OT Should McCain step down?

[Hank]

Should McCain step down? If he did, who would replace him? Reports say his cancer is aggressive, so how do we know he might have a memory lapse in his decision making process?

Also, should there be an age limit on politicians?

Hank

[nothermark]

On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 02:59:49 -0700 (PDT), Hank <nineb...@aol.com>
wrote:

> Should McCain step down? If he did, who would replace him? Reports say his cancer is aggressive, so how do we know he might have a memory lapse in his decision making process?
>
>Also, should there be an age limit on politicians?
>
>Hank

Yes

[Technobarbarbarian]

In article <6f77265f-83a2-40c4...@googlegroups.com>, nineb...@aol.com says...

>
> Should McCain step down? If he did, who would replace him? Reports say his cancer is aggressive, so how do we know he might have a memory lapse in his decision making process?
>
> Also, should there be an age limit on politicians?
>
> Hank

ROFLOL "Memory lapse?" Dude. We have a President who's one giant memory lapse. The guy is so ignorant that he doesn't even know what he doesn't know. His family and other aides are continually
admitting that there's a lot they do not remember from recent events they were involved in. Jared can't even remember what he owns or figure this out for official documents. Most of our politicians
are making decisions based on some stupid "ideology" instead of a rational look at the likely results. We have hundreds of supposedly healthy politicians who are making far less rational decisions
than McCain. In Washington today, even at his worst, McCain isn't likely to stand out as someone who is significantly more impaired than our average politician.

TB

[Bruce]

You only have to look at videos of him during various TV appearances in
the last month or so to know that this cancer is affecting his ability
to think. He should have stepped down the minute he got the diagnoses.

--
Bruce

No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual
fear, and danger of violent death: and the life of man, solitary, poor,
nasty, brutish and short.~~Thomas Hobbs, Leviathan 1651

[dm_callier]

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 9:56:24 AM UTC-7, bruce wrote:
>
> You only have to look at videos of him during various TV appearances in
> the last month or so to know that this cancer is affecting his ability
> to think. He should have stepped down the minute he got the diagnoses.
>

Hmmm, he sounded pretty rational and coherent while addressing the Senate following the healthcare vote yesterday.

“Stop listening to the bombastic loudmouths on the radio and television and the internet. To hell with them,” McCain said to uncharacteristic applause in the chamber. “They don't want anything done for the public good. Our incapacity is their livelihood...”

That sounds like a guy with more marbles than most of the swampdwellers.

[George Anthony]

I'm pretty sure the applause came from the "left" side of the aisle.

[George Anthony]

On 7/26/2017 11:20 AM, Bruce wrote:
> On 7/26/2017 2:59 AM, Hank wrote:
>> Should McCain step down? If he did, who would replace him? Reports
>> say his cancer is aggressive, so how do we know he might have a memory
>> lapse in his decision making process?
>>
>> Also, should there be an age limit on politicians?
>>
>> Hank
>
> You only have to look at videos of him during various TV appearances in
> the last month or so to know that this cancer is affecting his ability
> to think. He should have stepped down the minute he got the diagnoses.
>

These people have egos the size of the universe. They would like to be
appointed for life like the SCOTUS.

[Major Oz]

I have always had respect for McCain, the man....and McCain, the Navy vet....but kinda lukewarm on his politics.

HOWEVER.....

Everyone needs to see his speech on the Senate floor, one that stands in the highest traditions of our ideals.


...and: yes, he will step down as soon as he and the AZ gov can agree on the details

[George Anthony]

I have the same sentiment. The good news is, the Arizona governor is a
republican. Otherwise, I'd help pay MCain's medical bills until he's up
for reelection again.

[D-R]

On 7/26/2017 12:52 PM, George Anthony wrote:

> I have the same sentiment. The good news is, the Arizona governor is a
> republican.

That is the only good news. The VA hospital in Phoenix is the worst
in the country and he doesn't seem to care. The only thing I have seen
him worry about is getting reelected. His best asset in getting
reelected has been that the Democrats can't seem to run anybody
qualified against him. His stay as a POW was horrible but partly due to
his disregard of SOPs.

--

AJ - Enjoying Arizona

[Major Oz]

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 3:49:37 PM UTC-5, D-R wrote:

> His stay as a POW was horrible but partly due to
> his disregard of SOPs.

Could you expand on that, please ?


[ I object to the overuse of the term "hero". His heroism stems from staying in line for release....NOT for being a POW. We need to come up with a new term for the horrific suffering that he and others experienced, as hero is something else, altogether ]

[D-R]

On 7/26/2017 2:47 PM, Major Oz wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 3:49:37 PM UTC-5, D-R wrote:
>
>> His stay as a POW was horrible but partly due to
>> his disregard of SOPs.
>
> Could you expand on that, please ?

