Verdi's worst opera?
La Donna Mobile
from La Scala in 1983, with a stellar cast - Domingo, Freni, Ghiaurov,
Bruson, under Muti. Which I quite like. And, in general, I really like
Verdi. Having sat through of an evening of Ernani, where a dozen or so
random people around me agreed that it was boring, dull, silly, 'I'm not
going to rush out and buy the CD' etc. (I was hoping for the alternative
happy ending when Ernani goes '\/ Silva, sod you, I lied about the suicide
and the horn' - but it didn't happen). The costumes were gorgeous, the
orchestra was lively, some of the singers were not bad, the chorus was
excellent.
But I really wouldn't recommend it to anybody. We agreed it wasn't Traviata.
Or Rigoletto. Or Otello. Or Ballo.
But does anybody have any opinions on what Verdi's worst opera was.
http://www.madmusingsof.me.uk/weblog
http://www.geraldine-curtis.me.uk/photoblog
Richard Loeb
"La Donna Mobile" <donna...@brixton.fsworld.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cbabt2$ege$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
Terrymelin
I don't know if I'd want to use the word "worst" but my least favorite is
Macbeth. I think it is vastly overrated. The music is fairly banal -- and there
is so much other Verdi of that period that is far superior. IMHO.
Terry Ellsworth
GRNDPADAVE
How about DEATH IN VENICE?
:>)) G/P Dave
La Donna Mobile
Gilbert and Sullivan. And I hate Gilbert and Sullivan. To the extent that I
am supposed to be meeting up with two old schol friends, and I have already
stated that I refuse, absolutely refuse, to even contemplate singing Three
Little Maids From School.
"La Donna Mobile" <donna...@brixton.fsworld.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cbabt2$ege$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
Mike Richter
1. Re Lear - because despite planning to compose it for years, he never did.
2. Your choice among the earliest ones, before he became confident in
the theater, imaginative in his music and strong enough to collaborate
with the best librettists.
By Nabucco, he was digging in and starting to write first-class
material, though admittedly inconsistently. Ernani was as good as
anything being written in its day - which is not faint praise when the
likes of Pacini and Mercadante were thriving. For the first time, IMHO,
Verdi in Ernani moved beyond the standard of his day, particularly in
the music for Carlos; the other principals have 'only' some of the best
music of the usual sort composed by then.
Asking that Ernani hold your attention and involve your emotions as Aida
does is excessive. Do you also expect Finta Giardiniera to have the
polish and appeal of Nozze di Figaro?
Dan
either, and it would top my list of dull, overrated operas.
I discount Oberto and Giorno di Regno since they were his first two
inexperienced works and Oberto pretty much belongs to a different genre and
time period.
Dan
"La Donna Mobile" <donna...@brixton.fsworld.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cbabt2$ege$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
Leonard Tillman
>does anybody have any opinions on what
> Verdi's worst opera was.
I recall reading that HIS unfavorite was ALZIRA.
Leonard Tillman
Oisk17
> And I hate Gilbert and Sullivan
Your opinion doesn't matter matter matter matter matter! <G>
Paul
David M.
>
> But does anybody have any opinions on what Verdi's worst opera was.
Giovanna D'Arco.
dm.
WDSmithDM
Traviata.
Or Rigoletto. Or Otello. Or Ballo. >><BR><BR>
Gosh, I love Ernani, sort of an early Trovatore, including a crazy plot set in
Spain, albeit by a Frenchman, and with one hit tune after another.
Of the ones I have heard, my least favorite are Battaglia di Legnano and
Corsaro.
Elizabeth Hubbell
Hatter, hatter, cease your clatter,
Hatter, hatter, cease your clatter,
Hatter, hatter, cease your clatter,
Hatter, seize your hat and go;
Hatter, hatter, cease your clatter,
Hatter, seize your hat and go.
I know, I know, this is _Burnand_ & Sullivan, but hey......<G>
Geoffrey Riggs
David7Gable
>> random people around me agreed that it was boring, dull, silly, '
Silly, yes, but I still think Ernani is a glorious thing. And once the
fundamental silliness is overlooked, you quickly come to realize how silly it
isn't.
-david gable
David7Gable
>inexperienced works and Oberto pretty much belongs to a different genre and
>time period.
Oberto is the one Verdi opera I've never heard, but I'm deeply skeptical that
it belongs to a different genre. Please elaborate. Surely it consists of a
series of multi-movement numbers made up of scenas, cantabiles, cabalettas, and
so forth.
As for Giorno di Regno, it's a hell of a lot of fun.
-david gable
stephenmead
"David7Gable" <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040623020814...@mb-m05.aol.com...
