Books by Pandit Vinayak Narayan Patwardhan

[Jatin Pandya]

Can somene tell me if six part series of books entitled "Raag Vigyan" is
still available? These books were written by Pandit Vinayak Narayan
Patwardhan and published by a Pune publisher.

I will appreciate if anyone can throw any light on availability or
publisher.

Thanks.

Jatin
=====================

[Lakshman Ragde]

There used to be a Vishnu Digambar smarak samiti at 495 Shanwar Peth. Pune.
I don't know if this institution still exists. It is worth a try.
Otherwise you can also try Sangeet, Hatras. Uttar Pradesh. These people
publish Music Books.

[Jatin Pandya]

Thanks, I found their web-site: www.gandharvapune.com.

I will check out there.

Jatin
=================

"Lakshman Ragde" <sha...@gate-way.net> wrote in message
news:3C681D23...@gate-way.net...

[imppio]

In fact I think, now there is a 7th Volume. I found the books in Pune 2
years back.

cheers,
imppio

"Jatin Pandya" <jat...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:10134498...@hqnntp01.autodesk.com...

[Warren Senders]

>> Can somene tell me if six part series of books entitled "Raag Vigyan"
>is
>> still available? These books were written by Pandit Vinayak Narayan
>> Patwardhan and published by a Pune publisher.

They've gotta be available. They're pretty essential
texts for pedagogues in this music, although I personally
find Patwardhan's rhythmic notation exceedingly
confusing, and there are quite a few typographical
errors in the song texts, which can be disorienting.
I got my set about 15 years ago, but the last time
I was in Pune they were on sale at Mehendale's in
Appa Balwant Chowk.

And that is the ONLY reason I would go to Appa Balwant
Chowk...some of the worst city traffic I've ever experienced!

WS

[Surajit A. Bose]

In article <20020211163220...@mb-mk.aol.com>,
war...@aol.comqwerty (Warren Senders) wrote:

> texts for pedagogues in this music, although I personally
> find Patwardhan's rhythmic notation exceedingly
> confusing,

I wonder whether notation schema are like languages? You learn one
first, and are never quite as comfortable with the others? I sight-read
Bhatkhande-lipi pretty easily, but when I encounter Paluskar-lipi (as in
Patwardhan's books), I keep having to translate it into Bhatkhande-lipi,
usually with pencil and paper, but sometimes, if I kinda-sorta have
heard the cheez already, in my head. But one of my music teachers, Mr
Patnaik at IIT Bombay, wrote naturally and fluently in Paluskar-lipi....

According to Deodhar, the reason for Paluskar's notation schema is that
it saves paper....I thought that was an interesting reason....I also
found it interesting that Deodhar, despite being a student of
Paluskar's, uses Bhatkhande-lipi in his own books....

-s

[Warren Senders]

>I wonder whether notation schema are like languages? You learn one
>first, and are never quite as comfortable with the others? I sight-read
>Bhatkhande-lipi pretty easily, but when I encounter Paluskar-lipi (as in
>Patwardhan's books), I keep having to translate it into Bhatkhande-lipi,
>usually with pencil and paper, but sometimes, if I kinda-sorta have
>heard the cheez already, in my head.

Interesting thoughts. As a gringo aspirant in the 70s,
I began by using Romanized Bhatkhande notation. Once
I learned Devanagari, I found that Roman was phonetically
misleading -- it sent the wrong signals along the eye-mind-
mouth channel, resulting in mispronunciations, particularly
of the "dha" syllable. Writing my notes in nagari ensures
that the roman-to-nagari ambiguity doesn't arise.

My wife, brought up in India, finds Roman easier to use
than Devanagari (though not much); for her the Roman
"D" just stands for a generic voiced dental aspirate
in that context.

I like the Paluskar/Patwardhan notation for Tivra Ma;
the Bhatkhande diagonal stroke above the note is
visually conflicting with upper-register marks. So I
have adopted this convention; rhythms and komalizations
are Bhatkhandic, but tivrations (and you've gotta know
I went through a bit of headscratching to arrive at that
neologism) are Paluskarian.

