Robert Schumann
DAVID BARGNESI
Beethoven string quartet or a Mozart concerto, but Schumann is the
ultimate. So intimate and personal, I sometimes think that he's writing
just to me. Is he? Am I crazy? Does anyone else think the same way? A
veritable new land of undiscovered beauty awaits the unsuspecting
traveler in Schuamnn's largely (and unfairly) neglected repetoire. I must
know if I stand alone in this belief ( I can't be the only one, c'mon!).
Speak up Schumannites,
join the Davidsbündler, do the dance, and fight the rampant Philistines!
Dream.
-
DAVID BARGNESI BBX...@prodigy.com
Mario Taboada
>I'll admit it. I live for this man's music. Granted, I'll never pass up a
>Beethoven string quartet or a Mozart concerto, but Schumann is the
>ultimate. So intimate and personal, I sometimes think that he's writing
>just to me. Is he? Am I crazy? Does anyone else think the same way? A
>veritable new land of undiscovered beauty awaits the unsuspecting
>traveler in Schuamnn's largely (and unfairly) neglected repetoire. I must
>know if I stand alone in this belief ( I can't be the only one, c'mon!).
>Speak up Schumannites,
>join the Davidsdler, do the dance, and fight the rampant Philistines!
>Dream.
>-
>DAVID BARGNESI BBX...@prodigy.com
Most people I know like Schumann. But why do you call those who
don't "Philistines"? In other words, why do you care what others like or
dislike? Music is not religion...
Regards,
Mario Taboada
Los Angeles
SIU YUIN PANG
>When I started into classical music years ago, Schumann was one of my
>first "finds", after the usual warhorses. Our of curiosity, I picked
>up Karajan's LP set of the symphonies and absolutely wore the records
>out. I ended up buying at least one replacement set of LP's before
>the CD version came out, and I still can't pass up a new CD of the
>symphonies. The Schumann is also probably my favorite piano concerto.
I don't know but maybe I am missing something. I don't detest
Schumann's symphonies but I would definitely not rank them among say
Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler or Shostakovich. My ears just cannot
take repeated hearings of Schumann's orchestral music.
>The piano music is also very stimulating. Schumann's style with the
>piano is unique, and I often have to work a little harder to grasp
>some of them, but it's well worth the effort. In fact, I don't
>understand why someone hasn't launched a complete set of the piano
>music. Hyperion and Chandos, to name just a couple, seem to be quite
>good at spotting holes in the current catalog, so I can't see why they
>haven't come across the Schumann piano music. The only full set is by
>Demus on Nuovo Era, but they are relatively old recordings and not
>easily available. I enjoy a lot of Schumann's lesser-known music.
I agree that Schumann's piano style is unique; from his sometimes
awkward piano-writing, one would not think that he himself was a pianist.
I do like some of Schumann's piano pieces but I think for the most part,
his music just isn't attractive to me. I often find his music rather
disorganized. Am I missing something? Can anyone suggest how I may
approach and appreciate Schumann's music?
Sincerely,
Siu-Yuin PANG
David Fox
: David Bargnesi writes:
: >I'll admit it. I live for this man's music...
: >Speak up Schumannites,
: >join the Davidsdler, do the dance, and fight the rampant Philistines!
: Most people I know like Schumann. But why do you call those who
: don't "Philistines"? In other words, why do you care what others like or
: dislike? Music is not religion...
DAVID is referring to the last piece in Carnaval, "March of the League
of David against the Philistines". I'm a fellow member of the League
of DAVID, you see.
When I started into classical music years ago, Schumann was one of my
first "finds", after the usual warhorses. Our of curiosity, I picked
up Karajan's LP set of the symphonies and absolutely wore the records
out. I ended up buying at least one replacement set of LP's before
the CD version came out, and I still can't pass up a new CD of the
symphonies. The Schumann is also probably my favorite piano concerto.
The piano music is also very stimulating. Schumann's style with the
piano is unique, and I often have to work a little harder to grasp
some of them, but it's well worth the effort. In fact, I don't
understand why someone hasn't launched a complete set of the piano
music. Hyperion and Chandos, to name just a couple, seem to be quite
good at spotting holes in the current catalog, so I can't see why they
haven't come across the Schumann piano music. The only full set is by
Demus on Nuovo Era, but they are relatively old recordings and not
easily available. I enjoy a lot of Schumann's lesser-known music.
So, yes, I'm definitely a member of the Davidsbund. So are you a
member of the Florestan wing or the Eusebius wing?
--
Dave Fox
Richmond, Va
Roger Lustig
>David Bargnesi writes:
>>I'll admit it. I live for this man's music. Granted, I'll never pass up a
>>Beethoven string quartet or a Mozart concerto, but Schumann is the
>>ultimate. So intimate and personal, I sometimes think that he's writing
>>just to me. Is he? Am I crazy? Does anyone else think the same way? A
>>veritable new land of undiscovered beauty awaits the unsuspecting
>>traveler in Schuamnn's largely (and unfairly) neglected repetoire. I must
>>know if I stand alone in this belief ( I can't be the only one, c'mon!).
>>Speak up Schumannites,
>>join the Davidsbuendler, do the dance, and fight the rampant Philistines!
> Most people I know like Schumann. But why do you call those who
>don't "Philistines"? In other words, why do you care what others like or
>dislike? Music is not religion...
Mario, you're the victim of an inside joke. The last sentence is a
reference to two specific works by Schumann, two of his most important
in fact. The first is the "Davidsbuendlertaenze," named after the
fictional Davidsbund that Schumann the critic invented as a society
of progressive artists and art-lovers. Hence, "do the dance."
The second is Carnaval, Op. 9, which ends with "Marche des Davidsbuendler
contre les Philistines". It is, in one sense, the most unusual march
ever composed.
Now go and get the scores(wonderful to look at, even!) and buy the
CD set of Charles Rosen playing these (and several other) pieces.
That's your punishment; but believe me, you'll enjoy it! 8-)
Roger
Mario Taboada
I know and love Schumann's piano works. Let me first apologize, and
second, request to do my penance by listening to Reine Gianoli's set of
complete Schumann piano music...
