DIY - Tuning
NEB
Hi everyone,
I need opinions and information. I have been for some time considering
finding out more about HOW to go about tuning reeds on buttonboxes. So I
want to know:
a) basically, how do you go about grinding the reeds to do this? I gather
you grind the tip to raise the pitch, and grind the other end to lower it,
but what are the finer details?
b) are there books available that people could recommend for someone
considering this?
Don't worry, I am NOT going to split open my Saltarelles next weekend and
dangle the angle-grinder into the box with my eyes closed... I want to find
out how easy it is if you're prepared to learn how to do it properly. I
have an old junk box or two to practice on, should I decide to bite the
bullet.
I'm sure that many will feel that "you shouldn't ever touch that sort of
thing- let a proper repair man do it", which is what I have always done
(and would continue to do unless I really felt I was competent enough).
My main motivation for this, other than sorting out a few errant notes on
my fifth (out of five!) box (a Hohner pokerwork) is ultimately to be able
to tune the amount of swing exactly as I want it. Probably many years in
the future. But having to send a box away for small overall adjustments
seems a shame.
OK, I've promised I'm not going to rush into it ham fisted. Now help me, or
shoot me down!
Neil Browning
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Andrew Purdam
>a) basically, how do you go about grinding the reeds to do this? I gather
>you grind the tip to raise the pitch, and grind the other end to lower it,
>but what are the finer details?
I've not tuned accordion reeds, as they need to be pulled out of the
box, but I've done harmoniums. I'm sure the principle is the same. I
normally use
a small multi sided file
a small butter knife with the blade bent to the right about 20 degrees
a chromatic tuner (my ear just goes fuzzy when tuning)
I use the knife to support the reed when I'm filing. (Grinding sure
sounds a bit bucolic!) As you say, file the top (reduce mass of the
most vibratory part of the reed, I guess) to raise pitch and file the
base to lower (reducing the stiffness ie WEAKENING!). Take great care
when filing, else you can break the reed (I've done that, and there
was nothing I could do to replace the reed, so that harmonium now
doesn't sound so good on that note!).
Hopefully some "professional" tuners can provide more info. I know the
tuner in Sydney has a little bellows thingy that he sets the reed onto
to draw the air through to help him tune. So I guess you'll need one
of them, too.
This raises a continuing question for me.
What makes reeds go out of tune?
Regards,
Andrew
-------------
Andrew Purdam Hall Village, Canberra, Australia
apu...@pcug.org.au http://www.pcug.org.au/~apurdam
ABRUPT, adj. Sudden, without ceremony, like the arrival of a cannon-shot
and the departure of the soldier whose interests are most affected by it.
- Ambrose Bierce, Devil's Dictionary
SNAV88
Date: Tue, Apr 20, 1999 01:36
Message-id: <371cca7d...@newshost.pcug.org.au> >>
questioned:
<< This raises a continuing question for me.
What makes reeds go out of tune?
>>
Smoke, grime, rust (moisture), dance floor oatmeal et.al., the condition of
the skins, steel hardness or quality, wax, etc......
May your reeds"speak" well of you
Steve Navoyosky
Steve's Accordion Shop
&
Accordion School
*since 1953*
<repair-rebuild-tune-customize-build>
*new & used accordions*
over 300 in stock
P.O.Box 88, Greenford, Ohio 44422
(by appointment only)
Tel: (330) 332-1111
FAX: (330) 332-5643
eMail: SNAV88 @ AOL.COM
NEB
> Really-From: apu...@pcug.org.au (Andrew Purdam)
>
> On 19 Apr 1999 13:36:30 -0400, "NEB" <N...@yale.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >a) basically, how do you go about grinding the reeds to do this? I
gather
> >you grind the tip to raise the pitch, and grind the other end to lower
it,
> >but what are the finer details?
> I use
> a chromatic tuner (my ear just goes fuzzy when tuning)
I forgot to say that I have one of these! I do have a good ear, but I
remember when I was young me and my dad tried to tune my gran's piano. We
thought: "How hard can this be, for two musicians with good ears?" We
found out.
Another related question: The reeds are set in wax. How do you get them out
neatly? As you're working on a reed, you have to try it back in the block
often. Surely you don't have to redo the wax thing each time? Any
comments/tips on this?
Neil
fred veenschoten
not too hard because you can slip the reed plate back in place and test it.
with the accordion I tune the reeds while still waxed into the block. I took
an old bellows and built a foot powered tuning table. this made life much
easier. however tuning for musette I found to be quite a challenge. someone
here mentioned something about tuning the lower octave 10 cents sharp and
the higher octaves 5 cents sharp. am I correct in this?
thanks,
fred v
NEB wrote in message <1710552...@yale.ac.uk>...
SNAV88
Date: Tue, Apr 20, 1999 18:10
Message-id: <1710552...@yale.ac.uk>
>>
wrote:
<< Another related question: The reeds are set in wax. How do you get them out
neatly?
>>
Well, the main answer would be "carefully" and this is accomplished with a few
special tools that quickly remove the reeds from the block.
<<
As you're working on a reed, you have to try it back in the block often.
Surely you don't have to redo the wax thing each time? Any comments/tips on
this? >>
You cannot be accurate by returning the reed plate to the block without waxing
it. The technician uses a provino (tuning table) to do this work prior to
waxing. In fact, there are three different tunings that are a must before
waxing the reeds in.
Many believe that tuning reeds while on the block is "tuning" and that is not
so. That particular process is "spot" tuning and is not all that accurate.
Setting the temperament properly between two voices cannot be accomplished in
this manner.
True accordion tuning is removal of the reeds from the block, removal and
disposal of the skins, cleaning of wax from the reed plates and blocks, removal
of rust, soaking reeds in a special solution, washing/drying reeds, first
tuning (temperament) and voicing, application of skins, etc., second tuning,
waxing (new wax) of reeds onto blocks, third tuning, and the fourth tuning
within the instrument.
