Best CD freebie to date from UNCUT Mag: Tom Waits' Jukebox

[ordina...@gmail.com]

Don't miss this one...as the Mag says, as arcane and eclectic a
collection as they have ever put together; I would add as strange a
various artists collection as you'll EVER come across, but holds
together and sequences very well, compelling and engaging throughout.
5 numbers recorded in 1950s or 1940s. Why it even has something from
the Swing Era DDD list:

http://www.discogs.com/Various-Tom-Waits-Jukebox/release/3196189

http://compare.ebay.com/like/390366620064?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar

Great interview with Waits, also Slade, and a great write-up on The
Last Poets.

Worth the money to plunk down

[ordina...@gmail.com]

On Nov 25, 3:08 pm, "ordinaryt...@gmail.com" <ordinaryt...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Don't miss this one...as the Mag says, as arcane and eclectic a
> collection as they have ever put together;  I would add as strange a
> various artists collection as you'll EVER come across, but holds
> together and sequences very well, compelling and engaging throughout.
> 5 numbers recorded in 1950s or 1940s.   Why it even has something from
> the Swing Era DDD list:
>
> http://www.discogs.com/Various-Tom-Waits-Jukebox/release/3196189
>

> http://compare.ebay.com/like/390366620064?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceIt...

>
> Great interview with Waits, also Slade, and a great write-up on The
> Last Poets.
>
> Worth the money to plunk down

Don't miss his new album, either. Here is "Chicago" from "Bad As Me":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAjtkyGVDxc

[Dean F.]

Personally, I can't stand Tom Waits. He's one of the most overrated
performers EVER!!!

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On Nov 25, 4:15 pm, "Dean F." <soulexpr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Personally, I can't stand Tom Waits. He's one of the most overrated
> performers EVER!!!

Yes, I agree, he's fucking awful.

[ordina...@gmail.com]

Do empty (shallow?) vessels make the loudest noise? The first to
start chirpin', at least. Maybe we should nickname you too when you
act in unison this way "Sturm Und Drang"?

Not everyone agrees with you. In fact other knowledgeable people can
take quite opposite reaction to Waits:

http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_artist.php?name=Tom+Waits

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/arts/music/tom-waitss-new-album-bad-as-me.html?pagewanted=all
"...Mr. Waits is cherished by his generation of musicians, as skillful
songwriter and uncompromising outsider..."

Notice the word "cherished"

At Amazon.com, the new album is garnering 4 1/2 stars on average
through 47 reviews, and many are replying to those reviews favorably,
too, I might add:

http://www.amazon.com/Bad-As-Me-Limited-Deluxe/product-reviews/B005IGVYUG/ref=ep_readall_reviews?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

When you want a narrow point of view, ask somebody with tunnel vision
(or tunnel ears) like B & D, here.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On Nov 25, 5:29 pm, "ordinaryt...@gmail.com" <ordinaryt...@gmail.com>

wrote:
> On Nov 25, 4:22 pm, The Bloomfield Bloviator <Savo...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 25, 4:15 pm, "Dean F." <soulexpr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Personally, I can't stand Tom Waits. He's one of the most overrated
> > > performers EVER!!!
>
> > Yes, I agree, he's fucking awful.
>
> Do empty (shallow?) vessels make the loudest noise?   The first to
> start chirpin', at least.   Maybe we should nickname you too when you
> act in unison this way "Sturm Und Drang"?
>
> Not everyone agrees with you.   In fact other knowledgeable people can
> take quite opposite reaction to Waits:
>
> http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_artist.php?name=Tom+Waits

Christgau is the same schmuck who dismisses 90% of the records we talk
about in the 50s group. Fuck him.

[ordina...@gmail.com]

Why does David Letterman have him some umpteen dozen (more or less)
times every time Waits has new album going back since Letterman had a
show (Tomorrow or Late Night), etc.? Again and again and again?

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On Nov 25, 9:00 pm, "ordinaryt...@gmail.com" <ordinaryt...@gmail.com>

Probably because Lettermen has shit taste in music and so do the
yuppies who watch his show.

[DianeE]

<ordina...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f36395a1-b4ec-4e21...@o13g2000vbo.googlegroups.com...

---------------
Me three, by the way. I've hated Waits' croaking vocals and pretentious
lyrics since the 70s.

DianeE

[Michael Pendragon]

I'm kind of on the fence with this one.

