X-Force
CitySlicker
EXPORTSRUS wrote in message <19990112201141...@ng124.aol.com>...
:We have had alot of calls and e-mail with the question, do the smaller
units
:have a fan or fans? We spoke to the maker today and the answer is yes.
Great
:design, larger heatsink, and force air cooled.
:
:Thanks, Steve
:http://members.aol.com/cbs313/Index.html
EXPORTSRUS
EXPORTSRUS
You for pointing this out, it has been corrected.
Thanks, Steve
http://members.aol.com/cbs313/Index.html
10-7
EXPORTSRUS wrote in message <19990112201141...@ng124.aol.com>...
dennis W. Ostrowski
>
> Not according to Seans review /??
>
build amplifiers as per specific customer's requests just as you do
at DaveMade.
It is my understanding that this was one of those 'custom order' amps
that was built to the buyer's specifications.
If you direct e-mail me I can tell you who they were custom built for
so you can call and verify it for youself if you wish....
Dennis
#12
10-7
on only during transmit and i want it to operate class c on am. Hopefuly
the bias is regulated , so i can volt the amp Thanks
dennis W. Ostrowski wrote in message <369FDDE7...@lucent.com>...
dennis W. Ostrowski
>
> Oh ok tell them i need a class ab amp for ssb use , but i want it switched
> on only during transmit and i want it to operate class c on am. Hopefuly
> the bias is regulated , so i can volt the amp Thanks
No problem; got it already!
Do you want that in a red case or a blue one?
With a fan or without?
With a meter or without?
And how many do you want?
Dennis
#12
Toll Free
Toll Free
dennis W. Ostrowski wrote in message <369FEE04...@lucent.com>...
Sean
designed box, not a "Ski Special". It was meant as a challenge
to their abilities as builders and designers to see if they could
do it, not you. I don't think that 10-7 doubts that you could do
it Dennis !!! Sean
EXPORTSRUS
anodized case that will be very attractive, as the attractive power output. We
have had several ship out and recieved with total satisfation from the product
to the customer. We would like to thank all that emailed and have purchased
this product also.
We have a new antenna that we will begin to use this coming week and if it
performs as well as it looks, it will be a great antenna. We will be comparing
it to the Stargun Antennas to see if the performance is as good, if not better.
We will let everyone know after 30 days how it compaired.
Thanks, Steve
http://members.aol.com/cbs313/Index.html
XFORCE827
if one of the no necked goons want to speak do now. hehe (151 123)
827 goneeeeeee
XFORCE827
827 GONEEEEEEEEE
10-7
the other guys i am sure off, i have seen them in action first hand . 123
builds a nice amp ,but it has to already be designed.
Sean wrote in message <77p1me$599$1...@news.megsinet.net>...
10-7
http://members.aol.com/davemade1 where you can buy the original for less
money with a 2 year warranty . In stock for immediate delivery , and look
for the new davemade chassis to be hitting the market soon as well ,
Innovative ideas to lead you into the year 2000. good day
EXPORTSRUS wrote in message <19990116020422...@ng119.aol.com>...
EXPORTSRUS
Palomar it is someone that has copied a product. Sure I will say that Davemade
has been around for years and has also been an inovator in design, but others
branch off on there own in time and they do contribute to the cause. Alot of
it is the set-up the competitor has made for the unit they are using. Instead
of being saying that a person copied this or that, why not go to the proving
grounds and do what you do best. Rest assured 10-7 you do know how to set your
system up. Everyone does not want just Davemade, X-Force, SkullCracker and so
on. As for the product being ready to ship it is ready and we have shipped
products out. As for the prices, the Davemade page has changed prices and that
will be up to X-Force to be competitive on the pricing. We were approached to
handle the product and we agreed to do so. Thanks for your interest and yes
again I will say that you do a fine job at the keydowns, we do a fine job in
not being impartial with makers products.
Thanks, Steve
http://members.aol.com/cbs313/Index.html
Robert Piland
55's against . . . a stargun
DaveMade . . . Eve . . . remember that when you go to sleep
Brass
10-7
towards you , you are trying to sell amps .But , this forgery attempt isnt
just a case of someone saying hell i want to copy this particular guys amp.
It should be known how things were done .
EXPORTSRUS wrote in message
<19990116182404...@ng-fs1.aol.com>...
ICECOLDNYC
In article <19990116182404...@ng-fs1.aol.com>, expor...@aol.com
(EXPORTSRUS) writes:
>Everyone does not want just Davemade, X-Force, SkullCracker and so
>on.
Why not these are all great amps!!!
ICE, ICE, AND MORE ICE MR. ICECOLD BIG APPLE TREES JUST GOT DOWN........
EXPORTSRUS
want to carry what works well. The Star Gun would be the antenna to put
against it for everyday use. I will say that if it performs as it looks from
the quality workmanship that has been put forth, it will be another great
antenna.
Thanks, Steve
http://members.aol.com/cbs313/Index.html
ICECOLDNYC
In article <19990117015814...@ng127.aol.com>, expor...@aol.com
(EXPORTSRUS) writes:
>Thats why I stated we would run the antennas and see what happens. We only
>want to carry what works well. The Star Gun would be the antenna to put
>against it for everyday use. I will say that if it performs as it looks from
>the quality workmanship that has been put forth, it will be another great
>antenna.
OK that's cool!! Please post the results of any test like that. Also I think
the stargun antennas are really well made. I also heard that they have better
reception than other antennas. What stargun do you have? Perhaps with this test
you should give us the reflection watts that you get with each amp setup and
antenna... Just a thought!
ICECOLDNYC
In article <LXco2.772$pP1.6...@news2.voicenet.com>, "10-7"
<boyg...@aol.com> writes:
>It should be known how things were done
How were things doen 10-7? Why don't you tell us?
Jerry
Jerry
Sean
do an assembly line and make them more affordable. Sean
>
Jerry wrote in message <36A292...@earthlink.net>...
THE LANDSHARK
The Landshark
--
"Live to ride, ride to live. But you haven't done
either till you've been on a Buell"
98 S3 Thunderbolt powered
83 Honda 1100F
Jerry
road were started from people who worked for ford and then started
their own companys. Guess what....they all had four wheels and a engine
up front. That didn't make them Fords though. Same goes for
amps....just because someone making them now who worked for another
maker, it doesn't make them copies. Besides except for quality and
appearence you can't improve on an amp very much anyways.
Jerry
10-7
didnt have any idea how to build one before they worked for that maker and
is now using exact part values , same design ,same parts suppliers ,
etc. It is more than amps that are being copied it is antenna systems ,
regulators, and whatever else they dont know how to build they copy, And if
you dont think an amp can be improved upon you dont understand them that
well. If it doesnt make it a copy what does it make it?? Now if this amp
faker went out on his own and made his own design who gives a flying fuck
. 6 months or so of employment at a place doesnt make you a rocket
scientist all of a sudden.
Jerry wrote in message <36A2FE...@earthlink.net>...
Wildcat
Kroc, the originator of McDonalds? He went to work for a restaurant and
recognized all the "Business" mistakes they were making. He then took the
basic hamburger and marketed it using different business principles. The
Hamburger was still the Hamburger.
Time will tell who has the "proven" product. When companies go through what
you are going through they usually restratagize and come out to be a
stronger and better company in the end. Look at Chrysler.....they were ready
to close the doors because every other auto manufacturer was killing them. A
car was a car. Then Lee Iaccoca showed the world the definition of the word
MARKETING.
They recognized that there were many buyers out there that wanted a quality
product.....not just a car.
Your amps shouldn't be any different......the buyers are out there by the
thousands........listen to their needs and fulfill them. This is the formula
for success in business....any business.
--
Some people look at what is and ask why................
Other people look at what isn't and ask why not......
.
10-7 wrote in message <6cHo2.920$il1.7...@news3.voicenet.com>...
dennis W. Ostrowski
>
> I think 10-7 meant he wanted it to be an X-Force built and
> designed box, not a "Ski Special". It was meant as a challenge
> to their abilities as builders and designers to see if they could
> do it, not you. I don't think that 10-7 doubts that you could do
> it Dennis !!! Sean
It would not be a 'SKI SPECIAL'.
It would be an 'XFORCE'!
Dan already knows how to do those 'mods' because I had talked to him
long ago about trying to reproduce some Texas Star style amplifiers,
(when they were no longer available to us and it didn't look like they
were going to be coming back), and at that time I explained to him how
those 'features' could be added to his amps..
All I have done recently for Dan was to provide an input circuit that
allows the input swr to stay perfectly flat as the amplifier/modulator
power level is adjusted, while simultaneously increasing the available
drive power from the adjustment network that gets routed to the
input(s) of the device(s) in the amp..
The end result being that for the same amount of drive power from the
radio, the XFORCE amplifier should, (and does), produce more power
output than it did before.
Dan picked up over 10 watts (AVERAGE BIRD WATTS WITH MODULATION
APPLIED) on a 2 pill, as compared to ANY OTHER amp he had run before.
To most folks out here on the newsgroup 10 watts probably does not
sound very significant, but Dave and 10-7 and a few others on this
newsgroup will understand the significance of those numbers.
On that particular amp, it was greater than a 10% improvement in
AVERAGE 'modulated' BIRD WATTS.
If that stage is used as a 'driver' inside a multiple stage amp, the
results could be just as significant!
