Not to start a flame war - just a youtube comment I'm passin' on
guitarannie
Django.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_lrfAXehJQ
"Before young jazzer guitarists get wrapped up in the out-of-scale
tones of be-bop, they should go through Eddie Lang's work, then on to
Johnny Smith, to hear the limitless, still modern possibilities -
within- the scale."
The comment is from Lazur1 on this page -Bye Bye Blackbird with Art
Van Damme
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bWr6JhKJHI
jimmybruno
> My personal favorite Johnny
> Django.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_lrfAXehJQ
amen to that
Tom Walls
Those damned whippersnappers with their out-of-scale tones!
Gerry
I think young jazzer guitarists should get wrapped up in whatever
pleases them and try to do something new with what ever that is.
--
-- Gerry
Mr Maj6th
<guita...@gmail.com> wrote:
>My personal favorite Johnny
>Django.
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_lrfAXehJQ
>
>
>"Before young jazzer guitarists get wrapped up in the out-of-scale?
>tones of be-bop, they should go through Eddie Lang's work, then on? to
>Johnny Smith, to hear the limitless, still modern possibilities -
>within- the scale."
>
>The comment is from Lazur1 on this page -Bye Bye Blackbird with Art
>Van Damme
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bWr6JhKJHI
If a trueism like yours starts a flame war, then we all may be in the
wrong place.
Maj6th
Mr Maj6th
>On 2011-02-06 08:18:23 -0800, guitarannie said:
>
>> My personal favorite Johnny
>> Django.
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_lrfAXehJQ
>>
>>
>> "Before young jazzer guitarists get wrapped up in the out-of-scale?
>> tones of be-bop, they should go through Eddie Lang's work, then on? to
>> Johnny Smith, to hear the limitless, still modern possibilities -
>> within- the scale."
>>
>> The comment is from Lazur1 on this page -Bye Bye Blackbird with Art
>> Van Damme
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bWr6JhKJHI
>
>I think young jazzer guitarists should get wrapped up in whatever
>pleases them and try to do something new with what ever that is.
This post surprises me since I know what a student of music history
you are!
Maj6th
Gerry
If there's no snow on the ground--we're in the right place.
--
-- Gerry
Gerry
>>> "Before young jazzer guitarists get wrapped up in the out-of-scale?
>>> tones of be-bop, they should go through Eddie Lang's work, then on? to
>>> Johnny Smith, to hear the limitless, still modern possibilities -
>>> within- the scale."
>>>
>>> The comment is from Lazur1 on this page -Bye Bye Blackbird with Art
>>> Van Damme
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bWr6JhKJHI
>>
>> I think young jazzer guitarists should get wrapped up in whatever
>> pleases them and try to do something new with what ever that is.
>
> This post surprises me since I know what a student of music history
> you are!
Well, I think it's critical to know the roots. But it's better that
folks be actively engaged somewhere, than a place that can't really
connect with emotionally. I'm crazy about Eddie Lang and jazz guitar in
the 50's, but when I was a "young jazzer guitarist" it was all about
Coryell, Connors, Scofield and other manic testosterone-heavy playing.
It's only now that a comfortable chair or footstool seems to be a
critical consideration of playing.
--
-- Gerry
Mr Maj6th
Another trueism!
Maj6th
Bg
How does one know what pleases them until they've learned or tried
everything?
Bg
Mr Maj6th
wrote:
>On Feb 6, 8:54 am, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2011-02-06 08:18:23 -0800, guitarannie said:
>>
>> > My personal favorite Johnny
>> > Django.
>> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_lrfAXehJQ
>>
>> > "Before young jazzer guitarists get wrapped up in the out-of-scale?
>> > tones of be-bop, they should go through Eddie Lang's work, then on? to
>> > Johnny Smith, to hear the limitless, still modern possibilities -
>> > within- the scale."
