"Crossover" classical guitar?

[RichL]

It's been a coupla years since I've posted here, though I'm known to lurk
now and then.

I've got this Framus classical guitar that I've had since the 70s. It's
seen much better days, and it's starting to wear out its welcome. But the
thing I like about the Framus is that the neck is considerably narrower than
typical classical guitar necks. I'd like to get something new with a
similar neck. A bit of Googledigging led me to so called "crossover"
guitars, which seem to fit my bill. Some of these have radiused fretboards,
which appeal to me as well since my left hand tends to cramp up playing
barre chords on a completely flat board.

I've sort of latched in on some of Cordoba's offerings. But I'm wondering
if anyone has any experience with these or with similar guitars by other
makers. I'm looking for something reasonably priced (meaning well under
$1K) as classical isn't my main thing; I'm just looking to add something to
the herd that's lacking at present. Any advice/recommendations will be
appreciated.

Thanks!

[Steve Freides]

I can't answer your question directly, but I will give a thumbs-up for
Cordoba guitars. I have a few students who have them, very inexpensive,
and very nicely made and nice sounding for the money. I have experience
with their 3/4 and 7/8 sized classical guitars. And that's another
thing you might consider, just a smaller but otherwise "normal"
classical guitar if you don't need a cutaway. The 7/8 size feels normal
enough to me, much like a parlor acoustic steel-string guitar that way.

-S-

[Tony Done]

I tried one of those Cordoba crossovers - their "Fusion"series and came
very close to buying it. - I still would in the right (financial!)
circumstances ie a trade-in, maybe lam mahogany b&s. I can't recall the
model, but it was cutaway and solid cedar top. - I would urge you to get
cedar over spruce in these heavily built mid-price type, as popularised
by Takamine. IMO they perform better with nylon strings or a light touch
with steel strings. The only minus was that the neck angle seemed a bit
low, but maybe it was OK by classical standards. It was much, much
better tonally than a comparable Yairi costing twice as much

Another make to look at is Katoh. The local classical teacher is
recommending them to his students, and my mate has had a few in.
Fantastic tone in the solid (cedar) top one I tried, as good as any
classical I can remember playing at any price, and very good tone even
in the all-laminate cheapo. The fit and finish weren't as classy as some
other makes, but it looks to me as if they have spent on function rather
than form - no thick, gloopy poly for example. I don't know if they do
crossover versions, but their standard neck is a good low profile.

--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/

[hank alrich]

Many examples from a different angle here:

http://www.godinguitars.com/godinmultnylonseriesp.htm


For example:

http://www.godinguitars.com/godinmultencorep.htm


--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[dsi1]

There's lots of crossover guitars around and lots of guitars priced way
under $1000. A pretty good indicator of a guitar of the type you seek
will be a cutaway on the body. Your best bet is to pick a guitar with a
sound you like and forget about recommendations. In the end, you're
gonna have to play and listen to pick a guitar. My favorite guitar cost
me $69 - new.

[RichL]

"Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com> wrote in message
news:mh5n1s$vpc$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

Thanks, Steve. I should have mentioned the cutaway as a feature that I'd
like; also, one of the Cordoba models I was looking at (online) had the neck
joining the body at the 14th fret, which is another feature I'd like. Good
to see another endorsement of Cordoba.

[RichL]

"Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:mh6e81$a4$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

Thanks, Tony! I'm not familiar at all with Katoh; I'll give them a look if
I can find them being sold in this area.

The Cordoba Fusion series guitars are the ones I've been looking at.

[RichL]

"hank alrich" <walk...@nv.net> wrote in message
news:1m38rf7.10kf6zxsx499uN%walk...@nv.net...

Thanks Hank! I hadn't even considered Godin, although I have a Seagull
guitar (Godin is their parent company) that I like very much. The Seagull I
have has a similar pickup arrangement, with the under-saddle piezo and a
small soundhole mic with a preamp that allows you to blend the two and
control their relative phase. Looks like the Godin electronics has even
more flexibility. The problem will be finding one in these parts to test
drive.

[RichL]

"dsi1" <ds...@eternal-september.invalid> wrote in message
news:mh719f$4g6$1...@dont-email.me...

Yep, I almost invariably try before I buy, which presents a bit of a dilemma
in terms of what folks are recommending.

There's a used instrument store nearby where I've bought at least half my
musical gear. My main thing is electric guitars and amps, and this store
has a fantastic selection for those. For acoustic instruments, not so much,
although I did manage to pick up a Fender acoustic 12-string there that I
play regularly. I'll just have to keep an eye out to see what comes through
there (their web site is regularly updated).

Guitar Center will be my last resort ;-)

[Steve Freides]

You know the whole "spruce versus cedar" thing is, well, a thing in the
classical guitar world. I happen to agree with you in preferring the
sound of a cedar-topped classical guitar, but there is no denying, at
least to me, that the overall volume and projection they have is less.
I find it useful to consider a spruce-topped classical guitar as a step
in the direction of a steel-string acoustic guitar - that's not a bad
thing to many people, but since I play classical mostly for my own
enjoyment and in small venues and/or amplified when I do, I prefer
cedar. Typically I hear spruce-topped classicals described as "really
projects well," "sounds really clear," and the like, while the cedar
ones get described with adjectives like "rich" and "sweet."

