Did Bartok Really Spoof Shostakovich?
Alain DAGHER
: In article <3fe86g$s...@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca>, Alain DAGHER <alain@grumio> wrote:
: >David M. Cook (dc...@linux5.ph.utexas.edu) wrote:
: >
: >: Well, I think the symphony itself stinks
: [stuff deleted]
: >Why do you think it stinks? You're not alone, by the way. I believe
: >Bartok felt the same and even quoted that theme (in derision) from the
: >first movement in one of his pieces (does anyone know which one?).
: Concerto for Orchestra, 4th movement. (There would be no way of knowing
: that this was a quote from #7 if B. hadn't said so himself; only a few
: notes from this theme is quoted.)
Is this true? Having researched the issue (not really) I notice that
Bartok's son Peter adamantly denied that his dad was quoting
Shostakovich. He claims he was quoting an old Viennese folk song.
I must say that listening to it, it really sounds as if he's making
fun of Shostakovich but who knows.
(Incidentally, I don't know about the rest of you, but I never know
what my father is up to, so I don't see why Peter Bartok should be any
different!)
Does anybody out there have any evidence one way or another?
--
Best wishes,
Alain Dagher "De la musique avant toute chose"
Montreal Neurological Institute
E-Mail: al...@pet.mni.mcgill.ca -Paul Verlaine
Christopher Barber
>>>>> "DH" == David Hillman <dhi...@pitt.edu>
DH> Concerto for Orchestra, 4th movement. (There would be no way of
DH> knowing that this was a quote from #7 if B. hadn't said so
DH> himself; only a few notes from this theme is quoted.)
AD> Is this true? Having researched the issue (not really) I notice
AD> that Bartok's son Peter adamantly denied that his dad was quoting
AD> Shostakovich. He claims he was quoting an old Viennese folk song.
AD> I must say that listening to it, it really sounds as if he's making
AD> fun of Shostakovich but who knows.
AD> Does anybody out there have any evidence one way or another?
I don't have any hard evidence, but I was told this pretty much as a fact
by a musicology professor who I greatly respected in college. In any
case, as soon as he mentioned this, I went and listened to the Sh #7
(which does nothing for me either) and think that the quote is pretty
obvious and the dates checked out also.
- Chris
--
Christopher Barber cba...@bbn.com http://guava.bbn.com/~cbarber
Gene Gandette
>This gets circular, because I've heard a further rumor that Shostakovich's
>theme was itself a Viennese song, whose banality (and nationality?) was
>supposed to suggest Hitler. --
Exactly - the "Let's All Go to Maxim's" tune from one of the Lehar
operettas. An interesting irony when you consider DSch's son was named
Maxim!
Gene
Nils-Eivind Naas
>Alain Dagher writes:
>
> : >Bartok felt the same and even quoted that theme (in derision) from the
> : >first movement in one of his pieces (does anyone know which one?).
>
> : Concerto for Orchestra, 4th movement. (There would be no way of knowing
>
> Bartok's son Peter adamantly denied that his dad was quoting
> Shostakovich. He claims he was quoting an old Viennese folk song.
>
>Shostakovich's theme was itself a Viennese song, whose banality (and
>nationality?) was supposed to suggest Hitler.
>--
>
Antal Dorati's autobiography leaves no doubt on the matter, if we
can believe that what he writes is the truth.
I have the book at home, so I can not quote him, but he leaves no doubt
that Bartok thought he quoted Shostakovich, and that it was deliberate.
--
Nils-Eivind Naas Mail: nils-eiv...@isaf.no
Manager, Computer Services
Institute Group for Social Research Tel.: +47 22 55 45 10
Munthesgt. 31 Fax: +47 22 43 13 85
0260 Oslo, Norway
Matt Calvert
> I must say that listening to it, it really sounds as if he's making
> fun of Shostakovich but who knows.
>
> (Incidentally, I don't know about the rest of you, but I never know
> what my father is up to, so I don't see why Peter Bartok should be any
> different!)
>
> Does anybody out there have any evidence one way or another?