We have notes from our lessons in which Devanagari and
Roman alternate freely and randomly; it is interesting to
observe that many of the musicians who've consulted our
notes not only read the sargams fluently, but *do not
notice* that two scripts are macaronically interpenetrative.
It's even more interesting when song texts are in Devanagari,
and subscript sargams are in Roman or the orthographic mix
described above.

>According to Deodhar, the reason for Paluskar's notation schema is that
>it saves paper....I thought that was an interesting reason....I also
>found it interesting that Deodhar, despite being a student of
>Paluskar's, uses Bhatkhande-lipi in his own books....

I wonder why it saves paper? That doesn't make a lot
of sense to me.

Ah well, I've gotta run.

Warren

[vimal aga]

warren:

there are a total of 8 vols, the last being a slim vol of just music
theory that seems to be hastily put together by his son madhusudan.
the 8th vol has a total of 200 raags w/ a brief note on theory,
aaroh-avaroh swaroop and chalan. my old set was tattered and torn, and
i bought the new set 2 years ago in pune.

i agree w/ warren that, for those who have cut their teeth on the
bhatkhande system of notation, patvardhan's system is confusing. typos
abound in most books containing notations of hcm bandishes; in my
mind, that is a given and i've learnt to overlook typos. the
collection of bandishes is outstanding, nevertheless. meanwhile, while
we are on the subject, i find manikbuwa thakurdas' method of notation
even more confusing, since it is essentially a reverse of
bhatkhande's, w/ the swars on the second line and the bols on the
first line. is that the bhaskarbuwa bakhale school of notation?

vimal.

[Surajit A. Bose]

In article <20020211202844...@mb-dd.aol.com>,
war...@aol.comqwerty (Warren Senders) wrote:

> I like the Paluskar/Patwardhan notation for Tivra Ma;
> the Bhatkhande diagonal stroke above the note is
> visually conflicting with upper-register marks. So I
> have adopted this convention; rhythms and komalizations
> are Bhatkhandic, but tivrations (and you've gotta know
> I went through a bit of headscratching to arrive at that
> neologism) are Paluskarian.

Are you sure about that last adjective? I always assumed the correct
form was "Paluscious."

I'll dig up the saving-paper quote if I can, and I'll post it tomorrer.

-s

[Surajit A. Bose]

In article <sbose-B8DC8D....@news.fu-berlin.de>,

"Surajit A. Bose" <sb...@saintmarys.edu> wrote:

> In article <20020211163220...@mb-mk.aol.com>,
> war...@aol.comqwerty (Warren Senders) wrote:
>
> > texts for pedagogues in this music, although I personally
> > find Patwardhan's rhythmic notation exceedingly
> > confusing,
>
> I wonder whether notation schema are like languages?

Correction: the word should be "schemata", not "schema".

-s

[Ashok]

In article <sbose-B8DC8D....@news.fu-berlin.de>, sb...@saintmarys.edu says...

>
>I wonder whether notation schema are like languages?

>-s

Schema are?

Ashok

[Jatin]

> > texts for pedagogues in this music, although I personally
> > find Patwardhan's rhythmic notation exceedingly
> > confusing,
>
> I wonder whether notation schema are like languages? You learn one
> first, and are never quite as comfortable with the others? I sight-read
> Bhatkhande-lipi pretty easily, but when I encounter Paluskar-lipi (as in
> Patwardhan's books), I keep having to translate it into Bhatkhande-lipi,

<---snip--->

Does one have to learn this 'language' of notation? I know that many people
read/write notations with ease, but I need to listen in order to be able to
play. Although useful, I find it (playing by ears) to be a constraint in
learning music as there's a lot of written music around that I can't
read/play.