Now you have a reed overhaul/tuning that plays like it did when it was first
"baptized."
Kamphorst
|
|> Really-From: apu...@pcug.org.au (Andrew Purdam)
|>
|> On 19 Apr 1999 13:36:30 -0400, "NEB" <N...@yale.ac.uk> wrote:
|>
|> >a) basically, how do you go about grinding the reeds to do this? I
|gather
|> >you grind the tip to raise the pitch, and grind the other end to lower
|it,
|> >but what are the finer details?
|[snip]
|> I use
|> a chromatic tuner (my ear just goes fuzzy when tuning)
|
|I forgot to say that I have one of these! I do have a good ear, but I
|remember when I was young me and my dad tried to tune my gran's piano. We
|thought: "How hard can this be, for two musicians with good ears?" We
|found out.
|
|often. Surely you don't have to redo the wax thing each time? Any
|comments/tips on this?
|
I have been rather busy lately (and still am) and the keyboard of my laptop dit
not work for half of the keys last two weeks. For this reason I could not
respond directly.
Last twelve month's there has been a lot of messages re tuning. I am not
familiair with searching in Deja-news (?) but there you should find a lot of
information about this subject (even my questions and answers).
I too had plans for tuning DIY but postponed this for a long time in the
meantime trying to learn the *art*.
I go regularly to workshops at the atelier of Karel van der Leeuw (Dutch builder
of diatonics) and he learned me the basics of tuning the reeds. If possible do
not take the reedplates out but keep these waxed and then try to tune. This is
not easy for the reeds on the pull. If you dare, you pull up the reed trhough
the slot from under the leather and make the scratching or filing where you
intend to do that. It really matters whether the reedplates are mounted on the
reedblock or not. The fine-tuning is even done with the reedblock mounted!
I am not familiair with the theory behind it but I now have experienced the
above in practice. As far as I have understood it, it is very important to have
the reed well connected to the biggest possible mass to get the tuning to
perfection.
Gert-Jan
__________________________________________
Diatonisch Nieuwsblad (Diatonic Quarterly)
E-Mail: diatonisch...@tref.nl
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Gert-Jan Kamphorst
Korte Ouderkerkerdijk 10 / Ship
1096 AC Amsterdam
The Netherlands
Voice: +31 (0)20-6684487
E-Mail: gjak...@tref.nl
________________________
Han Speek
In article <1710552...@yale.ac.uk>,
"NEB" <N...@yale.ac.uk> writes:
>
>> Really-From: apu...@pcug.org.au (Andrew Purdam)
>>
>> On 19 Apr 1999 13:36:30 -0400, "NEB" <N...@yale.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >a) basically, how do you go about grinding the reeds to do this? I
> gather
>> >you grind the tip to raise the pitch, and grind the other end to lower
> it,
>> >but what are the finer details?
> [snip]
>> I use
>> a chromatic tuner (my ear just goes fuzzy when tuning)
>
> I forgot to say that I have one of these! I do have a good ear, but I
> remember when I was young me and my dad tried to tune my gran's piano. We
> thought: "How hard can this be, for two musicians with good ears?" We
> found out.
>
> Another related question: The reeds are set in wax. How do you get them out
> neatly? As you're working on a reed, you have to try it back in the block
> often. Surely you don't have to redo the wax thing each time? Any
> comments/tips on this?
>
> Neil
>
Hi Neil,
You definitely need a chromatic tuner, and a good one too - not just the
cheapo type which only has LEDs as indicators, but one with a proper scale
in cents. It may help to also use an external mike rather than the simple
mike that's built into these tuners, as the built-in ones aren't very
sensitive to low notes (for when you want to tune your left-hand reeds).
For the wax, if it's just for repairing instruments, a low-power (say 15
watts or so) soldering iron will do. If you're going to build or renovate
entire reed-blocks, you may want to buy (or build your own) a "wax-pot",
which is basically the same thing as what violin makers and luthiers call
a "glue-pot": a contraption that heats, but doesn't allow the contents to
boil. Then you can simply apply the wax with a small palette-knife or
similar.
But since you ask about re-doing the wax thing, were you planning to remove
the reed plates from the block, and THEN tune them ? That's not the way it
should be done, and it doesn't work if you do it. The contact of the reed
plate to the reed block (and wax) affects the pitch of the reed, so you have
to tune it in the situation it will be used - ON THE BLOCK, and preferably
with the block still attached to the part of the instrument it is normally
mounted on !
Of course this means that the really tricky part is tuning the reeds on the
inside of the reed plate :-) That's why they have invented special tools to
work on these reeds, like "reed pullers", and various types of "scratchers".
The reed on the outside can be easily dealt with using a file (I prefer
using a small, half-round file, rather than the more commonly used triangular
type).
Hope this helps a bit,
Han.
P.S. Haven't done the review yet - too busy with other things :-(
--
H. Speek, B.Sc. H.S...@el.utwente.nl
MESA Research Institute http://www.ice.el.utwente.nl/~han/
Univ. of Twente, P.O. Box 217, 7500 AE, Enschede, The Netherlands
NEB
> Really-From: h...@ice.el.utwente.nl (Han Speek)
> > Another related question: The reeds are set in wax. How do you get them
out
> > neatly? As you're working on a reed, you have to try it back in the
block
> > often. Surely you don't have to redo the wax thing each time? Any
> > comments/tips on this?
> >
> > Neil
> >
> Hi Neil,
>
> You definitely need a chromatic tuner, and a good one too - not just the
> cheapo type which only has LEDs as indicators, but one with a proper
scale
> in cents. It may help to also use an external mike rather than the simple
> mike that's built into these tuners, as the built-in ones aren't very
> sensitive to low notes (for when you want to tune your left-hand reeds).
OK, got it.
> For the wax, if it's just for repairing instruments, a low-power (say 15
> watts or so) soldering iron will do.
