hip hop ideology vs. the way I see it
quest19...@webtv.net
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Well, I have to agree on some points, and disagree on others. As far as
a 'hip-hop" book, ideology, and the like are concerned, I'd like you to
inform me where I might be able to purchase the book aforementioned. I'm
30, so I may have a different spin on the history of our great culture.
Women, not only in hip-hop--but society at large, have been from time
immemorial been thought of as scandous, and all other adjectives
imagined toward the downfall of a society or nation(read the book
entitled, "When God Was A Woman"). A very chauvinistic
and short-sighted view of more than half the populace, I might add.
Secondly, in a perfect world, music may be used to build nations and
such. We live in a capitalistic,
democratic society called America. I agree that the LOVE of money is the
root of all evil, however in the words of the street,"I gotta eat, and
take care of mine." To use a hip-hop quotatable, "when was the last time
that love bought your clothes, it's like that......."! Music is
universal, so to say whites or any other group says/does thus and so, is
really a contradiction in terms.
What would Naismith say today if he saw how blacks dominate a game he
invented not for the totality, but for a minority? Hip-hop, dominated be
blacks, should never feel threatened by white emcees, but white
corporate execs, legistlators, and the C. Delores Tuckers of the world.
In your defense, it is noble to think of our culture in such epic terms,
but that's not really true. We will have artist who sell out but the
music remains---and isn't that what really matters?
PEACE!
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Suave
In article <340770...@weiss.che.utexas.edu>, "k. orr"
<or...@weiss.che.utexas.edu> wrote:
:Suave wrote:
:
:> this is the main corruption of rap music: once artists found out that
:> selling records, the whole point of signing a major deal for major
:> distribution, was the way to make money and accomplish their realistic
:> goals in life, they started to make music for the people buying the
:> records. Regardless of how you look at it, since artists are looking to
:> sell units, they are recording music for white people, thus completely
:> defeating the original hip hop ideology.
:>
:> something I've been working on for a little while,
:>
:> peace,
:
:> Niko Suave
:
:I had 7 or 8 pages, of questions and comments
send 'em, I spent mad time on this, I'd like as much feedback as possible.
:but do you think artists have white people in their minds
:when they are making art?
i think rap artists are continuing to do what they feel white people will
buy. While white people may not be the main focus while they are rapping,
artists are continuing to record music they know whites will buy.
--
after eight years of my life of hip hop and thinking,
the world keeps spinning, so lately I've been drinking...
Niko Suave
Steve 'Flash' Juon
Hotblack Desiato wrote:
>
> Except if they're white, right 'Flash'?
Ahh get lost, you gangbangin wannabe death metal Lynard Skynard
trash talkin dick suckin Crip card carryin hillbilly half-ass
with a dumb italian mafioso name like Desiatio. Ain't nothin
hot or black about you.
--
Steve 'Flash' Juon --> dj.flash or hip...@pobox.com
Hip-Hop Lyrics Archive --> http://www.public.iastate.edu/~hip-hop/
Artifacts Homepage --> http://pobox.com/~hip-hop/music/artifacts.html
Suite 101's Hip-Hop --> http://www.suite101.com/topics/page.cfm/116
181.4 Hip-Hop Today --> http://www.181-4.com/
Author: RFD and CFV --> rec.music.hip-hop newsgroup
kari orr
On Sat, 30 Aug 1997 03:16:02 +0100, nd...@cornell.edu (Suave) wrote:
>:I had 7 or 8 pages, of questions and comments
>send 'em, I spent mad time on this, I'd like as much feedback as possible.
I might just do it again, cause i went point by point, refuting
each and every notion, you wrote, and then in the
finale of your argument, the topic changes.
that's why i had to address the most serious issue.
you go from, the percieved problems in hip hop
to the cause for these problems.
your claim is that hip hop sucks, because the artists
are selling their works for white money, and you emphasize
the color of the dollars.
>:but do you think artists have white people in their minds
>:when they are making art?
>
>i think rap artists are continuing to do what they feel white people will
>buy. While white people may not be the main focus while they are rapping,
>artists are continuing to record music they know whites will buy.
>Niko Suave
I actually feel the need to add a disclaimer for this post.
these are just my thoughts, and refutations to hypothesis
about why hip hop has allegedly gone awry.
I'm not using factual information,because none is readily
available to me. Most of my argument rests on what is common
knowledge, and should follow by reason.
that having been said.
let me introducer Master P.
Just recently has the Ice cream Man started to gain
national attention(he's been quoted by more east coast
mc's, than andre, or hiero)
But before he was known as the ice cream man, he was
ghetto gold. I borrow that term (ghetto gold) from an interview
with redman.
ghetto gold - it means selling a lot of units to a mostly black
clientele.
Master P was ghetto gold, well before his recent fame.
Master P was making money selling to a largely black audience.
the black audience knew P, because P really knows the black
audience. But not the black suburban audience, although many
a master p fan can be found, Master p promoted his materials
by way of club dj and on the street to his urban fans. (although
he has many rural fans also)
( i don't have the numbers, but it stands to reason whenyou aren't
exposed by mass media in terms of print or broadcast, your material
doesn't reach large audiences(which because of the population
of this country tend to be white) when the consumer isnt
aware of the product time and time again they will not buy it
in favor of something that they do know.)
Master P wasn't thinking about white folks when he made
his records. And from what i gather from this newsgroup
and the way that certain magazines have neglected or
criticized his work i would gather that he is one of
the things that you would consider has went wrong with hip hop
music.
in essence, you don't need white folks to make money,
you can make a lot of money just by surviving on the
black audience. Many popular music forms that have
large white followings, formally had large black followings.
let me put it on a different slant. the vast majority of black
people who listen to hip hop music, aren't jamming co flow
and latryx, they aren't dissecting flows or digging for breaks,
they are riding in their cars and dancing in clubs to the hip hop
that is most popular right now. Basically the same thing
white folks do to hip hop music right now.
I would further the argument in saying that, if it is popular
with black folks, eventually it will be marketed towards
white folks. This is evident in radio. something will be at
the top of the charts in the "urban" area, and the
people in the top 40 area will pick it up. Boyz 2 men is a good
example. as is that song "if i ever fall in love again" by shai.
incidentally, it's rare to see someone from top 40 crossover
into the urban charts, More often today, is promoting records
to both markets. the question is now, would a hall and oates
make it in black radio. I would be interested in seeing the history
of commercial rotation for black and white radio.
so an artist can make records with a black audience in mind
and then the record is marketed to white folks.
>i think rap artists are continuing to do what they feel white people will
>buy. While white people may not be the main focus while they are rapping,
>artists are continuing to record music they know whites will buy.
Rap artists, specifically the artists looking for commercial rotation
aren't creating art because they know they're white audience will
eat it up. they are creating for the black folks that are eating it
up, and the white folks come later. they're might be 3 white fans
for every 1 black fan, but without the black fans, the artists will
lose the white fans.
there are few black hip hop artists that are solely supported by
white fans. snoop, tupac, biggy, puffy, bone, all have huge
black audiences, maybe not platinum numbers, but at least gold.
so in essence, without the core black audience, the surrounding
white audiences wouldn't come.
this topic doesn't address groups that appeal largely to hispanic
audiences(mexican and puerto rican centered hip hop)
peace
k. orr
house of phat beats
k. orr
Steve 'Flash' Juon wrote:
>
> Kari, I'm going to summarize because this was a really long post
> and I'm still 500 behind from Labor Day:
>
> 1. If the flows are complex, it's meant for "whites" and "surbabans"
> and doesn't have that "ghetto gold" appeal that Master P does.
there are complex flows and concepts that don't make it
past the houston city limit, but get bumped on a regular
in the burbs with blades.
peep mic smokas by trey(III) and big mike
Take Tela or Mjg and really study their rhymes.
Outkast didn't come out of a vacuum.
these artists aren't necessairly thinking about white
folks diuring composition time.
> 2. The heads hate Master P because he makes music for black people.
i'm not sure what this means
> 3. People black or white want their hip-hop as "raw" and "ghetto"
> as possible, so creative beats like Latyrx are not gonna hit.
creative is relative, plenty of beat innovation happens
in the stereotypical playa raps. where do you think
all of this polyrhthymic beats come from Jungle.
not even, peep some miami bass, and it starts to get clear.
but latyx isn't promoted on the street the same way
mr.serv on is. solesides doesn't have product in every store
in the ghetto. they aren't trying to market towards the
ghetto denizens.
believe me, if you take over a commercial radio station
in la and in nyc heavily rotate cats like hiero and the lix
you will get fans yelling
"tash rules, north coast sucks"
> Point 1. Master P appeals to people who like simplicity and think they
> can relate to slanging dope and gangbanging; because that's almost all
> he ever raps about. I don't care if it sells to black people or white
> people (and we know it's selling to white idiots who think it's the
> latest wave of "TRU" gangsta shit) because the audience is the same.
> He went "ghetto gold", but so have much better artists. The Click
> went "ghetto gold". Lord Finesse and Brand Nubian were "ghetto gold".
> EPMD was most certainly "ghetto gold". These people are all much more
> talented than Master Piss.
do you personally relate to Chuck D, or do you just think you can?
P rhymes about what he knows, not everything that he knows,
but what he wants to rhyme about. many mc's don't rhyme about
what they had for lunch, because to them it's not interesting,
they would have nothing to say about it.
the peops that buy his records don't just buy for them
gangsta lyrics, people fail to see how tight his beats are.
and especially in context, where the aesthetics include
a tight low end, the misssing factor in many an east
coast or newsgroup approved record(not my words, those of masta ace)
I will be the first to tell you, Mf doom and co flow do not
hit well at all.
> Point 2. Nobody hates Master P for being a successful black entrepeneur.
no one does,
> What
> people hate isn't that his music is "by black people" and "for black
> people" - what they hate is his stupid corny ass slang (I'm rowdy,
> down to get bout it bout it)
as if lune tns were much better
stop jeffing?
slang is again hella subjective
like humble your heart to me, sounds odd on the net,
but down here it makes sense.
> that is so easy to imitate I wrote a
> duet between Master P and RZA and two hundred people on the internet
> wanted to know where to get the album.
so is it p that's stupid or is the 200 people?
>To me, that proves how pathetic Master P's rhymes are. Anybody could >do that simple shit.
> Simple is not bad, but in P's cass it's not GOOD either. See what
> I just said about today's R&B and what it sucks: it's the same shit
> over and over again. Except for Mia X and Mystikal, that's No Limit
> Records in a nutshell.
but hip hop is a package deal, it's not just rhymes it's
beats too.
take the artifacts, there's a group that talks about nothing.
at least master p isn't spending 14 tracks telling people
how dope behind a mic he is.
> Point 3. Labels don't even try to market albums for the heads anymore.
> All they want is the next Puff Daddy or Master P. They want the most
> generic, danceable beats, and the most simplistic, laughable rhymes.
> Peace, Flash
creativity might not sell, but elitism sure does
Mike Burke
k. orr <or...@weiss.che.utexas.edu> wrote in article
<340DF0...@weiss.che.utexas.edu>...
> the peops that buy his records don't just buy for them
> gangsta lyrics, people fail to see how tight his beats are.
> and especially in context, where the aesthetics include
> a tight low end, the misssing factor in many an east
> coast or newsgroup approved record(not my words, those of masta ace)
>
> I will be the first to tell you, Mf doom and co flow do not
> hit well at all.
>
I can't speak on MF Doom, as I've only heard him in Real Audio (or
Shockwave, I can't remember), but "Fire In Which You Burn" was throwing my
heart off-beat earlier today; and I don't exactly have a boomin' system.
--
"Even when I say nothing it's a
beautiful use of negative space."
El-P
Mike Burke
Suave
In article <340d95bd....@news.onr.com>, or...@weiss.che.utexas.edu
(kari orr) wrote:
:On Sat, 30 Aug 1997 03:16:02 +0100, nd...@cornell.edu (Suave) wrote:
:
:>:I had 7 or 8 pages, of questions and comments
:>send 'em, I spent mad time on this, I'd like as much feedback as possible.
:
:I might just do it again, cause i went point by point, refuting
:each and every notion, you wrote, and then in the
:finale of your argument, the topic changes.
:that's why i had to address the most serious issue.
I was worried about this because I wrote this thing over the course of a
few weeks and I took lengthened breaks at times and I took an especially
long break before writing the end. In fact, I had originally wanted to
add a great deal many more points to the arguement/essay but when I
returned to the project, my train of thought was lost, and I was lost. I
wasn't trying to sneak anything by on anybody or take anyone's
intelligence for granted, I just slipped up.
