Ludwig Van Beethoven
Rory2
Sorry to be a pest, but can anyone tell me the proper way to pronounce the name
"Beethoven"? I've heard it pronounced different ways. e.g.,
BAY toffen
BEE to-ven
Beeth-ahven
I know that Beethoven was German but the name doesn't really seem German, does
it? Seems more like Dutch to me. What do you think?
Rory
David Bluestone
(Rory2) wrote:
Might I humbly suggest you start at the beginning, with Ludwig?
David
John S Mamoun
Maybe it is:
Loot-vig Vahn Bay-thoven
I don't know much about German, but I hear
that there is no double-u sound in the
language. So a German would say "Vatermelon"
instead of "Watermelon."
Colin Rosenthal
You pronounce the last two syllables as "thoven"? Really?
--
Colin Rosenthal
High Altitude Observatory
Boulder, Colorado
rose...@hao.ucar.edu
Scott Taylor
Rory2 wrote:
> Sorry to be a pest, but can anyone tell me the proper way to pronounce the name
> "Beethoven"? I've heard it pronounced different ways. e.g.,
>
> BAY toffen
> BEE to-ven
> Beeth-ahven
>
> I know that Beethoven was German but the name doesn't really seem German, does
> it? Seems more like Dutch to me. What do you think?
>
> Rory
I'd agree with number one, since German "v" pronounced like English "f".
-Scott
Margaret Mikulska
To add my 2 Pfennig: It's pronounced like "f" in Germanic words, but not
in borrowings from non-Germanic languages. They don't say, for
instance, "Fioline" for "Violine".
(Beethoven's name is Dutch/Flemish, though, thus Germanic.)
-Margaret
Peter H. Granzeau
wrote:
>Maybe it is:
>
>Loot-vig Vahn Bay-thoven
>
>I don't know much about German, but I hear
>that there is no double-u sound in the
>language. So a German would say "Vatermelon"
>instead of "Watermelon."
There's no "th" in German, either.
Lootvick vahn Bay-tofen would probably be about as close as most
Americans could get it. The name is Dutch or Flemish, of course.
Not only is there no "w" sound, the "v" sound is pronounced as an "f".
Hence, "VW" in German is pronounced "fah vay"; the complete word is
pronounced "folksvahgen".
Regards, PHG
(To reply by mail, send to my initials at the same site)
Jason Sifford
Margaret Mikulska wrote in message
<361D22...@silvertone.princeton.edu>...
Margaret Mikulska
> There's no "th" in German, either.
Strictly speaking, "th" was used, in many words, in the past (until the
late 19th C) instead of plain "t". But "Beethoven", apart from not
being a German name, is parsed "beet-hoven".
> Lootvick vahn Bay-tofen would probably be about as close as most
> Americans could get it. The name is Dutch or Flemish, of course.
I'm not sure why most people in this thread insist on /t/ in "Ludwig".
Since "w" represents the voiced sound /v/, the preceding "d" remains
voiced.
-Margaret
Art Vandelay
Loot'-veech fahn Bay'-tohf-hen
the "eech" in "Loot'-veech" being a soft version of "ich"...you know,
that German throat sound. :) (Which, BTW, is grossly over-exaggerated
by non-German speakers. It's not so loud, and actually close to a "sh"
sound. ;)
The "fahn" being kind of short and bell shaped (rising volume a little
in the middle)
The "h" in "hen" being very subtle, and partially due to the German
accent.
Also said overall with a German accent
Those are the main points I can think of now.
On Thu, 08 Oct 1998 22:44:37 GMT, pgr...@exis.net (Peter H. Granzeau)
spoke with an unheard of eloquence and grace:
>On 8 Oct 1998 13:58:53 GMT, js...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (John S Mamoun)
>wrote:
>
>>Maybe it is:
>>
>>Loot-vig Vahn Bay-thoven
>>
>>I don't know much about German, but I hear
>>that there is no double-u sound in the
>>language. So a German would say "Vatermelon"
>>instead of "Watermelon."
>
>There's no "th" in German, either.
>
>Lootvick vahn Bay-tofen would probably be about as close as most
>Americans could get it. The name is Dutch or Flemish, of course.