Dan picked up the prototype Saturday and was going to 'play' with it
for a while to see how it holds up before he gets too excited about
it.
One thing I can say about the circuit is that I have have never seen
any amplifier using that circuit before, and I have seen a lot of
amplifiers!
So if it works out and turns out to be the 'next generation' input
circuit that everyone will copy and use, then I can say I did it
first!
That's the only 'reward' I was looking for out of the deal..
And if others feel it is good enough to copy, I would be 'flattered',
instead of disraught about it being copied.
Only time, and the XFORCE testing, will tell....
As for now, don't call me for info on that input circuit, because
until it is fully tested no information will released (unless it comes
directly from XFORCE).
Dennis
#12
dennis W. Ostrowski
>
> I'll take 10.. Can I get a tester first??
>
> Toll Free
Call XFORCE or EXPORTS-R-US and place the order!
If you need the phone number, call me and I'll give it to you...
Any price quotes would have to come from them, not me, because I have
no idea what any of their amps sell for!
Dennis
#12
dennis W. Ostrowski
>
> Your right Jerry there not Fords but Ford copys , Jerry when a person ,
> didnt have any idea how to build one before they worked for that maker and
> is now using exact part values , same design ,same parts suppliers ,
> etc. It is more than amps that are being copied it is antenna systems ,
> regulators, and whatever else they dont know how to build they copy, And if
> you dont think an amp can be improved upon you dont understand them that
> well. If it doesnt make it a copy what does it make it?? Now if this amp
> faker went out on his own and made his own design who gives a flying fuck
> . 6 months or so of employment at a place doesnt make you a rocket
> scientist all of a sudden.
I have never heard anyone at XFORCE claim to be any more of a
designer than you yourself claim to be 10-7!
At least they (and you) are honest and open about it!
The most important thing to the customer is the END RESULT!
It's what the customer gets for his hard earned dollar that counts!
If the amps both work equally well, and the quality is equal, then
the only difference between the two amps (as far as the customer is
concerned), is how they look, and their price!
If one has a prettier case, a fan, and/or a larger heatsink it may be
worth a little more to that customer.
The competition is going to cause both manufacturers to have to
improve their products and/or lower their prices; both of which are
good for the end users.....
XFORCE does not have Dave as a resource, and admittedly that is a big
obsticle they have to overcome, but they have other 'contacts' all
over the US that they use as resources for design input and
improvement ideas. So maybe the concept of multiple resources is
going to work out better for them in the long run...
Dennis
#12
crackerjack
heard that Dave was having some finacial problems, maybe I'm wrong that's
what heard maybe you can clear it up for me.
ICECOLDNYC wrote in message
<19990116225616...@ngol04.aol.com>...
>
>In article <19990116182404...@ng-fs1.aol.com>,
expor...@aol.com
>(EXPORTSRUS) writes:
>
>>Everyone does not want just Davemade, X-Force, SkullCracker and so
>>on.
>
>Why not these are all great amps!!!
>
10-7
not , work for dave for 6 months and leave with his design and start my own
company, copying anything and everything he makes . If you feel that there
is nothing wrong with this, then i wouldnt want to deal with you in any way
since i would consider you a backstabber , since that is what has happened
here . And as far as there resourses, why go any where else than chicago
i heard you have had input into x force also. Why not make your own
design and they can market it for you , and you can recieve credit. The only
reason the amps would work equally well is a pretty evident it is a direct
copy . Maybe 123 hasnt seen the new amps where the heatsink is quite
larger before .
I see he keeps trying to use that as a selling point .
dennis W. Ostrowski wrote in message <36A39E54...@lucent.com>...
dennis W. Ostrowski
>
> #12, I have never ever claimed to be a rf engineer ,
And I stated that in my second sentence. I said that both you and the
folks at XFORCE were open and honest about the fact that you were not
RF design engineers...
> but then again i did
> not , work for dave for 6 months and leave with his design and start my own
> company, copying anything and everything he makes .
I understand that he left there because he was not able to make a
'living' wage there and had a child to support. He requested a raise
and didn't get it and was given the option to stay 'as he was', or
leave.
He left!
> If you feel that there
> is nothing wrong with this, then I wouldnt want to deal with you in any way
> since i would consider you a backstabber , since that is what has happened
> here.
You know me better than that!.
You know down deep inside that I am no more a 'Backstabber' than you
are, and I would not even think of calling you a 'backstabber'!
I was told that Dave initially gave #123 his 'blessing', figuring
that #123 could never put it all together and make it happen.
That's why I don't see 'anything wrong with this'!
Well Surprise!
Now that he is actually producing a 'viable' product everything is
different?
You say his initial product was an exact copy of a Davemade, and it
might have been, but it will not stay that way for long!
He does not want it to be known as a DaveMade Copy any more than the
folks at Davemade do.
And he is doing everything possible to distinguish his amp as being
unique and different from everyone else's.
> And as far as there resourses, why go any where else than chicago
> i heard you have had input into x force also.
I have had no more 'INPUT' to XFORCE than anyone else has, and a lot
less than most!
With the exception of a modified input circuit that they are testing
now, I have had no direct physical or design input whatsoever to their
product.
I HAVE made suggestions, verbally, but since you said no one at
XFORCE is capable of any design work, or modification of a design,
that must mean I was talking way over their heads and they would have
had no way to 'implement' any of my suggestions.
> Why not make your own
> design and they can market it for you , and you can recieve credit.
They DON'T NEED ME!
That's why!
A new company startup is exciting, and I would love to be a part of
it; but I was not invited to that party!
> The only
> reason the amps would work equally well is a pretty evident, it is a direct
> copy .
Then you and Dave should be flattered!
If I were trying to start an amplifier business I would probably try
to copy the Texas Star Style of amplifier because I believe it was the
best all-round transistor amplifier ever made.
I would not have chosen the Dave Made as the amp to 'copy'. ( I
prefer the term 'emulate' anyway)
You keep saying it (XFORCE) is not nearly as good of an amp, so it
either cannot be a direct copy, or the Dave Made amp they supposedly
copied must not be that good either!
I have heard of others that had supposedly copied the Dave Made
design, but that all died down once you saw that those amps were
really not going to be any serious competition to you.
I have also heard others say that DaveMade is simply a copy of
someone else's amplifier with a splitter and combigner arrangement
right out of a Motorola application note.
I don't believe any of those rumors!
> Maybe 123 hasnt seen the new amps where the heatsink is quite
> larger before .
Then again maybe he is not so quick to copy Dave's designs as accuse
him of being, since he hadn't seen the new amps yet......
And if he hasn't seen Dave's newer amps with larger heatsinks, and
XFORCE already has those features, how can you accuse him of copying?
I must be missing something here!
You say Dave was the first to use that 'construction technique' to
build his amps, but I had seen that technique used tens of years ago
in articles in QST, EDN, and 73 as a quick and dirty BREADBOARDING
technique for putting a prototype audio or RF amplifier together. But
thet construction method was never intended to be a permanent
construct, probably because of concerns about how long the glue could
hold everything together....
You say Dave was the first to use the larger output cores, but I have
seen amps that preceded Dave's that had large output transformers with
large cores in them.
The same holds true for Dave's keying circuit.
And I saw enclosed cases with ducted flow cooling systems on amps
that came from OHIO (Real Deal?) many years before I saw it used on
any DaveMade amp...
So where is that original design?
I have to give Dave lot's of credit for putting it all those
individual pieces together into packages that worked better than any
of those I had mentioned before as being the 'originals'.
And I think he brought the construction quality standards up a whole
bunch from what the typical 'garage quality' construction had been.
I originally recommended his amplifiers to every dealer I knew after
the Texas Star amps were no longer available because I thought his
amplifiers were of a better quality than the Messengers, the TNT's,
the Real Deal's, and all the others that were out there at the time.
Any contacts he made in illinois, and a few in other states, were
probably initiated my me handing out a direct telephone number for
Dave that I was not supposed to have at the time.....
I never dealt with Dave direct, but I did a lot to support him and
his product.....
Does that make me a 'backstabber'?
I think not!
Have a good day,
Dennis
#12
10-7
> I have never heard anyone at XFORCE claim to be any more of a
>designer than you yourself claim to be 10-7!
If i remember correctly last year you openly critizized 123 and 711's
ability to build a amp and complimented my work what has changed .
> At least they (and you) are honest and open about it!
>
> The most important thing to the customer is the END RESULT!
=========================
At whos expense?? Is it screw whom ever along the way as long as the
customer is happy
========================
>
> It's what the customer gets for his hard earned dollar that counts!
==========================================================
And i guess that what dave gets for his hard earned time of research and
testing is what doesnt count
================================================================
>
> If the amps both work equally well, and the quality is equal, then
>the only difference between the two amps (as far as the customer is
>concerned), is how they look, and their price!
===================================================================
That would be if they worked equally well ,
=============================================
> If one has a prettier case, a fan, and/or a larger heatsink it may be
>worth a little more to that customer.
==============================================================
I love prettier cases thats what won at the last keydown for me my case was
so ugly it scared the shit out of the others , all davemades have fans ,
except the m80/m40 and if the customer wants a fan on it then it should be
worth a little more to him correct . Please Explain this large heatsink so
we can compare apples
===============================================================
>
> The competition is going to cause both manufacturers to have to
>improve their products and/or lower their prices; both of which are
>good for the end users.....
======================================================================
Or go out of business , dave is always improving designs because he can.