>
Bartok is making fun of Ravel's "Bolero". He takes a tune (where he got
it somewhere or made it up, I don't know) that sounds tacky, for lack of a
better word, and plays it over and over through the orchestra. Even the
tuba plays it. The trombone glissandos in the middle are Bartok sticking
out his tongue at Ravel. It should be noted that I received this info by
word of mouth and I don't have any real evidence as to whether this was
truly Bartok's intention, but it sounds plausible to me.
--
_________/|
Matt Calvert (___|_____\|________
slid...@sirius.com _|__________)-
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Simple ain't easy"
-- Thelonious Monk
"I'll play it first and tell you what it is afterwards"
-- Miles Davis
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Nadel
> : >Bartok felt the same and even quoted that theme (in derision) from the
> : >first movement in one of his pieces (does anyone know which one?).
> : Concerto for Orchestra, 4th movement. (There would be no way of knowing
> Is this true? Having researched the issue (not really) I notice that
> Bartok's son Peter adamantly denied that his dad was quoting
> Shostakovich. He claims he was quoting an old Viennese folk song.
>This gets circular, because I've heard a further rumor that
>Shostakovich's theme was itself a Viennese song, whose banality (and
>nationality?) was supposed to suggest Hitler.
>--
As legend has it, Bartok indeed parodied Shostokovich. Supposedly Bartok's
concentration was broken by the music coming over the radio. He incorporated
it into the Concerto for Orchestra, 4th movement, which has the subtitle of
"The Interrupted Intermezzo". I do not think that Bartok and Shostakovich
were accidentally parodying a viennese song. Bartok was deriding Shostakovich.
Ron
Mike Quigley#2
>As legend has it, Bartok indeed parodied Shostokovich. Supposedly Bartok's
>concentration was broken by the music coming over the radio. He incorporated
>it into the Concerto for Orchestra, 4th movement, which has the subtitle of
>"The Interrupted Intermezzo". I do not think that Bartok and Shostakovich
>were accidentally parodying a viennese song. Bartok was deriding Shostakovich.
A friend tells me that Shostakovich returned the favor by making use of
a brief passage from Bartok's Sonata for 2 Pianos and Percussion in his
(DS's) 13th Symphony...
Roger Dobrick
on the Concerto and that he heard it on th radio.
There was a big flap at the time over who would do the U.S. premiere--
the score had been smuggled out of the USSR via microfilm, and given
the 7th's thematic connection to the War, there was quite a bit of
interest in it.
I think Stokowski (or maybe Koussevitzky) was supposed to do the
premiere, but Toscanini lobbied heavily for it, and he did premiere it
in a broadcast with the NBC.
One account I read suggested that Bartok, living in relative obscurity
and dying of leukemia, was upset over all this attention heaped on the
7th, and the "Bronx Cheers" in the 4th mvt of the concerto was his
editorial comment on the whole affair.
Incidentally, a few months before he died, Toscanini's son Walter played
his recording of the 7th for him. He didn't recognize it, and when told
that the conductor was him, he is supposed to have commented that he
must have been crazy for performing the work.
Peter Dorman
politically and culturally. He participated in the 1918 Bela Kun
insurrection in Hungary and made a concert/teaching trip to Russia
during the 1920s. I haven't read any of the biographical accounts of
his later views, but it would be hard to imagine that he wasn't deeply
disappointed in the turn taken by the Soviet Union. Could this have
been an contributing factor in his decision to poke fun of Shostakovich?
--
Peter Dorman
HenryFogel
Bartok that he was indeed spoofing the Shostakovich -- partly out of
frustration. Remember that Bartok was not a composer who had achieved true
popularity; Shostakovich's Seventh, during the War, was immensely popular
-- it was played everywhere and had become a call to arms. I believe that
it is credible that Bartok was frustrated by this, and that his parody of
the oft-repeated theme in the Shostakovich should be seen in that light.
Henry Fogel
Bryan Higgins
>Alain Dagher writes:
> : >Bartok felt the same and even quoted that theme (in derision) from the
> : >first movement in one of his pieces (does anyone know which one?).
