PADI Dive Master Question
kAnO
qualification (PADI) and possibly get some work out there. I'm Open Water at the moment but the
thing that concerns me is my swimming ability - it's not fantastic, but I get by fine diving.
I've looked at the "tests" on the PADI site, does anyone know how strict they are generally? When
both myself and my brother did our open water we weren't asked to do the 200m swim or the 10 minutes
tread water.
TIA.
--
kAnO
A fool-proof method for sculpting an elephant: first, get a huge block of marble; then you chip away
everything that doesn't look like an elephant.
Jason O'Rourke
>I'm going to Cairns in a couple of months for a year and would like to get my Dive Master
>qualification (PADI) and possibly get some work out there. I'm Open Water at the moment but the
>thing that concerns me is my swimming ability - it's not fantastic, but I get by fine diving.
One would hope that you did better than 'get by fine' if you're going to
pretend to be a dive leader.
But, this being PADI, you need only find your local equilivent to Pro Dive
and I'm sure you'll have that badge in no time.
--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com
kAnO
> kAnO <kano249...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >I'm going to Cairns in a couple of months for a year and would like to get my Dive Master
> >qualification (PADI) and possibly get some work out there. I'm Open Water at the moment but the
> >thing that concerns me is my swimming ability - it's not fantastic, but I get by fine diving.
>
> One would hope that you did better than 'get by fine' if you're going to
> pretend to be a dive leader.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying I'm no good at swimming I just don't know how "tough" the tests
are.
Tim
improve your swimming abilities), you should not be a DM at all.
Divemastering involves some motivation & hard work, and the supervision
& assistance of other divers requires diligence, not complacency.
Firewalker
news:a1d6fp$q5l26$1...@ID-86974.news.dfncis.de...
> "Jason O'Rourke" <j...@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
news:a1d5tu$19p1$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
know how "tough" the tests
> are.
Well, you need AOW and Rescue first, so I would suggest you look into those
courses. While you're doing them, ask the instructor about the Divemaster
requirements.
Ian Cox
kAnO
> With your attitude ("How strict are they?" instead of working to
> improve your swimming abilities), you should not be a DM at all.
> Divemastering involves some motivation & hard work, and the supervision
> & assistance of other divers requires diligence, not complacency.
I'm fully aware of the commitment etc. needed and I am also working to improve my swimming ability.
You assume complacency when I ask about the only part of the course I'm not sure about. Why does
this constitute a bad "attitude"? I'm not looking for it to be easy, or to cheat. I'm looking for an
answer to a simple question. If it was easy then it wouldn't be worth doing. Don't be so quick to
judge people.
Brian Wagner
>
> "Jason O'Rourke" <j...@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message news:a1d5tu$19p1$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
> > kAnO <kano249...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >I'm going to Cairns in a couple of months for a year and would like to get my Dive Master
> > >qualification (PADI) and possibly get some work out there. I'm Open Water at the moment but the
> > >thing that concerns me is my swimming ability - it's not fantastic, but I get by fine diving.
> >
> > One would hope that you did better than 'get by fine' if you're going to
> > pretend to be a dive leader.
>
> Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying I'm no good at swimming I just don't know how "tough" the tests
> are.
>
pause, you have no business being in a leadership position in an
aquatic sport. They are not that hard. If you are going to be
responsible for others in the water, they should be a cakewalk,
i.e. if you have to ask this question, then you shouldn't
consider it. How long have you been diving, anyway?
Brian Wagner
>
> I'm going to Cairns in a couple of months for a year and would like to get my Dive Master
> qualification (PADI) and possibly get some work out there. I'm Open Water at the moment but the
> thing that concerns me is my swimming ability - it's not fantastic, but I get by fine diving.
>
> I've looked at the "tests" on the PADI site, does anyone know how strict they are generally? When
> both myself and my brother did our open water we weren't asked to do the 200m swim or the 10 minutes
> tread water.
divemaster.
kAnO
news:3C3A2B09...@cle.philips.com...
About two years.
Like I said to 'Tim' I'm not overly concerned about it, I was just after an idea of what to expect.
Forewarned is forearmed, and such.
As much as anything I was mystified why I was never asked to complete any swimming for my OW and
when I found out that my brother wasn't either (different dive centres, different countries) I
wondered how common this is. Surely a cause for concern.
MHK
>
> I've looked at the "tests" on the PADI site, does anyone know how strict
they are generally?
The only question that PADI really cares about is whether or not your check
clears, or do you have enough room on your credit card, other then that,
most of the *tests* are pretty much negotiable...
Later
Tim
>
> "Tim" <Nightw...@home.com> wrote in message news:3C3A2354...@home.com...
> > With your attitude ("How strict are they?" instead of working to
> > improve your swimming abilities), you should not be a DM at all.
> > Divemastering involves some motivation & hard work, and the supervision
> > & assistance of other divers requires diligence, not complacency.
>
> I'm fully aware of the commitment etc. needed and I am also working to improve my swimming ability.
If you were "fully aware" of the commitment, you wouldn't have asked
about how strict they are in enforcing the swim test minimums. You know
the requirements from the PADI web page -- you're concerned about wether
or not they're enforced. That's not ignorance, that's laziness.
> You assume complacency when I ask about the only part of the course I'm not sure about. Why does
> this constitute a bad "attitude"? I'm not looking for it to be easy, or to cheat. I'm looking for an
> answer to a simple question. If it was easy then it wouldn't be worth doing. Don't be so quick to judge people.
I judged you based on the info you provided, and my experiences as a
diver for almost 24 years and an active Divemaster --including assisting
with the DM class water proficiency tests-- for almost 10 years. Now
you're waffling. Your first post said that you weren't a great swimmer &
expressed some concern about the DM swim tests. Now you're trying to
redact that.
But the issue is rather moot -- you have a long way to go in terms of
certification & experience, as well as dare I say maturity, before you'd
be ready for the DM class. Even if you don't realize that yet, I think
it's clear to others.
Unlike most of the other classes available, what you come away with
from the Divemaster class is a level of authority amd responsibility,
which in turn means liability not only for yourself, but the business
you're an agent of. As of now, the DM swim tests should be the least of
your worries, but the good news is that you've got a couple prerequisite
classes to deal with first.
Have fun in Cairns as an OW diver.
Tim
MHK
> What PADI *tests* have you taken, Mike Kane?
I fell for the trick several times before I got a clue..
I fell for the OW through DM *test* and a few BS specialty courses, so
what's your point?????
kAnO
> kAnO wrote:
> >
> > "Tim" <Nightw...@home.com> wrote in message news:3C3A2354...@home.com...
> > > With your attitude ("How strict are they?" instead of working to
> > > improve your swimming abilities), you should not be a DM at all.
> > > Divemastering involves some motivation & hard work, and the supervision
> > > & assistance of other divers requires diligence, not complacency.
> >
> > I'm fully aware of the commitment etc. needed and I am also working to improve my swimming
ability.
>
> If you were "fully aware" of the commitment, you wouldn't have asked
> about how strict they are in enforcing the swim test minimums. You know
> the requirements from the PADI web page -- you're concerned about wether
> or not they're enforced. That's not ignorance, that's laziness.
No, the point I'm making is that I have never timed myself swimming. Therefore I have absolutely no
idea how long it takes me to swim 400 hundred metres. So, are the times allocated harsh etc? I don't
know if 14 minutes is a long time to swim 400 hundred metres but I *can* swim 400 hundred metres
(and the 800 metres for the other test). Badly worded my original post may have been but lazy I
certainly am not.
> > You assume complacency when I ask about the only part of the course I'm not sure about. Why
does
> > this constitute a bad "attitude"? I'm not looking for it to be easy, or to cheat. I'm looking
for an
> > answer to a simple question. If it was easy then it wouldn't be worth doing. Don't be so quick
to judge people.
>
> I judged you based on the info you provided, and my experiences as a
> diver for almost 24 years and an active Divemaster --including assisting
> with the DM class water proficiency tests-- for almost 10 years.
Exactly my point. You judged me. Answer the question, give your opinions by all means but don't
judge me.
> you're waffling. Your first post said that you weren't a great swimmer &
> expressed some concern about the DM swim tests. Now you're trying to
> redact that.
Waffling? No. I'm not a great swimmer - but then my definition of great is not swimming 800 hundred
metres in fins. That's my definition of adequate. You may have a slightly lower expectation.
> But the issue is rather moot -- you have a long way to go in terms of
> certification & experience,
Which is the final point I made - I *could* sit the AOW (4 days), then the Rescue Diver (already
First Aid Qualified) which is 3 or 4 days and then I'm ready to start. I'm not saying that's right
and I'm not saying that's how it should be done - but that's how it *could* be done.
> as well as dare I say maturity, before you'd
> be ready for the DM class. Even if you don't realize that yet, I think
> it's clear to others.
Very insightful. The ability to sum up a person so quickly is a gift, I'm sure.
> Unlike most of the other classes available, what you come away with
> from the Divemaster class is a level of authority amd responsibility,
> which in turn means liability not only for yourself, but the business
> you're an agent of. As of now, the DM swim tests should be the least of
> your worries, but the good news is that you've got a couple prerequisite
> classes to deal with first.
As I stated, those are hardly a major obstruction.