========================================
> XFORCE does not have Dave as a resource, and admittedly that is a big
>obsticle they have to overcome, but they have other 'contacts' all
>over the US that they use as resources for design input and
>improvement ideas. So maybe the concept of multiple resources is
>going to work out better for them in the long run...
========================================================
Not true , Dave is 95 % of the resource already , x force is using his
design , so I guess dave has a hand in x force also .. Thats exactly what i
want my technican to have to call someone across town or across country to
get help to fix my amp since they cant. Multiple resources what a concept
,that means they are trying to be someone they are not .
This is getting old , you can back your hometown boys #12, this is your
chance at getting some recognition too, design engineer for x force . what
will the excuse be at maywood this year ??
>Dennis
>
>#12
dennis W. Ostrowski
>
> > I have never heard anyone at XFORCE claim to be any more of a
> >designer than you yourself claim to be 10-7!
>
> If i remember correctly last year you openly critizized 123 and 711's
> ability to build a amp and complimented my work what has changed .
If I remember my words correctly, I said that I would rather have an
amplifier built by you, Concrete man, than one built by 711, Rock and
Roll, 123, or anyone else over there at DaveMade because I thought you
did a cleaner and more consistently accurate job of putting them
together than they did.
The XFORCE stuff I have seen is as good in quality of construction as
what I had seen from you in the past, so it must be pretty high
quality.
I guess practice makes perfect....
> > The most important thing to the customer is the END RESULT!
> =========================
> At whos expense?? Is it screw whom ever along the way as long as the
> customer is happy
> ========================
I hope not!
> > It's what the customer gets for his hard earned dollar that counts!
> ==========================================================
> And i guess that what dave gets for his hard earned time of research and
> testing is what doesnt count
> ================================================================
Where did I ever say that?
But you must admit that it happens every day in this country, that
the guys with the better idea and/or better product walk away with all
the marbles at the end of the day.....
That's just a hard fact of doing business in the USA.....
I do not condone 'stealing' anyone's design, but surely if that's all
they had to build on was a copy of a design, then they are only
spinning their wheels and will go nowhere in the future because they
do not have 'access' to anything DaveMade any longer, so they are no
threat to you and you do need to take them so seriously!
They have no more information than what I could obtain if I simply
bought a Davemade amp and opened it up and looked at it!
If you wanted to protect your design you should have used an etched
circuit board and not made the amp so simple to build and to copy!
> > If the amps both work equally well, and the quality is equal, then
> >the only difference between the two amps (as far as the customer is
> >concerned), is how they look, and their price!
>
> ===================================================================
> That would be if they worked equally well ,
> =============================================
Correct.
I have no reason to believe otherwise.
You won in Maywood because you had a beam on your mobile and Dan
didn't!
I didn't see you trying to go against Danny using a similar antenna
system...
> > If one has a prettier case, a fan, and/or a larger heatsink it may be
> >worth a little more to that customer.
> ==============================================================
> I love prettier cases thats what won at the last keydown for me my case was
> so ugly it scared the shit out of the others , all davemades have fans ,
> except the m80/m40 and if the customer wants a fan on it then it should be
> worth a little more to him correct . Please Explain this large heatsink so
> we can compare apples
> ===============================================================
People buy pretty cases. That's why Dave's amps sell better than some
others!
I was impressed by the way the case looked and the quality of it's
construction.
It would have been one of the reasons that I would have picked the
Davemade if I were buying an amp.
I'm not familiar with your entire line-up of amps, but I know the M40
and M80 have cooling problems that can be cured by a fan that they
don't come with (unless you special order them), and the XFORCE
equivalent amps that I have seen have all had fans on them.
I can't explain the large heatsink details because I was not the one
that originally brought that up.
I believe Sean mentioned the overly large heatsink and case in his
report on the XFORCE 2-pill....
> > The competition is going to cause both manufacturers to have to
> >improve their products and/or lower their prices; both of which are
> >good for the end users.....
> ======================================================================
> Or go out of business , dave is always improving designs because he can.
> ========================================
That is a fact of life when doing business in the good old US of A!
Accept it!
If Dave is continuously improving his designs and XFORCE is incapable
of doing that, then XFORCE has no chance of success and you should
quit worrying about them.
> > XFORCE does not have Dave as a resource, and admittedly that is a big
> >obsticle they have to overcome, but they have other 'contacts' all
> >over the US that they use as resources for design input and
> >improvement ideas. So maybe the concept of multiple resources is
> >going to work out better for them in the long run...
> ========================================================
> Not true , Dave is 95 % of the resource already
I don't believe that is true.
> , x force is using his
> design ,
Is it really Dave's design?
Can you prove it?
> so I guess dave has a hand in x force also ..
Dave's hand was as a MENTOR.
I have played that role myself many times and never complained when a
student used something he learned from me!
I would consider that being 'petty' and not worth pursuing...
> Thats exactly what i
> want my technican to have to call someone across town or across country to
> get help to fix my amp since they cant.
Who says they can't FIX an amp?
I believe 123 has 'fixed' more amps than Dave or you have if you just
want to do the numbers.....
Why do you believe it takes some special superhuman skills or talent
to repair an amp?
I can talk any decent electronic technician, even one that has never
even seen an amp before, through a repair over the phone!
> Multiple resources what a concept
> ,that means they are trying to be someone they are not .
That means that they are willing to accept constructive input from
multiple sources.
I believe that is always going to provide more accurate information
than single sourced information!
> This is getting old , you can back your hometown boys #12,
They are not my hometown boys.
They are my homestate boys, but that does not automatically mean I
have to support them.
> this is your
> chance at getting some recognition too, design engineer for x force .
I thought you just said that Dave was the design engineer for
XFORCE....
I think you believe that there is a lot going on between XFORCE and
myself that simply isn't!
If you don't believe me, call Sean to verify it!
> what
> will the excuse be at maywood this year ??
Now that sounds like a 'challenge'.
I haven't been 'involved' with XFORCE so far other than an input
circuit that they may not even use, but if that is a challenge, then
maybe I should get a lot more involved.... just to see what will
happen in Maywood.....
I would rather not because I am already so far behind in my normal
repair work due to the lost time battling the snow we have had here.
But if you are serious about that challenge you know I will have to
take it; and then I WOULD have to get much more deeply involved with
the XFORCE amp.
That's assuming that Dan and Carl would even LET me!!!!!
I don't want to be constantly fighting with you over this, but I just
hate to see the new guy on the block getting beat up before he has
even had his chance.
I backed Dave when he was getting started, (although he did not know
it at the time), for the same reasons that I am backing XFORCE right
now.
I believe the little guy should have a chance!
If everything you say about them and the XFORCE product is true, I
can't understand why you would be so concerned about their product
anyway.
It should not pose any real threat of any kind to you or to Dave.....
Have a good day!
Dennis
#12
Toll Free
that well
The only reason that I am getting involved in this thread is because the
thread is so boring...
But, if your comment is correct, then what can be improved upon on the
design of Dave's?
Toll Free
Toll Free
good laugh!
10-7 wrote in message ...
>
>
>
>> I have never heard anyone at XFORCE claim to be any more of a
>>designer than you yourself claim to be 10-7!
>
>
>If i remember correctly last year you openly critizized 123 and 711's
>ability to build a amp and complimented my work what has changed .
>
Not a thing... I can probably dig up the old post if I looked through my
tapes hard enough... What was said that out of all the people working for
Dave is that you built the best box. It was not knocking anyone, just
stating that you where the best... and I never heard Dennis complain about
it now, either.
>> At least they (and you) are honest and open about it!
>
>>
>> The most important thing to the customer is the END RESULT!
>=========================
>At whos expense?? Is it screw whom ever along the way as long as the
>customer is happy
>========================
Who is screwing whom?? As far as I knew this was America, and everyone
builds off other peoples designs... Are you saying that Dave has a patent
on the no bias amplifier?
>>
>> It's what the customer gets for his hard earned dollar that counts!
>==========================================================
>And i guess that what dave gets for his hard earned time of research and
>testing is what doesnt count
>================================================================
What Dave gets is the recognition that he was one of the innovators in the
market and business..... that and the paycheck every week. He (and you)
should need no more than that, and Dave should be happy about an ego boost
because someone is copying his design.
>
>>
>> If the amps both work equally well, and the quality is equal, then
>>the only difference between the two amps (as far as the customer is
>>concerned), is how they look, and their price!
>
>===================================================================
>That would be if they worked equally well ,
>=============================================
Who is to say whether they do or not?
>
>> If one has a prettier case, a fan, and/or a larger heatsink it may be
>>worth a little more to that customer.
>==============================================================
>I love prettier cases thats what won at the last keydown for me my case
was
>so ugly it scared the shit out of the others , all davemades have fans ,
>except the m80/m40 and if the customer wants a fan on it then it should be
>worth a little more to him correct . Please Explain this large heatsink so
>we can compare apples
>===============================================================
It has been reported that an X-Force amplifier of comparable wattage
capabilities as the dave product has a larger heat sink... That means a
lot... If they both do the same watts, even a moron would want one that ran
cooler..... A hot heat sink is not what wins a keydown!
>
>
>>
>> The competition is going to cause both manufacturers to have to
>>improve their products and/or lower their prices; both of which are
>>good for the end users.....
>======================================================================
>Or go out of business , dave is always improving designs because he
can.