I did this once to refit a reed that popped out.
> But since you ask about re-doing the wax thing, were you planning to
remove
> the reed plates from the block, and THEN tune them ? That's not the way
it
> should be done, and it doesn't work if you do it. The contact of the reed
> plate to the reed block (and wax) affects the pitch of the reed, so you
have
> to tune it in the situation it will be used - ON THE BLOCK, and
preferably
> with the block still attached to the part of the instrument it is
normally
> mounted on !
There are two different approaches getting through here. sna...@aol.com
(SNAV88) (sorry, can't put a name to the gobbledygook!) says take all the
reeds off, clean and replace everything in sight, all the while tuning up
to four times. Han S. and others say do pretty much everything with all the
reeds on the block if possible. Surely the former is more of a complete
overhaul, although obviously a good thing, is not really what I have in
mind.
If I send a 'box to a shop asking them to "tune it", then what would they
do? Would the assumption be that a tuning of everything ON THE BLOCK is
required? For example, I bought a second hand Hohner Pokerwork, and sent it
to 'The Music Room' (formerly Dave Mallinson Music) here in the UK to be
"dry tuned". It came back sounding very nice indeed and I was well pleased.
Would the reeds have been taken off the blocks to do this?
> Of course this means that the really tricky part is tuning the reeds on
the
> inside of the reed plate :-) That's why they have invented special tools
to
> work on these reeds, like "reed pullers", and various types of
"scratchers".
> The reed on the outside can be easily dealt with using a file (I prefer
> using a small, half-round file, rather than the more commonly used
triangular
> type).
Sounds helpful. Where would I get them from?
NEB
[snip]
> Last twelve month's there has been a lot of messages re tuning. I am not
> familiair with searching in Deja-news (?) but there you should find a lot
of
> information about this subject (even my questions and answers).
I'm not familiar with it either. Can anyone tell me how do I it?
> If you dare, you pull up the reed through
> the slot from under the leather and make the scratching or filing where
you
> intend to do that.
Thinking about it, it should be possible to tell by looking at where the
scratching is on the pull reeds whether the reed was tuned in situ or not?
Am I right?
fred veenschoten
it is a news group search engine. type in some key words and it will search
for those in all news groups.
good lick,
fred v
NEB wrote in message <1628414...@yale.ac.uk>...
Dan Lavry
<1dqmczs.1j9...@p11.nas1.is5.u-net.net>...
> SNAV88 <sna...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Smoke, grime, rust (moisture), dance floor oatmeal et.al., the
condition of
> > the skins, steel hardness or quality, wax, etc......
>
> Strathspey, of course, where overnight porridge-falls of eight inches or
> more are not unknown, thus explaining the slowness of the steps.
Pardon me for "barging in" to a concertina discussion (I am a piano
accordion player). The stuff you mentioned (Smoke, grime, rust (moisture),
dance floor oatmeal et.al) is a common problem for all reed instrument, yet
it seems easier to handle then a problem such as trying to hang on to a
rope in one hand, your tina with the other, while the ship is going up and
down and water is splashing all over the place...
I wonder if they had waterproof concertina. I know they were not playing at
the middle of a serious storm, but I can not imagine the environment to be
very instrument friendly, not even at the captain's spaces.
How did they handle that? Does anyone know?
Best Regards
Dan Lavry
SNAV88
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 17:23
Message-id: <1623276...@yale.ac.uk>
>>
wrote:
<< If I send a 'box to a shop asking them to "tune it", then what would they
do? Would the assumption be that a tuning of everything ON THE BLOCK >>
It depends much on the condition of those reeds and skins and wax. If the
skins are curled, if the wax is brittle, if the reeds are coated with grime,
rust, etc., then I advise the owner to do a "complete" tuning.
I refuse to mutilate good reeds that have the above conditions.
It may be easier for some to tune with reeds on the blocks, as not much work is
done, but why tune dirty reeds when perhaps a soak/wash job will bring those
reeds back to or near pitch? This is true with the high reeds.
But, they're your reeds and your investment....
Han Speek
Hi Neil,
In article <1623276...@yale.ac.uk>,
"NEB" <N...@yale.ac.uk> writes:
>> For the wax, if it's just for repairing instruments, a low-power (say 15
>> watts or so) soldering iron will do.
>
> I did this once to refit a reed that popped out.
OK, so you know what I'm talking about. But be careful, if the wax get too
hot it burns - first it turns black, and then it simply disappears. Black
smears in the wax are a tell-tale sign of amateur repair work :-(
So either a low-power soldering iron (I think 15 Watt is smallest you can
get), or one of the expensive types with temperature control are the best
choice.
And somehow, somewhere you should try to get hold of a block of real accordion
wax, for repairs on instruments where the wax is already old and brittle.
>
> There are two different approaches getting through here. sna...@aol.com
> (SNAV88) (sorry, can't put a name to the gobbledygook!) says take all the
> reeds off, clean and replace everything in sight, all the while tuning up
> to four times. Han S. and others say do pretty much everything with all the
> reeds on the block if possible. Surely the former is more of a complete
> overhaul, although obviously a good thing, is not really what I have in
> mind.
In real life SNAV88 is Steve Navoyosky, and basically he's right. But hardly
any squeezebox repair man (person ?) I know will do it the way he suggests.
And no box owner I know will want to pay for the amount of work involved -
one or two concert level professional accordion players excepted.
>
> If I send a 'box to a shop asking them to "tune it", then what would they
> do? Would the assumption be that a tuning of everything ON THE BLOCK is
> required? For example, I bought a second hand Hohner Pokerwork, and sent it
> to 'The Music Room' (formerly Dave Mallinson Music) here in the UK to be
> "dry tuned". It came back sounding very nice indeed and I was well pleased.
> Would the reeds have been taken off the blocks to do this?
