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xpen...@gmail.com
May 20, 2016, 9:30:58 AM5/20/16
to
Reebe Garofalo says in Rockin' Out: Popular Music In the USA that the
biggest selling rock and roll artists 1955 - 1963 were Presley and
Domino unless you considered Boone rock and roll. Stretching the
definition of what is rock and roll of his 18 Top Ten records only
six were rock and roll. From 11 - 40 there are only three. Boon'e
biggest hits were April Love and Love Letters In the Sand were
straight Pop.
biggest selling rock and roll artists 1955 - 1963 were Presley and
Domino unless you considered Boone rock and roll. Stretching the
definition of what is rock and roll of his 18 Top Ten records only
six were rock and roll. From 11 - 40 there are only three. Boon'e
biggest hits were April Love and Love Letters In the Sand were
straight Pop.
Michael Pendragon
May 20, 2016, 10:54:45 AM5/20/16
to
RWC
May 20, 2016, 11:27:49 AM5/20/16
to
I agree with you on Love Letters..., but not April Love.
Geoff
Bob Roman
May 20, 2016, 1:51:56 PM5/20/16
to
On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 10:54:45 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> They're as much r'n'r as "Twilight Time," "Harbor Lights," and "Smoke Gets
> in Your Eyes" by the Platters.
Jerome Kern's widow thought that the Platters's SGIYE was R&R. And she was not happy about it.
> They're as much r'n'r as "Twilight Time," "Harbor Lights," and "Smoke Gets
> in Your Eyes" by the Platters.
--
BR
Michael Pendragon
May 20, 2016, 2:49:22 PM5/20/16
to
Michael Pendragon
May 20, 2016, 3:00:32 PM5/20/16
to
"Harbor Lights" and "Twilight Time" sound extremely to me. "Smoke" is more operatic.
> I agree with you on Love Letters..., but not April Love.
>
"Love Letters" was a pop song from 1931; "April Love" at least dates from the r'n'r era.
I hear both as pop with a light r'n'r backbeat.
But, of course, the issue here is whether or not they were considered to be r'n'r in 1957. Which they were.
Elvis' "Love Me Tender" is a soft, romantic ballad whose melody dates back to the Civil War. But I'm betting that most of the millions of teens who bought a copy lumped it under the general category of "r'n'r."
Bob Roman
May 20, 2016, 11:29:04 PM5/20/16
to
--
BR
Michael Pendragon
May 21, 2016, 12:26:50 AM5/21/16
to
Pat Boone rocked a helluva lot harder than "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes."
xpen...@gmail.com
May 21, 2016, 7:25:28 AM5/21/16
to
Bob Roman
May 21, 2016, 7:58:52 AM5/21/16
to
On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 12:26:50 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> Pat Boone rocked a helluva lot harder than "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes."
The first seven words of that sentence are striking. Once again you've managed to produce a series of words that have never been strung together before.
> Pat Boone rocked a helluva lot harder than "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes."
The oddity of the claim aside, I'm more amused by a different issue. You are using such a suburban, late-70s/early-80s understanding of "rocking." I guess no one really moves too far from their roots.
The irony of your inability to acknowledge the R&R qualities of SGIYE is that they are the only qualities that support your claim that Johnnie Ray was a forerunner to R&R.
--
BR
Tim
May 21, 2016, 4:28:23 PM5/21/16
to
Michael Pendragon
May 22, 2016, 1:37:19 AM5/22/16
to
On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 7:58:52 AM UTC-4, Bob Roman wrote:
> On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 12:26:50 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > Pat Boone rocked a helluva lot harder than "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes."
>
> The first seven words of that sentence are striking. Once again you've managed to produce a series of words that have never been strung together before.
>
I'm an intellectual trailblazer.
> On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 12:26:50 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> > Pat Boone rocked a helluva lot harder than "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes."
>
> The first seven words of that sentence are striking. Once again you've managed to produce a series of words that have never been strung together before.
>
> The oddity of the claim aside, I'm more amused by a different issue. You are using such a suburban, late-70s/early-80s understanding of "rocking." I guess no one really moves too far from their roots.
>
> The irony of your inability to acknowledge the R&R qualities of SGIYE is that they are the only qualities that support your claim that Johnnie Ray was a forerunner to R&R.
>
Michael Pendragon
May 22, 2016, 1:39:06 AM5/22/16
to
My personal take is that the rise of Beatles killed off r'n'r as a popular musical form.
xpen...@gmail.com
May 22, 2016, 8:57:32 AM5/22/16
to
RWC
May 22, 2016, 9:52:05 AM5/22/16
to
On Fri, 20 May 2016 12:00:32 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
electric guitar from 1:25. The rest is pure pop, not even rock-pop. The pop
sections, the beginning and end of this record, are pro-establishment in their
ambience (because of the traditional and conservative swirling strings, and a
complete lack of sonic elements associated strongly with r'n'r).
50s Rock and Roll is essentially teen music (even if some of us enjoy it for the
rest of our lives :-) with an aura, blatant, subtle or implied, of
anti-establishment social rebellion (mostly harmless at the end of the day).