>
Art Vandelay
<miku...@silvertone.princeton.edu> spoke with an unheard of eloquence
and grace:
>Peter H. Granzeau wrote:
>
>> There's no "th" in German, either.
>
>Strictly speaking, "th" was used, in many words, in the past (until the
>late 19th C) instead of plain "t". But "Beethoven", apart from not
>being a German name, is parsed "beet-hoven".
>
>> Lootvick vahn Bay-tofen would probably be about as close as most
>> Americans could get it. The name is Dutch or Flemish, of course.
>
>I'm not sure why most people in this thread insist on /t/ in "Ludwig".
>Since "w" represents the voiced sound /v/, the preceding "d" remains
>voiced.
>
>-Margaret
The "d" is kind of sharp, I think, so it is easier to write it "t".
And the "Lood" part shouldn't so much be "Lood", but something similar
and kind of undescribable, I believe. :)
Joyce Maier
Margaret Mikulska wrote:<361D22...@silvertone.princeton.edu>...
>> I'd agree with number one, since German "v" pronounced like English "f".
>
>To add my 2 Pfennig: It's pronounced like "f" in Germanic words, but not
>in borrowings from non-Germanic languages. They don't say, for
>instance, "Fioline" for "Violine".
>
>(Beethoven's name is Dutch/Flemish, though, thus Germanic.)
>
>-Margaret
To add my pedantic 2 cent: the correct Dutch spelling is Ludwig van
Beethoven, not Ludwig Van Beethoven, though sometimes these days on the
Flemish television the word "van" in a name like his is spelled with a
capital. But in Dutch the capital is only used when the first name is left
out. Most Dutch call the composer "Beethoven" and right so, for he was a
German, but from a strictly Dutch point of view the man's name is "Van
Beethoven. So we can choose:
Ludwig van Beethoven was a German composer, or
Van Beethoven was a German composer, or
Beethoven was a German composer.
Regards,
Joyce Maier (j...@dds.nl)
Frank Van den Heuvel
>
> Sorry to be a pest, but can anyone tell me the proper way to pronounce the name
> "Beethoven"? I've heard it pronounced different ways. e.g.,
>
> BAY toffen
> BEE to-ven
> Beeth-ahven
>
> I know that Beethoven was German but the name doesn't really seem German, does
> it? Seems more like Dutch to me. What do you think?
>
> Rory
I'm sure most responses are well intended but unfortunately wrong.
Van Beethoven is a Flemish name and there are still people named like
that in
Flanders. Indeed, the full name is "Van Beethoven", like most of the
flemish
names it indicates a place of origin of the person. The meaning is: a
person
living on a particular kind of farm "hof; plural: hoven". All "v's" in
flemish are
pronounced like in violin. An "h" is pronounced fully in flemish like in
"hashbrown"
"th" does not have a particular sound in flemish. The fact that they
occur together in
this case is because Beethoven is a combination of two words "Beet" and
"Hoven".
The Beet is pronocounced like "bait" as in "fishing bait". The hoven is
pronounced more like the
rover in Range Rover. The last "n" is not silent.
Finally, the way to cut words in this case is as follows:
"Van Bait-hoven".
Ludwig on the other hand is a German name, and as he grew up and was
raised in that country
it most likely is the German prononciation we need to follow Lud-vig
(again v as in violin).
Hope this helps
Frank Van den Heuvel
(Frank From The Hill!)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
Frank Van den Heuvel Ph.D.,D.A.B.M.P. vand...@kci.wayne.edu
ROC Harper Hospital Voice: (313) 745 24 66
Karmanos Cancer Institute Fax: (313) 745 23 14
Wayne State University
3990 John R., Detroit, MI 48201
Bill Bailer
>I'm sure most responses are well intended but unfortunately wrong.
>Van Beethoven is a Flemish name and there are still people named like
>that in
>Flanders. Indeed, the full name is "Van Beethoven", like most of the
>flemish
>names it indicates a place of origin of the person. The meaning is: a
>person
>living on a particular kind of farm "hof; plural: hoven". All "v's" in
>flemish are
>pronounced like in violin. An "h" is pronounced fully in flemish like in
>"hashbrown"
>"th" does not have a particular sound in flemish. The fact that they
>occur together in
>this case is because Beethoven is a combination of two words "Beet" and
>"Hoven".