>========================================
Once again, what is the point here? Dave should be happy that someone is
copying him.. That means he has a decent product! And you should be happy
that you are the one that people use for comparison for quality of
workmanship in the DaveMade barn!
>> XFORCE does not have Dave as a resource, and admittedly that is a big
>>obsticle they have to overcome, but they have other 'contacts' all
>>over the US that they use as resources for design input and
>>improvement ideas. So maybe the concept of multiple resources is
>>going to work out better for them in the long run...
>========================================================
>Not true , Dave is 95 % of the resource already , x force is using his
>design , so I guess dave has a hand in x force also .. Thats exactly what i
>want my technican to have to call someone across town or across country to
>get help to fix my amp since they cant. Multiple resources what a concept
>,that means they are trying to be someone they are not .
That would also mean that Dave is a theif and got lucky with his wattage
numbers. I have quite a few zero bias amplifiers that are built a HELL of a
lot better than Daves design that will do better numbers (with the same
devices in them). The trick to them was a trick that obviously Dave never
heard about... SHUNT FEEDING the box... These are all on an etched PC
board which improves the reliability of the circuit over the "copper board"
type.... But, Dave is one of the big players in the arena now, and I guess
that makes him the inventor???
>
>This is getting old , you can back your hometown boys #12, this is your
>chance at getting some recognition too, design engineer for x force . what
>will the excuse be at maywood this year ??
>
It will be interesting... I happen to know of another manufacturer that
just may be intering the keydown circuit this year... One that has been
around for quite a while, but is new to the keydown scene... #12 may know
who I am talking about, but that is as far as it goes.
10-7, I rarely argue with you about anything... And I understand your
loyalty.... Hell, I am still loyal to Messenger even though they have gone
to hell in a handbasket... But, there comes a point where it has to end,
and Dave was never an innovator to the zero bias amplifier.... Helge
Grandberg was around a lot longer than Dave has been.... Dave was just the
first to make it affordable and easy to get.
Just my two cents worth.
Toll Free
>
>
>
>
>>Dennis
>>
>>#12
>
>
Toll Free
If 10-7 will send me an amplifier, production run, I will test it, BUT only
if 123 sends me one of his amps. I want the same transistors and a
production run of X-Force, too.
I will take camera snapshots, wattmeter video feeds, pictures of the stuff,
etc., etc., etc., and put it up for all to see, but only after the
manufacturer has seen them first... BUT, even if they are not happy with
the results, they will still stand (barring anything tremendous happening,
like a box arriving with a bad pill in it). If something like that happens,
they will have time to get the box back or send another for testing.
All test will be put into a dummy load, all amps driven by a Kenwood
TS440SAT, both with the tuner functioning and without it (to test for bad
input impedances, reactance at the input, etc).
If the manufacturers will do this, then they can complain. If the boxes
look identical, then there will be proof on the internet, in the form of
pictures and videos... If not, then we (the internet crowd) will see who
really has the REAL copy.
Also, if anyone else wants into this (Real Deal, Cookie, etc), then they are
more than welcome to enter in, and there results will be made public also.
There will be no holding back, no keeping results from the pages, etc.
So, the challenge has been posted... Who will be the first to come up and
take the initiative to do it?
Toll Free
Toll Free
I want the ones that you are going to be building.... Or did I read that
post to 10-7 wrong? hehehehehe
Toll Free
dennis W. Ostrowski wrote in message <36A3811F...@lucent.com>...
Bill Eitner
>
> 10-7, I rarely argue with you about anything... And I understand your
> loyalty.... Hell, I am still loyal to Messenger even though they have gone
> to hell in a handbasket...
You can say that again.
> But, there comes a point where it has to end,
> and Dave was never an innovator to the zero bias amplifier.... Helge
> Grandberg was around a lot longer than Dave has been.... Dave was just the
> first to make it affordable and easy to get.
When was that?
Dennis was wondering (skeptical) as to whether Helge and
Motorola was first, or whether some CB amp manufacturer was
the first to implement stripline technology. So far I've
tracked Helge's work on stripline back to 1972. Since I'm
on the west coast I don't have info as to whether ANY CB amp
manufacturer was the first to implement stripline technology.
As far back as I can go is the original Palomar in late 1975.
They were building early Class C boxes for sale in early 1976.
That's the earliest solid proof I can come up with. In my
experience, in 1972 NO ONE in high power CB was even considering
transistors as a relevant option.
So, my question is: when did Dave really get into it? Was it
before or after 1972? For that matter who else even thought
seriously about transistors before 1976?
> Just my two cents worth.
>
> Toll Free
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>Dennis
> >>
> >>#12
> >
> >
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-=[Bill Eitner]=-
Link to AM Tutor and rec.radio.cb FAQs:
http://home.earthlink.net/~kd6tas/
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Philip de Cadenet
>Joe & the Hurricane 350 had a better idea back in the very early
>70's (at least).
Were these marketed with a N.Y. address stamped somewhere on the
chassis? Other models available such as Storm, Tornado or whatever.
These made there way to us here in England befor CB was legalised in 81.
They were, a serious pile of S..t!
I wish I could of sent them all back to N.Y.:-) but it was a local CB
dealer/wholesaler that brought them into the UK.
Around this time I imported some Varmints, including my first ever
8-pill, SSL-600 which knocked spots off any of the Hurricanes.
However, I'm aware many of you guy's do not have fond memories of Abe's
amp's.
Oh for nostalgia.
Phil / UK
> I have one dated from 1974 and I know that they
>were made before that. As I have stated here many times before,
>the Hurricane 350 is the Grand Daddy of all "competition amps".
>No bias, huge output transformers to minimize saturation and
>bigger combiners than what most current production amps use
>nowadays. They also had variable RX preamps and variable SSB
>delay with a detachable remote control head. Their only problem
>was lack of heatsinking. They were only about 20 years ahead of
>their time !!! Sean
>>
>Bill Eitner wrote in message <36A40B...@earthlink.net>...
>>Toll Free wrote:
>>>
>>> 10-7, I rarely argue with you about anything... And I
>understand your
>>> loyalty.... Hell, I am still loyal to Messenger even though
>they have gone
>>> to hell in a handbasket...
>>
>> You can say that again.
>>
>>> But, there comes a point where it has to end,
>>> and Dave was never an innovator to the zero bias amplifier....
>Helge
>>> Grandberg was around a lot longer than Dave has been.... Dave
>was just the
>>> first to make it affordable and easy to get.
>>
>> When was that?
>>
>> Dennis was wondering (skeptical) as to whether Helge and
>> Motorola was first, or whether some CB amp manufacturer was
>> the first to implement stripline technology. So far I've
>> tracked Helge's work on stripline back to 1972. Since I'm
>> on the west coast I don't have info as to whether ANY CB amp
>> manufacturer was the first to implement stripline technology.
>> As far back as I can go is the original Palomar in late 1975.
>> They were building early Class C boxes for sale in early 1976.
>> That's the earliest solid proof I can come up with. In my
>> experience, in 1972 NO ONE in high power CB was even
>considering
>> transistors as a relevant option.
>>
>> So, my question is: when did Dave really get into it? Was it
>> before or after 1972? For that matter who else even thought
>> seriously about transistors before 1976?
>>
>>> Just my two cents worth.
>>>
>>> Toll Free
>>>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>Dennis
>>> >>
>>> >>#12
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>>--
>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>---
>> -=[Bill Eitner]=-
>>
>>Link to AM Tutor and rec.radio.cb FAQs:
>>http://home.earthlink.net/~kd6tas/
>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>---
>>
>
>
http://www.bigradios.com - My favourite site.
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb285053 - My Cordless Phone Message Board.
Sean
10-7 had. As far as the competition at Maywood goes, 10-7 may
have been beaten (by a cheater the one time), but he never had to
shut down in the middle of the key because he blew up. In the
one class that 10-7 didn't win (4 pill), it was won by one of
123's best friends, 711. For the record, 711 was running a Dave
Made box and still is as far as I know. I never stated that the
X-Force had a bigger heatsink, just a taller case. Please don't
get this wrong guys, I'm not playing ANY favorites here as the
outcome of this really doesn't affect me one way or the other.
I'm just trying to keep the facts straight. Sean
>
dennis W. Ostrowski wrote in message
XFORCE827
i think it matters to the most so if dave would like to copy from his e-mail
then he will do so.
if not then it is just between him his crew and i. thank you all and have
whatever kind of day you want.
827 goneeeeeeee
Sean
were made before that. As I have stated here many times before,
the Hurricane 350 is the Grand Daddy of all "competition amps".
No bias, huge output transformers to minimize saturation and
bigger combiners than what most current production amps use
nowadays. They also had variable RX preamps and variable SSB
delay with a detachable remote control head. Their only problem
was lack of heatsinking. They were only about 20 years ahead of
their time !!! Sean
>
Bill Eitner wrote in message <36A40B...@earthlink.net>...
>Toll Free wrote:
>>
understand your
>> loyalty.... Hell, I am still loyal to Messenger even though
they have gone
>> to hell in a handbasket...
>
>
>> and Dave was never an innovator to the zero bias amplifier....
Helge
>> Grandberg was around a lot longer than Dave has been.... Dave
was just the
>> first to make it affordable and easy to get.
>
>
> Dennis was wondering (skeptical) as to whether Helge and
> Motorola was first, or whether some CB amp manufacturer was
> the first to implement stripline technology. So far I've
> tracked Helge's work on stripline back to 1972. Since I'm
> on the west coast I don't have info as to whether ANY CB amp
> manufacturer was the first to implement stripline technology.
