Shortwave Time Signals - Where have they gone?
ChrisCoaster
pick up time signals at at least SOME of those shortwave frequencies.
Since 2002, they have become harder & harder to pick up. Are they
being replaced by the internet??
My receiving equipment? Don't laugh: old-school boomboxes, which all
had SW1 & 2 bands on them covering from 2.5kHz up to 22 - 25kHz.
Don't say it's my boomboxes, because I still get plenty of BBC, VOA,
other broadcasts in every language imaginable, and enough religion
that I need never step near a church(!). The only thing missing:
those beepin' time signals.
Any clues where the signals have gone?
-ChrisCoaster
willis...@embarqmail.com
> Acc to http://www.dxinfocentre.com/time.htm, I should be able to
Sorry, but it is the boomboxes that you're using. WWV doesn't have
nearly the signal strength of those stations you mentioned. Factor in
time of day and overall conditions, you may get a signal every now and
then but certainly not on a regular basis.
I also had a big Aiwa boombox back in the 80's and while I also got
the BBC and VOA with it, that was all I got with it.
ChrisCoaster
>
> - Show quoted text -
_____________________
Well, I actually do pick up a LOT on them - just can't name every
program that I turn the dial past, so only the obvious come to mind
here. Sometimes the material I get is so bunched together I need to
use the fine-tune knob on those boxes that have it, just to pick out
all the stations ontop of each other.
That still doesn't explain the very conspicuous absence of those time
signals.
dxAce
ChrisCoaster wrote:
> Acc to http://www.dxinfocentre.com/time.htm , I should be able to
> pick up time signals at at least SOME of those shortwave frequencies.
>
> Since 2002, they have become harder & harder to pick up. Are they
> being replaced by the internet??
Many of the time signals of years past are long gone, though the list you
cited seems to be fairly up to date.
I was very interested in time signal stations in years past and believe I have
27-28 of them QSL'd (veried, for those in Glendale).
dxAce
Michigan
USA
Drake R7, R8, R8A and R8B
70' and 200' wires
239 countries heard and 224 QSL'd (veried for those in Glendale) using the
NASWA Country List.
And, as always, don't let your children attend the Sullivan College of
Technology & Design.
They've hired at least one dufus who once claimed to have a PhD, and who
knows, there may be more dufi there.
ChrisCoaster
I was just curious, because when I set all my watches to within a
second of the time off the shortwave, its amusing at work and at
peoples houses to see just how all over the place the time is set!
Even WABC 770 in NY, consistently when a news caster(Charles McCord,
Bruce Anderson, or Jen Nitosso) states the time it's at least
30seconds behind the time on my watch! What radio station is more
than 10 sec off, let alone over half a minute?
Some folks I understand they set their watches 5 minutes fast, to
"keep ahead" of things, but come on.
I prefer to get these signals off shortwave than off the internet(up
to 1/10th second delay) or phone(1/20th second delay), and can't
believe of all the services the government is cutting in times of
economic crisis they cut time signals!!
-CC
dave
WWV on 10 MHz is pretty reliable in the daytime. 5 MHz at night. It
might be scratchy but it's still there.
m II
> WWV on 10 MHz is pretty reliable in the daytime. 5 MHz at night. It
> might be scratchy but it's still there.
Scratchy? I'm not surprised. The 60 rpm vinyl record is getting pretty
worn. The drunks at the time station starting the needle wherever they
want also does not help.
" Hey Fred..ya gots to hear this...shwell stuff. I really got the hots
for that Hawaiian wench"...as he jams it into the groove as only a drunk
can.
mike
--
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
/ /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /\ / /
/ /\ \/ /\'Think tanks cleaned cheap' /\ \/ /
/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/ \/_/
Densa International�
For the OTHER two percent.
Due to the insane amount of spam and garbage,
I block all postings with a Gmail, Google Mail,
Google Groups or HOTMAIL address.
I also filter everything from a .cn server.
For solutions which may work for you, please check:
http://improve-usenet.org/
~ RHF
> Acc to http://www.dxinfocentre.com/time.htm, I should be able to
CC,
On the East Coast of the USA you should
get the WWV Times Signals on 5, 10 and
15 MHz at 10 KW various times of the Day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWV_(radio_station)
Middle of the Night : 5 MHz [5,000 kHz]
Mid-Day : 15 MHz [15,000 kHz]
Mornings & Evening : 10 MHz [10,000 kHz]
The 2.5 and 20 MHz signals at 2.5 KW may
not be as easily heard.
.
One of the 'self-setting' Home "Atomic Clocks"
{Radio-Controlled} usually will give you a Daily
"To-the-Second" Time Standard in your Home
or Office.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000VYDKM
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3612618
http://www.allabouttime.net/Merchant5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=AAT&Category_Code=AC
.