Incidentally, I love Schumann's symphonies and I never get tired of them.
People have said bad things about them, and even reorchestrated them to
make them "better", but I am hopelessly addicted nevertheless.
Finally, I'll put in a plug for Schumann's songs: there ain't nothing
more beautiful.
regards,
Mario Taboada
Los Angeles
Roger Lustig
>In article <3alktb$1...@lucy.infi.net>, dav...@infi.net (David Fox) writes:
>>When I started into classical music years ago, Schumann was one of my
>>first "finds", after the usual warhorses. Our of curiosity, I picked
>>up Karajan's LP set of the symphonies and absolutely wore the records
>>out. I ended up buying at least one replacement set of LP's before
>>the CD version came out, and I still can't pass up a new CD of the
>>symphonies. The Schumann is also probably my favorite piano concerto.
> I don't know but maybe I am missing something. I don't detest
>Schumann's symphonies but I would definitely not rank them among say
>Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Mahler or Shostakovich. My ears just cannot
>take repeated hearings of Schumann's orchestral music.
What you're missing is the core of Schumann's output: the piano music
and the songs. The piano concerto is very fine, too, as is some of the
chamber music. The symphonies are actually fairly marginal to his
output.
>>The piano music is also very stimulating. Schumann's style with the
>>piano is unique, and I often have to work a little harder to grasp
>>some of them, but it's well worth the effort. In fact, I don't
>>understand why someone hasn't launched a complete set of the piano
>>music. Hyperion and Chandos, to name just a couple, seem to be quite
>>good at spotting holes in the current catalog, so I can't see why they
>>haven't come across the Schumann piano music. The only full set is by
>>Demus on Nuovo Era, but they are relatively old recordings and not
>>easily available. I enjoy a lot of Schumann's lesser-known music.
> I agree that Schumann's piano style is unique; from his sometimes
>awkward piano-writing, one would not think that he himself was a pianist.
>I do like some of Schumann's piano pieces but I think for the most part,
>his music just isn't attractive to me. I often find his music rather
>disorganized. Am I missing something? Can anyone suggest how I may
>approach and appreciate Schumann's music?
Start by not comparing him to your favorite composer. Accept that
he's organizing things *his*way, and trying to do things according
to his own approach. Check out the C Major Fantasy, and see how
he builds movements to their conclusion, instead of starting from
a clearly stated idea at the beginning.
Roger
Louis Diguer
I am glad to confess it: I am a Schumannites. I have often the
same feeling that you have: It seems like if Schuman was talking
directly to me. And there is something very special about
his music: it really imitates perfectly the human voice,
sometimes it seems to say very intimate things.
I do not like very much his symphonies. But I love his
piano music, the chamber music and the lieder.
Louis
Bruce...@brecant.worldbank.org
In article <3ak586$u...@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com>, <BBX...@prodigy.com>
writes:
>
He's not the ultimate composer for me (well, at least not this week), but I
vigorously agree with the characterization - to me Schumann's piano music is
the most consistently intimate & personal. And damn difficult to play.
Bruce
Evelyn Albrecht
[About Schuman]
> I do not like very much his symphonies. But I love his
>piano music, the chamber music and the lieder.
I find this interesting because I have a similar response to Brahms,
symphonies vs. chamber music. I haven't disliked playing Brahms
symphonies, but it wasn't until I had a chance to play his quartets,
clarinet quintet, and trios that he became one of my favorite composers.
It would be interesting to play one of his symphonies again to see if
they still seem somewhat bombastic.
--
|Evelyn Albrecht Ph: (206) 650-3239 |
|Academic Computing Services Internet: eve...@henson.cc.wwu.edu |
|Western Washington Univ. |
|Bellingham, WA 98225-9094 |
James C Liu
> I find this interesting because I have a similar response to Brahms,
> symphonies vs. chamber music. I haven't disliked playing Brahms
> symphonies, but it wasn't until I had a chance to play his quartets,
> clarinet quintet, and trios that he became one of my favorite composers.
> It would be interesting to play one of his symphonies again to see if
> they still seem somewhat bombastic.
I think it'd be more important to listen to the symphonies than play
in them; the density of composition recalls chamber music very strongly,
but this may not be obvious from the middle of the orchestra.
--
/James C.S. Liu, MD "I went to a general store, but they
jl...@world.std.com wouldn't let me buy anything specific."
Department of Medicine
New England Med Ctr, Boston MA -- Steve Wright
Alain DAGHER
: I'll admit it. I live for this man's music. Granted, I'll never pass up a
I too love Schumann. The problem is this: I can never seem to find a
great interpretation of his piano music; or, to put it another way,
I'm always left a little disapointed.
Some performances are very straightforward and unadorned (e.g.
Rubinstein's Fantasiestucke), and they leave me thinking there's
something missing.
Some performances, on the other hand, are full of sound and fury: huge
rubato, tons of emotion (e.g. Argerich). They leave me thinking there
must be some great music underneath all the fireworks.
So I searched and searched, and then I realized: it's not the
performers, it's the composer.
He had great ideas both in his piano music and his symphonies. But
somehow he just never seemed to know what to do with them. The concept
of development seemed foreign to him (perhaps this explains why he
stayed in love with the same woman all his life -). )
Take the last Fantasiestucke, the last variation of the Symphonic
Etudes, the final movement of the first symphony. Good musical ideas,
but he just plays them over and over until they lose their attraction.
(Anyway, I still love his music.)
--
Best wishes,
Alain Dagher
E-Mail: al...@pet.mni.mcgill.ca
Farhan Malik
>I too love Schumann. The problem is this: I can never seem to find a
>great interpretation of his piano music; or, to put it another way,
>I'm always left a little disapointed.
Have you heard Yves Nat?
Farhan
Dan Koren
>
>I too love Schumann. The problem is this: I can never seem to find a
>great interpretation of his piano music; or, to put it another way,
>I'm always left a little disapointed.
>
>Some performances are very straightforward and unadorned (e.g.
>Rubinstein's Fantasiestucke), and they leave me thinking there's
>something missing.