> As far back as I can go is the original Palomar in late 1975.
> They were building early Class C boxes for sale in early 1976.
> That's the earliest solid proof I can come up with. In my
> experience, in 1972 NO ONE in high power CB was even
considering
> transistors as a relevant option.
>
> So, my question is: when did Dave really get into it? Was it
> before or after 1972? For that matter who else even thought
> seriously about transistors before 1976?
>
>>
>> Toll Free
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>Dennis
>> >>
>> >>#12
>> >
>> >
>
10-7
>what I had seen from you in the past, so it must be pretty high
>quality.
===========================================
123 and myself were always trying to do the best we could , he also made a
nice amp , I never said he didnt do nice work because I would be lieing
==============================================>>
> I do not condone 'stealing' anyone's design, but surely if that's all
>they had to build on was a copy of a design, then they are only
>spinning their wheels and will go nowhere in the future because they
>do not have 'access' to anything DaveMade any longer, so they are no
>threat to you and you do need to take them so seriously!
===========================================================================
No, they dont need access to any of daves products to continue , most of
daves products are still ahead of the pack , so building his old stuff
would still put you them ahead . They were there and were shown how things
were done , It is not a point about being a threat it is about "Integrity
", its about calling daves customers and trying to push thier products
on them and using the claim that he used to work for dave , it is about him
trying to get one of daves 'former friends 350z boxes to work so they can
duplicate it , maybe you dont hear everything that goes on. It is about
copying daves competiton regulators and lieing that they never did so when
they were caught red handed , The price sheet is even a damn clone , daves
printer made an error on the 1.2kw amps ratings(2.7kw should read 2,4 kw )
and they duplicated it with the error intact. if i started a business I
would want to be as different as I could .
===============================================================
>
> They have no more information than what I could obtain if I simply
>bought a Davemade amp and opened it up and looked at it!
=============================================================
Not true, they were there , and know where and how to get certain items
makes it quite easier , someone has done the legwork already , dave
removes part numbers on certain chips so they arent easily duplicated. now
he has part numbers for certain items because he was trusted , they
thought he was sincere in being a friend , whom he lived with , and not
about helping himself in the end.
====================================================================
> You won in Maywood because you had a beam on your mobile and Dan
>didn't!
============================================================================
======
And the simple fact that my amps held togther and i didnt blow up like they
did , i used the beam in Wash Dc I won the 2 pill class and lost after a
few keys in the 4 and 8 pill class both the guys who beat me used 2 antennas
just like danny , One had a davemade 8 pill . So my antenna system could be
overcome by a 2 antenna system , but since he was whipped by the antenna
system, they copied it and is now selling them like he designed it, again
thats bullshit
======================================================================
> I didn't see you trying to go against Danny using a similar antenna
>system...
============================================================================
======
Why should I , it is called technology It is called catch me if you can . I
was there to win and i won soundly . He had the reputation for winning
keydowns not me, he was the defending champ , that was the first "
sanctioned" keydown I have competed in. He took a davemade there the year
before and cleaned up .
==========================================================================
> If Dave is continuously improving his designs and XFORCE is incapable
>of doing that, then XFORCE has no chance of success and you should
>quit worrying about them.
>
> Is it really Dave's design?
> Can you prove it?
=================================================
You prove to me that it is not, show me another amp that uses the tuning as
daves does , beside thex force now.
===================================================================
> I have played that role myself many times and never complained when a
>student used something he learned from me!
==================================================================
But was it for monetary gain and was it being used against you ??
==================================================
> Who says they can't FIX an amp?
=========================================================================
You forget i have worked with him, I have seen first hand what i feel he is
capable of , I didnt say he couldnt fix them at all. I certainly dont think
he fully understands what certain parts will do in a circuit , and how or
why they can be replaced with another . Remember the .01 caps that were
blown ??
=======================================================================
>
> I believe 123 has 'fixed' more amps than Dave or you have if you just
>want to do the numbers.....
============================================================================
========
I doubt that very seriously dave has been at this a long time , dont count
me . if 123 fixed many amps they were probably his own since he blew them
up.
============================================================================
=
> Why do you believe it takes some special superhuman skills or talent
>to repair an amp?
============================================================================
====
It takes a certain amount of electronic aptitude , most anyone can repair
pills etc , when there is a problem that need to be trouble shooted thats
were you seperate a technician from a parts replacer , I am not talking
just about amps . There are 2 regulators of daves design that have been
copied and built by x force , they arent working now and 123 cant fix
them , why because he doesnt understand how they work. Because it was a copy
============================================================================
>
> I can talk any decent electronic technician, even one that has never
>even seen an amp before, through a repair over the phone!
============================================================================
======
thats because you have the ability to trouble shoot you know how and what
is supposed to happen in a circuit but , can the decent tech fix it with
out your help. Nah!
============================================================================
=
> They are my homestate boys, but that does not automatically mean I
>have to support them.
>
>> this is your
>> chance at getting some recognition too, design engineer for x force .
>
> I thought you just said that Dave was the design engineer for
>XFORCE....
============================================================================
===
>
> Now that sounds like a 'challenge'.
========================================================================
I love challanges , I am very very competitive. Maywood this year was a
challange for me
========================================================================
> I haven't been 'involved' with XFORCE so far other than an input
>circuit that they may not even use, but if that is a challenge, then
>maybe I should get a lot more involved.... just to see what will
>happen in Maywood.....
>
> I backed Dave when he was getting started, (although he did not know
>it at the time), for the same reasons that I am backing XFORCE right
>now.
> I believe the little guy should have a chance!
================================================================
I beleive the little guy should have a chance but not at someone elses
expense , using there own products
I would firmly back him , i would give him much credit , When dan was out
here we were friends and hung out many times drinking , talking , screwingt
around etc but there was always talk of him leaving and taking this new
found info with him
============================================================================
>
> If everything you say about them and the XFORCE product is true, I
>can't understand why you would be so concerned about their product
>anyway.
============================================================================
========
What i say about x force is that it is daves design from day 1, Again
amplifiers are not the only product here now i am sure they are trying to
and are going to make as many changes , no matter how small or big to get
rid of the stigma of being a dave clone, . If he didnt make any changes it
would be the same and perform the same , not many amps can claim they
perform the same as davemade
============================================================================
===
#12 , I think we both have said what we wanted to and I am tired of giving
x force more air time than they deserve . i guess we shall all wait and see
what transpires. i dont want to ruin any friendships over this with anyone I
think most know how i feel .
Cd181
>was lack of heatsinking.
I thought that the whole thing was one big heatsink, or am I thinking of a
different amp.
ICECOLDNYC
In article <781ch9$8b8$1...@news.megsinet.net>, "Sean" <bigf...@megsinet.net>
writes:
>Joe & the Hurricane 350 had a better idea back in the very early
>70's (at least). I have one dated from 1974 and I know that they
>were made before that. As I have stated here many times before,
>the Hurricane 350 is the Grand Daddy of all "competition amps".
>No bias, huge output transformers to minimize saturation and
>bigger combiners than what most current production amps use
>nowadays. They also had variable RX preamps and variable SSB
>delay with a detachable remote control head. Their only problem
>was lack of heatsinking. They were only about 20 years ahead of
>their time !!! Sean
Sean you know I agree with that since we have talked about the good ole
hurricane and it's little brother the Typhoon. Also the much bigger Whirlwind.
Sean
for the Hurricane 350. It is the only one that he got right
(well, most of it !!! ). It is still a desirable model nowadays.
As for your 8 pill beating a Hurricane, I should hope so. 8
pills against 4 shouldn't be a chore !!!! Sean
>
Philip de Cadenet wrote in message ...
>Sean,
>
>>Joe & the Hurricane 350 had a better idea back in the very
early
>>70's (at least).
>chassis? Other models available such as Storm, Tornado or
whatever.
>These made there way to us here in England befor CB was
legalised in 81.
>They were, a serious pile of S..t!
>I wish I could of sent them all back to N.Y.:-) but it was a
local CB
>dealer/wholesaler that brought them into the UK.
>Around this time I imported some Varmints, including my first
ever
>8-pill, SSL-600 which knocked spots off any of the Hurricanes.
>However, I'm aware many of you guy's do not have fond memories
of Abe's
>amp's.
>
>Oh for nostalgia.
>
>Phil / UK
>>were made before that. As I have stated here many times
before,
>>the Hurricane 350 is the Grand Daddy of all "competition amps".
>>No bias, huge output transformers to minimize saturation and
>>bigger combiners than what most current production amps use
>>nowadays. They also had variable RX preamps and variable SSB
>>delay with a detachable remote control head. Their only
problem
>>was lack of heatsinking. They were only about 20 years ahead
of
>>their time !!! Sean
>>>
>>understand your
>>>> loyalty.... Hell, I am still loyal to Messenger even though
>>they have gone
>>>> to hell in a handbasket...
>>>
>>>
>>>> and Dave was never an innovator to the zero bias
amplifier....
>>Helge
>>>> Grandberg was around a lot longer than Dave has been....
Dave
>>was just the
>>>> first to make it affordable and easy to get.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dennis was wondering (skeptical) as to whether Helge and
>>> Motorola was first, or whether some CB amp manufacturer was
>>> the first to implement stripline technology. So far I've
>>> tracked Helge's work on stripline back to 1972. Since I'm
>>> on the west coast I don't have info as to whether ANY CB amp
>>> manufacturer was the first to implement stripline technology.