>>
>> > The comment is from Lazur1 on this page -Bye Bye Blackbird with Art
>> > Van Damme
>> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bWr6JhKJHI
>>
>> I think young jazzer guitarists should get wrapped up in whatever
>> pleases them and try to do something new with what ever that is.
>> --
>> -- Gerry
>
>How does one know what pleases them until they've learned or tried
>everything?
>Bg
I understand the gist of your post and agree with it, but, learned or
tried "everything?" This would be a vast task indeed, does this
including mating with an Elk?
Maj6th.
Maj6th
Tom Walls
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bWr6JhKJHI
>>
>> If a trueism like yours starts a flame war, then we all may be in the
>> wrong place.
>
> If there's no snow on the ground--we're in the right place.
Or, possibly, in the wrong time.
Bg
> On Sun, 6 Feb 2011 11:18:26 -0800 (PST), Bg <ottg...@hotmail.com>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ok I should've said "listened and be aware" of everything?
I guess I'm saying we have also to be aware of and listen to stuff
above our Comfort level.
When I first bought Coltrane's Giant Steps, I didn't like it and put
it away.
A few years later , as my ears opened up, I was quite comfortable
listening to it and enjoy it now.
Can't play it worth crap tho :-)
Bg
Gerry
>> I think young jazzer guitarists should get wrapped up in whatever
>> pleases them and try to do something new with what ever that is.
>
> How does one know what pleases them until they've learned or tried
> everything?
Ridiculous: Pleasure doesn't need any intellectual or experiential context.
How do you know if a cookie pleases you, until you've tried all forms
of pastry?
Same thing.
--
-- Gerry
van
It reminds me of the leader of a swing/dance band I gig with in
Westchester.
Whenever we play a chart that sounds too "modern" he says; "sounds
like something one of those damn bebop bands on Long Island would
play".
The tempo is smoking on this one and Smith doesn't sound as
comfortable on it as he does on up tunes on his LPs. AVD is smokin',
though.
Some guy who studied with Smith told me about the "small circles"
Smith would make with his picking hand fingers to achieve the legato
sound he was famous for.
Anyone ever heard of that?
thomas
>
> Some guy who studied with Smith told me about the "small circles"
> Smith would make with his picking hand fingers to achieve the legato
> sound he was famous for.
> Anyone ever heard of that?
"Circle picking" was a topic back in the 70s. I seem to recall Roy
Buchanan and Howard Roberts advocating it.
Paul K
>>
>> How does one know what pleases them until they've learned or tried
>> everything?
>> Bg
>
> I understand the gist of your post and agree with it, but, learned or
> tried "everything?" This would be a vast task indeed, does this
> including mating with an Elk?
>
> Maj6th.
You never know. I knew a guy, couldn't play changes or in time to save
his life. pathetic. Then he mated with an elk, and he is a beast of a
player now.
--
Paul K
http://www.soundclick.com/paulkirk
http://www.youtube.com/user/fibrationboy
http://mypage.iu.edu/~pkirk/
Paul Mitchell Brown
Anne Elk was really something ...
eric s
Hey, Van, you are here in ny/westchester? let me know when you are
playing around. Eric
nqbqbep
If that were true, there would be lots of 8-year-olds around listening
to Charlie Parker, Wes Montgomery, McCoy Tyner etc. Appreciating fine
art is a much more intellectually involved process than eating
cookies. There are levels of sophistication/maturity in one's
perception of art.
thomas
wrote:
>
> > You never know. I knew a guy, couldn't play changes or in time to save
> > his life. pathetic. Then he mated with an elk, and he is a beast of a
> > player now.
>
Not to mention Elke Sommers.
TD
Paul K
Paul Mitchell Brown
> On 2/6/11 6:07 PM, Paul Mitchell Brown wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 7, 9:39 am, Paul K<n...@none.net> wrote:
> >> On 2/6/11 2:26 PM, Mr Maj6th wrote:
>
> >>>> How does one know what pleases them until they've learned or tried
> >>>> everything?
