John McLaughlin playing Cherokee

[zepa]

Have to agree with the 2 first comments:
- To have the testicles to do a Big Band arrangement with a nylon
string is one thing; but
then to absolutely tear it up is monumentally good.
- Looks like the band has forgotten to switch off the 'Flintstones'
button. :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om6HDUKBbzE

ZP

[David J. Littleboy]

"zepa" <zepa....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c6356568-974d-4e88...@n10g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...

Have to agree with the 2 first comments:

- To have the testicles to do a Big Band arrangement with? a nylon

string is one thing; but
then to absolutely tear it up is monumentally good.

- Looks like the band has forgotten? to switch off the 'Flintstones'
button. :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om6HDUKBbzE
<<<<<<<<<<

Nah, Flinstones is rhythm changes; completely different progression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMrv9aXOCnA&feature=related

--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

[Klatu Verata Necktie]

Are you guys fans of his nylon string sound? I'd much prefer to hear
a traditional jazz guitar sound or even a steel string acoustic sound.

He's such a talent, but sometimes I wish he'd spend more time on
melodic development rather than burning through the changes. His
playing always impresses me but doesn't often move me.

[thomas]

On Dec 19, 8:40 pm, Klatu Verata Necktie <solja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> He's such a talent, but sometimes I wish he'd spend more time on
> melodic development rather than burning through the changes.  His
> playing always impresses me but doesn't often move me.

Some guys play faster than I can hear. I assume it's my weakness.

[TD]

Don't assume too fast.

-TD

[Paul K]

I never liked that clip, I'm not sure why it surfaces here so often.
McLaughlin usually plays much better and than he does in this clip,
which just sounds like fast scale patterns rather than burning through
changes to me.

--
Paul K
http://www.youtube.com/user/fibrationboy
http://www.soundclick.com/paulkirk
http://mypage.iu.edu/~pkirk/

[Jazzer]

+1

[Bob R.]

> > Paul Khttp://www.youtube.com/user/fibrationboyhttp://www.soundclick.com/pau...
>
> +1

+2

[Frisbieinstein]

+3

I much prefer this, if you don't mind solid-body electric guitar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTtL-sjcKzU&list=FLfwksibA-c3fZqOeEH0_65w&index=102&feature=plpp_video

[zepa]

On Dec 20, 1:55 am, Paul K <fakeem...@none.com> wrote:
> On 12/19/11 9:43 PM, thomas wrote:> On Dec 19, 8:40 pm, Klatu Verata Necktie<solja...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>
> >> He's such a talent, but sometimes I wish he'd spend more time on
> >> melodic development rather than burning through the changes.  His
> >> playing always impresses me but doesn't often move me.
>
> > Some guys play faster than I can hear. I assume it's my weakness.
>
> I never liked that clip, I'm not sure why it surfaces here so often.
> McLaughlin usually plays much better and than he does in this clip,
> which just sounds like fast scale patterns rather than burning through
> changes to me.

Probably because it shows Johny Mac in a different context. Of course
he
sounds much better in thousand of other videos, but this one has an
odd
combination: JM+swing big band+nylon acoustic,etc.

It's important to remind that he was in the US (west coast) for the
Mediterranean
Concert with orchestra (the one that Miles said "John, now you can
die."). :-)
In this phase, JM was playing basically just nylon acoustic.
That's why I assume he didn't have an eletric guitar to do the TV
show.
Also, obviously even being good musicians, the big band would not be
able
to play the "Mediterranean" music, so it's not hard to imagine that
they
picked at the last minute something that would be a good fit to the
band.

ZP

[Greger Hoel]

På Tue, 20 Dec 2011 10:47:36 +0100, skrev Frisbieinstein
<patmp...@gmail.com>:

> On Dec 20, 12:42 pm, "Bob R." <brgee...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 19, 11:39 pm, Jazzer <googlejaz...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> > On Dec 19, 10:55 pm, Paul K <fakeem...@none.com> wrote:

>> > > I never liked that clip, I'm not sure why it surfaces here so often.
>> > > McLaughlin usually plays much better and than he does in this clip,
>> > > which just sounds like fast scale patterns rather than burning
>> through
>> > > changes to me.

>> > +1
>>
>> +2
>
> +3

For me, it's not the notes that irk me. It doesn't swing.

> I much prefer this, if you don't mind solid-body electric guitar.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTtL-sjcKzU&list=FLfwksibA-c3fZqOeEH0_65w&index=102&feature=plpp_video

I don't like the sound in this clip, but I far prefer the playing.