A box that has been played regularly by a non-professional musician (so not
extremely dusty or rusty, but also not worn out from many hours of playing)
will hardly need more then what Steve called "spot tuning" - the reeds will
be roughly in tune, and you only need to bring 'roughly' up to 'acceptable'
(or 'perfect', if that is at all possible for us human beings).
A good repairman will however start by checking, and where needed replacing,
the valves, and to replace the ones on the inside the reed plate will have to
be taken off the block, and re-seated when the new valve is in place and
trimmed to proper length (another thing you may need: spare valves of various
sizes).
>
>> Of course this means that the really tricky part is tuning the reeds on
> the
>> inside of the reed plate :-) That's why they have invented special tools
> to
>> work on these reeds, like "reed pullers", and various types of
> "scratchers".
>> The reed on the outside can be easily dealt with using a file (I prefer
>> using a small, half-round file, rather than the more commonly used
> triangular
>> type).
>
> Sounds helpful. Where would I get them from?
Most of the repairmen I know made their own (not the file, of course, but
the other tools), and one "inherited" them from the person who trained him
in this work. Hohner used to supply (well, sell for a lot of money) them to
authorized repairmen, and also a foot-driven "tuning table" (which is
basically a bellows mounted under a table, while the table top has a hole
in it over which you can the end of the instrument, with the reed blocks
though the hole. This way you can sound the reeds without having to
reassemble the instrument all the time.).
I've fashioned my own tuning tools from surplus dentist tools, so at least
my scratchers all have nice handles :-)
Han.
Han Speek
Hi once more, Neil,
In article <1628414...@yale.ac.uk>,
"NEB" <N...@yale.ac.uk> writes:
>
> Thinking about it, it should be possible to tell by looking at where the
> scratching is on the pull reeds whether the reed was tuned in situ or not?
> Am I right?
>
Well, yes, you're right, but even in Steve's thorough approach there will
be scratches, as the final step is still 'spot tuning', so in situ as you
call it. It would be rare to find an instrument where NONE of the reeds
have scratches. At least the tremolo reeds (the ones that are tunes slightly
above or below proper pitch) will not be at the factory-supplied correct
pitch any more, so would have scratches, even in a new instrument.
Michael Berenstein
> down and water is splashing all over the place...
> I wonder if they had waterproof concertina. I know they were not playing at
> the middle of a serious storm, but I can not imagine the environment to be
> very instrument friendly, not even at the captain's spaces.
> How did they handle that? Does anyone know?
>
Could it be that water and salt is not that much of a problem for brass reeds
and reedplates, and if your concertina is airtight, so it is watertight,
althought I don't see any point of it to be watertight. Steel parts, buttons
or springs aren't catching all that much of rust, because the instrument is
kept in box and played inside of the ship or in a nice weather outside, etc.
We're not talking about wooden sailing ships, are we? Steam ships have as much
salty moisture inside as my own house, and they are heated too. I think even
the accordion would probably hold for years on a ship if taken simple care and
not exposed to outside air too often.
(all my guesses)
SNAV88
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 21:38
Message-id: <7flcv9$9g4$2...@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl>
>>
wrote:
<<
In article <1628414...@yale.ac.uk>,
"NEB" <N...@yale.ac.uk> writes:
>
> Thinking about it, it should be possible to tell by looking at where the
> scratching is on the pull reeds whether the reed was tuned in situ or not?
<< Well, yes, you're right, but even in Steve's thorough approach there will
be scratches, as the final step is still 'spot tuning', so in situ as you call
it. It would be rare to find an instrument where NONE of the reeds have
scratches. At least the tremolo reeds (the ones that are tunes slightly above
or below proper pitch) will not be at the factory-supplied correct pitch any
more, so would have scratches, even in a new instrument.
>>
If you see a "scratch" on pull or push reed tongues, your reeds are in fine
shape. But if you see "gouges" on pull or push reed tongues, then you know that
the person doing this work is doing an injustice to the reed tongues as this
just is not the "respected" way that reeds should be treated. Seeing "gouges"
tells me that the easy way or drastic way, was sought to change the pitches.
Scratch means to scratch, not gouge repeatedly. Doing this ruins the reed
tongue and its properties.
Being the heart of the accordion, reeds should be cared for with love and
respect. They are valuable and expensive. Someone who does these things as well
as tuning with the grinder and electronic device, is not a tuner in the true
sense. It may get you to where you want it to sound....but at the expense of
the valuable reeds.
Han, the only "scratch" you'll find on my work will be in the final tuning and
then only a thin scratch on *some*, not all, of the reeds. Prior to that, the
three tunings are done with a file and you'll see diagonal markings made by
those files.
Where reeds were/are stamped to pitch, one might not find scratch marks, as in
cheaper accordions where accurate pitch was not done.
The vibrato reed *can* also be vacant of markings as these are tuned on a
provino under a new temperament scale.
Care of the reed is paramount....if one cares. Otherwise, go ahead and
mutilate them if you wish as it takes only money
to replace them.....if the reeds are available.
SNAV88
Date: Wed, Apr 21, 1999 21:30
Message-id: <7flcgq$9g4$1...@dinkel.civ.utwen >>
wrote:
<< In real life SNAV88 is Steve Navoyosky, and basically he's right. But hardly
any squeezebox repair man (person ?) I know will do it the way he suggests. And
no box owner I know will want to pay for the amount of work involved - one or
two concert level professional accordion players excepted.
>>
Hmmmmmm. If the skins are bad, reeds dirty and rusty, wax brittle....I suppose
(for the sake of less work) they just re-skin and re-wax, and THEN begin the
gouging and grinding? If so, it's amazing. The Italian reedmakers would hang
them. No reflection on you, Han. I'm just using your post as a springboard.
It takes time to do it correctly, but quality workmanship is quality
workmanship.
Perhaps those persons are ones who also state that skins last forever and all
one has to do is curl them? Not so.