> Have fun in Cairns as an OW diver.
I will have fun regardless, rest assured.
Jason O'Rourke
>> as well as dare I say maturity, before you'd
>> be ready for the DM class. Even if you don't realize that yet, I think
>> it's clear to others.
>
>Very insightful. The ability to sum up a person so quickly is a gift, I'm sure.
I think Tim summed you up rather accurately. This will be one of the
few times I think he's right, too.
Perhaps you had misphrased the words in the first place when you asked
if you could get away without doing the tests, but your later posts
left no doubt.
Jason O'Rourke
>What PADI *tests* have you taken, Mike Kane?
Mike failed the marketing and sales test.
kAnO
> kAnO <kano249...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> as well as dare I say maturity, before you'd
> >> be ready for the DM class. Even if you don't realize that yet, I think
> >> it's clear to others.
> >
> >Very insightful. The ability to sum up a person so quickly is a gift, I'm sure.
>
> I think Tim summed you up rather accurately. This will be one of the
> few times I think he's right, too.
Because you know me too?
> Perhaps you had misphrased the words in the first place when you asked
> if you could get away without doing the tests, but your later posts
> left no doubt.
I *never* asked if I could get away without doing the tests and I would never start the course if I
didn't know I could complete them. What I commented on, and what is concerning, is that I was never
tested for my OW course and I know at least one other person who wasn't. Does that not bother you?
Especially if it's the same across the board?
Tim
asking for clarification when you don't understand something, Mike.
I'm sorry though that you were cognitively dysfunctional enough to
have taken "several" (though it sounds like "many" would be more
apropos, Mike....) of the offending classes before you got the clue, but
with all the other certifying agencies around -- NAUI, YMCA, WKPP (oops,
sorry, WKPP isn't a certifying agency), I hope it's some consolation to
you that so many other people didn't & aren't afflicted with the same
dysfunction as you are or were, and I'm sure many others now will stay
away from PADI after being enlightened by your brilliantly detailed
post...
To refresh your memory of that post, here it is:
> The only question that PADI really cares about is whether or not your > check
> clears, or do you have enough room on your credit card, other then that,
> most of the *tests* are pretty much negotiable...
I'm not a PADI cheerleader, but I have even less respect for people
that make rather broad statements, and who apparently out of arrogance
or dementia (or a combination of the two), don't make any effort to
support their assertion.
It's clear from your many other lengthy posts that you have plenty of
time on your hands to pontificate about things that trouble you, and I
encourage you to spend some of that time a little more beneficially, and
start making an effort to support those claims.
Perhaps you can start off with listing the specific 'negotiations' you
had with PADI regarding the PADI tests (written and skill demonstration)
that have damaged your tender psyche so badly, and how these PADI tests
are so much different than the recreational diver tests administered by
the other training agencies.
What examples do you have of people failing the PADI tests, but
obtaining the PADI certifications anyway, simply because payment was
rendered? How do you know this is a systematic fault with PADI?
In my own experiences over the years, I have witnessed and/or been
partially responsible for several people --who as far as I know had paid
class fees in full-- NOT obtaining the certification they paid for,
because they did not meet the established knowledge/proficiency
standards.
Thank you.
MHK
Tim,
So basically you needed a long winded post to figure out that I think PADI
sold out???? I been very public about my comments, and my written requests
to PADI, do a search if you need more info because I'm not going to waste
time going back just because you're having a temper tantrum..
The fact is that PADI has lead the way in watering down standards, and
handing out C-cards like they were candy and I don't have the time or
inclination to have the same discussion every time some new PADI propaganda
artists asks me to highlight their slide from grace..
Go see my last thread wherein another genius from the PADI crowd hands out 7
specialties in a weekend-a-thon and then spend some time defending exactly
how it is you think a student can comprehend all that supposed info in the
short amount of allotted time.. Then explain to me how PADI can award a
wreck diver rating when you don't even need to dive inside a wreck???
Explain to me how they award there deep air BS rating when they don't even
need to dive deep???
BTW, what the hell is your point??? Because I could spend all day exposing
the PADI BS, so do you actually have anything to say, or are you just
posting to see your name???
Later
Michael Painter
my Dive Master
> qualification (PADI) and possibly get some work out there. I'm Open Water
at the moment but the
> thing that concerns me is my swimming ability - it's not fantastic, but I
get by fine diving.
>
> I've looked at the "tests" on the PADI site, does anyone know how strict
they are generally? When
> both myself and my brother did our open water we weren't asked to do the
200m swim or the 10 minutes
> tread water.
>
your instructor left those off what else may be missing?
If you can cover 5 miles in less than an hour on land without being half
dead then you should be able to do the Dive Master events with little
problem.
If you're serious and care about the people you will be working with then
get in the water and time yourself.
I'd also suggest finding another instructor who is serious about what he
does. Or at least realizes the liability incurred if there is a problem and
he has more money that you do.
Popeye
>From: RAT BASTARD
> Thanks for asking what my point is.
He didn't mean it.
> It's a refreshing change to see you
>asking for clarification when you don't understand something, Mike.
Let's try something new:
RAT BASTARD
RAT BASTARD
RAT BASTARD
RAT BASTARD
RAT BASTARD
RAT BASTARD
Popeye
Chicks dig scars.
Jammer Six
<kano249...@yahoo.com> wrote:
€Especially if it's the same across the board?
Oh, he's going to be a *great* DM.
Coffee, boy!
Black, hot, and now!
--
"We're going to rush the hijackers."
-Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001
Jason O'Rourke
>If you can cover 5 miles in less than an hour on land without being half
>dead then you should be able to do the Dive Master events with little
>problem.
12min miles are *much* easier than doing the 400m under 10. You need
at least a tiny bit of form to do it.
mike gray
Now we know how ya passed em.
mike gray
>
> In article <3C3A3A1F...@home.com>, Tim <Nightw...@home.com> wrote:
> >What PADI *tests* have you taken, Mike Kane?
>
> Mike failed the marketing and sales test.
***** (five stars)
Robert Wood
Then explain to me how PADI can award a
> wreck diver rating when you don't even need to dive inside a wreck???
No Mike, you misunderstood, it's the "around the wreck" rating.
[\]Robert Wood
The St. Lawrence River - fresh, warm, visible diving.
http://www.magma.ca/~rgwood
icediver
I became a divemaster with them, in 1995. At that time, you
were required to complete an 800-meter swim in under 15 minutes
(roughly) plus some other skills that were not exactly easy.
I have heard that nowadays, the skills requirements are much
easier, but that is second-hand info. And BTW, this newsgroup
is dominated by paper tigers who love to bash PADI, so you
are not likely to get an accurate answer here, or reliable
information on just about anything scuba-related for that matter.
Good luck with your course in Cairns...what a great diving
location.
"kAnO" <kano249...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<a1d5po$ptuf5$1...@ID-86974.news.dfncis.de>...
> I'm going to Cairns in a couple of months for a year and would like to get my Dive Master
> qualification (PADI) and possibly get some work out there. I'm Open Water at the moment but the
> thing that concerns me is my swimming ability - it's not fantastic, but I get by fine diving.
>
> I've looked at the "tests" on the PADI site, does anyone know how strict they are generally? When
> both myself and my brother did our open water we weren't asked to do the 200m swim or the 10 minutes
> tread water.
>
> TIA.
Tim
MHK wrote:
> So basically you needed a long winded post to figure out that I think PADI
> sold out???? I been very public about my comments, and my written requests
> to PADI, do a search if you need more info because I'm not going to waste
> time going back just because you're having a temper tantrum..
You're very public with long-winded with hyperbole, but when someone
challenges you & requests that you get specific & support your rambling
diatribes, you can't do it. I dunno if that makes you a moron, coward,
or just some asshole that gets off by trying to berate PADI. I think
it's definitely one of the three though.
> The fact is that PADI has lead the way in watering down standards, and
> handing out C-cards like they were candy and I don't have the time or
> inclination to have the same discussion every time some new PADI > propaganda artists asks me to highlight their slide from grace..
You clearly do have the time & inclination to launch into topics
you're passionate about, it's the ability to cogently support your
claims that you lack. I think that makes a lot of your posts come
across as worthles whining.
Pity.
Dennis (Icarus)
>
>
> MHK wrote:
>
> > So basically you needed a long winded post to figure out that I think
PADI
> > sold out???? I been very public about my comments, and my written
requests
> > to PADI, do a search if you need more info because I'm not going to
waste
> > time going back just because you're having a temper tantrum..
>
> You're very public with long-winded with hyperbole, but when someone
> challenges you & requests that you get specific & support your rambling
> diatribes, you can't do it. I dunno if that makes you a moron, coward,
dunno? A garmmarian like you using 'dunno'? :-)
> or just some asshole that gets off by trying to berate PADI. I think
> it's definitely one of the three though.
Posted 2001-08-13 by MHK
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3006282111d&selm=fsVd7.8675%24Ge7.116
2739920%40newssvr17.news.prodigy.com
I walked out of a PADI IDC about 6 years ago, because I viewed it as not a
learning experience but their attempt to show you how to sell continuing
PADI
education classes.. I'm 4 months into this internship and have a ways to
go.. Even after all my experience I know I still have a long way to go..