> : Concerto for Orchestra, 4th movement. (There would be no way of knowing
> Is this true? Having researched the issue (not really) I notice that
> Bartok's son Peter adamantly denied that his dad was quoting
> Shostakovich. He claims he was quoting an old Viennese folk song.
>This gets circular, because I've heard a further rumor that
>Shostakovich's theme was itself a Viennese song, whose banality (and
>nationality?) was supposed to suggest Hitler.
Antal Dorati claims to have heard from the horse's mouth that it was indeed
Shostakovich (7th sym, 1st mvt). (The suspected Viennese song is by Lehar, I
think).
--
Bryan Higgins, Berkeley, California (br...@well.com, br...@netcom.com)
Jim Clow
>>>>>> "AD" == Alain DAGHER <alain@bottom>
>>>>>> "DH" == David Hillman <dhi...@pitt.edu>
>
> DH> Concerto for Orchestra, 4th movement. (There would be no way of
> DH> knowing that this was a quote from #7 if B. hadn't said so
> DH> himself; only a few notes from this theme is quoted.)
>
> AD> Is this true? Having researched the issue (not really) I notice
> AD> that Bartok's son Peter adamantly denied that his dad was quoting
> AD> Shostakovich. He claims he was quoting an old Viennese folk song.
>
>
fibbing or Peter changes his story.
Quoting from Steven Ledbetter's notes in the Previn/LAPO Telarc
recording, "...(According to the composer's son Peter, Bartok heard a
radio broadcast of the Shostakovich piece and decided to burlesque it in
his own work with nose-thumbing jibes from the woodwinds and raspberries
from the low brass.)"
Sounds like it to me, too.
>I don't have any hard evidence, but I was told this pretty much as a fact
>by a musicology professor who I greatly respected in college. In any
>case, as soon as he mentioned this, I went and listened to the Sh #7
>(which does nothing for me either) and think that the quote is pretty
>obvious and the dates checked out also.
Jim Clow
Alain DAGHER
: What source do you have for Peter's denial? One of Peter's reporters is
: fibbing or Peter changes his story.
It is from the liner notes of the Mercury Living Presence CD
(conducted by Antal Dorati).
Anyway, now I'm convinced that it really was a spoof.
Jack Campin
Someshere I read that one of the other themes in this movement (the B
theme?) was derived from an operetta by Kalman. If that's true it would
tend to support the DSCH-had-nothing-to-do-with-it theory.
Incidentally, has anybody but me ever noticed that the canonic string
theme in the last movement is a straight quote of a Romanian folk tune?
--
-- Jack Campin -- Room 1.36, Dept. of Computing & EE, Heriot-Watt University,
Riccarton, Edinburgh EH14 4AS WWW: http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~jack/jack.html
Internet: ja...@cee.hw.ac.uk Phone: 031 449 5111 ext 4195 Fax: 031 451 3431
Home phone: 031 556 5272 Home Internet: ja...@purr.demon.co.uk
Rick Scherer
Viennese song is that he (Bartok) wrote his parody his the very same key
as Shostakovich's original.
Rick Scherer
Daniel Paul Horn
I wish I had a better memory for the details, and I also wish I had
followed up on the suggestion, but in a course I took from him, Vincent
Persichetti claimed not only that Bart!k was indeed quoting DSCH in the
Concerto for Orchestra, but that Bart!k also makes a number of other
allusions in the work to various pieces of new music he heard over the
radio while in process of composing it. I remember Paul Nordoff being
one of the composers Persichetti mentioned.
Daniel Paul Horn
Jan Swafford
to the Shostakovich 7th on radio and dad was appalled by the redundancies of
the movement with the tune (which may be a quote of Shostakovich's own).
I don't think there's much doubt that the Bartok movement is a parody,
then. It's complete with raspberries, in fact--you can almost hear him
sticking his thumbs in his ears and wagging his fingers.
Jan Swafford
Nils-Eivind Naas
According to Dorati's autobiography, it was rather a question of
musical/personal disappointment/jealousy.
Bartok apparently studied the score, and could not understand or
stomach the enormous popularity of this mediocre music,
compared to his own.