:your claim is that hip hop sucks, because the artists
:are selling their works for white money, and you emphasize
:the color of the dollars.
:Master P wasn't thinking about white folks when he made
:his records. And from what i gather from this newsgroup
:and the way that certain magazines have neglected or
:criticized his work i would gather that he is one of
:the things that you would consider has went wrong with hip hop
:music.
why?
:in essence, you don't need white folks to make money,
:you can make a lot of money just by surviving on the
:black audience. Many popular music forms that have
:large white followings, formally had large black followings.
the thing is, the music industry is not just about surviving. if all
artists were happy with just surviving, they would make the music exactly
how they thought it should be made, they would include all types of lyrics
that are marketable to the audience they can "survive" on, and there would
be a completely different flavor to hip hop entirely: no talk of becoming
the biggest willie ever, no talk of being the biggest, richest, most
powerful anything because modesty and survival would be the essence, not
going for the gold. And part of the reason many popular music forms once
sacrificed their integrities or whatever you want to call it is because a
large white following is much larger than a large black following. and
like it or not, the artists accepted this.
:let me put it on a different slant. the vast majority of black
:people who listen to hip hop music, aren't jamming co flow
:and latryx, they aren't dissecting flows or digging for breaks,
:they are riding in their cars and dancing in clubs to the hip hop
:that is most popular right now. Basically the same thing
:white folks do to hip hop music right now.
interesting word selection: "the same thing white people 'do' to hip hop music"
in a sense, you are denoting these black people as outsiders like white
people are and that if hip hop artists are proding their music for this
audience, they are making music for the outsiders of hip hop. this is a
big part of what is wrong with hip hop.
:I would further the argument in saying that, if it is popular
:with black folks, eventually it will be marketed towards
:white folks. This is evident in radio. something will be at
:the top of the charts in the "urban" area, and the
:people in the top 40 area will pick it up. Boyz 2 men is a good
:example. as is that song "if i ever fall in love again" by shai.
it's not that it's just popular with black people, it's the fact that it's
popular in general.
:incidentally, it's rare to see someone from top 40 crossover
:into the urban charts, More often today, is promoting records
:to both markets.
something from the urban charts can be popular but something from the
popular charts can't be urban (unless it originated from the urban
charts). A lot artists, regardless, intentionally make music that will be
popular on the urban charts and then eventually on the pop charts. This
is what bugs me the most: if these artists are the vocal chords for the
hip hop community, how can they claim to be accomplishing anything except
the corruption of the culture with what they are doing? And since it runs
so rampant throught the industry, how can the real fans, the
non-outsiders, be happy with what has happened and what has dominated the
culture? Do the crossover acts outnumber the non-crossover acts in hip
hop?
:so an artist can make records with a black audience in mind
:and then the record is marketed to white folks.
the thing is, according to your above statement, this audience they have
in mind might as well be white because the messages they are waiting to
hear are practically shit and have zero meaning to them as long as they
are made for the fake or ousider's hip hop culture.
:Rap artists, specifically the artists looking for commercial rotation
:aren't creating art because they know they're white audience will
:eat it up. they are creating for the black folks that are eating it
:up, and the white folks come later. they're might be 3 white fans
:for every 1 black fan, but without the black fans, the artists will
:lose the white fans.
i like that statement: "without the black fans, the artists will lose the
white fans". This is so true but yet makes the artists so fake. First of
all, the artists are making their music for the black people who don't
seem to have a clue what the music is really about and what it is really
trying to accomplish, and then there is this constant voice in the back of
their minds that says they have to maintain this image in order to achieve
commercial success later on? Hip hop is beyond corrupted. People see it
from this ideological point of view in which it is still sacred and made
for the people and followers of the great culture yet it seems to amount
to shit when the artists have nothing in mind but getting the most money
possible.
peace,
Steve 'Flash' Juon
KSG wrote:
>
> k. orr wrote:
> > creativity might not sell, but elitism sure does
>
> I don't think this is a fair attack. First, I think you give far too
> much credit to the masses. They seem to want to find away to avoid
> thinking. Look at the bestsellers on the New York Times, you'll find
> Danielle Steele, Jackie Collins, M is for Murder, etc... Look at the
> top movies at the box office, Money Talks, Lost World, Air Force One,
> etc... Now at your local little theatre you will find some of the more
> interesting films. Maybe they won't have the budget, but are
> unquestionably grander films.
There was this one really ill week back when I was at Buena Vista
College that they had an "independent film week" that you could
earn credit for. The idea was that they set aside a conference
room with a VCR and a big screen, and they'd have three showings
a day of some obscure bomb-diggy film nobody had ever heard of.
You had to fill out a slip with a number 2 pencil on what you
thought and turn it in at the end; but like I say you got credit
for it and they usually put out snacks too (free food is an
even better way to lure broke asses like me).
The reason I remember it so well is that in all my 23 years of
watching movies, I've never seen anything else like it in my life.
I've seen plenty of blockbusters, lots of big action films, and all
of the overhyped big budget films that blew a goat but none of them
could hold a candle to this shit. One film was about a German girl
who starts trying to dig up her town's history, and discovers that
many of the city officials and civic leaders are Nazi sympathizers
who went into hiding or changed their names after the war. When she
finds out, it's not just the ex-Nazis that go after her it's the
WHOLE TOWN - they even try to stone her cause they think she's
giving their community a bad name. Another film was about these
two gay guys who are trying to live together as a couple, but one
of the guy's parents are STRICT oriental upbringing and expect
him to participate in an arranged wedding and live happily ever
after. You wouldn't think a film like that would be some comedy
but it was about the FUNNIEST shit I ever saw of all time - I
just wish I could remember what it was called! There was also
an art film called "The Cook, The Wife, His Thief, and Her Lover"
that could put all of the necrophiliac rappers like Dr. Octagon
to shame - truly bugged out shit, but I'm glad that I saw it
because it was a real eye opener and a damned intelligent/
thought-provoking movie.
What's my point? Independent is pretty good most of the time. That
doesn't mean shit that is popular or widely distribute can't be
good (I still think Redman is the bomb, and I loved the movie
Men in Black) but sometimes what is disseminated to large numbers
of masses seems to be made more mediocre on purpose. You can't
make an action film that is intelligent, or people won't go see it.
You can't make a dance album with Rakim level of lyrics, because
people will be too busy thinking to dance (didn't I say that before?).
To the producers of mass media, the more simple it is, the better.
When an independent film like The Crying Game or an underground album
like O.C. blows up, it's usually a fluke or an intentionally chosen
media maneuver to satiate people who just for once got tired of
inane product - once fulfilled, they go back to the bland shit
and keep shoving it down our throats.
> Now when we listen to great music I'm not expecting it to make you think
> in the same way you think when you watch a movie or read a book. It
> should evoke emotion, it should question your sensibilities, it should
> reinforce aspects of your life. Unfortunately commercial hip hop does a
> little too much of the "gonna make you dance". I never get chills
> listenin' to stuff on the radio like I did when I first heard, "My
> Philosophy". Honestly, have you ever listened to a song on commercial
> radio, and when it was done, you turned it off the radio and just stood
> there and thought for a moment about it... I haven't.
Commercial radio? *thinks* No, I have to honestly say I haven't
in a long time, if at all. Maybe back when "Cool Like Dat" by
Digable Planets crossed over to the pop charts. Maybe for a little
bit of time when Naughty By Nature's "O.P.P." blew up everywhere
(I still love Treach flow and lyrical skills, even today). It
happens about as often as a blue moon and that's not very much.
> Don't get me wrong, I don't think all commerical hip hop is bad. Some
> of it I do like, I am human as well and was raised listenin to Too
> Short, the Mack, Mac Dre, etc... But I think to make excuses for a
> populous (which includes myself) that settles for inferiority because
> enjoying a superior product would take work on out part, is not being
> fair to the populous. Maybe if someone told the ancient Romans that
> they were getting corrupt and lazy...
Yeah, but if somebody had would they have listened? Probably not.
Puff Daddy is not going to start promoting quality MC's and hiring
producers like Showbiz and Primo for his mixes no matter how long
and hard we scream at him that the empire is falling.
> I don't think there is anything elitist about saying this. We are all
> victim to this. I think what would be selfish is to sit on our hands
> and give credit to sloppy work, while ignoring artists that actually try
> to do good work.
AMEN.
Peace, Flash
k. orr
Suave wrote:
lets go back to the original post
for those reading, this is primarily a critique of niko's original
thread,
and then a response to the claims he started in the next thread.
________________________________________________
paragraph 1.
hip hop is a culture, much like the mundurucú culture described by
Robert
and Yolanda Murphy's book: women of the forest. The mundurucú have an
egalitarian and cooperative society, as described by the authors, yet
the
men of the society maintain the culture's ideological roots of a male
dominated society and deny the notion of social equality. In the
mundurucu male's eyes, the men are dominant through religion, hunting,
sexuality and warfare. However, because reality affects even the
strictest cultures, the women truly have power because they supply the
village with a vital food supply and they undermine the men's sexual
dominance through solidarity and sociability. The women, through their
actions, completely corrupt the entire system of ideology represented
through the culture's history. Originally a very strict and ideological
culture, the mundurucu are now on the brink of blasphemy and reality is
corrupting the culture's roots.
____________________________________________________________
MY QUESTIONS
1. Is hip hop a culture?
2. Is hip hop a culture, the same way Mundurucu is a culture?
3. If so, then who are the counterparts in hip hop that equate to those
of the Mundurucu.
with respect to the mundurucu, i'm unsure of the problem.
I'm assuming Women have always been apart of the culture, from the
onset.
And if the Men started this culture with this mindset, how long did
it take for Women to upset this balance?
niko continues
___________________________________________________
so how does hip hop relate to the mundurucu?
hip hop is a culture that is corrupted much like that of the mundurucu:
when people speak of the current state of hip hop, nothing but
negativity
emerges because of people's problems with bad boy and people selling
out.
It seems to be the current reasoning that hip hop's corruption is to be
blamed on the artists' selling their souls for money. It has been done
numerous times and has been the current trend. Some of the greatest
hopes
for returning hip hop to its roots sold out:
1. Nas
2. AZ
3. OC
4. even KRS went out
5. the wu
____________________________________________________
MY QUESTIONS
1. What is corruption?
2. Is hip hop corrupted?
3. who are these people that say negative things about the current state
of hip hop?
I do not believe hip hop is corrupted, in fact, i doubt that anyone
could
support that claim legitimately.
These people you speak of, are often an elite few.
College dj's like myself, Hip hop writers, local heads of some
importance,
but my eyes tell me that hip hop is alive and kicking.
I see more hip hop all over the globe and in nearly every avenue of
life.
It would look to me, as if hip hop is doing well, and this view of hip
hop's
corruption speaks more to the ideas of a jaded few versus general hip
hop
consumers and listeners.
4. What exactly is selling your soul for money?
5. and why are those 5 mc's representative of mc's that would
"recapture the essence of hip hop"
niko continues
_____________________________________________________________________
this has decreased people's faith in the music because some incredibly
gifted mcs with incredible skills that brought back or simply captured
the
essence of the music, sold out for the money and decided the music was
less important than their own well-being. That's not what it's about is
it? Doesn't hip hop ideology say that you can't sell your soul for the
money but you should sell it for the music? When an artist begins to
make
crossover sprite commerical type rhymes and uses puff daddy trackmasters
pop beats, isn't he selling his soul? This is where the line between
the
artist selling his soul for the music and selling his soul for the money
becomes shady. It is because because of the music that the artist is
selling his soul for the money. The music came before the money but
also
coexists with the money at the same time. When an artist sells his soul
for the money, it is because of the music that he has this option. He
is
still selling his soul through the music, though and regardless of how
you
look at it, the artist's soul no longer belongs to him and he has sold
it
because he was involved in the music.
___________________________________________________________
MY QUESTIONS
1. what does "selling his soul for the music and selling his soul for
the money
mean.
how do you sell your soul for the music?
i'm not trying to be picky, i really don't understand this concept.
2. what is the standard for creating art, or is having a standard
inherently biased
do people rap for the sake of rapping, is that the creed of everyman
to pick up a mic?
niko continues
________________________________________________________________
When you are making the music, why would you sell your own soul not to
be
heard past the county in which you live? An artist bears all to be
heard
by the world and because money comes along with that, he is shunned.
