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Question about Parole process
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Willie
Jul 2, 2019, 10:44:53 AM7/2/19
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I just finished watching the (powerful) Netflix four-part series on the 1989 Central Park jogger and the five youths set up to take the fall for it, "When They See Us." In one scene, Korey Wise, who spent 12 years in Attica and other horrific prisons before being released when Matias Reyes confessed to the crime, is in front of the Parole Board, seeking parole. They ask him, "Do you admit your guilt?" When he says, No, they deny him parole. Is that standard procedure, that one won't get parole without admitting (via signature) one's guilt? What kind of messed up practice is that? What is the reasoning behind it?
Incidentally, I'd forgotten that Trump took out full page ads calling for the death penalty for all these kids. In one video clip in the series, he is shown in an interview saying something like, "I think blacks today have an advantage over whites. I wish I were a black today, with all those advantages."
Incidentally, I'd forgotten that Trump took out full page ads calling for the death penalty for all these kids. In one video clip in the series, he is shown in an interview saying something like, "I think blacks today have an advantage over whites. I wish I were a black today, with all those advantages."
Grave Digger
Jul 2, 2019, 11:30:23 AM7/2/19
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On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 at 10:44:53 AM UTC-4, Willie wrote:
> I just finished watching the (powerful) Netflix four-part series on the 1989 Central Park jogger and the five youths set up to take the fall for it, "When They See Us." In one scene, Korey Wise, who spent 12 years in Attica and other horrific prisons before being released when Matias Reyes confessed to the crime, is in front of the Parole Board, seeking parole. They ask him, "Do you admit your guilt?" When he says, No, they deny him parole. Is that standard procedure, that one won't get parole without admitting (via signature) one's guilt? What kind of messed up practice is that? What is the reasoning behind it?
>
> Incidentally, I'd forgotten that Trump took out full page ads calling for the death penalty for all these kids. In one video clip in the series, he is shown in an interview saying something like, "I think blacks today have an advantage over whites. I wish I were a black today, with all those advantages."
====
> I just finished watching the (powerful) Netflix four-part series on the 1989 Central Park jogger and the five youths set up to take the fall for it, "When They See Us." In one scene, Korey Wise, who spent 12 years in Attica and other horrific prisons before being released when Matias Reyes confessed to the crime, is in front of the Parole Board, seeking parole. They ask him, "Do you admit your guilt?" When he says, No, they deny him parole. Is that standard procedure, that one won't get parole without admitting (via signature) one's guilt? What kind of messed up practice is that? What is the reasoning behind it?
>
> Incidentally, I'd forgotten that Trump took out full page ads calling for the death penalty for all these kids. In one video clip in the series, he is shown in an interview saying something like, "I think blacks today have an advantage over whites. I wish I were a black today, with all those advantages."
i think he was sentenced 5 to fifteen years. So he would be up for parole in 5.
Was this the 5 year parole hearing?
Haven't watched it yet...I must soon
earl.bro...@gmail.com
Jul 2, 2019, 11:58:51 AM7/2/19
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On Tuesday, 2 July 2019 10:44:53 UTC-4, Willie wrote:
> I just finished watching the (powerful) Netflix four-part series on the 1989 Central Park jogger and the five youths set up to take the fall for it, "When They See Us." In one scene, Korey Wise, who spent 12 years in Attica and other horrific prisons before being released when Matias Reyes confessed to the crime, is in front of the Parole Board, seeking parole. They ask him, "Do you admit your guilt?" When he says, No, they deny him parole. Is that standard procedure, that one won't get parole without admitting (via signature) one's guilt? What kind of messed up practice is that? What is the reasoning behind it?
>
> Incidentally, I'd forgotten that Trump took out full page ads calling for the death penalty for all these kids. In one video clip in the series, he is shown in an interview saying something like, "I think blacks today have an advantage over whites. I wish I were a black today, with all those advantages."
https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/11/13/parole-when-innocence-is-claimed
> I just finished watching the (powerful) Netflix four-part series on the 1989 Central Park jogger and the five youths set up to take the fall for it, "When They See Us." In one scene, Korey Wise, who spent 12 years in Attica and other horrific prisons before being released when Matias Reyes confessed to the crime, is in front of the Parole Board, seeking parole. They ask him, "Do you admit your guilt?" When he says, No, they deny him parole. Is that standard procedure, that one won't get parole without admitting (via signature) one's guilt? What kind of messed up practice is that? What is the reasoning behind it?