>"Harbor Lights" and "Twilight Time" sound extremely {similar?} to me. "Smoke" is more operatic.
Twilight Time has a much stronger sonic beat, Mike - putting it higher on the
teen r'n'r jungle music scale!
Equal first at topping this r'n'r scale:
The Sonics - Minus One-Blast Off (Gaity 114) - 1958-9 - you won't like it :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7E_On01MGk
Now compare "Harbor Lights" and "April Love" to these archetypal rock and roll
ballads: {I'm not really expecting you to even sample many of these, Mike, but
the point is made concerning aural r'n'r elements :-}
[the test for selection is that the record naturally evokes a *slow* dance with
one's partner]
Betty Nickell & The Rockets - I'll Never Love Again - 1958
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgkH_a4RL80
Don French - Lonely Saturday Night - 1959
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ3jxiiU-og
The Teddy Bears - Oh Why - 1959
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4KQ7xay6fA
Lonnie Johnson - Tomorrow Night - 1948
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POnWb_fJc4I
Paul Anka - You Are My Destiny - 1958
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEcHD_HdMPs
The Vel-Aires (Donald Woods & The) - Death Of An Angel - 1955
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc0bxLXo78k
Johnny Ace - Pledging My Love - 1955
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT_eOiTwtoQ
The Danleers - One Summer Night - 1958
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT4LJxBBaF0
Rochelle & the Candles - Once Upon A Time - 1960
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5qkrJM1E74
The Cineramas - Life Can Be Beautiful - 1958
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj3lg4c6M2A
Dodie Stevens - Merry, Merry Christmas, Baby - 1960
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nAdMNnGldE
Ketty Lester - Love Letters - 1962
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIweEP3k7bc
Mindy Carson - Since I Met You Baby - 1956
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9XP6cReySk
Rosie And The Originals - Angel Baby - 1961
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu2dAQ3xb8s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KikHXfUanJk
I considered:
Johnnie Ray - Cry - 1951
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2wb31uFmiM
but felt that it was high quality emotive classic pop rather than r'n'r
>
>> I agree with you on Love Letters..., but not April Love.
>>
>
>Again, where are you drawing the line?
>
>"Love Letters" was a pop song from 1931; "April Love" at least dates from the r'n'r era.
>
>I hear both as pop with a light r'n'r backbeat.
The particular slowish clippity-clop beat in "April Love" is not a 'rock' beat
in my mind, it's just a vanilla utilitarian beat - I can imagine hearing this
cantering beat-sound in songs of other genres, such as polka and classic pop.
(The competent but feelingless way Pat Boone sings the opening words 'April
love', backed by an old-fashioned string orchestra, tends to make me wince and
sometimes even say under my breath, in exasperation, "oh god!".)
The ending, starting from 2:14, with that stand-up harp at 2:17, is music so
conservative and old-fashioned that grandpa would likely have approved of it in
1957.
Even the horns in 'April Love" sound fairly antiquated. Boone's singing here
reminds me of those mannered effected vocals from the 20s, a style expected and
appreciated by polite society in their drawing rooms.
>
On the other hand, "Love Letters In The Sand" is one my favorite ballads from
the 50s. There's practically non-stop moving sonic tension in the melody, and
on this occasion I like the way Boone sings it. I'd probably still enjoy this
song if Pat sang it in a foreign language (that wasn't guttural).
>But, of course, the issue here is whether or not they were considered to be r'n'r in 1957. Which they were.
I'll stick my neck out and politely dispute this.
Perhaps you are simply associating '57 BB chart success with r'n'r and/or
associating the name Pat Boone in 1957 with r'n'r.
Both could be ill-conceived notions.
Firstly, perhaps "April Love" to some degree was purchased by adults - who were
not into r'n'r.
Secondly, and here is an idea perhaps new to this newsgroup, teens might have
liked and purchased some music that in their minds was not r'n'r. When I was a
teenager, Mike, I also liked to listen to, for instance, early blues (there was
a night-time radio show once a week...). Now, it's quite possible that teens in
the 50s, especially from middle-middle and upper-middle class families, might
also have liked some predominantly Classic Pop style records (eg 'Teachers Pet'
by Doris Day, one of my faves) - they did not imagine these to be rock and roll
records, they were quite happy to enjoy Classic Pop records that caught their
fancy (and which might also have represented and reflected the cultural values
of their comfortable upbringing).
Loosely speaking, in 1957, Pat Boone, unlike Elvis Presley and Chuck Berry, was
a triple genre artist. Pat Boone was, I agree, r'n'r on a few songs, rock-pop
on others, but sometimes he sang classic pop (such as "April Love").
>Elvis' "Love Me Tender" is a soft, romantic ballad whose melody dates back to the Civil War. But I'm betting that most of the millions of teens who bought a copy lumped it under the general category of "r'n'r."
The history of a song is interesting but irrelevant in this context.
What matters is the current musical arrangement, and the attributes of the
'instrumentation' - including the human voice(s).
