Alternate endings of Turandot
Robert Dodd
I have only been able to find information about the Alfano and Berio
endings. I know there are more out there. If you know of any other
composers who have given it a whirl please let me know?
Bebe Dodd
Roger White
I've been trying to solve the *real* riddle myself for a while - to no
avail.
Good luck.
~ Roger
Mike Richter
Since "Turandot" is still in copyright, it is not clear that another
ending could be used without permission of the publisher. To my
knowledge, the two Alfano endings and the new Berio are the only ones used.
Valfer
Valfer
rjdod...@yahoo.com (Robert Dodd) wrote in message news:<3e302d14.03030...@posting.google.com>...
Giovanni Abrate
endings composed by Alfano are lost).
The three endings that survive are:
Alfano 1 (so called even though there were possibly two earlier
compositions, that were never published). Alfano 1 is the ending written
before the premiere and accepted by Tonio Puccini and Tito Ricordi.
Unfortunately, Toscanini, for reasons that are too complex for this brief
summary, decided to butcher this ending, cutting off almost 15 minutes of
music. The very unsatisfactory result (IMMO) was the finale that has become
the "official" ending, known also as:
Alfano 2. The only merit of this very uneven and fragmented finale (because
of the cuts imposed by Maestro Toscanini) is its brevity. Singers like it
because it is much less demanding than the Alfano 1.
Recently, for reasons that have much to do with extending the opera's
copyrights (even though a change in the regulations eventually made this
move unnecessary), the publisher commisioned a new ending from Maestro
Berio. This is even less Puccinian than the Alfano 2 and (again IMMO) no
match for the very satisfactory ending that is Alfano 1.
All the above, of course, is a very personal opinion. The merits of the
three endings have been debated and will be debated ad nauseam and
constitute an interesting topic for discussion.
Add to the above the abrupt ending after Liu's death scene, as in the
premiere performance and you have a short summary of the available endings
to Turandot.
I think by now you can feel that I really like Alfano 1 and wish that IT
were used as standard.
Now, let the opinions fly!!!!
Good luck with your research!
Giovanni Abrate
"Robert Dodd" <rjdod...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3e302d14.03030...@posting.google.com...
Roger White
I believe the Alfano 1 ending has been recorded, although not a part of
the complete opera. I'd appreciate knowing which recording this is.
Thanks,
~ Roger
Giovanni Abrate
a. A recording of Opera finales by Josephine Barstow on Decca
b. As a bonus track on the CD set of Alfano's "Resurrezione" on the SRO
label.
Regards,
Giovanni
"Roger White" <comes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7578-3E6...@storefull-2193.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Roger White
Thank you.
~ Roger
Dan
rest of the opera. I am so glad Toscanini cut it because it sounds like a
cheesy Hollywood movie track in parts due to its crude, brutish
orchestration. It's also long, and by that point the opera's lost a lot of
sense, so why prolong it? I heard the Barstow CD, and sat through the
ending, knowing for sure I would never listen to it again.
Dan
"Giovanni Abrate" <try...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:00z8a.22209$0L3.9...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
to be typed in
news:wZdaa.69799$em1....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com:
> The Alfano 1 is terrible I think. It's too long, and sounds nothing like
> the rest of the opera. I am so glad Toscanini cut it because it sounds
> like a cheesy Hollywood movie track in parts due to its crude, brutish
> orchestration. It's also long, and by that point the opera's lost a lot
> of sense, so why prolong it? I heard the Barstow CD, and sat through the
> ending, knowing for sure I would never listen to it again.
How was the singing?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Mark Coy tossed off eBay? http://makeashorterlink.com/?M2B734C02
RMCR's most pointless, dumb and laughable chowderhead: Mark Coy.
Juan I. Cahis
>The Alfano 1 is terrible I think. It's too long, and sounds nothing like the
>rest of the opera. I am so glad Toscanini cut it because it sounds like a
>cheesy Hollywood movie track in parts due to its crude, brutish
>orchestration. It's also long, and by that point the opera's lost a lot of
>sense, so why prolong it? I heard the Barstow CD, and sat through the
>ending, knowing for sure I would never listen to it again.
>
>Dan
I strongly disagree, it is a beautiful and excellent piece of music,
that it deserves to be heard more often, and many good recordings of
the complete opera with it.
Thanks
Juan I. Cahis
Santiago de Chile (South America)
Email: jic...@attglobal.net
Note: Please forgive me for my bad English, I am trying to improve it!
acca
immediately.
Number Two: See if you can find the play "Turanda" to see how it was
handled there. Or even better, see if you can find the original fable,
allegedly Romanian, though I believe it to be more "Central Asian" and
see how the story was told orginally.
rjdod...@yahoo.com (Robert Dodd) wrote in message news:<3e302d14.03030...@posting.google.com>...