>>> As far back as I can go is the original Palomar in late 1975.
>>> They were building early Class C boxes for sale in early
1976.
>>> That's the earliest solid proof I can come up with. In my
>>> experience, in 1972 NO ONE in high power CB was even
>>considering
>>> transistors as a relevant option.
>>>
>>> So, my question is: when did Dave really get into it? Was it
>>> before or after 1972? For that matter who else even thought
>>> seriously about transistors before 1976?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Toll Free
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >>Dennis
>>>> >>
>>>> >>#12
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------
--
>>---
>>> -=[Bill Eitner]=-
>>>
>>>Link to AM Tutor and rec.radio.cb FAQs:
>>>http://home.earthlink.net/~kd6tas/
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------
--
Sean
just not a very good one. Since it had no real fins or a way to
propagate the heat away from the source, it just spread out. If
you were really getting on it, it made the whole amp very hot.
Sean
>
Cd181 wrote in message
<19990119110538...@ng106.aol.com>...
>>Their only problem
>>was lack of heatsinking.
>
dennis W. Ostrowski
>
> 123 did have a beam on his suburban, just not as many elements as
> 10-7 had.
How many elements did it have?
> As far as the competition at Maywood goes, 10-7 may
> have been beaten (by a cheater the one time), but he never had to
> shut down in the middle of the key because he blew up.
That was Danny playing volt-it-up!
I believe that if Toll Free, or you were in that suburban the amp
would not have blown up!
I have said many, many, times that Dan had the reputation as being
Mr. GO OR BLOW at the local keydowns around here because he always
took it to the MAX, even when he didn't need it, and when 10-7 showed
up with more antenna elements than Dan had, he psyched Dan out and Dan
tried to stay competitive by volting up more than he normally would
have.
The point I was trying to make is that if Dan had a single antenna,
or one with a reflector or a director, and 10-7 appears with a 5
element beam, we are no longer comparing amplifiers!
> In the
> one class that 10-7 didn't win (4 pill), it was won by one of
> 123's best friends, 711.
That is correct.
Did Dan even compete in that class?
> For the record, 711 was running a Dave
> Made box and still is as far as I know.
I believe that is also correct.
> I never stated that the
> X-Force had a bigger heatsink, just a taller case.
Well I didn't say it had a bigger heatsink because I never saw that
particular model amp.
So I was going on what someone else wrote in one of their posts, and
I thought it was yours because you were the person who did the review
of the amp..
If you didn't make that statement I apologize...
> Please don't
> get this wrong guys, I'm not playing ANY favorites here as the
> outcome of this really doesn't affect me one way or the other.
> I'm just trying to keep the facts straight. Sean
I feel the same way, but no one believes it!
As a matter of fact had I requested that you review the wattage
numbers you had posted for that amp because they sounded a little too
high to me, and I requested you to do a 'reality check' to verify that
there was enough power input from the power supply to support that
high of a power output...
Dennis
#12
dennis W. Ostrowski
> ===========================================
> 123 and myself were always trying to do the best we could , he also made a
> nice amp , I never said he didnt do nice work because I would be lieing
> ==============================================
If I thought you were a liar, this debate would have ended long ago.
I respect your convictions and don't believe you would lie just to
win an argument!
And I believe (or at least I hope) you have that same respect for me.
> ===========================================================================
> No, they dont need access to any of daves products to continue , most of
> daves products are still ahead of the pack , so building his old stuff
> would still put you them ahead . They were there and were shown how things
> were done , It is not a point about being a threat it is about "Integrity
I'm sorry, but if I was planning on opening a restaurant, I would try
to work for a few years at what I thought was the best restaurant in
town before I would try opening one of my own.
That's done all the time; and is a suggested strategy in any business
management classes you may take in college.
> ", its about calling daves customers and trying to push thier products
> on them and using the claim that he used to work for dave ,
I had no knowledge of that and I would not condone it if I did.
> it is about him
> trying to get one of daves 'former friends 350z boxes to work so they can
> duplicate it
Once again I had no knowledge of that and I would not condone it if I
did.
But that just don't make any sense, because they know I can build any
kind of 'tube' unit, (3-500Z?), they want.
>, maybe you dont hear everything that goes on.
I guess not!
> It is about
> copying daves competiton regulators and lieing that they never did so when
> they were caught red handed ,
I had no knowledge of that and I would not condone it if I did.
I did hear that Dave had copied a switching power supply he had
borrowed from someone in Florida and now he is calling it his
design...
Is that true?
I also heard he had copied some solid state plasma generator he had
bought somewhere and was also calling it his own design....
Is that true?
I don't know where all these 'rumors' come from.....
> The price sheet is even a damn clone , daves
> printer made an error on the 1.2kw amps ratings(2.7kw should read 2,4 kw )
> and they duplicated it with the error intact.
I believe that could have happened, because they needed to get out
some price sheets right away.
> if i started a business I
> would want to be as different as I could .
That's you and I, but I can't speak for Dan....
As I understand it, he needed to generate some income fairly quickly
so he could support himself and his son.
It's one thing to be hungry yourself, but it's something entirely
different when your kid is hungry!
Given those circumstances, I don't know what I would have done
myself!
I don't know if I have a right to sit on my high horse and pass
judgment on someone's ethical standards in a situation like that....
> Not true, they were there , and know where and how to get certain items
> makes it quite easier , someone has done the legwork already , dave
> removes part numbers on certain chips so they arent easily duplicated. now
> he has part numbers for certain items because he was trusted , they
> thought he was sincere in being a friend , whom he lived with , and not
> about helping himself in the end.
> ====================================================================
You pay a friend enough money to get his own apartment and send child
support money back home.
You take advantage of someone my providing a place to sleep in lieu
of wages...
> And the simple fact that my amps held togther and i didnt blow up like they
> did
I agree...
I wish Dan had let someone else run his vehicle and amp for those
keydowns!
> , i used the beam in Wash Dc I won the 2 pill class and lost after a
> few keys in the 4 and 8 pill class both the guys who beat me used 2 antennas
> just like danny , One had a davemade 8 pill . So my antenna system could be
> overcome by a 2 antenna system ,
That shouldn't happen!
Unless you were pointed in the wrong direction....
> but since he was whipped by the antenna
> system, they copied it and is now selling them like he designed it, again
> thats bullshit
I know they tried to reproduce your antenna system, (just like many
others who were at the keydown did), because they all thought that was
the secret of your success!
And let's face it, you really did kick some A$$ that day!
He wanted to be ready and able to compete against you in the
Carolinas.
He went to the Carolinas but you didn't.
I had not heard anything about him selling any copies of your antenna
system.....
> ======================================================================
>
> - I didn't see you trying to go against Danny using a similar antenna
> -system...
>
> ============================================================================
> Why should I , it is called technology It is called catch me if you can . I
> was there to win and i won soundly .
I agree.
It's just that you talk like it was an equal battle; amp against amp;
and it wasn't!
> He had the reputation for winning
> keydowns not me, he was the defending champ , that was the first "
> sanctioned" keydown I have competed in. He took a davemade there the year
> before and cleaned up .
All of that is true.
I also think it may be true that Danny beat himself!
I believe that he blew up because he tried too hard to beat you, and
cranked up his voltage too high attempting to do it.
I would like to hear the tapes to find out who was heard before he
blew up.....
> - Is it really Dave's design?
>
> - Can you prove it?
> =================================================
> You prove to me that it is not, show me another amp that uses the tuning as
> daves does , beside thex force now.
Real Deal, only they did not get it to work as well as Dave did.
They were the first I had ever seen to use the multiport combigner
other than the engineers at Motorola....
As far as Dave's tuning, I have been using L-C networks to fine tune
the impedance mismatches on amps for as long as I have been working on
them.
I don't use a fancy spiral and a homemade teflon insulated cap. I
just use silver plated 8 or 10 AWG and fixed ceramic or silver mica to
replace the small vacuum variable I use for the initial tuning.
> - I have played that role myself many times and never complained when a
> -student used something he learned from me!
>
> ==================================================================
> But was it for monetary gain
Ask Sonny Day how much money he has made...
> and was it being used against you ??
I used to get repair work from Michigan that I don't get any more...
But I still have more than enough work to keep me busy full time!
> - Who says they can't FIX an amp?
> =========================================================================
> You forget I have worked with him, I have seen first hand what I feel he is
> capable of , I didnt say he couldnt fix them at all.
Good.
> I certainly dont think
> he fully understands what certain parts will do in a circuit , and how or
> why they can be replaced with another .
I don't think I fully understand those things yet myself!
But I'm learning quickly....
> Remember the .01 caps that were
> blown ??
I think they were .1UFD, but I get your point....
> - I believe 123 has 'fixed' more amps than Dave or you have if you just
> -want to do the numbers.....
>
> ============================================================================
> I doubt that very seriously dave has been at this a long time , dont count
> me . if 123 fixed many amps they were probably his own since he blew them
> up.
> ============================================================================
I know that he was, and still is, a competitor for the amplifier
repair business in this area.
If he couldn't fix them they wouldn't be bringing them to him...
> - Why do you believe it takes some special superhuman skills or talent
> -to repair an amp?