>
> Incidentally, I'd forgotten that Trump took out full page ads calling for the death penalty for all these kids. In one video clip in the series, he is shown in an interview saying something like, "I think blacks today have an advantage over whites. I wish I were a black today, with all those advantages."
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2017/dec/14/california-court-appeals-vacates-parole-denial-claiming-innocence/
President_dudley
Jul 2, 2019, 4:25:32 PM7/2/19
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Just one aside: am i correct in thinking that conditions of parole, if not parole itself, vary by state?
earl.bro...@gmail.com
Jul 2, 2019, 5:37:19 PM7/2/19
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In addition to varying from state to state, parole decisions also vary from parole board member to parole board member, depending upon the way they weight the various factors that are used to decide who should and who should not receive parole.
Because parole is considered a privilege and not a constitutional right, courts have been reluctant to intervene on this matter. But the 2017 California decision may prompt more state high courts, and perhaps even the US Supreme Court, to involve themselves in policing the state and federal parole systems.
General Zod
Jul 2, 2019, 8:52:43 PM7/2/19
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On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 at 10:44:53 AM UTC-4, Willie wrote:
> I just finished watching the (powerful) Netflix four-part series on the 1989 Central Park jogger and the five youths set up to take the fall for it, "When They See Us." In one scene, Korey Wise, who spent 12 years in Attica and other horrific prisons before being released when Matias Reyes confessed to the crime, is in front of the Parole Board, seeking parole. They ask him, "Do you admit your guilt?" When he says, No, they deny him parole. Is that standard procedure, that one won't get parole without admitting (via signature) one's guilt? What kind of messed up practice is that? What is the reasoning behind it?
>
> Incidentally, I'd forgotten that Trump took out full page ads calling for the death penalty for all these kids. In one video clip in the series, he is shown in an interview saying something like, "I think blacks today have an advantage over whites. I wish I were a black today, with all those advantages."
Interesting questions.....
>
> Incidentally, I'd forgotten that Trump took out full page ads calling for the death penalty for all these kids. In one video clip in the series, he is shown in an interview saying something like, "I think blacks today have an advantage over whites. I wish I were a black today, with all those advantages."
Willie
Jul 2, 2019, 9:51:00 PM7/2/19
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On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 at 11:58:51 AM UTC-4, earl.br...@gmail.com wrote:
"Inmates should ordinarily be expected to admit guilt before being granted parole because understanding that you've done something wrong is the first, and an essential, step toward rehabilitation. That premise is undermined if the prospective parolee continues to maintain that the only error lay within the system, not within himself. Such thinking is the breeding ground of resentment and self-justification, which in turn are the breeding grounds for disregard of the law."
I don't buy that. I don't see how maintaining your claim of innocence (even if you are guilty) affects how rehabilitated you are (setting aside the argument that some prisoners *are* innocent). I suppose the argument would go that if you don't admit guilt, you will come out full of rage at the injustice, and would therefore pose a threat.
Instead, you come out having signed off on your guilt, but trying to get a job and rejoin society. Is that paper available to prospective employers? Schools?
I don't get it. Who came up with such an idea? Have psychologists weighed in on this?
earl.bro...@gmail.com
Jul 2, 2019, 11:25:18 PM7/2/19
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On Tuesday, 2 July 2019 21:51:00 UTC-4, Willie wrote:
>
> I knew you would come through on this. What I'm wrestling with is what *the rationale* is for requiring the prisoner to admit guilt (and in the series, I think they shoved a paper and pen over to Korey Wise for him to sign). I don't see that rationale in the articles themselves, but one of the commentators wrote:
>
> "Inmates should ordinarily be expected to admit guilt before being granted parole because understanding that you've done something wrong is the first, and an essential, step toward rehabilitation. That premise is undermined if the prospective parolee continues to maintain that the only error lay within the system, not within himself. Such thinking is the breeding ground of resentment and self-justification, which in turn are the breeding grounds for disregard of the law."