"Love Me Tender" is rock and roll because of Elvis' subtle sexually
suggestive/seductive timbre and style of enunciation - lock up your daughters,
when this handsome guy with curled lips, tidy slick hair, and well-crafted
patter is in town :-)
The above is a forced but rewarding attempt to find words to explain an opinion.
But at the end of the day, it's a case of you know it when you hear it.
When listening to music, surely an untold amount of *subconscious* processing
goes on in one's brain (influenced by past exposures and adopted ideas, etc),
but with the brain only telling you the end result of this processing - hey bud,
this is 50s style rock and roll, or, this ain't 50s rock and roll, it's... Then
one tries to consciously rationalize this end result - which is what I've done
here.
Geoff :-)
<michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 11:27:49 AM UTC-4, RWC wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 May 2016 07:54:44 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
>> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 9:30:58 AM UTC-4, xpen...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> Reebe Garofalo says in Rockin' Out: Popular Music In the USA that the
>> >> biggest selling rock and roll artists 1955 - 1963 were Presley and
>> >> Domino unless you considered Boone rock and roll. Stretching the
>> >> definition of what is rock and roll of his 18 Top Ten records only
>> >> six were rock and roll. From 11 - 40 there are only three. Boon'e
>> >> biggest hits were April Love and Love Letters In the Sand were
>> >> straight Pop.
>> >
>> >They're as much r'n'r as "Twilight Time," "Harbor Lights," and "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes" by the Platters.
>>
>> "Harbor Lights" is not r'n'r.
>>
Except between approx 0:52 and 2:00 thanks to the piano and then the sporadic
>On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 11:27:49 AM UTC-4, RWC wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 May 2016 07:54:44 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
>> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 9:30:58 AM UTC-4, xpen...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> Reebe Garofalo says in Rockin' Out: Popular Music In the USA that the
>> >> biggest selling rock and roll artists 1955 - 1963 were Presley and
>> >> Domino unless you considered Boone rock and roll. Stretching the
>> >> definition of what is rock and roll of his 18 Top Ten records only
>> >> six were rock and roll. From 11 - 40 there are only three. Boon'e
>> >> biggest hits were April Love and Love Letters In the Sand were
>> >> straight Pop.
>> >
>> >They're as much r'n'r as "Twilight Time," "Harbor Lights," and "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes" by the Platters.
>>
>> "Harbor Lights" is not r'n'r.
>>
electric guitar from 1:25. The rest is pure pop, not even rock-pop. The pop
sections, the beginning and end of this record, are pro-establishment in their
ambience (because of the traditional and conservative swirling strings, and a
complete lack of sonic elements associated strongly with r'n'r).
50s Rock and Roll is essentially teen music (even if some of us enjoy it for the
rest of our lives :-) with an aura, blatant, subtle or implied, of
anti-establishment social rebellion (mostly harmless at the end of the day).
>
>Where are you drawing the line?
>
The degree of perceived conservatism for one.
>Where are you drawing the line?
>
>"Harbor Lights" and "Twilight Time" sound extremely {similar?} to me. "Smoke" is more operatic.
Twilight Time has a much stronger sonic beat, Mike - putting it higher on the
teen r'n'r jungle music scale!
Equal first at topping this r'n'r scale:
The Sonics - Minus One-Blast Off (Gaity 114) - 1958-9 - you won't like it :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7E_On01MGk
Now compare "Harbor Lights" and "April Love" to these archetypal rock and roll
ballads: {I'm not really expecting you to even sample many of these, Mike, but
the point is made concerning aural r'n'r elements :-}
[the test for selection is that the record naturally evokes a *slow* dance with
one's partner]
Betty Nickell & The Rockets - I'll Never Love Again - 1958
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgkH_a4RL80
Don French - Lonely Saturday Night - 1959
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ3jxiiU-og
The Teddy Bears - Oh Why - 1959
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4KQ7xay6fA
Lonnie Johnson - Tomorrow Night - 1948
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POnWb_fJc4I
Paul Anka - You Are My Destiny - 1958
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEcHD_HdMPs
The Vel-Aires (Donald Woods & The) - Death Of An Angel - 1955
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc0bxLXo78k
Johnny Ace - Pledging My Love - 1955
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT_eOiTwtoQ
The Danleers - One Summer Night - 1958
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT4LJxBBaF0
Rochelle & the Candles - Once Upon A Time - 1960
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5qkrJM1E74
The Cineramas - Life Can Be Beautiful - 1958
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj3lg4c6M2A
Dodie Stevens - Merry, Merry Christmas, Baby - 1960
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nAdMNnGldE
Ketty Lester - Love Letters - 1962
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIweEP3k7bc
Mindy Carson - Since I Met You Baby - 1956
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9XP6cReySk
Rosie And The Originals - Angel Baby - 1961
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu2dAQ3xb8s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KikHXfUanJk
I considered:
Johnnie Ray - Cry - 1951
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2wb31uFmiM
but felt that it was high quality emotive classic pop rather than r'n'r
>
>> I agree with you on Love Letters..., but not April Love.