Too low and in an area he was not supposed to be in .... when I was
in it was called hot dogging!

>
>
> [ I object to the overuse of the term "hero". His heroism stems from staying in line for release....NOT for being a POW. We need to come up with a new term for the horrific suffering that he and others experienced, as hero is something else, altogether ]

Very true ... but doesn't everyone obey the Geneva Convention or is
it just us?

[Hank]

I agree the term hero is overused, but what does hero mean to you?

Hank

[Major Oz]

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 12:19:07 AM UTC-5, Hank wrote:
>
> I agree the term hero is overused, but what does hero mean to you?

1. Someone who saved another from death or serious injury. Everything from the teen who did CPR to the grunt who jumped on a grenade, or

2. Someone who exposes himself to danger to prevent death or serious injury to others. Combatants, HRT's, Secret Service......security at a Milo speech (just kidding)

[Major Oz]

Even here, the lines get hazy.....

[film...@gmail.com]

I'd think McCain's Purple Heart would qualify him for military hero status? What other medals does he have?

Alvin York

[bill horne]

To me, a hero is one who goes above and beyond. That means to me that
cops, firefighters, and soldiers are not heroes just because they do
their jobs of being cops, firefighters, and soldiers - even if they
die doing it. Above and beyond.

If your average civilian risks his life to save someone, he's a hero.
If a cop or a firefighter risks his life to save someone, he's not a
hero. That's simply the job they're trained and paid to do. If an EMT
saves someone, he's not a hero - but if he risks his own life to save
someone, he's a hero. Above and beyond.

A Purple Heart does not make one a hero unless he got it while going
above and beyond.

I admit that my concept of a hero - or heroine - is not in step with
the current concept. The overuse you mention has devalued "hero" into
an almost ho-hum thing. And I think that's unfortunate.

--
bill
Theory don't mean squat if it don't work.

[nothermark]

All a purple heart means is that you were in the wrong place when the
bullet/shrapnel/whatever went through. That could be leading the
charge or hiding under a rock.

[Hank]

I mostly agree with you BH. But it takes a certain kind of person to be willing to put his life on the line in a job that is full of dangers. Not every Policman, firefighter, serviceman, and etc. are hero's just because that is the job they took. Not every policeman, firefighter, serviceman, and etc. can do the job they signed up to do. Many find out later that they weren't cut-out for the job like they thought after taking it.

I am someone who has been called a hero (for pulling out a small girl who was burned and unconscious in a fire back in the early 70's) and then reprimanded for the same act. In reality, it was my job and I did my job. The little girl found me a few months ago on FB and called me her hero. I told her that she had a team of hero's. She wouldn't be alive today if the squad that took her didn't do their job, or the hospital employees in the ER and burn unit didn't do their job. She was one lucky girl.

It usually takes more than one person/team to make a "hero". If the little girl had died, it would've meant nothing other than just another casualty. But she fought thru the pain and many operations and had a will to live. She is the hero in my book.

Hank

[Major Oz]

Maj. Dick Winters said it best:

"My grandson asked me: 'Grampa, are you a hero ? ' I said: 'No; but I served with a number of them'. "

[Major Oz]

...sheeee-yit....

Even John Kerry has two (three ?) of them. His boatmates laughed their asses off at that.

[Bruce]

On 7/27/2017 1:26 AM, bill horne wrote:
>>
>> I agree the term hero is overused, but what does hero mean to you?
>
> To me, a hero is one who goes above and beyond. That means to me that
> cops, firefighters, and soldiers are not heroes just because they do
> their jobs of being cops, firefighters, and soldiers - even if they die
> doing it. Above and beyond.
>
> If your average civilian risks his life to save someone, he's a hero. If
> a cop or a firefighter risks his life to save someone, he's not a hero.
> That's simply the job they're trained and paid to do. If an EMT saves
> someone, he's not a hero - but if he risks his own life to save someone,
> he's a hero. Above and beyond.
>
> A Purple Heart does not make one a hero unless he got it while going
> above and beyond.
>
> I admit that my concept of a hero - or heroine - is not in step with the
> current concept. The overuse you mention has devalued "hero" into an
> almost ho-hum thing. And I think that's unfortunate.

I agree with you -- I would clarify that the above and beyond must
include real personal risk of death or very serious injury.

By that standard, Superman would not be a hero, no matter how many
people he saved because nothing he does puts him at real risk.

[nothermark]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 12:42:57 -0700 (PDT), Major Oz <ozm...@gmail.com>
wrote:

As I recall the officers used to write each other up for a medal any
time the found an excuse. That was the basis of the Swift Boat deal.

[film...@gmail.com]

Your criteria for a "Hero" would make a pretty hard view on all those "legions of heroes" tearfully praised by a grateful nation, at ceremonies on Veteran's Day, etc, wouldn't it?