>
>Some performances, on the other hand, are full of sound and fury: huge
>rubato, tons of emotion (e.g. Argerich). They leave me thinking there
>must be some great music underneath all the fireworks.
>
>So I searched and searched, and then I realized: it's not the
>performers, it's the composer.
At the risk of repeating myself - have you heard Richter or Michelangeli
play Schumann's music?
If not, then you *must* hear:
Michelangeli: Carnaval, Fasschingschwank, Piano Concerto
Richter: Humoreske, Toccata, Etudes Symphoniques, Fantasiestucke,
Novelletten, Waldszenen, Bunte Blatter, Sonata in g minor,
C major Fantasy
Horowitz: Kreisleriana, Sonata in f minor
Pollini: C major Fantasy, Sonata in f# minor
Gieseking: Davidsbundlertanze
Perhaps these will change your notions of how good a composer Schumann
really was.
dk
Roger Lustig
[encomium omitted]
>I too love Schumann. The problem is this: I can never seem to find a
>great interpretation of his piano music; or, to put it another way,
>I'm always left a little disapointed.
>Some performances are very straightforward and unadorned (e.g.
>Rubinstein's Fantasiestucke), and they leave me thinking there's
>something missing.
>Some performances, on the other hand, are full of sound and fury: huge
>rubato, tons of emotion (e.g. Argerich). They leave me thinking there
>must be some great music underneath all the fireworks.
>So I searched and searched, and then I realized: it's not the
>performers, it's the composer.
Tried Rosen? I think there are some *very* fine performances there.
>He had great ideas both in his piano music and his symphonies. But
>somehow he just never seemed to know what to do with them. The concept
>of development seemed foreign to him (perhaps this explains why he
>stayed in love with the same woman all his life -). )
a) He developed plenty. Carnaval? C Major Fantasy?
b) More than one woman, too, early on. Check out the biographical
stuff around _Carnaval_.
>Take the last Fantasiestucke, the last variation of the Symphonic
>Etudes, the final movement of the first symphony. Good musical ideas,
>but he just plays them over and over until they lose their attraction.
Take a whole bunch of other pieces--quite a different story. But then,
Haydn-Beethoven-style development wasn't what he was after in the first
place. (Neither of them would have composed the "development" section
of the Piano Quintet, to use a glaring example, but then, it's not
exactly a second-rate work despite being unlike them...)
>(Anyway, I still love his music.)
Me too. Including the bits that develop.
Roger
Michael Siemon
>Tried Rosen? I think there are some *very* fine performances there.
Let me second this. Roger mentioned Rosen's three CD set of the
"revolutionary" piano works a year or so ago, and I took a chance on
them at his word. I'd listened to a fair amount of Schumann before,
but aside from some of the chamber music had found it dull and mostly
pointless (yes, even in Richter's capable hands.) Rosen changed
all that. For one thing, he plays the earlier versions, without the
padding of later revisions to try to pretend that these works have
a more "normal" structure. There is something almost Webern-like
in the incredible shift of theme and voicing and sonority over the
very shortest spans of time. It is kaleidoscopic and just wonderful.
---
[*] I heard on radio some time ago a student of Clara's doing
some reminiscences of her teaching, and the phrase that
stood out was an emphatic _keine Passagien!_ (no passage
work!) In Rosen's performances, every single note is
crucial, and the point finally sinks home.
Now, if only someone could recommend performances that would bring
the symphonies alive in this way -- they still bore me to tears.
--
Michael L. Siemon We must know the truth, and we must
m...@panix.com love the truth we know, and we must
act according to the measure of our love.
-- Thomas Merton
James C Liu
>Now, if only someone could recommend performances that would bring
>the symphonies alive in this way -- they still bore me to tears.
>--
Have you tried Furtwaengler (Vienna PO, London for #1; Berlin PO, DG for
#4) or Walter (New York PO, CBS, awaiting reissue)?
Kurt Olsen
:] "classical" While I'm inclined to agree that his symphonies aren't his best
:] efforts, I <<LOVE>> his Rhenish symphony. I also prefer his lieder to that
:] of anyone else, and his Konzertstuck for 4 horns and orchestra is asbolutly :] wonderful. (although, at heart, I'm a bigger Mahler fan than Schumann.)
--
"I'm writing 'Das Lied von der Erde', and she only wants to make love!!"
Tom Lehrer
Alain DAGHER
: In article <3avkom$a...@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca> alain@grumio (Alain DAGHER) writes:
: >He had great ideas both in his piano music and his symphonies. But
: >somehow he just never seemed to know what to do with them. The concept
: >of development seemed foreign to him (perhaps this explains why he
: >stayed in love with the same woman all his life -). )
: a) He developed plenty. Carnaval? C Major Fantasy?
: b) More than one woman, too, early on. Check out the biographical
: stuff around _Carnaval_.
Well, Clara was only eight years old at the time!
(And he was 25!)
Michael Siemon
>m...@panix.com (Michael Siemon) writes:
>>Now, if only someone could recommend performances that would bring
>>the symphonies alive in this way -- they still bore me to tears.
> Have you tried Furtwaengler (Vienna PO, London for #1; Berlin PO, DG for
>#4) or Walter (New York PO, CBS, awaiting reissue)?
I've heard one or two Furtwaengler performances of Schumann symponies,
though I do not now remember which (as indeed I remember nothing from
the performances.) They didn't work for me the way Rosen's traversal
of the piano music does, and I'll attempt a speculative "explanation"
here, though I could be speaking through my hat, and just not getting
it. Contradictions to this, or any related thoughts are most welcome.
I suspect that it took Brahms' genius to turn the incessant play of
motive and mood in Schumann into something amenable to the larger
gestures of formal symphonic rhetoric. The complaint we recently
had here about Brahms' "dropping melodies" actually seems to me to
suggest Johannes' very Schumannesque unwillingness to dwell repetively
on "the same old thing again" -- yet Brahms *did* manage to press this
density of musical thought into good usage of sonata and other "large"
forms. Brahms is closest to Schumann (in method, though very different
in emotional tone from the Florestan/Eusebius polarity) in his late
piano pieces, with their worlds in miniature having little relation
to classical forms.