Web-Based NIST /USNO - http://www.time.gov/
UTC : http://www.time.gov/timezone.cgi?UTC/s/0/java
USNO-NAVY-MIL : http://www.usno.navy.mil/
* Atomic Clock Sync
http://www.worldtimeserver.com/atomic-clock/
* World Time Server
http://www.worldtimeserver.com/
.
hth ~ RHF
.
SX-25
You didn't mention what equipment you were using however any of the
garden-variety Wal-Mart type
consumer short waves generally has abysmal calibration and frequently cannot
be depended upon to "hear" the whole band pursuant to its frequency display.
Also there are new shortwave bands that continuous coverage short waves
often include but they've dumped the old tried-and-true bands like 60 meters
(5 mc).
Yes, CHU is now on 7850 kc. They are the only organization that seems to
have cared enough of what their listeners preferences were. They were going
to drop their 41 meter facility altogether but conducted an e-mail survey
and listened to what the users wanted. They did have to move due to ITU
frequency reallocation nonsense.
I suspect your bigger problem has been propagation. It's been awful the last
few weeks. Be patient. Your old friends are still there beeping and will be
back when Ol' Sol settles down.
WA9VLK
P.S. Use of mc/kc is intentional although writer acknowledges its being
unfashionable. Whatever.
m II
> Yes, CHU is now on 7850 kc. They are the only organization that seems to
> have cared enough of what their listeners preferences were. They were
> going to drop their 41 meter facility altogether but conducted an e-mail
> survey and listened to what the users wanted. They did have to move due
> to ITU frequency reallocation nonsense.
=============================================
CQ Magazine is reporting the following:
CHU Moving to 7850 kHz
After seventy years of broadcasting Canada's official time, radio
station CHU will move from 7335 KHz to 7850 KHz. The change goes
into effect on 01 January 2009 at 00:00 UTC.
In April 2007, the International Telecommunications Union
re-allocated the 7300-7350 KHz band from "fixed service" to
broadcasting. Since then, interference on the 7335 KHz frequency has
come from many broadcasters around the world, prompting CHU's move.
==============================================
mike
SC Dxing
Still there.... I get 2500,5000,10000, and 15000... 20000 at daytime
on a good good day
CHU on 3330 and 7850 come in the best here
WWV is not very good for determining radio conditions, for most of us,
it comes from the opposite direction (Fort collins) than most
signals....
ChrisCoaster
I do get 7850 CHU, that's about all. China Unicom? Strange, the
language seem to alternate between Eng and French!
I think my environment is the least conducive to solid short-wave
performance of anyone's on here: Steel-frame apt building, digital
OTA converter boxes, VCRs, and other electronics. I've got to take
this box down to a park away from this electro-magnetic stew some
evening and see what it can really tune in. ;)
-CC
-CC
GregS
> I do get 7850 CHU, that's about all. China Unicom? Strange, the
> language seem to alternate between Eng and French!
Nothing strange about it. As you might have heard, English and French
are both official languages of Canada, and since CHU is a service
operated by a Canadian federal government agency, it must therefore
provide that service in both official languages.
Bruce Watson
SX-25 <teleg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I suspect your bigger problem has been propagation. It's been awful the last
>few weeks.
You have a gift for understatement.
Bruce Watson
I live about 70 miles south of the transmitter and almost
never hear WWV. WWVH comes in louder and clearer.
dave
That's how it works. WWV is aimed over your head.
SC Dxing
> I live about 70 miles south of the transmitter and almost
> never hear WWV. WWVH comes in louder and clearer.
It's like that here in SC with the WHRI transmitters... not real far
away but a hard catch, especially at night.
richnlewis
Although the time is UTC I find it more useful to compare my clock
with my computer rather than listen to WWV. For most people who
doesn't have a way to reset the clock and have a computer provided you
have a fresh battery in it, your computer clock can be compared with
WWV and WWVH periodically. I use WWV to set my 24 hour clock on my
Grundig G4000A periodically and the G4000A as a reference to set all
the rest of the clocks in the House. The atomic clocks reference
frequncy is a VLF signal from the National Bureau of Standards.If my
memory serves me it is in the vicinity of the VLF band that Submarines
use for Communcations.
Brenda Ann
"SC Dxing" <scd...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7057f80c-984e-4cf7...@y19g2000yqy.googlegroups.com...
That's because of the skip zones of HF frequencies. Unlike BCB, there is
very little ground wave on most of HF, it's all skywave, and the skip zone
starts very close to the transmitter.
Geoffrey S. Mendelson
> That's because of the skip zones of HF frequencies. Unlike BCB, there is
> very little ground wave on most of HF, it's all skywave, and the skip zone
> starts very close to the transmitter.
I can't hear a single numbers station attributed to the Mossad, but I am
less than 100 miles from anywhere they could be, probably less than 30.
Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel g...@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM
dave
I can't get KVOH, about 20 miles away. Could never hear Delano, either.
dave
> maybe when I'm in the mood for some mind rot I'll try to tune them in,
> but the VOA in Delano never came in as good as Bethany.