And that's the biggest difference that I've noticed.. If I would agree to
pimp PADI classes, I could be a PADI instructor at the end of the week..
I'm not ready at this point to be a GUE instructor.. Therein lies the
intangible differences in philosophy between the agencies...
And if you want some other good reading,
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2260748886d&selm=6t4bkr%24foaq%241%40
newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com
This article is the start of the thread. You may have to cut-n-paste the two
lines together.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2260748886d&selm=6t4bkr%24foaq%241%40
newssvr04-int.news.prodigy.com
I found these in about 5 minutes by looking for PADI in rec.scuba with the
author MHK.
>
> > The fact is that PADI has lead the way in watering down standards, and
> > handing out C-cards like they were candy and I don't have the time or
> > inclination to have the same discussion every time some new PADI >
propaganda artists asks me to highlight their slide from grace..
>
> You clearly do have the time & inclination to launch into topics
> you're passionate about, it's the ability to cogently support your
> claims that you lack. I think that makes a lot of your posts come
> across as worthles whining.
>
> Pity.
I think its the idea of retyping the same stuff over & over again that'd get
annoying. Its in google. Look there, read it, and then ask. :-)
Course maybe MHK would be kind enough to summarize it, put it on the best of
rec.scuba page, then all he'd have to do is say 'look here'.
I doubt that'd be sufficient for you, though.
Dennis
Bottle o' Rum
is do you really want to be a DM, or is it just a stepping off point on the
way to instructor? If the latter, fine. I'm not trying to burst your
bubble, but if you think DM'ing is like finding some part-time job, think
again. I can say I've been there, done that, and now I wouldn't touch it
with a 10-ft pole. Lots of time, money, and effort expended in exchange for
a few lousy perks and some liability that'll scare the bejeezuz out of you.
Like I said, I'm not trying to burst your bubble, if DM'ing is what floats
your boat, go for it, but weigh the pros and cons first. However, I do
highly recommend the Rescue cert, every diver should have it, it's well
worth the effort.
"kAnO" <kano249...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a1d5po$ptuf5$1...@ID-86974.news.dfncis.de...
> I'm going to Cairns in a couple of months for a year and would like to get
my Dive Master
> qualification (PADI) and possibly get some work out there. I'm Open Water
at the moment but the
> thing that concerns me is my swimming ability - it's not fantastic, but I
get by fine diving.
>
> I've looked at the "tests" on the PADI site, does anyone know how strict
they are generally? When
> both myself and my brother did our open water we weren't asked to do the
200m swim or the 10 minutes
> tread water.
>
> TIA.
>
Rig2
>tested for my OW course and I know at least one other person who wasn't.
>Does that not bother you?
Yes, it does bother me (not the person to whom you are replying). The role of
a divemaster, in spite of the opinion of some of the regulars on this newsgroup
who feel that the divemaster role is bes filled by their local Starbucks
counter goof, is a leadership and professional role in recreational diving.
If your basic water skills were never evaluated in your open water class, I
would have serious reservations about your ability to pass a rescue course much
less depend upon your ability to act in an emergency situation. Does your
first aid certification also include CPR? Are you also trained in Oxygen
Provider such as through DAN? If not, you are no where close to being ready
for divemaster.
Get your basic skills in place, learn to swim, learn to dive. Then dive, dive,
dive some more. Get your emergency skills up to date, learn to organize and
plan dive excursions for groups based on their experience, learn the legalities
of leading dives, then consider divemaster training. Or, stick with the PADI
shop you are using and accept the consequences and liabilities you assume when
you buy a card.
Warren
kAnO
>
> Oh, he's going to be a *great* DM.
>
> Coffee, boy!
>
> Black, hot, and now!
<yawn>
Tim
"Dennis (Icarus)" wrote:
> I think its the idea of retyping the same stuff over & over again that'd get
> annoying. Its in google. Look there, read it, and then ask. :-)
I think PADI's marketing ploys suck too, and I figured all that out
without having to take the IDC.
> Course maybe MHK would be kind enough to summarize it, put it on the best of
> rec.scuba page, then all he'd have to do is say 'look here'.
>
> I doubt that'd be sufficient for you, though.
You're right, it'd be insufficient, as it has nothing to do with the
simple, specific questions I directed towards him.
Dennis (Icarus)
>
>
> "Dennis (Icarus)" wrote:
>
> > I think its the idea of retyping the same stuff over & over again that'd
get
> > annoying. Its in google. Look there, read it, and then ask. :-)
>
> I think PADI's marketing ploys suck too, and I figured all that out
> without having to take the IDC.
So you & MHK agree then...?
>
> > Course maybe MHK would be kind enough to summarize it, put it on the
best of
> > rec.scuba page, then all he'd have to do is say 'look here'.
> >
> > I doubt that'd be sufficient for you, though.
>
> You're right, it'd be insufficient, as it has nothing to do with the
> simple, specific questions I directed towards him.
So a page describing his claims, supporting 'em with examples, including
letters writteen to the PADI board, etc would be insufficient? It is, IIRC,
what you were asking about. :-)
Dennis
Brian Wagner
>
> Like I said to 'Tim' I'm not overly concerned about it, I was just after an idea of what to expect.
> Forewarned is forearmed, and such.
The short answer is, if you have to ask, you're not ready. If
you don't feel you can say "Bring it on!" and just do it, then
you're not ready.
> As much as anything I was mystified why I was never asked to complete any swimming for my OW and
> when I found out that my brother wasn't either (different dive centres, different countries) I
> wondered how common this is. Surely a cause for concern.
THAT is a cause for concern. It's called the downward creep of
standards.
All the more reason you should approach DM from the standpoint of
overpreparation.
Brian Wagner
>
> You assume complacency when I ask about the only part of the course I'm not sure about. Why does
> this constitute a bad "attitude"? I'm not looking for it to be easy, or to cheat. I'm looking for an
> answer to a simple question. If it was easy then it wouldn't be worth doing.
Then why are you asking how hard it is? You have the
requirements in writing available to you. If your protestations
denying complacency are accurate, you should be able to assume
the toughest possible interpretation and still shrug it off as no
problem.
Brian Wagner
>
> No, the point I'm making is that I have never timed myself swimming.
Well, gee, then, don't you think it might be a good idea to do so
before you make statements to hundreds of strangers here about
your swimming ability?
> Therefore I have absolutely no idea how long it takes me to swim 400 hundred metres.
Seems then your question is one for your stopwatch, not for us.
> So, are the times allocated harsh etc?
No, like everything else PADI does, they're laughably easy.
> I don't know if 14 minutes is a long time to swim 400 hundred metres but I *can* swim 400 hundred metres
> (and the 800 metres for the other test). Badly worded my original post may have been but lazy I
> certainly am not.
Really? Most sprint triathlons involve an 800 meter swim, and
the results, including swim splits, are posted online.
Do the legwork.
> Exactly my point. You judged me. Answer the question, give your opinions by all means but don't
> judge me.
He gave you his opinions. If you don't like his conclusions,
then perhaps you should more carefully consider the information
you gave him to draw them from. If you don't like being judged,
then I suggest you forget the DM course, because it will involve
the instructor judging you on a number of things.
> Waffling? No. I'm not a great swimmer - but then my definition of great is not swimming 800 hundred
> metres in fins. That's my definition of adequate. You may have a slightly lower expectation.
My point was that you should be better than adequate. You should
be at the point where you don't need to ask these questions - you
just know you can handle it.
> Which is the final point I made - I *could* sit the AOW (4 days), then the Rescue Diver (already
> First Aid Qualified) which is 3 or 4 days and then I'm ready to start. I'm not saying that's right
> and I'm not saying that's how it should be done - but that's how it *could* be done.
Which is moot if you don't think it's right or what you would
do. To thine own self be true.
Brian Wagner
>
> I *never* asked if I could get away without doing the tests and I would never start the course if I
> didn't know I could complete them. What I commented on, and what is concerning, is that I was never
> tested for my OW course and I know at least one other person who wasn't. Does that not bother you?
> Especially if it's the same across the board?
IF that was the actual intent of your post, then you REALLY need
to work on your communication skills.
The reaction you are getting seems pretty universal, and the
reason is that no reasonable user of the English language could
read your original post and not see the intent people are giving
you a hard time for.
Brian Wagner
>
> To refresh your memory of that post, here it is:
>
> > The only question that PADI really cares about is whether or not your > check
> > clears, or do you have enough room on your credit card, other then that,
> > most of the *tests* are pretty much negotiable...
>
> I'm not a PADI cheerleader, but I have even less respect for people
> that make rather broad statements, and who apparently out of arrogance
> or dementia (or a combination of the two), don't make any effort to
> support their assertion.
His assertion was accurate. I know instructors who have been
told by Course Directors to pass DM candndates unable to meet
requirements because "they're the customer."
> and how these PADI tests
> are so much different than the recreational diver tests administered by
> the other training agencies.
Covered many times in this forum.
> What examples do you have of people failing the PADI tests, but
> obtaining the PADI certifications anyway, simply because payment was
> rendered? How do you know this is a systematic fault with PADI?
Again, examples have been posted here.
> In my own experiences over the years, I have witnessed and/or been
> partially responsible for several people --who as far as I know had paid
> class fees in full-- NOT obtaining the certification they paid for,
> because they did not meet the established knowledge/proficiency
> standards.
