Why is IOA's attendance so low?
ansley
this....
I started this thread mainly because I don't understand why IOA's
attendance is still so low? I believe it is about 4.6 million per
year, and has only been over 5 million a few years. Why is this? Why
not 8 million visitors a year like they should have?
Amongst most of my friends, theme park fans, coaster enthusiasts,
etc.... many of us consider IOA the single best theme park in the
world, probably half the people I know feel this way and if it's not
number one than it is solid number 2 or 3.
IMHO, the problem is marketing. It has been over 10 years since IoA
opened I still believe that most of Universal's business is spillover
from Disney, judging from some interesting conversations I've had wth
co-workers or other regular people. Most think of Universal as
simply.... Universal Studios. They don't realize there are two theme
parks, or a resort with hotels, it is just a one day add on to Disney
and that is how they plan their vacation. When they arrive and find
another theme park, they don't have the time to add another day OR
they do a quick review in a brochure and think of IoA of more of a
thrill theme park and compare it to typical theme park like SF, Cedar
Point, or Kings Island and choose once again to spend their one day at
Universal Studios. I think Universal really needs to advertise the TWO
major theme parks at their resort and really push things like Suess
Landing, Toon Lagoon, and now the WW of Harry Potter to families. I
also think the average Disney guest now doesn't much leave WDW (the
free transportation to/from Disney resorts has pushed this, and
international visitors are on group tours and may only go to Disney),
and Sea World, multiple parks now too, and Universal really have to
fight for tourists. I think they probably get their fair share of
locals, and of theme park fans who aren't brainwashed by Disney, but
they are not attracting the mainstream Disney guests. These are just a
few of my thoughts on the subject.
What are your opinons on this?
Ted
Steelforce
QUE another rant from the Banned guy....
My guess is that people were actually staying away 'til the Harry
Potter Shopping Mall opened..
Pathetic BaSSclown
CanobieFan
> etc.... many of us consider IOA the single best theme park in the
> world, probably half the people I know feel this way and if it's not
> number one than it is solid number 2 or 3.
Ahahahahaha, this is a joke right?... I live right across the street
from Uni/IOA and I never go!
They think they're far better than they really are and they thought
they could just build what once was a "cutting edge" park and never
have to add anything to it.. Well how'd that work out? Hmm, people
went once and liked it.. they came back the next time they were
around. liked it.. but didn't find anything new.. came back a third
time.. and found the same thing they found the last 2 times.... Hmm,
it got old? Played out? Was it really all that cutting edge? Outside
of Spiderman was was really new?
S&S towers (not even GOOD S&S towers).. had been around for years and
years... While Hulk has a launch,.. its not like most people wouldn't
have ridden a launched coaster in some way or another before. A splash
boat, a flume, a raft ride.... how average, and while they may be
themed somewhat.. Its still nothing really *new*.
I don't know... I guess I'd much rather ride my bike down the street
and ride Kraken and Manta vs walking across the street and going to
Islands
jrkstl
> They think they're far better than they really are and they thought
> they could just build what once was a "cutting edge" park and never
> have to add anything to it.. Well how'd that work out? Hmm, people
> went once and liked it.. they came back the next time they were
> around. liked it.. but didn't find anything new.. came back a third
> time.. and found the same thing they found the last 2 times.... Hmm,
> it got old? Played out? Was it really all that cutting edge? Outside
> of Spiderman was was really new?
snip
I think that you're probably right, but let me add that while I always
enjoy my time at IOA, I don't find it to be a place to spend the
entire day. Unless the place it packed, I'm pretty much done in 3-4
hours. I also feel the same way with the Studios. The other thing
that probably doesn't help is that they don't offer a single day park
hopper pass - at least that was the case the last time I was there.
Personally, when I'm in the Orlando area I typically stay on WDW
property, and leave one day open for Universal. It would be a far
more compelling option if they would add a special one day park
hopper, and they'd probably sell a ton.
Just a thought...
Jeff
Mark Rosenzweig
Jeff, Universal Orlando has been selling 1 day park hopper tickets for
as long as I can remember. I know I bought one in Dec of '03, '04,
'05, '07, and '09.
Mike Kallay
> What are your opinons on this?
I think you hit on the two big reasons, but I don't think it's
advertising. They've done a pretty good job at capturing emotion in
their national spots and outlining the whole "resort" & implicit "more
than one thing to do" ideas. But, that's taking on Disney directly,
and they clearly don't have even a remotely equal offering in terms of
quantity and overall quality.
I think the reason that IOA struggles (comparatively) is two fold:
1. Disney has done an amazing job of keeping dollars & time on
property through a wide range of parks, minor activities, dining,
distance from competitors, controlled transportation, and an all
encompassing lodging offering. Why wouldn't you stay on property is
the appropriate question.
There is so much to do that a typical family might only have one extra
day, and with Sea World, Uni, IOA, Cape Canaveral, the Beach, and
Busch, there are going to be some losers -- and it's about to get
worse w/ LL! Hell, Disney gets people "on property" at the fuckin'
airport w/ complimentary coach service to the hotel! Smart!
2. Much like Robb's good point about Starliner/LL in regards to height
limits, this reason has to do with the typical family vacationing in
Orlando. I've got to think that kids start exiting the "Disney" age
pretty quickly in the double digit age category -- just when they hit
the height limits for the bulk of IOA. Once a family has one or more
kids outside of the "Disney" age group, it becomes difficult to
continue the pilgrimage to Florida as a family. IOA has traditionally
appealed to the teen+ age group, and that is by & large not who goes
to Disney. Well, it is, up to the level of attendance that IOA has
garnered -- and pretty much in line with Busch Tampa. I would argue
that Sea World is probably the perfect "bridge" between Disney & IOA,
and their attendance numbers echo that.
I think Harry Potter is a game changer for the short term. Hopefully,
they can gain enough momentum from this "must see" upgrade to really
take things to the next level. But to CanobieFan's point, it's been a
pretty static park since it opened, and I'm sure that fact has put a
very real ceiling on attendance. Because, if we look at IOA's
audience, it's Six Flags & Cedar Fair's audience, not Disney's. The
overlap is equal to IOA's attendance minus the local Orlando
community.
/mike
jrkstl
> Jeff, Universal Orlando has been selling 1 day park hopper tickets for
> as long as I can remember. I know I bought one in Dec of '03, '04,
> '05, '07, and '09
Interesting...
