John Williams, Star Wars, & Brahms Piano Concerto #1
James Lynch
As related J. Williams question, did he get permission for this lift?
Does he have an original idea?
Daniel M. Israel
The Imperial March from Star Wars and Superman both lift from the
famous Liszt Piano Sonata. A good friend of mine managed to play all
three smoothly together in one "John Williams stole all his ideas
Suite".
--
Daniel M. Israel "SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING: Quitting
<cr...@vulcan.giss.nasa.gov> smoking now greatly reduces risk of
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2880 Broadway, New York, NY What did it do before now?
jl...@opal.tufts.edu
>
> As related J. Williams question, did he get permission for this lift?
> Does he have an original idea?
What lift? I recall someone likening the _Star Wars_ theme to the first
major orchestral tutti from the 2nd Piano Concerto, though I wasn't as
impressed by the similarity. The major lifts that I can think of are the Darth
Vader theme from _Return_, which reminds me of the Funeral March from Chopin's
2nd Sonata, and something or another lifted from "Jupiter," from Holst's
Planets. Permission doesn't matter, though; it's all public domain.
Lifting from classical composers isn't peculiar to John Williams. A goodly
portion of the musical vocabulary which can be heard in Bernard Herrmann scores
can be found in Ravel's Rapsodie Espagnole (try listening to it after watching
Alfred Hitchcock's _Vertigo_ or Scorsese's remake of _Cape Fear_ and you'll see
what I mean). But they're good at their lifting.
/James Liu (jl...@opal.tufts.edu)
Peter Stahl
In article <2od9pl$b...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, ly...@corona.math.vt.edu writes:
>
> As related J. Williams question, did he get permission for this lift?
> Does he have an original idea?
Actually it's a much more proximate lift from the film score to
"King's Road." The name of the composer of that now escapes me,
but the theme went something like this (making up some notation...)
h h | e e h 3 3 3 | q e e q. e | h. 3 3 3 | h q. e | q
4/4 C G | F E D D E F | E D C D C | C C C C | B A B | C' etc...
h=half note
q=quarter note
e=eighth note
3=eighth triplet
all notes in the same C-C' octave
Note that the fifth measure here uses the same B-natural over F-major that
Williams used in the main theme to "Superman."
Peter Stahl
Ivis Reed Bohlen
writes:
> What lift? I recall someone likening the _Star Wars_ theme to the
first
>major orchestral tutti from the 2nd Piano Concerto, though I wasn't as
>impressed by the similarity. The major lifts that I can think of are
the Darth
>Vader theme from _Return_, which reminds me of the Funeral March from
Chopin's
>2nd Sonata, and something or another lifted from "Jupiter," from Holst's
>Planets. Permission doesn't matter, though; it's all public domain.
And all this time I've been thinking they're from Prokofiev's "Love for
Three Oranges" and something by Poulenc....(BTW, their music seems a
little recent to be in public domain; isn't it 50 years, which would make
1929 a cutoff date for Star Wars use (1979?) and I thought the Poulenc
was more recent--please don't flame me, I'm not real good at remembering
dates)
Wouldn't it be great...if some expert put all this into a mini-FAQ?
Ivis Reed Bohlen
irbo...@med.unc.edu
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
*opinions mine*
IguanaD
<<The major lifts that I can think of are the Darth
Vader theme from _Return_, which reminds me of the Funeral March from Chopin's
2nd Sonata, and something or another lifted from "Jupiter," from Holst's
Planets.>>
The "Darth Vader" theme actually comes from an obscure band march by Samuel
Barber (the title slips my mind at this moment...) which is in the low brass.
JW doesn't hasn't an original thought for years.
DG
Kelly Sedinger
>
> As related J. Williams question, did he get permission for this lift?
> Does he have an original idea?
To which lift are you referring?