For what it is worth, my sympathy is all on his side :-)
Laurence Key
Chris Brewster <c...@cray.com> wrote:
>Alain Dagher writes:
>
> : >Bartok felt the same and even quoted that theme (in derision) from the
> : >first movement in one of his pieces (does anyone know which one?).
>
>nationality?) was supposed to suggest Hitler.
The Shostakovich work is Symphony No. 7 "Leningrad", 1st movement.
Listen to it and you'll hear the descending scale fragment many times.
The Shostakovitch is rhythmically strict. Bartok adds accelerando and a
"walking bass." Maybe he noticed the similarity to "I'm going to
Maxim's" from Lehar's The Merry Widow himself?
Laurence W. Key
fehs...@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com
flut...@gigue.peabody.jhu.edu (Laurence Key) writes:
>you'll hear the descending scale fragment many times.
This prompts me to ask how often simple scales are used as thematic material.
(I remember an old saw about Tchaikovsky that all his music was just scales.)
Some examples I can think of:
Tchaikovsky - one of the numbers from the Nutcracker
Beethoven - Synphony No. 1, last movement
Strauss (R.) - Alpensinfonie (summit theme?)
Bruckner - completed 4th movement of 9th symphony
Any other examples people can think of?
len.
Bobschaaf
> Any other examples people can think of?
One of the 2 Weber symphonies (I don't recall which.)
The second theme of the first movement.
Dumb.
from Wall Street,
Bob Schaaf
David Bluestone
Nils-Eivind Naas
>The Shostakovich work is Symphony No. 7 "Leningrad", 1st movement.
>Listen to it and you'll hear the descending scale fragment many times.
>The Shostakovitch is rhythmically strict. Bartok adds accelerando and a
>"walking bass." Maybe he noticed the similarity to "I'm going to
>Maxim's" from Lehar's The Merry Widow himself?
>
> Laurence W. Key
I am sorry about dragging out Dorati's autobiography once again, but he
describes a meeting with Bartok where the latter plays this excerpt from
the Concerto for Orchestra, and asks: Do you recognise this? And Dorati
suggests The Merry Widow, only to be met with a blank stare ;
Dorati concludes that Bartok knew of neither Lehar nor the Widow!
Gabriel M. Kuper
> In <3gll6q$o...@jhunix1.hcf.jhu.edu>, flut...@gigue.peabody.jhu.edu (Laurence Key) writes:
>
> >The Shostakovich work is Symphony No. 7 "Leningrad", 1st movement.
> >Listen to it and you'll hear the descending scale fragment many times.
> >The Shostakovitch is rhythmically strict. Bartok adds accelerando and a
> >"walking bass." Maybe he noticed the similarity to "I'm going to
> >Maxim's" from Lehar's The Merry Widow himself?
> >
> > Laurence W. Key
>
> I am sorry about dragging out Dorati's autobiography once again, but he
> describes a meeting with Bartok where the latter plays this excerpt from
> the Concerto for Orchestra, and asks: Do you recognise this? And Dorati
> suggests The Merry Widow, only to be met with a blank stare ;
> Dorati concludes that Bartok knew of neither Lehar nor the Widow!
If you had written what you thought was a parody of Shostakovitch, had asked
somebody what it was, and had received this answer, how would you have reacted?
Even if you knew of the Merry Widow? I don't find this very convincing,
unless there's more to it.
Gabriel Kuper
Mike Quigley#2
Bartok did spoof Shostakovich in the Concerto For Orchestra.
Toscanini's version of the Leningrad Symphony was playing quite often on
the radio, pissing Bartok off while he was in hospital in New York at the
time. This is related in full on page 282 of Halsey Stevens' book The
Life And Music Of Bela Bartok and followed up with a further note on page
322 which says that Peter Bartok related this information in a CBS radio
broadcast on September 19, 1948.
It should be noted that, in Adam Stern's notes for the Seattle Symphony
Orchestra recording of the Concerto For Orchestra, that Shostakovich
"returned the favour" to Bartok by grotesquely parodying a theme from
Bartok's Sonata For Two Pianos And Percussion in the second movement of
his Symphony No. 13, the "Babi Yar" symphony.