When
people orignally started to make this music, they were intending the
messages and themes to be heard by all that needed to hear them. Now, a
great deal of the messages need to be heard beyond the large cities and
ghettos and the only way to get these messages accross is through more
universal and general concepts. Ideas specific to your block mean
nothing
to those who live accross the street and when you're trying to reach the
whole neighborhood, you aren't going to get far boosting your own ego by
being limited in your array of concepts. But that's not allowed in the
book of hip hop ideology. The book of hip hop culture states that
making
music that expresses yourself should not reach beyond the people who
will
completely understand you. If you direct your messages past the people
who already understand them, you are selling your soul for the wrong
reasons.
______________________________________________________________
MY QUESTIONS
Is it the point of making music to be heard everywhere on earth?
If money comes along with being heard, that money must have come from
people, so who is shunning an artist making money?
When the og's were making this music, did they intend for all there
themes and messages to be heard by all?
And why do these messages need to be heard places outside of urban
areas?
it would stand to argue, those same messages haven't been HEARD or
HEEDED
in urban areas.
and what book of hip hop culture states that it is wrong to be herad
past the people who already understand them?
niko continues
________________________________________________________________
So according to this, the fans that are being reached by the
messages are the ones responsible, and this is where mr. pizzo reached a
very interesting point. He pointed out that in a club, the heads who
claim to be down for the culture would choose the sellout music over the
real shit because that's where the ladies are and that's where the
dancing
is. So the more the people choose the sellout music over the realness
in
the club and in the streets or wherever, the more the artist is lead to
believe the only way to reach these heads is through the more universal
music. The fans are seemingly corrupting the artist who is in turn
answering the call of the people by selling the music out. The music
does
exist to reach the people, right?
________________________________________________________________
my questions.
1. What mr. pizzo point are you referencing?
2. And if heads claim to be down for the culture, but don't listen
to the "real shit", would that make them not heads in your view?
how are you using the word heads and fans, and ladies. you make them
seem like mutually exclusive terms.
but this part is just all over the place. what is sell out music,
how are fans selling out 'real' artists. how are artist lead to believe
that reaching heads means doing "sellout" music.
and does music exist to reach the people.
that is not the purpose of music.
music just is.
if it is percieved by people, so be it.
niko continues
________________________________________________________________
when the music started to become more universal and reach more and more
people, people that were not orignally intended to be reached by the
music, were being reached. Namely, white people.
________________________________________________________________
was the music becoming more universal in concept, or in commerce?
________________________________________________________________
Now, what began as
simply being reached/touched/moved by the music lead to becoming more
and
more involved in the culture and now having more than a superficial
relationship with the culture, too. White people are producing, mcing,
writing, graffing, breaking, freestyling and completing the necessary
dues
to become somewhat involved in the culture. But are we ever really a
more
than just a participant?
________________________________________________________________
MY QUESTIONS
can you be more than just a participant?
is there more than just being a participant
niko continues
________________________________________________________________
and did our involvement aid to corrupt the
music? well, yes. Since we are judged in discriminatory terms when
described in relation to hip hop, we are responsible for joe white
suburban hip hop and what he does to the music.
________________________________________________________________
MY QUESTIONS
are you saying that there are true fans, and not so true fans.
and that certain white heads have to bear the burden of other white
heads?
niko continues
________________________________________________________________
Therefore, looking back
on white involvement on the culture, we have seemingly corrupted the
artists, corrupted the industry, and corrupted the music and culture.
But
that's looking at all white people in general and not examining the
positive individual contribiutions of some white people. There have
been
countless positive contributions by white people to the culture but
because the culture belongs to black people, we cannot escape our
connections to the negativity of the majority of the white population
towards the culture.
__________________________________________
at this point, i'm unsure of what you want to say anymore.
This whole argument is based on reason, but you seem to just want
to conclude your argument without any reals evidence, or support.
niko continues
________________________________________________________________
this is the main corruption of rap music: once artists found out that
selling records, the whole point of signing a major deal for major
distribution, was the way to make money and accomplish their realistic
goals in life, they started to make music for the people buying the
records. Regardless of how you look at it, since artists are looking to
sell units, they are recording music for white people, thus completely
defeating the original hip hop ideology.
MY COMMENTS
you have decided what the artistic standards are, you have decided
the artists motivations, you have defined the motivations of the
creators,
you have defined the motivations of the audience. all without fully
developing any one of those ideas.
that's just the form of your argument, the content is the same.
You fail to consider all the reasons why people(a small number)
are negative about hip hop culture.
fast forward to current thread
> :in essence, you don't need white folks to make money,
> :you can make a lot of money just by surviving on the
> :black audience. Many popular music forms that have
> :large white followings, formally had large black followings.
>
> the thing is, the music industry is not just about surviving.
semantic point, you can be well off and be independent.
consider it takes 500,000 units to make 300,000 grand on a major lable
(wendy day's article)
versus 75,000 on an indy label to make 300,000.
if you sell local, use local distribution, and your product is dope
you can make the same major label money
just peep master p's discography prior to priorites distribution.
> if all
> artists were happy with just surviving, they would make the music exactly
> how they thought it should be made, they would include all types of lyrics
> that are marketable to the audience they can "survive" on, and there would
> be a completely different flavor to hip hop entirely: no talk of becoming
> the biggest willie ever, no talk of being the biggest, richest, most
> powerful anything because modesty and survival would be the essence, not
> going for the gold.
lyrical content does not equate to financial success or financial
failure.
the fugees kicked a whole album of conscious lyrics.
master p has kicked a whole slew of albums of gangsta lyrics.
lyrics tend to be the smallest part of what people respond to when it
comes
to selling rap music. most people like the music part more than the rap
when it comes to rap music.
that's why producers make the cheese not mc's.
> And part of the reason many popular music forms once
> sacrificed their integrities or whatever you want to call it is because a
> large white following is much larger than a large black following. and
> like it or not, the artists accepted this.
it's a fact, there is nothing to accept.
> :let me put it on a different slant. the vast majority of black
> :people who listen to hip hop music, aren't jamming co flow
> :and latryx, they aren't dissecting flows or digging for breaks,
> :they are riding in their cars and dancing in clubs to the hip hop
> :that is most popular right now. Basically the same thing
> :white folks do to hip hop music right now.
>
> interesting word selection: "the same thing white people 'do' to hip hop music"
> in a sense, you are denoting these black people as outsiders like white
> people are and that if hip hop artists are proding their music for this
> audience, they are making music for the outsiders of hip hop. this is a
> big part of what is wrong with hip hop.
again, there are casual white listeners, as there are casual black
listeners.
now when i say, most mc's write with their main audience in mind,
i'm referring to the fact that most mc's write for people like
themselves.
but people aren't monolithic.
puffy isn't writing for the same people that ras kass is.
due to advanced capitalist strategy hip hop has a niched market place.
> :I would further the argument in saying that, if it is popular
> :with black folks, eventually it will be marketed towards
> :white folks. This is evident in radio. something will be at
> :the top of the charts in the "urban" area, and the
> :people in the top 40 area will pick it up. Boyz 2 men is a good
> :example. as is that song "if i ever fall in love again" by shai.
>
> it's not that it's just popular with black people, it's the fact that it's
> popular in general.
no, not at all.
with radio it's very different.
it has to be popular on the 'urban' charts to get noticed by
the top 40 charts. top 40 didn't discover the killing me softly,
urban radio did.
This
> is what bugs me the most: if these artists are the vocal chords for the
> hip hop community, how can they claim to be accomplishing anything except
> the corruption of the culture with what they are doing? And since it runs
> so rampant throught the industry, how can the real fans, the
> non-outsiders, be happy with what has happened and what has dominated the
> culture? Do the crossover acts outnumber the non-crossover acts in hip
> hop?
real fans?
there are no real fans, there are people that have different interest
levels with respect to hip hop.
> :so an artist can make records with a black audience in mind
> :and then the record is marketed to white folks.
>
> the thing is, according to your above statement, this audience they have
> in mind might as well be white because the messages they are waiting to
> hear are practically shit and have zero meaning to them as long as they
> are made for the fake or ousider's hip hop culture.
again, this is a matter of perspective.
> i like that statement: "without the black fans, the artists will lose the
> white fans". This is so true but yet makes the artists so fake. First of
> all, the artists are making their music for the black people who don't
> seem to have a clue what the music is really about and what it is really
> trying to accomplish,
again, this is your own personal view, not a general one shared by all.
hip hop music is party music, it started at parties, it's still played
in
clubs as we speak.
since when was dope lyrical concepts and ill political messages part
of the package?
it didn't start with chuck, krs or rakim.
it didn't even start with an mc, but rather a dj.
is clamz of death a song without merit, because it has no words?
is all about the benjamins a lesser creation because you don't like
the microphone skills?
> and then there is this constant voice in the back of
> their minds that says they have to maintain this image in order to achieve
> commercial success later on? Hip hop is beyond corrupted. People see it
> from this ideological point of view in which it is still sacred and made
> for the people and followers of the great culture yet it seems to amount
> to shit when the artists have nothing in mind but getting the most money
> possible.
> Niko Suave
it's not as bad as you think Niko, you need a real perspective on
what hip hop is, and the role it has played in the lives of others.
it will be a sad day for hip hop, when all of the releases were meant
for the mind to cogitate on and never dance to.
peace
k. orr
house ofphat beats
S. Watson
Steve 'Flash' Juon wrote:
> Another film was about these
> two gay guys who are trying to live together as a couple, but one
> of the guy's parents are STRICT oriental upbringing and expect
> him to participate in an arranged wedding and live happily ever
> after. You wouldn't think a film like that would be some comedy
> but it was about the FUNNIEST shit I ever saw of all time - I
> just wish I could remember what it was called!
It's called "The Wedding Banquet" ... I couldn't live by major film
releases alone, independent films are a necessity ....
S. Watson
Steve 'Flash' Juon wrote:
> Another film was about these
> two gay guys who are trying to live together as a couple, but one
> of the guy's parents are STRICT oriental upbringing and expect
> him to participate in an arranged wedding and live happily ever
> after. You wouldn't think a film like that would be some comedy
> but it was about the FUNNIEST shit I ever saw of all time - I
> just wish I could remember what it was called!
It's called "The Wedding Banquet" ... I couldn't live by major film
Christina Hsu
In <340F52BF...@ccm.intel.co.jp> "S. Watson"
<wat...@ccm.intel.co.jp> writes:
>Steve 'Flash' Juon wrote:
>
>> Another film was about these
>> two gay guys who are trying to live together as a couple, but one
>> of the guy's parents are STRICT oriental upbringing and expect
>> him to participate in an arranged wedding and live happily ever
>> after. You wouldn't think a film like that would be some comedy
>> but it was about the FUNNIEST shit I ever saw of all time - I
>> just wish I could remember what it was called!
>
>releases alone, independent films are a necessity ....
>
peace,
Martay
kari orr
On Thu, 04 Sep 1997 11:44:19 +0100, KSG <kga...@cs.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>Your right that creativity is relative, but I think its fair to say that
>even on relative scales the "playa" raps haven't been the most creative.
actually i find the stereotypical dirty south out west cats, tend
to give their listeners much more variety of sound than their
east coast counter parts.
it's almost a rule in East coast beat making, that everything sounds
sample based, but down south, they tend to use the
live band replaying the sample in addition to the break based sound.
Eightball and Mjg's album is like that.
It might seem that there are an abundance of "your city's" most
wanted, and Lil ' "insert lettter here" but i think it's relative to
the amount of cats coming out representing the standard
newsgroup hip hop.
>> believe me, if you take over a commercial radio station
>> in la and in nyc heavily rotate cats like hiero and the lix
>> you will get fans yelling
>> "tash rules, north coast sucks"
>
>Could you do the same with Latyrx or Funcrusher?
yeah, Latyrx has some crossover beats just waiting to get played.
Funcrusher would be harder, but not impossible.
the masses tastes are made by people in commercial radio
and video. At first there might be resistance of the peops to
listen to this "real hip hop", but again, most of the people who
listen to rap, really don't care that much about it. so if newsgroup
heads feel better if the average 10 year old is singing along with
El -P so be it.
The real problem is not the material, it's peoples education
about hip hop. Most folks do not realize that there is more
to it than just shaking your frame or nodding your head.
the problem extends outside of hip hop, people are "too busy"
to learn.