When we went the last time (was it in 2007?) we attempted to buy a
single day park hopper, but the *only* option was for a 2 day park
hopper - which is what we bought, since the second day doesn't
expire. We were last there in October, during Horror Nights. Maybe 1
day park hopper wasn't available during that time of year??
David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply
wrote:
The last time I was there -- a few years ago now -- they were actually
primarily promoting the one day hopper option over the one park option. The
one-day hopper was in big bold letters, while the one park option was in
tiny letters at the bottom of the sign.
The implication they were trying to push was that THIS is the ticket to
get, the one everyone gets. But, I guess, if you really must, we also have
that crappy cheapo ticket, too....
"With the first link, a chain is forged. The first speech censured,
the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us
all irrevocably." -Capt. Jean-Luc Picard
"The Drumhead", _Star Trek: The Next Generation_
Robert
<davidhhhSTOPS...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jul 2010 15:22:28 -0700 (PDT), jrkstl <king_jeff...@hotmail.com>
I know at least one time when we went down the one-day hopper wasn't
on the board (neither was the Power Pass) but was sold in the booth.
But we always buy in advance at AAA.
whois charlieatlantic
This is perhaps a little harsh. Unless I'm mistaken - and I'm entirely
happy to be! - one area in which Universal is disadvantaged compared to
Disney is available real estate. How much space does Islands of
Adventure actually have with which to play? Compared to WDW, the
enclosure seems tiny, almost as if Universal built the park within
narrow boundaries and only then realised that expansion would be
difficult to achieve.
Until I read this post, it had surprised me that Universal chose to
install 'Hollywood: Rip, Ride, Rockit' at Universal Studios rather than
in some other guise at IOA. But I suppose, given that they had to invade
the Lost Continent area in order to shoehorn in the Wizarding World of
Harry Potter, they didn't have much choice. Whilst understandable, these
constraints must make it a little difficult for the park to plan
logically. How much can they realistically do? IOA also does not have
the luxury of a boardwalk style park; a bunch of coasters here, there
and everywhere, and winding around each other works nicely at somewhere
like Cedar Point or Magic Mountain, but it would ruin the aesthetic at
Islands of Adventure pretty efficiently. Theming needs space.
Not that this ruined my visit in the slightest, but when I was there in
November I actually had the worst of both worlds; we rejected the offer
of a park-hopper ticket because we anticipated needing the whole day in
IOA, only to find it deserted and with nothing left to offer after a few
hours.
-- charlie
Steelforce
>
> - Show quoted text -
they own a lot more land to the south probably as much if not more
than IOA takes up.
Mark Rosenzweig
IOA has more things in common with DCA than most IOA lovers (or DCA
haters) would probably be willing to admit.
Both parks were built in the respective parking lots of their elder
parks. Both parks were part of a rebranding effort into multi-park
"resorts". Both parks were built with the general idea of attracting
guests looking for more adventurous attractions.
On the cover, IOA has always appeared to be a full day park and DCA a
half day park. Once the novelty of IOA's attractions wore off, I too
entered a mindset that one lap around the lagoon (on a light crowd
day) was all I needed to get my fill. My favorite attractions at IOA
(Dragon Challenge, Toon Lagoon water rides) are still among the best
in their class, but the rest of the park's attractions are one and
done for me these days.
Not to make this into an IOA/DCA discussion, but I think today DCA
offers a better variety of attractions than IOA (which will only be
cemented further with Mermaid and Carsland on the horizon). If one
visits IOA on a cool day and not in water ride mode, there are only
(pre-Harry Potter) about 10 attractions total to experience. Granted,
many of these are monster E-Tickets, but I have always felt IOA lacked
the C ticket fillers like Golden Zephyr, Monsters Inc, Fun Wheel, etc
that to me are a critical element in a "full day park" experience.
From a food perspective, IOA has gone down the tubes in quality since
the original opening. Even Mythos has seen a noticeable drop off
IMO.
ansley
When we go, we take in the entire park, and on a normal day it can
take a whole day and that's with our express passes for staying on
property.
On our last two visits we easily spent two entire days at the
Universal Parks and still didn't do everything...
IoA does have:
- The best rapids ride in the world, IMHO.
- Possibly the best inverted coaster(s) in the world, it is a really
great with a great queue. Will pass judgment on it again now that is
has been re-themed.
- Possibly the best theme park attraction in the world - Spiderman
- Maybe the best new theme park attraction in the world - Harry Potter
so now some would argue the 2 best attractions!
Some other fun rides, remember many people do more than just the
coasters. I'm a huge fan of Cat in the Hat, IMHO as good as any
Disney ride through ride. Of couse, this is all up to anyone's
individual opinion but overall IoA is still a kick ass park, even if
it is 11 years old now. Disney parks also add very few new
attractions. IoA has added new things, just nothing really big since
it opened until now.
Mark Rosenzweig
It is beyond attractions, Ted. Disney Parks may not add many
attractions from year to year, but there is always something going on
whether it is an event, new entertainment (i.e. fireworks/parade), or
other promos. Not saying coaster enthusiasts go to parks to watch
parades, but when I have visited IOA in recent years, it just feels
stagnant (same can be said for USF). There is no doubting they are
the leaders when it comes to Halloween, but the rest of the year is
just meh. Park atmosphere goes a long way for me these days. I'd
argue to say even an all ride/concrete park like Cedar Point has
better atmosphere than IOA has had in recent years.
nogodforme
> On Jul 15, 12:05 pm, ansley <ans...@usa.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 14, 2:26 pm, jrkstl <king_jeff...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 14, 12:30 pm, CanobieFan <canobie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > They think they're far better than they really are and they thought
> > > > they could just build what once was a "cutting edge" park and never
> It is beyond attractions, Ted. Disney Parks may not add many
> attractions from year to year, but there is always something going on
> whether it is an event, new entertainment (i.e. fireworks/parade), or
> other promos. Not saying coaster enthusiasts go to parks to watch
> parades, but when I have visited IOA in recent years, it just feels
> stagnant (same can be said for USF). There is no doubting they are
> the leaders when it comes to Halloween, but the rest of the year is
> just meh. Park atmosphere goes a long way for me these days. I'd
> argue to say even an all ride/concrete park like Cedar Point has
> better atmosphere than IOA has had in recent years.