Furtwaengler is unexcelled in bringing out the larger gestures, and
the relationships of point A to point Q in a given work -- but in a
sense I am getting a feeling that that is all irrelevant to Schumann.
In any case, I don't think that Furtwaengler's architectonic sense
really repsonds to what Schumann is doing - he needs something like
(as a wild analogy) Pierre Boulez's emphasis on significant detail
and not an overlay of large rhetorical gesture. I'm floundering here,
as I have *not* heard what I now think (post Rosen) I *want* to hear
in a performance of Schumann's symphonies -- something that makes good
sense of the *immediate* and local play of ideas.
Roger Lustig
>(And he was 25!)
If he was 25, she was 16. She was born in 1819, he in 1810.
Roger
Margaret Mikulska
>
>[about Schumann]
>
>Now, if only someone could recommend performances that would bring
>the symphonies alive in this way -- they still bore me to tears.
Jerzy Semkow on VoxBox - no competition.
On the other hand, the much-praised Sawallisch on EMI bores me to tears;
all I can say is "de gustibus" ...
Rozhdestvensky on Olympia is not bad.
As for others, I still have to listen to Celibidache - there is a set
with all four symphonies - so I can't comment on this one yet. Or on
Kubelik on CBS/Odyssey.
Roy Goodman and the Hanover Band have just recorded Schumann's
symphonies - certainly worth looking into, judging from their Beethoven.
-Margaret
S. LaBonne
>In <1994Nov25....@Princeton.EDU> ro...@faust.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>
>>Tried Rosen? I think there are some *very* fine performances there.
>
>Let me second this. Roger mentioned Rosen's three CD set of the
>"revolutionary" piano works a year or so ago, and I took a chance on
>them at his word.
And may I add a third! (I've had this set on LP for years.) Besides the
wonderfully free and imaginative playing, hearing the heartbreaking
original ending of the "Poems for the Piano" (as the Fantasy was originally
titled) has spoiled me for life; I always feel very unsatisfied by the
ending of the published version. I wish more pianists would investigate
this manuscript!
--
Steve LaBonne *********************** (labo...@csc.albany.edu)
"It can never be satisfied, the mind, never." - Wallace Stevens
Michael Siemon
>In article <3b6nn9$g...@panix2.panix.com> m...@panix.com (Michael Siemon) writes:
>>Now, if only someone could recommend performances that would bring
>>the symphonies alive in this way -- they still bore me to tears.
>Jerzy Semkow on VoxBox - no competition.
OK; I'll check into that one and possibly some of the others -- always
willing to explore...
>Kubelik on CBS/Odyssey.
I have that; it's middling/par-for-the-course among those I've heard,
and I had expected better of Kubelik. Not in the same league as his
Dvorak or Mahler.
>Roy Goodman and the Hanover Band have just recorded Schumann's
Hmm, a possibility there too...
Thanks.
Yoshiyuki Mukudai
alain@grumio (Alain DAGHER) writes:
>> I too love Schumann. The problem is this: I can never seem to find a
>> great interpretation of his piano music; or, to put it another way,
>> I'm always left a little disapointed.
I have very similar feeling to yours though I know some quite satisfying
interpretations. I too believe there are less great performances for
Schumann's major works than other composers. One of the problems is, I
think, the thick texture of his composition, which gives pianists a great
difficulty to deal with. Another may be concerned with his temper. His
works sometimes give me an impression that they are lacking of emotional
control.
>> Some performances are very straightforward and unadorned (e.g.
>> Rubinstein's Fantasiestucke), and they leave me thinking there's
>> something missing.
I think Rubinstein's Fantasiestucke is good if not great. Yves Nat makes
me hold the same opinion as yours.
>> Some performances, on the other hand, are full of sound and fury: huge
>> rubato, tons of emotion (e.g. Argerich). They leave me thinking there
>> must be some great music underneath all the fireworks.
None pianists satisfied me in Fantasie except Horowitz's. Others take me
nearly crazy with the 1st movement. I believe that crystal, sharp tone is
necessary for Schumann's works since it helps to clarify his music and to
avoid to be too hot. One other thing that is also very important when play
his music is the ability to distinguish what is most important and what
is next and so on. (some of Schumann's works demands this far much than
other composer's, IMO.)
>> So I searched and searched, and then I realized: it's not the
>> performers, it's the composer.
I don't say so, but still think that some parts of the problems are brought
by Schumann himself.
>> He had great ideas both in his piano music and his symphonies. But
>> somehow he just never seemed to know what to do with them. The concept
>> of development seemed foreign to him (perhaps this explains why he
>> stayed in love with the same woman all his life -). )
He liked many women and got syphilis which finally killed him, he got which
desease from one of them, probably from a woman whom he met at Wiek's house
named Kristel, I believe. He even writes in his diary, "Kristel passionately
glowed into flame last night."
>> Take the last Fantasiestucke, the last variation of the Symphonic
>> Etudes, the final movement of the first symphony. Good musical ideas,
>> but he just plays them over and over until they lose their attraction.
I believe that the most important thing to play Schumann is staying oneself
cool enough to see where he/she is and what he/she does even at the most
passionate moments, at the moments of ecstasy. I think only a few pianists
can do this in most difficult works like Fantasie, Kreisleriana, Symphonic
Etudes. (Carnaval has, I think, some good recordings like those of
Benedetti-Michelangeli, de Larrocha, and Cherkassky.)
Here is my favorite recordings:
Horowitz: Fantasie, Kreisleriana
Michelangeli: Carnaval (M&A not EMI), Concerto (with Scherchen)
Kissin: Abegg Variations, Symphonic Etudes
Firkusny: Davidsbundlertanze, Humoreske
Argerich: Kinderszenen, Kreisleriana
Cortot: Concerto, Fantasiestucke Opus 12-1, Waldszenen Opus 82-
Pollini: Arabeske
S.Francois: Symphonic Etudes
from recital performances:
Firkusny: Humoreske
Kissin: Abegg Variations, Symphonic Etudes
Annie Fischer: Concerto, Fantasiestucke op.12-1
(She matches Horowitz or Michelangeli as Schumann performer)
Horowitz: Arabeske
Cherkassky: Carnaval (but I do not say his Fantasie was good)
Yoshiyuki M.