> Maybe those Sterbas were oriented away from SoCal
> so as to emphasize the polar path?
>
KVOH is even aimed in my direction...
Main Station Record - KVOH
Permittee: La Voz De Restauracion Broadcasting, Inc.
Call Sign: KVOH File Number: IHFASG-20040413
License/Renewal: Grant Date: 01/11/05 Expire Date: 01/11/09
CP/Pending Applications:
Transmitter Location: 1000 Box Canyon Rd. on Chatsworth Peak,
approx 1.0 km South of 118 Freeway
Transmitter City: Rancho Simi, CA
Coordinates: 34 15 23 N Latitude
118 38 29 W Longitude
Tower Heights: 44 Meters OHAGL 742 Meters OHAMSL
Obstruction Markings: None Required
Conditions: Must coordinate with FAA and take immediate corrective
action to eliminate any
adverse effects on avionics or ground equipment
resulting from operation of KVOH
until a mutually agreeable solution is found. OHAG: 44
m, OHAMSL: 742 m
Target Zones: 10-13
Address: La Voz De Restauracion Broadcasting, Inc
Radio Station KVOH
4409 W. Adams Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90016
Transmitters:
Power No. of
No. Model (KW) TXs Freq.
Tol. Emission
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 RCA BTH-100B 50.00 2 0.0015%
9K00A3E
Antennas:
Gain Azimuth Beamwidth Elevation.
No. Model (dB) (Deg) (Deg) (Deg)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1 LP 14.50 75 68.00 21.00
2 LP TCI 516-3A 14.00 100 68.00 21.00
~ RHF
wrote:
> Brenda Ann wrote:
> > That's because of the skip zones of HF frequencies. Unlike BCB, there is
> > very little ground wave on most of HF, it's all skywave, and the skip zone
> > starts very close to the transmitter.
>
I am
- less than 100 miles from anywhere they could be, probably less than
30.
-
- Geoff.
-
- --
GSM you may be less-than a 100 Miles from the
Transmitters - but the Mossad is said to be everywhere . . .
.
~ RHF
Yeah when "Radio Marti" was broadcast
from Delano, CA was a tuff listen here
in the Gold Country.
Radio Marti [VOA-BBG]
http://www.martinoticias.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Marti
* Radio Marti Shortwave Frequencies
http://www.martinoticias.com/frecuencia.aspx
ChrisCoaster
Perhaps I should clarify: When googling "CHU" most of the results I
got concerned "CHina Unicom".
I suspected this was a Canadian txer but that perhaps like everything
else on mother Earth it was Chinese owned. ;)
-CC
dave
ChrisCoaster
>
> That would explain the harmonics.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
_____________
Huh?
-blonde!
ChrisCoaster
>
> - Show quoted text -
First, a big BUMP to all of you'z.
Folks I just ran into this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communication
and I wonder if it could be the reason why most of my SW bands sound
like snow - day and night. Apparently it uses frequencies that
overlap extensively with traditional SW bands. Also, I happen to live
less than 50 feet from telephone poles/lines.
Shall I go out in the middle of a state forest and see what SW I pick
up?
-CC
Paul D. Spiegel
> Folks I just ran into this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_line_communication
> and I wonder if it could be the reason why most of my SW bands sound
> like snow - day and night. Apparently it uses frequencies that
> overlap extensively with traditional SW bands. Also, I happen to live
> less than 50 feet from telephone poles/lines.
>
> Shall I go out in the middle of a state forest and see what SW I pick
> up?
>
> -CC
I don't know about the powerline communication, but there is all kind of
RF noise in the house and city. I like to take my SW100 on hikes into the
local mountains (when they are not burning) and enjoy the much quieter
background.
- Paul
dxAce
ChrisCoaster wrote:
> Acc to http://www.dxinfocentre.com/time.htm , I should be able to
> pick up time signals at at least SOME of those shortwave frequencies.
ATA from India has been off now for some time and EBC from Spain has been off
for a while, but perhaps only temporarily.
There were of course many others which are now no longer on the air.
dxAce
Michigan
USA
ChrisCoaster
> > pick up time signals at at least SOME of those shortwave frequencies.
>
> ATA from India has been off now for some time and EBC from Spain has been off
> for a while, but perhaps only temporarily.
>
> There were of course many others which are now no longer on the air.
>
> dxAce
> Michigan
> USA
I've got that "Buzz Aldrin" edition G6 - is that a real Grundig?
Best tuner in the house, for sure!
But my real concern is that I know I can get the time signals on the
internet or phone, but aren't they delayed compared to getting them
straight off the shortwave?
-CC
"Admittedly smugly satisfied that his watch & clocks keep the best
time at home, work, and out on the town."
Art Harris
> I was just curious, because when I set all my watches to within a
> second of the time off the shortwave, its amusing at work and at
> peoples houses to see just how all over the place the time is set!