> >>>> Bg
>
> >>> I understand the gist of your post and agree with it, but, learned or
> >>> tried "everything?" This would be a vast task indeed, does this
> >>> including mating with an Elk?
>
> >>> Maj6th.
>
> >> You never know. I knew a guy, couldn't play changes or in time to save
> >> his life. pathetic. Then he mated with an elk, and he is a beast of a
> >> player now.
>
> >> --
>
> > Anne Elk was really something ...
>
> I had to google that one. I suspect pmfan57 got it immediately...
>
> --
> Paul Khttp://www.soundclick.com/paulkirkhttp://www.youtube.com/user/fibrationboyhttp://mypage.iu.edu/~pkirk/
He's definitely a mpfan.
Bg
> > How does one know what pleases them until they've learned or tried
> > everything?
>
> Ridiculous: Pleasure doesn't need any intellectual or experiential context.
>
> How do you know if a cookie pleases you, until you've tried all forms
> of pastry?
>
> Same thing.
> --
> -- Gerry
If all we are just listeners and fans of the music then absolutely,
but for those in the workplace or wanting to be in the workplace then
we should be aware of more than just what we like.(Music Makers Jazz
et al.
Bg
Gerry
> On Feb 6, 9:28 pm, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2011-02-06 11:18:26 -0800, Bg said:
>>
>>>> I think young jazzer guitarists should get wrapped up in whatever
>>>> pleases them and try to do something new with what ever that is.
>>
>>> How does one know what pleases them until they've learned or tried
>>> everything?
>>
>> Ridiculous: Pleasure doesn't need any intellectual or experiential context.
>>
>> How do you know if a cookie pleases you, until you've tried all forms
>> of pastry?
>>
>> Same thing.
>
> If that were true, there would be lots of 8-year-olds around listening
> to Charlie Parker, Wes Montgomery, McCoy Tyner etc. Appreciating fine
> art is a much more intellectually involved process than eating
> cookies. There are levels of sophistication/maturity in one's
> perception of art.
I don't know what you're talking about.
--
-- Gerry
Gerry
>>> How does one know what pleases them until they've learned or tried
>>> everything?
>>
>> Ridiculous: Pleasure doesn't need any intellectual or experiential context.
>>
>> How do you know if a cookie pleases you, until you've tried all forms
>> of pastry?
>>
>> Same thing.
>
> If all we are just listeners and fans of the music then absolutely,
> but for those in the workplace or wanting to be in the workplace then
> we should be aware of more than just what we like.(Music Makers Jazz
> et al.
Learning students aren't in the workplace, that's just the point.
--
-- Gerry
nqbqbep
I'm just replying to your "Pleasure doesn't need any intellectual or
experiential context" thesis.
Gerry
>>>>>> I think young jazzer guitarists should get wrapped up in whatever
>>>>>> pleases them and try to do something new with what ever that is.
>>
>>>>> How does one know what pleases them until they've learned or tried
>>>>> everything?
>>
>>>> Ridiculous: Pleasure doesn't need any intellectual or experiential
>>>> context. How do you know if a cookie pleases you, until you've tried
>>>> all form of pastry?
>>
>>> If that were true, there would be lots of 8-year-olds around listening
>>> to Charlie Parker, Wes Montgomery, McCoy Tyner etc. Appreciating fine
>>> art is a much more intellectually involved process than eating
>>> cookies. There are levels of sophistication/maturity in one's
>>> perception of art.
>
> I'm just replying to your "Pleasure doesn't need any intellectual or
> experiential context" thesis.
Ah, I think I see where you've gotten turned aground. Your perspetive
is that young jazzers would consider the most immediate reward in
Johnny Smith, or Eddie Lang. Rather than in fast exciting music.
Following the "cookie" metaphor, you've equated cookie with "simple"
(Lang) versus complex and sophisticated (bop).
I see bop as newer, louder, faster, more exciting music and the flash
draws their attention over older, slower and less exciting musics.