L. Boris Repschinski
: Horowitz: Fantasie, Kreisleriana
: Michelangeli: Carnaval (M&A not EMI), Concerto (with Scherchen)
: Kissin: Abegg Variations, Symphonic Etudes
: Firkusny: Davidsbundlertanze, Humoreske
: Argerich: Kinderszenen, Kreisleriana
: Cortot: Concerto, Fantasiestucke Opus 12-1, Waldszenen Opus 82-
: Pollini: Arabeske
: S.Francois: Symphonic Etudes
: from recital performances:
: Firkusny: Humoreske
: Kissin: Abegg Variations, Symphonic Etudes
: Annie Fischer: Concerto, Fantasiestucke op.12-1
: (She matches Horowitz or Michelangeli as Schumann performer)
: Horowitz: Arabeske
: Cherkassky: Carnaval (but I do not say his Fantasie was good)
This mostly wonderful collection makes me wonder, though, why Wilhelm
Kempff is not mentioned here. His recordings seem to me some of the
greatest around.
Boris Repschinski
Mario Taboada
>Yoshiyuki Mukudai (s934...@sfc.keio.ac.jp) wrote:
>: from recital performances:
>Boris Repschinski
He has no cult following in the U.S. - just a few of us who appreciate his
subtlety and all-around musicianship. Incidentally, DG has just released
a double-decker CD set with the Brahms piano concerto #1, and shorter
pieces (I can't give details because I haven't bought it yet).
Another great Schumannist with no cult is Reine Gianoli, whose complete
recordings should be reissued immediately...
Regards,
Mario Taboada
Los Angeles (not the land of Uncle Guglielmo)
Alain DAGHER
: alain@grumio (Alain DAGHER) writes:
: >> He had great ideas both in his piano music and his symphonies. But
: >> somehow he just never seemed to know what to do with them. The concept
: >> of development seemed foreign to him (perhaps this explains why he
: >> stayed in love with the same woman all his life -). )
: He liked many women and got syphilis which finally killed him, he got which
: desease from one of them, probably from a woman whom he met at Wiek's house
: named Kristel, I believe. He even writes in his diary, "Kristel passionately
: glowed into flame last night."
Well, I didn't say he was a monk.
Besides, it isn't quite certain that he died from syphilis. This
diagnosis has been made retrospectively for many famous people
(Beethoven, Nietzsche, Hitler, Toulouse-Lautrec,...), but I'm always
suspicious. There are many conditions that can mimic syphilis.
Peter Barach
I like the Szell performances. They use Szell's orches-
trations, but they are very exciting performances.
--
Peter Barach, Ph.D. (aa388)
Erica N. Schulman
>eve...@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Evelyn Albrecht) writes:
>> I find this interesting because I have a similar response to Brahms,
>> symphonies vs. chamber music. I haven't disliked playing Brahms
>> symphonies, but it wasn't until I had a chance to play his quartets,
>> clarinet quintet, and trios that he became one of my favorite composers.
>> It would be interesting to play one of his symphonies again to see if
>> they still seem somewhat bombastic.
> I think it'd be more important to listen to the symphonies than play
>in them; the density of composition recalls chamber music very strongly,
>but this may not be obvious from the middle of the orchestra.
I listened to Brahms symphonies for many years before I ever played one
(as a viola). I was very surprised at how subtle and original Brahms
could be in his rhythmical patterns; he certainly set the stage for many
"modern" composers in this regard. The unique aspect of his chamber music
is that he evokes the feel of a small orchestra with only a few instruments.
After playing the inner voice on works by Haydn, for example, Brahms's
richness is greatly appreciated. I still love the symphonies, but the
chamber music is *amazing*.
Deryk Barker
Harnoncourt has just recorded all four, with the COE I think, and he
has chosen to record the *original* version of no.4.....
--
Deryk.
=================================================================
|Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Without music, life |
|Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada | would be a mistake |
|email: dba...@camosun.bc.ca | |
|phone: +1 604 370 4452 | (Friedrich Nietzsche).|
=================================================================
Viola Don
writes:
>Now, if only someone could recommend performances that would bring
>the symphonies alive in this way -- they still bore me to tears.
I happen to agree with you about performances of the symphonies. I have
never heard or participated in a performance of a Schumann symphony I
liked, until about 2 years ago when Eschenbach conducted us (SF Symph) in
#1. For the first time I felt a conductor understood Schumann.
--Don Ehrlich
fehs...@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com
Erica N. Schulman <EN...@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>The unique aspect of his chamber music
>is that he evokes the feel of a small orchestra with only a few instruments.
At the suggestion of someone from this newsgroup, I investigated the two
piano versions of Brahms' Symphonies (so far, just 3 and 4; 1 and 2 are back
ordered). I was struck by how much the symphonies sound like Brahms' piano
and chamber music when played on piano, something I had not noticed so
obviously before. What is it about Brahms' orchestration that disguises
this resemblance?
len.
David Emery
: In article <3b6nn9$g...@panix2.panix.com> m...@panix.com (Michael Siemon) writes:
: :
: :[about Schumann]
: :
: :the symphonies alive in this way -- they still bore me to tears.
:
: On the other hand, the much-praised Sawallisch on EMI bores me to tears;
: all I can say is "de gustibus" ...
:
: Rozhdestvensky on Olympia is not bad.
:
: As for others, I still have to listen to Celibidache - there is a set
: with all four symphonies - so I can't comment on this one yet. Or on
: Kubelik on CBS/Odyssey.
:
: Roy Goodman and the Hanover Band have just recorded Schumann's
: symphonies - certainly worth looking into, judging from their Beethoven.
: -Margaret
Hmm. Semkow >> Sawallisch && Kubelik = ?
I think: Semkow is well-punctuated and burnished. Sawallisch is smooth,
broad, and well-detailed. Hard to complain much about either. Both have
earned their share of praise. Something in between would make me happy.
