Fiendishly difficult harp piece
David Paterson
I ask because I'm arranging a piano piece for symphony orchestra and
am worried that 'I' may be writing the most fiendishly difficult harp
piece ever. And it's not even for a soloist. I'm trying to make the
harp part as simple as possible without losing any of the original
piano notes.
The harp plays rippling water for 16 bars under a birdsong in the
flute. Crotchet is 80. I was originally going to score the rippling
water for clarinet but it's way too fast for even the fastest
clarinetist. The slowest harp notes are semiquavers, there are also 5
in the time of 4, semiquaver triplets and demisemiquavers. The key
modulates from 3 sharps to no sharps to 3 flats, and then modulates at
least 2 more times. It's primarily up and down arpeggios with some
glissandos and turn ornaments. Nothing is ever repeated.
I got seriously worried when I had a descending triplet semiquaver
arpeggio in the right hand and at the same time a much faster
ascending 3 note arpeggio in the left hand. I'm still tossing up
whether to make it triplet demisemiquaver (as originally played on
piano) or slow it to demisemiquaver. Advice?
I've done all I can think of (short of removing notes) to make the
harp part easier. The lowest notes are being farmed out to pizzicato
double bass and cello. On some beats I've added an extra semiquaver to
give the harp a bit more time.
I'm allowing at least one beat for each semitone pedal change. Is that
long enough for a harp simultaneously playing presto?
Look, I'm half tempted to remove all timing and tell the harp to 'play
it as fast as you can', and let the harpist work out which hand plays.
But there are problems with that, one is that the glissandos would be
too fast, a second is the rare need for synchronisation between hands,
a third is that the cello & double bass notes would have to be added
back into the harp part, a fourth is that the original piano contains
subtleties like accelerating for 3 beats and slowing for the 4th
(which I'm handling now by adding an extra semiquaver to the slower
beat).
I can send anyone interested a 'gif' or 'ps' file of the harp part as
it stands.
HELP! Any advice welcome. How do I score this? I'm an absolute
amateur. This is the first time I've arranged anything for orchestra.
Dr.Matt
If it's originally for piano, it's almost certainly not suitable
for ONE harp (big hint). Harps are diatonic instruments, and players
generally do not use their little fingers to pluck strings at all.
Consider adding a piano to the orchestra. Also consider that a rush
of fast notes broken up among bassoons and clarinets can go fiendishly
fast, so long as each player gets a chance to breathe.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
"Hey, don't knock Placebo, its the only thing effective for my hypochondria."
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Peter T. Daniels
Also, "Harpists spend 90% of the time tuning and 10% playing out of
tune."
Every time you make them pedal, moreover, the strings will lose a bit
more of their tuning.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
davyd
You didn't indicate the level of ability of the orchestra; I'm assuming it's
mostly amateurs with a few professionals and a few beginners.
Can you meet with the harpist in advance, to get a 'sanity check' on the
part? If indeed you have never scored for orchestra before, you might want
to do the same with the principal players of any other instrument for which
your writing may be overly challenging. The players will respect you for it.
No one likes to spend time practicing something that doesn't make sense on
their instrument in the first place.
If you don't know for sure that a professional player will be covering the
part, and possibly even if you do, you're probably safest keeping it for
piano. Even if you do have a pro available, she/he might not show up until
the last rehearsal, and it will be too late to fix it then.
"David Paterson" <David.P...@csiro.au> wrote in message
news:93e7f970.04031...@posting.google.com...
David Paterson
score and see how it was written? Otherwise I'll have to write the
score as Chopin would for piano.
Thanks for the advice, and for the advice on harp tuning problems. I
can't alter the tuning changes but can tweak the time available for
changing pedal positions. Luckily I don't have perfect pitch so I
won't know if the harp is out of tune.
> If it's originally for piano, it's almost certainly not suitable
> for ONE harp (big hint). Harps are diatonic instruments, and players
> generally do not use their little fingers to pluck strings at all.
> Consider adding a piano to the orchestra. Also consider that a rush
> of fast notes broken up among bassoons and clarinets can go fiendishly
> fast, so long as each player gets a chance to breathe.
The piano did play the flute part at the same time as the harp part,
so the harp has an easier job.