Dan
the worst thing I've ever heard in a "praised" studio recording . She sounds
ok as Turandot but overparted IMHO. The tenor (I don't remember the name)
was there to fill out the tenor requirements and that's about it, and he
didn't really do that too well either.
Dan
"Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)" <oy兀earthlink.net>
wrote in message news:Xns9337CF3DD4D...@207.217.77.22...
Dan
having never heard of it. If you have any evidence to back that claim please
let me know because I would certainly like to find out.
Dan
"acca" <accad...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4c16c425.03030...@posting.google.com...
Matthew B. Tepper (posts from uswest.net are forged)
> Mediocre. I never much liked Barstow. Her Amelia on the Karajan Ballo
> was the worst thing I've ever heard in a "praised" studio recording .
> She sounds ok as Turandot but overparted IMHO. The tenor (I don't
> remember the name) was there to fill out the tenor requirements and
> that's about it, and he didn't really do that too well either.
>
> Dan
Oh well, thanks for the reply. So I guess I won't have to bid very high
when it inevitably shows up on eBay....
skip
"Dan" <dpet...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:Ayoaa.182510$UXa....@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
skip
in 1720, was a poet, playwright, and champion of the traditional Italian
drama form known as Commedia Dell'Arte. One of the most popular writers of
his day, he was the author of a number of fanciful "fiabe" (fables or fairy
tales, often on Oriental themes) including La Donna Serpente (The Snake
Woman), Il Re Cervo (The King Stag) and L'Augellin Belverde (The Green
Bird). He is best known today for his plays Turandot and The Love for Three
Oranges, which inspired classic operas by Puccini and Prokofiev.
"Dan" <dpet...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:Ayoaa.182510$UXa....@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
skip
A theatrical fable, which was performed for the first time in Venice in
1762. This also appeals to the taste for the exotic in vogue, and to the
desire for able reconstruction, at times too fantastic, of faraway
environments and worlds. The story brings together some of the motifs of the
collection of Persian tales, "Le mille e un giorno"(The Thousand and One
Days) . The beautiful but untrusting Princess Turandot promises her hand in
marriage to whoever manages to solve three difficult riddles. Whoever fails
to guess correctly, will be beheaded. Calaf, a prince who has fallen on hard
times, manages to solve the three riddles, but, moved by the sadness of the
princess, is prepared to forego marriage if she can guess his name. Turandot
imprisons Calaf's father and minister, but gets nothing out of them. At this
point Adelma, one of Turandot's slaves, tries to persuade Calaf to escape
with her. (She has been in love with Calaf ever since he was at her court,
when she was still a princess.) Calaf resists, but lets slip his name,
which Adelma reveals to Turandot The latter, having gained her victory,
marries Calaf, with whom she has, by now, fallen in love.
The story is well told and there are moments of great theatrical effect,
such as the scene of the riddles and the finale, with its various twists.
This fable had a huge success, being ably translated into German by
Friedrich Schiller, and being staged, in this version, by Goethe at the
theatre of Weimar. At the beginning of the 1900s, the fable was set to music
by the great Italian composer Giacomo Puccini (1858-1924), who emphasised
the setting and the characterisation of the female figures, revisiting the
fashion for all things oriental, which was once more in vogue in the first
part of the century. Puccini's Turandot is still performed today in our
opera houses with great success..
"Dan" <dpet...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:Ayoaa.182510$UXa....@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Stelucia
> Number One: Run a stake in the heart of the Berio "ending"
> immediately.
>
> Number Two: See if you can find the play "Turanda" to see how it was
> handled there. Or even better, see if you can find the original fable,
> allegedly Romanian, though I believe it to be more "Central Asian" and
> see how the story was told orginally.
>
The story/fable is definitely not Romanian.
Giovanni Abrate
complements the rest of the opera well. After all, the great bulk of the
music in it is Puccini's. As the Berio finale shows, the Alfano endings use
Puccini's music to good effect: the first half is all Puccini's.
I agree with you on one account: in the Barstow CD the orchestration seems
too "Hollywoodiana": I find that the treatment of the brass section is very
poorly handled. In the SRO disc, the orchestration sounds vastly improved,
thanks to much more sensitive conducting and better singing by the soprano.
Barstow just cannot cope with the tessitura and her singing is very
strained, to the point of generating discomfort in the listener.
Alfano1 is too long? I respectfully disagree: it is the length that is
required to provide a more linear and continuous flow of Puccini's music,
with tactful additions by Alfano where they are required.
Dan, if you have not heard the SRO disc, try and do so, as the performance
is really an eye-opener (and if you don't have Resurrezione, you should!)
Take care,
Giovanni
"Dan" <dpet...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:wZdaa.69799$em1....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
acca
acca
> immediately.