Deryk Barker
: A friend of mine writes the following regarding this thread:
: Bartok did spoof Shostakovich in the Concerto For Orchestra.
: Toscanini's version of the Leningrad Symphony was playing quite often on
: the radio, pissing Bartok off while he was in hospital in New York at the
: time.
Presumably Bartok was unaware that Toscanini's version of the
Leningrad also pissed off Shostakovich.....
--
Deryk.
===========================================================================
|Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept. | Across the pale parabola of Joy |
|Camosun College, Victoria, BC, Canada | |
|email: dba...@camosun.bc.ca | Ralston McTodd |
|phone: +1 604 370 4452 | (Songs of Squalor). |
===========================================================================
davi...@live.it
> David Hillman (dhi...@pitt.edu) wrote:
> : In article <3fe86g$s...@sifon.cc.mcgill.ca>, Alain DAGHER <alain@grumio> wrote:
> : >David M. Cook (dc...@linux5.ph.utexas.edu) wrote:
> : >
> : >: Well, I think the symphony itself stinks
>
> : [stuff deleted]
>
> : >Why do you think it stinks? You're not alone, by the way. I believe
> : >first movement in one of his pieces (does anyone know which one?).
>
> : that this was a quote from #7 if B. hadn't said so himself; only a few
>
>
> fun of Shostakovich but who knows.
>
> (Incidentally, I don't know about the rest of you, but I never know
> what my father is up to, so I don't see why Peter Bartok should be any
> different!)
>
> Does anybody out there have any evidence one way or another?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Alain Dagher "De la musique avant toute chose"
> Montreal Neurological Institute
> E-Mail: al...@pet.mni.mcgill.ca -Paul Verlaine
joakim....@gmail.com
John W Kennedy
> On Wednesday, February 1, 1995 at 5:22:20 PM UTC+1, fehs...@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com wrote:
>> flut...@gigue.peabody.jhu.edu (Laurence Key) writes:
>>
>>> you'll hear the descending scale fragment many times.
>>
>> This prompts me to ask how often simple scales are used as thematic material.
>> (I remember an old saw about Tchaikovsky that all his music was just scales.)
>> Some examples I can think of:
>>
>> Tchaikovsky - one of the numbers from the Nutcracker
Tchaikovsky did it on a bet.
>> Beethoven - Synphony No. 1, last movement
>> Strauss (R.) - Alpensinfonie (summit theme?)
>> Bruckner - completed 4th movement of 9th symphony
>>
>> Any other examples people can think of?
>>
>> len.
>
> Everybody uses scales and sequences. Without them, there would be very few symphonies, opera arias, or solo concertos.
>
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
Peter T. Daniels
> On 2/20/17 10:15 AM, joakim....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 1, 1995 at 5:22:20 PM UTC+1, fehs...@ljsrv2.enet.dec.com wrote:
> >> flut...@gigue.peabody.jhu.edu (Laurence Key) writes:
> >>
> >>> you'll hear the descending scale fragment many times.
> >>
> >> This prompts me to ask how often simple scales are used as thematic material.
> >> (I remember an old saw about Tchaikovsky that all his music was just scales.)
> >> Some examples I can think of:
> >>
> >> Tchaikovsky - one of the numbers from the Nutcracker
>
> Assuming that you mean the adagio of the pas de deux, the story is that
> Tchaikovsky did it on a bet.
>
> >> Beethoven - Synphony No. 1, last movement
> >> Strauss (R.) - Alpensinfonie (summit theme?)
> >> Bruckner - completed 4th movement of 9th symphony
> >>
> >> Any other examples people can think of?
have contributed to this thread. There's a delightful performance with organ and orchestra on
Philips by Pierre Cochereau (of all the Bach organ concertos) -- it was never transferred to CD.
Cochereau's disciple and promoter Jeremy Filsell, who played an organ recital at Trinity Church
Wall Street a decade or so ago (including transcriptions of Cochereau improvisations) had
never heard of it.