Schumann`s orchestral coloration seems to be difficult to balance.
Goodman/Hanover sounds interesting, and I've found their Haydn and
Schubert to have some value. But like a lot of standard repertory, I'd
prefer to get something at low price and save my money for the unusual
stuff.
I just saw some of the new DG bargain doubles. Kubelik/Schumann was one of
the offerings. Somehow, with these pieces, I can't decide whether I would be
satisfied or not with Kubelik's customary airiness, if that applies here.
Does he have enough ballast for the full orchestal sections?
In article <3b6nn9$g...@panix2.panix.com>, Michael Siemon <m...@panix.com> wrote:
>In <1994Nov25....@Princeton.EDU> ro...@faust.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
:
::Tried Rosen? I think there are some *very* fine performances there.
:
:Let me second this. Roger mentioned Rosen's three CD set of the
:"revolutionary" piano works a year or so ago, and I took a chance on
:them at his word.
Other positive comments precipitated from this exchange. Can anyone
provide more information about this set? Recording date? Label? In print?
Gerard Henri Rene Milmeister
Deryk Barker <dba...@camosun.bc.ca> wrote:
>
>Harnoncourt has just recorded all four, with the COE I think, and he
>has chosen to record the *original* version of no.4.....
>--
>Deryk.
Yes, indeed. I was present at an interview with Harnoncourt. After
a the beginning of the 4th has been played, the interviewer asked
Mr Harnoncourt, how he felt listening to his own recording. He
replied that he was quite astonished again by this recording because
now he is studying the revised version. But he thinks both version
have the right to be performed. For him they are both very different
works and both excellent in their own way.
--
Gerard Milmeister | "Some men are born mediocre, some men
<ghmi...@iiic.ethz.ch> | achieve mediocrity, and some men have
Tannenrauchstr. 35 | mediocrity thrust upon them."
CH-8038 Zuerich Switzerland | Joseph Heller, "Catch-22"
James C Liu
>At the suggestion of someone from this newsgroup, I investigated the two
>piano versions of Brahms' Symphonies (so far, just 3 and 4; 1 and 2 are back
>ordered). I was struck by how much the symphonies sound like Brahms' piano
>and chamber music when played on piano, something I had not noticed so
>obviously before. What is it about Brahms' orchestration that disguises
>this resemblance?
I think it stems from the density of the conception; Schumann referred to
the early piano works as "veiled symphonies" and more than once, Brahms
reorchestrated and reworked compositions as piano sonatas, two-piano works,
and symphonies. The genesis of the German Requiem springs immediately to
mind as an example. His was definitely a style that crosses boundaries,
with a depth of subtlety that easily escapes the casual ear.
Evelyn Albrecht
>fehs...@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com () writes:
>>At the suggestion of someone from this newsgroup, I investigated the two
>>piano versions of Brahms' Symphonies (so far, just 3 and 4; 1 and 2 are back
>>ordered).
[Additional interesting comment clipped.]
> I think it stems from the density of the conception; Schumann referred to
>the early piano works as "veiled symphonies" and more than once, Brahms
>reorchestrated and reworked compositions as piano sonatas, two-piano works,
>and symphonies.
[Again interesting comment clipped.]
Oh dear, due to our newsreader collapsing during and following Thanks-
giving weekend, and to our short expiration time for rec newsgroups, I
missed a chunk of this discussion, which looks really interesting and
which I started as an offshoot of an earlier one. If anyone can still
access it would you please mail it to me. (I doubt there's enough of
it still around to swamp me.)
Thanks.
Evelyn
--
|Evelyn Albrecht Ph: (206) 650-3239 |
|Academic Computing Services Internet: eve...@henson.cc.wwu.edu |
|Western Washington Univ. |
|Bellingham, WA 98225-9094 |
Al SImcoe
dba...@turing.camosun.bc.ca (Deryk Barker) wrote:
:: Margaret Mikulska (miku...@comet.Princeton.EDU) wrote:
:: : In article <3b6nn9$g...@panix2.panix.com> m...@panix.com (Michael Siemon) writes:
:: : >
:: : >[about Schumann]
:: : >
:: : >Now, if only someone could recommend performances that would bring
:: : >the symphonies alive in this way -- they still bore me to tears.
::
:: : Jerzy Semkow on VoxBox - no competition.
::
:: : On the other hand, the much-praised Sawallisch on EMI bores me to tears;
:: : all I can say is "de gustibus" ...
::
:: : Rozhdestvensky on Olympia is not bad.
::
:: : As for others, I still have to listen to Celibidache - there is a set
:: : with all four symphonies - so I can't comment on this one yet. Or on
:: : Kubelik on CBS/Odyssey.
::
:: : Roy Goodman and the Hanover Band have just recorded Schumann's
:: : symphonies - certainly worth looking into, judging from their Beethoven.
::
:: Harnoncourt has just recorded all four, with the COE I think, and he
:: has chosen to record the *original* version of no.4.....
:: --
:: Deryk.
May I recomend the EBS recording of all 4 symphonies. This *recording* is
anything but boring! This is one tight archestra that is very much alive
and spirited. Gauranteed to produce Goose Bumps.
This is one of my better purchases of the year.
Typical West German orchestra- Tight assed, Killer orchestra with awesome
sound.
Label- EBS
Catalogue #- ebs6088 (3 discs)
Recording date- 1993
Orchestra-Klassiche Philharmonie Dusseldorf
Conductor- Florian Merz
Al Simcoe.....
Toronto
Carol McAlpine
>>> I find this interesting because I have a similar response to Brahms,
>>> symphonies vs. chamber music. I haven't disliked playing Brahms
>>> symphonies, but it wasn't until I had a chance to play his quartets,
>>> clarinet quintet, and trios that he became one of my favorite
composers.
>>> It would be interesting to play one of his symphonies again to see if
>>> they still seem somewhat bombastic.
>
>> I think it'd be more important to listen to the symphonies than play
>>in them; the density of composition recalls chamber music very strongly,
>>but this may not be obvious from the middle of the orchestra.