I think the first thing that draws people's attention and interest, in
my thinking, is immediacy and directness, as I've indicated. This, as
opposed to more refined, historically noteworthy artifacts.
In any case, I was responding to the "how does one know what pleases
them until they've learned everything", which I think makes no sense at
all. Children don't have to read Prouse and Joyce to enjoy the funny
papers.
We like what we like without any reference to historical context
whatever. Certainly having that historical context can make enjoyment
more profound. There are a lot of people listening to rock that will
never ever know it's roots.
--
-- Gerry
Tom Walls
>>
>> Anne Elk was really something ...
> I had to google that one. I suspect pmfan57 got it immediately...
>
>
>
Geez, I think I just looked up John Cleese's skirt.
John K
This sounds like shades of Mick Goodrick. He recommends that
guitarists spend lots of time exploring the modes of the major scale,
first, on one string two strings and across the fretboard.
For all the criticisms people have of the scale chord teachings ala
Berklee, it has been my experience that if you spend lots of time with
a mode, varying intervals and leaps, your ear gravitates toward
melodic chord tones without having to think that way.
After all, the classical composers are using scales to create
melodies.
I think that there is some validity to spending time on the major
scale but at every phase of history, the younger musicians in
Jazz ,have come up with new takes on things. In other words, the young
whippersnappers shouldn't stay on the major scales for years.....Jazz
is about new things, to me, blending with the old.
I, sometimes, don't hear a deeper sense of tradition in younger
players but that's,also, valid, according to taste. Some have spent,
to my ears, lots of time learning the tradition.
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Valid points.
The thing is, that no stone should go unturned in the first place. All
the other places are inversions of the first place. Of course, there
are parallel places in addition. Such places span from closely related
to distantly related. In essence, all is related.
Problems occur concerning discipline and balance. Those items are more
important than the data, just like Einstein's dictum that,
"Imagination is more important than Knowledge."
Each man (woman) has his own perception on how things should be
studied; the order and assimilation's, but 'no two snowflakes are
alike'. *Balance* is almost never factored in. For example, practicing
D dorian quartals on string sets (transposing them to the remaining 11
dorians; "Dorians" were originally a tribe form early Greece, by the
way and they were quite creative in architecture) can be a tedious
undertaking within stagnant harmony. And it is merely your Cmajor
scale standing on D. Some of the quartals will contain the tritone
(from the dead thread: F with B and B wih F). This factor will quickly
reveal that the B, D dorian's characteristic tone (some prefer
"pitch") is a particle that will undoubtedly flirt with G Mixolydian
territory. If practicing triadically, all voicings do not have to be
quartal; can and should mix quartal with tertians. The learner must be
careful not to succumb to the gravitational pull of cadencing back to
C, if not desired. Yet aside from that, we can practice every little
which-a-way of dorian triads, 4 noters, ad infinitum. The idea is to
avoid spending six months on that without one hint of tonicization,
cadencing and above all: TUNE applications.
Concerning major 'scaledom', I recommend learners to practice C major
(or any given Sunday of a major) in plural scale fashion. That is
along with it's related major scales (related via the tonic, each new
scale's root note according to how resonance occurs via the Overtone
Series output) in plural fashion. In other words, closely related
major scales will give you VII 'M'ajor, V M, IX (II) M, VI M and III
M. Practice any one or all of them from the point of view of C Major
scale. For example C and D plural: C D E F G A B C# D E F# G A B C#
D// Or a zillion yieldings there of. Can lesson the load: C D E F# G A
B C#...Go back to C now with BMajor: C D E F plus G# A# B C# etc. Each
one of these majors has it's major scale a tritone away (yea baby) and
this is yet another eye-opener offering instant familiarities and an
additional perspective concerning all 12 tones being related.
In addition, for anyone seeking yet another viewpoint in learning how
to derive and negotiate various approach notes in relation to your
starting major scale of choice (in this case C major), the "new" note
yield coming from the related majors shows a whole other perspective
as applied as approach notes for your dealings in C Major. Why?
