Air Travel OK <24 Hours after a Shallow Dive?
John Polstra
to ask about bending the rule which states that a person should avoid
air travel for 24 hours after diving.
I am a student diver halfway through the NAUI Open Water I course. My
original class got canceled, so I am taking the course several weeks
later than I had planned. I have a non-refundable plane ticket to
Bonaire, and the plane leaves the very next morning after the class's
last day of diving for certification. Unless I cancel the
certification dive or miss my plane, there will be an interval of only
15-16 hours between the dive and the flight. I just found out yesterday
that NAUI says a diver should wait 24 hours before flying.
Since the certification dives will not be very deep (<30 feet, I am
told), would there really be significant risk if I flew 15-16 hours
after the last dive?
I tried to get some advice from my instructor, but he insists on
adhering rigidly to the NAUI party line. As far as he is concerned, a
wait of 23 hours and 59 minutes would be unacceptable. I need a more
thoughtful answer than that. In the real world, issues just aren't
that black and white. I am not a reckless person, and I will not fly
unless I am convinced it would be reasonably safe. I need some help in
making that evaluation.
If I have to, I'll either change my plane ticket (costing zillions of
$$$), or try to get a referral so that I can do my certification dives
in Bonaire.
I'd appreciate email copies of any replies -- I'm running out of time to
change my plane ticket.
--
John Polstra j...@polstra.com
John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Phone (206) 932-6482
Seattle, Washington USA Fax (206) 935-1262
"Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth
H. Davis Nadig
: Through a combination of unfortunate circumstances, I find it necessary
: to ask about bending the rule which states that a person should avoid
: air travel for 24 hours after diving.
I am NOT a doctor, NOT an instructor. I am a diver. I personally dive
with a computer, and look at my time to fly times. If I start clean, hop in
to play at the airplane in cozumel (30 feet) for a tank, then hop out
I am clear in about 4 hours.
I am **generally** a very conservative diver. I stay in good shape **never**
drink during a dive vacation, and stay very hydrated. Because of this, I
personally use a 12 hour plane limite, not a 24 hour plane limit. I have
never had any problems. Of course, I have heard stories of getting bent
two days after your last dive. this is just my experience..
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Nadig, David, David of Gower, Grot, gr...@trantor.cc.umb.edu
##! My opinions are only tentatively my own, much less anyone elses !##
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Dwork
|>
|> Since the certification dives will not be very deep (<30 feet, I am
|> told), would there really be significant risk if I flew 15-16 hours
|> after the last dive?
|>
Some suggestions:
One of the NAUI cert dives is a free dive (no scuba). Talk the instructor
into doing that last.
Call DAN and get their advice. There has been a lot of back and forth on
24hrs vs 12hrs to fly after dive.
Join DAN and get the insurance. Then they will pay for your recompression.
:-) :-) :-).
Really, though, DAN's insurance is a good deal. Your medical insurance may
not cover recompression. Unless you have a spare $5-10K, $50/yr for DAN
insurance is the way to go. Plus you get to support dive medicine and get a
free subscription to Rodale's Scuba Diving mag.
Remember, people get bent diving within the tables. Accidents happen.
Equipment fails. You don't want to have to argue about who will pay at the
door of the chamber.
We joined before our certification dives.
Jeff
NAUI OWI, Rescue
--
Jeff Dwork | 408-987-2362 | jeff....@amd.com
Advanced Micro Devices, M/S 45 |---------------------------------------
PO Box 3453 | The above opionions are mine,
Sunnyvale, Ca 94088-3453 | not AMD's.
AaronFLA
Cancel? give me a break.
There is such a rule concerning multiple dives at deep dephths..
put it this way, i am 125lbs, 22 yr old male.
I dive tenaco towers (100ft) for 2 days (2 tanks a day) and then fly back to
Orlando....(only a 1 hr flight)....but...--->>>
DONT WORRY
about what u are talking about......
NOTHING CAN GO WRONG
unless the dives turn out to be 100 ft deep and your plane has stop off's in
Austrailia and Tokyo.
dont worry buddy.
AaronFLA
Dillon Pyron
In article <2p1hrk$4...@seattle.polstra.com>, John Polstra (j...@polstra.com) writes:
>Through a combination of unfortunate circumstances, I find it necessary
>to ask about bending the rule which states that a person should avoid
>air travel for 24 hours after diving.