And then again one could argue with my choice of amplified cedar where
perhaps unamplfied spruce would do the job, and so it goes, and so it
goes.

-S-

[Tony Done]

Yeah, I should certainly have suggested "try cedar" rather than "buy
cedar". Whole volumes have been written about the differences between
cedar and spruce. I think it is historically interesting that, AFAIK,
the use of cedar tops on classicals was an American idea that was
adopted quite quickly in Spain, where you would expect a conservative
approach. - It clearly has something going for it. As I noted, I think
that in those low-to-mid price ranges it has more chance of not being a
clunker than spruce. - My impression is that they often project better
in those lower price ranges. Put another way, I have tried more
inexpensive cedar-topped classicals I like that spruce-topped ones. Even
in steel strings, I have often preferred it for fingerpicking in those
same price ranges, where you aren't looking for a lot of headroom.
Takamine discovered the "cedar + heavy body biuld" formula long ago, and
it has served them well. Once you get into high priced classicals and
Taylor-type steel strings, I think that then the greater projection
capabilities and powerful near-metallic tones of spruce become more evident.

[RichL]

"Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote in message

news:mh934l$fsv$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

The Framus classical I have has a cedar top. One thing I realized after
decades of use (and abuse) is that cedar is much more delicate physically
than spruce. I sometimes play it with a pick, and as a result it's almost
completely worn away in the area below the strings, to the degree that it
would almost give Willie Nelson's Trigger a run for its money.

I'm really leaning toward spruce this time.

[RichL]

"RichL" <rple...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cO-dne0a-5cj06XI...@supernews.com...

<http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u267/rpleavitt/Framusclassical.jpg>

[dsi1]

Jah, dat some nice toys dere! I lent my 0-18 to a Samoan kid and he went
batshit crazy on that guitar. By the time I got it back, it had
scratches through the finish and the wood! That was way back in 69. If
you lend your guitar to a Samoan kid, make sure he plays jazz or
classical and not that crazy music from his island home.

[Tony Done]

Oh, I wouldn't worry if it's a Framus, the cedar is probably laminated
with a sheet of titanium of the like. :)

I was thinking fingerpicking, not flatpicking, and I can see that spruce
would be the way to go for the latter - you can use the extra headroom.

[Steven Bornfeld]

On 4/22/2015 9:45 PM, RichL wrote:
>
> The Framus classical I have has a cedar top. One thing I realized after
> decades of use (and abuse) is that cedar is much more delicate
> physically than spruce. I sometimes play it with a pick, and as a
> result it's almost completely worn away in the area below the strings,
> to the degree that it would almost give Willie Nelson's Trigger a run
> for its money.
>
> I'm really leaning toward spruce this time.

I know that traditionally, cedar is considered softer than spruce. But
I found this table comparing "Janka hardness" there is considerable
overlap between cedar and spruce for hardness. Engelman is the softest
spruce at 1.7; western red and Atlantic white cedar are rated at 1.6;
however port orford cedar is rated 3.2. I have no idea if Port Orford
is ever used as a tonewood, though.

http://sizes.com/units/janka.htm

Steve

[gtr]

That is one narrow-waisted classical...!

[RichL]

"gtr" <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote in message news:2015042312421634140-xxx@yyyzzz...

Indeed it is. As I said, I got it in the 70s but I bought it used, so I
have no idea how old it is. I suppose I could track down its vintage using
the serial number, but it basically was a cheapo guitar from the outset,
Framus not being known for quality, although there is John Lennon's Framus
Hootenanny 12-string ("You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" etc.).

[RichL]

"Steven Bornfeld" <dentalt...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:mhbdat$2fp$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

Steve, you may find this of interest. They don't mention hardness as a
factor; the article concentrates mainly on tone (and various people's
perception of it). Considering the way I've used classical guitar in the
past, my best bet is probably to slap some sort of pickguard on whatever I
wind up buying (Port Orford is mentioned as a tonewood, by the way):

http://www.thisisclassicalguitar.com/cedar-vs-spruce-tops-classical-guitar/

[RichL]

"Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote in message

news:mh9v2h$6tk$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

One would think; however, it's actually a solid top, not laminated. There
are enough dings and worn spots where lamination would show up visibly.

>
> I was thinking fingerpicking, not flatpicking, and I can see that spruce
> would be the way to go for the latter - you can use the extra headroom.

I've never actually held a spruce-topped classical guitar in my hands. I'll
definitely audition a few of each before I decide. But that Framus of mine
is still playable and sounds pretty decent (I've used it on a few
recordings), so I'll still have it to fall back on if I get a new one with a
spruce top. I tend to use a mix of fingerpicking and flatpicking.

[gtr]

I LOVES me a parlor-sized guitar. Just as a point of curiousity (since
I'm obviously not going to pursue one), is the projection any good?

[RichL]

"gtr" <x...@yyy.zzz> wrote in message news:2015042417470273947-xxx@yyyzzz...