>> > Point 1. Master P appeals to people who like simplicity and think they
>> > can relate to slanging dope and gangbanging; because that's almost all
>> > he ever raps about.
not a response to ksg, but to the previous poster
wrong
>>> I don't care if it sells to black people or white
>> > people (and we know it's selling to white idiots who think it's the
>> > latest wave of "TRU" gangsta shit) because the audience is the same.
again, white "idiots" wouldn't be listening if the black "idiots"
didn't make it popular. I resent the term idiot also.
>> > He went "ghetto gold", but so have much better artists. The Click
>> > went "ghetto gold". Lord Finesse and Brand Nubian were "ghetto gold".
>> > EPMD was most certainly "ghetto gold". These people are all much more
>> > talented than Master Piss.
When was the last time finesse, the nubians, or epmd put out a record.
the ghetto done changed.
>> P rhymes about what he knows, not everything that he knows,
>> but what he wants to rhyme about. many mc's don't rhyme about
>> what they had for lunch, because to them it's not interesting,
>> they would have nothing to say about it.
>
>The thing that bugs me about the above is that people find it so much
>more interesting to rhyme about slanging dope or gang banging.
it's not just a hip hop thing. Most of the block buster movies
is about violence or sex. You can't stop people's fascination with
the struggle for life, and to create life.
> I really
>don't care about it (which probably explains why I don't buy the
>records). To be honest some nice tracks on lunch would be cool,
>especially if they had some crunchy peanut butter (the Laura Scudders
>kind).
This is where the underground comes in.
some segments of the hip hop market aren't being served
and the underground fills those niches.
the elitist mindset of many a hip hop head only furthers to
make capitalism more efficient, but more importantly
drive wedges into a genre that less than a decade ago was
unified at least in what they were exposed too.
>If I listened only to hip hop (and wasn't raised in a hood called the
>Presidents) I would think that the ghetto was basically just dope
>dealing, gang banging, rich a** playas, where everyone was just getting
>laid. I guess it's all good to sell out your hood for some ends.
again, you don't need to listent to hip hop, to come to that
conclusion, the television shows are much more effective
in perpetuating that 'reality'.
>Masta Ace really said, "newsgroup approved record". That's cool. Well
>I agree that Master P's beats are sometimes tight. I guess the problem
>I have is that if there are no lyrics to help carry the tide, I get
>bored of a regular 4 ta 8 measure beats in a couple of minutes if there
>is no texture.
actually Ace, said something to the effect that a lot of records(east
coast is what he should have prefaced it with) are missing the
deep bass sound that you used to get with the 808.
P ain't a tight mc, Mia X and Mystikal are.
>Beats that hit are easy though (IMHO). Certain formulas work well...
>they often will sound similar, but we have come to expect that in
>commercial music.
if they were, how come more of the underground doesn't make
beats as catchy as all about the benjamins.
do underground cats not like nodding their heads?
last time i checked, they did.
but your average cnn or grouch isn't making beats considering
the nod factor, though a few sneak by.
>I don't think this is a fair attack. First, I think you give far too
>much credit to the masses. They seem to want to find away to avoid
>thinking.
i think the masses are individuals, and so called dumb things that
the masses do, is a revision of history.
when mission impossible makes a 100 million, why is that an indication
of the intelligent quotient of the people that went to go see it?
>Look at the bestsellers on the New York Times, you'll find
>Danielle Steele, Jackie Collins, M is for Murder, etc... Look at the
>top movies at the box office, Money Talks, Lost World, Air Force One,
>etc... Now at your local little theatre you will find some of the more
>interesting films. Maybe they won't have the budget, but are
>unquestionably grander films.
unquestionably grander films.
Do i need to point out the elitism in your statement?
What makes these films unquestionably grander?
>Now when we listen to great music I'm not expecting it to make you think
>in the same way you think when you watch a movie or read a book. It
>should evoke emotion, it should question your sensibilities, it should
>reinforce aspects of your life. Unfortunately commercial hip hop does a
>little too much of the "gonna make you dance".
where did hip hop start, at a political rally, a independent film
festival, a meeting at mensa's philosophy club
i remember that it started with djs at parties.
what do people do at parties,
well i don't know about the hip hop heads, everyone
else is dancing, conversating, imbibing, whatever.
This condition of what hip hop is supposed to be,
is one imposed by the ability to record and study the
music, versus experience it.
>I never get chills
>listenin' to stuff on the radio like I did when I first heard, "My
>Philosophy". Honestly, have you ever listened to a song on commercial
>radio, and when it was done, you turned it off the radio and just stood
>there and thought for a moment about it... I haven't.
The first place I heard Elevators, was on commercial radio.
>Don't get me wrong, I don't think all commerical hip hop is bad. Some
>of it I do like, I am human as well and was raised listenin to Too
>Short, the Mack, Mac Dre, etc... But I think to make excuses for a
>populous (which includes myself) that settles for inferiority because
>enjoying a superior product would take work on out part, is not being
>fair to the populous. Maybe if someone told the ancient Romans that
>they were getting corrupt and lazy...
1. do people realize that they are listening to inferior product?
2. would it take more work to enjoy a so called superior product?
>I don't think there is anything elitist about saying this. We are all
>victim to this. I think what would be selfish is to sit on our hands
>and give credit to sloppy work, while ignoring artists that actually try
>to do good work.
>KSG
let's get to the core of the issue.
all men aren't created equal. all of us don't have equal abilities nor
experience.
but where do you hold the standard, up where only few can
grasp it, or down where everyone can take hold?
KSG
Thanks for reposting the original post, as I don't think my server ever
received it. Well lets address some points you and Niko make.
k. orr wrote:
>
> Suave wrote:
>
> lets go back to the original post
> for those reading, this is primarily a critique of niko's original
> thread,
> and then a response to the claims he started in the next thread.
> ________________________________________________
> MY QUESTIONS
>
> 1. Is hip hop a culture?
> 2. Is hip hop a culture, the same way Mundurucu is a culture?
Hip hop is a culture, if only in the loosest sense of the word. It is
not the same as the Mundrurucu culture. The biggest difference being
the lack of regional homogeneity.
> niko continues
> ___________________________________________________
> so how does hip hop relate to the mundurucu?
>
> hip hop is a culture that is corrupted much like that of the mundurucu:
> MY QUESTIONS
>
> 1. What is corruption?
I would say it is loss of integrity.
> 2. Is hip hop corrupted?
Recently I talked to one of my friends about the San Diego hip hop scene
and how he should represent. He's a pretty skilled lyricist, but he
started going about should he come as a pimp-playa or a hardcore
gangsta. He's never written those types of rhymes in his life. He was
being serious too, he was thinking of getting paid. Hip hop is corrupt,
but could you expect otherwise. Our society is corrupt.
> 3. who are these people that say negative things about the current state
> of hip hop?
>
> I do not believe hip hop is corrupted, in fact, i doubt that anyone
> could support that claim legitimately.
Really? I guess I am at the opposite end of the extreme. I see more
corruption in hip hop than I see pureness.
> I see more hip hop all over the globe and in nearly every avenue of
> life.
> It would look to me, as if hip hop is doing well, and this view of hip
> hop's
> corruption speaks more to the ideas of a jaded few versus general hip
> hop
> consumers and listeners.
Is the heroine corrupt? It is certainly doing well and kicking. I
think judging the level of corruption in an industry by how well it is
selling to consumers is the wrong way to look at things. I think it is
better to judge the corruption in the industry first, and then make
statements about the consumers. I think the consumers in this case are
being simplistic, lack a sense of history, and are indifferent to hip
hop in general.
> niko continues
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
> When an artist begins to
> make
> crossover sprite commerical type rhymes and uses puff daddy trackmasters
> pop beats, isn't he selling his soul?
Absolutely not. I think there is a difference between using your music
to sell Sprite, and using Sprite to support your music. The line is
easily crossed, but I do think the line exists.
> and does music exist to reach the people.
>
> that is not the purpose of music.
> music just is.
> if it is percieved by people, so be it.
Well here you step into a debate that has been going on for centuries.
Maybe we should simplify this to "hip hop" music.
> ________________________________________________________________
> and did our involvement aid to corrupt the
> music? well, yes. Since we are judged in discriminatory terms when
> described in relation to hip hop, we are responsible for joe white
> suburban hip hop and what he does to the music.
What does "joe white" do to the music? What exactly do white suburban
kids do to the music that is bad?
> Therefore, looking back
> on white involvement on the culture, we have seemingly corrupted the
> artists, corrupted the industry, and corrupted the music and culture.
Wow, this came out of the blue. White involvement certainly has not
corrupted hip hop. At least not in the way you suggest. Maybe the
whites on the record labels have, but not "joe white". I think you give
whites far too much credit for this corruption.
> but
> because the culture belongs to black people
Belongs to black people? Black people don't own hip hop, certain blacks
are part of the culture, but it doesn't belong to "blacks". Some may
argue that the black community as a whole has shunned "hip hop".
> this is the main corruption of rap music: once artists found out that
> selling records, the whole point of signing a major deal for major
> distribution, was the way to make money and accomplish their realistic
> goals in life, they started to make music for the people buying the
> records. Regardless of how you look at it, since artists are looking to
> sell units, they are recording music for white people, thus completely
> defeating the original hip hop ideology.
This would have happened for any ethnic group. Because whites comprise
the largest component of the US population their impact will be felt
first. The selling out of hip hop artists was done irrespective of the
races for whom they sell to.
> fast forward to current thread:
> > if all
> > artists were happy with just surviving, they would make the music exactly
> > how they thought it should be made, they would include all types of lyrics
> > that are marketable to the audience they can "survive" on, and there would
> > be a completely different flavor to hip hop entirely: no talk of becoming
> > the biggest willie ever, no talk of being the biggest, richest, most
> > powerful anything because modesty and survival would be the essence, not
> > going for the gold.
>
> lyrical content does not equate to financial success or financial
> failure.
> the fugees kicked a whole album of conscious lyrics.
> master p has kicked a whole slew of albums of gangsta lyrics.
>
> lyrics tend to be the smallest part of what people respond to when it
> comes
> to selling rap music. most people like the music part more than the rap
> when it comes to rap music.
The sad part is that the lyrics in rap are really the only interesting
thing. In 100 years when historians look back at rap in the 20th
century I think it will be said that rap was one of the most innovative
lyrical forms of our time, but one of the most musically lacking eras
ever.
> > And part of the reason many popular music forms once
> > sacrificed their integrities or whatever you want to call it is because a
> > large white following is much larger than a large black following. and
> > like it or not, the artists accepted this.
>
> it's a fact, there is nothing to accept.
I think it has nothing to do with the race. It has to do with the size
of the buying public. If every white person fell of the face of the
Earth and was replaced by a black person (of equal wealth), rap music
wouldn't change that much. I enjoy a good race based argument as much
as the next guy, but I don't think it really applies here.
>
> again, this is your own personal view, not a general one shared by all.
> hip hop music is party music, it started at parties, it's still played
> in clubs as we speak.
This is something that bugs me. This stuck in history view of hip hop.
Hip hop started as MCs grabbing the mic having fun with no depth,
thought, or clarity and god forbid if it evolves beyond that. It's not
1977 anymore, it's not NY, it's not disco clubs.
> since when was dope lyrical concepts and ill political messages part
> of the package?
Since back in the day. Rockin the mic in the disco clubs got
progressively better in a short period of time. It went from "Doug J in
the House, Ken Rock in the House, Jazzy L in the House, we all got a
blouse" to "Doug J is the best, Ken Rock is no less, Jazzy L makes it
rough, Iran ain't so tough". Clever rhymes back in '76 (and such)
probably got more props than clever rhymes do now (admittedly they
usually weren't nearly as clever as alot of the stuff we here on a daily
basis now). And I think you did hear cool little disses of the NY mayor
and stuff about the Iran hostage situation.
> is clamz of death a song without merit, because it has no words?
Nope.
> is all about the benjamins a lesser creation because you don't like
> the microphone skills?
Well it's a song I would like less.
>
> it's not as bad as you think Niko, you need a real perspective on
> what hip hop is, and the role it has played in the lives of others.
>
> it will be a sad day for hip hop, when all of the releases were meant
> for the mind to cogitate on and never dance to.
Could it be worse than it is now, when urban DJs on the major stations
play only music to dance to and not to cogitate on (hehe, learned a new
word). Maybe in Austin things are different, but here on the Beat or
Z90, I think it is illegal to think from the 10am to 9pm time slots.