This. Universal is also losing their Halloween buzz, many are
saying the event last year sucked and they're going to Howl-O-Scream
next year. The houses at HHN are crowded, people are herded like
cattle, and they're all dark. They even told Lance he couldn't shoot
pictures of the B&T show at media day, so there's no reason for him to
go back. He went there looking to get content for his web site to do
a special report, and came back empty handed. Yeah, he could go on
the tour during the day like Robb did, but who cares, you don't see
any of that detail at night.
The reason Mythos lost it's buzz, is because the main chefs used to
post on the Dis boards. When they moved on and stopped posting, the
hype factor of the restaurant wore off, and people stopped caring.
So yeah, that's two example where the "hype" of an event has worn off
and the park can't do anything to bring it back. They can advertise
all they want, but it won't change anything. Everyone who is
posting in this thread and the one over at TPR seems to be saying the
same thing, the "hype" or "buzz" is gone.
Universal laid off a bunch of workers, raised ticket prices, over
worked their staff to death, had attendance drop by 10%, and claimed
customer spending was up. That's why the workers are going through
the motions and don't care. They're being worked to death.
Agree that Disney and CP both have more energy in terms of the over
all visit. When I visit CP and do the running of the bulls,
there's excitement and a bunch of great coasters to ride.
Mark Rosenzweig
> This. Universal is also losing their Halloween buzz, many are
> saying the event last year sucked and they're going to Howl-O-Scream
> next year.
Have you lost your Halloween buzz?
Funtype
>
>
> It is beyond attractions, Ted. Disney Parks may not add many
> attractions from year to year, but there is always something going on
> whether it is an event, new entertainment (i.e. fireworks/parade), or
> other promos. Not saying coaster enthusiasts go to parks to watch
> parades, but when I have visited IOA in recent years, it just feels
> stagnant (same can be said for USF). There is no doubting they are
> the leaders when it comes to Halloween, but the rest of the year is
> just meh. Park atmosphere goes a long way for me these days. I'd
> argue to say even an all ride/concrete park like Cedar Point has
> better atmosphere than IOA has had in recent years.
Mark you are so right about the "other stuff"
On my recent visit to Uni-Hollywood, I was pleasantly surprised to find
2 live bands playing in park. One outside the curious george waterplay
zone/shrek area) the other at the entry to the french street (boots are
made for walking in french; tre-kewl)
There were multiple "action zones" i.e. the windows above the candy
store (NYstreet) had 3 NY "locals" hanging out the windows chatting with
the guests as they walked by and a little "Zoro" skit (as if it were a
rehearsal for a shoot) above the Mexican Restaurant and sword
fight/photo op in the courtyard below.
Each about 8-10 min. but great filler as you cruise through the park.
They even did a Marylin Dance number (with M & 4 others) in front of the
Blues Bros. stage between the BB shows.
--CM
FWIW New Kong is Meh
mamoosh
> FWIW New Kong is Meh
Shouldn't that be FWIWNKiM? :)
Mufassa
I agree also, IOA is also missing a Nighttime Spectacular. IOA has
great potential for one with a show base off of the islands themes.
and about expansion? they had plenty of room for expansion until they
dec ided to build hotels in those areas..
nogodforme
They used to have the fireworks show at IOA and it was one of the
best. But they cut it, did the globe thing at Universal, and ruined
it.
Used to start at 09:55pm and run until the park closed. They used to
have fireworks at IOA and Universal when the parks closed, but not any
more.
Fuck them. You see, these parks try to be like Disney bu doing half
arsed jobs.
Look at SF, they hired costume people to walk the parks. Big deal.
It's still not Disney. No hotel resorts next to any properties.
Look at IOA, Try to be like Disney by hyping an HP shopping mall. Big
deal, it's only one new ride and it sucks.
HHN sucks, no one will go. Attendance will drop for this year even
with the HP shopping mall.
David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply
<nogod...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>Look at IOA, Try to be like Disney by hyping an HP shopping mall. Big
>deal, it's only one new ride and it sucks.
How do you know? Have you ridden it?
>HHN sucks, no one will go. Attendance will drop for this year even
>with the HP shopping mall.
How do you know what it's like now? Have you gone?
Oh yeah, you can't go on their property, now, can you?
Wolf
"jrkstl" <king_j...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:f8be204a-c8b8-4f16...@w30g2000yqw.googlegroups.com...
snip
Just a thought...
Jeff
--------
Most Disney parks are 3-4 hour parks if they aren't packed. It's just that they are always packed.
--
|\-/|
<0 0>
=(o)=
-Wolf
Wolf
>
> >> Jeff, Universal Orlando has been selling 1 day park hopper tickets for
> >> as long as I can remember. I know I bought one in Dec of '03, '04,
> >> '05, '07, and '09
>
> >Interesting...
>
> >When we went the last time (was it in 2007?) we attempted to buy a
> >single day park hopper, but the *only* option was for a 2 day park
> >hopper - which is what we bought, since the second day doesn't
> >expire. We were last there in October, during Horror Nights. Maybe 1
> >day park hopper wasn't available during that time of year??
>
> The last time I was there -- a few years ago now -- they were actually
> primarily promoting the one day hopper option over the one park option. The
> one-day hopper was in big bold letters, while the one park option was in
> tiny letters at the bottom of the sign.
>
> The implication they were trying to push was that THIS is the ticket to
> get, the one everyone gets. But, I guess, if you really must, we also have
> that crappy cheapo ticket, too....
>
> "With the first link, a chain is forged. The first speech censured,
> the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us
> all irrevocably." -Capt. Jean-Luc Picard
> "The Drumhead", _Star Trek: The Next Generation_
I know at least one time when we went down the one-day hopper wasn't
on the board (neither was the Power Pass) but was sold in the booth.
But we always buy in advance at AAA.
----------
It was an option in late June, when I went. Primary option, even.
Rastus O'Ginga
>
> Most Disney parks are 3-4 hour parks if they aren't packed. It's just that they are always packed.
>
> --
> |\-/|
> <0 0>
> =(o)=
> -Wolf
Or at least they appear to be packed because Fastpass ensures long
waits for the main rides, even on slow days.
-RO
Rastus O'Ginga
>
> IOA has more things in common with DCA than most IOA lovers (or DCA
> haters) would probably be willing to admit.