>
>I am a student diver halfway through the NAUI Open Water I course. My
>original class got canceled, so I am taking the course several weeks
>later than I had planned. I have a non-refundable plane ticket to
>Bonaire, and the plane leaves the very next morning after the class's
>last day of diving for certification. Unless I cancel the
>certification dive or miss my plane, there will be an interval of only
>15-16 hours between the dive and the flight. I just found out yesterday
>that NAUI says a diver should wait 24 hours before flying.
>
>Since the certification dives will not be very deep (<30 feet, I am
>told), would there really be significant risk if I flew 15-16 hours
>after the last dive?
Call DAN. 919 684 2948. They are the ones who issued the
recommendations (not edicts). The 24 hours is intended to cover
85% of all dives and divers. Your profile may allow for a shorter
wait. So call them. And, as long as you are on the phone with
them, join.
--
Dillon Pyron
py...@divers.win.net
PADI AI-54909 USPSA A-26031
John Polstra
startling number of informative, thoughtful, helpful replies. I've
posted my share of questions on the net over the years, but I've sure
never gotten this kind of response before. One person even called me
on the phone to talk about it. If this is what the diving culture is
like, I'm gonna love this sport. Heartfelt thanks to all of you. You
can stop now!
In this posting I will summarize the replies as best I can, and also let
you know what I decided to do. I am not going to name any names.
In article <2p1hrk$4...@seattle.polstra.com>, I wrote:
> I am a student diver halfway through the NAUI Open Water I course. My
> original class got canceled, so I am taking the course several weeks
> later than I had planned. I have a non-refundable plane ticket to
> Bonaire, and the plane leaves the very next morning after the class's
> last day of diving for certification. Unless I cancel the
> certification dive or miss my plane, there will be an interval of only
> 15-16 hours between the dive and the flight. I just found out yesterday
> that NAUI says a diver should wait 24 hours before flying.
>
> Since the certification dives will not be very deep (<30 feet, I am
> told), would there really be significant risk if I flew 15-16 hours
> after the last dive?
First of all, just to clear it up, I was wrong about the depth. The
first dive is less than 30 feet, but at some point during the weekend
they will take us down to 50-60 feet. Dive times are kept as short as
possible, though, because the water here is sooooo coooooold.
Now, to summarize the replies:
1. Almost without exception, everybody was careful to qualify their
remarks by noting that decompression sickness is not well understood.
Susceptibility to DCS varies all over the scale, not only among
different individuals, but also for any given person under different
circumstances. There are people who get bent even after waiting >24
hours to fly, and there are people who fly much "too soon" with
impunity. One person put it very nicely, I thought: The 24 hour
guideline is voodoo, but it's the best voodoo we have.
I appreciated this point. It caused me to think about the fact that I
have, at this point, literally zero experience with how my body reacts
to diving. That weighs heavily toward following the guidelines.
2. Given the above qualification, most (but not by any means all) of
the responders said they thought I'd be reasonably safe to fly 15-16
hours after the last checkout dive.
3. Several people pointed out that the generally accepted guideline used
to be 12 hours, or that PADI recommends 12 hours. (This is not
absolute, but it applies to these particular diving conditions.)
4. Several people said "call DAN and ask them." This was great advice,
because I hadn't even heard of DAN until then. Now I've found out about
them and it seems like a very worthy organization. I'm going to join
for sure. On person touted DAN's insurance, which also sounds like a
very good thing to get. If I understand correctly, it's $25/year for
the membership plus another $25/year for the insurance. The insurance
covers any needed diving-related medical care anywhere in the world,
including recompression therapy. I have been told that many standard
health plans exclude recompression therapy from their coverage.
5. One person actually got some information from DAN and summarized it
for me. There are lots of qualifications, but here's the meat of it:
To minimize the risk of contracting DCS by flying after having
dived, A DIVER SHOULD AVOID FLYING FOR AT LEAST 24 HOURS AFTER ANY
DIVE.
The following guidelines, which apply to commercial aircraft with
cabin altitude s equivalent to 8000feet (2400 meters), provide
divers with the option of reducing the waiting time to 12 hours
after certain diving schedules. However, divers are still advised
to wait at least 24 hours, if possible.