Ernani is based on a then famous play by Victor Hugo, Hernani, which was
considered so revolutionary that it caused riots at its premiere in Paris.
It is the height of Romanticism and I don't think it is silly at all but
reflects a code of honour which may be outmoded in the West but was
important at the time. It may seem ridiculous that Ernani commits suicide at
Silva's demand because he has earlier promised to but that shows that Ernani
is honourable because he is true to his word. This code of honour used to
run business dealings in the City of London for instance where financial
regulations used to be quite light since a British gentleman's "word is his
bond" and is still reflected in the House of Commons where MP's are
forbidden to accuse each other of not telling the truth althought 99% of the
public would say that politicians tell lies all the time.
No, I think Ernani is fabulous when it is well sung enough and enjoyed the
production at the ENO when it was new tremendously - I haven't seen it in
this run.
Verdi's worst opera? Well, he said himself of Alzira years after he had
written it "quella e propria brutta" which means "that one is really awful"
but it has some very enjoyable music in it IMO.
I don't think he has a worst opera, they may not all be masterpieces but I
have heard them all and there is always something to enjoy and they are
never boring.
Viva Verdi!
David Melnick
> I don't think he has a worst opera, they may not all be masterpieces but I
> have heard them all and there is always something to enjoy and they are
> never boring.
> Viva Verdi!
D'accordo, Signor Mead. If one comes to his early
operas by way of his later ones, some of the music may
take getting used to, but once that threshold is crossed,
every opera, at least every one I've heard, has great
music in it, including the ones mentioned here as being
candidates for "worst": Battaglia, Oberto, Giovanna D'Arco,
Corsaro, etc. (I don't know Alzira.)
As I understand it, Verdi didn't have too much of a
reputation among German-music lovers for generations until a
few conductors startled the German/Austrian public with how
brilliant the operas were -- Walter, for example, attended
a Vienna performance of Forza conducted by Toscanini in the
'20s, and it was a revelation to him. As recently as
a couple of generations ago, I knew Wagnerians who
had no use for much of Verdi and for any Puccini at all.
I imagine the segregation of the Italian and German wings
at the pre-war Met was an indication of this, from both
directions.
Then came Mr. Bing, and opera by opera the "other" Verdi was
discovered.
Davidde di lormo
Leonard Tillman
>Having sat through of an evening of Ernani,
> where a dozen or so
>random people around me agreed that it was
> boring, dull, silly, '
The story is, - but the music, the arias and ensembles are glorious!
While all the principles have great music to sing, the lion's share goes
to the baritone, culminating in the magnificent "O, Sommo Carlo", one of
Opera's most thrilling moments.
Leonard Tillman
Dan
harpsicord as far as I knew.
He gave that up later on, obviously, as something that went out of style. It
is an opera based on Rossinian models to some extent and as such cannot be
considered true Verdi, nor can it be compared to any of his other works due
to the stylistic differences.
Dan
"David7Gable" <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040623021315...@mb-m05.aol.com...
La Donna Mobile
baritone was not up to much - very muted applause. And the soprano obviously
based herself on Dame Joan but without Dame Joan's clear enunciation and
consummate acting, although she obligingly threw in the odd bark and
frequent scream. Perhaps the orchestra played too loudly...
Act IV started with fake fireworks in the cupola, which didn't quite work -
it caused guffaws, even from me who is scared stupid of party poppers, let
alone fireworks...
There may have been a general problem with the production - in Interval 1
when I went outside for a smoke, I overheard a couple flouncing out saying
"Unmitigated tosh", the man next to me and couple in front also disappeared
at Interval 1. Obviously, more experienced people than me have far more
exacting standards, but it wasn't awful, just, uninspiring: the threesome
behind me kept saying "Has anything happened yet?" The couple next to me
couldn't disguise their sniggers, and the man next but one on the other side
was just bemused and perplexed...
The bass - Alaistair Miles - deservedly got a resounding chorus of Bravos,
and the tenor Scott Davies (stand in) did very well considering his total
previous operatic experience totals four performances as Don Riccardo
earlier this month...
And the costumes were really really gorgeous - the dresses were what I would
call Elizabethan (and psychedelic), and the gentlemen's costumes were
tasteful.
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:13985-40...@storefull-3331.bay.webtv.net...
Daniel Kessler
the worst.
Daniel Kessler
you!
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 06/23/2004 7:19 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <czeCc.12$Nr1...@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
>
>Well Oberto is the only Verdi opera with recitatives accompanied by a
>harpsicord as far as I knew.
>He gave that up later on, obviously, as something that went out of style. It
>is an opera based on Rossinian models to some extent and as such cannot be
>considered true Verdi, nor can it be compared to any of his other works due
>to the stylistic differences.