>
> Both parks were built in the respective parking lots of their elder
> parks. Both parks were part of a rebranding effort into multi-park
> "resorts". Both parks were built with the general idea of attracting
> guests looking for more adventurous attractions.
The huge difference is that IOA was an E-ticket park with a few D
tickets. DCA was a C ticket park with a few E tickets. The only true
E tickets at DCA were Screamin' and GRR. The rest of the park was
mediocre at best.
> On the cover, IOA has always appeared to be a full day park and DCA a
> half day park. Once the novelty of IOA's attractions wore off, I too
> entered a mindset that one lap around the lagoon (on a light crowd
> day) was all I needed to get my fill. My favorite attractions at IOA
> (Dragon Challenge, Toon Lagoon water rides) are still among the best
> in their class, but the rest of the park's attractions are one and
> done for me these days.
That is true to an extent, but IOA is still one and done rides. How
many ORIGINAL DCA rides do you give a damn about now? Probably the
two aforementioned E-tickets, and that's it. I can't wait to hit
Spidey, Dragons, Hulk, Popeye, Dudley, JP, and Cat in the Hat next
month. Even one and done on those rides is a fabulously fun day. And
on top of that I can now add the most advanced ride in the world. DCA
has added a fantastic D-ticket dark ride and a cheap copy of a
phenomenal E-ticket dark ride.
When Mermaid and Cars opens, I think DCA will finally be comparable to
IOA on opening day.
>
> Not to make this into an IOA/DCA discussion, but I think today DCA
> offers a better variety of attractions than IOA (which will only be
> cemented further with Mermaid and Carsland on the horizon). If one
> visits IOA on a cool day and not in water ride mode, there are only
> (pre-Harry Potter) about 10 attractions total to experience. Granted,
> many of these are monster E-Tickets, but I have always felt IOA lacked
> the C ticket fillers like Golden Zephyr, Monsters Inc, Fun Wheel, etc
> that to me are a critical element in a "full day park" experience.
> From a food perspective, IOA has gone down the tubes in quality since
> the original opening. Even Mythos has seen a noticeable drop off
> IMO.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Maybe you expect something different from parks. DCA is a boring
mess of a park. Uninteresting theming in most areas, poor layout, no
real star attraction (it doesn't have a world class unique E-ticket,
IOA has 4 or 5).
IOA's numbers are poor because of the stupid GP. They grab on to the
Disney teet at the airport, and don't let go until they are ready to
leave. Almost everyone I talk to at work that goes to Orlando doesn't
hit Universal, and they are mostly highly educated, generally frugal
people. Instead they stay onsite and stuipidly pay disney $50 per
person PER DAY for their entire stay to go to the parks. They then
say they coudn't afford to get a car to go to Universal.
I think Harry Potter will finally change that. Kids will kill their
parents now if they go to Orlando and don't hit Universal. Unless
Disney has a bus route that doesn't pass any Harry Potter signs (and I
almost bet they do), every kid is going to want to go to IOA now. And
I think when they find out that Harry's friends have some Amazing
rides too, the Disney parks just won't hold up as well.
We'll see. I think this is the best thing Universal could possibly
have done. But, you must never underestimate the sheer stupidity of
the average human being. They still call months in advance to pay
Disney $100 a day to stay in a motel 6 with a big Rubic's cube out
front.
-RO
Mike Kallay
> Most Disney parks are 3-4 hour parks if they aren't packed. It's just that they are always packed.
>
> --
> |\-/|
> <0 0>
> =(o)=
> -Wolf
That's just a stupid comment. IOA is a 3-4 hour park because of its
lack of attractions/shows.
The two studio parks might be the only 3-4 hour parks in the Disney
arsenal. Are you telling me that you can see & do most to all of the
attractions at every other Disney park in that time? As vast as the
offering is at Disneyland, Epcot, Animal Kingdom, TDS, etc., unless
you choose to narrow down the attractions to only those appealing to
you directly, there is virtually no way to do all of the attractions
in one day. And, that's regardless of the crowds.
/m
nogodforme
> I think Harry Potter will finally change that. Kids will kill their
> parents now if they go to Orlando and don't hit Universal. Unless
> Disney has a bus route that doesn't pass any Harry Potter signs (and I
> almost bet they do), every kid is going to want to go to IOA now. And
> I think when they find out that Harry's friends have some Amazing
> rides too, the Disney parks just won't hold up as well.
>
> We'll see. I think this is the best thing Universal could possibly
> have done. But, you must never underestimate the sheer stupidity of
> the average human being. They still call months in advance to pay
> Disney $100 a day to stay in a motel 6 with a big Rubic's cube out
> front.
>
> -RO
Good Post. Both parks have fluff crap that adds up to nothing.
At DCA the entire area leading to ToT is fluff. The same can be
said about areas of USF near T2 (Lucy Tribute) and the old Herc and
Zena building. I find that at all parks, there's areas that are
packed with gift shops, restaurants, and facades. I walk right past
this stuff on the way to the next thrill ride.
Correct in saying that you can't do Disney in a morning, because each
park has 2-3 good rides, and they're spread out across 4 parks, plus
they have 2 major water parks. The reason people stay at Disney is
because
1. They're brainwashed to go back year after year. It almost
becomes a competition to take the kids back and brag they know so much
about the place.
2. People have the mentality to visit one park each day and that's
it. So they figure they need a week of just Disney.
If rental car rates were not so expensive, more people would rent the
car. But the cost of the shuttle, taxi, or rental car is very
expensive. People say screw it and stay at Disney when in fact all
they would need is 3 hours in the morning to visit either IOA or
USF. Over on the Dis Boards, people visiting IOA wanted the 2 park
pass for one day. No, it's not on the web site "The Menu" but it is
sold at the gate. People only wanted to take one day away from
Disney, and they felt "Guilty" about doing it. They would agonize
about going, wondering if they were making the right decision.
Like I've said over and over, Disney has built in marketing. They
kids grow up in Disney rooms. Now, if people start growing up in HP
rooms, things could change. But I doubt someone is going to make a
baby room with pictures of HP, Hermoine, and Dombledoor on the wall.
Are they selling HP dolls? Don't hear about it. Wands and
broomsticks yes. Can you give that to a baby? No. Yet if you
walk into a Disney baby room, there will be drawings of Mickey on the
wall, Mickey lamp, furniture, a music box playing, "When you Wish Upon
a Star," Mickey and Minnie dolls, Pluto, Goofy, and so on. Babies
grow in in Disney rooms, and the parents take the kids to Disney World
over and over because they are brainwashed.