<< A box that has been played regularly by a non-professional musician (so not
extremely dusty or rusty, but also not worn out from many hours of playing)
will hardly need more then what Steve called "spot tuning" - the reeds will be
roughly in tune, and you only need to bring 'roughly' up to 'acceptable'
(or 'perfect', if that is at all possible for us human beings).
A good repairman will however start by checking, and where needed replacing,
the valves, and to replace the ones on the inside the reed plate will have to
be taken off the block, and re-seated when the new valve is in place and
trimmed to proper length (another thing you may need: spare valves of various
sizes). >>
Right on, Han. And worth reposting. One thing also is that in replacing that
reed, new wax is required after cleaning the old crevice.
Kimric Smythe
>
> OK, so you know what I'm talking about. But be careful, if the wax get too
> hot it burns - first it turns black, and then it simply disappears.
> get), or one of the expensive types with temperature control are the best
> choice.
I got a small electronics soldering iorn and hooked it up to a light
dimmer (same as the one in your house) this gives you nice control over the
heat of the iorn . The dimmer costs about $6 USD.
> >> The reed on the outside can be easily dealt with using a file (I prefer
> >> using a small, half-round file, rather than the more commonly used
> > triangular
> >> type).
> >
> > Sounds helpful. Where would I get them from?
A good hardware store should have "needle files". Otherwise try a hobby
store that sells kits and stuff.
Good Luck
Kimric Smythe
Bruce Gerow
iron with a diode in the circuit that cuts the power through half wave
rectification.It works for me.Also,I take a standard tip and squash it in a
vise to get a shap that is very thin which helps sometimes.
LooseBruce
Jonathan & Elsbeth Taylor
A German slang word for accordion is "Schifferklavier" (= sailors' piano),
so they must have been fairly common shipboard instruments at one time.
I have no idea what the connection is regarding another word I have heard,
namely "Schweineorgel" (= pig organ). People who complain about "squeezebox"
should perhaps count their blessings.
Jonathan
> Really-From: Michael Berenstein <mi...@pixar.com>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Processed through gateway at d-and-d.com to squeezebox
> mailing list from newsgroup rec.music.makers.squeezebox
Lee Thompson-Herbert
Bruce Gerow <bge...@ny.tds.net> wrote:
>That light dimmer control sounds like a good idea.I use a small soldering
>iron with a diode in the circuit that cuts the power through half wave
>rectification.It works for me.Also,I take a standard tip and squash it in a
>vise to get a shap that is very thin which helps sometimes.
They also make "hot knife" tools that are essentially a soldering iron
with screw-on solid brass tips in various shapes and sizes.
The tiny crock pots made for heating potpourri work great as a wax pot.
The ones made by Rival go for about US$10, and only get hot enough to
melt wax, not scorch it (in fact, it takes a _long_ time to melt a block
of beeswax, but it'll never scorch).
--
Lee M.Thompson-Herbert KD6WUR l...@crl.com
Member, Knights of Xenu (1995). Chaos Monger and Jill of All Trades.
"There are some people who will argue whether the flames are blue
or green, when the real question is that their arse is on fire."
Han Speek
sna...@aol.com (SNAV88) writes:
>
> Hmmmmmm. If the skins are bad, reeds dirty and rusty, wax brittle....I suppose
> (for the sake of less work) they just re-skin and re-wax, and THEN begin the
> gouging and grinding? If so, it's amazing. The Italian reedmakers would hang
> them. No reflection on you, Han. I'm just using your post as a springboard.
>
> It takes time to do it correctly, but quality workmanship is quality
> workmanship.
> Perhaps those persons are ones who also state that skins last forever and all
> one has to do is curl them? Not so.
>
I think the situation needs some detailing. First-off, there is a definite
shortage here in Holland when you're looking for people who can do a good
tuning job. And those that can do it have plenty of work (2 of them also
build diatonic instruments, so don't want to spend too much time on repair
and tuning work), and are not exactly waiting for the sort of work needed
on instruments in the condition you describe. I've witnessed more than once
how they manage to scare off potential customers asking for that sort of
work simply by telling them what it would cost !.
I don't think they would really "just re-skin and re-wax" dirty and rusty
reeds - they just avoid that sort of work.
But the shortage of qualified repair people leaves the field open for the
less professional (like myself :-) who will do work that the pro's would
rather not do - or for which the owner of the instrument would rather not
pay a pro's price :-( In fact, I started out doing this sort of things
myself after I've had a few instruments messed up by this sort of local
"repairmen", and ended up being totally unsatified with their work.
Han Speek
sna...@aol.com (SNAV88) writes:
>
> If you see a "scratch" on pull or push reed tongues, your reeds are in fine
> shape. But if you see "gouges" on pull or push reed tongues, then you know
> that
> the person doing this work is doing an injustice to the reed tongues as this
> just is not the "respected" way that reeds should be treated. Seeing "gouges"
> tells me that the easy way or drastic way, was sought to change the pitches.
> Scratch means to scratch, not gouge repeatedly. Doing this ruins the reed
> tongue and its properties.
again, scratching is still a bit of trial and error - only when you sound the
reed again you will found out if you did enough, or maybe just a bit too much
or too little. So you may find more that one scratch on a reed. But of course
scratching as a method to bring a reed up a half-tone, or from old pitch to
modern pitch - SHOULD NOT BE DONE ! BTW concertina reeds should not be tuned
by scratching, only with a (needle ?)file.
> Being the heart of the accordion, reeds should be cared for with love and
> respect. They are valuable and expensive. Someone who does these things as
> well
> as tuning with the grinder and electronic device, is not a tuner in the true
> sense. It may get you to where you want it to sound....but at the expense of
> the valuable reeds.
While I am certainly not in favour of using a grinder to tune reeds, I've
noticed that now all repairmen I know (even the ones I trust) are using them.
One of them even claims that it gives more control than using as file, at
least when working on the tip of a reed. Of course he also admits it's a
great time saver (which is a questionable reason for using them, I'd say).
