cons before I make a decission.
Dave Miller
"L.L.M" <lmorr...@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:3B2F610D...@qwest.net...
> It is my opinion that if I had snagged the handle on a throw out and
pulled out 6in or even just 4 inches of pilot chute
> the malfunction could have happened while I was in crotch. >
> Lonnie Morrison
>
> D20138
>
D3331
L.L.M
(handle) on the pull out I could have some where around 4-6inches of bridle
hanging out before pin or pilot chute wants to start coming out. If I had a
throw out with the handle attached to the actual top of the pilot chute that
would have meant 4-6 inches of exposed pilot chute in the prop blast. I think
that that makes me more nervous then just a loose handle and some exposed
bridle. I aways check my handle now as part of my climb out. It has only come
loose that one time. the matilda sits pretty flush with the container. I dont
like the plastic pud on a pull out. More ways to get caught on something with
the only benefit being a bigger handle to grab.I truly dont know which system is
better I know I am more comfortable with the pull out.
Lonnie Morrison
D20138
Livendive
dump my
> reserve and not worry about it snagging my pilot chute in tow because it
is still
> tucked under the flap.
I've watched a guy with a floating pud dump his reserve, which was followed
out immediately by his main that subsequently entagled his feet. I landed
next to him and helped get him ready for his ride in the pretty helicoptor.
Pullouts and throwouts can both fail.
Blues,
Dave