Scuba Diving Schedule Time before Flying
(cabin pressure 8000 feet)
Less than 2 hours No-D diving 12 hours (within past 48
hours)
Multi-day - unlimited diving 24 hours
Decompression stop diving 24 - 48 hours
(if possible 48 hours)
6. Several people said that, after similar dive schedules, their dive
computers had given them the go-ahead to fly well before 15 hours had
passed. One or two people recommended that I borrow a computer and wear
it for all the dives, then see what it said. The only trouble with that
is, it would be too late to change my plans at that point. I'd have to
call off the whole trip, probably.
7. One person stressed that what I called the 24-hour "rule" is not a
rule at all -- it's a guideline. She sent me a very interesting magazine
article she had written on the subject. Apparently there was a lot of
controversy about this a few years ago. The 24 hours was initially
suggested by the Undersea and Hyperbaric Medical Society (UHMS) as a
guideline, but was quickly adopted as a rule by many people / organizations.
It was never intended as a "rule" and caused a lot of inconvenience for
people on vacations when resort operators started refusing to let them
dive the day before their departure, even though these divers knew from
years of experience that they would suffer no ill effects from that. As
a result, the guidelines were reworded and a statement was published by
DAN. The statement stressed guidelines rather than rules. See #5 above
for the meat of the guidelines.
That last paragraph doesn't really do justice to the article she sent me.
Sorry!
8. Another person said the NAUI rule is 12 hours, not 24 hours. The
only number I could find in my NAUI book was 24 hours. But it's true
that they use the word "recommends" rather than "requires".
9. A *significant* number of people advised me, "Don't do it." I would
say that at least one fourth to one third of the responders said that,
and they had some good reasons (see #1 above). I appreciated these
responses because they were thoughtful and non-dogmatic.
I am not devoting nearly enough space to those responses, so I just want
to stress that those advising against flying so soon formed a
significant minority. Their advice cannot be dismissed, in my opinion.
10. Many of those who didn't advise, "Don't do it," still recommended
that I find another alternative if at all possible. In other words,
it's probably OK to fly that soon, but do it only as a last resort.
The option that most of these people recommended was to get a referral
and do the checkout dives in Bonaire. (The water's warmer there
anyway.)
11. I got some pointers on how to make the flying safer. Mainly, drink
lots and lots and lots of fluids before, during, and after the diving.
Also, one person let me know that diving in cold water increases the
susceptibility to DCS.
12. Many people pointed out that I shouldn't blame my instructor for
"adhering rigidly to the NAUI party line," as I put it. The instructor
*has* to say that. He has no choice.
I know this is true, and I'm sorry if I sounded too critical of my
instructor. I was feeling pretty frustrated when I wrote my original
post.
=================
OK, I'm sure I've forgotten some things, but this has to end somewhere.
So, here's what I decided to do.
As it turns out, my travel agent put in an absolutely heroic effort, and
managed to get me a later flight. It's only going to cost $50 extra.
In the context of the trip as a whole, that's not much. I decided that
the extra peace of mind would be worth the additional cost. So I'm flying
about 22 hours (worst case) after the last dive. I feel comfortable
with that.
I would have felt safe enough flying on my original schedule. But I
also would have been imagining all sorts of symptoms in my body, and
wondering whether I should go see a doctor. (I learned this about
myself during my early days of mushroom collecting.) It's worth 50
bucks to avoid that.
Blatant plug for my wonderful travel agent: Global Express Travel,
Seattle, (206) 682-3080. Ask for April or for Pam Farrow.
Finally ... Everybody said, have a great trip, you'll love Bonaire.
Thanks, that's what I'm going to do!
Sten E. Vesterli
"Flying after diving procedures:
For a single no-decompression dive with less than 1 hr of
bottom time, wait a minimum of 4 hrs; for a single no-decompression
dive with more than 1 hr of bottom time or after any repetitive
dive, wait a minimum of 12 hrs; for any dive requiring emergency
decompression, wait a minimum of 24 hrs. When possible, however,
a 24-hr wait is generally recommended in any case."
Emergency decompession in PADI terminology is a safety stop at
5 meters for 8 or 15 minutes, only used when you have accidentially
exceeded the no-decompression limits.
I hope this is useful.