I can't follow your suggestion because I'm arranging this for an
orchestra of KNOWN composition. There are 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons, 1
harp and no piano, and I'm NOT allowed to add extra instruments. Life
would be much easier if I was allowed to add a piano or second harp
(or third bassoon to let the other two breathe in the toughest bassoon
part; can a bassoonist breathe in 6/10 of a second?).
I initially thought that beaking up the part among a minimum of four
clarinets might allow it to go fast enough, but it wouldn't, not by a
long way, because the arpeggios are so irregular, the phrasing would
be all wrong.
And harp sounds so good playing rippling water.
> If it's originally for piano, it's almost certainly not suitable
> for ONE harp (big hint). Harps are diatonic instruments, and players
> generally do not use their little fingers to pluck strings at all.
Each phrase, lasting 2 to 4 bars, is diatonic. After the first 2 key
changes (A to C to E flat) the others changes are small eg. leading
note.
I've checked and the whole harp part can be played without little
fingers, eg. the groups of 5 semiquavers in the time of 4 are easily
played by a falling arpeggio of 3 fingers in the right hand followed
by a rising 2 in the left, all within the compass of one octave.
I asked about existing fiendishly difficult harp parts so I can look
at the score and see how it was written. Otherwise I'll have to score
it as I would a piano.
In case you're interested, Vivaldi, Mozart, Shubert & Chopin would
have loved this piece. Bach & Beethoven would have dismissed it as not
tragic enough. Ravel & Debussy would have considered it hopelessly
old-fashioned. All would have agreed that it is difficlt to play. The
harp part is not the only difficult one; all the woodwinds, the viola,
cello & double bass have tough bits. The violins have it easy. I
haven't finished working on the brass.
I don't have any notes for timpani yet; I don't want to add any but
the orchestra says I must.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Can you refer me to a v. difficult harp piece so I can look at the
> score and see how it was written? Otherwise I'll have to write the
> score as Chopin would for piano.
>
> Thanks for the advice, and for the advice on harp tuning problems. I
> can't alter the tuning changes but can tweak the time available for
> changing pedal positions. Luckily I don't have perfect pitch so I
> won't know if the harp is out of tune.
Excuse me? Will two instruments never be playing at the same time? If
you can't hear whether they're in tune with each other, you have no
business trying to write music.
Alan Watkins
I think the best advice you have had is to run the part past a
harpist. Among difficult parts for the harp are harp I in Symphonie
Fantastique, Tzigane or Alborado del Gracioso (Ravel), Salome
(Strauss) and the Flower Waltz from Nutcracker (it's No 12 in Act II);
plus Faure Impromptu; Sonata (Hindemith)
Traditionally, pedal position changes are arranged so that the changes
can be made during rests.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Nightingale
>
> Traditionally, pedal position changes are arranged so that the changes
> can be made during rests.
>
We were doing something with harp a few years ago, and had to make a
couple of changes when we ran through it with the harp because of pedal
position changes - the director had wanted to go straight through
without a break from one section to another, and it sounded great when
he played it that way on the piano, but the harpist said it couldn't be
done.
--
Blessed Cecilia, appear in visions
To all musicians, appear and inspire:
Translated Daughter, come down and startle
Composing mortals with immortal fire.
davyd
> score and see how it was written? Otherwise I'll have to write the
> score as Chopin would for piano.
The "Danses sacre et profane" of Debussy might be a good model. I don't know
that it's "fiendishly" difficult, since it seems like every harpist knows
it.
(snipped)
> I can't follow your suggestion because I'm arranging this for an
> orchestra of KNOWN composition. There are 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons, 1
> harp and no piano, and I'm NOT allowed to add extra instruments. Life
> would be much easier if I was allowed to add a piano or second harp
> (or third bassoon to let the other two breathe in the toughest bassoon
> part; can a bassoonist breathe in 6/10 of a second?).
Yes, although there are limits as to how long you can expect one to go on
doing so.
(snipped)
> I don't have any notes for timpani yet; I don't want to add any but
> the orchestra says I must.
If indeed you "must" use timpani, find out how many drums they will have on
hand, and which sizes. That will partly determine how many notes you can
write for them. Same goes double for any other percussion instruments.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Alan Watkins wrote:
> >
> > Traditionally, pedal position changes are arranged so that the changes
> > can be made during rests.