--
Sendt med Operas revolusjonerende e-postprogram: http://www.opera.com/mail/

[zepa]

> (...) which just sounds like fast scale patterns rather than burning through
> changes to me.

Forgot to add: yep, scale patterns rather than "burning" thouugh the
changes
using bebop patterns (typical arpeggios, substitions, etc) and a 1949
fat guitar
as 99% of jazz guitarists would be doing here.
Which one is the most boring approach? Hard to say...

ZP

[zepa]

On Dec 20, 11:11 am, "Greger Hoel" <nob...@home.fu> wrote:
> På Tue, 20 Dec 2011 10:47:36 +0100, skrev Frisbieinstein

> <patmpow...@gmail.com>:

>
> > On Dec 20, 12:42 pm, "Bob R." <brgee...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
> >> On Dec 19, 11:39 pm, Jazzer <googlejaz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > On Dec 19, 10:55 pm, Paul K <fakeem...@none.com> wrote:
> >> > > I never liked that clip, I'm not sure why it surfaces here so often.
> >> > > McLaughlin usually plays much better and than he does in this clip,
> >> > > which just sounds like fast scale patterns rather than burning
> >> through
> >> > > changes to me.
> >> > +1
>
> >> +2
>
> > +3
>
> For me, it's not the notes that irk me. It doesn't swing.

Huh ?
Man, JM should stop playing, as he just gets criticism here in this
forum.
I wish I could play that bad. :-)

ZP

[Greger Hoel]

På Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:27:46 +0100, skrev zepa <zepa....@gmail.com>:

> Huh ?
> Man, JM should stop playing, as he just gets criticism here in this
> forum.
> I wish I could play that bad. :-)

I sure envy his chops, but I don't envy his sense of swing. I can't
remember ever having heard him swing. That's fine, it's not his style. But
Cherokee is bebop and bebop shalt swing.

[Graham]

Having not really played it much before, I have started using Cherokee
as a daily warm-up tune for a couple of weeks now and I can see why
Bird really got into it. Usually something I've heard inspires me to
tackle a specific tune, but in this case I have no idea what made me
suddenly start playing it.

I just like the way it has so many major/minor/dom7th things happening
in quick succession in the A section, then I really dig trying to come
out of that and land right on a correct chord tone for the bridge on
C#m. Then that descending sequence on the bridge is nice. I am
starting to get this up to a fairly brisk tempo now and still nail all
the chord tones, and chuck in some Bird-like chromatic runs along the
way. Reminds me why jazz is actually a lot of fun to play, when you
get it together and the lines are flowing!

[TD]

That was no last minute thing. if you listen a bit more carefully, you
will notice that it was well arranged. In addition, JM's chord melody
was worked out (he played it the exact same way going in and going
out; not a sin, but all the more "obvious" that it was arranged from
his end as well) That band was one of the best bands ever in
television. They could play anything. Either something is liked or it
is disliked. When a lot of speculation enters the program, little else
but nonsense prevails.

-TD

[Graham]

On Dec 20, 1:20 pm, zepa <zepa.pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "burning" thouugh the
> changes
> using bebop patterns (typical arpeggios, substitions, etc) and a 1949
> fat guitar

Nicely summed up all my aspirations in one sentence.

[zepa]

> -TD

When I say "last minute" I meant to say something out of what John
was doing at the time. Of course they had some rehearsal, that's
clear,
but Cherokee (bebop swing in general) does not have any relation to
what
John was playing at that time and over all the previous years.
So, I tend to think he is playing here something related to
the big band rather than the other way around.
Also, the big band is great. It's not their capabilties that I'm
discussing.
I'm just saying that a big band is not appropriate to play the music
in
the Mediterranean suite (please, listen it and I think you will agree
with me)..
I don't think the suite would be a good fit for a TV show like that
either.
So, what I see is John having fun playing over the chords of Cherokee,
and
I like it. That's all.

> When a lot of speculation enters the program, little else but nonsense
> prevails.

Very true.

Merry Christmas and a very happy 2012.

ZP

[Paul K]

Zepa, I think the criticism is applied just to this clip, which is
sometimes held up as evidence for how great a swinging player he is.
Mclaughlin is one of the all time great jazz guitar players in my
opinion, but this is not the clip that proves that.

And, yeah, I wish I could play even halfway as badly..

[TD]

> ZP- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I love the mediteranean diet myself. Happy holidays to you, as well.