>>
>
>Again, where are you drawing the line?
>
>"Love Letters" was a pop song from 1931; "April Love" at least dates from the r'n'r era.
>
>I hear both as pop with a light r'n'r backbeat.
in my mind, it's just a vanilla utilitarian beat - I can imagine hearing this
cantering beat-sound in songs of other genres, such as polka and classic pop.
(The competent but feelingless way Pat Boone sings the opening words 'April
love', backed by an old-fashioned string orchestra, tends to make me wince and
sometimes even say under my breath, in exasperation, "oh god!".)
The ending, starting from 2:14, with that stand-up harp at 2:17, is music so
conservative and old-fashioned that grandpa would likely have approved of it in
1957.
Even the horns in 'April Love" sound fairly antiquated. Boone's singing here
reminds me of those mannered effected vocals from the 20s, a style expected and
appreciated by polite society in their drawing rooms.
>
On the other hand, "Love Letters In The Sand" is one my favorite ballads from
the 50s. There's practically non-stop moving sonic tension in the melody, and
on this occasion I like the way Boone sings it. I'd probably still enjoy this
song if Pat sang it in a foreign language (that wasn't guttural).
>But, of course, the issue here is whether or not they were considered to be r'n'r in 1957. Which they were.
Perhaps you are simply associating '57 BB chart success with r'n'r and/or
associating the name Pat Boone in 1957 with r'n'r.
Both could be ill-conceived notions.
Firstly, perhaps "April Love" to some degree was purchased by adults - who were
not into r'n'r.
Secondly, and here is an idea perhaps new to this newsgroup, teens might have
liked and purchased some music that in their minds was not r'n'r. When I was a
teenager, Mike, I also liked to listen to, for instance, early blues (there was
a night-time radio show once a week...). Now, it's quite possible that teens in
the 50s, especially from middle-middle and upper-middle class families, might
also have liked some predominantly Classic Pop style records (eg 'Teachers Pet'
by Doris Day, one of my faves) - they did not imagine these to be rock and roll
records, they were quite happy to enjoy Classic Pop records that caught their
fancy (and which might also have represented and reflected the cultural values
of their comfortable upbringing).
Loosely speaking, in 1957, Pat Boone, unlike Elvis Presley and Chuck Berry, was
a triple genre artist. Pat Boone was, I agree, r'n'r on a few songs, rock-pop
on others, but sometimes he sang classic pop (such as "April Love").
>Elvis' "Love Me Tender" is a soft, romantic ballad whose melody dates back to the Civil War. But I'm betting that most of the millions of teens who bought a copy lumped it under the general category of "r'n'r."
What matters is the current musical arrangement, and the attributes of the
'instrumentation' - including the human voice(s).
"Love Me Tender" is rock and roll because of Elvis' subtle sexually
suggestive/seductive timbre and style of enunciation - lock up your daughters,
when this handsome guy with curled lips, tidy slick hair, and well-crafted
patter is in town :-)
The above is a forced but rewarding attempt to find words to explain an opinion.
But at the end of the day, it's a case of you know it when you hear it.
When listening to music, surely an untold amount of *subconscious* processing
goes on in one's brain (influenced by past exposures and adopted ideas, etc),
but with the brain only telling you the end result of this processing - hey bud,
this is 50s style rock and roll, or, this ain't 50s rock and roll, it's... Then
one tries to consciously rationalize this end result - which is what I've done
here.
Geoff :-)
RWC
May 22, 2016, 11:07:12 AM5/22/16
to
On Sun, 22 May 2016 23:49:11 +1000, RWC wrote:
>Loosely speaking, in 1957, Pat Boone, unlike Elvis Presley and Chuck Berry, was
>a triple genre artist. Pat Boone was, I agree, r'n'r on a few songs, rock-pop
>on others, but sometimes he sang classic pop (such as "April Love").
>
1957 singles:
>Loosely speaking, in 1957, Pat Boone, unlike Elvis Presley and Chuck Berry, was
>a triple genre artist. Pat Boone was, I agree, r'n'r on a few songs, rock-pop
>on others, but sometimes he sang classic pop (such as "April Love").
>
"Why Baby Why" - rock-pop
"I'm Waiting Just for You" - rock and roll lite {bluesy}
"Love Letters in the Sand" - rock-pop
"Bernardine" - rock-pop
"Remember You're Mine" - rock-pop
"There's a Gold Mine in the Sky" - rock-pop
"April Love" - classic pop
"When the Swallows Come Back to Capistrano" - rock-pop
Michael Pendragon
May 22, 2016, 1:47:24 PM5/22/16
to
On Sunday, May 22, 2016 at 9:52:05 AM UTC-4, RWC wrote:
> On Fri, 20 May 2016 12:00:32 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 11:27:49 AM UTC-4, RWC wrote:
> >> On Fri, 20 May 2016 07:54:44 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
> >> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 9:30:58 AM UTC-4, xpen...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> Reebe Garofalo says in Rockin' Out: Popular Music In the USA that the
> >> >> biggest selling rock and roll artists 1955 - 1963 were Presley and
> >> >> Domino unless you considered Boone rock and roll. Stretching the
> >> >> definition of what is rock and roll of his 18 Top Ten records only
> >> >> six were rock and roll. From 11 - 40 there are only three. Boon'e
> >> >> biggest hits were April Love and Love Letters In the Sand were
> >> >> straight Pop.