I've got the "One from the Heart" album (for Crystal Gayle), but can
appreciate Waits' vocals as well. Yes, his voice is ... an acquired
taste ... but no harder to adapt to than those of Louis Armstrong,
Jimmy Durante, Leon Redbone, Ray Charles, Bob Dylan, Little Richard,
or Hank Williams -- and more palatable than those of Joe Cocker, Janis
Joplin, Howlin' Wolf, or Larry "Wild Man" Fischer. The songs (penned
by Waits) are captivating while they're playing, but only snatches
really stick in my memory.

In short, I like the songs I've got by him well enough ... but not
enough to hunt out any others.

[Dean F.]

On Nov 25, 5:29 pm, "ordinaryt...@gmail.com" <ordinaryt...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Do empty (shallow?) vessels make the loudest noise?

Do androids dream of electric sheep? Go back on your Lithtium, Tom.

> The first to start chirpin', at least.   Maybe we should nickname you too when you
> act in unison this way "Sturm Und Drang"?

I've never liked Tom Waits, and I felt that way long before I knew
Bruce even existed. If Grossberg happens to agree with my assessment
of Waits as the audio equivalent of sandpaper against the eyeball,
then so much the better.

> Not everyone agrees with you.   In fact other knowledgeable people can
> take quite opposite reaction to Waits:

So, what's your point? That I'm not allowed to dislike an artist who
happens to be a darling of the critics?

> http://www.robertchristgau.com/get_artist.php?name=Tom+Waits

As Bruce already alluded to, Christgau is one of those stick-up-the-
ass critics who gives five stars to any white artist's exercise in
pretentious self-indulgence. Thanks to performers like Tom Waits, the
Robert Christgaus of this world will never have work a real job.

> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/arts/music/tom-waitss-new-album-bad...

> "...Mr. Waits is cherished by his generation of musicians, as skillful
> songwriter and uncompromising outsider..."
>
> Notice the word "cherished"

Again, so what? I'm not allowed to dislike Waits because certain other
people think he's God's gift to American music? If you want the New
York Times to do your thinking for you, go right ahead. But I choose
to do my own damned thinking, thank you very much.

> At Amazon.com, the new album is garnering 4 1/2 stars on average
> through 47 reviews, and many are replying to those reviews favorably,
> too, I might add:
>

> http://www.amazon.com/Bad-As-Me-Limited-Deluxe/product-reviews/B005IG...

The Oscar voters chose "Out of Africa" as Best Picture for 1985, but
the goddamned thing bored me to tears. So I won't be adding the DVD to
my collection, no matter how many 4.5-star reviews it gets at Amazon.
The same goes for Tom Waits, or any other critical darling whose music
leaves me cold. If you disapprove, Tom, it's none of my concern.

> When you want a narrow point of view, ask somebody with tunnel vision
> (or tunnel ears) like B & D, here.

Fuck you, Tom-Larry-Lars-Nick. (Or whatever pseudonym you've now
adopted in the hope of keeping the CIA from spiking your oatmeal with
gonorrhea.)

[Dean F.]

On Nov 25, 11:16 pm, "DianeE" <TiredOfS...@SorryFolks.com> wrote:

> Me three, by the way.  I've hated Waits' croaking vocals and pretentious
> lyrics since the 70s.

I anxiously await Tom's inevitable snide comment about Diane being
Bruce's girlfriend.

[ordina...@gmail.com]

Are you sure you aging gray matter is not conflating me with Fred
Fartmore?

I can't remember making an " inevitable snide comment about Diane
being
Bruce's girlfriend.", that is, tying her lack of some odd or another
virtue, musical or otherwise, to the fact of being connected to Bruce.
Once or twice, when she started to unload on me,
I put some in the scales in an attempt to counter, or back her off, or
put her back on her heels, but I can't remember a sharp exchange
happening between us for years, and I'd rather
let water under the dam go, as I presume it has already flowed away a
long time ago, but Dino, it looks like you're trying to open old
wounds for your own pleasure, and if that is the
case or even partially the case, let me make a well-deserved snide
remark in YOUR direction and call you out for the shit you are.

Nick

[Just_Dirt]

>
>"The Bloomfield Bloviator" <Sav...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:0136bbac-b564-47e3...@o9g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...

In a discussion I had with you about Christgau you claimed he dissed the
Moonglows @ the time of their induction into the R&R hall of fame.

I checked it out and he had given a 90s reissue of theirs an A or an A-.

In other words, some dipshit friend of yours who can't read misinterpreted
something Christgau said. That's easy to see, because Christgau's style is
more complex than you and your friends can follow. He doesn't fill in all
the gaps you need filled in for you.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On Nov 28, 1:56 pm, "Just_Dirt" <just_d...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >"The Bloomfield Bloviator" <Savo...@aol.com> wrote in message

No, he disrespected the moonglows, and then later on when he realized
that he had no idea what he was talking about, he gave a reissue a
good mark to cover his ass.