Good for you. How does it feel to finally learn that everybody
is not as upstanding as you are?
Brian Wagner
>
> You're very public with long-winded with hyperbole, but when someone
> challenges you & requests that you get specific & support your rambling
> diatribes, you can't do it.
He posted plenty of specific support last week - where were you?
> You clearly do have the time & inclination to launch into topics
> you're passionate about, it's the ability to cogently support your
> claims that you lack.
No, what he lacks is the patience to constantly re-post it for
lazy people like you who weren't paying attention the first time.
Brian Wagner
>
> You're right, it'd be insufficient, as it has nothing to do with the
> simple, specific questions I directed towards him.
Actually, some of it does, but you wouldn't know that because
you're to lazy to look.
Brian Wagner
>
> That was a standards violation, you should have been required to do them. If
> your instructor left those off what else may be missing?
No, sadly, the OW swim prereq's are not mandatory with PADI.
> If you can cover 5 miles in less than an hour on land without being half
> dead then you should be able to do the Dive Master events with little
> problem.
Um, not quite. I was running 8 miles a day in under an hour, and
cycling 20 a day in about an hour, when I
entered my first triathlon. Didn't help in the swim. For the
next one, three weeks of lap swimming made all the difference.
MHK
"Tim" <Nightw...@home.com> wrote in message > You're very public with
long-winded with hyperbole, but when someone
> challenges you & requests that you get specific & support your rambling
> diatribes, you can't do it. I dunno if that makes you a moron, coward,
> or just some asshole that gets off by trying to berate PADI. I think
> it's definitely one of the three though.
The fact is that I repeatedly post back up, support and reasons.. I
constantly e-mail PADI and ask for their response and more often then not
they decline to respond.. When they do respond I post it word for word to
provide for a balanced point of view.. When I put on demo's I invite PADI,
but it seems as though the entire PADI clan always has scheduling
conflicts..
What you fail to see is that I always support my positions but every week or
so we'll get another clueless newbie that wants to stick their head out and
defend PADI and then they say, support this and support that, when in
reality if they weren't too lazy to look it up you'd see that the issue was
beaten to death in the past with specific citations attached..
I'll back up everything I say, but I'm not going to waste my time re-typing
everything, every time one of the new PADI puppets gets all worked up..
> You clearly do have the time & inclination to launch into topics
> you're passionate about, it's the ability to cogently support your
> claims that you lack.
I'd suggest you learn how to use a search engine because everything I say
has been supported, your just new to the game and think I'll waste my time
doing your homework for you..
I think that makes a lot of your posts come
> across as worthles whining.
I think your attempts at supporting PADI make you look like a newbie who is
clueless about what really goes on..
Later
Tim
>
> "Tim" <Nightw...@home.com> wrote in message > You're very public with
> long-winded with hyperbole, but when someone
> > challenges you & requests that you get specific & support your rambling
> > diatribes, you can't do it. I dunno if that makes you a moron, coward,
> > or just some asshole that gets off by trying to berate PADI. I think
> > it's definitely one of the three though.
>
> The fact is that I repeatedly post back up, support and reasons.. I
> constantly e-mail PADI and ask for their response and more often then not
> they decline to respond.. When they do respond I post it word for word to
> provide for a balanced point of view.. When I put on demo's I invite PADI,
> but it seems as though the entire PADI clan always has scheduling
> conflicts..
So your feelings are hurt because PADI doesn't jump at the opportunity
to respond to you and attend your demos?
> What you fail to see is that I always support my positions but every week or
> so we'll get another clueless newbie that wants to stick their head out and
> defend PADI and then they say, support this and support that, when in
> reality if they weren't too lazy to look it up you'd see that the issue was
> beaten to death in the past with specific citations attached..
The claim that the issue has been 'beaten to death' unfortunately
doesn't stop you from blowing a gasket and routinely berating PADI, solo
diving, etc. in posts. Then when someone challenges you to back-up some
specific claims, you suddenly just suggest that your prior posts be
checked for the evidence to support your more recent claims. What a
twit!
> I'll back up everything I say, but I'm not going to waste my time re-typing
> everything, every time one of the new PADI puppets gets all worked up..
Hey, I think PADI is almost as dumb as you are, and that's a pretty
major insult to PADI... I suppose your "PADI puppet" paranoia reduces
any guilt or embarassment you have over not being able to support your
claims.
> > You clearly do have the time & inclination to launch into topics
> > you're passionate about, it's the ability to cogently support your
> > claims that you lack.
>
> I'd suggest you learn how to use a search engine because everything I say
> has been supported, your just new to the game and think I'll waste my time
> doing your homework for you..
I think pretty much everything you say & how you say it tends to
support my claim that you're just some asshole who hates PADI (which is
fine), but doesn't have the ability to support your diatribes with any
factual evidence. I'm glad you've decided to waste your time (and) do my
homework for me. To minimize the time you waste, all I'm asking you to
do is to logically & factually defend your initial comment about PADI
not caring about skills & scores, but just caring about whether the
student has paid in full.
> I think that makes a lot of your posts come
> > across as worthles whining.
>
> I think your attempts at supporting PADI make you look like a newbie who is
> clueless about what really goes on..
No, stupid, I'm not supporting PADI, I've been wasting time asking you
to support your claims about the PADI tests. There is a difference.
You're the fool who got part-way through the PADI IDC before you
finally realized all the marketing junk that 'PADI Professionals' are
supposed to abide by. I figure that out during my PADI DM class almost
10 years ago, so methinks you fit the "clueless newbie" label more than
I do!
But instead of trading barbs & witticisms, I'm still hoping you'll
enlighten me with evidence supporting your broad assertion regarding
PADI tests. That's all I've been asking for.
Randy F. Milak
>
> PADI has relaxed their watermanship skills considerably since
> I became a divemaster with them, in 1995. At that time, you
> were required to complete an 800-meter swim in under 15 minutes
> (roughly) plus some other skills that were not exactly easy.
That 800 metre/15 minutes may have been what you were told (which is a
great motivation) but that is not, nor has it ever been the case.
To answer the original posters question (of which I too am suspect of
their motives)...
The DM candidate is required to satisfactorily complete the DM
watermanship and skills assessment, of which there are 4 phases of
evaluation that make up a total of 60 points. One of those 4 parts is a
watermanship and stamina assessment which itself is made up of 4
exercises. The candidate can rate up to a possible 20 points in that
section alone but must score at least 12 to pass. Essentially, if the
DM candidate scored 5 on two of the four exercises, and at least 2 on a
third exercise, they wouldn't even have to attempt the last exercise
(technically speaking of course... unlikely that any DM candidate
wouldn't want the challenge of doing them all, right?) The entire
portion is either 'passed' or 'failed', not one individual watermanship
test. Those exercises are:
Exercise 1 - 400 metre swim.
This is how you will be scored:
Time Points
< 6 min 5-excellent
< 8 min 4-above average
< 10 min 3-average
< 12 min 2-below average
> 12 min 1-poor
Exercise 2 - 15 minute tread
This is how you will be scored:
Evaluation Criteria Points
1. Complete satisfactorily 5-excellent
2. Stayed afloat but hands not kept
above water for entire last 2 min. 3-average
3. Basically anything else. 1-poor
Exercise 3 - 800 metre snorkel swim
Time Points
< 13 min 5-excellent
< 15 min 4-excellent
< 17 min 3-average
< 19 min 2-below average
> 19 min 1-poor
Exercise 4 - 100 metre Inert Diver Tow
Time Points
< 2 min 5-excellent
< 3 min 4-excellent
< 4 min 3-average
< 5 min 2-below average
> 5 min 1-poor
> I have heard that nowadays, the skills requirements are much
> easier, but that is second-hand info. And BTW, this newsgroup
> is dominated by paper tigers who love to bash PADI, so you
> are not likely to get an accurate answer here, or reliable
> information on just about anything scuba-related for that matter.
Now now, be nice; you were doing so well. Those meds you were taking
just before Christmas seemed to work well. Time to up the dosage maybe?
--
Randy F. Milak
~Rec.scuba, where some couldn't find their way through a maze even if
the rats helped them!~
MHK
"Tim" <Nightw...@home.com> wrote in message
> So your feelings are hurt because PADI doesn't jump at the opportunity
> to respond to you and attend your demos?
No, you clueless moron.. I'm not offended at all, it's just that when
idiots like you get on here and espouse the PADI puppet line I want to make
sure that PADI has been extended the proper opportunity to defend themselves
and their actions.. I'm still waiting for PADI to defend the deep air BS,
but they refuse to respond.. Unlike many, I think that in order to
criticize someone you first have to bring the comments to their attention,
allow them the opportunity to defend themselves, and if they consistenly
refuse then I believe public comments are warranted.. So I see PADI refusal
to respond to basic questions as a dodge of the issues so rather then go
away quietly I open the discussion up for public comments and let the people
judge for themselves.. PADI is free to address the comments if they so
chose, but to date the money keeps rolling in so they don't bother...
>
> The claim that the issue has been 'beaten to death' unfortunately
> doesn't stop you from blowing a gasket and routinely berating PADI, solo
> diving, etc. in posts. Then when someone challenges you to back-up some
> specific claims, you suddenly just suggest that your prior posts be
> checked for the evidence to support your more recent claims. What a
> twit!