> >
>
> We were doing something with harp a few years ago, and had to make a
> couple of changes when we ran through it with the harp because of pedal
> position changes - the director had wanted to go straight through
> without a break from one section to another, and it sounded great when
> he played it that way on the piano, but the harpist said it couldn't be
> done.
At the dress rehearsal of Bolcom's Songs of Innocence and Experience at
Grant Park many years ago, he demanded an _attacca_ of a next movement,
but the conductor waited for the oboist to finish _muta_ing _in corno
inglese_, or something like that, and the player said to the composer,
"Whaddya want? You wrote it that way!"
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
Given the enormous scale of that piece (I heard it in London some years
ago) it would scarcely cause a tick in the budget to hire an extra
oboist to facilitate such an attacca. :-)
--
Regards,
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
Helsinki, Finland
To reply by e-mail, remove EQUALS.
"Nil significat nisi oscillat. Du vap. Du vap. Du vap."
David Paterson
Stanley Chaloupka.
I've settled on 'presto esspressivo' for the harp speed.
Thank you everybody for your advice, and list of pieces. I'm getting
some fantastic help from Kari Vehmanen who does harp copying work.
Kari is giving me advice on, among other things, which harp sections
will sound muddy because they're being played on already vibrating
strings. He says that the harp part is definitely playable.
I've overestimated how difficult the composition is to play. The most
difficult part other then the harp is the flute and I've now seen more
difficult flute parts in Mozart. The triplet demisemiquavers in the
left hand of the harp against the triplet semiquavers in the right
hand seems to be the toughest part.
I'm adding back to the harp part most if not all of the notes that
were going to be played on pizzicato cello & double bass, it would
have to have been played on a pair of each and synchronisation would
be a problem, as well as the different tone. This means further
changes to the harp part as the pedalling is now impossible; the cello
was taking the pressure off the need for some speedy pedal changes.
> you have no business trying to write music.
Absolutely true, perhaps more so than you realise; but if I don't then
the music will never be played, and that would be a very great shame,
the world needs it.
I'm finding that arranging the orchestration is very easy; whenever I
come towards a problem it evaporates before I reach it. It's as if the
composition was pre-destined to be played by a chamber orchestra.
Almost all the tone colours were already in the original piano
recording, and if they aren't then there's always only one instrument
that will fit the range of notes.
I still need to avoid howlers - I initially had two passages of
Clarinet over Oboe, a definite no-no. I'm still nervous about bassoon
& cello playing a countermelody in unison underneath the violin start,
the tone colours are so different, and in part of the range the
bassoon can't play pp. I think it'll work; I'm going to label the
volume of the bassoon part "pp or louder". Are there any nasty
combinations in midrange brass (slow notes & chords only) I should be
aware of?
All the remaining problems seem minor - eg. breathing of clarinet &
oboe, am I right to get the violas to frequently play 2 notes at once
when the other strings each have single notes, how to print it when my
software insists on the same key signature for all instruments, how to
get the enharmonics right, whether to set the standard volume to mf or
mp, how to specify bowing when I've never touched a violin in my life?
> Traditionally pedal position changes are arranged so that the changes can be made during rests.
Impossible here. In each key a harp diatonic passage climaxes on an
accidental which introduces the new key. For the first two changes
I've been careful to allow a full bar in advance for a pedal change
for that specific note.
"davyd" <d...@c.kom> wrote in message news:<m%o6c.12567$rQ.8486@lakeread04>...
> "Fiendishly difficult" is one thing, "impractical" is another.
>
> You didn't indicate the level of ability of the orchestra; I'm assuming it's
> mostly amateurs with a few professionals and a few beginners.
Sorry, I didn't metion. I'm entering this in a competition on behalf
of the composer. If it wins (I think it's good enough to get at least
second place) it'll be played by the Victoria Symphony Orchesta and be
recorded. This is a small professional orchestra that specialises in
opera and ballet. The conditions of the competition are that the piece
has to be for a specified orchestral composition. No piano.
> Can you meet with the harpist in advance, to get a 'sanity check' on the
> part? If indeed you have never scored for orchestra before, you might want
> to do the same with the principal players of any other instrument for which
> your writing may be overly challenging. The players will respect you for it.
> No one likes to spend time practicing something that doesn't make sense on
> their instrument in the first place.