>
> Number Two: See if you can find the play "Turanda" to see how it was
> handled there. Or even better, see if you can find the original fable,
> allegedly Romanian, though I believe it to be more "Central Asian" and
> see how the story was told orginally.
More on the origins of the Turandot story - Persian:
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/eacp/webcourse/chinaworkbook/ideas/influence.htm
acca
> immediately.
>
> Number Two: See if you can find the play "Turanda" to see how it was
> handled there. Or even better, see if you can find the original fable,
> allegedly Romanian, though I believe it to be more "Central Asian" and
> see how the story was told orginally.
>
http://www.musicweb.uk.net/brian/turandot2.htm
More details about the origin on the Turandot story from Persia.
"Turan" means China and "doht" means daughter - Daughter of China -
Turandoht
acca
Queen of Sheba tests Solomon with three riddles
Trev(UK)
Hall,London. Scheduled soprano is Eva Urbanova. I hope to be there in
person!
Trev
"Juan I. Cahis" <jic...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:72tj6v0fcr1ktpofj...@4ax.com...
Giovanni Abrate
apotheosis of the opera, with soprano and tenor joining the choir in a
celebration of love, you'll find that it coincides perfectly with the final
choir of Alfano 1. The Toscanini cuts totally deprive the end of the opera
of this.
Giovanni
"Giovanni Abrate" <try...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:EGwaa.25252$0L3.10...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
> Chacun a son gout! I really like the Alfano 1 ending and I feel that it
> complements the rest of the opera well. After all, the great bulk of the
> music in it is Puccini's. As the Berio finale shows, the Alfano endings
use
> Puccini's music to good effect: the first half is all Puccini's.
>> Dan, if you have not heard the SRO disc, try and do so, as the
performance
> is really an eye-opener (and if you don't have Resurrezione, you should!)
> Take care,
> Giovanni
>
> "Dan" <dpet...@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:wZdaa.69799$em1....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> > The Alfano 1 is terrible I think. It's too long, and sounds nothing like
> the
> > rest of the opera. I am so glad Toscanini cut it because it sounds like
a
> > cheesy Hollywood movie track in parts due to its crude, brutish
> > orchestration.> > Dan
> >
>
>
Giovanni Abrate
Your best bet is to look for a used one at Amazon.com. They have it listed
under "Opera Finales". A search for Barstow Decca should bring it up.
Good luck,
Giovanni
PS: If you can get the SRO CD set of Alfano's "Resurrezione", the bonus
track of the Alfano 1 finale is even better than the version on the Decca
CD, IMMO.
"Andante teneramente" <db...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:Xns933B581...@127.0.0.1...
> I've been looking for the "Barstow CD" with the Alfano 1 ending.
> I found this CD:
>
> Duets of Love And Passion, DECCA
> with Renata Tebaldi, Carlo Bergonzi, Margaret Price, Carlo Cossutta,
> Franco Corelli, Joan Sutherland, Josephine Barstow, Lando Bartolini,
> Sandra Warfield
>>
> Is this the one?
> TIA
>
Giovanni Abrate
In addition, Resurrezione is an opera that is definitely worth having.
Please post your comments on the Alfano 1 ending after you have had a chance
to listen to it.
Giovanni
"Andante teneramente" <db...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:Xns933B999...@127.0.0.1...
> > This one is still listed at MDT!
> Thank you very much!
>
> --
> Regards
>
> "I don't mind inaccuracy, but I hate lying."
Mark D Lew
accad...@yahoo.com (acca) wrote:
> More details about the origin on the Turandot story from Persia.
> "Turan" means China and "doht" means daughter - Daughter of China -
> Turandoht
"Turan" does not mean China in any meaningful sense. In Persia the name was
used to refer to the desert area to the north, and by extension it applied
to anything beyond that. It is only through medieval Persia's muddled sense
of geography that Turan is associated with China.
The earliest known source of the Turandot story is Nezami's Haft Paykar,
which was written some time in the 12th century.
The article which you and Skip quoted, and the Havergal Brian page which
you cited, both say that the story derives from the Thousand and One Nights
collection. The Columbia page which you also cited does not say so
explicitly, but it claims that Gozzi's source was "a French translation of
it made in 1710" which is obviously a reference to Galland's Mille et Une
Nuits.
Can anyone confirm that the Turandot is indeed in Galland's (or anyone
else's) 1001 Nights? My understanding is that it is not. A three-volume
edition of Galland's Nuits is available on line at the BNF's site, but it's
in the form of scanned pages within a PDF which takes forever to load on my
system, so I haven't been able to look through it. Turandot is certainly
not included in any of the modern English editions of the 1001 Nights.