>The Beet is pronocounced like "bait" as in "fishing bait". The hoven is
>pronounced more like the
>rover in Range Rover. The last "n" is not silent.
>Finally, the way to cut words in this case is as follows:
>
>"Van Bait-hoven".
><snip>
>Frank Van den Heuvel
>(Frank From The Hill!)
Since Beethoven was German, not Flemish, what is the relevance of how
his last name was pronounced in Flanders? Even Beethoven may not
have known how his name was pronounced in Flanders. Isn't the real
question: How did Beethoven pronounce his own name, in Germany?
Bill Bailer
wba...@cris.com, Rochester NY USA, tel:716-473-9556
Acoustics, piano technology, music theory, JSBach
Joyce Maier
Bill Bailer wrote:
>Since Beethoven was German, not Flemish, what is the relevance of how
>his last name was pronounced in Flanders? Even Beethoven may not
>have known how his name was pronounced in Flanders. Isn't the real
>question: How did Beethoven pronounce his own name, in Germany?
Almost the same. The differences are very little, at least between the way
the name is pronounced in Flanders and in the Rhineland (Bavaria maybe is
another piece of cake, but Beethoven was born in Bonn).
Regards,
Joyce Maier (j...@dds.nl)
Frank Van den Heuvel
> his last name was pronounced in Flanders? Even Beethoven may not
Because it will give you an idea of where the name comes from! And hence
help you in where to start and stop parts of the name.
> have known how his name was pronounced in Flanders. Isn't the real
> question: How did Beethoven pronounce his own name, in Germany?
As Flemish is a German language, the prononciation will be very close.
Note that the German language also allows words to be gathered together
to
form one single new word (actually they tend to do that much more than
in Dutch,
or flemish).
They only difference would be the "v" which would be slightly less full
and
would sway towards the "f" like in "foreign". They remainder would be
the same as
I stated in my earlier post.
Of course this brings us to other problems of language pronounciation! I
have noticed a similar problem when I moved to the US. Should I
pronounce
my own name as the people here do (which is no way near to what I am
used to)
or keep insisting on the correct prononciation?
>
> Bill Bailer
> wba...@cris.com, Rochester NY USA, tel:716-473-9556
> Acoustics, piano technology, music theory, JSBach
Hope this helps.
next topic:
Shostakovich (Sjostakovitj?) in Swahili ;-)
Frank
jrichter
Bill Bailer schrieb in Nachricht ...
>On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Frank Van den Heuvel wrote:
>question: How did Beethoven pronounce his own name, in Germany?
Lood( like food ) vig van (like fun) Beet (like french emblem with a long
e) hofen (like often with a closer and longer o)
cheers
Jens
Byrnefp
In response to another subject on this ng...
I think "Ludwig van Beethoven" is actually pronounced...
"Edward Elgar"
and vice versa.
Frank
Margaret Mikulska
> And the "Lood" part shouldn't so much be "Lood", but something similar
> and kind of undescribable, I believe. :)
Yes, of course, that certain je ne sais pas quoi ...
-Margaret
Sacqueboutier
But Elgar himself said it should be pronounced
"Throat-Warbler-Mangrove"
--
Don
)**********************************************(
)* Don Patterson *(
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)* United States Marine Band *(
)* don...@erols.com *(
)**********************************************(
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The views expressed are my own and in no way
reflect those of "The President's Own" United
States Marine Band or the United States Marine Corps.
Raymond Hall
Please enlighten me, Joyce. You quote, "...the correct Dutch spelling is
Ludwig van Beethoven, not Ludwig Van Beethoven,...).
Is this not the correct German spelling also? Surely the word "van" is
always spelt this way? I have never heard or seen the spelling "Van"
with a capital 'V'.
Regards,
| Ray Hall: < hallr...@bigpond.com >
| "My God! What has sound got to do with music!" (Essays) Chas. Ives
Joyce Maier
Raymond Hall wrote:<361E1A47...@bigpond.com>...