>
> Han, the only "scratch" you'll find on my work will be in the final tuning and
> then only a thin scratch on *some*, not all, of the reeds. Prior to that, the
> three tunings are done with a file and you'll see diagonal markings made by
> those files.
Does that mean you tune the amount of tremolo while the reeds are still OFF the
reedblock ? I'm not sure that would work out on a box as sensitive as the ones
I play at the moment (light teakwood case, wooden soundboard), which have a
very minimal lower tremolo. It may work on bigger instruments like piano
accordions or chromatic button boxes, but there are constructed much more
robust, so probably less sensitive. But even then, if you want a really minimal
tremolo, I'm not sure it would work. Traditional Italinian tremolo - no problem.
SNAV88
Date: Fri, Apr 23, 1999 11:23
Message-id: <7fphnh$hbv$1...@dinkel.civ.utwente.nl> >>
wrote:
<< I see (and actually have seen, in a few instruments) what you mean. But then
again, scratching is still a bit of trial and error - only when you sound the
reed again you will found out if you did enough, or maybe just a bit too much
or too little. So you may find more that one scratch on a reed. >>
Your tool must always be sharp when you do this, and first get a good hold on
your metal before the scratch. The area where you start is important also.
Before all of this, a determination must be made on the amount of effort needed
commensurate with the pitch needed. This will eliminate a "trail and error"
process, which deteriorates the reed tongue. The best rule here is to scratch
on the "less" side and follow with your same mark with a similar strength. But
always get a good hold with a sharp tool.
<<
But of course scratching as a method to bring a reed up a half-tone, or from
old pitch to modern pitch - SHOULD NOT BE DONE ! BTW concertina reeds should
not be tuned by scratching, only with a (needle ?)file. >>
Correct on both accounts. The name of the tool is precisely how it should be
used. "Scratcher". If used otherwise, then.......
<< While I am certainly not in favour of using a grinder to tune reeds, I've
noticed that now all repairmen I know (even the ones I trust) are using them.
One of them even claims that it gives more control than using as file, at least
when working on the tip of a reed. Of course he also admits it's a great time
saver (which is a questionable reason for using them, I'd say). >>
Justification will always be present. One cannot control taking off stock with
a grinder like one can with a file. It's similar to the "scratcher" or using
the foot on a provino.....you develop an "awareness." A great time saver,
perhaps, but at what expense? The reed tongue, of course.
Today, grinders, etc., are used by reedmakers to _shape the reed profile_., not
tuning per se. I can accept that process as it takes the overall area evenly
and makes for a "modern" look as opposed to the true handmade process. One has
mentioned that as long as they make them with grinders, then he will continue
to use a grinder to tune them. It's not the same thing going on. Too many are
in a hurry to "get to pitch" and sacrifice all else. I'm sure your work is
very good, Han, if you respect the instrument as you denote, and my hat's off
to you.
<< Does that mean you tune the amount of tremolo while the reeds are still OFF
the reedblock ?
>>
Yes. Prior to fine tuning on the block and also in the instrument.
<<
I'm not sure that would work out on a box as sensitive as the ones I play at
the moment (light teakwood case, wooden soundboard), which have a very minimal
lower tremolo. It may work on bigger instruments like piano accordions or
chromatic button boxes, but there are constructed much more robust, so probably
less sensitive. But even then, if you want a really minimal tremolo, I'm not
sure it would work. Traditional Italinian tremolo - no problem. >>
Setting up the new temperament regardless of difference is what is done. I've
done this as close as two cents for some of the polka players in this
territory. The formula makes no mind, Han.
Remember, that the last fine tuning steps are done on the block, and in the
instrument if required.
When the prior work is done this way, the scratches are minimal....for it's
only used for "fine" tuning.
Nice discussion.
or...@juno.com
As somebody who has never done any reed tuning of any sort, I understand
the reasons against using a grinder to fine tune reeds - it can ruin the
temper of the steel and its hard to control the amount of material
removed. But would these same disadvantages hold true if one were to do
the fine tuning with a buffing wheel e.g. Dremel tool with a felt
polishing wheel and some jeweler's rouge? This would take off
microscopic amounts of material and wouldn't generate the heat of a
grinding wheel. Then again, maybe there is no time/labor advantage to
it.....?
Orest
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Laurie Andres
Jonathan & Elsbeth Taylor wrote:
> A German slang word for accordion is "Schifferklavier" (= sailors' piano),
> so they must have been fairly common shipboard instruments at one time.
>
> I have no idea what the connection is regarding another word I have heard,
> namely "Schweineorgel" (= pig organ). People who complain about "squeezebox"
> should perhaps count their blessings.
> Jonathan
Dang, I thought my accordion was kosher.
Laurie Andres
Bruce Gerow
grainder?
I think you will find that by "grinder" these people ARE referring to a
high speed rotary tool such as the dremel.I use one to tune reeds but I am
not a professional.I do enjoy the challange (sometimes).I have used many
different tips and found that a very small ball tip tool is like using a
scratcher.I have been guilty of tuning reeds up or down that probably
should have been cleaned and rewaxed.I have also tuned reeds a 1/2 step
different for replacement.Some I have ruined.Line and Learn...
LooseBruce
or...@juno.com wrote in article <19990423.1157...@juno.com>.....
..................But would these same disadvantages hold true if one were
to do
> the fine tuning with a buffing wheel e.g. Dremel tool with a felt
> polishing wheel and some jeweler's rouge? This would take off
> microscopic amounts of material and wouldn't generate the heat of a
> grinding wheel....................
Han Speek
"Bruce Gerow" <bge...@ny.tds.net> writes:
> Can you picture someone holding a reedblock and approaching a bench
> grainder?