I'd love to meet the harpist or any other orchestral player in
advance. Would that be violating the conditions of the competition? I
don't know any musicians from a professional orchestra at all, and
don't know how to contact them.
Peter T. Daniels
> > you have no business trying to write music.
>
> Absolutely true, perhaps more so than you realise; but if I don't then
> the music will never be played, and that would be a very great shame,
> the world needs it.
I did not say that. I said that if you can't tell when two instruments
are playing in tune with each other, _then_ ... .
Dr.Matt
I guess that about does it for The Bartered Bride and Beethoven's 7th, 8th,
and 9th symphonies then! :)
Peter T. Daniels
>
> In article <405E3D...@worldnet.att.net>,
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >David Paterson wrote:
> >
> >> > you have no business trying to write music.
> >>
> >> Absolutely true, perhaps more so than you realise; but if I don't then
> >> the music will never be played, and that would be a very great shame,
> >> the world needs it.
> >
> >I did not say that. I said that if you can't tell when two instruments
> >are playing in tune with each other, _then_ ... .
> >--
> >Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
>
> I guess that about does it for The Bartered Bride and Beethoven's 7th, 8th,
> and 9th symphonies then! :)
Eh? Are you confusing dissonance with tuning?
Dr.Matt
Nightingale
> In article <405ED5...@worldnet.att.net>,
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>Dr.Matt wrote:
>>
>>>In article <405E3D...@worldnet.att.net>,
>>>Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>David Paterson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>you have no business trying to write music.
>>>>>
>>>>>Absolutely true, perhaps more so than you realise; but if I don't then
>>>>>the music will never be played, and that would be a very great shame,
>>>>>the world needs it.
>>>>
>>>>I did not say that. I said that if you can't tell when two instruments
>>>>are playing in tune with each other, _then_ ... .
>>>>--
>>>>Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
>>>
>>>I guess that about does it for The Bartered Bride and Beethoven's 7th, 8th,
>>>and 9th symphonies then! :)
>>
>>Eh? Are you confusing dissonance with tuning?
>>--
>>Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
>
>
> Nope! And about that Eh business....
>
>
He's now Canadian, eh.
David Paterson
> In article <405E3D...@worldnet.att.net>,
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >David Paterson wrote:
> >
> >> > you have no business trying to write music.
> >>
> >> Absolutely true, perhaps more so than you realise; but if I don't then
> >> the music will never be played, and that would be a very great shame,
> >> the world needs it.
> >
> >I did not say that. I said that if you can't tell when two instruments
> >are playing in tune with each other, _then_ ... .
> >--
> >Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
>
> I guess that about does it for The Bartered Bride and Beethoven's 7th, 8th,
> and 9th symphonies then! :)
Beethoven wrote some of his best music after he was completely deaf;
which says a lot about the quality of his early work! :0
Just joking. The music I'm arranging is so excellent (delicate,
varied, consistent, beautiful, warming) that its true quality will
show through no matter how I stuff up the orchestral arrangement. Any
hack could do what I'm doing (either that or I have some native talent
that I'm totally unaware of). Strangely, I don't think I have made any
serious mistakes.
It's going very well. The second draft is now complete except for the
most difficult harp passage, this morning I moved 2 harp phrases into
bassoon (they're very fast, triplet semiquavers at crotchet=80, but
brief), and 4 clarinet and 2 bassoon notes into horn. I only started
the orchestral arrangement a little over 2 weeks ago.
The real challenge now is printing the thing. What software do you use
for printing? Price of software matters, eg. "Allegro" is far too
expensive. I record on an old version of Cakewalk Pro, which isn't
good enough.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> fie...@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu (Dr.Matt) wrote in message news:<Grs7c.3106$Nz2....@news.itd.umich.edu>...
> > In article <405E3D...@worldnet.att.net>,
> > Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > >David Paterson wrote:
> > >
> > >> > you have no business trying to write music.
> > >>
> > >> Absolutely true, perhaps more so than you realise; but if I don't then
> > >> the music will never be played, and that would be a very great shame,
> > >> the world needs it.
> > >
> > >I did not say that. I said that if you can't tell when two instruments
> > >are playing in tune with each other, _then_ ... .