> >> >
> >> >They're as much r'n'r as "Twilight Time," "Harbor Lights," and "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes" by the Platters.
> >>
> >> "Harbor Lights" is not r'n'r.
> >>
> Except between approx 0:52 and 2:00 thanks to the piano and then the sporadic
> electric guitar from 1:25.
Between 2:01 and 2:04 the piano achieves a lite r'n'r sound (but three seconds does not a "r'n'r" record make). It's Liberace-style romance everywhere else. The sporadic guitar is simply a muted version of the Hawaiian style that appears on 100s of pop records by Bing Crosby, Dorothy Lamour, et al.
> On Fri, 20 May 2016 12:00:32 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 11:27:49 AM UTC-4, RWC wrote:
> >> On Fri, 20 May 2016 07:54:44 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
> >> <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Friday, May 20, 2016 at 9:30:58 AM UTC-4, xpen...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >> Reebe Garofalo says in Rockin' Out: Popular Music In the USA that the
> >> >> biggest selling rock and roll artists 1955 - 1963 were Presley and
> >> >> Domino unless you considered Boone rock and roll. Stretching the
> >> >> definition of what is rock and roll of his 18 Top Ten records only
> >> >> six were rock and roll. From 11 - 40 there are only three. Boon'e
> >> >> biggest hits were April Love and Love Letters In the Sand were
> >> >> straight Pop.
> >> >
> >> >They're as much r'n'r as "Twilight Time," "Harbor Lights," and "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes" by the Platters.
> >>
> >> "Harbor Lights" is not r'n'r.
> >>
> Except between approx 0:52 and 2:00 thanks to the piano and then the sporadic
> electric guitar from 1:25.
> The rest is pure pop, not even rock-pop. The pop
> sections, the beginning and end of this record, are pro-establishment in their
> ambience (because of the traditional and conservative swirling strings, and a
> complete lack of sonic elements associated strongly with r'n'r).
> 50s Rock and Roll is essentially teen music (even if some of us enjoy it for the
> rest of our lives :-)
> with an aura, blatant, subtle or implied, of
> anti-establishment social rebellion (mostly harmless at the end of the day).
> >
> >Where are you drawing the line?
> >
> The degree of perceived conservatism for one.
> >"Harbor Lights" and "Twilight Time" sound extremely {similar?} to me. "Smoke" is more operatic.
>
> Twilight Time has a much stronger sonic beat, Mike - putting it higher on the
> teen r'n'r jungle music scale!
> Equal first at topping this r'n'r scale:
> The Sonics - Minus One-Blast Off (Gaity 114) - 1958-9 - you won't like it :-)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7E_On01MGk
>
I would like it, however, if the vocal and orchestration were better.
Here's a similar sounding RAB song called "Blast Off" that's been done with style:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhPjqnJUXME
> Now compare "Harbor Lights" and "April Love" to these archetypal rock and roll
> ballads: {I'm not really expecting you to even sample many of these, Mike, but
> the point is made concerning aural r'n'r elements :-}
>
> [the test for selection is that the record naturally evokes a *slow* dance with
> one's partner]
>
> Betty Nickell & The Rockets - I'll Never Love Again - 1958
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgkH_a4RL80
A western style song. French's vocal wavers between a Slim Whitman impersonation and an Elvis. It rocks more that "April Love," mostly because of it's highly emotive delivery, like that of ... "Cry."
I think you're just responding to the prominent guitar that virtually duets with the lead vocal. It's a very soft ballad otherwise.
No ... this isn't r'n'r. If Johnson didn't have such an off-puttingly nasal voice, this could be from a 1930s record by The Ink Spots or The Mills Brothers.
"April Love" out-rocks this one.
Pop rock with a big orchestra (Don Costa) and chorus, and Anka's giving out with a big-voiced, big emotioned style of delivery that came straight from Johnnie Ray.
It out-rocks "April Love" by a hair.
> The Vel-Aires (Donald Woods & The) - Death Of An Angel - 1955
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc0bxLXo78k
It's not more r'n'r roll than "April Love," just bluesier.
Plinkety-plink. "April Love" is heavy metal compared to this.
The ultimate doo-wop song (according to a contest on CBS FM many years ago).
It out-doo-wops "April Love." But doo-wop is a sub-genre of r'n'r.
More doo-wop. Pat Boone is a solo artist; you can't really compare him to doo-wop groups.
Same here. These doo-wop songs aren't really rocking. They're pretty sounding ballads with their own genre conventions.
Pop with a lite backbeat. Think I'll save a copy of this one.