> I think you will find that by "grinder" these people ARE referring to a
> high speed rotary tool such as the dremel.I use one to tune reeds but I am
> not a professional.I do enjoy the challange (sometimes).I have used many
> different tips and found that a very small ball tip tool is like using a
> scratcher.I have been guilty of tuning reeds up or down that probably
> should have been cleaned and rewaxed.I have also tuned reeds a 1/2 step
> different for replacement.Some I have ruined.Line and Learn...
> LooseBruce
>
Well, no, not such as the Dremel. The Dremel plugs directly into an AC wall
socket, and has a terribly powerful motor.
What is normally used is the smaller type of hobby drill, the ones that have
an external transformer. I own both a Dremel and one of these smaller types,
even though I don't use them for tuning reeds. They're very handy for all
kinds of drilling, cutting, routing, sanding or polishing jobs. To be honest,
my Dremel hardly gets used for any job, as it is too big for accurate work
(like installing guitar pickups) and can't handle the drill diameter for
real drilling jobs.
DoN. Nichols
Michael Berenstein <mi...@pixar.com> wrote:
>Dan Lavry wrote:
>
>> down and water is splashing all over the place...
>> I wonder if they had waterproof concertina. I know they were not playing at
>> the middle of a serious storm, but I can not imagine the environment to be
>> very instrument friendly, not even at the captain's spaces.
>> How did they handle that? Does anyone know?
>>
>
>Could it be that water and salt is not that much of a problem for brass reeds
>and reedplates, and if your concertina is airtight, so it is watertight,
>althought I don't see any point of it to be watertight. Steel parts, buttons
>or springs aren't catching all that much of rust, because the instrument is
>kept in box and played inside of the ship or in a nice weather outside, etc.
>We're not talking about wooden sailing ships, are we? Steam ships have as much
>salty moisture inside as my own house, and they are heated too. I think even
>the accordion would probably hold for years on a ship if taken simple care and
>not exposed to outside air too often.
>(all my guesses)
Well ... one problem is that the air on shipboard is humid, and
with a percentage of salt -- at least on a sailing ship. A really large
passenger liner may well be sufficiently climate controlled so there is
no problem.
However, whenever the air is warmer than then metal parts of the
instrument (concertina or accordion), it will condense onto those metal
parts as it passes by while you're playing.
The springs in concertinas tended to be phosphor bronze, not
steel, so they did well enough. Brass reeds would have no problems
either. The screws securing the clamping bar to the reed carrier tended
to be steel -- but those were not expected to be touched once the reed
was properly installed in the carrier, so there was no real problem
there as well. During the time of brass reeds, the action was the
croquet-hoop style of fulcrum, with brass on brass, so there was no
problem there.
Now -- with later instruments, especially the ones which I like
the most, Wheatstones from about the 1920s -- the reeds were steel (and
the air was flowing right past those), and the action was steel rivets
through the brass uprights and brass levers. *These* would be
particularly succeptable to rust damage from the condensation of
salt-laden humidity. I've seen quite a few instruments with varying
degrees of rust, and *one* with rust in the lever pivots as well.
So -- the old brass reed instruments were actually more immune
to the hazards of shipboard life.
Squeeze On,
DoN.
--
NOTE: spamblocking on against servers which harbor spammers.
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Donald Nichols (DoN.)|Voice (703) 938-4564
My Concertina web page: | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
DoN. Nichols
Bruce Gerow <bge...@ny.tds.net> wrote:
>Can you picture someone holding a reedblock and approaching a bench
>grainder?
>I think you will find that by "grinder" these people ARE referring to a
>high speed rotary tool such as the dremel.I use one to tune reeds but I am
>not a professional.
What I use is not a Dremel (though in the past I have used a
flexible-shaft Dremel. What I currently use is a Foredom, an industrial
grade flexible-shaft tool, with a special handpiece which has about two
inches of a *very* flexible shaft between the coupling to the normal
flexible shaft and the handpiece itself. This allows very fine control
of position and pressure. The model of the Foredom handpiece appears to
be "8D". It also has a sliding sleeve which covers the knurled collet
chuck closing ring, so you can hold closer to the actual stone for even
better control.
However -- this is not all. I use in addition to that a
foot-operated speed control which allows me to bring the speed to
whatever is appropriate for the particular reed being operated on at the
moment. This can go down to "barely visibly moving" at need.
Now -- bear in mind that what I tune is English construction
concertina reeds, *not* accordion reeds, and they are much easier to
remove from the instrument, tune in a fixture, and replace in the
instrument. Yes -- you *do* have to compensate for the pitch shift as
it returns to the instrument.
When tuning a reed, I will slide steel shim stock between the
reed and the carrier to prevent the reed from retreating into the
carrier, and exposing the carrier to defacing by the grinder.
The wheel is a small one -- the largest is about 1/2" diameter,
and much smaller ones are used as seems appropriate. The wheel is trued
with a diamond, and rounded so it will not leave steps in the reed, but
rather gradual changes in thickness. (Steps concentrate stresses, and
are very likely to produce premature failure.) For the same reason, the
previously suggested half-round needle file should be preferred to a
flat one.
The axis of the wheel is parallel to the reed's length, so it is
rotating from one side to the other. It is never just pressed into the
reed -- although that could produce a quicker shift in pitch, it could
also increase the chances of premature failure. Instead -- the stone is
drawn along the length of the reed's tongue (in the proper zone for the
direction of pitch shift required). If a second pass is needed, it is
made parallel to but beside the first one -- again to minimize thinning
the reed too much in any one area.
The important thing is to not use the full speed of the tool for
anything but the largest of reeds -- and to not allow it to operate for
long in any case. The slower the stone is turning, the less heat is
generated, and thus the less annealing of the spring stock from which
the reed was made. Even with gentle grinding you will see some effect
from the heat. Withdraw the stone and the shim stock and observe the
pitch of the reed on the tuning meter. For anything but the gentlist
touch, you will see some shift in pitch as the reed cools down. If this
take more than a very few seconds -- you've been grinding too hard, and
have been heating the reed too much.