Jatin
==============

[Surajit A. Bose]

Re: saving paper. O-kaaaaaaay! Hang on to yer britches, boyz'n'gals,
here goes. From B R Deodhar's "Raag Bodh", vol. 6, part 1, pp. 72-73,
January 1986 edition. Deodhar is describing Paluskar's attempt to modify
staff notation for Indian music:

pa.nDit paluskar jii kii swaralipi me.n isii ##staff notation## se
milatii\-julatii paddhati kaa avalaMban kiyaa gayaa thaa. jaisaa:

-----------------------------------------------------------
taar | PaDhaNi
-----------------------------------------------------------
madhya | SaReGama
-----------------------------------------------------------
ma.ndra | PaDhaNi
-----------------------------------------------------------

pa.nDit viShNu digaMbar jii ke vidyaarthiyo.nne unake rahate hue hii
sa.ngiit par kuchh pustake.n likhii thii. us samay unakaa dhyaan is or
khii.nchaa gayaa ki uparokt tiin rekhaao.n kii paddhati ke avalaMban se
chhapaaii ke liye kaaGaz kaa vyay bahut hogaa ataH yadi vah ek hii
pa.nkti me.n likhaa jaay to kaaGaz kii bachat hokar pustak kii qiimat
bhii kam ho sakegii. sabhii pramukh shiShyo.n ne pa.nDitajii kaa dhyaan
is or aakarShit kiyaa tab unho.ne bhii ##notation## ek pa.nkti me.n
likhane kii anuj~naa dii.

Translation (rather wooden, sorry): "In his notation, Pandit Paluskar
too depended on a schema similar to this [Western] staff notation. For
example: [the chart given above follows].

"Before his demise, Pandit Vishnu Digambar's pupils had written some
books on music. At that time, they realized that a dependence on this
three-line schema led to a high expenditure on paper for printing,
whereas if the same was written in just one line, then paper would be
used sparingly and the books too would be less expensive. All his senior
pupils drew Panditji's attention to this, and he too permitted notation
to be written in just one line."

Now do you believe me, Warren?

Presumably Deodhar was one of Paluskar's "senior pupils", which makes it
all the more interesting that his own books should rely on
Bhatkhande-lipi.

(As an aside, I bombed an exam when I cheerfully notated an entire
chhoTaa Kayaal, "taan\-to.Do.n sahit" no less, in Bhatkhande lipi. The
question specified Paluskar, but I was so accustomed to Bhatkhande that
I latched on to the "lipibaddha kiijiye" part and totally missed the
"paNDit paluskar kii paddhati ke anusaar" part until I got the results
and was shocked into reading the question paper more carefully. The
practicals were a mess, too--gosh, I fucked up the layakaarii in the
dhamaar so badly, fifteen years later I still cringe whenever Holi
approaches. Out of sheer embarrassment I fled India for the US shortly
thereafter. 8-)

-s

[Warren Senders]

>"Before his demise, Pandit Vishnu Digambar's pupils had written some
>books on music. At that time, they realized that a dependence on this
>three-line schema led to a high expenditure on paper for printing,
>whereas if the same was written in just one line, then paper would be
>used sparingly and the books too would be less expensive. All his senior
>pupils drew Panditji's attention to this, and he too permitted notation
>to be written in just one line."

Right, right, right. I've seen the three-line stuff and thought
it was extremely clumsy...and I knew that the Patwardhan
notation was an evolutionary variant of the Paluskar...but
I forgot how the Ur-Paluskar system worked. Thanks for
clearing that up.

>Now do you believe me, Warren?

I don't have time to go over the rest of the thread right now,
but I vaguely recall that you said Deodhar said that P-notation
was preferable to BH-notation because of paper-saving issues.
The quote you've presented seems to compare P(1)-notation
with P(2)-notation.

I always believed you, Surajit...I just wanted to know how/why.

>Presumably Deodhar was one of Paluskar's "senior pupils", which makes it
>all the more interesting that his own books should rely on
>Bhatkhande-lipi.

The impression I always got was that Deodhar was rather
junior in the shishya-parivar, although his intellectual gifts
were highly valued. He has made comments to this effect
in "Pillars;" I will post them if I can find the time.

Gotta go and pry pieces of wood off the walls.

WS

[Daniel Fuchs]

Warren Senders wrote:
>

> komalizations
> tivrations

Shouldn't that besomething like "tivrizations"...? Or am I missing
something?