>
> I don't buy that. I don't see how maintaining your claim of innocence (even if you are guilty) affects how rehabilitated you are (setting aside the argument that some prisoners *are* innocent). I suppose the argument would go that if you don't admit guilt, you will come out full of rage at the injustice, and would therefore pose a threat.
>
> Instead, you come out having signed off on your guilt, but trying to get a job and rejoin society. Is that paper available to prospective employers? Schools?
>
> I don't get it. Who came up with such an idea? Have psychologists weighed in on this?
The idea that "Confession is good for the soul" originates from the 19th century and over the years probably has been said by many parents to their children. Ridding oneself of guilt has always been regarded as a vital element in living a healthy, productive life.
>
> I knew you would come through on this. What I'm wrestling with is what *the rationale* is for requiring the prisoner to admit guilt (and in the series, I think they shoved a paper and pen over to Korey Wise for him to sign). I don't see that rationale in the articles themselves, but one of the commentators wrote:
>
> "Inmates should ordinarily be expected to admit guilt before being granted parole because understanding that you've done something wrong is the first, and an essential, step toward rehabilitation. That premise is undermined if the prospective parolee continues to maintain that the only error lay within the system, not within himself. Such thinking is the breeding ground of resentment and self-justification, which in turn are the breeding grounds for disregard of the law."
>
> I don't buy that. I don't see how maintaining your claim of innocence (even if you are guilty) affects how rehabilitated you are (setting aside the argument that some prisoners *are* innocent). I suppose the argument would go that if you don't admit guilt, you will come out full of rage at the injustice, and would therefore pose a threat.
>
> Instead, you come out having signed off on your guilt, but trying to get a job and rejoin society. Is that paper available to prospective employers? Schools?
>
> I don't get it. Who came up with such an idea? Have psychologists weighed in on this?
Proverbs 28:13 English Standard Version (ESV)
13 Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper,
but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy.
To this day, Jews celebrate Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement) which mandates confession of all sins committed within the past year, seeking God's forgiveness by repentance, prayer, and charitable acts. Fasting on Yom Kippur remains one of the most widely observed of Jewish religious obligations.
The Roman Catholic church employs confession of sins as one of its major rituals and it's practiced as a way of cleansing souls and claims to make people mentally and spiritually healthier. And of course one of the most famous works of early Catholic literature was "St. Augustine's Confessions," which extolled the healing power of confession and repentance.
Psychoanalysis was another area in which revealing buried, repressed, or hidden truths about oneself were purported to make one happier and more whole. Carl Jung in particular saw psychology and religion as converging in their concern for helping people overcome their guilt by means of confession.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00946349
The Chinese Communists developed "struggle sessions" from the self-criticism sessions used by the Soviet Communist Party in the 1920s. In the 1950s and 1960s in China, people were "forced to admit various crimes before a crowd of people who would verbally and physically abuse the victim until he or she confessed. Struggle sessions were often held at the workplace of the accused, but they were sometimes conducted in sports stadiums where large crowds would gather if the target was well-known."
In the American judicial system, the original goals of imprisonment were deterrence of future crime and retribution against and incapacitation of prisoners. The movement to replace these goals with rehabilitation of the imprisoned began around the 1870s, with the hope that less incarceration (which was even back then an expensive proposition) could become the new norm. In 1876, the New York State Prison at Elmira became the pioneer institution in this effort, positing that rehabilitation could never work without the prisoner's cooperation and that a necessary first step towards achieving such cooperation was the prisoner accepting responsibility for past iniquities and making full and free confession of past misdeeds. There were certainly other ways to demonstrate one's rehabilitation, but the general view at the time was that acceptance of responsibility was a necessary first step. In some ways, that was a precursor of the First Step in Alcoholics Anonymous' 12-step program: acknowledging to oneself and to others that "I'm an alcoholic."