Because, from this point of view that formula I had written above,
reveals C major affinity derived from the output of the Overtone
Series. This is *only one* approach to be used with al the other
approaches out there. yet, it may shed some more light on th evalue of
the major scale.
Sure, we can spend a lifetime on major scale land, or any scale/mode
land. Balance is the key factor.
-TD
Joey Goldstein
> This sounds like shades of Mick Goodrick. He recommends that
> guitarists spend lots of time exploring the modes of the major scale,
> first, on one string two strings and across the fretboard.
> For all the criticisms people have of the scale chord teachings ala
> Berklee, it has been my experience that if you spend lots of time with
> a mode, varying intervals and leaps, your ear gravitates toward
> melodic chord tones without having to think that way.
Sure. But the inverse of that is also true, perhaps even more so.
I.e. If you spend a lot of time working only with chord-tones, the ear
gravitates towards the "melodic" scale tones without having to think
that way.
Ultimately, the important thing is to spend lots of time working with
these building blocks of music and learning to hear them at the same
time you're learning to play them.
In the end, every musician comes to the realization that chords and
scales are just two sides of the same thing.
An extended chord is essentially a scale.
Any scale can be arranged to form an extended chord or chords.
> After all, the classical composers are using scales to create
> melodies.
>
> I think that there is some validity to spending time on the major
> scale
I don't think anybody involved in jazz ed is against learning the major
and minor scales in as much detail as possible.
The arguments arise when we try to apply the notion of naming and
enumerating the intervals of a scale from the root of a chord.
I.e. It's not scales that are on trial these days in the jazz-ed
community, it's the idea of chord-scales (as taught at places like
Berklee) that is on trial.
> but at every phase of history, the younger musicians in
> Jazz , have come up with new takes on things.
Sure.
But that's another topic entirely.
> In other words, the young
> whippersnappers shouldn't stay on the major scales for years.....Jazz
> is about new things, to me, blending with the old.
IMO Young musicians have an *obligation* to come up with new things that
are valid.
But that's impossible without at least some understanding of and some
competency with what came before.
At the very least, anybody calling themselves a jazz musician has to
have learned how to play by ear, and the only way to do that is to spend
lots of time with recordings and figuring out how to play what other
people have already played.
I.e. A jazz musician needs to be able to reproduce music that he hears
other people playing.
This isn't about stealing the ideas of other people. It's about
developing the ability to play by ear.
And players already established within the jazz community simply won't
play with you unless you are capable of demonstrating your ability to
play the tunes that they are playing, whether you're reading from a lead
sheet or playing by ear.
So, being able to reproduce what other people have written or have
played is just the sine qua non for participating in this particular art.
Coming up with something new that's never been done before is relatively
easy.
But coming up with something new that is *valid* is only accomplished by
a very few very dedicated geniuses in every generation, and that takes
lots of study as well as talent.
> I, sometimes, don't hear a deeper sense of tradition in younger
> players but that's,also, valid, according to taste. Some have spent,
> to my ears, lots of time learning the tradition.
The jazz tradition, at this point in time, is pretty deep.
Someone who spends all their time studying every aspect and every era of
the tradition and every notable player within the tradition will have a
hard time finding the time to study how to sound like themselves in this
lifetime.
But on the other hand...
Someone who is totally or almost totally ignorant of the tradition will
have an even harder time learning how to make even intermediate level
jazz music.
It is, as are all things in music, a matter of balance.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
Bg
> I, sometimes, don't hear a deeper sense of tradition in younger
> players but that's,also, valid, according to taste. Some have spent,
>
> - Show quoted text -
The Marsalis boys for sure.
Bg
TD
I prefer the chicken over the veal.
-TD
John K
I prefer Satchmo to someone pretending they are Satchmo, too.
The tradition is a point of reference for depth but it is very deep so
I would agree some balance is necessary.....that is time put into
learning the tradition before going on.