> > >--
> > >Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
> >
> > I guess that about does it for The Bartered Bride and Beethoven's 7th, 8th,
> > and 9th symphonies then! :)
>
> Beethoven wrote some of his best music after he was completely deaf;
> which says a lot about the quality of his early work! :0
Oh, _that's_ what he was talking about!
Both Beethoven and Smetana knew what music, and presumably good
intonation, sounded like _before_ their deafness.
> Just joking. The music I'm arranging is so excellent (delicate,
> varied, consistent, beautiful, warming) that its true quality will
> show through no matter how I stuff up the orchestral arrangement. Any
> hack could do what I'm doing (either that or I have some native talent
> that I'm totally unaware of). Strangely, I don't think I have made any
> serious mistakes.
>
> It's going very well. The second draft is now complete except for the
> most difficult harp passage, this morning I moved 2 harp phrases into
> bassoon (they're very fast, triplet semiquavers at crotchet=80, but
> brief), and 4 clarinet and 2 bassoon notes into horn. I only started
> the orchestral arrangement a little over 2 weeks ago.
>
> The real challenge now is printing the thing. What software do you use
> for printing? Price of software matters, eg. "Allegro" is far too
> expensive. I record on an old version of Cakewalk Pro, which isn't
> good enough.
Dr.Matt
Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>David Paterson wrote:
>>
>> fie...@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu (Dr.Matt) wrote in message
>news:<Grs7c.3106$Nz2....@news.itd.umich.edu>...
>> > In article <405E3D...@worldnet.att.net>,
>> > Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> > >David Paterson wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> > you have no business trying to write music.
>> > >>
>> > >> Absolutely true, perhaps more so than you realise; but if I don't then
>> > >> the music will never be played, and that would be a very great shame,
>> > >> the world needs it.
>> > >
>> > >I did not say that. I said that if you can't tell when two instruments
>> > >are playing in tune with each other, _then_ ... .
>> > >--
>> > >Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
>> >
>> > I guess that about does it for The Bartered Bride and Beethoven's 7th, 8th,
>> > and 9th symphonies then! :)
>>
>> Beethoven wrote some of his best music after he was completely deaf;
>> which says a lot about the quality of his early work! :0
>
>Oh, _that's_ what he was talking about!
>
>Both Beethoven and Smetana knew what music, and presumably good
>intonation, sounded like _before_ their deafness.
>
Indeed, but both Bartered Bride and Beethoven's last few symphonies were
written by guys who had no business tuning instruments...
Joe Roberts
"Dr.Matt" wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Dr. Matt wrote:
>> Beethoven wrote some of his best music after he was completely deaf;
>> which says a lot about the quality of his early work! :0
>
>Oh, _that's_ what he was talking about!
> written by guys who had no business tuning instruments...
We just had our piano tuned. The fellow used an electronic gadget with
LEDs, set atop the piano, to tune it precisely. The whole job took a bit
less than an hour.
After he'd packed up his toolkit and gadgetry, he sat down and played some
Rachmaninoff with fluency, grace and beauty. Turns out he's moved here from
Russia where he'd given recitals. Now he's tuning pianos for a living,
using electronics for precise intonation. He's fully booked as a tuner, and
making a good income, judging from his price and the schedule for booking
him.
Odd observations might include:
... His sense of intonation might have been superb, but electronics is
faster.
... Beethoven and Smetana might have enjoyed watching the LEDs.
But especially:
... How does one get on in a profession without needing to return to
performance?
Joe
Peter T. Daniels
I understand that lots of piano tuners make it a condition of their
service that they get to play the instrument for a while after they're
done.
Their income may well be more certain than that of lower-grade
recitalists.
Dr.Matt
ooh, look at the pretty blinking lights!
>But especially:
>
> ... How does one get on in a profession without needing to return to
>performance?
Alas, hunger is a strong motivator.
David Paterson
I really don't understand you guys. What the heck does tuning
instruments have to do with writing music? Nothing, except to allow
for how fast instruments go out of tune in a sustained performance.
All that is really needed for orchestration is an appreciation of
beauty, an appreciation of the subtleties of chromatic harmony, an
appreciation of how instrument tone changes in different ranges and
when played in different ways, an appreciation of how tone colours
combine, and an awareness of performance difficulty.