I've got 22 versions of this song which was penned for one of my all-time favorite movies in 1945. Lester's version, included among the 22, has a slightly edgy beat. It's bluesier than "April Love," not more r'n'r.
A traditional pop singer backed by Ray Conniff, who added a lite r'n'r backbeat to the songs of many traditional pop artists at Columbia. Come to think of it, half the songs you've picked could be Ray Conniff arrangements.
> Rosie And The Originals - Angel Baby - 1961
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu2dAQ3xb8s
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KikHXfUanJk
> I considered:
> Johnnie Ray - Cry - 1951
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2wb31uFmiM
> but felt that it was high quality emotive classic pop rather than r'n'r
>
> >> I agree with you on Love Letters..., but not April Love.
> >>
> >
> >Again, where are you drawing the line?
> >
> >"Love Letters" was a pop song from 1931; "April Love" at least dates from the r'n'r era.
> >
> >I hear both as pop with a light r'n'r backbeat.
>
> The particular slowish clippity-clop beat in "April Love" is not a 'rock' beat
> in my mind, it's just a vanilla utilitarian beat - I can imagine hearing this
> cantering beat-sound in songs of other genres, such as polka and classic pop.
> (The competent but feelingless way Pat Boone sings the opening words 'April
> love', backed by an old-fashioned string orchestra, tends to make me wince and
> sometimes even say under my breath, in exasperation, "oh god!".)
> The ending, starting from 2:14, with that stand-up harp at 2:17, is music so
> conservative and old-fashioned that grandpa would likely have approved of it in
> 1957.
>
> Even the horns in 'April Love" sound fairly antiquated. Boone's singing here
> reminds me of those mannered effected vocals from the 20s, a style expected and
> appreciated by polite society in their drawing rooms.
> >
> On the other hand, "Love Letters In The Sand" is one my favorite ballads from
> the 50s. There's practically non-stop moving sonic tension in the melody, and
> on this occasion I like the way Boone sings it. I'd probably still enjoy this
> song if Pat sang it in a foreign language (that wasn't guttural).
>
> >But, of course, the issue here is whether or not they were considered to be r'n'r in 1957. Which they were.
>
> I'll stick my neck out and politely dispute this.
> Perhaps you are simply associating '57 BB chart success with r'n'r and/or
> associating the name Pat Boone in 1957 with r'n'r.
> Both could be ill-conceived notions.
> Firstly, perhaps "April Love" to some degree was purchased by adults - who were
> not into r'n'r.
> Secondly, and here is an idea perhaps new to this newsgroup, teens might have
> liked and purchased some music that in their minds was not r'n'r. When I was a
> teenager, Mike, I also liked to listen to, for instance, early blues (there was
> a night-time radio show once a week...). Now, it's quite possible that teens in
> the 50s, especially from middle-middle and upper-middle class families, might
> also have liked some predominantly Classic Pop style records (eg 'Teachers Pet'
> by Doris Day, one of my faves) - they did not imagine these to be rock and roll
> records, they were quite happy to enjoy Classic Pop records that caught their
> fancy (and which might also have represented and reflected the cultural values
> of their comfortable upbringing).
I'd call Pat Boone's 1957 album "Pat Boone Sings Irving Berlin" straight up trad pop.
"April Love," otoh, contains some lite r'n'r elements.
> Loosely speaking, in 1957, Pat Boone, unlike Elvis Presley and Chuck Berry, was
> a triple genre artist. Pat Boone was, I agree, r'n'r on a few songs, rock-pop
> on others, but sometimes he sang classic pop (such as "April Love").
>
> >Elvis' "Love Me Tender" is a soft, romantic ballad whose melody dates back to the Civil War. But I'm betting that most of the millions of teens who bought a copy lumped it under the general category of "r'n'r."
>
> The history of a song is interesting but irrelevant in this context.
> What matters is the current musical arrangement, and the attributes of the
> 'instrumentation' - including the human voice(s).
> "Love Me Tender" is rock and roll because of Elvis' subtle sexually
> suggestive/seductive timbre and style of enunciation - lock up your daughters,
> when this handsome guy with curled lips, tidy slick hair, and well-crafted
> patter is in town :-)
> The above is a forced but rewarding attempt to find words to explain an opinion.
> But at the end of the day, it's a case of you know it when you hear it.
> When listening to music, surely an untold amount of *subconscious* processing
> goes on in one's brain (influenced by past exposures and adopted ideas, etc),
> but with the brain only telling you the end result of this processing - hey bud,
> this is 50s style rock and roll, or, this ain't 50s rock and roll, it's... Then
> one tries to consciously rationalize this end result - which is what I've done
> here.
RWC
May 23, 2016, 12:45:44 AM5/23/16
to
On Sun, 22 May 2016 10:47:23 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
<michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
Mike, I've been having a problem of late reading some postings from you (and one
from Eric Ramon in a similar ungainly format).
This initial response from you, Mike, is okay (although one has to majorly
scroll to the right to read some sentences - but one can live with that):
>Where are you drawing the line?