-TD

[Klatu Verata Necktie]

Looking back on some of the postings by prominent players, I can say
that there are some very touchy folks who hang around here.

I've got a pretty vast collection of music, and I don't listen to the
John McLaughlin stuff very often. I do, however, listen to quite a
bit of Scofield and Metheny. What does that say about Johhny Mac?
Absolutely nothing.

[Tim McNamara]

In article
<8be396bf-e341-4978...@o9g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,

That band was a friggin' locomotive. Must have been a thrill to be on
the front end of it blowing through a song.

Who did the arrangements? Whoever it was had to come up with those
things fast and they always sounded great.

--
"The surprising thing about humanity is that Man sacrifices his health in
order to make money. Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health. And
then he is so anxious about the future that he doesn't enjoy the present; the
result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as
if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived"
- Dalai Lama

[zepa]

Hi Paul,
Fair enough.

Happy holidays !
ZP

[zepa]

JM was a big influence on me when I was a kid.
Actually, my older brother came up with "My goals beyond" and MO
"The inner mounting flame".
That was a big impact.
I still have a huge admiration for John.
JM and Wes, as my brother brought "The further adventures of Jimmy and
Wes" as well.
I was only 9, and was trying to figure out what they were playing.
Seriously!
Even so, I don't think that my playing has much of Johny Mac.
I was born and grew up in Brazil, so I've been much more in the
Brazilian
guys (Rafael Rabelo, Gismonti, Romero Lubambo, Joao Bosco, Chico
Pinheiro, etc.).
I also have a huge collection. Virtually everything by JM, Sco and
Metheny,
but I listen all of them just ocasionally too.
That's true for any musician, btw. I listen him/her for a while, then
I switch
to another guy (not necessarly a guitarist). I believe that's how it
works for
for everyone.

Safe journeys,
ZP

[pmfan57]

I thought the band played like a roaring locomotive and you can see
they were happy to have the opportunity to show off their chops
outside of the commercial break period. Ed Shaunessy has listed this
moment as one of the favorite moments of his career and was very proud
that JM, whom he obviously, based on his comments, held in very high
regard, was delighted with the band and with him.

I think it sounds great. McLaughlin is simply not a traditional jazz
guitarist. He plays his style, which is a very original style, over
everything. You might think this isn't the best vehicle for him, but
I think it's great he wanted to use the Tonight Show band, allowing
the country to see again how good they were. Listen throughout the
arrangement and they are kicking ass.

[pmfan57]

He was playing locally and wanted to have fun with a great band
already in place. I don't think it was any big deal style wise. He
probably just thought it would sound good and would be a challenge.
The band I'm sure was thrilled for the opportunity to show off.

[zepa]

Agreed.
Btw, it was my bad include somebody else's joke about the big band. I
put a
smile to make it clear that it was just a joke, but it was not a good
idea
anyway.
The big band is pretty good, no doubt.

Cheers,
ZP

[335]

JM is at his best as an innovative fusion guitarist. He is an amazing
player in that regard. I don't think this clip quite gels in terms of
his time feel and pocket.

[pmfan57]

He wasn't releasing this as an album project. He was taking advantage
of having this great band. He was performing his guitar concerto in
LA and was on the show to promote that concert. He wasn't touring
with his band. I don't see why there is any fuss about him having fun
with the great Tonight Show band. By the way, JM sat on the couch
with Johnny that night and chatted about, among other things, the
perils of marriage. He wasn't just a musical guest.

[ecj]

On Dec 19, 2:24 pm, zepa <zepa.pi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Have to agree with the 2 first comments:
> - To have the testicles to do a Big Band arrangement with a nylon
> string is one thing; but
> then to absolutely tear it up is monumentally good.
> - Looks like the band has forgotten to switch off the 'Flintstones'
> button.    :-)
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om6HDUKBbzE
>
> ZP

Everyone always rags on McLaughlin when this clip is posted. He's
definitely not a typical bebop player, but he is able to play through
the changes with the style he developed. It's not like you can just
shred on a major scale through the whole thing like the rock guys do.
It's Cherokee, there are changes, and the stuff he's playing is
reflecting them even if it doesn't sound like Charlie Parker.

I'm a much bigger fan of his later playing when he started really
stretching his harmonic limits, but I can still appreciate the fact
that there are very few guitarists in the world who can play at this
level. I actually really like his time, too. It's certainly not
swing, but I've never really heard anyone else who intentionally and
comfortably hangs out on the front of the beat like he does. It gives
his playing a great amount of intensity.