While I would like to think internally hip hop could do something to
resolve this, I don't really think it will happen. Something has
happened to our society, and it is simply manifesting itself in art. We
seem to be maturing more quickly, yet have been intellectually
restricted. This has turned out to be a very destructive combination.
Going into my reasons why I think this has happened could get rather
lengthy in its own right, and I am probably no more correct than any
other sociologist who has studied this problem.
Support good art, and reject the bad. That maybe the best we can do...
--
KSG
Bring the Noise on KSDT UCSD
KSDT: http://scw.ucsd.edu/ksdt/index.html
Personal: http://www-cse.ucsd.edu/users/kgatlin/
"In Hip Hop's atomic structure, I am the nucleus"
KRS-1
"It's a great day for genocide. That's the day all the niggas died"
Ice Cube
ANON
> sample based, but down south, they tend to use the
> live band replaying the sample in addition to the break based sound.
> Eightball and Mjg's album is like that.
Eightball and Mjg albums sound like 1970's Polyester color-clashing
sports coats. I agree that Eightball and MJG's beats do sound
different then Master P's. But they are both horrible.The reason
southerers use a band is cause they don't want to pay for the sample.
They will jack larger elements of a song. If Puff would've hired a
studio musician to replay "Every Breath You Take" by the Police would
that make him more musical?
Eightball gets more props then Master P though cause he does'nt remake
Aaliyah songs in 35 minutes after hearing on the way home from Baton
Rouge(Master P interview in Vibe Magazine).
>It might seem that there are an abundance of "your city's" most
> wanted, and Lil ' "insert lettter here" but i think it's relative to
> the amount of cats coming out representing the standard
> newsgroup hip hop.
I somewhat agree with this. For every Mobb Deep you've got Capone and
Noriega..For every De La you have a Natural Resources...You get my
point. I don't wanna hear the Young South Syndicate or Capone And
Noriega...Cause they both are people trying to get over on some
bullshit. And I'm not condemning the violence.
I don't really wanna turn this to a South vs. The rest arguement. I
live in Louisiana.
> >Could you do the same with Latyrx or Funcrusher?
>
> yeah, Latyrx has some crossover beats just waiting to get played.
> Funcrusher would be harder, but not impossible.
If Funcrusher Plus were popular it would be treated like Wu-Tang
Forever. Latryx would be another bullshit album like PM Dawn.
> When was the last time finesse, the nubians, or epmd put out a record.
> the ghetto done changed.
I heard a new EPMD record driving thru Houston 3 weeks agothey played
a Willie D song after it. I think the average southerner still likes
EPMD,Rakim and Slick Rick. If they came out today these guys would be
considered "bustas"
> >> P rhymes about what he knows, not everything that he knows,
> >> but what he wants to rhyme about.
> >
> >The thing that bugs me about the above is that people find it so much
> >more interesting to rhyme about slanging dope or gang banging.
> it's not just a hip hop thing. Most of the block buster movies
> is about violence or sex. You can't stop people's fascination with
> the struggle for life, and to create life.
That does'nt make the shit dope. "Resevoir Dogs" vs most action
adventure movies. They both had mad violence but "Resovoir Dogs" came
at it a different way. Maybe Seagal,and Tarantino both do what they
know. Who cares? The point is that Tarantino makes a superior movie.
Master P can't make good music. No matter how much he knows about
crack. Percee P can't make a good record no matter how well he can
rhyme.
> This is where the underground comes in.
> some segments of the hip hop market aren't being served
> and the underground fills those niches.
> the elitist mindset of many a hip hop head only furthers to
> make capitalism more efficient, but more importantly
> drive wedges into a genre that less than a decade ago was
> unified at least in what they were exposed too.
Who made the wedge? I listen to Co Flow,Common and the rest. I go to
work and speak with people. I never condemn anyone when they tell me
they like Master P,Cube or Pac.
They ask me what I like. I tell them. They smirk "oh brah,you like
that Hip Hop"...""Thats for bustas".."Fuck Dre..whats with dis East
Coast West Coast Unity" "YOu don't like Master P Brah.oh you ain't on
his level".."Wu-Tang..dem niggas think they Chinks..we like Scarface
movies down here fuck that busta chink shit" That is some elitist
shit.
There are only 17 murders a year in this town.So why is this what they
claim to relate to?
They are just as bad as your newsgroup elitist. They won't give
anything a chance until its proven to be busta-free. I'll hear any
record out a few times.Most of my friends will too.
> actually Ace, said something to the effect that a lot of records(east
> coast is what he should have prefaced it with) are missing the
> deep bass sound that you used to get with the 808.
You can say this about the indies. Maybe thats why people like Redman
so much down here? But If that what Hip Hop comes down to "Bass Music"
I think it has really squandered a lot of potential for actual
expression.
> >Look at the bestsellers on the New York Times, you'll find
>
> Now at your local little theatre you will find some of the more
> >interesting films. Maybe they won't have the budget, but are
> >unquestionably grander films.
>
> unquestionably grander films.
>
> Do i need to point out the elitism in your statement?
> What makes these films unquestionably grander?
Not every indy film is good. But there are more dope indy films than
major studios.
> where did hip hop start, at a political rally, a independent film
> festival, a meeting at mensa's philosophy club
Word..I hate when people try to act like Hip hop was always PE,LAkim
Shabazz and Paris...I also find that most so-called intelligent mcs
seem to have base there whole knowledge on like 2 or 3 books.
But do we want Hip hop to be a hustle?Or an actual way of expression?
We are only hearing one form of expression with these gangsta,bass
records.Hip hop was started at the party but also to express for those
with no voices.
Did'nt Grand Master Flash got into Hip hop cause he did'nt like any
thing he heard on the radio? He was'nt hearing anyone expressing
anything. It was just disco.
Are we back to disco when we strictly dance?
> This condition of what hip hop is supposed to be,
> is one imposed by the ability to record and study the
> music, versus experience it.
Studying it is part of the experience.
> 1. do people realize that they are listening to inferior product?
I don't know. Can a Natural Resource fan answer this for me?
> 2. would it take more work to enjoy a so called superior product?
> >I don't think there is anything elitist about saying this. We are all> >victim to this.
If shits better say its better. If I'm an elitist for saying the Roots
last album is 2 gazillion times better than Master P so be it.
> but where do you hold the standard, up where only few can
> grasp it, or down where everyone can take hold?
I saw some girl ,wearing her Popeyes chicken uniform,on the bus the
other day. She was very glum. But when "Da Dip" by Freak Nasty came on
she became happy.
I'm not saying that "Da Dip" is dope. It is incredibly wak. But it
made her happy.
This still does'nt validate "Da Dip" cause the record is crap.It makes
her happy cause that is all she is conditioned to hear.
This brings us back to when Kari asked do you want 10 year old kids
quoting EL-P?
If Co Flow had the exposure..this girl could've been happy about his
ill rhyme skills.I look at Freak Nasty as stealing Co Flows loot.
To speak more broadly-We all know people have reasons for liking
something. It isn't just some bizarre phenonom that Puff,and Master P
sell records. They have mass appeal.
Those reasons don't make a good record. In a very nice way here is why
you told us to respect Master P:He has bass and knows about selling
crack.This what people want hear,true.
But this isn't the criteria for respect. He has'nt shown anything but
an ability to manufacture and market to the lowest common denomator.
Is Budweiser the King Of Beers? Naw..Most beers taste better. But
Budweiser sells more because it is cheaper and is the most exposed.The
fact remains that New Castle is a better beer. Now if New Castle was
the same price and struggling to make ends meet,would'nt you be
dissapointed with Budweiser drinkers?
"Da Dip" is Budweiser in this situation.The radio is free so people
drink it. But it does'nt make the record more than just warm piss.
When they make purchases they buy the same piss for the same price as
any other record.
So the lack of taste is partly their exposure and partly their not
caring what they listen to. Why playa hate us for having taste?
Okay,I probably haven't made a linear point with my statements. So
here is my opinion:
-Hip hop can't be totally defined.
-Hip Hop is only two words..its an abstraction..It is the Four
Elements for me..But I'm white..I can't tell a poor,broke,black Master
P fan what Hip hop is.Because in the long run Hip hop is owned by
black people.It is both and neither.Because it can't be defined. So no
precendants wins.
-Not"the it started with the Four elemants"
-Not "It is for the party"
-Not "It was to give Blacks and Puerto Ricans voices"
These things all complement and cotradict each other. In the beginning
you could'nt define it,how the hell you gonna do it now?
We all have our own view. I'm gonna look out for my mine. That means
the four elements. That means trying to get heads into other things.
Because in the long run I think it will be better for me and everyone
else. It will realize a grander potential than just a short-term
satisfation of a party.
After the party is over you have to live.Hip Hop has to service all
those other needs to become a total culture.
So I guess I'm agreeing with you. We are too fragmented.
ANON
Mike Marich
Christina Hsu wrote:
>
> In <340F52BF...@ccm.intel.co.jp> "S. Watson"
> <wat...@ccm.intel.co.jp> writes:
> >
> >Steve 'Flash' Juon wrote:
> >
> >> Another film was about these
> >> two gay guys who are trying to live together as a couple, but one
> >> of the guy's parents are STRICT oriental upbringing and expect
> >> him to participate in an arranged wedding and live happily ever
> >> after. You wouldn't think a film like that would be some comedy
> >> but it was about the FUNNIEST shit I ever saw of all time - I
> >> just wish I could remember what it was called!
> >
> >It's called "The Wedding Banquet" ... I couldn't live by major film
> >releases alone, independent films are a necessity ....
> >
> True Indeed. Indy films are the shit.
> peace,
>
> Martay
True. Does anybody remember who released "Kids?"
Mike
Jonathan Dean Ripp
kari orr (or...@weiss.che.utexas.edu) wrote:
: where did hip hop start, at a political rally, a independent film
: festival, a meeting at mensa's philosophy club
: i remember that it started with djs at parties.
: what do people do at parties,
: well i don't know about the hip hop heads, everyone
: else is dancing, conversating, imbibing, whatever.
But hip-hop has grown into much more than just party jams.
Why would a art form revert into something where it didn't have the impact
it once had? Take it to 1988 with Rakim, BDP, PE, EPMD and whoever else.
Dope jams that people where grooving to with lyrics that were educating as
well as entertaining. Same goes for De La, Tribe, Brand Nubian at the
turn of the decade.
There's nothing wrong with dance joints, my beef now is with the
lyricists. Take Mase. This guy is hot right now, girls like his voice
and his skills aren't terrible. But all he talks about is money or
getting honeys. Alright, you don't have to be on some elevation topics
but at least something better than what he does.
Thats what I don't like about hip-hop now. The art, at the commercial
level, isn't just stagnant but actually going back in time to Hammer's
days of beat jacking and wak lyrics.
Ripp
T. Tauri
Mike Marich wrote:
> Does anybody remember who released "Kids?"
I think it was Miramax.
Peece,
T. Tauri
Christina Hsu
In <34119A...@worldnet.att.net> "T. Tauri" <ea...@worldnet.att.net>
writes:
martay
Steve 'Flash' Juon
ANON wrote:
> Eightball and Mjg albums sound like 1970's Polyester color-clashing
> sports coats. I agree that Eightball and MJG's beats do sound
> different then Master P's. But they are both horrible.The reason
> southerers use a band is cause they don't want to pay for the sample.
> They will jack larger elements of a song. If Puff would've hired a
> studio musician to replay "Every Breath You Take" by the Police would
> that make him more musical?
>
> Eightball gets more props then Master P though cause he does'nt remake
> Aaliyah songs in 35 minutes after hearing on the way home from Baton
> Rouge(Master P interview in Vibe Magazine).
Actually, I'll give Eightball and MJG credit for being good lyricists.
Don't front. Listen to "In the Wind", "Listen to Me Now", "Space Age
Pimpin", etc. etc. They may be playaz but they rise above the
mediocrity of most playalistic rappers from the South and actually
kick interesting concepts with good flows.
Also, I like most of the Eightball and MJG beats I've ever heard.
I don't know whether that has anything to do with live playing or not.
Somehow, they just sound more musical than records from the No Limit
family of producers.
> I somewhat agree with this. For every Mobb Deep you've got Capone and
> Noriega..For every De La you have a Natural Resources...You get my
> point. I don't wanna hear the Young South Syndicate or Capone And
> Noriega...Cause they both are people trying to get over on some
> bullshit. And I'm not condemning the violence.
> I don't really wanna turn this to a South vs. The rest arguement. I
> live in Louisiana.