That's all. Tuning doesn't come into it. The performers can tune their
own instruments. Well, some of them can :)
Alan Watkins
Electronic tuning gauges, although they have improved immeasurably
over the past decade, do not work for the timpani. It has been
claimed (and I do not know whether it is an accurate claim or not)
that the massive overtones confuse them. Whatever it is, they are not
reliable enough to use at the moment.
To add a further complication, a "true" note on the timpani can be
"bent" by the mallets in use and the force with which they are struck
and the particular choice of playing spot.
Re Smetana and Beethoven: There is probably a joke here which Old Chap
is too thick to appreciate but both wrote very challenging music to
play and Smetana, although in the shadow of Rimsky and Berlioz, was a
wonderful and innovative orchestrator.
For what it is worth (which, as usual, is probably not a lot) Smetana
in Ma Vlast wrote a part for the timpani that tests the player in
absolutely every technique of the instrument. It should be COMPULSORY
learning for every aspiring player of the instrument (and is for my
hapless students). Meanwhile Mr Beethoven in the Scherzo of Symphony
9 is COMPULSORY in all timpani auditions across the world so far as I
see because that ain't a roll...they are 32nd notes which are not too
easy to achieve on the timpani.
Thoughtlessly, both wrote note changes that do not give the player
enough time to get out any sort of electronic gauge and consult the
LED reading. Sadly this has been perpetuated by such disaparate
composers as Tchaikovsky and Britten.
Dr.Matt
Both Smetana and Beethoven wrote much of their most famous works after
becoming profoundly deaf. That's all.
Jaakko Mäntyjärvi
>
> For what it is worth (which, as usual, is probably not a lot) Smetana
> in Ma Vlast wrote a part for the timpani that tests the player in
> absolutely every technique of the instrument. It should be COMPULSORY
> learning for every aspiring player of the instrument (and is for my
> hapless students). Meanwhile Mr Beethoven in the Scherzo of Symphony
> 9 is COMPULSORY in all timpani auditions across the world so far as I
> see because that ain't a roll...they are 32nd notes which are not too
> easy to achieve on the timpani.
Um, the 32nd notes are in the first movement, not the scherzo. Now if
someone could actually play 32nd notes in the scherzo... THAT would be
something.
Alan Watkins
> Um, the 32nd notes are in the first movement, not the scherzo. Now if
> someone could actually play 32nd notes in the scherzo... THAT would be
> something.
Yes, I apologise for my mistake. However, the Scherzo does still
turn up in auditions all round the world and in 2004 remains
challenging writing.
David Paterson
"davyd" <d...@c.kom> wrote in message news:<tPK6c.13566$rQ.10153@lakeread04>...
> "David Paterson" <David.P...@csiro.au> wrote in message
> news:93e7f970.04031...@posting.google.com...
> > Can you refer me to a v. difficult harp piece so I can look at the
> > score and see how it was written? Otherwise I'll have to write the
> > score as Chopin would for piano.
>
> The "Danses sacre et profane" of Debussy might be a good model. I don't know
> that it's "fiendishly" difficult, since it seems like every harpist knows
> it.
That's it! I saw the score yesterday afternoon, and that of Mozart's
Flute & Harp concerto. My harp piece is about as difficult as
Mozart's; more chromatic but mostly slower; and is much easier than
"Danses sacre et profane" of Debussy. Debussy has the harp doing pedal
chages in 1/2 second while playing continuous arpeggios at nearly
twice the speed I ask for. I've already simplified our piece so no two
pedal changes are less than 1 second apart. Now I wish I hadn't
simplified it that much, but I doubt if even the composer will notice
the difference.
Whoever said 'change pedals during rests' has obviously never looked
at the Debussy score.
So what I've written is eminently playable by an average professional
harpist, just what I'm looking for. I could have trusted my own
judgement in the first place, but it's great to have confirmation.
Especially as I am an absolute amateur.
> > I can't follow your suggestion because I'm arranging this for an
> > orchestra of KNOWN composition. There are 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons, 1
> > harp and no piano, and I'm NOT allowed to add extra instruments. Life
> > would be much easier if I was allowed to add a piano or second harp
> > (or third bassoon to let the other two breathe in the toughest bassoon
> > part; can a bassoonist breathe in 6/10 of a second?).
>
> Yes, although there are limits as to how long you can expect one to go on
> doing so.