[Johnny Asia]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:09:12 -0800 (PST), ecj <eva...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Everyone always rags on McLaughlin when this clip is posted. He's
>definitely not a typical bebop player, but he is able to play through
>the changes with the style he developed. It's not like you can just
>shred on a major scale through the whole thing like the rock guys do.
>It's Cherokee, there are changes, and the stuff he's playing is
>reflecting them even if it doesn't sound like Charlie Parker.
>
>I'm a much bigger fan of his later playing when he started really
>stretching his harmonic limits, but I can still appreciate the fact
>that there are very few guitarists in the world who can play at this
>level. I actually really like his time, too. It's certainly not
>swing, but I've never really heard anyone else who intentionally and
>comfortably hangs out on the front of the beat like he does. It gives
>his playing a great amount of intensity.

Around 1970 I saw a small ad in the back of the Village Voice,
"Master guitarist John McLaughlin", playing at a Universalist church
on Central Park West. Admission was $1.50. I was already a fan because
of Bitches Brew. I told the other 2 members of my rock band that we
have to go see him. (the drummer was Tony Thompson, later with Chic,
Power Station, Stevie Wonder, etc etc) McLaughlin was playing an
Ovation, and he blew us away. Afterwards, he told us he was looking
for a violinist to complete his new band. We attended the very first
Mahavishnu gigs at the Gaslight in the Village. I was there every
night, both sets. We got to hang out backstage, Tony started taking
lessons from Cobham. I lost interest in my old guitar idols,
McLaughlin was, and is, The Man. His playing moves me, swing or no
swing. When I read the inevitable negative comments and criticisms
here, I am reminded that guitarists can be a petty bunch.

Johnny

[Greger Hoel]

På Tue, 20 Dec 2011 23:26:42 +0100, skrev Johnny Asia <lo...@gnostic.com>:

> When I read the inevitable negative comments and criticisms
> here, I am reminded that guitarists can be a petty bunch.

Yeah, I see it everytime player X disagrees with player Y's clip of the
day worship, in here.

[335]

On Dec 20, 4:26 pm, Johnny Asia <lo...@gnostic.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:09:12 -0800 (PST), ecj <evan...@gmail.com>

I like his playing too, just not so much in this style as shown on
this clip. There's other stuff that he plays much better.

[RB]

Speaking of McL's swing sense, you guys ever seen that crazy Jaco
Pastorius vid ?
Jaco says "John is a MF, but he couldn't swing if he was DEAD".....

[Gerry]

On 2011-12-20 14:44:04 -0800, Greger Hoel said:

> På Tue, 20 Dec 2011 23:26:42 +0100, skrev Johnny Asia <lo...@gnostic.com>:
>
>> When I read the inevitable negative comments and criticisms
>> here, I am reminded that guitarists can be a petty bunch.
>
> Yeah, I see it everytime player X disagrees with player Y's clip of the
> day worship, in here.

THERE ALL A BUNCH OF HATISTS!
--
Where words fail, music speaks. -- Hans Christian Anderson

[TD]

I guess Jaco will one day find out.

-TD

[Dan Adler]

On Dec 20, 4:47 am, Frisbieinstein <patmpow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 20, 12:42 pm, "Bob R." <brgee...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 19, 11:39 pm, Jazzer <googlejaz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>

> > > On Dec 19, 10:55 pm, Paul K <fakeem...@none.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On 12/19/11 9:43 PM, thomas wrote:> On Dec 19, 8:40 pm, Klatu Verata Necktie<solja...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>
> > > > >> He's such a talent, but sometimes I wish he'd spend more time on
> > > > >> melodic development rather than burning through the changes.  His
> > > > >> playing always impresses me but doesn't often move me.
>
> > > > > Some guys play faster than I can hear. I assume it's my weakness.
>
> > > > I never liked that clip, I'm not sure why it surfaces here so often.
> > > > McLaughlin usually plays much better and than he does in this clip,
> > > > which just sounds like fast scale patterns rather than burning through
> > > > changes to me.
>

> > > > --
> > > > Paul Khttp://www.youtube.com/user/fibrationboyhttp://www.soundclick.com/pau...
>
> > > +1
>
> > +2
>
> +3
>
> I much prefer this, if you don't mind solid-body electric guitar.
>
>  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTtL-sjcKzU&list=FLfwksibA-c3fZqOeEH0_...