> Even WABC 770 in NY, consistently when a news caster(Charles McCord,
> Bruce Anderson, or Jen Nitosso) states the time it's at least
> 30seconds behind the time on my watch! What radio station is more
> than 10 sec off, let alone over half a minute?
>
Same here. I listen to WCBS 880 in the morning while having breakfast.
At the top of the hour, they announce, "The time is 6:00 a.m." and
there is a beep. But it is consistently slow by about 7 seconds.
Obviously, they are on a delay. But when you sound a beep, it ought to
be accurate! Maybe not a big deal but this is the flagship station of
the CBS network (50,000 watts clear channel).
I thought my watch was going bad as I had just set it to WWV!
Art Harris
ChrisCoaster
> ChrisCoaster wrote:
>
> >But my real concern is that I know I can get the time signals on the
> >internet or phone, but aren't they delayed compared to getting them
> >straight off the shortwave?
>
> air sources they are far closer to the source clocks than the result of
> phone line and or internet switching latency.
> As far as the G-6 is concerned, a good SW RCVR upgrade consideration
> would be the E1 which sets itself from HF WWV and will track the audible
> signal right down to gnats ass precision.
>
> --
>
> Operator Bob
> Echo Charlie 42
_______________________________
Wow! That certainly is an upgrade. Certainly out of my budget, but it
no longer seems to be available, at least not through Heartland,
Amazon, or other on-line E-tailers.
Another question - one Grundig leaves unanswered in the G6
instructions manual: WHERE can I pick up the antenna that would fit in
the mini 1/8" jack on the side? The manual says only that provision
is made for such antenna, but nothing about how to go about getting
one.
Or can I make one myself?
Thanks,
-CC
ChrisCoaster
>
> Same here. I listen to WCBS 880 in the morning while having breakfast.
> At the top of the hour, they announce, "The time is 6:00 a.m." and
> there is a beep. But it is consistently slow by about 7 seconds.
>
> Obviously, they are on a delay. But when you sound a beep, it ought to
> be accurate! Maybe not a big deal but this is the flagship station of
> the CBS network (50,000 watts clear channel).
>
> I thought my watch was going bad as I had just set it to WWV!
>
> Art Harris
___________________
1010 WINS also has tones - at the top AND bottom of every hour. But
from week to week I've noticed that WINS and WCBS change places like
Tony & Jimmy in a NASCAR race - LOL! one week WINS beeps 10 sec ahead
of CBS, the next week they're about dead heat, the next week, CBS
beats wins by 5 sec. Two week later, WINS's is first. WTF?? Can
anyone over at those stations set time?
And now that there are pretty much only 2 SW frequencies from where to
get official time signals, the situation is not promising.
And I'm in the cafeteria at work at 11:30am - I work an early early
shift, but get out at 3pm. :) So as the time approaches 12 on my
watch I start hearing other watches beeing as early as 11:54, and as
late as 12:05!!! It's almost comical! How difficult is it to get a
source to accurately set one's watch?
LOL
-CC
dave
KNX 1070 does the same thing. They use distributed time code; seems
like the master clock would have an offset.
Mark Zenier
Doesn't IBOC delay the analog that amount of time so that the dropouts can
be filled by falling back to the regular signal? Are they running IBOC,
(or maybe they are running through the processor, but have turned the
digital transmitter off).
KIRO in Seattle was simulcasting for a while (before they turned 710
kHz to sports talk) and the FM had that sort of delay.
Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)
dave
> ChrisCoaster wrote:
>> How difficult is it to get a
>> source to accurately set one's watch?
>
>
+1 on the G Shock Solar Atomic. Last watch I'll ever buy, I suspect.
ChrisCoaster
> Bob Dobbs wrote:
> >ChrisCoasterwrote:
> >> How difficult is it to get a
> >> source to accurately set one's watch?
>
> > Casio 'Solar Atomic' G-Shock
>
> +1 on the G Shock Solar Atomic. Last watch I'll ever buy, I suspect.
I DON'T want a watch or clock that sets itself.
What I meant by that question was, although most people can navigate
the buttons to set the watch, but they don't have access to an
accurate time source. I was alarmed by the spread at work, with
hourly beeps starting 6 minutes before the hour and some coming 2, 4,
or 5 minutes after the hour. Where DO people get their time?
-CC
ChrisCoaster
>
> couldn't be arsed as to where anyone else gets theirs
> or how far it is skewed in the process.
>
> BTW: If ever I'm endowed with enough authoritative power,
> I'll do away with 'savings time' for good.
> and keep California off Arizona time like we are these days.
>
> --
>
> Operator Bob
> Echo Charlie 42
_____________________
The only thing it does is make sunrises so freakin' late esp in March,
Oct and Nov.
I get mine from NIST too, Bob, but then, we are not "average
people". ;)
I'd venture to guess that only 1 out of 10 homes has at least a
portable SW radio - like my G6 or one of the current Sangeans or
Sonys.
1 out of 100 probably has a good table model with external antenna run
up the roof.