>> To add my pedantic 2 cent: the correct Dutch spelling is Ludwig van
>> Beethoven, not Ludwig Van Beethoven, though sometimes these days on the
>> Flemish television the word "van" in a name like his is spelled with a
>> capital. But in Dutch the capital is only used when the first name is
left
>> out. Most Dutch call the composer "Beethoven" and right so, for he was a
>> German, but from a strictly Dutch point of view the man's name is "Van
>> Beethoven. So we can choose:
>> Ludwig van Beethoven was a German composer, or
>> Van Beethoven was a German composer, or
>> Beethoven was a German composer.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Joyce Maier (j...@dds.nl)
>
>Please enlighten me, Joyce. You quote, "...the correct Dutch spelling is
>Ludwig van Beethoven, not Ludwig Van Beethoven,...).
>Is this not the correct German spelling also?
Yes.
>Surely the word "van" is
>always spelt this way?
No matter the capital or not? If so, then the answer is yes.
> I have never heard or seen the spelling "Van"
>with a capital 'V'.
From a strictly Dutch (but not German) point of view the correct spelling is
"Van Beethoven" IF the first name isn't mentioned, but WITH first name the
correct Dutch AND German spelling is "Ludwig van Beethoven". In Flanders
they sometimes spell "Ludwig Van Beethoven", not in Holland, nor in Germany.
Most Dutch realize very well that he was a German composer and prefer to
call him "Beethoven", like the Germans and Austrians do and he himself did.
He signed his letters sometimes "Ludwig van Beethoven" or "L.van Beethoven"
or "L.v.Beethoven" or "Beethoven". As far as I know he never signed "Van
Beethoven", though his grandfather was a full-blown Flemish, sometimes
called "Lodewijk", but mostly "Louis" and later on, after his removal to
Germany, "Ludwig".
Regards,
Joyce Maier (j...@dds.nl)
David_U
>
> Rory2 wrote:
>
> > Sorry to be a pest, but can anyone tell me the proper way to pronounce the name
> > "Beethoven"? I've heard it pronounced different ways. e.g.,
How about:
Leudvig Von Baithoven (with a drawn out ai)? Possibly
Lewdvig.
--
**************************************
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**************************************
Waranun Bunjongsat
> Scott Taylor wrote:
> >
> > Rory2 wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry to be a pest, but can anyone tell me the proper way to pronounce the name
> > > "Beethoven"? I've heard it pronounced different ways. e.g.,
>
>
> How about:
> Leudvig Von Baithoven (with a drawn out ai)? Possibly
> Lewdvig.
How about "Dum dum dum Daaaammmmm" ?
Waranun,
CONSTANTIN MARCOU
Joyce Maier wrote:
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Best regards,
Con
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To reply, please remove anti-spam asterisk from return address
**************************************************************
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Frank Van den Heuvel
Maybe he wanted to be more noble. Names with non-capitals in the
beginning
like van ... and de... indicated nobility in the Belgian and Flemish
regions.
The name was usually used to indicate which the property was of which
the noble
could reap his profits. (e.g. van Aarendonk, would be the count owning
that property
with that community).
Just a remark
Dr.Matt
there was a poster called <miku...@silvertone.princeton.edu>,
for it means Margaret Mikulska . And the
Lord Bob spoke unto Margaret Mikulska and bade
Margaret Mikulska relay
<361D89...@silvertone.princeton.edu> unto the people, saying:
>I'm not sure why most people in this thread insist on /t/ in "Ludwig".
They think he was named after lye-soaked whitefish.
Dr.Matt
there was a poster called <miku...@silvertone.princeton.edu>,
for it means Margaret Mikulska . And the
Lord Bob spoke unto Margaret Mikulska and bade
Margaret Mikulska relay
Oooh, yes, speak foreign languages to me, tatteleh!
___
/ \
| * | (*)
\___/ \\ v v v
##
(*) http://www.signwriting.org ... It says, phonetically: the
speaker repeatedly taps their nose with index and middle fingers;
and it means: "funny"
Dr. E. Kuypers
easy.
Beethoven was a German (born in Bonn), living for a long time in Vienna
(Austria). But you are almost right: Beethoven' s ancestors are from
Belgium; they speak Dutch in Belgium (also French and German, but in the
region of Beethoven's ancestors they speak Dutch).
Best wishes,
Dr. E. Kuypers
Rory2 <ro...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981007230221...@ng-cr1.aol.com>...