The Mahi Mahi orchestra. I like that...

-Dan
http://danadler.com

[thomas]

On Dec 20, 9:08 pm, Dan Adler <d...@danadler.com> wrote:
>
> > I much prefer this, if you don't mind solid-body electric guitar.
>
> >  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTtL-sjcKzU&list=FLfwksibA-c3fZqOeEH0_...
>
> The Mahi Mahi orchestra. I like that...

Because you can't tunafish.

[John Albin]

Even though it's got scales

[Bg]

> > > The Mahi Mahi orchestra. I like that...
>
> > Because you can't tunafish.
>
> Even though it's got scales

Yowie :-)
Bg

[TD]

You guys are all in the same boat.

[Bg]

I shoulda said you're the Captain tho :-(
Bg

[Johnny Asia]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 17:21:53 -0800 (PST), TD <tonyde...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Unless he's been bounced from Up There, too.

Johnny

[Johnny Asia]

Right, so John does his own thing. In spite of the old song, it does
mean a thing....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McLaughlin_

McLaughlin has been cited as a major influence on many 1970s and 1980s
fusion guitarists. Examples are prominent players such as Steve Morse,
Eric Johnson, Mike Stern, Paul Masvidal, Al Di Meola, Pebber Brown,
Shawn Lane, and Scott Henderson

According to Pat Metheny, McLaughlin has changed the evolution of the
guitar during several of his periods of playing. McLaughlin is also
considered a major influence on composers in the fusion genre. In an
interview with Downbeat, Chick Corea remarked that "...what John
McLaughlin did with the electric guitar set the world on its ear. No
one ever heard an electric guitar played like that before, and it
certainly inspired me. John's band, more than my experience with
Miles, led me to want to turn the volume up and write music that was
more dramatic and made your hair stand on end".

[Graham]

I like the CD John McLaughlin did with Joey de Francesco and Elvin
Jones (After the Rain). He sounds swingin' on that one at least.

[Thomas Scharkowski]

Frisbieinstein wrote:

> On Dec 20, 12:42 pm, "Bob R." <brgee...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 19, 11:39 pm, Jazzer <googlejaz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Dec 19, 10:55 pm, Paul K <fakeem...@none.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > On 12/19/11 9:43 PM, thomas wrote:> On Dec 19, 8:40 pm, Klatu Verata Necktie<solja...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>> > > >> He's such a talent, but sometimes I wish he'd spend more time on
>> > > >> melodic development rather than burning through the changes.  His
>> > > >> playing always impresses me but doesn't often move me.
>>
>> > > > Some guys play faster than I can hear. I assume it's my weakness.
>>
>> > > I never liked that clip, I'm not sure why it surfaces here so often.
>> > > McLaughlin usually plays much better and than he does in this clip,
>> > > which just sounds like fast scale patterns rather than burning through
>> > > changes to me.
>>
>> > > --
>> > > Paul Khttp://www.youtube.com/user/fibrationboyhttp://www.soundclick.com/pau...
>>
>> > +1
>>
>> +2
>
> +3
>

> I much prefer this, if you don't mind solid-body electric guitar.
>

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTtL-sjcKzU&list=FLfwksibA-c3fZqOeEH0_65w&index=102&feature=plpp_video
My favorite McLaughlin recording is Extrapolation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrapolation_%28album%29

Thomas

[ecj]

On Dec 21, 6:08 am, Graham <graham...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> I like the CD John McLaughlin did with Joey de Francesco and Elvin
> Jones (After the Rain).  He sounds swingin' on that one at least.

Was just going to mention this one. I prefer his playing on that
record to almost everything else I've heard from him (well, I am a
jazz fan after all). It swings, but it still maintains his unique
style and sound.

I'm definitely more into the Montgomery, Benson thing these days, but
I don't see how you could have anything but respect for McLaughlin.
Do all these people who constantly complain about him playing too many
notes too fast feel the same way about Coltrane?

[Greger Hoel]

På Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:38:36 +0100, skrev ecj <eva...@gmail.com>:

> Was just going to mention this one. I prefer his playing on that
> record to almost everything else I've heard from him (well, I am a
> jazz fan after all). It swings, but it still maintains his unique
> style and sound.

I listened to the clips on amazon.com's page. I didn't like it. It sounds
like somebody's lifting a stone from on top of the band's collective left
foot when Johnny Mac lays out. Think I'll stick with his fusion albums.