>
>Dan
I think you are referring to UN GIORNO DI REGNO.
This is, imho, the best of Gardelli's Verdi recordings. It is more
Donizetti-like than Rossinian: the libretto is by Felice Romani who wrote the
book for ELISIR D'AMORE.
The music is quite lively and provides the source material for much Charles
Mackerras' delightful ballet THE LADY AND THE FOOL.
==G/P Dave
Leonard Tillman
>The ensembles were glorious. Perhaps part of
> the problem was that the baritone was not up
> to much - very muted applause.
*There's* the main problem! - Since so much in Ernani hinges on having a
really solid, briliant Baritone-star. The production could IMO sooner
make do with a lackluster tenor.
>And the soprano obviously based herself on
> Dame Joan but without Dame Joan's clear enunciation and consummate
acting,
I like her, too, - but some would differ re her enunciation's clarity.
I believe her officially-last recording is of this role - with Pav and
Nucci co-starring, and as Silva, Burchuladze, a bass young enough to be
her son.
>although she obligingly threw in the odd bark
> and frequent scream.
Baaad! The former would be worse than the latter. Better a scream than
a bark, anyday.
>Perhaps the orchestra played too loudly...
>Act IV started with fake fireworks in the
> cupola, which didn't quite work - it caused
> guffaws, even from me who is scared stupid
> of party poppers, let alone fireworks...
>There may have been a general problem with
> the production - in Interval 1 when I went
> outside for a smoke, I overheard a couple
> flouncing out saying "Unmitigated tosh", the
> man next to me and couple in front also
> disappeared at Interval 1. Obviously, more
> experienced people than me have far more
> exacting standards, but it wasn't awful, just,
> uninspiring:
Not a guarantee, but a more-exciting baritone would probably have made
the difference.
>the threesome behind me kept saying "Has
> anything happened yet?" The couple next to
> me couldn't disguise their sniggers, and the
> man next but one on the other side was just
> bemused and perplexed...
Could be, they're just not "Ernani-Friendly"?
>The bass - Alaistair Miles - deservedly got a
> resounding chorus of Bravos,
Now, HE'S a fine basso, IMO England's finest I've heard, next to Robert
Lloyd.
>and the tenor Scott Davies (stand in) did very
> well considering his total previous operatic
> experience totals four performances as Don
> Riccardo earlier this month...
>And the costumes were really really gorgeous
> - the dresses were what I would call
> Elizabethan (and psychedelic), and the
> gentlemen's costumes were tasteful.
Psychedelic costumes? That, I have to see sometime! :-)))
Best,
LT
Evi
"La Donna Mobile" <donna...@brixton.fsworld.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cbabt2$ege$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
The one of my limited collection which I listen to least is Falstaff. But I
suspect that it would be a great one to watch. I've never listened to
Ernani.
Evi
Leonard Tillman
label, with La Scola, Dessi, Coni, and Pertusi. Good performances
overall, but, and fortunately, the baritone, Paolo Coni, is the standout
here. Btw, anyone know if he's still singing?
Leonard Tillman
La Donna Mobile
"Evi" <evwoolTa...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:2jtkeiF...@uni-berlin.de...
if so, I suggest that you subscribe additionally to Artsworld (£6 a month).
They show at least one opera a week, and also concerts, intelligent
documentaries about art, architecture, music etc etc, costume dramas based
on literature, and arthouse films. They did a Verdi season in
January/February, which was excellent. Generally, the operas they show are
from Covent Garden, La Scala or Paris, with a few Met and other European
thrown in. (This week Orpheus in the Underworld, next week Patience -
they're obviously having an operetta season - they're generally heavier than
this!)
And if you haven't got Sky, you won't also know about the Performance
Channel. It's a bit like the curate's egg, and tends to repeat everything on
a 2-3 month cycle. However, they show three or four operas a month eg Otello
with Domingo/Te Kananwa/Leiferkus (on again next week); Gheorgiu's Traviata;
a Carmen with Maria Ewing; Cunning Little Vixen (this week) and also
populist-type concerts - the Berlin Philharmonic series from Waldbuhne is
fun, but you also get Pavarotti Rocks for Angola, Bocelli's Sacred Arias etc
etc.
Unfortunately the most basic Sky package is £17 a month, and I'm paying more
for Sports and Films (but do get recent films for £3 a throw). And you get
BBC4 as well. And radio stations, which can be useful for recording an opera
off Radio 3 onto video, rather than fiddling around changing cassettes).
Most of the channels are undiluted crap, (but sometimes entertaining fo
rtheir sheer crapness). But I think I get my money's worth...just!