>"Harbor Lights" and "Twilight Time" sound extremely to me. "Smoke" is more operatic.
But your last response (and the Eric Ramon one) looks like this (lines abruptly
cut off mid-word with an = character, and note the =20):
The Platters were a traditional pop group who incorporated a handful of r'n=
'r elements into their early songs. As I've said before, they were essenti=
ally The Ink Spots with a lite backbeat. Their early hits ("Only You," "Th=
e Great Pretender") had a pronounced backbeat throughout, making them pop r=
ock. Their later (50s) hits tended to be straight pop. =20
Your recent response to the thread "Covers", included this displayed text:
a description of the music that Belz happens to like, but no real understan=
ding of =E2=80=9Cthe music as art and in terms of art.=E2=80=9D - Barry Gew=
en 1970
An off-putting format that disturbs any natural flow of conversation - in other
words, I'm not inclined to to keep the discussion going.
(this is not your fault, of course).
***
Just out of keen interest, Mike, what is the difference between the method you
used to send the initial readable response above, and the awkward to read "="
posting?
***
(perhaps my version of Agent does not cater for what Google is doing these days
:-)
Geoff
<michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
Mike, I've been having a problem of late reading some postings from you (and one
from Eric Ramon in a similar ungainly format).
This initial response from you, Mike, is okay (although one has to majorly
scroll to the right to read some sentences - but one can live with that):
>Where are you drawing the line?
But your last response (and the Eric Ramon one) looks like this (lines abruptly
cut off mid-word with an = character, and note the =20):
The Platters were a traditional pop group who incorporated a handful of r'n=
'r elements into their early songs. As I've said before, they were essenti=
ally The Ink Spots with a lite backbeat. Their early hits ("Only You," "Th=
e Great Pretender") had a pronounced backbeat throughout, making them pop r=
ock. Their later (50s) hits tended to be straight pop. =20
Your recent response to the thread "Covers", included this displayed text:
a description of the music that Belz happens to like, but no real understan=
ding of =E2=80=9Cthe music as art and in terms of art.=E2=80=9D - Barry Gew=
en 1970
An off-putting format that disturbs any natural flow of conversation - in other
words, I'm not inclined to to keep the discussion going.
(this is not your fault, of course).
***
Just out of keen interest, Mike, what is the difference between the method you
used to send the initial readable response above, and the awkward to read "="
posting?
***
(perhaps my version of Agent does not cater for what Google is doing these days
:-)
Geoff
RWC
May 23, 2016, 1:04:12 AM5/23/16
to
On Mon, 23 May 2016 14:42:50 +1000, RWC wrote:
>On Sun, 22 May 2016 10:47:23 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
><michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Mike, I've been having a problem of late reading some postings from you (and one
>from Eric Ramon in a similar ungainly format).
>
Oops! I've fixed my "=" problem by simply turning off the 'Display As Raw
>On Sun, 22 May 2016 10:47:23 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
><michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Mike, I've been having a problem of late reading some postings from you (and one
>from Eric Ramon in a similar ungainly format).
>
Message' option in Agent. And fixed the long sentences by turning on Word Wrap.
(How obvious in hindsight, what a dummy, sorry)
Geoff
Roger Ford
May 23, 2016, 8:33:14 AM5/23/16
to
On Sat, 21 May 2016 13:28:23 -0700 (PDT), Tim
generally manages to disregard as though it never happened,a very
substantial percentage of the music that (unlike off-topic 1964 music
on here) IS on-topic for that group---- namely the huge amount of
black 60's r&b and soul that rates nary a mention on there
ROGER FORD
-----------------------
"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "b" in my e-mail address (mari...@bblueyonder.co.uk).
Please delete same before responding.Thank you!
xpen...@gmail.com
May 23, 2016, 12:30:31 PM5/23/16
to
On Mon, 23 May 2016 12:32:52 GMT, mari...@bblueyonder.co.uk (Roger
Ford) wrote:
>On Sat, 21 May 2016 13:28:23 -0700 (PDT), Tim
><tdwill...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 4:58:52 AM UTC-7, Bob Roman wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 12:26:50 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>
>>> > Pat Boone rocked a helluva lot harder than "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes."
>>>
>>> The first seven words of that sentence are striking. Once again you've managed to produce a series of words that have never been strung together before.
>>>
>>> The oddity of the claim aside, I'm more amused by a different issue. You are using such a suburban, late-70s/early-80s understanding of "rocking." I guess no one really moves too far from their roots.
>>>
>>> The irony of your inability to acknowledge the R&R qualities of SGIYE is that they are the only qualities that support your claim that Johnnie Ray was a forerunner to R&R.
>>>
>>> --
>>> BR
>>
>>You all purposefully disregard 1964 onward as though it never happened. <sigh?