Moron, if I spent every post that I made re-typing and re-posting things
that you are too lazy to look up I wouldn't get any work done.. It's an old
debating trick and I don't fall for it.. My comments are a matter of public
record and if you want to know what I said, look it up...
> Hey, I think PADI is almost as dumb as you are, and that's a pretty
> major insult to PADI... I suppose your "PADI puppet" paranoia reduces
> any guilt or embarassment you have over not being able to support your
> claims.
You're just to dumb to understand them...
Later
Tim
MHK wrote:
>
> "Tim" <Nightw...@home.com> wrote in message
>
> > So your feelings are hurt because PADI doesn't jump at the opportunity
> > to respond to you and attend your demos?
>
> No, you clueless moron.. I'm not offended at all, it's just that when
> idiots like you get on here and espouse the PADI puppet line I want to make
> sure that PADI has been extended the proper opportunity to defend themselves
> and their actions.. I'm still waiting for PADI to defend the deep air BS,
> but they refuse to respond.. Unlike many, I think that in order to
> criticize someone you first have to bring the comments to their attention,
> allow them the opportunity to defend themselves, and if they consistenly
> refuse then I believe public comments are warranted.. So I see PADI refusal
> to respond to basic questions as a dodge of the issues so rather then go
> away quietly I open the discussion up for public comments and let the people
> judge for themselves.. PADI is free to address the comments if they so
> chose, but to date the money keeps rolling in so they don't bother...
And you've been invited & requested numerous times to defend your BS
about PADI, but you keep dodging that.
> > The claim that the issue has been 'beaten to death' unfortunately
> > doesn't stop you from blowing a gasket and routinely berating PADI, solo
> > diving, etc. in posts. Then when someone challenges you to back-up some
> > specific claims, you suddenly just suggest that your prior posts be
> > checked for the evidence to support your more recent claims. What a
> > twit!
>
> Moron, if I spent every post that I made re-typing and re-posting things
> that you are too lazy to look up I wouldn't get any work done.. It's an old
> debating trick and I don't fall for it.. My comments are a matter of public
> record and if you want to know what I said, look it up...
Gee, I'm noticing a trend here... You have plenty of time to whine
about things, and then spend plenty of time claiming over & over again
that you don't have the time to debate the issue on-point.
If you truly had any evidence to support your tantrums, you'd take the
time to post them in furtherance of your beliefs. Instead, you just
ramble on. And you have the audacity to wonder why PADI doesn't respond
to you?!!
> > Hey, I think PADI is almost as dumb as you are, and that's a pretty
> > major insult to PADI... I suppose your "PADI puppet" paranoia reduces
> > any guilt or embarassment you have over not being able to support your
> > claims.
>
> You're just to dumb to understand them...
The only thing I'm being dumb about is wasting time with a
pathological liar like Mike Kane, but the more we play, the stronger my
assertation that you can't support your reckless claim gets.
George
electrons to say:
-- The only thing I'm being dumb about is wasting time with a
--pathological liar like Mike Kane, but the more we play, the stronger my
--assertation that you can't support your reckless claim gets.
Hmmm. Open filters>add kill filter>Author: Nightw...@home.com><<plonk>>
and Timmy, is assertion, not assertation.
Geo
"Never Time To Do It Right, Always Time to Do It Over"
MR MOTOz 21
Ron W
Bob Crownfield
>
> MHK wrote:
> >
> > "Tim" <Nightw...@home.com> wrote in message
> >
> > > So your feelings are hurt because PADI doesn't jump at the opportunity
> > > to respond to you and attend your demos?
> >
> > No, you clueless moron.. I'm not offended at all, it's just that when
> > idiots like you get on here and espouse the PADI puppet line I want to make
> > sure that PADI has been extended the proper opportunity to defend themselves
> > and their actions.. I'm still waiting for PADI to defend the deep air BS,
> > but they refuse to respond.. Unlike many, I think that in order to
> > criticize someone you first have to bring the comments to their attention,
> > allow them the opportunity to defend themselves, and if they consistenly
> > refuse then I believe public comments are warranted.. So I see PADI refusal
> > to respond to basic questions as a dodge of the issues so rather then go
> > away quietly I open the discussion up for public comments and let the people
> > judge for themselves.. PADI is free to address the comments if they so
> > chose, but to date the money keeps rolling in so they don't bother...
>
> And you've been invited & requested numerous times to defend your BS
> about PADI, but you keep dodging that.
clueless and wrong.
>
> > > The claim that the issue has been 'beaten to death' unfortunately
> > > doesn't stop you from blowing a gasket and routinely berating PADI, solo
> > > diving, etc. in posts. Then when someone challenges you to back-up some
> > > specific claims, you suddenly just suggest that your prior posts be
> > > checked for the evidence to support your more recent claims. What a
> > > twit!
> >
> > Moron, if I spent every post that I made re-typing and re-posting things
> > that you are too lazy to look up I wouldn't get any work done.. It's an old
> > debating trick and I don't fall for it.. My comments are a matter of public
> > record and if you want to know what I said, look it up...
>
> Gee, I'm noticing a trend here... You have plenty of time to whine
> about things, and then spend plenty of time claiming over & over again
> that you don't have the time to debate the issue on-point.
>
> If you truly had any evidence to support your tantrums, you'd take the
> time to post them in furtherance of your beliefs. Instead, you just
> ramble on. And you have the audacity to wonder why PADI doesn't respond
> to you?!!
pay attention next time,
instead of asking people to do your chores for you.
icediver
Signal to noise ratio (this thread) = 42 out of 50,
Icediver obsession rating (cumulative) = 84 out of 100.
DIR anger level = 22 percent.
"Randy F. Milak" <rfm...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3C3B5F8C...@yahoo.com>...
icediver
too, as in his thread "SoCal looses it's first diver of the year."
Being a pathological liar is not correctable (DIR requirement)
but spelling and grammar are. Tutor him, George...TIA.
George <ghmo...@sympaticonot.ca> wrote in message news:<re0n3ucur6bv7ii04...@4ax.com>...
Dennis (Icarus)
<snip of a timmy diatribe>
So, Tim, have y'looked at the references I posted?
Dennis
Brian Wagner
>
> Geez, this is the best catfight I've seen here in some time ;o)
>
icediver
up to date listing of PADI requirements in the current thread,
"Divemaster Certification Question." Doggonit Milksac, for
a brief while I thought you had actually been right for once.
Keep trying.
"Randy F. Milak" <rfm...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3C3B5F8C...@yahoo.com>...
Capt Jim Wyatt
>No, sadly, the OW swim prereq's are not mandatory with PADI.
must be able to swim 200 yards & tread water 10 minutes.
--
Captain Jim Wyatt
PADI Master Instructor #4612
Florida Keys Reef-Divers
http://reef-divers.com
SFM
allowing students to snorkel instead of swimming?.
The swim requirement can be replaced with the 300 yard snorkel. But one or
the other must be done prior to certification at the OW level.
Scott
MSDT-150972
"Capt Jim Wyatt" <j...@reef-divers.com> wrote in message
news:919238E0Cjim....@65.82.44.7...
Brian Wagner
>
> Jim the swim requirement is NOT mandatory, remember the training bulletin on
> allowing students to snorkel instead of swimming?.
>
> The swim requirement can be replaced with the 300 yard snorkel. But one or
> the other must be done prior to certification at the OW level.
>
What he said.
Shawn Willden
>>No, sadly, the OW swim prereq's are not mandatory with PADI.
>
> WRONG---swim tests are required by PADI for OW certification. The diver
> must be able to swim 200 yards & tread water 10 minutes.
I had to do this even for a resort course at the place I certified (the
resort course dive hooked me and I decided to spend the next three days of
my vacation certifying).
Shawn.
Tom Albano
I had to do a 200yd swim also when I got my OW cert. And since my
middle name is "rock", it was the most difficult part of the training.
Tom
S_chewba
"MHK" <mhk...@prodigy.net> skrev i melding
news:Iyr_7.2783$7P3.33...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
> Go see my last thread wherein another genius from the PADI crowd hands out
7
> specialties in a weekend-a-thon and then spend some time defending exactly
> how it is you think a student can comprehend all that supposed info in the
> short amount of allotted time.. Then explain to me how PADI can award a
> wreck diver rating when you don't even need to dive inside a wreck???
> Explain to me how they award there deep air BS rating when they don't even
> need to dive deep???
You can't judge an organization because one dive center didn't follow the
standards. In the thread you're reffering too I belive your arguments
pointing negatively at the organization were shut down effectively and
correctly.
> BTW, what the hell is your point??? Because I could spend all day
exposing
> the PADI BS, so do you actually have anything to say, or are you just
> posting to see your name???
The point being that when someone (you) makes such a pathetic statement,
other people are bound to react.
The thing that strikes me is that: This looks like someone that didn't get
his certification card cause he couldn't meet the standards and are having
bad feelings about the organization.
Hope you managed to meet other agencies standards so you could get your
C-card somewhere else.
S_chewba
S_chewba
"Tim" <Nightw...@home.com> skrev i melding
news:3C3AA290...@home.com...
> I think PADI's marketing ploys suck too, and I figured all that out
> without having to take the IDC.