Of the preceding two groups, only a fraction of those folks even know
what frequecies NIST transmits on.
1 out of 1000 is an Echo Charlie like yourself.
All the rest probably get the time off the news or when an announcer
(like Imus) says the time on AM or FM radio. If not that, then the
digital readout outside of many bank branches - none of which I've
seen closer to NIST time than 1 minute off.
Nobody at work can stand me because to them my watch is either "too
fast" or "too slow". LOLOL!
-CC
dave
A GPS receiver is dead-on accurate.
dave
> dave wrote:
> constellation, but my Gamin has about a half second LCD refresh delay,
> so that it isn't ever as accurate as the audible from Colorado.
>
I've only ever had one, a Magellan 300, and the time on it is always
within a half-second vs. WWV. I have a Casio Atomic I wear when I work
live shows, but they start a few seconds early for the profanity delay.
So the watch is still off, as far as the job at hand is concerned. I as
a rule do not wear a watch. I have lots of clocks.
I listen to the BBC World Service via web stream at vpr.net. They are
about 2 seconds late, which isn't bad for an internet stream. Clear
Channel's KTLK web stream is dead-on. They have a cool ID.
ChrisCoaster
>
> - Show quoted text -
__________________
station, they can count on setting their watch approximately 5-10
seconds ahead(of that station) and probably be very close to WWVB or
WWVH.
-CC
ChrisCoaster
> >station, they can count on setting their watch approximately 5-10
> >seconds ahead(of that station) and probably be very close to WWVB or
> >WWVH.
>
>
> --
>
> Operator Bob
> Echo Charlie 42
___________________
I should have clarified my statement "if {{an average Joe/Jane}} is
using the tones from {{1010 wins}}," Then synch timepiece to slightly
ahead of the tone from the station.
-CC
Brenda Ann
"ChrisCoaster" <ckoz...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:e71377bf-9737-41d6...@p9g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
I should be noted that those of us who are SWL's or AMBCB DX'ers (a form of
nerd) are much more concerned with the "exact" time, whereas the vast
majority of people on Earth find +/- 5 minutes to be quite adequate. Some
even far less than that (folks here figure if they show up to work less than
half an hour late, they're still considered to be "on time")
ChrisCoaster
wrote:
> "ChrisCoaster" <ckozi...@snet.net> wrote in message
Nerds we shortwave listeners or Dxers are not. We should be proud -
damn proud - of our hobby, and the timekeeping possibilities it
presents.
The clock we punch in at work gains 1 minute per month! And it
replaced one - of the same make & model - that used to gain TWO
minutes per month. The same exact make & model, in another department
staffed by the same contractor that I work for, LOSES a minute per
month. LOL!
Wait a minute Brenda - HERE IT IS!! I drop my card into this pile of
gears every freakin day:
http://www.ecptime.on.ca/amanoMJR7000.html
I can't believe I found the sunovabitch on line!! This clock sucks.
No two keep the same time - or the right time, for that matter.
-CC
dave
> ___________________
> Again, you and I are not "average" off-the-air consumers.
>
> I should have clarified my statement "if {{an average Joe/Jane}} is
> using the tones from {{1010 wins}}," Then synch timepiece to slightly
> ahead of the tone from the station.
>
> -CC
Average consumers don't care what time it is that much. The quest for
the exact time is what leads some people to shortwave radio in the first
place. As Dick Nixon told Raoul Duke "Fuck the doomed."
~ RHF
- "Fuck the doomed."
OK Dave -Then Doomed You Be ! ;-} ~ RHF
.
Brenda Ann
http://www.ecptime.on.ca/amanoMJR7000.html
You know what? It's strange, in a way, but my personal experience is that
when clocks went from analog to digital, they stopped keeping good time. The
old synchronous motors had more than enough flywheel effect that if the line
frequency DID happen to shift for a moment or two, the clock didn't change
speed with it. Now that everything is running off of a crystal (32.* KHz?)
that is mass produced by the billions and no two are alike, nothing keeps
decent time anymore. Were there ever AC operated digital clocks that simply
got their sync from the line?
cuh...@webtv.net
what Curley (The Three Stooges) did.Wear three wristwatches on your
arm.Way it works is, one watch is fast, one watch is slow, the third
watch doesn't work at all.So, divide the difference between the three
watches and you have the correct time.
cuhulin
Bill Baka
> ChrisCoaster wrote:
>> station, they can count on setting their watch approximately 5-10
>> seconds ahead(of that station) and probably be very close to WWVB or
>> WWVH.
>
>
NBS has changed it's name to NIST, WWV remains untouched. Propagation
delay is on the order of 1000/183,000 miles per second so that leaves
about 5 milliseconds of error here in the sates.
What's the big deal?
Bill Baka
~ RHF
Punch 'In' on the Slow Time-Clock a Minute Late
Punch 'Out' on the Fast Time-Clock a Minute Early
.
wear a watch with 'no' hands
cause time is an illusion ~ RHF
.