I'm not really sure what the argument is, nor would I buy into
it anyway. I like OutKast just as much as I like Pharcyde, and
Bushwick Bill just as much as I do Erick Sermon.
> If Funcrusher Plus were popular it would be treated like Wu-Tang
> Forever. Latryx would be another bullshit album like PM Dawn.
I don't quite follow this either. What makes Latyrx like PM Dawn?
PM Dawn's lyrics were quite frankly, "Plastic." Latyrx lyrics are
intricate, well thought out, and placed on slamming beats.
> I heard a new EPMD record driving thru Houston 3 weeks agothey played
> a Willie D song after it. I think the average southerner still likes
> EPMD,Rakim and Slick Rick. If they came out today these guys would be
> considered "bustas"
He likes it, but they would be considered bustas? I thought being
a busta meant you were wack (which always made me wonder about
the name Busta Rhymes, actually).
"Punk ass busta I oughta break your front jaw", etc.
> That does'nt make the shit dope. "Resevoir Dogs" vs most action
> adventure movies. They both had mad violence but "Resovoir Dogs" came
> at it a different way. Maybe Seagal,and Tarantino both do what they
> know. Who cares? The point is that Tarantino makes a superior movie.
> Master P can't make good music. No matter how much he knows about
> crack. Percee P can't make a good record no matter how well he can
> rhyme.
Violence can be used constructively. If it makes you think, if it
makes you question, if it makes you concerned, it was a means to an
end. Menace II Society was that kind of film to me - horrifically
violent but disturbingly real. Cutting straight to the heart of
why things are fucked up. The older generation puts the guns in
the hands of the next - maybe it was too blatant but it's so true.
> Who made the wedge? I listen to Co Flow,Common and the rest. I go to
> work and speak with people. I never condemn anyone when they tell me
> they like Master P,Cube or Pac.
I don't "condemn" anybody for listening to Master P, but I do condemn
people who say I'm a "playa hata" because I don't like all his lyrics
or his beats. Frankly, he can go on and be bout it bout it - I ain't
stopping him.
> They ask me what I like. I tell them. They smirk "oh brah,you like
> that Hip Hop"...""Thats for bustas".."Fuck Dre..whats with dis East
> Coast West Coast Unity" "YOu don't like Master P Brah.oh you ain't on
> his level".."Wu-Tang..dem niggas think they Chinks..we like Scarface
> movies down here fuck that busta chink shit" That is some elitist
> shit.
That's what I thought: busta = wack. Everybody got their own elitist
type shit. People don't try to feel where hip-hop is a universal
phenomenon now; but then again I've said this before so I won't repeat.
> There are only 17 murders a year in this town.So why is this what they
> claim to relate to?
Again, I fall back to Ed Lover.
"What is keeping it real? Loving your moms is real."
To me, a lot of the most classic hip-hop jams are about having
fun in the park in the summer, or hangin out and acting stupid
on the block. Now THAT is somethin we can all relate to.
I know somebody is gonna say "Didn't Flash live on a farm?"
Of course. That doesn't mean I didn't go to school in town,
or go to town to hang out with my friends. We did a MAD gang
of stupid shit. Fresh Prince would have an even harder time
making his Parents Understand Us than he did for his own folks.
> They are just as bad as your newsgroup elitist. They won't give
> anything a chance until its proven to be busta-free. I'll hear any
> record out a few times.Most of my friends will too.
That's why I bought the Tru album (for $6 used, at the bookstore).
My philosophy is that it's not fair to say something is good and wack
unless you actually checked it out for yourself. And in fairness,
there are some good songs on the Tru album - but like Wu-Tang Forever
I think it's bloated, overhyped, and definitely weak in a lot of places.
> You can say this about the indies. Maybe thats why people like Redman
> so much down here? But If that what Hip Hop comes down to "Bass Music"
> I think it has really squandered a lot of potential for actual
> expression.
Exactly. If you make another record about gangsterism, it may be easy
for people to "relate" but you haven't elevated the level of hip-hop.
We used to be about taking things to the next level, but now we're just
satisfied to make shit people "relate" to.
> Word..I hate when people try to act like Hip hop was always PE,LAkim
> Shabazz and Paris...I also find that most so-called intelligent mcs
> seem to have base there whole knowledge on like 2 or 3 books.
I'm still waiting on my copy of "Behold a Pale Horse" to see whether
there's any substance to it or if people are just quoting this book
to come off as being "mad knowledged".
> Did'nt Grand Master Flash got into Hip hop cause he did'nt like any
> thing he heard on the radio? He was'nt hearing anyone expressing
> anything. It was just disco.
And people ask why I don't like R&B...
> Are we back to disco when we strictly dance?
> ...
> "Da Dip" is Budweiser in this situation.The radio is free so people
> drink it. But it does'nt make the record more than just warm piss.
> When they make purchases they buy the same piss for the same price as
> any other record.
> So the lack of taste is partly their exposure and partly their not
> caring what they listen to. Why playa hate us for having taste?
Then again, sometimes the Amsterdam Light really isn't any different
from Budweiser. You have to admit there is a certain elitism in
beer sales which tries to get you to buy into "taste" and "quality"
and if costs more, it must be better. I bought a whole case of
beer for five dollars once - Maple Wheat Ale. It tastes great.
Then I bought the expensive classy Guinness which is like nine dollars
for a six pack and thought it was the most bitter, awful tasting
beer I had EVER had. Totally nasty.
To bring the analogy back to hip-hop, cheap isn't always necessarily
BAD. There are things I like on the radio: Will Smith, LL Cool J,
etc. That doesn't mean that you can't acquire a taste for better
hip-hop, but it is definitely elitist to just dismiss James Todd Smith
just because he's cheap and free.
> -Hip hop can't be totally defined.
> -Hip Hop is only two words..its an abstraction..It is the Four
> Elements for me..But I'm white..I can't tell a poor,broke,black Master
> P fan what Hip hop is.Because in the long run Hip hop is owned by
> black people.It is both and neither.Because it can't be defined. So no
> precendants wins.
And I don't argue that Master P isn't hip-hop: I just argue that his
own brand of hip-hop music is pretty pathetic.
> -Not"the it started with the Four elemants"
> -Not "It is for the party"
> -Not "It was to give Blacks and Puerto Ricans voices"
> These things all complement and cotradict each other. In the beginning
> you could'nt define it,how the hell you gonna do it now?
> We all have our own view. I'm gonna look out for my mine. That means
> the four elements. That means trying to get heads into other things.
> Because in the long run I think it will be better for me and everyone
> else. It will realize a grander potential than just a short-term
> satisfation of a party.
> After the party is over you have to live.Hip Hop has to service all
> those other needs to become a total culture.
> So I guess I'm agreeing with you. We are too fragmented.
>
> ANON
What always KILLS me is that European heads seem to understand
hip-hop better than American heads do. I know peeps overseas
who listen to everything from Company Flow, to Biggie Smalls,
to Ras Kass, to Infinite Mass - they appreciate the broad
diversity of hip-hop. Then you come to the states and go
to Texas. "Biggie Small? Fuck that busta. Master P nigguh!"
Wes
Steve 'Flash' Juon wrote:
>
> ANON wrote:
> Actually, I'll give Eightball and MJG credit for being good lyricists.
> Don't front. Listen to "In the Wind", "Listen to Me Now", "Space Age
> Pimpin", etc. etc. They may be playaz but they rise above the
> mediocrity of most playalistic rappers from the South and actually
> kick interesting concepts with good flows.
I've heard "Space Age Pimpin" I don't know if I can agree with you.
They have a flow but so does Lord Have Mercy: who the fuck wants to
hear him?
> > I somewhat agree with this. For every Mobb Deep you've got Capone and
> > Noriega..
> I'm not really sure what the argument is, nor would I buy into
> it anyway. I like OutKast just as much as I like Pharcyde, and
> Bushwick Bill just as much as I do Erick Sermon.
You misunderstood me. Kari Orr said that just like you have a thousand
Detriots Most Wanted,you also have respected Hip Hop groups that are
equally generic.
Latryx would be another bullshit album like PM Dawn.
>
PM Dawn's lyrics were quite frankly, "Plastic." Latyrx lyrics are
> intricate, well thought out, and placed on slamming beats.
"Righteous I might just never even quit,only to the will of Allah I
submit....only to the will of Jah will I submit"
"sick with poli-tricks and politicians,acting bent mission,for the
annilihilation,death-a-nation for the Human nation"
Sounds plastic,dime-a-dozen Birkenstock P.M. Dawn.Generic. They should
do Fruitopia adds or a song with Rage Against the Machine... One thing
I'll say is that they can Free style.
I think the average southerner still likes
> > EPMD,Rakim and Slick Rick. If they came out today these guys would be
> > considered "bustas"
>
> He likes it, but they would be considered bustas?
You misunderstood me again. My point was that New Yorkers are
considered bustas here. But there was a time that they were'nt.
>
> I'm still waiting on my copy of "Behold a Pale Horse" to see whether
Its interesting. But I can't consider someone a great mind if his
whole career is based on the book.
And in fairness,
> there are some good songs on the Tru album - but like Wu-Tang Forever
> I think it's bloated, overhyped, and definitely weak in a lot of places.
I would have to say WU Tang Forever is far superior to TRu. i hate WU
bashers as much as I hate Wu-fanatics. Wu are hippocrates,and over
hyped. But they also put out the best album yet this year. Funcrusher
Plus might have outdone it but there are only like 6 new songs and a
remix on it. Plus you can hear a RZA influence on it.
> To bring the analogy back to hip-hop, cheap isn't always necessarily
> BAD. There are things I like on the radio: Will Smith, LL Cool J,
> etc. That doesn't mean that you can't acquire a taste for better
> hip-hop, but it is definitely elitist to just dismiss James Todd Smith
> just because he's cheap and free.
I would'nt dismiss LL Cool J or the Fresh Prince for being on the
radio. I would dismiss them for having really wak songs. I did'nt hate
Busta for having "Woo-Hah" in radio rotation.
My point with the beer was'nt more expensive makes it better. You
misunderstood me again. My point was that people can have high quality
for the same price as Budweiser. Meaning in your record store Puff
Daddy and the Liks are close to the same price. So why would you buy
an inferior product for the same price?
You misunderstood much of what I said. Next time I'll try to make it
clearer.
ANON
Wise Rebel
In article <3412ED...@pobox.com>, Steve 'Flash' Juon
<dj.f...@pobox.com> writes:
>
>Actually, I'll give Eightball and MJG credit for being good lyricists.
>Don't front. Listen to "In the Wind", "Listen to Me Now", "Space Age
>Pimpin", etc. etc. They may be playaz but they rise above the
>mediocrity of most playalistic rappers from the South and actually
>kick interesting concepts with good flows.
>
>
I really dislike 8 ball and MJG, mostly because of the beats and content.
But I may be sleeping on them by judging them only by their videos.
Because ever since I heard thier track on the Rhyme and Reason
soundtrack I have more respect for them and have been meaning to try
to check out more of their material. I really felt that cut. I saw their ads
in the source and it looked like they are trying to be conceptual with the
confederate flags and all.
Wise one
If you pissed off you dying with your dick in your hands. - Ras Kass
quest19...@webtv.net
--WebTV-Mail-1716812507-1387
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
I personally think that there's no such thing as an ideology like
that--just the way
certain crews see things, and as a result, we the fans, listeners, and
party-goers just piggy-back off that. When Run-DMC
had that hard, b-boy stance--fans copied.
When NWA was hot, everyone went from
the African medallions(which was kicked
by the positive rap acts) to F the police--go figure. And today, Jay
Z.(for instance) kicks the cristal thing, and the headz goin' broke to
have that and the Lex that they know they can't afford--go figure.
Any ideology has certain tenets or laws, and I don't see that in hip
hop. We make our laws(hip hop ones, that is) based on what's bangin'
right now--because people are just fickle like that. And even if we had
an ideology, how many headz would adhere to the laws, who would keep
them sacred, and most importantly, who would we charge to write
them---go figure.
PEACE!
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Spirit68
>in essence, you don't need white folks to make money,
>you can make a lot of money just by surviving on the
>black audience.
Unfortunately, the majority of artists who are 'ghetto gold' focus mainly
on negative aspects of black life. Do you think master P could make an
entire album like his interviews, i.e. solely about his strong work ethic
and belief in God? I don't believe so. I believe P is sucessful because he
feeds into black self-hatred, manifested through a glorification of black
murder and narcotics trafficking, basically an obsession with death. Comments?