Guess it's because they suck that they're so small in the diving
industry........
S_chewba
S_chewba
> I'm still waiting for PADI to defend the deep air BS,
> but they refuse to respond.. Unlike many, I think that in order to
> criticize someone you first have to bring the comments to their attention,
> allow them the opportunity to defend themselves, and if they consistenly
> refuse then I believe public comments are warranted.. So I see PADI
refusal
> to respond to basic questions as a dodge of the issues so rather then go
> away quietly I open the discussion up for public comments and let the
people
> judge for themselves.. PADI is free to address the comments if they so
> chose, but to date the money keeps rolling in so they don't bother...
Well, then it's good for us others to know that people with your experience,
scientiffic resourses and knowledge in diving hase judged it to be unsafe by
definition.
Statistics will show you that you're wrong, but you'll probably just ignore
that too.
> You're just to dumb to understand them...
Good thing we've got more intelligent people on here like you that can
educate us stupid individuals :)
S_chewba
S_chewba
"Brian Wagner" <brian....@cle.philips.com> skrev i melding
news:3C3B1282...@cle.philips.com...
> His assertion was accurate. I know instructors who have been
> told by Course Directors to pass DM candndates unable to meet
> requirements because "they're the customer."
Which is one of the reasons why PADI proffessionals are getting suspended
and expelled.
> > How do you know this is a systematic fault with PADI?
>
> Again, examples have been posted here.
And a few examples makes proof of systematic faults by an agency operating
in 170+ countries ?
Yeah right. I honestly don't think you even belive what you're claiming your
self.
> Good for you. How does it feel to finally learn that everybody
> is not as upstanding as you are?
There are bad seeds wherever you go. PADI has theirs, but they try to "hunt
them down" and have them expelled. And they are doing so much more
intesively than any other agency. The organization has a genuine commitment
to quality and has it's own branch dedicated to this work which is more than
you can say about other agencies.
S_chewba
Randy F. Milak
>
> It seems Capt Jim Wyatt has provided a more accurate and
> up to date listing of PADI requirements in the current thread,
> "Divemaster Certification Question." Doggonit Milksac, for
> a brief while I thought you had actually been right for once.
> Keep trying.
I'm sorry, I see no such thread entitled "Divermaster Certification
Question"? What information did the Captain post that contradicts what
I've posted? Are you perhaps referencing the post in this thread
entitled, "Re: PADI Dive Master Question" where the good Captain states,
"WRONG---swim tests are required by PADI for OW certification. The
diver must be able to swim 200 yards & tread water 10 minutes."?
I fail to see what this has to do with DM certification? Further, he
is incorrect. Mr. Wagner has posted the most current standard with
regard to the latter. I'd humbly submit that one need only read their
instructor manual's errata to avoid such corrigendum and remain current.
--
Randy F. Milak
~I see your IQ is once again equal to that of three men: Larry, Curly,
and Moe...~
Brian Wagner
>
> Guess it's because they suck that they're so small in the diving
> industry........
Yet another one who thinks size determines anything but that P.T.
Barnum was right.
I suppose the fact that "Laverne & Shirley" had the highest
Nielsen ratings of all time
proves that it was the greatest example of the art, and
McDonald's is the pinnacle of culinary excellence, right?
Brian Wagner
>
> Which is one of the reasons why PADI proffessionals are getting suspended
> and expelled.
The Course Director was sent by PADI HQ to help start the
program.
> And a few examples makes proof of systematic faults by an agency operating
> in 170+ countries ?
If you paid attention, the examples posted have been of
inadequate training that meets the letter of their standards,
which have elicited responses from longtime PADI cheerleaders
that the standards are meant to be exceeded, which only further
shows them to be lousy.
> Yeah right. I honestly don't think you even belive what you're claiming your
> self.
Where have you been? I have also posted examples from PADI's own
internal announcements to members that clearly show they don't
care about anything but making money. I don't believe it? I
believe it all because, as a member, I see the rot from the
inside.
> There are bad seeds wherever you go. PADI has theirs, but they try to "hunt
> them down" and have them expelled.
Not really. The QA effort is really more of a sham. I see the
list of actions every quarter.
> And they are doing so much more
> intesively than any other agency. The organization has a genuine commitment
> to quality
They have a genuine commitment to profit, and nothing else.
"We're not selling education, we're selling entertainment" - Gary
Joyce, Midwest sales director, member update 2000.
"Our largest business competitors are other action sport
industries, such as
snow skiing and mountain biking, which require little to no
training to get
started. Today's society expects instant gratification and
convenience." - Bob Coleman, Director of Marketing at PADI
Americas.
Dennis (Icarus)
effectiveness.
Rather, respresents disdain for the approach used.
Dennis
"S_chewba" <outc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a1lbs4$l8h$2...@lise.netcom.no...
S_chewba
> The Course Director was sent by PADI HQ to help start the
> program.
And on the news today I heard while investigating the Enron bankrupcy the
criminal investigators found leads all the way into the oval office. Just
like there are bad seeds among the general public there are bad seeds in
"higher places". It's human to fail, and even leaders are humans.
> If you paid attention, the examples posted have been of
> inadequate training that meets the letter of their standards,
> which have elicited responses from longtime PADI cheerleaders
> that the standards are meant to be exceeded, which only further
> shows them to be lousy.
None of the standards are ment to me exceeded.
Let's talk statistics here. If PADI cerfitfies say, 70.000 divers in a year.
And 1000 of them have failed to fullfill one or a few of the standards. 1000
is a high number, but still it's only a litle less than 1,5% of the total
number.
Big numbers talk. And the higher the number the more likely you will find
deviations from the standards.
Another and interesting fact is that some organizations doesn't operate with
speciffic standards like PADI does, so you can't really measure if an
instructor are doing things right or not. And when it comes to pedagogics
and learning material which are also an important part of the learning
process no other organization even come close to what PADI can offer.
Still want to recommend a instructor from another organizations "home made
open water course" ?
Go ahead, but don't try to convince my friends it's a good idea :)
> Where have you been? I have also posted examples from PADI's own
> internal announcements to members that clearly show they don't
> care about anything but making money. I don't believe it? I
> believe it all because, as a member, I see the rot from the
> inside.
Think you should try to read that article or whatever it was one more time.
Sounds like lack of reading skills have lead you onto a path where no
substantial can be produced to back up your claim.
> Not really. The QA effort is really more of a sham. I see the
> list of actions every quarter.
In fact PADI is like the Mafia right ? LOL
I can't belive all the paranoia out there. It never stop to suprise me how
many people who are notorious in how the misinterperate information they
recive.
> They have a genuine commitment to profit, and nothing else.
That's why they started the non-profit organization A.W.A.R.E right ?
You're really amusing :)
> "We're not selling education, we're selling entertainment" - Gary
> Joyce, Midwest sales director, member update 2000.
And what is an open water experience for the certified divers ?
Is it a job, or is it an experience ?
Is it an alternative to going to work, or alternative to spend the time in a
cinema ?
Getting impulses and new experiences from your hobby can be very
entertaining. If you don't find that you are entertained by your hobby, you
should probably find something else to do instead :)
> "Our largest business competitors are other action sport industries, such
as
> snow skiing and mountain biking, which require little to no training to
get
> started. Today's society expects instant gratification and
> convenience." - Bob Coleman, Director of Marketing at PADI
> Americas.
That's just a statement of the marked situation. Even governmental
educational facilities, colleges, universities +++ have to think in those
terms.
You think PADI invented the concept of marketing ?
Get real :)
S_chewba
S_chewba
> S_chewba wrote:
> Yet another one who thinks size determines anything but that P.T.
> Barnum was right.
> I suppose the fact that "Laverne & Shirley" had the highest
> Nielsen ratings of all time
> proves that it was the greatest example of the art, and
> McDonald's is the pinnacle of culinary excellence, right?
Because PADI and McDonalds have unsatisfied custommers that they treat badly
all the time is the reason why noone can challange their market position. Of
course the loosers get annoyed by this and try to come up with a thousand
reason why to think badly about McD and PADI. Why ?
Because they are too stupid to come up with anything better them selfs.
S_chewba
Jason O'Rourke
>Because PADI and McDonalds have unsatisfied custommers that they treat badly
>all the time is the reason why noone can challange their market position. Of
>course the loosers get annoyed by this and try to come up with a thousand
>reason why to think badly about McD and PADI. Why ?
>Because they are too stupid to come up with anything better them selfs.
A mantra in the tech realm is: fast, cheap, good. Pick two.
Mcdonald's is fast and cheap, and has its role in fattening us up. It
certainly is not fine dining.
You can tell us if you think that sort of role has a place in dive instruction.
--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com
S_chewba
"Jason O'Rourke" <j...@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> skrev i melding
news:a1nqhn$2fg6$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
> A mantra in the tech realm is: fast, cheap, good. Pick two.
>
> Mcdonald's is fast and cheap, and has its role in fattening us up. It
> certainly is not fine dining.
>
> You can tell us if you think that sort of role has a place in dive
instruction.
I was just stating that a company that doesn't supply what the custommers
are asking for won't gain market shares.
The wannabe divers ask for experiences, and they want to do it in a safe,
controlled and comfortable way.