Mark Zenier
Brenda Ann <newsg...@fullspectrumradio.org> wrote:
>
>You know what? It's strange, in a way, but my personal experience is that
>when clocks went from analog to digital, they stopped keeping good time. The
>old synchronous motors had more than enough flywheel effect that if the line
>frequency DID happen to shift for a moment or two, the clock didn't change
>speed with it. Now that everything is running off of a crystal (32.* KHz?)
>that is mass produced by the billions and no two are alike, nothing keeps
>decent time anymore. Were there ever AC operated digital clocks that simply
>got their sync from the line?
Most of the LED clock chips with an alarm used in clock radios, from
20-30 years or so ago, used power line cycles. They had a 50/60Hz
configuration input. National Semi MM537x and Sanyo LM8500 series,
and probably some others.
ChrisCoaster
> What's the big deal?
>
> Bill Baka
_________________
I'm not sure who this question is for, but I'll say the "big deal" is
that the general public doesn't care or feel the need for such an
accurate source of the time of day. At least half the population in
total probably think shortwave was something last used on the
Titanic! Let alone know what band WWVB/H broadcasts on.
-CC
~ RHF
Many 'modern' Wall Clocks only have the
Hour Hand and the Minute Hand with 'no'
Second-Hand so the Clock Display is
simply Accurate to the Minute.
Many 'modern' Home and Alarm Clocks
only have the Hour Numbers and the
Minute Numbers with 'no' Second Numbers
and so the Clock Display is simply Accurate
to the Minute.
WHY : No Second-Hand ? or Second Numbers ?
Most People during the Day-and-Night want to
know the Time-of-Day : Have an Idea 'about'
what Time-It-Is -while- Very Few really want or
need-to-know "The Exact Time" Down-to-the-Second.
"Seconds" to Most People is Useless Information.
anyone care to 'second' that ~ RHF
.
Brenda Ann
"Mark Zenier" <mze...@eskimo.com> wrote in message
news:h8r2h...@enews2.newsguy.com...
Ah, yes. Now I remember those. It had been so long I had forgotten about
them. They should go back to those, at least use them as the primary source
with the crystal controlled garbage as backup only. Remember when crystal
control used to mean excellent frequency control and stability?
Brenda Ann
WWVB is a whole different beast from WWV/WWVH. :) I never had a use for or a
way to tune into WWVB until after I moved out of range. :)
ChrisCoaster
wrote:
>
> WWVB is a whole different beast from WWV/WWVH. :) I never had a use for or a
> way to tune into WWVB until after I moved out of range. :)
Actually the only difference between VH and VB is the frequencies VB
is carried on - down where the whales are listening. :) But it's the
same thing - tick tones and minute and hourly beeps.
-CC
Brenda Ann
WWVB has digital information and no voice announcements. All binary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB
Brenda Ann
"Bob Dobbs" <chupa...@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:4ab1aff9.1468062@chupacabra...
> Brenda Ann wrote:
>>Remember when crystal
>>control used to mean excellent frequency control and stability?
>
> breakthrough, such that 'quartz' became a buzzword of quality.
> Back in the early 60s I dreamt for a quartz watch like the kind I threw
> so many away when I started to get the solar atomic versions.
Yes, at one time, quartz watches used to be the mark of excellence, but,
like everything else, when they went to mega-mass production, the quality
control went to hell. Now, if you get a good mechanical watch from the days
of yore, there's a good chance it's considerably more accurate.
~ RHF
wrote:
> "Bob Dobbs" <chupaca...@operamail.com> wrote in message
The Bulova "Accutron" was my first 'electronic'
Wristwatch and it still had 3-Hands H:M:S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accutron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf_fn3IgawY
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects/time_measurement/1963-306.aspx
.
dave
The schedules are significantly different. Plus WWVB has a chic
announcer, whereas WWV is a dude.
dave
tune into in the middle of the night.
dxAce
dave wrote:
No, it's WWVH that has the woman announcer. WWVB has no announcer.
dxAce
Michigan
USA
Bill Baka
That is why I still wear a Casio from 1981. It won't break and it keeps
time to about 5 seconds a month. 4 battery chances, 4 wrist straps, and
it keeps on going. I have even taken it diving (free air, about 25 feet)
and fallen off my boat many times (mostly planned).
It ain't broke so why buy a Chinese junker. Mine says proudly "Made in
Japan"
Bill Baka
Bill Baka
It was a response to someone who just had to have the time to a few
milliseconds, for whatever reason.
I didn't ask the question.
Bill Baka
D. Peter Maus
In 84, I bought a quartz watch at Wal-Mart for $4. It kept
perfect time. I set it twice a year, at the change, and that was it.
My house got robbed in '87. They took it. Damn.
Today, I wear an automatic mechanical Seiko. Not quite as
accurate, but it never needs batteries, keeps excellent time, and I
can read it in the dark without my glasses.
Interesting how things come around.