Forgot who said all this, but if I may add a "sometimes" I would like to
agree with whoever said that listening can [sometimes] be more important
than playing in coming to understand Brahms. As much as I learned from
being in an orchestra for a time, the experience also led me astray a
few times. Brahms can be sooooo dull for bassoonists to play
that I wasn't able to hear him without prejudice for a long time after I
quit playing. It took almost 20 years for Brahms to really come through. I'm
sure other people on other instruments have had similar experiences. Any
violinists want to talk about Bruckner, hmmmm? And then sometimes a piece
can be so much fun to play that one almost forgets it's not exactly a great
piece of music. For some reason I LOVE Berlioz' Ov. to Beatrice & Benedict.
Not exactly Berlioz' best work, but so exhilarating to play.
Carol McAlpine
Mike Quigley#2
auction recently for a symphony by Robert Schumann. Was this one of
the four, or was it yet another symphony (there was some suggestion that
it was the latter).
NE...@cunyvm.cuny.edu
IMHO, his tendency to density of texture can be a little too much in some
passages in his symphonies, but there are some lovely warm themes to compensate
the listener. Carol McAlpine pointed out another factor. Some music is really
wonderful to play, but not so much fun for the listener ! For a pianist, the
sheer physical pleasure of tearing through a Liszt Transcendental Etude, like
the one in F minor, is lovely, but the result for an audience, if you let your
muscles suppress your critical ear, can be dreadful. I heard last Friday a
young Russian violinist and several time first-prize winner, Dmitri Berlinsky
with an excellent pianist Svetlana Gorokhevich. His performance of the Ravel
Tzigane was as good as anything I have ever heard - five stars. The two of
them played superbly also in the Brahms no 3 and Franck sonatas. However,
they played the Beethoven op 12 no 1 - first and last movements very loud and
very fast - that last movement Rondo should, I think, DANCE , and not be a
vehicle to overwhelm the audience with speed and power ! However, if you get a
chance to hear Berlinsky, don't miss him. Neil McKelvie
Bruce...@brecant.worldbank.org
In article <94338.10...@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>, <NE...@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> writes:
..
> Carol McAlpine pointed out another factor. Some music is really
> wonderful to play, but not so much fun for the listener ! For a pianist, the
> sheer physical pleasure of tearing through a Liszt Transcendental Etude, like
> the one in F minor, is lovely, but the result for an audience, if you let
your
> muscles suppress your critical ear, can be dreadful.
Which composers and which pieces are most visceral fun to play? There are
some pieces which, however badly I abuse them, my hands enjoy playing:
- Ravel sonatine
- Debussy preludes (book 1)
- Chopin preludes, ballades, scherzi, polonaises
- Brahms intermezzi
I've only played the piano (which almost always wins), but am curious about any
instrumental music. What works do others play for physical pleasure?
Bruce
Roger Lustig
3.5 megaclams.
Roger
James C Liu
>Which composers and which pieces are most visceral fun to play? There are
>some pieces which, however badly I abuse them, my hands enjoy playing:
>- Ravel sonatine
>- Debussy preludes (book 1)
>- Chopin preludes, ballades, scherzi, polonaises
>- Brahms intermezzi
>I've only played the piano (which almost always wins), but am curious about any
>instrumental music. What works do others play for physical pleasure?
Tangentially related: music which is *sung* for the pure joy of it.
Two examples spring to mind:
Orff: Carmina Burana
Mozart: Requiem
--
/James C.S. Liu, MD "There is always an easy answer to
jl...@world.std.com every human problem - neat, plausible,
Department of Medicine and wrong."
New England Med Ctr, Boston MA -- H. L. Mencken
Alain DAGHER
: Which composers and which pieces are most visceral fun to play?
On the guitar, the music of Bach is physically pleasurable. Every note
seems to fall exactly where your finger is at that time. It's
incredible. It almost makes me sound competent.
On the other hand, the music of Albeniz and Granados (which is
transcribed from piano works) is damn difficult. (Fun to listen to
though.)
--
Best wishes,
Alain Dagher
Montreal Neurological Institute
E-Mail: al...@pet.mni.mcgill.ca
Larisa Migachyov
: Which composers and which pieces are most visceral fun to play? There are
: some pieces which, however badly I abuse them, my hands enjoy playing:
: - Ravel sonatine
: - Debussy preludes (book 1)
: - Chopin preludes, ballades, scherzi, polonaises
: - Brahms intermezzi
: I've only played the piano (which almost always wins), but am curious about
: any instrumental music. What works do others play for physical pleasure?
I love playing Chopin (just about anything, but I prefer the ballades),
Liszt's Concert Etude #2 (really a lot of fun), and the Mozart sonatas
(since I'm a Mozart addict). Also, I've been getting into Gershwin
lately, and am enjoying that a lot. The most fun I've had was probably
with Chopin's 1st piano concerto (not that the listeners probably had any
fun).
-Larisa Migachyov
Gavin Steyn
>Bruce...@brecant.worldbank.org wrote:
>: Which composers and which pieces are most visceral fun to play?
>On the guitar, the music of Bach is physically pleasurable. Every note
>seems to fall exactly where your finger is at that time. It's
>incredible. It almost makes me sound competent.
Oddly enough, I have had the opposite experience. I find Back to be
completely unidiomatic for the guitar--the results sound great,
but they're really hard to achieve.
On the piano, I find Bach falls better, but I have more fun playing
Chopin. I'm not sure why, but Chopin has always felt fun to play
(I just hope the people who listen like it as well :-) ). I have
big hands, which definitely helps.
>On the other hand, the music of Albeniz and Granados (which is
>transcribed from piano works) is damn difficult. (Fun to listen to
>though.)
I think Rodrigo's music is probably hardest for me on guitar.
For fun playing, I tend to like renaissance pieces--they fall
really nicely, and so I can concentrate on pulling all the musical
stuff out. Also, I like playing flamenco, 'cause then I get to
just bang away :-).
Gavin Steyn
st...@ll.mit.edu
Greybrd
them!
Scott Morrison
Steve Wang
[...]