Happy diving
Sten Vesterli
vst...@login.dknet.dk
Pete Plocher
your depth at less than fifty feet - 60 feet is the RSTC max for entry
level and most agencies stay shallower and (2) make sure you're a "C" or
better ("B" or "A") on the charts. The other reason to be careful is that
you are at a higher risk if the airplane accidentally decompresses and
airplanes are not pressurized to sea level - usually to bout
8000 feet.
I make sure I'm a "C" before flying. Most agencies follow the twelve to
twenty four hour rule (and we Instructors teach it) because of liability.
The FAA requires pilots to stay on the ground for 48 hours before flying.
Pete Plocher
YMCA/PADI Instructor
Carl G Heinzl
>|>
>|> Since the certification dives will not be very deep (<30 feet, I am
>|> told), would there really be significant risk if I flew 15-16 hours
>|> after the last dive?
>|>
>Some suggestions:
>One of the NAUI cert dives is a free dive (no scuba). Talk the instructor
>into doing that last.
This isn't going to happen (at least it wouldn't happen in one of the
classes I'm assisting with) and I would suggest that this is a bad idea
anyway.
That first "no scuba" dive introduces students that have never been in cold
water with full wetsuit (including all the fumbling that goes along with
gloves/mitts), BCs, masks, fins, snorkels, and weight belts (everything
sans tanks and regs) to the logistics of getting around on the surface,
getting their face wet with some cold water and even a few minor skills
(surface dives, dropping their weight belt in 8-10 feet of water and
recovering it, etc). Even in warm water (where presumably only 1/8"
wetsuit or no wetsuits at all are needed) there is still the issue of
being in salt water (vs in a pool with the gear on), etc. Obviously
there aren't nearly as many issues but I think it would still be a good
idea just to ascertain how comfortable the students are in "open water".
I do not thin that this is not a skill that should (or would)
be taught after the students complete their full OWI certification dives. We
generally make this "dive" somewhere between 20-45 minutes (depends on the
group, instructor, and many other varying factors). After this dive we
immediately get the tank and regulator and head out for the first real OW
scuba experience.
>Call DAN and get their advice. There has been a lot of back and forth on
>24hrs vs 12hrs to fly after dive.
Our OWI cerfication dives are rarely deeper than 40' or so and since we're
diving with steel 72s, the duration isn't that long either (almost never
over 30 minutes).
While I will not go as far as recommending that flying 15 or 16 hours after
dives such as these are OK I will tell you that my computer (a Suunto
Solution) would have a no fly time of less than your allocated time
(15 hours) after the last of these training dives (i.e. 1 non-scuba OWI
training dive followed by 2 scuba OWI training dives one day and 2 scuba
OWI training dives the next day). If you're interested you should try
running a simple dive simulator for some series of dives like this and
see exactly what you come up with.
Of course, talking to DAN is a good idea.
-Carl-
bob...@kbbs.com
IJ>Through a combination of unfortunate circumstances, I find it necessary
IJ>to ask about bending the rule which states that a person should avoid
IJ>air travel for 24 hours after diving.
When it comes to taking risks with flying and diving, ONLY YOU can
decide what to do. NO ONE in their right mind would say, "Yeah, go
ahead kid, break the rules...Once ain't gonna hurt!"
I will offer one piece of advice...It only takes getting bent once, and
what was your certification dive could be your LAST.
I can tell you stories of people getting bent for flying with more than
a 24 hour interval, and I can also tell you stories of people who flew
within a few hours, but they were ok. Everyone's physiology is
different.
I'm not flaming on YOU, but why would you ask someone else to take YOUR
life into their hands by recommending something that YOU as a new diver
already know the answer to? DON'T DO IT!
* KBBS Bulletin Board *
(818) 886-0872
A local numbers available for all of Los Angeles!
BEVERLY HILLS VAN NUYS ANAHEIM WOODLAND HILLS VENTURA POMONA
Joy L. Silva
What if the plane looses cabin pressure. Think about it...
John Polstra
> IJ>Through a combination of unfortunate circumstances, I find it necessary
> IJ>to ask about bending the rule which states that a person should avoid
> IJ>air travel for 24 hours after diving.
>
> When it comes to taking risks with flying and diving, ONLY YOU can
> decide what to do. NO ONE in their right mind would say, "Yeah, go
> ahead kid, break the rules...Once ain't gonna hurt!"
>
>
> I'm not flaming on YOU, but why would you ask someone else to take YOUR
> life into their hands by recommending something that YOU as a new diver
> already know the answer to?