Rastus O'Ginga
It depends what you are going for. If I want to see a bunch of
outdated tourist videos, and eat a lot of food and drink wine (I know
this is your thing, but not really what I go to theme parks for), sure
I can spend all day at Epcot. My family did that opening year, and I
haven't seen one of the movies since. Ride/attraction wise, Epcot
is about a 2 hour park with no crowds. I'll be going there for EO,
and maybe Nemo this year, and that's it.
AK is again dependent if you are there just for the Notazoo section.
If you include shows at Disney, you must include Sinbad and Pseidon.
Although I seem to think Sinbad is closed.
Don't use DisneySea as an example of a park with vast option though.
It is exactly like IOA. Incredible E-ticket rides, but not a whole
hell of a lot else.
-RO
whois charlieatlantic
> Correct in saying that you can't do Disney in a morning, because each
> park has 2-3 good rides, and they're spread out across 4 parks, plus
> they have 2 major water parks. The reason people stay at Disney is
> because
> 1. They're brainwashed to go back year after year. It almost
> becomes a competition to take the kids back and brag they know so much
> about the place.
> 2. People have the mentality to visit one park each day and that's
> it. So they figure they need a week of just Disney.
>
>
> Like I've said over and over, Disney has built in marketing. They
> kids grow up in Disney rooms. Now, if people start growing up in HP
> rooms, things could change. But I doubt someone is going to make a
> baby room with pictures of HP, Hermoine, and Dombledoor on the wall.
> Are they selling HP dolls? Don't hear about it. Wands and
> broomsticks yes. Can you give that to a baby? No. Yet if you
> walk into a Disney baby room, there will be drawings of Mickey on the
> wall, Mickey lamp, furniture, a music box playing, "When you Wish Upon
> a Star," Mickey and Minnie dolls, Pluto, Goofy, and so on. Babies
> grow in in Disney rooms, and the parents take the kids to Disney World
> over and over because they are brainwashed.
I disagree with this profoundly.
My parents first took my sister and I to Florida in 1988 when I was
three, and she was two. They knew nothing about the area whatsoever. On
that first trip we spread the net fairly wide, and went to Magic
Kingdom, EPCOT, Wet 'n' Wild, Boardwalk 'n' Baseball, Busch Gardens, and
Sea World. When we went back the next year, in 1989, we spent most of
the time at Disney, forfeiting much that we'd done on the previous trip.
Why was this? It is possible that my family is/was brainwashed. It's
certainly unfalsifiable. But, it's unlikely. In my view, what actually
happened was that my parents were deeply impressed with Disney, and
considered WDW to have the majority of things they wanted from their
vacation on site: parks which were cleaner and safer and more friendly
than their counterparts, golf, an impressive balance of attractions
which appealed to both small children and adults, better food than is
found elsewhere, excellent customer service, and so on and so forth.
It's easy to fall into the trap of presuming that everybody thinks like
a rollercoaster enthusiast, but they don't. When I took my Dad to
Florida in 2000 we went to Busch Gardens and Sea World and IOA and rode
of all the big rides and loved it. My trip last year with my flatmate
saw a similar emphasis on thrill rides. But it's a different proposition
with small children and/or if the whole family is out there. In my
experience, and having been there in various different guises, the
Disney parks are not regarded in the one-park-each-day category because
Disney arbitrarily says so, but because, if a wide range of people are
in the party, that is exactly what they are. The last time my whole
family went to Florida, we found that the Disney days were universally
popular: my sister liked the water rides, my Mum liked the slow rides,
my Dad and I liked the rollercoasters, my little cousin enjoyed the
parades and the shows and the Winnie The Pooh breakfast, and my Uncle
enjoyed geeking out at EPCOT. And more importantly, there were no rides
which bored anyone, even if they weren't their favourites. There is a
certain vicarious joy in visiting Disney with other people which is
often not present at other parks. The group doesn't often have to split
up to accomodate differing priority. (To my disappointment) Islands of
Adventure was just not a hit in the same way.
I also don't buy your Disney vs. Harry Potter reasoning. Aside from it
being too early to tell what impact TWWHP will have on Universal, it
ignores the last eleven years: children may well not grow up with Harry
Potter merchandise, but they sure as hell grow up with Marvel Comics and
Dr. Seuss, neither of which have been enough to change the dynamic.
Finally, given the cost, it would take some pretty efficient
brainwashing/false consciousness to convince someone to return to Disney
year after year unless they enjoyed it. I have listened to 'Sgt.
Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band' or 'Dark Side Of The Moon' or
Mozart's 25th Symphony thousands of times each, and I know pretty much
every note, every pause, and every pop and click and mistake. But I
still love it. Maybe I enjoy the familiarity, but I only got to a stage
of such familiarity because I liked it enough in the first place to bear
repeated listens.
And I didn't grow up with Pink Floyd wallpaper.
Keith Hopkins
message news:i26dnq$93r$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>
> I disagree with this profoundly.
<snip>
> Finally, given the cost, it would take some pretty efficient
> brainwashing/false consciousness to convince someone to return to
> Disney year after year unless they enjoyed it. I have listened to
> 'Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band' or 'Dark Side Of The Moon'
> or Mozart's 25th Symphony thousands of times each, and I know pretty
> much every note, every pause, and every pop and click and mistake.
> But I still love it. Maybe I enjoy the familiarity, but I only got
> to a stage of such familiarity because I liked it enough in the
> first place to bear repeated listens.
>
> And I didn't grow up with Pink Floyd wallpaper.
1. For goodness sake, don't come in here with your reasoned arguments
and calm mature approach. Inappropriate. You're supposed to shout
and screech like the rest of us howler monkeys.
2. I shudder to think what Pink Floyd wallpaper would look like. I
wouldn't want to be in a room decorated with Roger Waters' personal
issues.
3. Viands most likely grew up with Leaving Las Vegas wallpaper.
--
Keith Hopkins
suss...@sssssssssgmail.ssssssssscom
[clear up the hissing to email]
"You don't need fashion designers when you
are young. Have faith in your own bad taste."