Spirit
Spirit68
>You can't make a dance album with Rakim level of lyrics, because
>people will be too busy thinking to dance (didn't I say that before?).
WHOA. Put on the brakes. Rakim songs turn out the party like nothing else.
I have seen people running for the dance floor when a Rakim song comes on.
I think if you lace an MC with a phat track, people will dance to it no
matter what that MC is saying. A good hook helps, too.
Say what you will, but I still think "If I Ruled the World" was a
respectably well written piece of lyricism. I don't think good lyrics =
nondancable by any means. People dance to beats, now words.
Peace,
Spirit
archangel
In article <19970913034...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, spir...@aol.com
says...
>Unfortunately, the majority of artists who are 'ghetto gold' focus mainly
>on negative aspects of black life. Do you think master P could make an
>entire album like his interviews, i.e. solely about his strong work ethic
>and belief in God? I don't believe so. I believe P is sucessful because he
>feeds into black self-hatred, manifested through a glorification of black
>murder and narcotics trafficking, basically an obsession with death. Comments?
>
>Spirit
so the people love the crime stories and sex raps.
And with the lack of popularity of the "gospel gangstas"
maybe the real question is why are our people in love with
death in the first place?
Steve 'Flash' Juon
Spirit68 wrote:
>
> >You can't make a dance album with Rakim level of lyrics, because
> >people will be too busy thinking to dance (didn't I say that before?).
>
> WHOA. Put on the brakes. Rakim songs turn out the party like nothing else.
> I have seen people running for the dance floor when a Rakim song comes on.
> I think if you lace an MC with a phat track, people will dance to it no
> matter what that MC is saying. A good hook helps, too.
Isn't that exactly my point Spirit? Beats rule, lyrics come second.
That's the philosophy of any dance song in the 90's -- it doesn't
matter if the lyrics are good or not so long as you can dance to it.
Jonathan Dean Ripp
archangel (or...@weiss.che.utexas.edu) wrote:
: maybe the real question is why are our people in love with
: death in the first place?
I think people love to deal with death is because its the great unknown.
Everything on earth we try to decifer using philosophy, psychiatry and
science but no one can explain what happens after we die. So, some choose
to dwell on it while others choose to ignore it completely.
But I don't think the popularity of gangsta rap stems from our love of
death. I believe its more the power trip one gets from hearing some g
bust a cap cap in a lesser man. It gives you the sense that you are
bigger than others, that they are weak and you are strong. Who would you
rather be, Tommy DeVito or Spider in Goodfellas? I didn't cry when spider
got wacked, I laughed. I see people listen to Wu-Tang, Tupac, and Biggie
all day long and they think that makes them hard. Gangsters aren't making
Master P, Wu, or Biggie reach the top of the charts, its just some kids
who want some shit to bump in their ride or make them look hard. Most
don't understand the true impact of that music.
Ripp
Spirit68
>
>Belongs to black people? Black people don't own hip hop, certain blacks
>are part of the culture, but it doesn't belong to "blacks". Some may
>argue that the black community as a whole has shunned "hip hop".
The VAST majority of hip-hop practicioners are BLACK, straight up and
down. The primary supporter of most rap music (that means before MTV and
Top 40 radio catches on) is the urban (read: black) audience. Bone, Biggie,
Tupac, et al all started with large black audiences then expanded to mostly
white audiences.
As far as the majority of artists with midlevel (gold and below) audiences
goes, say Spice 1 for example, I would argue find support primarily among
blacks. I'm not certain how what the racial makeup of the lyrical
underground (Ras Kass, Co Flow) is, but my experience tells me that whites
may have the majority there like they do in the mainstream. It's an odd
situation, a paradox almost.
Midlevel gangsta rap (Eiht, Spice 1, the non-double platinum kids) and
midlevel lyricists (i.e. guys who use similes and metaphors but don't get
too esoteric, like the Liks) IMO remain supported by an urban fan base.
Then again, the Liks were on the Warped Tour with a bunch of surfers (okay,
that was politically incorrect, but you get my point).
In any case, I still think that as long as black people remain the
overwhelming majority of practicioners, we get the moral right to decide
where the culture goes. It's our art, which we create. Anyone here disagree
with an artist's intrinsic right to control what he/she creates?
Peace,
Spirit
Spirit68
> I like OutKast just as much as I like Pharcyde, and
>Bushwick Bill just as much as I do Erick Sermon.
>
You like Bushwick Bill? Him and Erick Sermon put out some of the most
lyrically weak solo albums of this decade.
Peace,
Spirit
Spirit68
>Isn't that exactly my point Spirit? Beats rule, lyrics come second.
Well, maybe I was disagreeing with how you said it. it came across as a
dis to Rakim's ability to rock a party, which I think he has in abundance,
particularly in the old records, but also in his new single "It's Been a
Long Time".
>That's the philosophy of any dance song in the 90's -- it doesn't
>matter if the lyrics are good or not so long as you can dance to it.
Actually, I disagree. Lyrics in dance songs are at an all time high.
Compare Biggie's verse on "The Benjamins" to any Hammer tune from 91-92.
Progression has occured that is easy to see. The unfortunate thing is
people are finding new ways to say the same garbage. The lyrics can be
witty, but the content is shitty.
Peace,
Spirit
Spirit68
>This brings us back to when Kari asked do you want 10 year old kids
>quoting EL-P?
Hell, yeah! Do you know how high the average SAT score on verbals would go
up if we started every 10 year old in America listening to Co Flow right now?
Peace,
Spirit
T. Tauri
Spirit68 wrote:
> In any case, I still think that as long as black people remain the
> overwhelming majority of practicioners, we get the moral right to
> decide where the culture goes. It's our art, which we create. Anyone
> here disagree with an artist's intrinsic right to control what he/
> she creates?
- DJs took five second beats, made 'em repeat, and then spread across
the Triboro (to quote Diamond). And plenty of artists who were used to
create hip-hop through cutting breaks and sampling didn't feel that they
ought to have been, didn't appreciate what had been done to their music.
Where was the right to control what they created then? Where ought it
have been?
Not disagreeing with you. But audiences also have rights to interpret,
misinterpret, respond to that art with certain licenses as well: where
do you draw the line between them? I don't think it's always easy to
tell.
And are rights ever intrinsic?
Peece,
T. Tauri
Spirit68
>When NWA was hot, everyone went from
>the African medallions(which was kicked
>by the positive rap acts) to F the police--go figure.
I know people who *still* wear African beads and continue to remain
anti-police (although not in NWA's trademark profane way). It is very easy
to be Afrocentric and anti-police.
>And today, Jay
>Z.(for instance) kicks the cristal thing, and the headz goin' broke to
>have that and the Lex that they know they can't afford--go figure.
I don't know one person who bought a Lexus because they heard Jay Z. Now,
Cristal, yeah Jay and Puff made that popular, but Lexuses were hot before
either of those kids had solo albums out.
Peace,
Spirit
Spirit68
>"Righteous I might just never even quit,only to the will of Allah I
>submit....only to the will of Jah will I submit"
>Sounds plastic,dime-a-dozen Birkenstock P.M. Dawn.Generic.
Dime a dozen? I hardly think that being humble before your God is an
overused concept in hip-hop. In fact, I don't think it's used enough.
Peace,
Spirit
Steve 'Flash' Juon
Spirit68 wrote:
>
> > I like OutKast just as much as I like Pharcyde, and
> >Bushwick Bill just as much as I do Erick Sermon.
> >
>
> lyrically weak solo albums of this decade.
>
> Peace,
>
> Spirit
Hey, I didn't say everybody was gonna agree with my taste - but quite
frankly I think "No Pressure" and "Phantom of the Rapra" are both
works of genius. "Double or Nothing" and "Little Big Man" on the
other hand...
KSG
Spirit68 wrote:
>
> >
> >Belongs to black people? Black people don't own hip hop, certain blacks
> >are part of the culture, but it doesn't belong to "blacks". Some may
> >argue that the black community as a whole has shunned "hip hop".
> In any case, I still think that as long as black people remain the
> overwhelming majority of practicioners, we get the moral right to decide
> where the culture goes. It's our art, which we create. Anyone here disagree
> with an artist's intrinsic right to control what he/she creates?
But what does "we" mean? Is Clarence Thomas part of the we? Is Ward
Connerly? Am I? Who is creating the art, the artist or the race? If
the artists wanted to rap about something that the black people didn't
support who should win out?
Jeff Goldman
Steve 'Flash' Juon wrote:
> Hey, I didn't say everybody was gonna agree with my taste - but
> quite frankly I think "No Pressure" and "Phantom of the Rapra" are
> both works of genius. "Double or Nothing" and "Little Big Man" on
> the other hand...
I only bothered to listen to it recently, but I actually like _Double or
Nothing_ now. Not a work of genius (I wouldn't say _No Pressure_ was
either), but decent enough.
Peece,
T. Tauri
StoryOfEye
Caution: long post. Don't bother reading if you don't have patience
KGatlin, you need to check your heuristics. No, Clarence Thomas and Ward
Connerly are not part of the "we" of hip-hop because they do not support
hip hop. Your other questions make absolutely no sense. Black people
started this culture and we will be the ones to phase it out, which I don't
think will ever happen. Hip-hop affects mainstream society in myriad ways.
It affects advertising and has actually brought advertising back to the
days of catchy slogans, jingles, explosive coloration & motion and
story-telling hard core. It affects fashion and style as we know it. It has
infiltrated other art forms. It has no doubt affected academia because many
journals are now focusing on hip hop and the repercussions of its internal
paradigm shifts and ways it has made pop culture ponder its "otherness."
Graf writing, DJing and breakdancing continue to get some type of elevation
through various subcultures. Make no mistake, though, black people gave the
masses a contract and we are the only ones who can be accused of
"breaching" it. Please give credit where credit is due. Yes, whites, and
especially filipinos and latinos, deserve credit for doing their part,
which is only understandable since hip-hop is the only form of readily
available music that's linked inextricably to the zeitgeist. We not only
define the spirit, but are able to move on when a certain discourse loses
its relevance (example, gangster). True enough, anybody can listen to the
music and experience the culture, but there is a difference between
"visiting" or even "appreciating" a culture and living, breathing, and
drinking it [BTW, I think non-blacks can do more than experience it, but
not on a mass level]. Black people have been through so much in this
society. Why is it that people grudgingly give credit to us for being the
progenitors of rock and roll, soul, jazz, hip-hop, folk, techno, jungle,
reggae and too many other genres to mention? Cultural pluralism is a
reality, but at least recognize who started and who's sustaining this. If
it were just about the "benjamins," which it's not, you might have an
argument. However, hip hop has transcended even capitalist hegemonic
structures. Hip hop is best viewed as a continuum. It's more than just a
way of life, for many, it is life. Sometimes I think multiculturalism is
just another way of vaunting rhetoric high above practice and theory. I
guess I can break it down in a more personal way. I am an aspiring DJ. I go
digging like any would be producer or DJ should. Now, when I also buy vinyl
from personal collections, I can't get to the rare groove and jazz boxes
for all the non-black peeps who are combing through the boxes. I have no
problem with this whatsoever; I'm all for other peeps recognizing we are
the ultimate soul masters. The more the merrier. However, ask yourself who
created this music they are foraging and scavenging for? Who produced it?
Who's selling it that has lived through the culture before it infiltrated
the mainstream? Who remembers what life was like in the 70s for blacks and
how this started cultural discourses like "It's all about Macking," "It's
all about Chilling," "It's all about leaving agitprop alone and grooving,"
"or it's all about the copacetic sounds," "it's all about celebrating
blackness through afrocentricity and afros" "or it's all about intelligence
and knowledge of self"? (sorry for the long-winded ?) As far as I can tell,
these discourses are still relevant. Now if other peeps wish to appropriate
so they can feel better about living in this discombobulated, corrupted
environment, fine. I hope I'm not confusing or alienating anyone with my
post. Please don't get defensive or take it personally. Cheers.
I'll give examples of each discourse:
1. Macking
a. Kool Keith
b. too many from the 80s
3. Lightnin Rod from the 1970s
2. Chilling
a. ATCQ
b. One of my local examples, K-Otix
c. Leroy Hutson from the 1970s, 9th Creation
3. Post agitprop groove
a. Eric B & Rakim
b. Sugar Hill gang, Funky four + 1
c. the JB's (the old one)
d. Godfather Don
e. The "Soul Train" show
4. Copacetic sounds
a. The Roots
b. Digable Planets
c. Stetsasonic
d. Ultramagnetic MCs
e. Natural Resources
f. Pete Rock & CL Smooth
g. Ramelzee Vs. K Rob
h. Munk from Philly
i. Funk, Inc.