If you will reread my original posting, I think you will find that I
was specifically NOT asking for anybody else to make a decision for me,
or even a recommendation. I tried to make it clear that I wanted
*information* that would help ME to make an informed decision. I tried
very hard to make that clear. I think I did a decent job of getting
it across to most people, because out of maybe 20 replies that I've
gotten, yours is the first to suggest that I was trying to avoid taking
on personal responsibility for myself.
Here is some of the *information* I was given:
* The generally accepted guideline used to be 12 hours, not 24.
* DAN says 12 hours should normally be OK under the circumstances
I described (dives not too deep, and <2 hours bottom time in the
last 48 hours).
* Any dive computer would say it was OK to fly.
One of the first general rules I learned in the NAUI course was "Stop,
think, act." Thinking includes looking at a general rule or guideline
and asking, "Does that make sense in this particular situation?"
Sometimes the answer is no.
If I went down to 15 feet for 1 minute, the 24-hour guideline would say
I shouldn't fly. That is obviously absurd. So where do you draw the
line? The answer is, you get as much information as you can, then you
make a judgement for yourself, then you live with the consequences.
That's exactly what I did and will continue to do.
There seems to be a non-negligible fraction of the diving community (my
instructor seems to be one of them) who feels that merely questioning
the rules and guidelines indicates a bad attitude about safety. That
is bullshit. I will never accept it. I graduated from kindergarden a
loooong time ago. Information is good -- period. More information is
better -- period.
Sorry to come back so strong on this. I accept your statement that you
weren't flaming me. You just happened to hit my #1 personal hot button.
There. I feel better now :-).
Eric M. Webb
>From: j...@classy.EBay.Sun.COM (Joy L. Silva)
>Subject: Re: Air Travel OK <24 Hours after a Shallow Di
>Date: 26 Apr 1994 18:44:29 GMT
>I've been following this discussion and I don't think anyone has mentioned:
>What if the plane looses cabin pressure. Think about it...
And not all flying is the same. Losing cabin pressule in a DC-10 cruising at
35,000 feet is different than in a small plane at 8,000 - 10,000 feet.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Webb / Martin Marietta
EPA National Computer Center
Research Commons, 79 Alexander Drive, Bldg 4501
Research Triangle Park, N.C., 27711
Phone: 919-541-7896 Fax: 919-541-0028
Joseph Crunk
# IJ>Through a combination of unfortunate circumstances, I find it necessary
# IJ>to ask about bending the rule which states that a person should avoid
# IJ>air travel for 24 hours after diving.
# When it comes to taking risks with flying and diving, ONLY YOU can
# decide what to do. NO ONE in their right mind would say, "Yeah, go
There are a few areas in scuba diving where controversy exists (duh! :).
Diving while pregnant is one area. Lots of good data on both sides of the
issue. Flying after diving is another area. Again, data on both sides
seems to challenge each other.
Bottom line: we just don't know. DAN, those Diver Alert Network folks,
took a conservative stance and declared 24 hrs as the waiting period
for flying after diving. This 24 hr waiting period is only 2 or 3 years
old. What did we do before DAN's wisdom? The US Navy has said for years
(and years) that a diver never need wait more than 6 hrs after diving to fly.
(This may have changed with the new USN tables. I don't know.)
Since most commercial aircraft are pressurized to ~8000ft, the real
fear I would have is with a sudden loss of cabin pressure, like that
experienced with a blown door seal or someone detonating a bomb in the
plane's bathroom. Although you'd become like a human soda pop, procedure is
for the aircraft to immediately descend to 10,000 altitude for the duration
of the flight.
Personally, (as if anyone cared :) I think it's more important to take off
every third day from diving while on that multi-day dive vacation.
-Joseph Crunk "We don't have a gun problem. We don't have an assault
jos...@smos.com weapon problem. We have a crime problem, and no amount
of gun control is going to solve that crime problem."
robert blanch
ours accumulated bottom time: Wait 24 hours. 2) For more than 2 days of diving, or after any dive requiring emergency decompression: Wait 24 hours. This recommendation was taken from the PADI's Altitude Diving course, and is to be applied when flying to altitudes of 1000-8000 feet, I don't know if the rule still applies when flying to altitudes of less thant 1000 feet. --- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 [NR] * Origin: The Neutral Zone (1:311/22)