>
> ============================================================================
> It takes a certain amount of electronic aptitude , most anyone can repair
> pills etc , when there is a problem that need to be trouble shooted thats
> were you seperate a technician from a parts replacer,
Move out here for 6 months and I'll be willing and happy to teach
you....
In 6 months time you will know 80% of everything there is to know,
and that other 20% will take the rest of your life!
> I am not talking
> just about amps . There are 2 regulators of daves design that have been
> copied and built by x force , they arent working now and 123 cant fix
> them , why because he doesnt understand how they work. Because it was a copy
> ============================================================================
Once again he did not bring them to me if he had them.
Why not?
Why would he send them back to Dave if he thought building them was a
no-no?
> - Now that sounds like a 'challenge'.
> ========================================================================
> I love challanges , I am very very competitive. Maywood this year was a
> challange for me
> ========================================================================
Officially that would be 'last' year, but I had a great time being
there.
I guess I was a lousy 'spy' because I never did ask to look at any of
your stuff, and even if I would have looked at it I was too inebriated
to remember anything.....
I understand there is not going to be a keydown in Maywood this year,
but maybe I will see you in Detroit at the Sonny Day event.
> - I believe the little guy should have a chance!
>
> ================================================================
> I beleive the little guy should have a chance but not at someone elses
> expense , using there own products
> I would firmly back him , i would give him much credit ,
By 'his own products' does that mean anything other than the products
that Dave Makes?
> When dan was out
> here we were friends and hung out many times drinking , talking , screwingt
> around etc but there was always talk of him leaving and taking this new
> found info with him
So I guess he never make his plans a secret, and it was no surprise
to anyone when he left....
> ============================================================================
> What i say about x force is that it is daves design from day 1,
I'm sorry but I do not see anything that 'unique' about Dave's
design.
I have seen all of those things Dave has incorporated into his amps
used in one way or another over the years and in various ways..
I believe that what Dave did was took a bunch of different good ideas
other people had and were applying in different areas, and put them
all together in a very nice cabinet. Then he refined the design until
it was something very good. I give him all the credit in the world for
his ability to do that.
But I have not seen anything new and unique in his amps other than
the 'output tuning system' he is using, which I believe could be
replaced with standard 'off the shelf' components like an inductor and
a capacitor!
> Again
> amplifiers are not the only product here
I know that.
How are the 'switching' power supplies working out?
> now i am sure they are trying to
> and are going to make as many changes , no matter how small or big to get
> rid of the stigma of being a dave clone, . If he didnt make any changes it
> would be the same and perform the same , not many amps can claim they
> perform the same as davemade
I agree with all of that!
And I hope that in 2 months or so you will not be able to make that
statement that his amps are Dave Made Clones.
I'm sure The XFORCE Folks feel the same way as I do about this.
I really don't think anyone intentionally set out to hurt either you
or Dave.
I don't think they could if they tried....
And everything I hear them say about you or Dave is always said with
the greatest respect for your abilities.
But the man has got to earn a living!
There's plenty of 'market' out there.
More than enough to keep you and Dave and Carl and Danny working full
time for a long time just to keep up with the demand....
Why don't you guys just try to get along?
> ============================================================================
> #12 , I think we both have said what we wanted to
I agree.
> and I am tired of giving
> x force more air time than they deserve .
I can understand that.
> i guess we shall all wait and see
> what transpires.
Good!
Give them a chance to improve the product and then you can copy
theirs!
I think turabout would be fair play in this case; and I believe they
would gladly share any 'secrets' with you just so they wouldn't have
to feel 'beholdin' to you!
> I dont want to ruin any friendships over this with anyone
Neither do I.
I value what frendship I have had with you, and respect your ability
to do what needs to be done.
I also respect your ability to 'acquire' a fabulous looking female
companion.
And I want to stay friends with you at least long enough for you to
teach me that 'acquire' trick of yours!
> I think most know how i feel .
I think I do, and I admire your loyalty to Dave....
Please understand that Dan is my COMPETITION here!
I am NOT part of TEAM XFORCE, and I probably never will be!
dennis W. Ostrowski
>
> Joe & the Hurricane 350 had a better idea back in the very early
> were made before that. As I have stated here many times before,
> the Hurricane 350 is the Grand Daddy of all "competition amps".
> No bias, huge output transformers to minimize saturation and
> bigger combiners than what most current production amps use
> nowadays. They also had variable RX preamps and variable SSB
> was lack of heatsinking. They were only about 20 years ahead of
> their time !!! Sean
I agree with Sean as far as his evaluation of Joe Terrone and his
Hurricane 350.
But I wonder when the Metrotech amps were first produced in Chicago?
There were also the Vibratrol amps (also in the Chicago area).
And the Contex 7206 which was another solid state amp made in the
Chicago area (Joliet).
And then there were the 'Outcom' products from Indiana.
Anyone have a timeline on them?
Dennis
#12
dennis W. Ostrowski
>
> No, No....
>
> I want the ones that you are going to be building.... Or did I read that
> post to 10-7 wrong? hehehehehe
>
> Toll Free
Honest Toll,
I am not building any XFORCE amps!
I don't have time to do any stuff like that!
Really!
Dennis
#12
Toll Free
I want a SKI amp!
Toll Free
dennis W. Ostrowski wrote in message <36A5141B...@lucent.com>...
10-7
??
J Scotty
600 were great amps.you could also buy a remote kit for these.Sean these were
great
amps and I think they were made by telco.
73,Scotty
Rodri880
the air waves I just want to say somthing. I understand the frustration of
having somone emulate your design but, look at cars as a example. The car was
invented here in the US but look whoes building cars and trucks now. Toyota
make truck engines that will do 300 + thousand miles, they didnt invent the car
but just refined it. I build boxes on the side for my self and a few freinds
and have seen all sorts of different types made. What I do is get Ideas from
all these different makes and incorperate them into what I feel will improve
mine. Is that wrong? the idea that some one cant duplicate and change the
design of someone else is nuts. Thats what keeps the market competetive and
gives the consumer the best deal. If Muddy Water Slapper started using "fuel
injection" tommarow to improve there output numbers by 100% tell me you wouldnt
start trying it. ha! thats what I thought. Just my 2 cents and thats about all
its worth. Peace....
Sean
admitted to doing research and development for them, correct ?
After all, you stated that they are trying out your new input
circuit and that they would be the ones to release any
information about it. In effect, you have given them the
opportunity to use or copy your circuit whether you like it or
not !!!
Since you've given them the exclusive rights to test and use your
circuit before anyone else, that does make you a member of the
X-Force team, whether YOU think so or not. You might not be a
partner or even a builder of the final product, but you are
assisting them in research and development. This isn't the first
time either. You have now stepped over the line and can no
longer claim to be a "neutral observer" in the "Dave Made Vs.
X-Force" war.
All that I can say is that I sure hope that you'll be well
compensated for your time and efforts as I'm quite sure that
someone along the line will try to steal the glory and fame if
that circuit works as well as you claim !!! Sean
>
dennis W. Ostrowski wrote in message
<36A5141B...@lucent.com>...
>
> Honest Toll,
> I am not building any XFORCE amps!
> I don't have time to do any stuff like that!
> Really!
>
>Dennis
>#12
>
"Only time, and the XFORCE testing, will tell....
As for now, don't call me for info on that input circuit, because
until it is fully tested no information will be released (unless
it comes
directly from XFORCE)."
Sean
myself, reliable sources say that they heard nothing but 10-7
saying "wipe out" from beginning to end. No buzz or squeal, just
over the top audio. Receiving up close on the walkie talkie that
I was using to monitor the keydown, I did hear 123 distinctly
until he blew up though. Sean
>
dennis W. Ostrowski wrote in message
>Sean wrote:
>>
>> 123 did have a beam on his suburban, just not as many elements
as
>> 10-7 had.
>
>
>> have been beaten (by a cheater the one time), but he never had
to
>> shut down in the middle of the key because he blew up.
>
>
> I believe that if Toll Free, or you were in that suburban the
amp
>would not have blown up!
>
> I have said many, many, times that Dan had the reputation as
being
>Mr. GO OR BLOW at the local keydowns around here because he
always
>took it to the MAX, even when he didn't need it, and when 10-7
showed
>up with more antenna elements than Dan had, he psyched Dan out
and Dan
>tried to stay competitive by volting up more than he normally
would
>have.
>
> The point I was trying to make is that if Dan had a single
antenna,
>or one with a reflector or a director, and 10-7 appears with a 5
>element beam, we are no longer comparing amplifiers!
>
>> one class that 10-7 didn't win (4 pill), it was won by one of
>> 123's best friends, 711.
>
>
> Did Dan even compete in that class?
>
>> Made box and still is as far as I know.
>
>
>> X-Force had a bigger heatsink, just a taller case.
>
that
>particular model amp.
>
> So I was going on what someone else wrote in one of their
posts, and
>I thought it was yours because you were the person who did the
review
>of the amp..
>
> If you didn't make that statement I apologize...
>
>> get this wrong guys, I'm not playing ANY favorites here as the
>> outcome of this really doesn't affect me one way or the other.
>> I'm just trying to keep the facts straight. Sean
>
dennis W. Ostrowski
>
> 123 was using a two element system. While I didn't hear the tape
> myself, reliable sources say that they heard nothing but 10-7
> saying "wipe out" from beginning to end. No buzz or squeal, just
> over the top audio. Receiving up close on the walkie talkie that
> I was using to monitor the keydown, I did hear 123 distinctly
> until he blew up though. Sean
2 elements against 5 elements; HMMMMMMM...., I wonder who should have
had the advantage?