Daniel

[Balaji A.S. Murthy]

There is apparently another, more practical reason for preferring Bhatkhande
style, according to my Guru (who incidently uses Paluskar paddhiti to notate).
According to him the Paluaskar notation is inadequate, e.g. you cannot notate
3 notes in a single beat. He mentioned some more, but I don't remember them,
some knowledgable nettors may be able to elaborate.

- Balaji

In article <sbose-AEFD1C....@news.fu-berlin.de>, sb...@saintmarys.edu says...

[Surajit A. Bose]

In article <20020212075827...@mb-mk.aol.com>,
war...@aol.comqwerty (Warren Senders) wrote:

> Right, right, right. I've seen the three-line stuff and thought
> it was extremely clumsy...

I was wondering whether books using that schema would still be around,
actually. Where did you come across them?

> I don't have time to go over the rest of the thread right now,
> but I vaguely recall that you said Deodhar said that P-notation
> was preferable to BH-notation because of paper-saving issues.

No, what I said was that "the reason for Paluskar's notation schema is
that it saves paper." But actually, even compared to Bhatkhande-lipi it
does save paper, so there....I mean, Bhatkhande-lipi does use three
lines to Paluskar's one.

> The quote you've presented seems to compare P(1)-notation
> with P(2)-notation.

Technically I suppose the old, modified staff notation three-line schema
ought to be called "Paluskar lipi" and the one-line with diacritics
schema "Paluskar-shiShya-lipi" and the modified solfa three-line schema
"Bhatkande lipi". But everybody calls the second "Paluskar lipi" and
cheerfully ignores the first, and as Bhatkhande says time and time
again, "prachaar" is what one has to look at 8-)

> The impression I always got was that Deodhar was rather
> junior in the shishya-parivar, although his intellectual gifts
> were highly valued. He has made comments to this effect
> in "Pillars;" I will post them if I can find the time.

Well, "senior pupil" is a bad translation. The word is "pramukh", which
actually means "chief" or "leading", which means Deodhar would qualify,
no? I just thought "chief pupil" sounded silly.

Yup, Deodhar does have the bit in "Pillars" where he talks about how
Paluskar chose him over senior pupils for the Giovanni Scrinzi
scholarship. It's just fascinating to see how music pedagogy has changed
over the course of a few decades.....

Jatin asks:

> Does one have to learn this 'language' of notation? I know that many people
> read/write notations with ease, but I need to listen in order to be able to
> play. Although useful, I find it (playing by ears) to be a constraint in
> learning music as there's a lot of written music around that I can't
> read/play.

Deodhar, elsewhere in "Pillars", talks extensively about the pros and
cons of notation. IIRC it's in his essay on Sinde Khan. If you like I'll
post that portion on RMIC, but the book should be readily available--I
bought it in Chicago....

Balaji writes:

> There is apparently another, more practical reason for preferring Bhatkhande
> style, according to my Guru (who incidently uses Paluskar paddhiti to notate).
> According to him the Paluaskar notation is inadequate, e.g. you cannot notate
> 3 notes in a single beat. He mentioned some more, but I don't remember them,
> some knowledgable nettors may be able to elaborate.

Yes, you can't. For me, though, the most frustrating part of
Paluskar-lipi is not its technical limitations, but its representation
of taal. In Bhatkhande-lipi, it is very easy to figure out in a single
glance what the relationship of the text to the taal is--what the
overall rhythmic shape of the bandish is. In Paluskar-lipi, this has to
be derived by searching out the l'lle diacritics scrunched and then
reconstructing the whole thing in one's head. Well, that's what it is
for me.....maybe those who "think" in Paluskar-lipi, or those gifted
with a good sense of rhythm, don't need the very clear demarcations of
taal-khaNDs that Bhatkhande-lipi so helpfully provides.

Just curious, Balaji, if your guru thinks Bhatkhande-lipi is better, why
does he use Paluskar-lipi?

-s

[Warren Senders]

>> komalizations
>> tivrations
>
>Shouldn't that besomething like "tivrizations"...? Or am I missing
>something?

I tried "tivrazations" and it just didn't have the right
klang. But your mileage may vary.