PADI market shares are still rising and what better indication that they
provide what the custommers ask for can you get ?
If diving was unsafe the total market would decrease, which would probably
not be in PADI's interest, right ?
Everyone knows this, even PADI, so in order to stay in business and gain
market shares they have to provide a product that makes the experience safe.
No matter if it's the bottomline that is the main goal or any other goal
that are tried to be achived by the organizations, the only way to akomplish
the goal would be to maintain a reputation and statistics that shows how
safe diving can be.
So what role do I think it has in dive instructions ?
It is the single most important thing ! To provide what the wannabe
certified are asking for; new experiences in a a controlled and safe way.
Best way to measure what organisation that provide all these three: Market
shares.
S_chewba
Jason O'Rourke
>PADI market shares are still rising and what better indication that they
>provide what the custommers ask for can you get ?
Are you sure their share is actually increasing? I believe SSI has taken
a rather substantial chunk of business away from them in recent years,
and this is especially evident in the number of SF Bay Area shops shifting
to that agency. A recent tally put PADI at about 50%, with NAUI and SSI
splitting most of the remainder.
I won't comment much of whether or not customers are making informed decisions.
Atkins
> A mantra in the tech realm is: fast, cheap, good. Pick two.
Not just a diving thing, either. This is my own motto when looking for gigs... It
works.
kari
Bob Crownfield
>
>
> I was just stating that a company that doesn't supply what the custommers
> are asking for won't gain market shares.
> The wannabe divers ask for experiences, and they want to do it in a safe,
> controlled and comfortable way.
> PADI market shares are still rising and what better indication that they
> provide what the custommers ask for can you get ?
half their customers have only a 2 digit IQ.
>
>
> S_chewba
S_chewba
> Are you sure their share is actually increasing? I believe SSI has taken
> a rather substantial chunk of business away from them in recent years,
> and this is especially evident in the number of SF Bay Area shops shifting
> to that agency. A recent tally put PADI at about 50%, with NAUI and SSI
> splitting most of the remainder.
>
> I won't comment much of whether or not customers are making informed
decisions.
I forgot, SF is the only place where open water courses are being conducted.
For an organization operating in more than 170 countries of course they have
their ups and downs in different areas at different times.
S_chewba
"Bob Crownfield" <Crown...@Home.com> skrev i melding
news:3C3FBD...@Home.com...
That is a statement I would certainly not support. But I must say that when
a person manages to come up with a statement like you just did, it strongly
suggests that the number of digits on the IQ side that lead to the statement
are rather limmited.
S_chewba
Jason O'Rourke
>> Are you sure their share is actually increasing? I believe SSI has taken
>> a rather substantial chunk of business away from them in recent years,
>> and this is especially evident in the number of SF Bay Area shops shifting
>> to that agency. A recent tally put PADI at about 50%, with NAUI and SSI
>> splitting most of the remainder.
>
>For an organization operating in more than 170 countries of course they have
>their ups and downs in different areas at different times.
You must have forgotten your brains too, since that wasn't implied.
SSI's attack on PADI has been very successful because that agency
makes the dive shop's health the primary mission.
S_chewba
> S_chewba <outc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> Are you sure their share is actually increasing? I believe SSI has
taken
> >> a rather substantial chunk of business away from them in recent years,
> >> and this is especially evident in the number of SF Bay Area shops
shifting
> >> to that agency. A recent tally put PADI at about 50%, with NAUI and
SSI
> >> splitting most of the remainder.
> >
> >I forgot, SF is the only place where open water courses are being
conducted.
> >For an organization operating in more than 170 countries of course they
have
> >their ups and downs in different areas at different times.
>
> You must have forgotten your brains too, since that wasn't implied.
You implied that because PADI lost market shares to SSI in the SF Bay area
PADI was loosing market shares in general.
So where did the brain go ?
> SSI's attack on PADI has been very successful because that agency
> makes the dive shop's health the primary mission.
And competition is healthy since it forces all the players to work hard on
providing the best product to the custommers. Isn't that why we like
competition in all kinds of markets ?
Nothing would be better for the diving industry than having a serious
competitor to PADI. It would force everyone to be alert and think quality
and custommer satisfaction from the workday starts til long after it ends.
I would say that personally I belive it would be more appropriate to have
custommer satisfaction as a primary mission instead of the dive shop's
health. After all, the dive shop is ther because of the custommer and not
vica versa.....
S_chewba
Jammer Six
<outc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
€> half their customers have only a 2 digit IQ.
€
€That is a statement I would certainly not support.
There's that lack of knowledge, again.
Half the world has a 2 digit IQ.
Discuss.
--
"C'mon, you sons of bitches, you want to live forever?"
-Sergeant Major Dan Daly
Bob Crownfield
>
> "Bob Crownfield" <Crown...@Home.com> skrev i melding
> news:3C3FBD...@Home.com...
> > > I was just stating that a company that doesn't supply what the
> custommers
> > > are asking for won't gain market shares.
> > > The wannabe divers ask for experiences, and they want to do it in a
> safe,
> > > controlled and comfortable way.
> > > PADI market shares are still rising and what better indication that they
> > > provide what the custommers ask for can you get ?
> >
> > half their customers have only a 2 digit IQ.
>
> That is a statement I would certainly not support.
your problem is lack of understanding.
half of an average group will have only two digits.
> But I must say that when
> a person manages to come up with a statement like you just did, it strongly
> suggests that the number of digits on the IQ side that lead to the statement
> are rather limmited.
to someone who does not understand.
>
> S_chewba
S_chewba
"Jammer Six" <jam...@invalid.oz.net> skrev i melding
news:a1qmeg$65s$0...@216.39.146.232...> ?> half their customers have only a 2 digit IQ.
> ?
> ?That is a statement I would certainly not support.
>
> There's that lack of knowledge, again.
> Half the world has a 2 digit IQ.
I was oposing to the condescending way it was presented.
It was laid in a way implicating that the choice was based on poor
intellectual abillities.
I don't belive divers should look don't down on fellow divers in that
manner.
An attitude like that only reflects bad back on divers in general. A diver
is a diver no matter if he has 5 logged dives and a OW certification or Full
cave credentials and 1000+ logged dives.
It strikes me as rather interesting that many experienced divers in here
once were OW-students too and still they have a hostile attitude towards new
divers entering at the same level that they once did.
New divers have to start somewhere, and why not with the organization that
most new divers worldwide seeks out ?
S_chewba
S_chewba
"Bob Crownfield" <Crown...@Home.com> skrev i melding
> your problem is lack of understanding.
> half of an average group will have only two digits.
Which was not the _message_ in the post I commented upon.
S_chewba
mike gray
>
> S_chewba wrote:
> >
> > "Bob Crownfield" <Crown...@Home.com> skrev i melding
> > news:3C3FBD...@Home.com...
> > > > I was just stating that a company that doesn't supply what the
> > custommers
> > > > are asking for won't gain market shares.
> > > > The wannabe divers ask for experiences, and they want to do it in a
> > safe,
> > > > controlled and comfortable way.
> > > > PADI market shares are still rising and what better indication that they
> > > > provide what the custommers ask for can you get ?
> > >
> > > half their customers have only a 2 digit IQ.
> >
> > That is a statement I would certainly not support.
>
> your problem is lack of understanding.
> half of an average group will have only two digits.
Mean, median, or mode?
Not that a 100 IQ is any of the above.
S_chewba
"mike gray" <omy...@worldnet.att.net> skrev i melding
news:3C40F471...@worldnet.att.net...
> Mean, median, or mode?
>
> Not that a 100 IQ is any of the above.
Read the post that were posted half an hour before you replied an earlier
post.
S_chewba
Jammer Six
<outc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
€Which was not the _message_ in the post I commented upon.
Well, why don't you try saying what you mean?
Use words.
The right words, and nothing else.
--
"We're going to rush the hijackers."
-Jeremy Glick, aboard United Airlines flight 93, September 11, 2001
Jammer Six
<outc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
€I was oposing to the condescending way it was presented.
As I pointed out in another post, that isn't what you said.
We're not interested in what you're "opposing", the only thing we can
go on is what you *write*.
Now.
If you don't want to talk about chevy pickups, don't include those
words anywhere in your posts.
€It was laid in a way implicating that the choice was based on poor
€intellectual abillities.
And now we've determined what, that it was based on poor communication
skills, instead?
Oh, yes, I see your point, that's so much better.
€I don't belive divers should look don't down on fellow divers in that
€manner.
No one here cares.
€An attitude like that only reflects bad back on divers in general. A diver
€is a diver no matter if he has 5 logged dives and a OW certification or Full
€cave credentials and 1000+ logged dives.
Nope. Not even close. Rules one and two are used for this question.
€It strikes me as rather interesting that many experienced divers in here
€once were OW-students too and still they have a hostile attitude towards new
€divers entering at the same level that they once did.
That's an odd thing to be interested in. You're a wierd dude. Or are
you saying something other than what you mean (again) ?
€New divers have to start somewhere, and why not with the organization that
€most new divers worldwide seeks out ?
Your lack of knowledge and experience is showing again.
Now, if you really want to an answer, go look up "Learning 101".
S_chewba
>
> Well, why don't you try saying what you mean?
>
> Use words.
>
> The right words, and nothing else.