John Waters
mamoosh
<sussk...@sssssssssgmail.ssssssssscom> wrote:
> 3. Viands most likely grew up with Leaving Las Vegas wallpaper.
It was scratch-n-lick : - )
Keith Hopkins
news:5ecdb14d-0061-4197...@u38g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Why is it always tongues with you?
Pathetic BaSSclown
<sussk...@sssssssssgmail.ssssssssscom> wrote:
> Why is it always tongues with you?
Have you spent ANY AMOUNT OF TIME AT ALL with this man????
:D
Keith Hopkins
news:44a01b07-c944-4fd7...@q35g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
Yes. Yes I have. And it's always tongues. I want to know WHY.
On second thought, maybe I don't want to know.
nogodforme
<sussk...@sssssssssgmail.ssssssssscom> wrote:
> "Pathetic BaSSclown" <bassistist...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:44a01b07-c944-4fd7...@q35g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Jul 21, 2:44 pm, "Keith Hopkins"
> > <sussk...@sssssssssgmail.ssssssssscom> wrote:
>
> >> Why is it always tongues with you?
>
> > Have you spent ANY AMOUNT OF TIME AT ALL with this man????
>
> Yes. Yes I have. And it's always tongues. I want to know WHY.
>
> On second thought, maybe I don't want to know.
>
> --
> Keith Hopkins
> [clear up the hissing to email]
> "You don't need fashion designers when you
> are young. Have faith in your own bad taste."
> John Waters
Well, think about this.
Disney now owns Marvel. So guess what they can do?
Not sell it in the baby stores. The only cartoon related wall
stickers and dolls you'll find are mostly Disney. They've got dogs,
cats, mice, princesses, lions.
About the only thing Universal has you'd find in a baby store is Shrek
and ET.
Steelforce
>
> - Show quoted text -
Curious George? Woody Woodpecker? Dr Seuss? seriously?!
Wolf
>
lack of attractions/shows.
The two studio parks might be the only 3-4 hour parks in the Disney
arsenal. Are you telling me that you can see & do most to all of the
attractions at every other Disney park in that time? As vast as the
offering is at Disneyland, Epcot, Animal Kingdom, TDS, etc., unless
you choose to narrow down the attractions to only those appealing to
you directly, there is virtually no way to do all of the attractions
in one day. And, that's regardless of the crowds.
/m
--------
Epcot, if you hit every single country, takes all day. (I've done it -- it was... interminable)
But Magic Kingdom, if not slammed, is basically a better-dressed Adventureland. I could do every ride of even minor interest in 3-4 hours if I ran from ride to ride and didn't need to spend an hour waiting The Ride Disney Has Forgotten.
Wolf
many ORIGINAL DCA rides do you give a damn about now? Probably the
two aforementioned E-tickets, and that's it. I can't wait to hit
Spidey, Dragons, Hulk, Popeye, Dudley, JP, and Cat in the Hat next
month. Even one and done on those rides is a fabulously fun day. And
on top of that I can now add the most advanced ride in the world. DCA
has added a fantastic D-ticket dark ride and a cheap copy of a
phenomenal E-ticket dark ride.
I've ridden Cat in the Hat every time I've gone. I'm not sure why, but I really like that ride.
---------
We'll see. I think this is the best thing Universal could possibly
have done. But, you must never underestimate the sheer stupidity of
the average human being. They still call months in advance to pay
Disney $100 a day to stay in a motel 6 with a big Rubic's cube out
front.
-RO
---------
Probably. But I've got to admit, the Grand Floridian is a hell of a hotel.
Wolf
>
> family went to Florida, we found that the Disney days were universally
> popular: my sister liked the water rides, my Mum liked the slow rides,
> my Dad and I liked the rollercoasters, my little cousin enjoyed the
> parades and the shows and the Winnie The Pooh breakfast, and my Uncle
> enjoyed geeking out at EPCOT. And more importantly, there were no rides
> which bored anyone, even if they weren't their favourites. There is a
> certain vicarious joy in visiting Disney with other people which is
> often not present at other parks. The group doesn't often have to split
> up to accomodate differing priority. (To my disappointment) Islands of
> Adventure was just not a hit in the same way.
>
> I also don't buy your Disney vs. Harry Potter reasoning. Aside from it
> being too early to tell what impact TWWHP will have on Universal, it
> ignores the last eleven years: children may well not grow up with Harry
> Potter merchandise, but they sure as hell grow up with Marvel Comics and
> Dr. Seuss, neither of which have been enough to change the dynamic.
As nuts as Viands is, his argument isn't without merit.
Disney has a built-in audience that they could probably coast by with for 20 years. The whole Princesses phenomenon is both remarkable and a remarkable indictment of our culture, but a huge boon for Disney's bottom end, on both the parks and the IP sides. Universal had none of that.
Seuss is a nice property, but trends young for Universal's audience, and Seuss has been dead for years now. Marvel is a nice catch for teens, but really only Spiderman is truly themed in, and hell, half the kids are DC fans (read: morons) anyway. But Harry Potter is a phenomenon as well, and one that hits right at Universal's chief demographic -- tweens to college-aged. The people too old for Disney and too young for Sea World and too busy to drive to Busch.
It's worth remembering that WDW is Disney's second go. IoA compares much mroe favorably with its more comparable park, Disneyland. WDW is mind-bogglingly huge. It's basically a city designed to separate your cash from your wallet. On an infrastructure and IP standpoint, it's very much what Las Vegas aspires to be for adults. In fact, my original impression of Las Vegas is that it's basically an adult Disneyworld, Pinocchio's Fantasy Land writ-large.
But I think HP might be Universal's golden goose. And they've done a very Disney job of it. As much as we criticize the shops and what-not, isn't that exactly what Disney's parks are? Have you really paid attention to how Disney's parks are laid out?
Wolf
Well, think about this.
Disney now owns Marvel. So guess what they can do?
Not sell it in the baby stores. The only cartoon related wall
stickers and dolls you'll find are mostly Disney. They've got dogs,
cats, mice, princesses, lions.
About the only thing Universal has you'd find in a baby store is Shrek
and ET.
------------
If I remember correctly, the licensing deal between Marvel and Universal came up in the anti-trust investigation the FEC did on that acquisition. I think Disney is forbidden from seeing Universal's numbers as part of that deal.
nogodforme
This is spot on. If you know how to play things, then it's an adult
play ground.