For the smallest reeds, the stone is barely turning for the
preliminary tuning pass, and is usually not turning at all -- simply
drawn stationary along the length of the reed tongue -- to remove the
least metal possible.
I tend to use the green silicon carbide stones in a fairly fine
grit.
So a *very* controlled grinder is used -- in a very controlled
manner to minimize the possibility of injury to the reeds. Attacking a
reed with a bench grinder or an angle grinder is out of the question.
Using a surface grinder to profile the reed during initial
manufacture is within reason -- especially since the reed is heat-sinked
by the magnetic chuck, and even here only very light cuts are made for
each pass. (The magnetic chuck itself helps to enforce this, since with
more aggressive grinding, the reed will slide on the surface of the
magnetic chuck. :-)
Squeeze on (after *careful* tuning),
h...@scott.net
I use a foredom flexible shaft tool myself. It's variable speed allows me
to remove metal from the reeds v e r y s l o w l y. As a matter of
interest, I only touch the reed when my foot is off the "gas" and the foredom
tool is slowing down. I use a heat sink and do not notice much heating of
the reed. Bob Tedrow Homewood Musical Birmingham, Alabama
http://hmi.homewood.net
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Bruce Gerow
great idea.I have often wished for a 3rd hand to work the accordion bellows
I have rigged up.I think this will encourage me to make a modification.
LooseBruce
h...@scott.net wrote in article <7g7be2$as9$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Kimric Smythe
>
> Hi,
>
> Well, no, not such as the Dremel. The Dremel plugs directly into an AC wall
> socket, and has a terribly powerful motor.
> What is normally used is the smaller type of hobby drill, the ones that have
> an external transformer.
> Han.
>
Hello,
Since a dremel uses a brushed motor you can regulate the speed with a light
dimmer without hurting the motor.
Kimric
Michael Berenstein
>
> But the shortage of qualified repair people leaves the field open for the
> less professional (like myself :-) who will do work that the pro's would
> rather not do - or for which the owner of the instrument would rather not
> pay a pro's price
In this case ( as I have learned) it is a good thing to get some book (or just talk
to some handy man. or ask questions on this NG) and do this type of work yourself.
reskinning and rewaxing is easy to do. It just takes large amount of time (that's
why it cost so much),but doesn't require too much of craftsmanship. In the matter of
fact you can do a lot to your instrument before sending it to the shop. Unsticking
the keys, cleaning the reeds, waxing, skinning, even leveling the reedblocks is not
that hard if you have the belt grinder. Putting new felt and/or leather on the
palletts, leveling the keys (more or less), repair the bellows, finding leaks and
fixing them and a lot more, I can't think of now. All to save time of the tuner and
your money. In a way it's good that accordion repairmen are generally so busy,
waiting list of 6 months is not rare, but it sertainly has it's downside effect.
Michael Berenstein
> << In this case ( as I have learned) it is a good thing to get some book (or
> just talk to some handy man. or ask questions on this NG) and do this type of
> work yourself.
>
> Boy, are YOU disillusioned. It's fellows like you that cause the individual
> work cost to go up, as we have to "undo" what you "think" you have done
> correctly. *Ah! The exuberance of youth!*
>
I'm not sure what you mean "disillusioned", but Buying an old chromatic accordion
for $250 and having heard that the overhaul will run up to $1100 and it will not
be a good instrument anyways makes one think. I faced a dilemma: either toss it
(stupid), or wait for 6-7 months, save up $1100 and
hope for the best. I took perpendicular direction, had a great fun, learned tons
of useful skills, talked to a lot of professionals and guess what: - I got it
together. Not the superclass job, but again, all the pros didn't know how to undo
the glued (by somebody before me) parts of the keyboard and a friend of mine did
it. At two shops we tried to pull brass rod holding the keys and at no avail. And
then I thought a little and did it. Proffessionals are not the people who guard
their secrets of how to use a screwdriver. There's got to be more to it to make a
living from. And by no way I'm suggesting what you assuming I am. But if a nice
tuning job will run at $700 for a two row diatonic, it is better to prepare it, so
there wouldn't be any unexpected hidden costs.
SNAV88
Date: Mon, May 3, 1999 22:12
Message-id: <372E5778...@pixar.com>
>>
<< In this case ( as I have learned) it is a good thing to get some book (or
just talk to some handy man. or ask questions on this NG) and do this type of
work yourself. reskinning and rewaxing is easy to do. It just takes large
amount of time (that's why it cost so much),but doesn't require too much of
craftsmanship. In the matter of fact you can do a lot to your instrument before
sending it to the shop. Unsticking the keys, cleaning the reeds, waxing,
skinning, even leveling the reedblocks is not that hard if you have the belt
grinder. Putting new felt and/or leather on the palletts, leveling the keys
(more or less), repair the bellows, finding leaks and fixing them and a lot
more, I can't think of now. All to save time of the tuner and your money. In a
way it's good that accordion repairmen are generally so busy,
waiting list of 6 months is not rare, but it sertainly has it's downside
effect.
>>
Boy, are YOU disillusioned. It's fellows like you that cause the individual
work cost to go up, as we have to "undo" what you "think" you have done
correctly. *Ah! The exuberance of youth!*
May your reeds"speak" well of you
fred veenschoten
glued on with contact cement which ran down onto the reeds. it took two
tries to make a new bellows and quite some time on the reeds but was a very
enjoyable project. I have bought old junker accordions for $25.00 and taught
myself how to tune. use an old bellows to make a tuning table; a very
necessary item.
fred
Michael Berenstein wrote in message <372E93E7...@pixar.com>...
Peter Hyde
Hi shipmatesBut for a couple of bucks at the local op' shop you will
pick up a
sewing machine foot control this I use on my variable speed dremel, this
keeps the
speed nice and slow ( never a burnt reed)Stormy
--
MZ