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====================================================
Michel Hafner
>
>The Imperial March from Star Wars and Superman both lift from the
>famous Liszt Piano Sonata. A good friend of mine managed to play all
>three smoothly together in one "John Williams stole all his ideas
>Suite".
Sonata in h minor?
Please be more specific. Where in the sonata? I can't hear any special resem-
blance.
MH
--
Michel Hafner |\ /||\ /|| Email: haf...@ifi.unizh.ch
Dept. of Computer Science | \/ || \/ || Tel.: +41 1 257 4317
University of Zurich | || ||____ Fax: +41 1 363 0035
Switzerland_________________________________Telex: 817 251 unii ch
Kent Strahlen
Michel Hafner <haf...@ifi.unizh.ch> wrote:
>In article <2oeu3e$g...@vulcan.giss.nasa.gov> cr...@vulcan.giss.nasa.gov (Daniel M. Israel) writes:
>>
>>The Imperial March from Star Wars and Superman both lift from the
>>famous Liszt Piano Sonata. A good friend of mine managed to play all
>>three smoothly together in one "John Williams stole all his ideas
>>Suite".
>
>Sonata in h minor?
>Please be more specific. Where in the sonata? I can't hear any special resem-
>blance.
>
I do not agree that Williams stole all his ideas, he was inspired
by certain pieces though. Lending ideas is something not very unusual in
music, if STAR WARS had been composed in 1880 by now nobody would
accuse Williams of steeling. If you want some examples of
melody-lending try:
Liszt:Bergssinfonie(beginning)--Dvorak:symphony no. 4 (1:st movement)
Beethoven:symphony no. 9 -- Schubert:symphony no. 9 (well known example)
Rossini: Il Barbier di Siviglia overture--Stravinsky:Card games
Dvorak:Cellokonc.(mv 3)--Bruckner:Symph 4 (mv 4)--Bruckner:Symph 7 (mv3)
Or why not the beginning of Beethovens fifth versus beginning of Mahlers
fifth, the ideas are not to far from each other (trumpet/horn going ba-ba-ba-
baa).
If you want an example of composers of film-music that really steals try
Bill Conti:The Right Stuff, and suddenly you are in the middle of
Tschaikowsky's violin concerto (even the orchestration is the same).
In fact I regard John Williams as one of the great composers of
this century, carrying on the traditions of the great romantics. Really
STAR WARS is nothing but a Wagner opera except the singing being
replaced by speaking. Williams leitmotif-technique is very clear, and where
dear ol' Wagner would have put a thunderclap, STAR WARS has a sound-effect
and an ILM-explosion. I have a strong feeling that the themes of Williams
will outlive works by so called serious composers like Stockhausen etc..
/KENT
David Brooks
>JW doesn't hasn't an original thought for years.
Well, I thought parts of the Jurassic Park score were quite well done.
But I only just spotted the main theme from Schindler's List: it is a
pretty undisguised lift of one of the pervasive themes of the Mahler 8th
symphony. Am I the last to notice? Mahler-Faust, hmmm.
--
David Brooks dbr...@ics.com
Integrated Computer Solutions
IO2...@maine.maine.edu
Williams, he may have stole, but he stole genius.
Caputo John
things. First of all, it seems very interesting to me that John William's
themes remind different people of different things- just look at Star Wars,
and how many images that conjured up for different people. There were
observations as varied as Brahms, Mahler, and Holst. This, if nothing else,
has to say something for Williams as a composer in his own right (he's not a
thief- he just gets very... inspired). This is not to say that I'm defending
the man, but I do find him to be a wonderful orchestrator and a good thematic
composer. However, overall, I think his music (as a whole) is repetitive and
somewhat unremarkable. There are exceptions- Jurassic Park, for example, has
some wonderful moments of creativity. But the bottom line is this- the man
makes one feel something when you are watching the movie. Think of Star Wars
without the Imperial March sometime. It just doesn't work as well. His
music adds something to the movies it is composed for. As a film composer,
isn't that his job?