My Framus? Not very good at all. I use it mainly for recording, where it's
fine. But I've been in several situations where I'm playing along with a
couple of steel-string players, and I'm completely drowned out.

[dsi1]

It depends who's making the guitar. I used to take lessons at the Guitar
and Lute Workshop in Honolulu and one of the builders was showing a
baroque guitar that he just finished. We was amazed at how much sound it
put out. It was quite a punchy - sort of like a reso-guitar. It was a
gas to play due to it's short scale. Not much sustain but that was
appropriate for the material that you'd play on one of these things -
lute music.

[Steven Bornfeld]

On 4/23/2015 10:36 PM, RichL wrote:
>
> Steve, you may find this of interest. They don't mention hardness as a
> factor; the article concentrates mainly on tone (and various people's
> perception of it). Considering the way I've used classical guitar in
> the past, my best bet is probably to slap some sort of pickguard on
> whatever I wind up buying (Port Orford is mentioned as a tonewood, by
> the way):
>
> http://www.thisisclassicalguitar.com/cedar-vs-spruce-tops-classical-guitar/

Ha! Listening to guitarists (and to a lesser extent luthiers) talk
about tone woods and their subjective experience of each sounds a lot
like wine talk. Some of these qualities SEEM as if they should be
objective--loudness, for example. But of course loudness interacts with
perception, so just placing a decibel meter at various distances, in
various rooms, halls etc. might not really solve one's questions. How
would one distinguish loudness from "projection", and does this have
some kind of objective measurement?
Thanks for posting--good article. And good luck with your decision.

Steve

[hank alrich]

One could run tests similar to those used to verify a loudspeaker's
frequency response, dispersion pattern, and so forth, subject to the
control limits of the player.

[RichL]

"Steven Bornfeld" <dentalt...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:mhj6ud$leu$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

Thanks, Steve! This decision won't come quickly, but I appreciate your and
everyone else's thoughts on the subject.

You're right about the "wine talk" comments. Seems like a lot of folks have
definite opinions on the subject, little of which appears to be based on any
sort of objective reality. And what the heck is "projection", anyway? Once
you get into the "far field" of the sound, everything's gonna fall off in
volume according to an inverse square law anyway (absent reflections from
walls etc.).

[RichL]

"hank alrich" <walk...@nv.net> wrote in message

news:1m3hng2.gpg54weudxxgN%walk...@nv.net...

In principle, yeah. The complication of course is that, unlike a
loudspeaker, in the case of a guitar technique comes into play. That's a
difficult variable to control for, even in a "sterile" room.

[hank alrich]

I agree, in principle. That said, truly high-end players are often
surprisngly consistent, and by averaging instances of string excitement
one might derive some useful data.

I think the main difficulty might be remaining sane in an anechoic
chamber long enough to get the work done.

[hank alrich]

Projection is the property I have most strongly come to understand by
playing pizzicato upright basses. I had one lovely instrument that
seemed not loud enough when standing beside or behind it, initially
leading one to pluck way too hard. Once I understood how effectively the
instrument projected I backed way off, had plenty of level in an
ensemble, and much improved tone.

Given equivalent total energy output over exactly the same bandwidth,
projection will come down to the inverse of dispersion.

[RichL]

"hank alrich" <walk...@nv.net> wrote in message

news:1m3htxf.1m59nipg75bnuN%walk...@nv.net...

My tinnitus rises well above the background in my music room, so I don't
think an anechoic chamber would be much of a challenge for me. Then again,
I'm far from a high-end player ;-)

[hank alrich]

Actually, tinnitus can become a sledgehammer in the head when in an
anechoic chamber. Very few people have been able to remain in one for
even half an hour.

Deprived of stimuli we get weird. I see this when city kids come to
visit where I live. It's very quiet in the mountains. Freaks 'em out at
first.

[RichL]

"hank alrich" <walk...@nv.net> wrote in message

news:1m3l3g5.daeb9ng5cq5iN%walk...@nv.net...

I've actually been in two, one for acoustics and one for RF, both at a gov't
lab where I used to work. Not for very long, though. I agree it (the
acoustic one) is pretty spooky in terms of sensory deprivation.

[Steve Daniels]

On Tue, 28 Apr 2015 10:23:46 -0500, against all advice, something
compelled walk...@nv.net (hank alrich), to say:

>Deprived of stimuli we get weird. I see this when city kids come to
>visit where I live. It's very quiet in the mountains. Freaks 'em out at
>first.

I had a friend visit from New York City. She couldn't sleep the first
night because it was too quiet.

[hank alrich]

When I get home I sleep so much better than I do here in Austin.

Obviously, there is music action here that ain't at home, but the city
never gets quiet, never gets dark, the water doesn't taste like water,
and the air is only sort of clean after a rainstorm.

But there is a lot of musical opportunity, and lots of tacos. Very good
tacos.

[Steve Freides]

I was the opposite. We lived in the city for 11 years, and the first
thing I'd do when we'd go back to visit family and friends in PA was
sleep for 24 hours - I don't think I ever slept well in NYC.

-S-

[Tom from Texas]

An engineer could build a robot player to remove variance in playing from test to test.

Tom (stand in robotic player) from Texas