Leonard Tillman
>The one of my limited collection which I listen
> to least is Falstaff. But I suspect that it would
> be a great one to watch.
I definitely is. Especially Bryn Terfel's video - it's a role MADE for
him. Aside from the great bass-baritone voice, he's altogether brilliant
and funny.
>I've never listened to Ernani.
I recommend - among many others - the set I'm hearing right now:
Nuova Era 7028/29
La Scola, Dessi, Coni, and Pertusi, Conducted by Giuliano Carella -- in
1992.
Also, RCA's with Bergonzi, Price, Sereni, and Flagello, Cond. by
Schippers, in the '60s.
One gorgeous melodic treat after another!
>Evi
Best,
Leonard Tillman
David7Gable
>harpsicord as far as I knew.
That is news (to me, at least).
-david gable
Little Jimmy Olsen
Booger Tillman writes,
<The story is, - but the music, the arias and ensembles are glorious!
While all the principles have great music to sing, the lion's share goes
to the baritone, culminating in the magnificent "O, Sommo Carlo", one of
Opera's most thrilling moments. >
What 'principles' might those be, Booger?
Little Jimmy Olsen
Booger Tillman writes,
>although she obligingly threw in the odd bark
> and frequent scream.
<<Baaad! The former would be worse than the latter. Better a scream than
a bark, anyday.>>
I hope Little Elvis isn't reading this thread.
Little Jimmy Olsen
Booger Tillman write,
>>The one of my limited collection which I listen
>> to least is Falstaff. But I suspect that it would
>> be a great one to watch. >>
>I definitely is. Especially Bryn Terfel's video - it's a role MADE for
him. Aside from the great bass-baritone voice, he's altogether brilliant
and funny.>
You definitely isn't, Booger.
Leonard Tillman
<You definitely isn't Booger.
But you definitely IS a Booger, Boog.
Shut your hole, Bole.
Leonard Tillman
Leonard Tillman
<3 successive gas-emissions snipped>
Enjoying your sh-sandwichds, Bole?
Shut your hole.
Leonard Tillman
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 06/23/2004 10:05 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <6516-40D...@storefull-3337.bay.webtv.net>
>
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~
ERNANI is one of Verdi great operas. Of the 16 operas preceding RIGOLETTO, my
favorites are:
NABUCCO
ERNANI
MACBETH
LUISA MILLER
STIFFELIO
As for recordings, I hope you are able to find the MYTO recording of ERNANI
which is beautifully conducted by Dimitri Mitropoulos and has a case including:
Mario del Monaco, Zinka Milanov, Leonard Warren, Cesare Siepi and James
McCracken.
They all sing the bejeebers out of this precursor of IL TROVATORE.
==G/P Dave
Mitchell Kaufman
> As for recordings, I hope you are able to find the MYTO recording of
> ERNANI which is beautifully conducted by Dimitri Mitropoulos and has a
> case including: Mario del Monaco, Zinka Milanov, Leonard Warren, Cesare
> Siepi and James McCracken.
Guess what? There are *two* Myto recordings of Ernani (actually more,
I'm sure, but for the purposes of this discussion...): there's also the
Florence May Festival performance of 1957 with Del Monaco, Cerquetti,
Bastianini and Christoff. Mitropoulos conducts this one, too. Both are
excellent performances, but I prefer the latter cast.
MK
La Donna Mobile
should see my orders pending from Amazon. It scares me). I do so like Verdi,
so you can imagine my disappointment...
Alcindoro
harpsicord as far as I knew.<
OBERTO has no recitativo secco.
I find each and every Verdi opera worth listening to at least once. One finds
so many pre-echos of what he will achieve later, as well as his own approach to
the accepted forms in opera of his time. And then, there are the influences of
the current
political climate. And also as indicative of how the business of opera
production functioned at the time, in re. his dealings with the censors,
commissions, and just how he learned the nuts-and-bolts of opera.
One may call ERNANI "silly" (my father calls ALL opera "silly" when he's not
calling it worse) but it can be viewed as a "concept" opera -- the concept here
being the notion of honor above all else. Maybe today we would not operate the
way the characters in ERNANI (or HERNANI) did, but it stands as an important
dramatization of an ideology -- and it's got some damn exciting music in it,
too!
Pat Finley
> Asking that Ernani hold your attention and involve your emotions as Aida
> does is excessive. Do you also expect Finta Giardiniera to have the
> polish and appeal of Nozze di Figaro?
>
> Mike
Yes, but Mozart wrote Finta when he was about eighteen; Verdi was an
elderly thirty-one at the time he wrote Ernani. They had both,
however, been writing operas for about the same length of time at that
point in their careers, so they were each at about the same point in
their relative musical maturity.