And given the centrality of acknowledging guilt in the entire judicial process (95% of criminal cases don't even go to trial, thanks to plea bargaining, which rewards confessions by reducing or even eliminating prison sentences), it shouldn't surprise us that acknowledging one's guilt continues to play an important role in the parole process, which is essentially, after all, an off-shoot of the initial sentencing process).
You may find of some interest this analysis of the subject of confession from an emeritus professor at your old alma mater:
https://web.williams.edu/Psychology/Faculty/Kassin/IESBS.confess.pdf
Willie
Jul 3, 2019, 2:21:31 PM7/3/19
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After reading and thinking about these materials, the word "confess" certainly for me comes to have a much richer meaning and implication than "admit." To "confess" one's guilt (another loaded word) seems different from to "admit" one's guilt. It seems to have a connotation of realization and vowing to do better. So maybe, in the parole context, it *is* connected to the religious meaning. You write:
"And given the centrality of acknowledging guilt in the entire
judicial process (95% of criminal cases don't even go to trial,
thanks to plea bargaining, which rewards confessions by reducing
or even eliminating prison sentences), it shouldn't surprise us
that acknowledging one's guilt continues to play an important role
in the parole process, which is essentially, after all, an off-shoot
of the initial sentencing process)."
Hello? 95% of criminal cases are plea bargained? I didn't know that. I still think it's a shameful practice, to make a parole contingent on a confession, but if it's because it's supposed to make the parolee thereby absolve his or her sin and move forward, I guess that's better than if it's a judicial covering of the ass.
"And given the centrality of acknowledging guilt in the entire
judicial process (95% of criminal cases don't even go to trial,
thanks to plea bargaining, which rewards confessions by reducing
or even eliminating prison sentences), it shouldn't surprise us
that acknowledging one's guilt continues to play an important role
in the parole process, which is essentially, after all, an off-shoot
of the initial sentencing process)."
One thing that surprised me in the Kassin article is that he referred to gay men as "confessing" their homosexuality, as if that were his own word for it. ("They found that in men who were partly 'in the closet'--compared to those who had openly confessed rather than concealed their homosexuality--the infection spread more rapidly, causing them to die sooner.") I would have written "proclaimed" or "announced" there, not "confessed."
Grave Digger
Jul 3, 2019, 2:39:03 PM7/3/19
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I don't know about the 95%...When you're dealing with an overworked public defender....You gotta do what you gotta do. Having said that...many that take the deal are guilty..but many are not of the crime in question.
Recidivism rate in California is 65% or more....So even if you get out on parole there's a good chance on you returning....and we're not talking about violent crimes.I could go on but I;ll leave it at that.
Grave Digger
Jul 3, 2019, 3:09:41 PM7/3/19
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===
BTW~I did watch it yesterday...And I believe that the injustice done on these young kids is disgraceful. I wish they had focused more on the climate of the time in NYC,The real horror of a place like Attica...and maybe had a little of Mayor Ed Koch.IMO~A prosecutor will never admit when they are WRONG.
Anybody here living in the city at the time?
Earl Browder
Jul 3, 2019, 5:56:11 PM7/3/19
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https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/08/nyregion/jury-trials-vanish-and-justice-is-served-behind-closed-doors.html
President_dudley
Jul 3, 2019, 7:36:48 PM7/3/19
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On Wednesday, July 3, 2019 at 5:56:11 PM UTC-4, Earl Browder wrote:
>
> Almost everyone benefits personally from plea bargaining, not just public defenders. After all, judges and prosecutors would also be swamped if every felon insisted on a jury trial. Taxpayers would have to pay billions more to fund more judges, more prosecutors, and more public defenders and also more prisons to house all the prisoners who would now be serving longer sentences. Guilty felons obviously benefit from the reduced sentences they receive by waiving not just trials, but also all future appeals. Ironically, the only real losers in a system with plea bargaining at its core are the defendants who are truly innocent of having committed the crime they're charged with.
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/08/nyregion/jury-trials-vanish-and-justice-is-served-behind-closed-doors.html
Hey mr "Browder", thanks as ever for your astute observations on such matters.