>Which composers and which pieces are most visceral fun to play? There are
>some pieces which, however badly I abuse them, my hands enjoy playing:
>
>- Ravel sonatine
>- Debussy preludes (book 1)
>- Chopin preludes, ballades, scherzi, polonaises
>- Brahms intermezzi
>
>I've only played the piano (which almost always wins), but am curious about any
>instrumental music. What works do others play for physical pleasure?
How about Steve Reich's _Clapping Music_?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Wang The University of Chicago
wa...@galton.uchicago.edu Department of Statistics
Chris Adlard
: Bruce...@brecant.worldbank.org writes:
: >Which composers and which pieces are most visceral fun to play?
I love playing the Chopin Etude Op. 10 No. 4 for a physical turn-on. Love
it - a real trip!
Chris Adlard
NE...@cunyvm.cuny.edu
and La Campanella, especially the earlier version including part of another
Paganini Violin Concerto; and several Strauss Waltz arrangements by Godowsky,
Friedman, Grunfeld,particularly the Carnaval de Vienne by Moriz Rosenthal
are all capable of getting a pianist's adrenaline up ! However, there are
different kinds of pleasure. The physical pleasure of exercising one's fingers
and arms by playing an athletic piece, and the emotional pleasure of playing a
beautiful and/or profound piece of music, are two different things, which are
only occasionally combined. Exercise for the body, and exercise for the soul...
Neil McKelvie
MTSA...@ulkyvm.louisville.edu
cad...@adam.com.au (Chris Adlard) writes:
>
>James C Liu (jl...@world.std.com) wrote:
>: Bruce...@brecant.worldbank.org writes:
>
>: >Which composers and which pieces are most visceral fun to play?
>
the foundation of that glorious harmony, are never boring or
static, yet (with very few exceptions) lie very well in the
hands and are not technically very difficult.
There are certainly other composers who wrote very well for
the bass, but Brahms is consistently my favorite from the
performer's point of view.
--MTS
leu...@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu
violin sonata. They are not too technically demanding, yet not easy.
They are very pleasure. Another composer would be Debussy. His music
if played singlarly in one part, may not make sense. But if it is
combined together, it make many sense
David
richard hihn
: For the violin, I like Franck's Symphony in Dminor the best, so as his
Except for the piano part to the sonata, which is a totally different
story...(:))
Dick
: David
Natalie Starkey
playing Finlandia, and i loved Rodeo.
natalia
YM יוֹשִׁיוּכִּי
> I'll admit it. I live for this man's music. Granted, I'll never pass up a
> Beethoven string quartet or a Mozart concerto, but Schumann is the
> ultimate. So intimate and personal, I sometimes think that he's writing
> just to me. Is he? Am I crazy? Does anyone else think the same way? A
> veritable new land of undiscovered beauty awaits the unsuspecting
> traveler in Schuamnn's largely (and unfairly) neglected repetoire. I must
> know if I stand alone in this belief ( I can't be the only one, c'mon!).
> Speak up Schumannites,
> join the Davidsbündler, do the dance, and fight the rampant Philistines!
>
>
> Dream.
>
> -
> DAVID BARGNESI BBX...@prodigy.com
(anagram)
David Begs Rain 2224...@prodigy.com on May 10, 1990 in the morning in Manhattan.
Excise some of the old viola jokes in this UseNet group like the one from University of North Caroline Chapel Hill. Or, visiting Claude Monet exhibition with a stolen Patron ticket during May 19 - August 12, 1990 sometime around 1:23 pm. Then, come down to Osaka and visit city of Kumatori, and you can
pursue the criminal of kidnapping of Yuri Yoshikawa. You must pursue this way. Terminate the criminal.
Period. I am so furious about this absurd turkey shows.
Never steal my property and my life again. I created Obama and gave him 2 terms as the 44th U.S. President. Just give testimony on Maureen Dowd. That should be enough on this matter.
I even imagine that Senator McCain could have achieved the similar jobs in a different way because he is a man of belief. Obamas, especially Michelle was a total disappointment.
Even Adolph Hitler kept Robert Schumann, an apparent Jewish origin, in his phoney fight with his Philistines, Prof. David Bargnesi. Just remember that.
Regards,
King David, YM
YM יוֹשִׁיוּכִּי
> I'll admit it. I live for this man's music. Granted, I'll never pass up a
> Beethoven string quartet or a Mozart concerto, but Schumann is the
> ultimate. So intimate and personal, I sometimes think that he's writing
> just to me. Is he? Am I crazy? Does anyone else think the same way? A
> veritable new land of undiscovered beauty awaits the unsuspecting
> traveler in Schuamnn's largely (and unfairly) neglected repetoire. I must
> know if I stand alone in this belief ( I can't be the only one, c'mon!).
> Speak up Schumannites,
> join the Davidsbündler, do the dance, and fight the rampant Philistines!
>
>
> Dream.
>
> -
> DAVID BARGNESI BBX...@prodigy.com
(anagram)
David Begs Rain 2224...@prodigy.com on May 10, 1990 in the morning in Manhattan.
Period. I am so furious about this absurd turkey shows.
I even imagine that Senator McCain could have achieved the similar jobs in a different way because he is a man of faith. Obamas, especially Michelle was a total disappointment.
Even Adolph Hitler kept Robert Schumann, an apparent Jewish origin, on his side in his phoney fight with his Philistines, Prof. David Bargnesi. Just remember that.
Regards,
King David, YM
YM יוֹשִׁיוּכִּי
> alain@grumio (Alain DAGHER) writes:
>
> >> I too love Schumann. The problem is this: I can never seem to find a
> >> great interpretation of his piano music; or, to put it another way,
> >> I'm always left a little disapointed.
>
> He liked many women and got syphilis which finally killed him, he got which
> desease from one of them, probably from a woman whom he met at Wiek's house
> named Kristel, I believe. He even writes in his diary, "Kristel passionately
> glowed into flame last night."
Starting from the other day, I was occasionally thinking why Christel Takigawa is not at all worth a trust.
And, I concluded my survey here. This is the very reason where her publicised name taken. Likewise her so called official birthday of October 1 that coincides with city of Fujisawa or Independence day of Republic of China but Vladimir Horowitz.
YM