> I'm definitely more into the Montgomery, Benson thing these days, but
> I don't see how you could have anything but respect for McLaughlin.

Who's "you"? Look, the man's obviously a great guitarist; he's written
some great tunes and at close to 70, he's still better than ever at
creating momentum like a locomotive. And he still generally plays his and
the audience's ass off. Why is that, as well as his gargantuan legacy, not
enough for you people? Why do you have to pretend he swings? Or rather,
why do you feel threatened on his behalf when somebody points out one
little thing he doesn't do well? Do you only "respect" someone if you say
they can do anything? I don't think that's respect; I think it's
disrespect. Blowing smoke, etc.

> Do all these people who constantly complain about him playing too many
> notes too fast feel the same way about Coltrane?

Who's complaining about that? Who are "all those people"?

[Gerry]

On 2011-12-21 05:38:36 -0800, ecj said:

> Do all these people who constantly complain about him playing too many
> notes too fast feel the same way about Coltrane?

I hadn't heard that complaint. I thought the complaint was something
about "swing".

[Bob R.]

On Dec 21, 8:38 am, ecj <evan...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm definitely more into the Montgomery, Benson thing these days, but
> I don't see how you could have anything but respect for McLaughlin.
> Do all these people who constantly complain about him playing too many
> notes too fast feel the same way about Coltrane?

I didn't "complain" about him. I just said I didn't like that clip,
and I still don't. But that's just one tiny portion of his entire body
of work, much of which I do respect... a lot. We all get to like or
not like stuff, and it doesn't have to be the same stuff.

[ecj]

On Dec 21, 9:21 am, "Greger Hoel" <nob...@home.fu> wrote:

I've had several guitar instructors and other musicians voice the
complaint of McLaughlin's playing directly to me that he "plays too
many notes". This is a pretty common criticism of him as a musician.

As for the swinging thing, it sounds like swing to me on "After the
Rain". As much as any of the other mainstream modern guitar players I
hear. It doesn't bother me when he doesn't swing, though, so I don't
really care.

I love how quickly internet threads descend into this shit: someone
posts a clip of someone they like, someone voices a criticism, someone
pipes in to defend the original clip, others demand that everyone be
"allowed" to have their own opinion. You're welcome to your opinion.
I'm also welcome to think that you're wrong.

[ecj]

No argument there.

[335]

On Dec 21, 10:48 am, "Bob R." <brgee...@ec.rr.com> wrote:

+1

[Claus Rogge]

Am 21.12.2011 13:08, schrieb Graham:
> I like the CD John McLaughlin did with Joey de Francesco and Elvin
> Jones (After the Rain). He sounds swingin' on that one at least.

Also the live form Tokyo or something ... always wish they had made some
more records. That was with another drummer I think.

That said, I LOVE Johnny Mac ... got all his records and am completely
in awe of the spirituality he is able to communicate through his music.

--
New CD "Breaking Habits"
http://www.cdbaby.com/AlbumDetails.aspx?AlbumID=clausrogge
Music for free:
http://tinyurl.com/73efjm

[Gerry]

On 2011-12-21 09:58:33 -0800, ecj said:

> I love how quickly internet threads descend into this shit: someone
> posts a clip of someone they like, someone voices a criticism, someone
> pipes in to defend the original clip, others demand that everyone be
> "allowed" to have their own opinion.

It's amazing how much it resembles the real world.

[danstearns]

On Dec 21, 1:34 pm, Thomas Scharkowski <t.scharkow...@web.de> wrote:
> Frisbieinstein wrote:
> > On Dec 20, 12:42 pm, "Bob R." <brgee...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
> >> On Dec 19, 11:39 pm, Jazzer <googlejaz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> > On Dec 19, 10:55 pm, Paul K <fakeem...@none.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > On 12/19/11 9:43 PM, thomas wrote:> On Dec 19, 8:40 pm, Klatu Verata Necktie<solja...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>
> >> > > >> He's such a talent, but sometimes I wish he'd spend more time on
> >> > > >> melodic development rather than burning through the changes.  His
> >> > > >> playing always impresses me but doesn't often move me.
>
> >> > > > Some guys play faster than I can hear. I assume it's my weakness.
>
> >> > > I never liked that clip, I'm not sure why it surfaces here so often.
> >> > > McLaughlin usually plays much better and than he does in this clip,
> >> > > which just sounds like fast scale patterns rather than burning through
> >> > > changes to me.
>
> >> > > --
> >> > > Paul Khttp://www.youtube.com/user/fibrationboyhttp://www.soundclick.com/pau...
>
> >> > +1
>
> >> +2
>
> > +3
>
> > I much prefer this, if you don't mind solid-body electric guitar.
>

> >  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTtL-sjcKzU&list=FLfwksibA-c3fZqOeEH0_...