5. Afrocentricity/afros
a. Poor Righteous Teachers/Wise Intelligent
b. Public Enemy
c. BDP
d. Arrested Development
e. Last Poets, Watts Prophets...
f. Jessica "care" Moore
Intelligence/Knowledge of Self
Obviously there is some overlap between categories
a. Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy
b. Broun Fellinis
c. Peeps, there are just too many to mention
All of this is off the top of my head, so if you don't like my choices,
that's tough
Kang Su Gatlin
StoryOfEye wrote:
>
> Caution: long post. Don't bother reading if you don't have patience
>
> KGatlin, you need to check your heuristics. No, Clarence Thomas and Ward
> Connerly are not part of the "we" of hip-hop because they do not support
> hip hop. Your other questions make absolutely no sense.
Check my heuristics? Is this new slang? Well anyways...
Did you read the post in which I was responding to? Let me quote:
"I still think that as long as black people remain the overwhelming
majority of practicioners, we get the moral right to decide where the
culture goes."
There was no mention of blacks that are active in hip hop. No if you
read my point you can see the distinction that I am making is between
the notion that blacks as a group control hip hop versus the artists
controlling their art.
> Black people
> started this culture and we will be the ones to phase it out, which I don't
> think will ever happen.
Again, who is in the "we"? You have come no closer to answering my
question. Do all blacks share equal "ownership" of the culture?
> Make no mistake, though, black people gave the
> masses a contract and we are the only ones who can be accused of
> "breaching" it. Please give credit where credit is due.
Give who credit? Who made this contract?
> Yes, whites, and
> especially filipinos and latinos, deserve credit for doing their part,
> which is only understandable since hip-hop is the only form of readily
> available music that's linked inextricably to the zeitgeist. We not only
> define the spirit, but are able to move on when a certain discourse loses
> its relevance (example, gangster). True enough, anybody can listen to the
> music and experience the culture, but there is a difference between
> "visiting" or even "appreciating" a culture and living, breathing, and
> drinking it [BTW, I think non-blacks can do more than experience it, but
> not on a mass level].
What makes you think blacks can do more than experience hip hop on a
mass scale? It certainly isn't the case in '97.
> Black people have been through so much in this
> society. Why is it that people grudgingly give credit to us for being the
> progenitors of rock and roll, soul, jazz, hip-hop, folk, techno, jungle,
> reggae and too many other genres to mention?
Most historians of music readily give much credit to African Americans
for rock, soul, jazz, gospel, hip hop. Don't know too much about Reggae
(in terms of history), and hopefully they will give someone else
"credit" for techno and jungle.
> Cultural pluralism is a
> reality, but at least recognize who started and who's sustaining this. If
> it were just about the "benjamins," which it's not, you might have an
> argument.
Why is it that dominant forces in hip hop seem to be motivated by
money? But besides that, what did that have to do with my argument? My
only argument was that hip hop belongs to its participants and not any
race.
> However, hip hop has transcended even capitalist hegemonic
> structures. Hip hop is best viewed as a continuum. It's more than just a
> way of life, for many, it is life.
I think many would be an overstatement.
> As far as I can tell,
> these discourses are still relevant. Now if other peeps wish to appropriate
> so they can feel better about living in this discombobulated, corrupted
> environment, fine. I hope I'm not confusing or alienating anyone with my
> post. Please don't get defensive or take it personally. Cheers.
Of course I don't take it personal, but I don't think I really
understand this last paragraph in the context of my post.
Let me reiterate, again, my point. You (and others) seem to believe
that hip hop belongs to blacks. My question though is it all blacks who
are entitled to this ownership? Why is it that blacks control this
culture, what aspects of this culture (that are disjoint from black
culture) preclude the inclusion of other ethnicities. Furthermore, if
not all blacks share equally in this culture, can you explain why? Why
does your opinion seem to be more valued than mine, or Clarence Thomas',
or KRS-1's, or Chuck D's?
If these question still make "absolutely no sense" to you, simply "move
on". No offense will be taken.
--
>> KSG <<
quest19...@webtv.net
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Spirit, I see that your passion, as well as intellect for hip hop is
deep. But the hard truth is there is no such thing as a "hip hop
ideology"---it's ONLY how you see it.
Chuck D. has a new book out, and even he concedes to how rock and
alternative bands, with respect to revenue, blows us out of the water.
When any of us goes platinum(with the advent of the bootleg tape)more
often than not, the whites put us there. Remember, there is no black
Billboard---one of the vehicles that really get you out there. That's
not to say we are aren't part of the consuming public(too much so,
really), but until we(blacks)get into to positions of owning---not
having a label and it being DISTRUBUTED by a major one, then will you
start to see a change. The only real ideology is to not sell out to the
powers that be.
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OverTIME
In article <5vhu7m$g0u$3...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, or...@weiss.che.utexas.edu
(archangel) wrote:
> In article <19970913034...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, spir...@aol.com
> says...
>
> >Unfortunately, the majority of artists who are 'ghetto gold' focus mainly
> >on negative aspects of black life. Do you think master P could make an
> >entire album like his interviews, i.e. solely about his strong work ethic
> >and belief in God? I don't believe so. I believe P is sucessful because he
> >feeds into black self-hatred, manifested through a glorification of black
> >murder and narcotics trafficking, basically an obsession with death.
Comments?
> >
> >Spirit
I'm sure he could if that's whut he wanted.
Sons of Funk is the first of the R&B groups on No Limit comin out.
He already has a following of supporters that have been there for YEARZ.
Master P aint obsessed wit death, he's obsessed with power, i.e. Output
Energy
Power = ______
TIME
He puts the same time & energy that he put into sellin dope into sellin music.
He did SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE.
Master P is successful becuz he is young, Black, and OWNS his own entire
production studio that is totally paid for. All he has to do iz find
artists who want to PUT IN WORK and record the tracks. No Limit aint
totally independent anymore he is on PRIORITY (The original title of his
new lp wuz Ghetto Dope not D) but P does CONTROL its CREATIVE output. No
Limit also has its OWN video production studios. People forget that these
are outlets for SOMEONE's creativity. And it DOES give people jobs and
often something CONSTRUCTIVE to do with their TIME.
Becuz othawize, you are suggesting that We as a people are self-hatin by
supporting Master P. Master P can rap about drug trafficking and murder
all day, THAT's not whut's makin the actual acts occur.
There is drug trafficking and murder on television erenight, its called
the EVENING NEWS, and its been that way since long before Master P even
EXISTED.
And guess who's STARRING as the 'Bad Guy' 99.9% of the TIME?
THIS is the most IMPORTANT thang that i have come to OVERSTAND bout Master P
(& Puff Daddy for that matter)
I realized this over the summer when i went down to the Golden Triangle.
I kicked it in Beaumont and Port Arthur. Me, one of my potnaz ' lil
brothaz & his homeboyz (they are all teenage/young adults) were sittin
around shootin the shit.
They ALL said that it made them FEEL GOOD to actually *see* a Young Black
Man (Master P & Puff) doin GOOD. It gave them ASPIRATION. Cuz if Master P
can make it, they knew they could TOO.
This wuz something that they had NEVA even really SEEN before outside of
professional athletes.
Master P supplies POWER.
Power fuels MOTIVATION.
At this point I saw the Darkness in the Light....the Loud Silence.
"I know the SOUL of the GAME,
dat's why they caint INFILTRATE my Brain." --Skull Dugrey
> so the people love the crime stories and sex raps.
> And with the lack of popularity of the "gospel gangstas"
> maybe the real question is why are our people in love with
> death in the first place?
>
> k. orr
> house of phat beats
The people aint in love with DEATH, alot of the people are trapped in a
socio-economic state that makes many have the attitude of "I dont give a
Fuck!"
Cuz if you aint got nothin, you also aint got nothin to LOSE. (except Life)
They have little to no CONTROL of their own EXISTENCE.
They are POWERLESS.
Most fail to realize that there are many, many of the people in the
TRAPPINGZ of poverty, i.e. the GETO.
Its easy to forget bout it or overlook if that's not how you live or once did.
I'm talkin bout kidz who grow up in hulled out hoodz. Who actually witness
DEATH first hand often before they are even teen-agers.
Who's parents aint much older than them, and who basically are makin
ADULT decisions as CHILDREN. Of course they are goin to make the wrong
decisions!
They have NO GUIDANCE.
Remember maine, you grew up in a nuturing enviroment, alot of kidz dont.
*THEIR* parents are the DOPE FIENDS or DEALERZ that HAUNT the streetz at
night in the DARKNESS. (You KNOW I aint finished wit that one Blood...i
went DEEP own this one too, see me in the LOUD SILENCE... a WitchDoctor
Shango clangin hammer 2 chisel)
Or are runnin out to the club before their kidz, layin down to pay the RENT.
Or are lock'd down or dead.
Its kinda like at the end of Tales from the Hood,
how Krazy K wuz screaming in his OWN Blood, "I Don't Give a Fuck!! I
don't give a Fuck!!..."
This is half of the argument that the government is using to present its
case against the young Black Man, or 'Superpredator' in the eyes of the
Demon:
example-
WAR IN THE CAPITAL: In our nation's capital, nearly
50% of black men between 18-35 are under criminal
justice supervision.
http://www.drcnet.org/rapid/1997/9-12-1.html#capitalwar
I call it the LOUD SILENCE. It has ALREADY been written.
That is why We were summoned here to rmhh:
To reshape the Energy so that We have CONTROL of the Output.
I can name PLENTY of positive thangs that Master P has done on record.
Just reply, i'll be glad to give My perspective.
Master P got RICH potraying the VILLAIN (The OUTKAST 2 'headz')
Just how Al Pacino character did in the movie, 'SCARFACE'.
Hip-hop culture NEEDS & WANTS a VILLAIN to blame all its problems on too.
Enter Master P.
The man who iz successful beyond the HATE.
Hip-hop is like a MICROCOSM of the AmeriKKKan MACROCOSM from the
villain/scapegoat's perspective.
AmeriKKKan society & culture has alwayz THRIVED off of the VILLAIN becuz
it iz a REFLECTION of the ones that CREATED her. (In mo wayz than ONE)
They told their OWN tale.
In a LOT more wayz than most folkz want to BELIEVE.
Stay Tuned & Stay UP!!
--OverTIME
P.S.: And Yes, villains wearin BLACK aint by coincidence....i have PROOF
4REAL. (tm)
-----------
The Qur`an states in chapter 20, verse 55, "From the earth did We
Create you, and into it Shall We return you, and from it shall We bring
you out once again."
Even more pointedly, the Qur'an also states in 64:7,20
The Unbelievers think that they will not be RAI$ED UP!! (for Judgement).
Say: "Yea, by my Lord, Ye shall surely be RAI$ED UP: then shall ye Be
told (the truth) of All that ye did.
And that is easy for Allah."
**This document, was created using EBONICSv2.0 by:
--OverTIME, "Comin' Down...DEEP...& DIRTY from dat SOUTH!!!!"
9-23-97, "You STILL rattlin' dem BONES?"
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________________________________________________________________________________
>Project South:
>Institute for the Elimination
>of Poverty & Genocide
>9 Gammon Avenue
>Atlanta, GA 30315
>
>Tel. (404) 622-0602
>Fax (404) 622-7992
>http://www.peacenet.org/projectsouth/
________________________________________________________________________________
Eroul C.
rai...@swbell.net (OverTIME) wrote:
another nice speech.
Stay up playa,
Eroul C.
ps. in short:
I know a lot of you don't like P because he is "in it for the money".
But would you rather he stuck to selling dope instead?
Don't y'all think he took a change for the better and helps his
"fellow-ghetto-potnas" making cream the legal way?
And for the people saying "I don't want to listen to some guy spouting
all that 'slanging yeyo' and 'busting caps' shit", I guess you never
watch a good movie like Carlito's Way, American Me or anything else
violent, right?
At least this shit is real, and I think the world SHOULD hear this
shit. It's a good reminder for people who tend to think we're doing ok
in our society. We're NOT.
Okay, I don't know, maybe he can't rap worth shit, but check his
potnaz, there ARE some dope rhymers on No-Limit.
A message from my man B-Bart: "Y'all are making a BIG mistake".