You can literally walk the hotel properties with beer in hand. And
the security guards look the other way. You can ride up the elevators
of the Strat drinking a beer, and they're cool with it.
Of coarse, the drink prices at the pools and bars are
astronomical.
You have to stock up at the stores west of the strip.
You're going to lose on the slots and gambling, but it's a fun town to
visit.
Steelforce
ITS ALL RIGGED!
Mufassa
run out?" It is an Intellegent presumtion that Universal is planning
for the day that Marvel Island sinks beneath the waves
Shawn Mamros
>The big question about the Marvel/Universal License is"When does it
>run out?" It is an Intellegent presumtion that Universal is planning
>for the day that Marvel Island sinks beneath the waves
The biggest question would be what/whom could they find to replace
the Marvel theming. Not sure that there are any viable options
out there at present.
Even if the license is long-term, it's possible that one side or
the other might want to buy the other out to end it early. Can't
help but think that Disney would love to use the Marvel characters
on their own property, something they probably can't currently do
under the existing license terms. Universal, on the other hand,
unless they come up with something else to replace Marvel, would
probably just as soon hold on to the license. Even if they have
a replacement in mind, they'd probably want to charge the Mouse
the full cost of retheming the section - at the very least.
-s
Dave Althoff, Jr.
: On Jul 24, 8:06 pm, "Wolf" <bill.buss...@gmail.com> wrote:
: >
: > If I remember correctly, the licensing deal between Marvel and
: > Universal came up in the anti-trust investigation the FEC did on that
: > acquisition. I think Disney is forbidden from seeing Universal's
: > numbers as part of that deal.
: The big question about the Marvel/Universal License is"When does it
: run out?" It is an Intellegent presumtion that Universal is planning
: for the day that Marvel Island sinks beneath the waves
Last time I was at Islands of Adventure, one of the things I noticed was
that as you proceed counterclockwise around the park, it seems that the
level of detail drops off sharply somewhere near Dudley Do Right's Ripsaw
Falls. The Port of Entry, Seuss Landing, Lost Continent, Jurassic
Park...particularly Jurassic Park...all have a very completed feel to them.
Somehow it is so well executed that it really feels like you've stepped
into these themed worlds. The work that was being done on the Harry Potter
stuff at the time suggested that it too would have that level of immersion.
But as you round the corner at about the 10:00 position, things seem to
change a bit. It's almost as though the effort was there, but the
execution just wasn't quite so complete. I suspect that part of it is that
both Toon Lagoon and Marvel Superhero Island are not about "place" in the
way that the other areas are. The result is that they kind of look more
like Six Flags, only done to higher standards and with a bigger budget.
But Six Flags has an advantage over Universal. With Batman and Superman,
Six Flags can create environments that are about "place", whether Gotham
City or Metropolis. Those Marvel superheroes don't all necessarily occupy
the same world, and since they opted not to try and re-create the inside of
a comic book or newspaper, the result, while impressive, just doesn't
ultimately live up to the experience in the rest of the park.
I wonder if the idea people at Universal have similar thoughts when they
look at Islands of Adventure. I wonder if they're already trying to figure
out how to bring a better sense of "place" to Superhero Island. And with
that in mind, I wonder if they're already considering alternatives for when
it comes time to rebuild that space...
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
/X\ _ *** Respect rides. They do not respect you. ***
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/XXXXX\ /XXX\ /XXXX\_ /X\ /XXXXX\ /X\ /X\ /XXXXX
_/XXXXXXX\__/XXXXX\/XXXXXXXX\_/XXX\_/XXXXXXX\__/XXX\_/XXX\_/\_/XXXXXX
NEW! When emailing this account, include the 'canonical magic word' in
the body of your message for a quicker response.
Surf Dance Chris
<dalloff.gcfn....@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
While I agree with you about Toon Lagoon, I always sensed that Marvel
was authentic as that simple comic book feel, not comic book character
movie, but actual comic book. Like web the backgrounds are simple
buildings, and are simply labeled "Diner" or "Comics", for example.
Toon Lahoon was always the odd one for me. Because it's a lot of
cutout type things all around the place with some water fountains and
such. And the characters were all almost obsolete. Just seemed like a
strange choice for the 5th island. The 2 rides in the land are superb
though. Dudley is one of he most entertaining rides, especially for a
water ride, and Popeye is great as well.
-"Surf Dance" Chris
Wolf
You'll find that if you simply proceed clockwise instead, the detail gets
really stellar right around 10 o'clock. It's a cheaper way to improve the
theming.
David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply
I think that the biggest problem with creating a Marvel Comics land in a
theme park setting is the fact that most of Marvel super-heroes don't
occupy fictional cities as most of DC's heroes do.
As such, in the movies based on DC heroes, the designers have a lot more
free reign to create a real specific feel for the cities, particularly with
regards to Gotham City.
Most of Marvel's heroes are based in modern-day New York. And it's hard to
really do big-city New York well on a theme park budget. And Universal
already has a New York setting -albeit a more classic older New York movie
setting, over at their main park. And very little about New York in the
Marvel movies really screams specifically "Marvel Heroes", other than
perhaps the Daily Bugle newspaper, which is what the Spider-Man ride is
based around.
That's why it's hard to create a real sense of "place" from Marvel Island
as a whole, other than by putting up pictures and cutouts of Marvel Heroes
all over the place. Individually, the rides are based on the settings of
their themes. With Spider-Man, the Daily Bugle is the obvious setting.
With Doom, it's his fictional home nation of Latveria. While it comes
across well to fans of the comics, people who only casually know Doom and
the Fantastic Four won't really get the theming well. Especially since
Latveria does not feature in either of the Fantastic Four movies. And with
Hulk, it's based around the laboratories that Bruce/David/Robert Banner
worked in. That's about as much of a set setting as Hulk has ever really
been based in. If Storm Force hadn't been such a thrown together add-in,
they could have tried for a school setting for Professor Xavier's School
for Gifted Youngsters, but it would really take a whole land to get the
theming right, I'd think.
And I think that the same would hold true for Toon Lagoon. After all, the
area is based on dozens of different cartoon characters, with no real
common setting. What could you really do that would scream "toon" that
they haven't already done.