Back in the "good old days", the military had only two medals. The Purple Heart, and Medal of Honor, often awarded for capturing an enemy flag...... Maybe Prez Cheeto ought to eliminate all those new less meaningful medals for military saving purposes?

Audie Murphy

Vinegar Joe Stillwell

[D-R]

On 7/27/2017 7:38 AM, Hank wrote:

>
> It usually takes more than one person/team to make a "hero". If the little girl had died, it would've meant nothing other than just another casualty. But she fought thru the pain and many operations and had a will to live. She is the hero in my book.

Yup never rescued a girl but I did rescue a bunny during a house fire
for a frantic man... Not anything like you have done but did a lot of
rescues involving things like crushed up cars and people in places they
did not belong, no hero just someone with the psychobiological make up
that allowed me to do it while other watched ... Like a similar
statement .. I do not know what a hero is but I know one when I see
one...maybe the guy that says "Ah shucks !"

[vito]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 14:57:33 -0700 (PDT), film...@gmail.com wrote:

>Your criteria for a "Hero" would make a pretty hard view on all those "legions of heroes" tearfully praised by a grateful nation, at ceremonies on Veteran's Day, etc, wouldn't it?
>

Yup, and rightfully so. Let me draw two real contrasts'

Dan enlisted in the Marines at the height of the Viet Nam war, and
served two hitches as a side gunner in a combat helo with a unit that
took over 100% casualties. He still carries some schrapnel, the rest
he, or a buddy, picked out without any medical report or medals.

Nut joined the Air Force in peace time when he couldn't find a
civilian job. Did 2 years stateside and another 2 in England as a
taxi (Jeep) driver for air crews - mostly watching TV and shooting
pool. He had his family with him and in fact fathered two kids on
Uncle Sam's dime. Stateside he lived in a 2-story 3br townhouse on
base. In Blimey he had a cottage off base and found time to tour in
his new MGB that his grateful daddy bought him.

Are they both heros?

[Major Oz]

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 4:57:35 PM UTC-5, film...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Back in the "good old days", the military had only two medals.

Have you kept up with the new ones ?

(I lump ribbons in with medals)

Next time you see an active duty Army or AF type in Class A uniform, look at the ribbons.

The National Defense Service medal -- called the alive in '65 medal -- means just that.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:National_Defense_Service_Medal,_Set-057.JPG

This medal will be near the top of the rack.

That means the ones BELOW are "lower" in rank / prestige

Note how many there are........

Shoes shined three days in a row.
Didn't fart in the company of commander.
Brushes teeth at least twice a week.
Got through basic training.
etc.

Dumb ass stuff to impress the dumbers.

[Major Oz]

...thus the problem....

[bill horne]

As it should be.

> Back in the "good old days", the military had only two medals. The
> Purple Heart, and Medal of Honor, often awarded for capturing an
> enemy flag...... Maybe Prez Cheeto ought to eliminate all those
> new less meaningful medals for military saving purposes?

I don't know when your good old days were, but in mine, there were a
few other medals awarded for real heroism - and the V device. And I
have no problem with other medals and ribbons awarded for
"meritorious", "commendable", and "achievement" stuff - but getting
them doesn't make one a hero.

And the Purple Heart is Not a "hero" medal. It's nothing more than an
award for getting injured or killed in action. Getting shot or killed
while the guy fighting next to you did not, does Not make you a hero -
unless you stepped in front of the bullet and saved him.

[bill horne]

That's probably true - but you don't get "recommended" (written up)
for a PH. If you meet the criteria, you get it.

[nothermark]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 21:51:54 -0400, bill horne <red...@rye.net>
wrote:

Yes, I get it.

The criteria is:

while serving under competent authority in any capacity with one of
the U.S. Armed Services after April 5, 1917, has been wounded or
killed. That has to be in combat and require medical care so there
are records. That is pretty much the extent of the requirements.
It does not differentiate between fighting the enemy and getting shot
in the ass while trying to hide under a rock. That is the point no
criteria about how one got the wound, just that it happened.

Did run into a little tidbit for the folks who oppose dropping Nukes
on Japan:

"During World War II, nearly 500,000 Purple Heart medals were
manufactured in anticipation of the estimated casualties resulting
from the planned Allied invasion of Japan. To the present date, total
combined American military casualties of the seventy years following
the end of World War II擁ncluding the Korean and Vietnam Wars揺ave not
exceeded that number. In 2003, there remained 120,000 Purple Heart
medals in stock. The existing surplus allowed combat units in Iraq and
Afghanistan to keep Purple Hearts on-hand for immediate award to
soldiers wounded in the field"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_Heart

That should give folks who worry about such things an idea of how many
folks we expected to see hurt on each side if it was invasion instead.