You know what's really depressing to think about? Verdi didn't really
hit his stride (turning out an almost unbroken series of
masterpieces)until 1850-51 with Rigoletto, by which time he was about
thirty-seven, an age Mozart never lived to reach.
Is it possible that Mozart could have written operas in his forties
(which were not to be) that would have eclipsed the works that he
wrote in his twenties and thirties (Figaro, Don Giovanni, Zauberflote)
by as much as Verdi's mid and late period works surpassed his youthful
efforts? Is music of such majesty even conceivable? Might a
composer as fertile and inventive as Mozart still have been writing
great masterpieces in his late fifties as Verdi (Aida) did? Might he
have adopted a new and exciting style in his old age as Verdi was to
do? Would he have continued to write operas in both Italian and
German?
Who can guess what the history of music might have been, if Mozart had
lived as long as Haydn, much less Verdi?
Pat
Commspkmn
<< Who can guess what the history of music might have been, if Mozart had
lived as long as Haydn, much less Verdi?
Pat>>
Or if Schubert lived as long as Beethoven!
Best,
Ken
Valfer
pretty good.
Some twenty years ago, I saw I Due Foscari for the first time. I had
been told many times that this opera was a bore. I immediately took a
liking to it.
Valfer
GRNDPADAVE
>Date: 06/23/2004 2:29 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20040623152956...@mb-m24.aol.com>
Or if George Gershwin lived as long as Andrew Lloyd-Webber.
==G/P Dave
Drakejake
baritones. I have heard a bit of Due Foscari and wasn't impressed. I think
Ernani is very good and is somewhat neglected in the USA.
Jake Drake
donpaolo
Quinto, especially after having seen MacNeil, with his phenomenal high notes
(even though it has been decreed that we are not supposed to so indulge).
DonPaolo
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:13985-40...@storefull-3331.bay.webtv.net...
>Having sat through of an evening of Ernani,
> where a dozen or so
>random people around me agreed that it was
> boring, dull, silly, '
The story is, - but the music, the arias and ensembles are glorious!
While all the principles have great music to sing, the lion's share goes
to the baritone, culminating in the magnificent "O, Sommo Carlo", one of
Opera's most thrilling moments.
Leonard Tillman
donpaolo
Shocking - what is this group coming to?
DonPaolo
"Elizabeth Hubbell" <elizabet...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:_N7Cc.22786$z24....@nwrdny01.gnilink.net...
> [from Geof. Riggs; not Eliz. H., my better half]
>
> Oisk17 wrote:
> >>From: "La Donna Mobile"
> >
> >
> >>And I hate Gilbert and Sullivan
> >
> >
> > Your opinion doesn't matter matter matter matter matter! <G>
>
> Hatter, hatter, cease your clatter,
> Hatter, hatter, cease your clatter,
> Hatter, hatter, cease your clatter,
> Hatter, seize your hat and go;
> Hatter, hatter, cease your clatter,
> Hatter, seize your hat and go.
>
> I know, I know, this is _Burnand_ & Sullivan, but hey......<G>
>
> Geoffrey Riggs
>
OmbraRecds
>been told many times that this opera was a bore. I immediately took a
>liking to it.
>
>Valfer
Who was in it, and where? When I saw this opera I lost it completely. I am the
biggest Due Foscari fan ever.I think the soprano's music is very challenging,
so that might be part of the reason it is not given very often, not to mention
the sort of voice needed for the Doge.
Patrick Byrne
Leonard Tillman
>Yup - I've long felt that the opera should have
> been named after Carlo Quinto, especially
> after having seen MacNeil, with his
> phenomenal high notes (even though it has
> been decreed that we are not supposed to so
> indulge).
(Yeah, - better not let it get around that we did.)
What a role this would have been for Gino Bechi!!!
Luckily, a few of the other greats recorded it, but I wish Merrill were
among 'em. Imagine how he'd have done, in a role practically made for
him!
I listened a while ago to Pinza's Infelice e tu credevi, and am again
convinced that his recording is head, shoulders, navel, and knees above
all others' - possibly excepting Ghiaurov's which was close in
excellence.
For Ernani Involami, - nothing's quite like Ponselle's and perhaps
Milanov's!
>DonPaolo
Best,
LT
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:13985-40...@storefull-3331.bay.webtv.net...
>Having sat through of an evening of Ernani,
> where a dozen or so
>random people around me agreed that it was
> boring, dull, silly, '
"The story is, - but the music, the arias and ensembles are glorious!