>
> My favorite McLaughlin recording is Extrapolation:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extrapolation_%28album%29
>

> Thomas- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

mine too......some truly timeless material on there, and Oxley and
Surman (on either baritone or soprano) are great as well

[Greger Hoel]

På Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:58:33 +0100, skrev ecj <eva...@gmail.com>:


> I love how quickly internet threads descend into this shit: someone
> posts a clip of someone they like, someone voices a criticism, someone
> pipes in to defend the original clip, others demand that everyone be
> "allowed" to have their own opinion.

And when exactly is it that whatever it was beforehand descends into shit?
Before the criticism? Before the criticism of the criticism? Before the
criticism of the criticism of the criticism?

> You're welcome to your opinion.

We, if I may speak for those who say they don't like the clip for a
second, I'd have to say we're not welcome to our opinions, at least not by
everyone. "Petty" has already been thrown out there, as well as several
variations of "who do you think you are?" just not voiced directly at
anyone, in true passive-aggressive rmmgj style.

> I'm also welcome to think that you're wrong.

Absolutely.

[TD]

It also amazes me how much the real world resembles an artifical
world.

-TD

[thomas]

On Dec 21, 10:38 am, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2011-12-21 05:38:36 -0800, ecj said:
>
> > Do all these people who constantly complain about him playing too many
> > notes too fast feel the same way about Coltrane?
>
> I hadn't heard that complaint.  I thought the complaint was something
> about "swing".

What's up with all these people saying Coltrane doesn't swing?

[ecj]

On Dec 21, 6:53 pm, "Greger Hoel" <nob...@home.fu> wrote:

> På Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:58:33 +0100, skrev ecj <evan...@gmail.com>:
>
> > I love how quickly internet threads descend into this shit:  someone
> > posts a clip of someone they like, someone voices a criticism, someone
> > pipes in to defend the original clip, others demand that everyone be
> > "allowed" to have their own opinion.
>
> And when exactly is it that whatever it was beforehand descends into shit?
> Before the criticism? Before the criticism of the criticism? Before the
> criticism of the criticism of the criticism?

When we have to stop discussing the music so that we can start
discussing posters' feelings.

If someone doesn't think McLaughlin swings, and I do, it's kind of fun
to talk about recordings and our understanding of swing feel. It's
not fun, at least for me, to talk about how someone's feelings are
hurt because other people disagreed with their assessment.

[Jazzer]

On Dec 21, 8:38 am, ecj <evan...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't see how you could have anything but respect for McLaughlin.
> Do all these people who constantly complain about him playing too many
> notes too fast feel the same way about Coltrane?

I have mucho respect for McL
Not a good comparison, McL to Coltrane.
Coltrane was able to swing despite playing 'too many notes' :)
Giant Steps swings!

[ecj]

Are you being sarcastic? Because I've definitely heard that one
before, too.

If it's unclear, I was responding the third poster of the thread who
criticized McLaughlin for playing fast and not developing melodies. I
didn't quote anyone who complained about his swing feel.

[Gerry]

HATISTS!

[Patrick Powers]

On Dec 21, 6:26 am, Johnny Asia <lo...@gnostic.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:09:12 -0800 (PST), ecj <evan...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Everyone always rags on McLaughlin when this clip is posted.  He's
> >definitely not a typical bebop player, but he is able to play through
> >the changes with the style he developed.  It's not like you can just
> >shred on a major scale through the whole thing like the rock guys do.
> >It's Cherokee, there are changes, and the stuff he's playing is
> >reflecting them even if it doesn't sound like Charlie Parker.
>
> >I'm a much bigger fan of his later playing when he started really
> >stretching his harmonic limits, but I can still appreciate the fact
> >that there are very few guitarists in the world who can play at this
> >level.  I actually really like his time, too.  It's certainly not
> >swing, but I've never really heard anyone else who intentionally and
> >comfortably hangs out on the front of the beat like he does.  It gives
> >his playing a great amount of intensity.
>
> Around 1970 I saw a small ad in the back of the Village Voice,
> "Master guitarist John McLaughlin", playing at a Universalist church
> on Central Park West. Admission was $1.50. I was already a fan because
> of Bitches Brew. I told the other 2 members of my rock band that we
> have to go see him. (the drummer was Tony Thompson, later with Chic,
> Power Station, Stevie Wonder, etc etc)  McLaughlin was playing an
> Ovation, and he blew us away. Afterwards, he told us he was looking
> for a violinist to complete his  new band. We attended the very first
> Mahavishnu gigs at the Gaslight in the Village.  I was there every
> night, both sets. We got to hang out backstage, Tony started taking
> lessons from Cobham. I lost interest in my old guitar idols,
> McLaughlin was, and is, The Man. His playing moves me, swing or no
> swing.  When I read the inevitable negative comments and criticisms
> here, I am reminded that guitarists can be a petty bunch.
>
> Johnny