[Dean F.]

On Nov 28, 1:56 pm, "Just_Dirt" <just_d...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In other words, some dipshit friend of yours who can't read misinterpreted
> something Christgau said. That's easy to see, because Christgau's style is
> more complex than you and your friends can follow. He doesn't fill in all
> the gaps you need filled in for you.

If I could read and understand both "Crime and Punishment" and "The
Gulag Archipelago," then I doubt Christgau would be much of a problem
for me.

When you assume....

[Just_Dirt]

> >
> > >Christgau is the same schmuck who dismisses 90% of the records we talk
> > >about in the 50s group. Fuck him.
> >
> > In a discussion I had with you about Christgau you claimed he dissed the
> > Moonglows @ the time of their induction into the R&R hall of fame.
> >
> > I checked it out and he had given a 90s reissue of theirs an A or an A-.
> >
> > In other words, some dipshit friend of yours who can't read
> > misinterpreted
> > something Christgau said. That's easy to see, because Christgau's style
> > is
> > more complex than you and your friends can follow. He doesn't fill in
> > all
> > the gaps you need filled in for you
>
> No, he disrespected the moonglows, and then later on when he realized
> that he had no idea what he was talking about, he gave a reissue a
> good mark to cover his ass.

Please provide the dissing quote. The way you operate is you and your
similarly close-minded (and like-minded) friends spread misinformation among
each other.

You did it about Crazy not being a big song before the Sweet Dreams movie.
One of you said, "I don't remember Crazy from before Sweet Dreams." Then
another of you said, "yeah, I don't either." That was enough for it to be a
"fact" that Crazy wasn't a standard before the movie.

You were so excited to spread that little disparaging Patsy Cline tidbit of
yours, that you twisted a comment of mine about Patsy Cline's not having a
country singing style to fit your disparagement. But I hadn't intended to
disparage Cline. You misread me, just as you (or a friend of yours) is
habitually misreading Christgau.

[Dean F.]

On Nov 28, 3:27 pm, The Bloomfield Bloviator <Savo...@aol.com> wrote:

> No, he disrespected the moonglows, and then later on when he realized
> that he had no idea what he was talking about, he gave a reissue a
> good mark to cover his ass.

I remember Christgau's original essay when the Moonglows were inducted
into the R&R HoF. He said something like, "Their inclusion makes this
merely a hall of good." But after Steve Propes took him to task,
Christgau realized that he had made an ass of himself and recanted.

I just tried to find Christgau's original piece through Google, but he
has done a good job of erasing all traces of it.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On Nov 28, 4:08 pm, "Just_Dirt" <just_d...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >Christgau is the same schmuck who dismisses 90% of the records we talk
> > > >about in the 50s group. Fuck him.
>
> > > In a discussion I had with you about Christgau you claimed he dissed the
> > > Moonglows @ the time of their induction into the R&R hall of fame.
>
> > > I checked it out and he had given a 90s reissue of theirs an A or an A-.
>
> > > In other words, some dipshit friend of yours who can't read
> > > misinterpreted
> > > something Christgau said. That's easy to see, because Christgau's style
> > > is
> > > more complex than you and your friends can follow. He doesn't fill in
> > > all
> > > the gaps you need filled in for you
>
> > No, he disrespected the moonglows, and then later on when he realized
> > that he had no idea what he was talking about, he gave a reissue a
> > good mark to cover his ass.
>
> Please provide the dissing quote. The way you operate is you and your
> similarly close-minded (and like-minded) friends spread misinformation among
> each other.

A former member here wrote to the LA newspaper that Christgau was
writing for at the time and disputed what Christgau had said about the
Moonglows not being worthy of the hall of fame. I don't know if this
article is on the internet anywhere here in 2011.

What happened was something like, the Moonglows were nominated, and/or
inducted for the rock and roll hall of fame, and he had only heard one
or two songs by them in his life, so he listened to whatever greatest
hits package was available at the time and he said that he did not
think they were worthy of the hall. He has since changed hit tune.

[Just_Dirt]

>
> "Dean F." <soule...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:60e0b970-fbae-4724...@u6g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...

The criticism you made of Christgau was different from Bloviator's. It was
that critics perform no function.

By extension, then, talking about music should perform no function. And what
we do around here is nonsensical and has no value. That I might agree with,
but I still like to read what Christgau has to say about music.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

Some people, like assholes at RYM, think that something never happened
unless it is documented now on the internet. At RYM they won't let you
correct a release date or some other incorrect data unless you can
give them an internet link that confirms it.