While all the principulls have great music to singe, tha lion's share
David Melnick
> In my opinion, Verdi operas are like sex. Even the worst one is still
> pretty good.
>
LOL. You said it better than anyone has so far!
Mark D Lew
<donna...@brixton.fsworld.co.uk> wrote:
> But does anybody have any opinions on what Verdi's worst opera was.
The conventional wisdom seems to be Alzira, which few seem to have any
familiarity with. I certainly don't know it.
I do know Oberto, and -- having performed in both -- I like Oberto
better than Ernani. Ernani is OK, but I don't think it lives up to its
reputation as one of the best of Verdi's "early" (ie, pre-Rigoletto)
works. I like Masnadieri better than Ernani or Oberto, by a wide
margin. Oberto has a particularly fine concertato number for the
ensemble and chorus, which I find reminiscent of the similar number in
Traviata.
mdl
Mark D Lew
<grndp...@aol.com> wrote:
> Or if George Gershwin lived as long as Andrew Lloyd-Webber.
Amen.
The other day I was reading the score of Gershwin's Concerto in F, and
I marveled anew at the sheer brilliance. Not just this piece, but all
of Gershwin's writing.
And if plain genius isn't enough, whereas many of the great composers
expanded on the traditions before them, Gershwin was among the handful
who was a great innovator as well, creating a style unlike those before
him and completely transforming the musical landscape as a result.
Gershwin gets plenty of critical praise, and I certainly wouldn't call
him neglected. Even so, I think he 's still arguably the most
underrated composer of all time. I think he's in the same league with
Bach and Mozart.
mdl
Capa0848
>From: ois...@aol.com (Oisk17)
>Date: 6/22/2004 7:58 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <20040622225802...@mb-m12.aol.com>
>
>>From: "La Donna Mobile"
>
>> And I hate Gilbert and Sullivan
>
>Your opinion doesn't matter matter matter matter matter! <G>
>
>
Is that one of those G & S 'matter' songs I'm always hearing about?
Pat
"In the very books in which philosophers bid us to scorn fame, they inscribe
their names."
Cicero
David7Gable
>STIFFELIO
These are indeed, pre-Rigoletto, but as far as I'm concerned, Verdi's middle
period begins with Act III of Luisa Miller, one of the composer's most
sustained achievements. You'll never convince me that he hasn't already scaled
Rigolettoan and Traviatan heights here. Nothing in the first two acts of Luisa
Miller quite prepares you for the sustained achievement of that last act.
-david gable
David7Gable
>Quinto, especially after having seen MacNeil, with his phenomenal high notes
Don Paolo, please recommend a recording of MacNeil's Carlo. There must be more
than one. (At the risk of being shot, I will confess that I also love Sereni's
performance in the RCA recording. His voice wasn't as big as MacNeil's but he
throws himself into the role very convincingly.)
>(even though it has been decreed that we are not supposed to so indulge).
Don Paolo, I hope you'll forgive me if I ignore this bit of silliness.
-david gable, fan of MacNeil and the role of Carlo Quinto
David7Gable
>was
>the worst.
Then it surely isn't.
-david gable
David7Gable
>so many pre-echos of what he will achieve later, as well as his own approach
>to
>the accepted forms in opera of his time.
You find powerful pre-echos of what Verdi will later do when you listen to
Donizetti, too!
Terrific post, Alcindoro.
-david gable
David7Gable
Lucky you. You'll have something truly marvelous left to listen to in your old
age.
>But I
>suspect that it would be a great one to watch.
It's a great one to LISTEN to, but it poses new problems for the aficionado of
traditional Italian opera. Most later 19th century music--Brahms, Wagner,
Bruckner, Franck, Mahler--is slower than classical music (Haydn, Mozart,
Beethoven). But Falstaff is one of the most fleet and mercurial inventions of
the human spirit: it goes by so fast the listener must listen many times to
take it all in. Not only is the rate of change rapid, but the language is more
concentrated and the textures are more complex. It's an incredible synthesis
derived from diverse sources, too, including the traditions of opera buffa, the
late Beethoven String Quartets, and the fairy music of Mendelssohn and Berlioz.
Well worth the effort.
-david gable
David7Gable
>baritones.
Listen to Act III of Luisa. It's basically stripped down to soprano, tenor,
and Verdi baritone (although the two bassi stumble in for a few seconds at the
very end).
-david gable
David7Gable
>biggest Due Foscari fan ever.I think the soprano's music is very challenging,
I love "O, patrizi!"
-david gable
David7Gable
>ensemble and chorus, which I find reminiscent of the similar number in
>Traviata
What recordings of Oberto are there?