The second thing I have to bring up is that age-old debate of "absolute
music". Many people criticized Shostakovich for using major themes of
well-known works unabashedly in his Symphony #15. This whole discussion has
kind of brought that whole topic up again. Is it truly "creative" to use
themes of other composers in one's works?
Cappy
Duquesne University
Euphoniumist and Questioner Of Authority
John
While film composers have stolen things, some people here go way too far with
all the connections between film scores and themes from classical works.
If you listen to just classical works, you'll find, from composer to composer,
similar themes and passages. Certain pleasing combinations will turn up
again and again. But no one on this list accuses Beethoven of stealing from
Mozart, or Schubert from Beethoven, or Strauss from Wagner, etc. If you want
to start looking for such passages, they are everywhere, not just in JW's
music for George Lucas/Steven Spielberg films...
John
Mike Quigley
zo...@astro.ocis.temple.edu (John) writes:
Hear! Hear!
ell...@delphi.com
>composer. However, overall, I think his music (as a whole) is repetitive and
>somewhat unremarkable. There are exceptions- Jurassic Park, for example, has
>some wonderful moments of creativity. But the bottom line is this- the man
temp-tracked with several other movie scores (including Williams' own JFK
, stuff by Jerry Goldsmith, and Patrick Doyle's HENRY V). I found JP to be
rather dull and derivative, if you ask me, and I could distinctly hear the
influences of these other film scores in the JP score.
97...@williams.edu
[snip]
>The second thing I have to bring up is that age-old debate of "absolute
>music". Many people criticized Shostakovich for using major themes of
>well-known works unabashedly in his Symphony #15. This whole discussion has
>kind of brought that whole topic up again. Is it truly "creative" to use
>themes of other composers in one's works?
I would argue that, if one writes in a tonal idiom, it is almost
impossible *not* to use themes of other composers, perhaps modified in some
way (maybe a passing tone here, and a slight change in rhythm elsewhere), in
one's work, though, of course, it is usually done inadverdently. This is
merely because so much music has been written already. So using them
explicitly is merely being honest about it.
Besides, themes and melodies are only one component of music; there
are many other elements to be creative in.
-Smiley
(Alexand...@williams.edu)
Kirksey, Kenton Brett
I became interested in classical music because of John William and still
very much enjoy his work. Because of my inexperience in classical, I did not
realize that he was inspired/borrowed/coincidently has similarities with
previous classical works. I would like to hear them. Could someone let me
know which ones he appears to be inspired by?
Thanks,
Brett Kirksey
Mike Quigley
(Kirksey, Kenton Brett) writes:
> I became interested in classical music because of John William and
> still
> very much enjoy his work. Because of my inexperience in classical, I did
> not
> realize that he was inspired/borrowed/coincidently has similarities with
> previous classical works. I would like to hear them. Could someone let
> me
> know which ones he appears to be inspired by?
Groan! Do we have to re-run this thread again??
Ray Richards
04-18-94 at 18:14
E > >Message-ID: <ZQ+tzca...@delphi.com>
E >Newsgroup: rec.music.classical
E >Organization: Delphi (in...@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)
E >
E >Caputo John <CAPUT...@duq3.cc.duq.edu> writes:
E >
E >>composer. However, overall, I think his music (as a whole) is repeti
E >>somewhat unremarkable. There are exceptions- Jurassic Park, for exam
E >>some wonderful moments of creativity. But the bottom line is this- t
E >
E >Funny you should think JURASSIC PARK sounds more creative. The movie
E >temp-tracked with several other movie scores (including Williams' own
E >, stuff by Jerry Goldsmith, and Patrick Doyle's HENRY V). I found JP
E >rather dull and derivative, if you ask me, and I could distinctly hear
E >influences of these other film scores in the JP score.
I'll have to agree with you here...I found Jurassic Park rather
uninspired...not that I'm over-fond of Williams anyway.
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