WS

[mit...@gmail.com]

Namaste,
These books are now available in new form called 'Sangeet Raag Vidnyan'which are written by Dr. Sudhatai Patwardhan who is daughter-in-law of Pt. Vinayakarao Patwardhan. Hope it helps.

Thanks and regards,

[mit...@gmail.com]

In Sudhataai's books, both the lipis are used. It might help. Some in Bhatkhande and some in Paluskar lipi.

[moni...@gmail.com]

Check https://www.swarganga.org/books.php

[Lakshman Ragde]

On Monday, February 11, 2002 at 12:51:20 PM UTC-5, Jatin Pandya wrote:

The book is advertized here:
http://www.rasik.com/cgi_bin/display_book.cgi?bookId=b4524&lang=marathi

[asvi...@gmail.com]

[asvi...@gmail.com]

On Monday, February 11, 2002 at 11:21:20 PM UTC+5:30, Jatin Pandya wrote:

> =============contact ncpa laibrry mum

[devkuma...@gmail.com]

On Monday, February 11, 2002 at 11:21:20 PM UTC+5:30, Jatin Pandya wrote:

[devkuma...@gmail.com]

On Monday, February 11, 2002 at 11:21:20 PM UTC+5:30, Jatin Pandya wrote:

[devkuma...@gmail.com]

pandya sir,I have a copy of the book Part 3.I think I purchased other parts also .all form Sangeet Karyalaya,Hathras by post during those times.I have lost the other parts.The address of publisher:Madhusudan Patwardhan,495 Shaniwar Peth,Pune 411030,Pune.411030.If any portion of book you want then call me /mail me so I may send you some scanned pages.
In the meanwhile if are able to locate the publisher please let me know.
Dev Kumar mohanty
N 2/165 IRC Village,Bhubaneswar Odisha 751015.
Mob:8763435481

[mitp...@gmail.com]

Namaste, You can get Sangeet Raag Vidnyan Parts 1 to 5 by Dr. SUDHA PATWARDHAN, who is disciple and daughter in law of Pt. VINAYAKBUVA PATWARDHAN.

[Lakshman Ragde]

I am interested. Please contact me: luzc...@gmail.com Thanks.

[gora.b...@gmail.com]

mere ko raag vigyan pustkh chyatook chahiye kya aap uplabdh karwa sakte hai ph 9569696548

[ptambr...@gmail.com]

I don’t know how to read devanagari script. I need to write down all of my notes and notations in English and then memorize. This is how my guru does it for all of her students. Not one student, unless you are an adult learning hindustani music and you grew up in India know how to read the Devanagari script.

[ptambr...@gmail.com]

Hello. I am interested in purchasing these books by pandit vinayak patwardhan and I have a few questions. I grew up in the US and I am learning hindustani classical vocal for the past 7 years and I don’t know how to read the Devanagari script. My teacher/guru writes all of my hindustani music scripts and notations in English and I memorize them. are these books in Devanagari or Marathi script? I do have some friends who can help me with reading the books. Also, where are these books available for purchase? Mumbai? Pune? If some someone could please at least give a contact email or the name of a book house or book store or music college then that would be pointing me in the right direction.

Thank you very much

[luzchurch]

On Monday, February 11, 2002 at 12:51:20 PM UTC-5, Jatin Pandya wrote:
> Can somene tell me if six part series of books entitled "Raag Vigyan" is
> still available? These books were written by Pandit Vinayak Narayan
> Patwardhan and published by a Pune publisher.
>
> I will appreciate if anyone can throw any light on availability or
> publisher.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jatin
> =====================

One book in Hindi may be available here: https://www.rasik.com/cgi_bin/display_book.cgi?bookId=b4524&lang=marathi

[luzchurch]

On Monday, February 11, 2002 at 12:51:20 PM UTC-5, Jatin Pandya wrote:
> Can somene tell me if six part series of books entitled "Raag Vigyan" is
> still available? These books were written by Pandit Vinayak Narayan
> Patwardhan and published by a Pune publisher.
>
> I will appreciate if anyone can throw any light on availability or
> publisher.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jatin
> =====================

The complete st may be available here:https://www.indiamart.com/hv-mehendale-sons/books.html