>
>Yes,I guess we should be more like the wonderful 60's group that
>generally manages to disregard as though it never happened,a very
>substantial percentage of the music that (unlike off-topic 1964 music
>on here) IS on-topic for that group---- namely the huge amount of
>black 60's r&b and soul that rates nary a mention on there
>
That group is very white rock oriented. With some there their attitude
Ford) wrote:
>On Sat, 21 May 2016 13:28:23 -0700 (PDT), Tim
><tdwill...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 4:58:52 AM UTC-7, Bob Roman wrote:
>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 12:26:50 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>
>>> > Pat Boone rocked a helluva lot harder than "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes."
>>>
>>> The first seven words of that sentence are striking. Once again you've managed to produce a series of words that have never been strung together before.
>>>
>>> The oddity of the claim aside, I'm more amused by a different issue. You are using such a suburban, late-70s/early-80s understanding of "rocking." I guess no one really moves too far from their roots.
>>>
>>> The irony of your inability to acknowledge the R&R qualities of SGIYE is that they are the only qualities that support your claim that Johnnie Ray was a forerunner to R&R.
>>>
>>> --
>>> BR
>>
>>You all purposefully disregard 1964 onward as though it never happened. <sigh?
>
>Yes,I guess we should be more like the wonderful 60's group that
>generally manages to disregard as though it never happened,a very
>substantial percentage of the music that (unlike off-topic 1964 music
>on here) IS on-topic for that group---- namely the huge amount of
>black 60's r&b and soul that rates nary a mention on there
>
to paraphrase John Lennon "Before the Beatles there was nothing. Nor
was there after. I don't believe that blues influenced groups like the
Stones, Animals et al have been discussed in the 60s group.
Jim Colegrove
May 23, 2016, 3:07:48 PM5/23/16
to
On Mon, 23 May 2016 12:30:50 -0400, xpen...@gmail.com wrote:
>On Mon, 23 May 2016 12:32:52 GMT, mari...@bblueyonder.co.uk (Roger
>Ford) wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 21 May 2016 13:28:23 -0700 (PDT), Tim
>><tdwill...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 4:58:52 AM UTC-7, Bob Roman wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 12:26:50 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Pat Boone rocked a helluva lot harder than "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes."
>>>>
>>>> The first seven words of that sentence are striking. Once again you've managed to produce a series of words that have never been strung together before.
>>>>
>>>> The oddity of the claim aside, I'm more amused by a different issue. You are using such a suburban, late-70s/early-80s understanding of "rocking." I guess no one really moves too far from their roots.
>>>>
>>>> The irony of your inability to acknowledge the R&R qualities of SGIYE is that they are the only qualities that support your claim that Johnnie Ray was a forerunner to R&R.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> BR
>>>
>>>You all purposefully disregard 1964 onward as though it never happened. <sigh?
>>
>>Yes,I guess we should be more like the wonderful 60's group that
>>generally manages to disregard as though it never happened,a very
>>substantial percentage of the music that (unlike off-topic 1964 music
>>on here) IS on-topic for that group---- namely the huge amount of
>>black 60's r&b and soul that rates nary a mention on there
>>
>That group is very white rock oriented. With some there their attitude
>to paraphrase John Lennon "Before the Beatles there was nothing. Nor
>was there after. I don't believe that blues influenced groups like the
>Stones, Animals et al have been discussed in the 60s group.
>>
By my estimation the Animals haven't been brought up in about 6 years
>On Mon, 23 May 2016 12:32:52 GMT, mari...@bblueyonder.co.uk (Roger
>Ford) wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 21 May 2016 13:28:23 -0700 (PDT), Tim
>><tdwill...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 4:58:52 AM UTC-7, Bob Roman wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, May 21, 2016 at 12:26:50 AM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Pat Boone rocked a helluva lot harder than "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes."
>>>>
>>>> The first seven words of that sentence are striking. Once again you've managed to produce a series of words that have never been strung together before.
>>>>
>>>> The oddity of the claim aside, I'm more amused by a different issue. You are using such a suburban, late-70s/early-80s understanding of "rocking." I guess no one really moves too far from their roots.
>>>>
>>>> The irony of your inability to acknowledge the R&R qualities of SGIYE is that they are the only qualities that support your claim that Johnnie Ray was a forerunner to R&R.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> BR
>>>
>>>You all purposefully disregard 1964 onward as though it never happened. <sigh?
>>
>>Yes,I guess we should be more like the wonderful 60's group that
>>generally manages to disregard as though it never happened,a very
>>substantial percentage of the music that (unlike off-topic 1964 music
>>on here) IS on-topic for that group---- namely the huge amount of
>>black 60's r&b and soul that rates nary a mention on there
>>
>That group is very white rock oriented. With some there their attitude
>to paraphrase John Lennon "Before the Beatles there was nothing. Nor
>was there after. I don't believe that blues influenced groups like the
>Stones, Animals et al have been discussed in the 60s group.
>>
in the 60s group. The Stones have been mentioned as recent as 2 years
ago.
>>ROGER FORD
>>-----------------------
>>
>>"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
>>an extra "b" in my e-mail address (mari...@bblueyonder.co.uk).
>>Please delete same before responding.Thank you!
http://www.thecoolgroove.com
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