>
> Almost everyone benefits personally from plea bargaining, not just public defenders. After all, judges and prosecutors would also be swamped if every felon insisted on a jury trial. Taxpayers would have to pay billions more to fund more judges, more prosecutors, and more public defenders and also more prisons to house all the prisoners who would now be serving longer sentences. Guilty felons obviously benefit from the reduced sentences they receive by waiving not just trials, but also all future appeals. Ironically, the only real losers in a system with plea bargaining at its core are the defendants who are truly innocent of having committed the crime they're charged with.
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/08/nyregion/jury-trials-vanish-and-justice-is-served-behind-closed-doors.html
As an aside i will say also that everyone benefits in civil litigation from the parties settling out of court. Personally back when i actually responded to jury duty notifications, pretrial settlements got me out of having to sit in a room with a bunch of lawyers.
The judge thanked us and dismissed us and i went home and showered.
Grave Digger
Jul 6, 2019, 12:29:48 PM7/6/19
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===
On the same note about prosecutions here's a link about Kamala Harris.
"Kamala Harris Says She Was a Progressive Prosecutor. Her Record Says Otherwise."
https://truthout.org/video/kamala-harris-says-she-was-a-progressive-prosecutor-her-record-says-otherwise/
Grave Digger
Jul 6, 2019, 12:41:28 PM7/6/19
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During the debates Harris said to Biden:
"that she doesn't believe that the vice president is racist and she's always had respect for the vice president,"
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/joe-biden-prepared-kamala-harris-debate-attack-busing/story?id=64146031
She knows that Biden isn't a racist...She just wanted to plant the seed.
She was just playing the Race Card...
RichL
Jul 7, 2019, 6:25:04 PM7/7/19
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On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 12:41:28 PM UTC-4, Grave Digger wrote:
> During the debates Harris said to Biden:
> "that she doesn't believe that the vice president is racist and she's always had respect for the vice president,"
> https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/joe-biden-prepared-kamala-harris-debate-attack-busing/story?id=64146031
> She knows that Biden isn't a racist...She just wanted to plant the seed.
> She was just playing the Race Card...
It's too bad that Usenet is text-only. An eyeroll GIF would be appropriate here.
> During the debates Harris said to Biden:
> "that she doesn't believe that the vice president is racist and she's always had respect for the vice president,"
> https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/joe-biden-prepared-kamala-harris-debate-attack-busing/story?id=64146031
> She knows that Biden isn't a racist...She just wanted to plant the seed.
> She was just playing the Race Card...
mayanca...@gmail.com
Jul 7, 2019, 7:23:02 PM7/7/19
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But, yeah, it was just playing the race card. Her entire candidacy is nothing but a race card.
You can't tell me she didn't have that response all mapped out.
Grave Digger
Jul 7, 2019, 7:32:09 PM7/7/19
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>
> You can't tell me she didn't have that response all mapped out.
====
> You can't tell me she didn't have that response all mapped out.
No doubt about it...That and the food fight comment.She's a former prosecutor and I don't trust the likes of them as far as I can throw them.They will let you rot in jail before they will confess to being wrong.
Just Kidding
Jul 7, 2019, 8:10:56 PM7/7/19
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Grave Digger
Jul 7, 2019, 8:16:57 PM7/7/19
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====
Either Tweedle Dee or Tweedle Dum:
> So you love cops but hate prosecutors."
.... ...
... ... .. .....
Just Kidding
Jul 7, 2019, 10:14:07 PM7/7/19
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(unresponsive response to follow)
Grave Digger
Jul 8, 2019, 2:04:54 PM7/8/19
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====
"Tweedle-Dee Dum said to Tweedle-Dee Dee
"Your presence is obnoxious to me"
They're like babies sittin' on a woman's knee
Tweedle-Dee Dum and Tweedle-Dee Dee"
Grave Digger
Jul 8, 2019, 3:01:55 PM7/8/19
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Old man look at my life...I'm nothing like you.
I've been to down to the bottom and it's dark down there. I'm not the kinda cat that sits in his lazyboy chair and pontificates about shit that he knows nothing about.In life you have to have a degree of book smarts,Lots of street smarts and wisdom...Wisdom only comes with the years that one has spent.
Just Kidding
Jul 8, 2019, 3:19:12 PM7/8/19
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