-david gable
Andrew T. Kay
The two of which I'm aware are conducted by Gardelli (w Bergonzi, Panerai, and
Dimitrova) and, more recently, Marriner (w Ramey and Guleghina). There may be
others. I have a feeling you'd like the former recording best.
I do not share mdl's preference for it to _Ernani_ (_Ernani_ is my favorite of
the pre-_Macbeths_, anyway. I'll admit there are a few from the "galley years"
that I've heard only in excerpts, but I'd be shocked if they ever soared to the
top of my rankings).
--Todd K
Mitchell Kaufman
> Don Paolo, please recommend a recording of MacNeil's Carlo. There must be
> more than one. (At the risk of being shot, I will confess that I also
> love Sereni's performance in the RCA recording. His voice wasn't as big
> as MacNeil's but he throws himself into the role very convincingly.)
The '62 Met broadcast with Price and Bergonzi.
MK
Mitchell Kaufman
Whoops...sorry. I know I'm not Don Paolo...
MK
Joseph Caporiccio
fan.
La Donna Mobile wrote:
> Verdi is, in general and overall, wonderful (IMO). I have a video of Ernani
> from La Scala in 1983, with a stellar cast - Domingo, Freni, Ghiaurov,
> Bruson, under Muti. Which I quite like. And, in general, I really like
> Verdi. Having sat through of an evening of Ernani, where a dozen or so
> random people around me agreed that it was boring, dull, silly, 'I'm not
> going to rush out and buy the CD' etc. (I was hoping for the alternative
> happy ending when Ernani goes '\/ Silva, sod you, I lied about the suicide
> and the horn' - but it didn't happen). The costumes were gorgeous, the
> orchestra was lively, some of the singers were not bad, the chorus was
> excellent.
>
> But I really wouldn't recommend it to anybody. We agreed it wasn't Traviata.
> Or Rigoletto. Or Otello. Or Ballo.
>
> But does anybody have any opinions on what Verdi's worst opera was.
>
> http://www.madmusingsof.me.uk/weblog
> http://www.geraldine-curtis.me.uk/photoblog
Valfer
cannot recall. The tenor and soprano were ok at best, but Bruson was
in splendid voice, specially in the final scene. It's a shame the
tenor could not make better of all the music given to him. To me, I
due Foscari has a faint similarity with Simon Boccanegra. Verdi was
at his best in these dark dramas. I would like to see I due Foscari
done at the Met. Is this too much to ask?
Valfer
ombra...@aol.com (OmbraRecds) wrote in message news:<20040623195429...@mb-m06.aol.com>...
David7Gable
>
You're Don Mitchell.
-david gable
donpaolo
Nope, you are NOT forgiven :>)))
I think Mac's best Ernani performances were from the Met bdcst. (w/Bergonzi)
& the other with DelM (Naples or Rome - I forget dates). In the one from
Italy, my paisani go crazy after "o deh verd'anni miei", even though Mac
committed the unpardonable sin of interpolating the Ab at the end.
DonP.
"David7Gable" <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040624014320...@mb-m28.aol.com...
donpaolo
DonP.
"Mitchell Kaufman" <forg...@iaint.disclosinit> wrote in message
news:1gfvgdm.1kqo3d8u85ve7N%forg...@iaint.disclosinit...
Daniel Kessler
he wrote?
"Virginia, Virginia, you've got the Devil in ya!"
OmbraRecds
>done at the Met. Is this too much to ask?
And who would do Lucrezia? This is very difficult music. It can't be shrieked
like some recent Abigailles who ignore what Verdi wrote. I cannot think of a
soprano I have heard, other than Orgonosova who could manage it.
PCB
Mark D Lew
<dkes...@pop.cybernex.net> wrote:
> but Gershwin wrote his share of clinkers.....have you ever heard of a tune
> he wrote?
>
> "Virginia, Virginia, you've got the Devil in ya!"
No, but now I'm intrigued. With lyrics like that it's got to be great
camp. The scope for double-entendre is enormous.
mdl
Richard Bernas
> like some recent Abigailles who ignore what Verdi wrote. I cannot think of a
> soprano I have heard, other than Orgonosova who could manage it.
>
> PCB
The ROH production (in 94 or 95) used June Anderson (really not bad
the night I heard her, everything was in place except the lower
register and that is not so necessary for this opera) with Dennis
O'Neil (adequate in role that was within his limits) and Vladimir
Chernov (commanding with a beautiful if smaller than I expected voice)
conducted by Daniele Gatti. Everding's production was streamline
traditional, which I find the most boring sort of all.
Richard
Luca Logi
> 2. Your choice among the earliest ones, before he became confident in
> the theater, imaginative in his music and strong enough to collaborate
> with the best librettists.