I had heard 123 on the XFORCE amp. also.....
It may have even been on your walkie-talkie that I heard him because
you weren't that far away from me.
But I did hear him on someone's watergate that was close to me and
loud enough that I could hear it...
Which is why I asked the question about hearing the actual
tape(s)....
Maybe I should have been holding my own walkie talkie instead of that
beer!....Nahhhh!
Dennis
#12
dennis W. Ostrowski
Only one of those was a GREAT amp!
And that was the Hurricane 350.
The rest were pretty BAD compared to the Hurricane!
And yes, they were made by Joe Terrone/Telco...
Dennis
#12
dennis W. Ostrowski
>
> While you may not be building any amps for them, you have
> admitted to doing research and development for them, correct ?
> After all, you stated that they are trying out your new input
> circuit and that they would be the ones to release any
> information about it. In effect, you have given them the
> opportunity to use or copy your circuit whether you like it or
> not !!!
I have freely admitted coming up with a modified input circuit!
But I don't know if I would call it R & D!
They did not make the initial contact, I did.
I just wanted to see how good the design was; and to see if I could
make it any better...
So I asked them for an amp to 'play with' for a while...
It turned out that they had a 'dud' that was doing lower than normal
output, (and they refuse to ship them when they are not producing up
to par), so instead of him 'fixing' it he gave it to me to play with.
The 'challenge' for me was to try and improve on the existing XFORCE
(DAVEMADE) design in a way that wouldn't increase the production cost
of the unit.
I believe I may have found a way to do that.
And then again maybe I didn't....
It took me about a half hour to come to the conclusion that a lot of
the input power was simply being 'wasted' in the input circuitry.
(At least it looked that way to me!)
I modified the input circuit, the results seemed pretty good, and I
did not take it any further than that...
I gave the unit back to Dan the last time he stopped over and he put
it in his truck and liked what he was seeing.
He has not BENCH TESTED it yet but is supposed to try to get to it
today.
I have not told Dan what I did to the unit yet.
If it works better than what he has then it will be up to him to
figure out what I did and try to understand it.
That is all part of the 'learning' process.
I am not making it any easier for him than I ever did for you Sean!
If he can't figure it out and asks me to explain it to him I will....
But I expect him to give it his best shot on his own first!
I said "go to them for the information" because I wanted them to be
the first ones to have it if it was any good.
That was because they had freely provided me (at MY request) with an
amp to 'play' with when they didn't really have to.
And also because if the 'mod' turned out to be a DUD; I would not be
disseminating BAD information to this newsgroup!
> Since you've given them the exclusive rights to test and use your
> circuit before anyone else, that does make you a member of the
> X-Force team, whether YOU think so or not.
In your perspective it may seem that way, but that would also make me
a member of 'your' team because I have done similar things for you in
the past.
> You might not be a
> partner or even a builder of the final product, but you are
> assisting them in research and development.
Assuming that what I did is really worth anything!
That's a huge assumption at this point in time....
> This isn't the first
> time either.
Huh?
> You have now stepped over the line and can no
> longer claim to be a "neutral observer" in the "Dave Made Vs.
> X-Force" war.
Maybe so.
But I hope not.
I formerly requested to be a part of the Davemade team but they
didn't want me.
That was about a year ago...
That made me feel pretty bad because that was the first time anyone
in the industry had ever turned down my request to get 'involved'....
The hurt lasted about 2 weeks, but I got over it.
> All that I can say is that I sure hope that you'll be well
> compensated for your time and efforts as I'm quite sure that
> someone along the line will try to steal the glory and fame if
> that circuit works as well as you claim !!! Sean
The total time spent was less than an hour.
The compensation could be a beer and a pizza. (if it works for them)
If they decide to use the new circuitry, and don't acknowledge where
it came from, I just won't help them again.
Kind of like my experience with Bird and that peak reading kit!
As far as FAME and GLORY, I already have that 'vicariously'.
The people that are 'in the know' will understand what I mean by
that....
But I really do appreciate your concern Sean....
Thank you,
Dennis
#12
Toll Free
different input...
Still have not heard from you on that challenge about a side-by-side
comparison of Daves Vs. Dan's products... Am I being ignored?
Toll Free
10-7 wrote in message ...
>But you are helping in the design, and any improvements and advice correct
>??
>
>
>
>dennis W. Ostrowski wrote in message <36A5141B...@lucent.com>...
>>Toll Free wrote:
>>>
>>> No, No....
>>>
>>> I want the ones that you are going to be building.... Or did I read
that
>>> post to 10-7 wrong? hehehehehe
>>>
>>> Toll Free
>>
Bill Eitner
>
> Joe & the Hurricane 350 had a better idea back in the very early
> 70's (at least). I have one dated from 1974 and I know that they
> were made before that.
That still doesn't outdate the technology or Helge's
application of that technology.
> As I have stated here many times before,
> the Hurricane 350 is the Grand Daddy of all "competition amps".
> No bias, huge output transformers to minimize saturation and
> bigger combiners than what most current production amps use
> nowadays.
That just means they were overbuilt. In my opinion,
that's always the tendancy in the early days of any
new technology.
Don't get me wrong, you're right in that the overbuilding
created a very abusable amplifier. After all, isn't that
what competition is really about--who can abuse their
stuff the most and get away with it?
> They also had variable RX preamps and variable SSB
> delay with a detachable remote control head. Their only problem
> was lack of heatsinking.
Again I agree. It's funny how they could be so innovative
(variable preamp and delay) and at the same time so irres-
ponsible (poor heatsinking and no forced-air cooling).
> They were only about 20 years ahead of
> their time !!!
I don't agree that they were that far ahead of their time.
In stock shape, with the transistors they used at the time,
they were nothing special in my opinion. In other words,
you have to abuse them to make them stand out. I'm sure
they were really depressed (if they were even in business
anymore) when Outcomm came along.
> Sean
==================================================================
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
10-7
Toll Free wrote in message ...
Sean
circuitry was different than most and harder to work on for most
"techs". The outcomm amps have come a long way. Back then,
their numbers were lower and they weren't as stable as they are
nowadays. They also used different pills. ALL of the local
dealers recommended the Hurricane 350 over the Outcomm 350 back
then. Sean
>
Bill Eitner wrote in message <36A6A1...@earthlink.net>...
Toll Free
I still have not heard from anyone at X-Force...
People in the market can deduce there own conclusions from these statements,
but at least 10-7 did make an honest attempt to speak to me about it.
Sean
can build. It would only hurt them in the long run, regardless
of the outcome of any measured tests. Sean
XFORCE827
sorry not at this time we are busyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
maybe if you contact steve at export he will sell you one to test then sell it
if you dont want it but we are busy filling orders just as i believe dave is
also.
sorry
827 goneeeeeeeee
EXPORTSRUS
units are strong and doing very well. There are different makes and models to
choose from so you will find what you are looking for.
Thanks, Steve
http://members.aol.com/cbs313/Index.html
Bill Eitner
>
> Believe me, the dealers didn't like Outcomm way back when. The
> circuitry was different than most and harder to work on for most
> "techs". The outcomm amps have come a long way. Back then,
> their numbers were lower and they weren't as stable as they are
> nowadays. They also used different pills. ALL of the local
> dealers recommended the Hurricane 350 over the Outcomm 350 back
> then. Sean
Well, in my neck of the woods I've seen the exact same
thing with the Commander amps. The Commander amps were
the only ones to have a fully regulated bias circuit.
In my day it was either no bias, diode bias, or the
fully regulated Commander bias. Which is the best in
your opinion?
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EXPORTSRUS
Thanks, Steve
http://members.aol.com/cbs313/Index.html
Sean
setup in many areas and can typically compete / beat many of the
competition boxes with a little "TLC" applied. I hate the
Commander amps. Kind of a "generic" copy of the original Magnum
amps but lower performance. They also suffer from the regulators
overheating. Sean
>
Bill Eitner wrote in message <36A964...@earthlink.net>...
Dennis W. Ostrowski
Well, in my neck of the woods I've seen the exact same
thing with the Commander amps. The Commander amps were
the only ones to have a fully regulated bias circuit.
In my day it was either no bias, diode bias, or the
fully regulated Commander bias. Which is the best in
your opinion?
But I don't know for how long!
If this system keeps going up and down like it has been;
I will have to rename it "YO-YO"!
The Commander amps that I have worked on did not have a bias regulator; although many folks thought it did.
The ones I saw only had a Bias SWITCH system that used a TO-220 cased transistor to turn the bias on...
Dennis
#12
Dennis W. Ostrowski
I'M BACK!But I don't know for how long!
If this system keeps going up and down like it has been;
I will have to rename it "YO-YO"!
This is a test to see if it will do it again....
Dennis
#12
Hillbilly_1943
Dennis W. Ostrowski wrote in message <36AE6FFE...@nwedim.ih.lucent.com>...
Sean
back amongst the living. Sean
Dennis W. Ostrowski
>
> Probably because it rejected all of that HTML crap. Glad your
> back amongst the living. Sean
Sorry Sean,
But the system default is that HTML 'crap' and I wanted to use the
system while it was up instead of wasting time editing preferences!
Hope this is better now!
Dennis
#12