It is commonly asserted that Gozzi took Turandot, Il re cervo, and L'amore
delle tre melarance all from Galland's Nuits, but I find that claim
suspicious. Venetian sources seem more plausible link from Gozzi to the
originals, and I can't help wondering if the attribution to the well-known
French volume is just lazy scholarship. Is there any evidentiary basis to
the connection, other than simply by default? Il Re Cervo was included in
the Three Princes of Serendip collection, which is known to have been
published in Venetian translation in the 16th century.
mdl
Dave E
anyone know if this Gala version includes the Turandot please? According
to MDCmusic http://www.mdcmusic.co.uk/Promotions.cfm?PID=9 it has some
Zandonai on it but no mention of the Puccini.
Dave E
Andante teneramente wrote:
> "Giovanni Abrate" <try...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> --snip--
>
>>PS: If you can get the SRO CD set of Alfano's "Resurrezione", the
>>bonus track of the Alfano 1 finale is even better than the version
>>on the Decca CD, IMMO.
>
>
Dave E
searching for a copy of the SRO Risurrezione with the Turandot
supplement and found nothing. Seems clear that the Turandot is not on
the Gala set :(
Any ideas anyone?
Dave E
acca
> In article <4c16c425.03030...@posting.google.com>,
> accad...@yahoo.com (acca) wrote:
>
> > More details about the origin on the Turandot story from Persia.
> > "Turan" means China and "doht" means daughter - Daughter of China -
> > Turandoht
>
> "Turan" does not mean China in any meaningful sense. In Persia the name was
> used to refer to the desert area to the north, and by extension it applied
> to anything beyond that. It is only through medieval Persia's muddled sense
> of geography that Turan is associated with China.
Thanks. My gut sense all along was this was far more a "Central Asian"
tale than a "Chinese" one, which is why that Romanian derivation claim
didn't seem right either, unless it was Romania under the Mongols.
When in Fiji in a remote village, I told the tale about as a child in
the US when we would dig a deep hole we thought we would end up in
"China". And I asked the Fijiian children there (almost half way
around the world from my childhood story) where they would end up if
they dug a deep hole ....... and they too said ......."China".
China - the land of the Great Beyond in a lot of imaginations. Shoot,
there is a plausible case made that Marco Polo never even got there
yet "legend" asserts he went to "China".
Dave E
to call MDT and check.
By the way, the Turandot soloists on the original SRO release seem to
have been Linda Kelm ans Jon Frederic West.
Dave E
Andante teneramente wrote:
> "Giovanni Abrate" <try...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>
> --snip--
>
>>PS: If you can get the SRO CD set of Alfano's "Resurrezione", the
>>bonus track of the Alfano 1 finale is even better than the version
>>on the Decca CD, IMMO.
>
>
Dave E
Turandot on http://www.susanstacey.com/audio.html
Although the version is not confirmed the presence of the soprano with
the final chorus seems to indicate Alfano 1.
Dave E
hillary...@hotmail.com
by the artist who does "Where the Wild things are." I forget which
production version its from.
Very cool, really accents the fractured fairy tale aspect. The
production designers had some crazy imagination, even if they did
compeletely abandon the original Gozzi in spots
Hillary DePiano
Interested in a free copy of my translation of The Love of Three
Oranges? Take a peek at http://hillarydepiano.com/TLOTO/secret.htm
Stephen Jay-Taylor
the artist who does "Where the Wild things are." I forget which production
version its from."
Maurice Sendak. He designed Frank Corsaro's hysterical production of the
Prokofiev at Glyndebourne in 1982, and subsequently returned for the staging
of Oliver Knussen's setting of "Where the Wild Things Are." ( If the video
of the latter ever makes it to DVD, look out for one of the more
noble-bearing "wild things" who might very well be
SJT
modificat...@gmail.com
> I'm working on a paper about alternate endings of Puccini's Turandot.
> I have only been able to find information about the Alfano and Berio
> endings. I know there are more out there. If you know of any other
> composers who have given it a whirl please let me know?
> Bebe Dodd
Willem
Juan I. Cahis
what Alfano really wrote, and not to the pasticcio that Toscanini wrote
based on Alfano's original. This pasticcio is what is normally performed as
"Alfano's ending", which it is absolutely wrong.
To my knowledge, the true "Alfano's ending" (which is twice as long as the
pasticcio) has been recorded only two times. The first one is in a CD sung
by Josephine Bairstow called "Four Opera Finales", by Decca. And the second
one is as a filler of a complete recording of Alfano's "Rezurrezioni" on a
label called "Standing Room Only". Both recordings are very difficult to
get now.
It will be nice if your paper gives to Alfano the credit he deserves. His
authentic Finale is quite good, independently if he succeeded to match
Puccini's style 100% or not.
--
Enviado desde mi iPad usando NewsTap, Juan I. Cahis, Santiago de Chile.