With the other lands, it's a lot easier to set the tone and sense of
"place" well. Doctor Suess had such a distinct style that's easily
recognizable. The medieval fantasy setting of what was once the larger
Lost Continent was fairly easy to achieve (although it wasn't really
anything to do with any "lost continent") And the Jurassic Park movies had
a very distinctive style, also easy to replicate on a park budget.
Wolf
> "place" well. Doctor Suess had such a distinct style that's easily
> recognizable. The medieval fantasy setting of what was once the larger
> Lost Continent was fairly easy to achieve (although it wasn't really
> anything to do with any "lost continent")
I think it was supposed to be Atlantis.
Mike Kallay
<davidhhhSTOPS...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> And I think that the same would hold true for Toon Lagoon. After all, the
> area is based on dozens of different cartoon characters, with no real
> common setting. What could you really do that would scream "toon" that
> they haven't already done.
They may as well have made this part of IOA the "Island of Forgotten
Toys," as it would have fit well with the C List group of characters
they licensed, and it would be awesome at Christmas time!
/m
David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply
<surfd...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>While I agree with you about Toon Lagoon, I always sensed that Marvel
>was authentic as that simple comic book feel, not comic book character
>movie, but actual comic book. Like web the backgrounds are simple
>buildings, and are simply labeled "Diner" or "Comics", for example.
>
>Toon Lahoon was always the odd one for me. Because it's a lot of
>cutout type things all around the place with some water fountains and
>such. And the characters were all almost obsolete. Just seemed like a
>strange choice for the 5th island. The 2 rides in the land are superb
>though. Dudley is one of he most entertaining rides, especially for a
>water ride, and Popeye is great as well.
>
>-"Surf Dance" Chris
And that's the odd thing about Toon Lagoon. Because they couldn't get any
of the more popular cartoon characters, they had to settle for a bunch of
second stringers. And it shows in the whole theming. After all, most
major cartoon characters that both kids and adults would recognize are
already tied up at other amusement parks. I mean, think about, if they
can't use any Disney, Hanna-Barbera, Loony Tunes, Peanuts or Nickelodeon
characters, which are all tied up in the competitors' theme park chains,
what does that really leave?
And it makes for an interesting disjointed theming. Does the "Toon" in
Toon Lagoon" mean television cartoons, like in the rides themed to cartoons
like Dudley Do-Right and Popeye (who's surely FAR more known for his
cartoons than his old comic strip)? Or does it mean the comic strips that
provide most of the non-ride theming in the land?
But how many kids these days have ever even heard of Popeye, much less
Dudley Do-Right?
David H.--REMOVE "STOPSPAM" to reply
One would think from the name.
But did anything in the original theming of the land actually have anything
to do with Atlantis? The only thing that really came close to it that I
can think of is Poseidon's Fury. And Poseidon and Zeus weren't part of the
Atlantis myth (although they both at least come from Greek mythology), as
far as I'm aware. And the new (horrible!) version with Darkanon seems even
less to do with it.
Plus, the rest of the setting of the land was distinctly Medieval in
nature, which is well over 1000 years after the time when Atlantis sank!
Again, disjointed IOA theming. Rather than go with an actual specific
theme, they were going for more of a feel than anything.
Wolf
wrote in message news:h0hj86hbo183ged3q...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 7 Sep 2010 22:11:59 -0400, "Wolf" <bill.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> With the other lands, it's a lot easier to set the tone and sense of
>>> "place" well. Doctor Suess had such a distinct style that's easily
>>> recognizable. The medieval fantasy setting of what was once the larger
>>> Lost Continent was fairly easy to achieve (although it wasn't really
>>> anything to do with any "lost continent")
>>
>>I think it was supposed to be Atlantis.
>
> One would think from the name.
>
> But did anything in the original theming of the land actually have
> anything
> to do with Atlantis? The only thing that really came close to it that I
> can think of is Poseidon's Fury. And Poseidon and Zeus weren't part of
> the
> Atlantis myth (although they both at least come from Greek mythology), as
> far as I'm aware. And the new (horrible!) version with Darkanon seems
> even
> less to do with it.
The statuary was aquatic in nature.
Funtype
>
>
> The statuary was aquatic in nature.
>
>
That's to keep the whole "Island" thing "REAL".
Hey waidaminute aren't Marvel and Suess toon based...
--CM
i'm just sayin'
Dave Althoff, Jr.
: On Tue, 7 Sep 2010 22:11:59 -0400, "Wolf" <bill.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
:
: >> With the other lands, it's a lot easier to set the tone and sense of
: >> "place" well. Doctor Suess had such a distinct style that's easily
: >> recognizable. The medieval fantasy setting of what was once the larger
: >> Lost Continent was fairly easy to achieve (although it wasn't really
: >> anything to do with any "lost continent")
: >
: >I think it was supposed to be Atlantis.
:
: One would think from the name.
:
: But did anything in the original theming of the land actually have anything
: to do with Atlantis? The only thing that really came close to it that I
: can think of is Poseidon's Fury. And Poseidon and Zeus weren't part of the
: Atlantis myth (although they both at least come from Greek mythology), as
: far as I'm aware. And the new (horrible!) version with Darkanon seems even
: less to do with it.
:
: Plus, the rest of the setting of the land was distinctly Medieval in
: nature, which is well over 1000 years after the time when Atlantis sank!
:
: Again, disjointed IOA theming. Rather than go with an actual specific
: theme, they were going for more of a feel than anything.
...But even with a nonspecific theme, it was coherent enough to be its own
"place" and it felt "right". That's the point behind the Islands of
Adventure, not necessarily that each island is a familiar place, but each
island is a place unto itself, and everything in that place relates
somehow. Okay, so Lost Continent felt like two separate places, but each
was at least internally coherent. And one of those is now Hogwarts anyway.
8-)
The most intensive level of detail, I think, is (or at least was) Jurassic
Park. Once you crossed over that bridge, you were quite literally *there*.
Wolf
> "place" and it felt "right". That's the point behind the Islands of
> Adventure, not necessarily that each island is a familiar place, but each
> island is a place unto itself, and everything in that place relates
> somehow. Okay, so Lost Continent felt like two separate places, but each
> was at least internally coherent. And one of those is now Hogwarts
> anyway.
> 8-)
>
> The most intensive level of detail, I think, is (or at least was) Jurassic
> Park. Once you crossed over that bridge, you were quite literally
> *there*.
>
> --Dave Althoff, Jr.
I thought Seuss Landing felt pretty there, too.