Yes, only twice in a row, I cover those notes on oboe. I think all the
wind and bress instruments can breath easily now.
> > I don't have any notes for timpani yet; I don't want to add any but
> > the orchestra says I must.
>
> If indeed you "must" use timpani, find out how many drums they will have on
> hand, and which sizes. That will partly determine how many notes you can
> write for them. Same goes double for any other percussion instruments.
I've decided not to use timpani. It doesn't fit anywhere in the piece.
If the timpani player wants, he/she can sit in the background and not
play a note.
I'd actually prefer to leave the tuba out as well, but have given it
three token notes, played softly in the final mini-tutti. The
mini-tutti follows a mini-cadenza on harp and is followed by three
final pairs of pp notes on harp and woodwinds. Sweet.
davyd
Cello & bassoon blend together quite well; you'd be surprised. Don't worry
overmuch about the dynamics; a skilled player will make it happen
regardless.
In setting up chords, you want to avoid muddiness. Notes below the middle of
the bass clef should be no closer together than a fifth, and preferably
farther apart. Trumpets don't blend well in their lower ranges (from middle
C on down).
If this is for a competition, then it probably would be against the rules to
approach members of the ensemble. On the other hand, if they are
professionals, they should be able to handle pretty much anything you can
throw at them, and since they're on the clock, they can't very well complain
unless the passage is truly unworkable.
Is there a university with a sizeable music department nearby? Perhaps you
could meet with the professors of various instruments, or with their more
outstanding students.
davidjohn...@gmail.com
> What's the most fiendishly difficult harp piece ever?
>
> I ask because I'm arranging a piano piece for symphony orchestra and
> am worried that 'I' may be writing the most fiendishly difficult harp
> piece ever. And it's not even for a soloist. I'm trying to make the
> harp part as simple as possible without losing any of the original
> piano notes.
>
> The harp plays rippling water for 16 bars under a birdsong in the
> flute. Crotchet is 80. I was originally going to score the rippling
> water for clarinet but it's way too fast for even the fastest
> clarinetist. The slowest harp notes are semiquavers, there are also 5
> in the time of 4, semiquaver triplets and demisemiquavers. The key
> modulates from 3 sharps to no sharps to 3 flats, and then modulates at
> least 2 more times. It's primarily up and down arpeggios with some
> glissandos and turn ornaments. Nothing is ever repeated.
>
> I got seriously worried when I had a descending triplet semiquaver
> arpeggio in the right hand and at the same time a much faster
> ascending 3 note arpeggio in the left hand. I'm still tossing up
> whether to make it triplet demisemiquaver (as originally played on
> piano) or slow it to demisemiquaver. Advice?
>
> I've done all I can think of (short of removing notes) to make the
> harp part easier. The lowest notes are being farmed out to pizzicato
> double bass and cello. On some beats I've added an extra semiquaver to
> give the harp a bit more time.
>
> I'm allowing at least one beat for each semitone pedal change. Is that
> long enough for a harp simultaneously playing presto?
>
> Look, I'm half tempted to remove all timing and tell the harp to 'play
> it as fast as you can', and let the harpist work out which hand plays.
> But there are problems with that, one is that the glissandos would be
> too fast, a second is the rare need for synchronisation between hands,
> a third is that the cello & double bass notes would have to be added
> back into the harp part, a fourth is that the original piano contains
> subtleties like accelerating for 3 beats and slowing for the 4th
> (which I'm handling now by adding an extra semiquaver to the slower
> beat).
>
> I can send anyone interested a 'gif' or 'ps' file of the harp part as
> it stands.
>
> HELP! Any advice welcome. How do I score this? I'm an absolute
> amateur. This is the first time I've arranged anything for orchestra.
The harp is chromatic, sure but they have seven foot pedals to change the pitch of the sets of strings from flat to natural to sharp. Each time a note changes pitch from that of the key signature requires a movement of ONE of these foot pedals. Harpists DO NOT use their little fingers, I know I played the harp years ago as a second study.
If you really want to get to know how to write effectively for the harp, study scores of Debussy, Ravel or Elgar (especially the two symphonies). Wagner had no idea and in fact Rhinegold's harp parts at the end of the opera are unplayable as written.
If you can, find your local harpist, buy him/her a coffee and spend a couple of hours getting to know what they like.