Well, even Verdi himself in a late letter advices against doing again
"Oberto, conte di S. Bonifacio", as he realized that operatic taste had
changed too much after the time of composition.
--
Luca Logi - Firenze - Italy e-mail: ll...@dada.it
Home page: http://www.angelfire.com/ar/archivarius
(musicologia pratica)
vigfusv...@gmail.com
But Ricordi wanted to squeeze more money out of his cashcow, Boito wanted to bathe his faddish mediocre talent in Verdis fame, and his wife wanted to keep him busy. so it ended with two operas which never should have been written. Of course Verdi didn't become a bad composer, they contain all of his experience and none of his inspiration.
Willem
> His worst opera(s)? Well it is probably Otello and Falstaff. They really should have left the poor old man alone. He could have finished his career with the requiem and that would have been a glorious conclusion to his vast musical output.
> But Ricordi wanted to squeeze more money out of his cashcow, Boito wanted to bathe his faddish mediocre talent in Verdis fame, and his wife wanted to keep him busy. so it ended with two operas which never should have been written. Of course Verdi didn't become a bad composer, they contain all of his experience and none of his inspiration.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Trovatore gets my vote, hands down!
CHSIII
wrote in message
news:8fc6b81b-4ebb-459f...@googlegroups.com...
Jonathan Ellis
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:wvydnS8CzoZIhQrJ...@earthlink.com...
However, out of the "famous" ones - the ones that get regularly
performed - it is probably the one closest to the edge of being dropped.
BUT, it's still a long way ahead of any number of Verdi operas that
never get a look-in. Oberto, Un Giorno di Regno, Luisa Miller,
Stiffelio...
-- JLE
Willem
James
> His worst opera(s)? Well it is probably Otello and Falstaff.
> They really should have left the poor old man alone. He could
> have finished his career with the requiem and that would have
> been a glorious conclusion to his vast musical output.
> But Ricordi wanted to squeeze more money out of his cashcow,
> Boito wanted to bathe his faddish mediocre talent in Verdis
> fame, and his wife wanted to keep him busy. so it ended with
> two operas which never should have been written.
Mefistofele. Just played it, twice. Of the 2 full versions I have
my preferred version is the 1958 Siepi/DelMonaco/Tebaldi/Serafin.
Perhaps not coincidentally on account of talent the same pairing of
Del Monaco and Tebaldi feature in my favourite of my 13 recordings
of Otello, Karajan 1961, which I spun up only last week.
I could publish a long list of music that does nothing for me and
quite a long list of "music" that makes me reach for the off-switch,
and there is the point. No one makes you listen to works that give
you no pleasure.
James.
James
> BUT, it's still a long way ahead of any number of Verdi operas that
> never get a look-in. Oberto, Un Giorno di Regno, Luisa Miller,
> Stiffelio...
summer[1]. It was last on a the ROH in 2007 [2].
Search too for Oberto 1997 [3] and Luisa Miller 2003 [4]. The Buxton
Festival performed Un Giorno di Regno in 2001 and Luisa Miller in
2010 [5]. Certainly not never, even in our lifetimes. Now there is
a thread topic: "opera that you'd like to see performed".
James.
1. http://www.chelseaoperagroup.org.uk/Reviews.htm
2. http://rohcollections.org.uk/work.aspx?work=655
3. http://rohcollections.org.uk/work.aspx?work=380
4. http://rohcollections.org.uk/work.aspx?work=449
5. http://www.buxtonfestival.co.uk/about/history/
Willem
CHSIII
That's good to know - Verdi's final thoughts on ballet, and a clever one it
is - Arkiv Music offers the MP3 download for $20!! - this is the recording
to have, unsurpassed since or before. Del Monaco, always a great tenor,
here, under the hands of Karajan, becomes a great artist. Tebaldi, always
both, demonstrates why she owned this role for almost her entire career.
Her Act IV is sublime.
The Decca Otello (which always sounded good)sound even better on the latest
remastering in the Originals series (this time round the ballet music is
included)
Willem
brotha.and.sis...@gmail.com
Willem
peekn...@gmail.com
I disagree with the above post from 2014. Verdi's final two operas were undoubtably among his most innovative. Otello is arguably one of his most fully realised works. That said, I have no great love for "Falstaff," despite having more than a dozen versions in my own collection. I certainly always enjoy listening to it, but it is not one that I have ever particularly warmed to. In fact, I am MUCH more fond of Otto Nicolai's earlier adaptation of the play. Not being a musician I cannot comment on it comparative merits, but I certainly consider it a much more memorable and joyous piece. The 1963 Electrola release is one of my very favorite opera recordings.