So if some schmuck like Peneny has incorrect info on his site, they'll
accept that as proof, but they won't accept first hand knowledge from
somebody.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On Nov 28, 4:13 pm, "Just_Dirt" <just_d...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > "Dean F." <soulexpr...@gmail.com> wrote in message

> >news:60e0b970-fbae-4724...@u6g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
> > On Nov 28, 1:56 pm, "Just_Dirt" <just_d...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > In other words, some dipshit friend of yours who can't read
> > > misinterpreted
> > > something Christgau said. That's easy to see, because Christgau's style
> > > is
> > > more complex than you and your friends can follow. He doesn't fill in
> > > all
> > > the gaps you need filled in for you.
>
> > If I could read and understand both "Crime and Punishment" and "The
> > Gulag Archipelago," then I doubt Christgau would be much of a problem
> > for me.
>
> > When you assume....
>
> The criticism you made of Christgau was different from Bloviator's. It was
> that critics perform no function.

His function is worthless for people like me and dean, who have much
better taste than he does. For you though, I guess he has a function.
He tells you what you should like.

[Dean F.]

On Nov 28, 4:20 pm, The Bloomfield Bloviator <Savo...@aol.com> wrote:

> Some people, like assholes at RYM, think that something never happened
> unless it is documented now on the internet. At RYM they won't let you
> correct a release date or some other incorrect data unless you can
> give them an internet link that confirms it.
>
> So if some schmuck like Peneny has incorrect info on his site, they'll
> accept that as proof, but they won't accept first hand knowledge from
> somebody.

Everyone, including Christgau, is entitled to be wrong - especially if
they realize it and later correct themselves. Unfortunately, in this
day and age of the "delete" key, it's easy for someone to cover their
tracks when they've screwed up and to make themselves look like they
knew what they were talking about all along (even when they didn't).

[Just_Dirt]

> >
> > > When you assume....
> >
> > The criticism you made of Christgau was different from Bloviator's. It
> > was
> > that critics perform no function.
>
> His function is worthless for people like me and dean, who have much
> better taste than he does. For you though, I guess he has a function.
> He tells you what you should like.
>

Ooh, good one!

Did you think of that all by yourself?

[Just_Dirt]

> >
> > > No, he disrespected the moonglows, and then later on when he realized
> > > that he had no idea what he was talking about, he gave a reissue a
> > > good mark to cover his ass.
> >
> > Please provide the dissing quote. The way you operate is you and your
> > similarly close-minded (and like-minded) friends spread misinformation
> > among
> > each other.
>
> A former member here wrote to the LA newspaper that Christgau was
> writing for at the time and disputed what Christgau had said about the
> Moonglows not being worthy of the hall of fame. I don't know if this
> article is on the internet anywhere here in 2011.
>
> What happened was something like, the Moonglows were nominated, and/or
> inducted for the rock and roll hall of fame, and he had only heard one
> or two songs by them in his life, so he listened to whatever greatest
> hits package was available at the time and he said that he did not
> think they were worthy of the hall. He has since changed hit tune.
>

Just saw this exchange, from around 2000 on this ng:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.rock-pop-r+b.1950s/
browse_thread/thread/34081c997ca76b5c/a3100086b4c75d79?
hl=en&lnk=gst&q=steve+propes+moonglows#a3100086b4c75d79

(didn't allow me to send the message at first. I had to break up the link
into three parts)



It's a little hard to tell, but it might be the critic Robert Hilburn who
dissed the Moonglows. Propes says Hilburn dissed other 50s acts, whereas my
reading of Christgau is that Christgau toes the party line on the 50s, as
all you "independent" thinkers on this ng also do.

I'd appreciate it if you dropped this Christgau hates the 50s line of yours.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On Nov 28, 4:41 pm, "Just_Dirt" <just_d...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > No, he disrespected the moonglows, and then later on when he realized
> > > > that he had no idea what he was talking about, he gave a reissue a
> > > > good mark to cover his ass.
>
> > > Please provide the dissing quote. The way you operate is you and your
> > > similarly close-minded (and like-minded) friends spread misinformation
> > > among
> > > each other.
>
> > A former member here wrote to the LA newspaper that Christgau was
> > writing for at the time and disputed what Christgau had said about the
> > Moonglows not being worthy of the hall of fame. I don't know if this
> > article is on the internet anywhere here in 2011.
>
> > What happened was something like, the Moonglows were nominated, and/or
> > inducted for the rock and roll hall of fame, and he had only heard one
> > or two songs by them in his life, so he listened to whatever greatest
> > hits package was available at the time and he said that he did not
> > think they were worthy of the hall. He has since changed hit tune.
>
> Just saw this exchange, from around 2000 on this ng:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.rock-pop-r+b.1950s/
> browse_thread/thread/34081c997ca76b5c/a3100086b4c75d79?
> hl=en&lnk=gst&q=steve+propes+moonglows#a3100086b4c75d79
>
> (didn't allow me to send the message at first. I had to break up the link
> into three parts)

The link just takes me back to the current day in the newsgroup.