Bill Baka
ones to buy, before this "Made in *Communist* China junk we are
saturated with.
Thank you China mart.
Bill Baka
ChrisCoaster
> D. Peter Maus wrote:
> > On 9/17/09 10:38 , Bill Baka wrote:
> >> Brenda Ann wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
____________________
Don't blame China - blame the American and European (all Western)
companies that out-sourced their manufacturing to Mexico(30 years ago)
and China(last 10 years) to save money and increase profits so that
the few at the top could live more richly.
China(and Mexico and Korea) just gladly accepted the new jobs into
their economy! It is those executive decisions that destroyed the
greatest Middle-class the galaxy has ever known. :.(..
-CC
Brenda Ann
____________________
Don't blame China - blame the American and European (all Western)
companies that out-sourced their manufacturing to Mexico(30 years ago)
and China(last 10 years) to save money and increase profits so that
the few at the top could live more richly.
China(and Mexico and Korea) just gladly accepted the new jobs into
their economy! It is those executive decisions that destroyed the
greatest Middle-class the galaxy has ever known. :.(..
-CC
The middle class isn't gone.. it's just moved from the US to Korea. The
standard of living over here has increased exponentially since the mid 70's.
ChrisCoaster
wrote:
> The middle class isn't gone.. it's just moved from the US to Korea. The
> standard of living over here has increased exponentially since the mid 70's.
________________
Again, thanks to short-sighted decisions of Western CEOs and business
leaders, and the politicians who accepted their donations!
-CC
Bill Baka
> On Sep 17, 4:15 pm, Bill Baka <bb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Bill Baka- Hide quoted text -
> ____________________
> Don't blame China - blame the American and European (all Western)
> companies that out-sourced their manufacturing to Mexico(30 years ago)
> and China(last 10 years) to save money and increase profits so that
> the few at the top could live more richly.
I am not blaming China but rather the American entity know as
*cheapskates* who would give our county away like they have done.
Carter and Reagan should have found some way to tax and level the field.
The Bushes never had a clue and Obama is so overwhelmed he may not get a
chance to get something in before China start yelling "Protectionism".
> China(and Mexico and Korea) just gladly accepted the new jobs into
> their economy! It is those executive decisions that destroyed the
> greatest Middle-class the galaxy has ever known. :.(..
>
> -CC
Agreed.
Bill Baka
~ RHF
> D. Peter Maus wrote:
> > On 9/17/09 10:38 , Bill Baka wrote:
> >> Brenda Ann wrote:
-
- Bill Baka
That's Great-Wall-of-China-Mart
http://www.americansongwriter.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/walmart.jpg
Always thought that the "Wal*Mart" Logo
Branding should have featured a Red[*]Star
as Truth in Advertising.
http://www.underconsideration.com/brandnew/archives/walmart_logo_history.gif
.
.
~ RHF
A National Sales Tax that is Levied on both
Domestic and Foreign Goods transfers the
Tax Burden from Incomes Charged-Off on
Only Domestic Goods and Distributes it
Equally on All Goods both Foreign and
Domestic.
Eliminate the Income Tax on Individuals
making up-to $200K and Replace it with
a National Sales Tax ~20%.
Flat Income Tax of ~40% on all Individual
Incomes over $200K and No Deductions [.]
.
.
dave
~ RHF
- Exempt food and drugs?
no, No. NO ! Exemptions :
1st - You Earn Your Money {Income}
2nd - You Pay Your Taxes {Payroll Taxes}
3rd - With What's Left : You Buy Your Food
Result Today All Your Food, Water and
Air to Life is Already TAXED.
Illegal Drugs should be Double Taxes to Pay for
the Law Enforcement aspects and the Pre-Burial
{Medical} Costs of the Drug Abusers {Addicts}.
WHY a Higher Flat Income Tax for 'those' Earning
more than $200K because with a Flat National
Sales Tax System beyond the Normal Day-to-Day
Living Expenses the Rich Wealth High Income
Earners Don't Pay their Fair-Share of the Cost
of a Society.
idtars ~ RHF
.
Steve R.
"Bill Baka" <bb...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:h8tl5l$dh4$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Still using a 1905 Waltham pocket watch. Time keeping is good enough for a
retired person.
Steve R.
Steve R.
~ RHF
> "Bill Baka" <bb...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:h8tl5l$dh4$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
> > Brenda Ann wrote:
> >>news:4ab1aff9.1468062@chupacabra...
> >>> Brenda Ann wrote:
> >>>> Remember when crystal
> >>>> control used to mean excellent frequency control and stability?
> >>> Compared to mechanical escapement devices it was an amazing
> >>> breakthrough, such that 'quartz' became a buzzword of quality.
> >>> Back in the early 60s I dreamt for a quartz watch like the kind I threw
> >>> so many away when I started to get the solar atomic versions.