I was doing so, but that wasn't the case in the posting I commented upon.
S_chewba
S_chewba
>
> As I pointed out in another post, that isn't what you said.
>
> We're not interested in what you're "opposing", the only thing we can
> go on is what you *write*.
>
> Now.
The initial post weren't direct and straight to the point, so why should I
heighten the level of precision ?
Just typing back "in the same spirit" as that post.
> If you don't want to talk about chevy pickups, don't include those
> words anywhere in your posts.
Suitable for driving all the equipment to the divesite aren't they ? :)
> And now we've determined what, that it was based on poor communication
> skills, instead?
At least we've determined that you could have a great future as an teacher
:)
In addition to what we allready know.
That you're always in search for a good way to overinterperate or
misunderstand a single or serie of posting.
> Oh, yes, I see your point, that's so much better.
>
> ?I don't belive divers should look don't down on fellow divers in that
> ?manner.
>
> No one here cares.
"Because we allready know how to dive and we're so cooooool" :) ?
You go Boy!
> ?An attitude like that only reflects bad back on divers in general. A
diver
> ?is a diver no matter if he has 5 logged dives and a OW certification or
Full
> ?cave credentials and 1000+ logged dives.
>
> Nope. Not even close. Rules one and two are used for this question.
Are you one of them who took a diving course with a mantra instead of an
instructor ?
> ?It strikes me as rather interesting that many experienced divers in here
> ?once were OW-students too and still they have a hostile attitude towards
new
> ?divers entering at the same level that they once did.
>
> That's an odd thing to be interested in. You're a wierd dude. Or are
> you saying something other than what you mean (again) ?
I could come up with a better word for it when I wrote it. If I explain
thourougly for you, you think you could come up with a good Norwegian word
for it ? :)
Use "odd" instead, or anything like that which suits you the best.
> Your lack of knowledge and experience is showing again.
Over and over again you return to the "lack of knowledge and experience"
phrase, but each time you fail to follow up with anything enlightening from
a diver with knowledge and experience (like your self typically......).
Is that because it's easier to pick other peoples postings appart than to
actually figure out something to say on your own ?
> Now, if you really want to an answer, go look up "Learning 101".
I'm affraid I would misunderstand that :(
Could you enlighten me and explain it in a way I can grasp ?
:))
S_chewba
Jammer Six
<outc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
€I was doing so, but that wasn't the case in the posting I commented upon.
Then you were using too many words.
Jammer Six
<outc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
€Is that because it's easier to pick other peoples postings appart than to
€actually figure out something to say on your own ?
Nope.
It's because I don't care if you live or die.
S_chewba
>
> ?Is that because it's easier to pick other peoples postings appart than to
> ?actually figure out something to say on your own ?
>
> Nope.
>
> It's because I don't care if you live or die.
10 points on relevancy :)
I guess you could tell me how I should be doing it right if you had cared
for me couldn't you ?
Have you seen the light ?
I'm still stumbeling in the dark......... :(
:))
S_chewba
Bob Crownfield
>
> "Jammer Six" <jam...@invalid.oz.net> skrev i melding
> news:a1qmeg$65s$0...@216.39.146.232...
> > In article <a1piqv$gm7$2...@lise.netcom.no>, S_chewba
> > <outc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > ?> half their customers have only a 2 digit IQ.
> > ?
> > ?That is a statement I would certainly not support.
> >
> > There's that lack of knowledge, again.
> > Half the world has a 2 digit IQ.
>
> I was oposing to the condescending way it was presented.
it was an obvious and true statement.
that you chose to interpret it emotionally, rather than logically,
was your choice.
>
> S_chewba
Bob Crownfield
but publicly rambleing out loud.
if you are in the dark, thats ok,
but shouting and lecturing are not.
> :))
> S_chewba
S_chewba
"Bob Crownfield" <Crown...@Home.com> skrev i melding
> if you are in the dark, thats ok,
> but shouting and lecturing are not.
>
Glad you caught the consept of irony :)
Haven't seen any shouting in the thread so far.
Not lecturing either, except for some English teacher wannabe attempts......
But I've seen oposing views and not to mention I've seen relevant, sound
contributing views on how to get off topic to pursue intentionally
misunderstood phrases.
Oposing veiews and sharing opinion/experiences are what this forum is for so
some of it have been "interesting".
S_chewba
Jammer Six
<outc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
€Not lecturing either, except for some English teacher wannabe attempts......
When you start listening to yourself, not only will your English (and
punctuation) inprove, but you'll see (or hear) exactly what we're
talking about.
The irony in this quote is particularly satisfying. It's almost as good
as the teenager who finished his lecture on the evils of capitalism
with a request to borrow money.
You haven't finished your research yet, and it shows.
S_chewba
> ?Not lecturing either, except for some English teacher wannabe
attempts......
>
> When you start listening to yourself, not only will your English (and
> punctuation) inprove, but you'll see (or hear) exactly what we're
> talking about.
>
> The irony in this quote is particularly satisfying. It's almost as good
> as the teenager who finished his lecture on the evils of capitalism
> with a request to borrow money.
>
> You haven't finished your research yet, and it shows.
Just a litle repost:
"Over and over again you return to the "lack of knowledge and experience"
phrase, but each time you fail to follow up with anything enlightening from
a diver with knowledge and experience (like your self typically......).
Is that because it's easier to pick other peoples postings appart than to
actually figure out something to say on your own ?"
A post from you from the same thread:
?Especially if it's the same across the board?
Oh, he's going to be a *great* DM
You keep critisising, and still fails to provide anything relevant to the
topic in the thread.
Can that be interperated in any other way than that you simply can't come up
with any views/opinions of your own ?
It sure suggest so strongly.
What a stand up constructive guy you are!
Guess you're one of them who fills up the "can't walk and chew chewinggum at
the same time category".
Did a PADI instructor reject to give you the Advanced Open Water
certification for the reason that you couldn't meet the performance
requirements ?
By the way. Did you go to school in Russia or where did you get the
reference to the guy who recived a lecture on the evils of captitalism ? You
told in such a colorfull and realistic way that one could easily be fooled
into perciving it as a selfexperienced memory from your childhood :)
S_chewba
Jack Farmer
> "Jason O'Rourke" <j...@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU> skrev i melding
> news:a1nqhn$2fg6$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
> > A mantra in the tech realm is: fast, cheap, good. Pick two.
> >
> > Mcdonald's is fast and cheap, and has its role in fattening us up. It
> > certainly is not fine dining.
> >
> > You can tell us if you think that sort of role has a place in dive
> instruction.
>
A mouse trap supplies what the mouse wants cheese.
>
> I was just stating that a company that doesn't supply what the custommers
> are asking for won't gain market shares.
> The wannabe divers ask for experiences, and they want to do it in a safe,
> controlled and comfortable way.
> PADI market shares are still rising and what better indication that they
> provide what the custommers ask for can you get ?
>
> If diving was unsafe the total market would decrease, which would probably
> not be in PADI's interest, right ?
> Everyone knows this, even PADI, so in order to stay in business and gain
> market shares they have to provide a product that makes the experience safe.
> No matter if it's the bottomline that is the main goal or any other goal
> that are tried to be achived by the organizations, the only way to akomplish
> the goal would be to maintain a reputation and statistics that shows how
> safe diving can be.
>
Give the mouse his cheese. Make him ignore OR forget what the mouse trap DOES.
>
> So what role do I think it has in dive instructions ?
> It is the single most important thing ! To provide what the wannabe
> certified are asking for; new experiences in a a controlled and safe way.
> Best way to measure what organisation that provide all these three: Market
> shares.
>
> S_chewba
Safe Diving.
L8R
--
You Don't HAVE to be NUTS to be a SysAdmin./WebMaster. BUT it Helps!
http://www.thecrusaderbbs.com
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PS PE Y PGP- t-- 5 X- R- tv+ b++ DI++++ D G- e h--- r+++ z+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Jack Farmer
as hell almost every day of the week in the dive shop part.
2 or 3 yrs ago they switched to PADI and over night it almost turned into a ghost
town in THAT Dive Shop.
Another one local to me although it's a PADI 5 Star is on the QT having it's
instructors GUE trained.
I've personally seen it happen with other stores and dive operations in other
places.
Safe Diving.
L8R
'
Jason O'Rourke wrote:
> S_chewba <outc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >PADI market shares are still rising and what better indication that they
> >provide what the custommers ask for can you get ?
>
> Are you sure their share is actually increasing? I believe SSI has taken
> a rather substantial chunk of business away from them in recent years,
> and this is especially evident in the number of SF Bay Area shops shifting
> to that agency. A recent tally put PADI at about 50%, with NAUI and SSI
> splitting most of the remainder.
>
> I won't comment much of whether or not customers are making informed decisions.
> --
> Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com
--
Einar Hagen
"Jack Farmer" <ja...@mail.thecrusaderbbs.com> wrote in message
news:3C413F8F...@mail.thecrusaderbbs.com...
> Out here a local store chain USED to be NAUI was always packed with divers
crowded
> as hell almost every day of the week in the dive shop part.
>
> 2 or 3 yrs ago they switched to PADI and over night it almost turned into
a ghost
> town in THAT Dive Shop.
>
So what youre saying is that NAUI is better than PADI.....?
Einar