[Just_Dirt]

You'd have to put the three lines together using a text editor and then
paste it into the browser address bar.

(Ng posting, apparently, has a 79 character line-length limit.)

Or, you could go back to that page and do Search this Group for "steve
propes moonglows."

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On Nov 28, 4:25 pm, "Dean F." <soulexpr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 28, 4:20 pm, The Bloomfield Bloviator <Savo...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Some people, like assholes at RYM, think that something never happened
> > unless it is documented now on the internet. At RYM they won't let you
> > correct a release date or some other incorrect data unless you can
> > give them an internet link that confirms it.
>
> > So if some schmuck like Peneny has incorrect info on his site, they'll
> > accept that as proof, but they won't accept first hand knowledge from
> > somebody.
>
> Everyone, including Christgau, is entitled to be wrong - especially if
> they realize it and later correct themselves.

With facts, yes, but there's no right or wrong here. Christgau's
opinion of the Moonglows music hasn't changed. He may be claiming that
it's changed, but I don't believe him. He probably just realized that
few people agree with his shit taste in this case, so he's pretending
that he changed his mind.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On Nov 28, 4:41 pm, "Just_Dirt" <just_d...@gmail.com> wrote:

My mistake, it was Hillburn. Here's a post from Dean back then:


"Paulie Peanuts" wrote:
> The link to his page is no good anymore, but maybe if Steve sees this
> he can shed some light on what this guy had to say against the
> moonglows.

I believe I read that Hilburn guy's piece when it first came out. If
it's
the article I'm thinking of, he based his opinion solely on a single
hearing
of the 2-CD "Blue Velvet" anthology, which consists almost exclusively
of
the Moonglows' Chess output. What he said was that the group was good
but
not great, and that the R&R HoF should not merely be a "Hall of
Good."

I also saw Propes' reply, in which he opined that the Moonglows had
far more
rock 'n' roll credibility than James Taylor, who was inducted the same
year
as the Moonglows (2000). Propes wrote something to the effect of,
"Taylor
only got in because stoners like to mellow out to him, man."

----------------------------------------

My problem with Christgau was his statement that Jerry Butler's
catalog was not "compelling" He said that Butler was not a hall of
famer but that Patti Smith was.

Patti Smith, who has maybe one song that most people are familiar
with, if that.

[Just_Dirt]

----------------------------------------

My problem with Christgau was his statement that Jerry Butler's
catalog was not "compelling" He said that Butler was not a hall of
famer but that Patti Smith was.

Patti Smith, who has maybe one song that most people are familiar
with, if that.

_______________

You and I have discussed that too. I happen to agree with Christgau because
I'm underwhelmed by Butler and I like Patti Smith.

However, Christgau has MANY opinions I do disagree with.

I like him because he listens to more, of more genres, than anyone else, and
he has listened for longer, it seems than anyone else.

He strives to listen to the music on its own terms, which I try to do. If
singing with a good voice is not what the music is about, I try not to judge
it on whether the singer is good. If embellishing pop music with classical
elements is what it's about (art rock), I try to get with the spirit of that
and I don't penalize it for being pretentious. If music is sappy and
sentimental I try to hear it in those terms.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

Yes, it came to me after you thought of this....

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On Nov 28, 5:12 pm, "Just_Dirt" <just_d...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ----------------------------------------
>
> My problem with Christgau was his statement that Jerry Butler's
> catalog was not "compelling" He said that Butler was not a hall of
> famer but that Patti Smith was.
>
> Patti Smith, who has maybe one song that most people are familiar
> with, if that.
> _______________
>
> You and I have discussed that too. I happen to agree with Christgau because
> I'm underwhelmed by Butler and I like Patti Smith.

Figures.

You prefer sluts who can't sing over the Iceman.

[Just_Dirt]

> > Ooh, good one!
> >
> > Did you think of that all by yourself?
>
> Yes, it came to me after you thought of this....
>
> > Christgau's style is more complex than you and your friends can follow.
>

Careful ... that egg in your face will lower your reading comprehension even
further