>
> >> Yes, at one time, quartz watches used to be the mark of excellence, but,
> >> like everything else, when they went to mega-mass production, the quality
> >> control went to hell. Now, if you get a good mechanical watch from the
> >> days of yore, there's a good chance it's considerably more accurate.
>
> > Yeah,
> > That is why I still wear a Casio from 1981. It won't break and it keeps
> > time to about 5 seconds a month. 4 battery chances, 4 wrist straps, and it
> > keeps on going. I have even taken it diving (free air, about 25 feet) and
> > fallen off my boat many times (mostly planned).
> > It ain't broke so why buy a Chinese junker. Mine says proudly "Made in
> > Japan"
>
> > Bill Baka
>
- Time keeping is good enough for a retired person.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/29558/29558-h/images/p0412pic1.jpg
- Steve R.
-
- Steve R.
Life is in the Blessing of Living;
and for the Man Who is about Living Life . . .
When He looks up to the Heavens and Sees
the Sun and Blue Sky : It's Day Time
When He looks up to the Heavens and Sees
the Moon and Stars : It's Night Time
Day or Night : Life is in the Blessing of Living
it's time to retire ~ RHF
http://cll.hemmings.com/story_image/51562-500-0.jpg
.
cuh...@webtv.net
doing?
cuhulin
Mark Zenier
It's a very narrowband phase shift and amplitude keyed carrier.
Modulation is at the 1 bit per second rate. Sounds like a wobbly
carrier with some occasional shift in signal strength.
Mark Zenier mze...@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)
Bill Baka
Bill Baka
I still clang the iron skillets together and yell "Made in America."
I get some weird looks but I hope few people get the point.
Bill Baka (American, not Chinese)
Bill Baka
I don't know of anyone making over $200,000 even as a couple who is not
into having kids.
Bill Baka
Brenda Ann
>> - Thank you China mart.
>> -
>> - Bill Baka
>>
>> That's Great-Wall-of-China-Mart
>>
>> http://www.americansongwriter.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/walmart.jpg
>>
>> Always thought that the "Wal*Mart" Logo
>> Branding should have featured a Red[*]Star
>> as Truth in Advertising.
>> http://www.underconsideration.com/brandnew/archives/walmart_logo_history.gif
>> .
>> .
> Those do sound and look about right.
> Bill Baka
>
> I still clang the iron skillets together and yell "Made in America."
> I get some weird looks but I hope few people get the point.
>
> Bill Baka (American, not Chinese)
Wally-World died a sudden death over here. There used to be about 20 stores
in Korea (11 of them in the area around Seoul). They all closed
simultaneously about 5 years ago, bought out by the local E-Mart chain.
Bill Baka
Bill Baka
Art Harris
> >> So pretty much, if one is using the tones from a RELIABLE radio
> >> station, they can count on setting their watch approximately 5-10
> >> seconds ahead(of that station) and probably be very close to WWVB or
> >> WWVH.
>
> > Why not make that 'reliable' station WWV to start with?
>
> WWV at 10.000000 MHz has been my station since 1957 and even though the
> NBS has changed it's name to NIST, WWV remains untouched. Propagation
> delay is on the order of 1000/183,000 miles per second so that leaves
> about 5 milliseconds of error here in the sates.
>
I find that my TV cable box display provides the easiest access to
accurate time.
Art Harris, N2AH
Bill Baka
Hah,
I have had WWV on at the same time as my cable box and found up to 30
seconds difference. Where does the extra time come from?
Bill Baka
D. Peter Maus
Careful what you wish for.
~ RHF
> Brenda Ann wrote:
> > "Bill Baka" <bb...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >news:h93osh$nid$3...@news.eternal-september.org...
> >>> - Thank you China mart.
> >>> -
> >>> - Bill Baka
>
> >>> That's Great-Wall-of-China-Mart
>
> >>>http://www.americansongwriter.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/walmart.jpg
>
> >>> Always thought that the "Wal*Mart" Logo
> >>> Branding should have featured a Red[*]Star
> >>> as Truth in Advertising.
> >>> .
> >>> .
> >> Those do sound and look about right.
> >> Bill Baka
>
> >> I still clang the iron skillets together and yell "Made in America."
> >> I get some weird looks but I hope few people get the point.
>
> >> Bill Baka (American, not Chinese)
>
> > Wally-World died a sudden death over here. There used to be about 20 stores
> > in Korea (11 of them in the area around Seoul). They all closed
> > simultaneously about 5 years ago, bought out by the local E-Mart chain.
>
> Let's hope something comes out of that, like the downfall of China-mart.
>
> Bill Baka
So you would have WalMart close several thousand
Stores world wide and Fire 2 Million Employees.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wal-Mart
Obama-Labor© -aka- CardCheck : The Chinese Way
under heavy pressure from the China [PRC] Government,
Wal-Mart was force to accept a form of Organized
Labor[Union] in China.
-note- Chinese Labor Unions Do Not Negotiate Contracts
but simply Pay Dues to the Chinese Government,
"To Secure the Social Order."
.