Ah yes. He was a huge influence on rock. He changed everything. I
saw Mahavishnu, most intense concert you could imagine. I love what
he does.

But swing? You can't do everything.

[Bill Williams]

Bit of Wes influence in the middle of his solo in this late 60's album track with Gordon Beck, I think:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9-2NJwTdU0

[Johnny Asia]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 20:21:27 -0800 (PST), ecj <eva...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>If it's unclear, I was responding the third poster of the thread who
>criticized McLaughlin for playing fast and not developing melodies. >>

I hear the melodies in his playing.

Did you see the old Star Trek episode about the Scalosians? They were
a "hyper-accelerated" race of beings:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wink_of_an_Eye

The strange buzzing of insects encountered on the planet is now heard
aboard the ship.

Kirk puts the ship on full alert, and while he takes a coffee break on
the bridge, he notices the movements of the bridge crew seem to slow
down to a stop as if time itself is being manipulated. Suddenly, a
beautiful woman in a colorful gown appears on the bridge and addresses
Kirk. The woman identifies herself as Deela, Queen of the Scalosians,
and she explains to Kirk that the bridge crew has not slowed down, but
he has been sped up, having been matched to the Scalosian's
"hyper-accelerated" physical existence

[Frisbieinstein]

On Dec 22, 8:38 pm, Johnny Asia <lo...@gnostic.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 20:21:27 -0800 (PST), ecj <evan...@gmail.com>

The Wild Wild West did it two years before ST. Night of the Burning
Diamond. Pre Bitches Brew. Maybe John was influenced.

[Johnny Asia]

On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 22:27:52 -0800, Gerry <add...@domain.com> wrote:

>On 2011-12-21 19:26:25 -0800, thomas said:
>
>> On Dec 21, 10:38 am, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 2011-12-21 05:38:36 -0800, ecj said:
>>>
>>>> Do all these people who constantly complain about him playing too many
>>>> notes too fast feel the same way about Coltrane?
>>>
>>> I hadn't heard that complaint.  I thought the complaint was something
>>> about "swing".
>>
>> What's up with all these people saying Coltrane doesn't swing?
>
>HATISTS!

I HATE HATERS! I'm going to start a new organization,

WE HATE HATE GROUPS

[ecj]

On Dec 22, 6:38 am, Johnny Asia <lo...@gnostic.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 20:21:27 -0800 (PST), ecj <evan...@gmail.com>

Something tells me that Kirk nails this Scalosian dame before the end
of the episode.

[Johnny Asia]

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011 05:26:46 -0800 (PST), ecj <eva...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>>

>> Kirk puts the ship on full alert, and while he takes a coffee break on
>> the bridge, he notices the movements of the bridge crew seem to slow
>> down to a stop as if time itself is being manipulated. Suddenly, a
>> beautiful woman in a colorful gown appears on the bridge and addresses
>> Kirk. The woman identifies herself as Deela, Queen of the Scalosians,
>> and she explains to Kirk that the bridge crew has not slowed down, but
>> he has been sped up, having been matched to the Scalosian's
>> "hyper-accelerated" physical existence
>
>Something tells me that Kirk nails this Scalosian dame before the end
>of the episode.

That reminds me of an old joke, a bad one at that, I heard in grade
school, about little Johnny Fuckerfaster.

[Frisbieinstein]

Nah, this is 60's TV. She wants his, ah, genetic material, but Kirk
maintains his chastity. He only pretends to go along for the sake of
the free Enterprise. The guy you never heard of who gives in gets
killed.

[SP]

Personally, I think his career has been going downhill ever since he
left Georgie Fame and the Blue Flames in 1963.

:-)

[Bob R.]

We talking about McLaughlin or Shatner?