[film...@gmail.com]

People die from non-combat causes in the military just like they do everywhere else. There's a big difference between getting wounded by battle, and a "training accident", or a "Hold my beer, and watch this!" incident... A pile of paperwork would be involved in either....

I can't help but wonder if there's been a considerable amount of hero inflation, by various administrations for our noble warriors who didn't really achieve much on the battlefield, but needed a boost from the folks back home? OTOH, there's probably drone operators in some cushy office in Miami, who've killed 10X the enemy as a some poor grunt, dodging RPGs for multiple tours of combat?

BTW, would you classify the little Dutch boy, who held his finger in the dyke as a hero?

Dr. Pieter Van Helsing

[bill horne]

So you agree with me. That's scary.

> I can't help but wonder if there's been a considerable amount of
> hero inflation, by various administrations for our noble warriors
> who didn't really achieve much on the battlefield, but needed a
> boost from the folks back home?

Wonder? It's obvious.

> OTOH, there's probably drone
> operators in some cushy office in Miami, who've killed 10X the
> enemy as a some poor grunt, dodging RPGs for multiple tours of
> combat?

If that's a real question, I don't know what it's asking.

> BTW, would you classify the little Dutch boy, who held his finger
> in the dyke as a hero?

It's a legend, man. It's a legend.

[vito]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 22:48:18 -0700 (PDT), film...@gmail.com wrote:
>People die from non-combat causes in the military just like they do everywhere else. There's a big difference between getting wounded by battle, and a "training accident", or a "Hold my beer, and watch this!" incident... A pile of paperwork would be involved in either....
>
>I can't help but wonder if there's been a considerable amount of hero inflation, by various administrations for our noble warriors who didn't really achieve much on the battlefield, but needed a boost from the folks back home? OTOH, there's probably drone operators in some cushy office in Miami, who've killed 10X the enemy as a some poor grunt, dodging RPGs for multiple tours of combat?

In my cartoon mind I see this drone operator, safely stateside, being
injured whilst controlling a drone that he is using to kill enemies
and getting a Purple Heart .... Oy!

>
>BTW, would you classify the little Dutch boy, who held his finger in the dyke as a hero?
>

Well, if the dyke was as big and mean as the Womens' coaches at
Compton Hi, sure.

[Major Oz]

On Friday, July 28, 2017 at 12:48:21 AM UTC-5, film...@gmail.com wrote:

>....there's probably drone operators in some cushy office in Miami...

Vegas (Nellis AFB)... and, although they sit in "recliners", it ain't an office.

[Jan Orme]

On Thursday, July 27, 2017 at 1:26:37 AM UTC-7, bill horne wrote:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I just recently finished reading a book that is a Biography of Jimmy Stewart by Robert Matzen (published October 24, 2016).

MISSION: Jimmy Stewart and the Fight for Europe

https://www.amazon.com/Mission-Jimmy-Stewart-Fight-Europe/dp/0996274057

Please read at that link what it says about Jimmy Stewart:

<In March 1941, Jimmy Stewart, America’s boy next door and recent Academy Award winner, left fame and fortune behind and joined the United States Army Air Corps to fulfill his family mission and serve his country. He rose from private to colonel and participated in 20 often-brutal World War II combat missions over Germany and France. In mere months the war took away his boyish looks as he faced near-death experiences and the loss of men under his command. The war finally won, he returned home with millions of other veterans to face an uncertain future, suffering what we now know as PTSD. Younger stars like Gregory Peck were now getting roles that might have been Stewart’s, and he didn’t know if he would ever work in Hollywood again. Then came It’s a Wonderful Life.

For the next half century, Stewart refused to discuss his combat experiences and took the story of his service to the grave. Mission presents the first in-depth look at Stewart’s life as a Squadron Commander in the skies over Germany, and, his return to Hollywood the changed man who embarked on production of America’s most beloved holiday classic.

Author Robert Matzen sifted through thousands of Air Force combat reports and the Stewart personnel files; interviewed surviving aviators who flew with Stewart; visited the James Stewart Papers at Brigham Young University; flew in the cockpits of the B-17 Flying Fortress and B-24 Liberator; and walked the earth of air bases in England used by Stewart in his combat missions of 1943-45. What emerges in Mission is the story of a Jimmy Stewart you never knew until now, a story more fantastic than any he brought to the screen.>

James Stewart was completely UNSUNG!!! Refused to talk about his service for those 20 missions! Watched his men get killed and slaughtered. He also fought like all hell to get himself reclassified so he could serve and get his deferment overturned so he could fly and fight.

It's an AMAZING STORY! I highly suggest you find it and read it.

I read it on my kindle for a cheap price available to AMAZON PRIME Members.

Perhaps those that serve and refuse to toot their own horn are some of our real Heroes? I think so. The research that the Author Robert Matzen is GIGANTIC!

Jan Eric Orme