>
> can anyone tell me the proper way to pronounce the name
> "Beethoven"? >
> the name doesn't really seem German, does
> it? Seems more like Dutch to me. >
> Rory
>
David Bluestone
(Dr. E. Kuypers) wrote:
> You must pronounce Beethoven, exactly how it is written. So it is very
> easy.
It will never catch on.
David
Joyce Maier
CONSTANTIN MARCOU wrote:36203F7...@earthlink.net>...
>I think the capital "V" is an Americanism.
No, it's not. Yes, it is when the name is mentioned completely: Ludwig van
Beethoven. But when only the surname is mentioned, it's actually "Van
Beethoven", though often, like I already wrote, the "Van" is left out, since
Beethoven was a German composer, not a Dutch. See also our grouper Frank van
den Heuvel, who, working in the USA, calls himself Frank Van den Heuvel.
Here in Holland he's Frank van den Heuvel, or Mr.Van den Heuvel.
Native Dutch speaker Joyce Maier (j...@dds.nl)
Joyce Maier
Frank Van den Heuvel wrote:<36224A52...@pc93.roc.wayne.edu>...
>> From a strictly Dutch (but not German) point of view the correct spelling
is
>> "Van Beethoven" IF the first name isn't mentioned, but WITH first name
the
>> correct Dutch AND German spelling is "Ludwig van Beethoven". In Flanders
>> they sometimes spell "Ludwig Van Beethoven", not in Holland, nor in
Germany.
>> Most Dutch realize very well that he was a German composer and prefer to
>> call him "Beethoven", like the Germans and Austrians do and he himself
did.
>> He signed his letters sometimes "Ludwig van Beethoven" or "L.van
Beethoven"
>> or "L.v.Beethoven" or "Beethoven". As far as I know he never signed "Van
>> Beethoven", though his grandfather was a full-blown Flemish, sometimes
>> called "Lodewijk", but mostly "Louis" and later on, after his removal to
>> Germany, "Ludwig".
>>
>> Regards,
>> Joyce Maier (j...@dds.nl)
>
>Maybe he wanted to be more noble.
Beethoven was an opportunist in this respect. Often the Viennese nobility
erroneously thought that he also was of noble birth. Often he did nothing to
enlighten them. Oh well, I don't blame him, do you?
>Names with non-capitals in the
>beginning
>like van ... and de... indicated nobility in the Belgian and Flemish
>regions.
>The name was usually used to indicate which the property was of which
>the noble
>could reap his profits. (e.g. van Aarendonk, would be the count owning
>that property
>with that community).
Yes, and "van Beethoven" most probably means "from the beet garden".
Regards,
Joyce Maier (j...@dds.nl)
Rory2
Some folks say that Rec.Music. Classical has been overrun by bickering
pedants and asses. To satisfy myself whether or not this is true, I posted a
question a week ago asking how the name Beethoven should be pronounced. Over
thirty responses have been posted to date, almost all of them completely
serious. Please read the sampled posts below. The case is closed. All I
can say is, there are people in this NG who have WAY too much time on their
hands.
Rory2.
.
>> >> To add my pedantic 2 cent: the correct Dutch spelling is Ludwig van
>> >> Beethoven, not Ludwig Van Beethoven, though sometimes these days on the
>> >> Flemish television the word "van" in a name like his is spelled with a
>> >> capital. But in Dutch the capital is only used when the first name is
>> left
>> >> out. Most Dutch call the composer "Beethoven" and right so, for he was a
>> >> German, but from a strictly Dutch point of view the man's name is "Van
>> >> Beethoven. So we can choose:
>> >> Ludwig van Beethoven was a German composer, or
>> >> Van Beethoven was a German composer, or
>> >> Beethoven was a German composer.
>> >>
>> >Please enlighten me, Joyce. You quote, "...the correct Dutch spelling is
>> >Ludwig van Beethoven, not Ludwig Van Beethoven,...).
>> >Is this not the correct German spelling also?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> >Surely the word "van" is
>> >always spelt this way?
>>
>> No matter the capital or not? If so, then the answer is yes.
>>
>> > I have never heard or seen the spelling "Van"
>> >with a capital 'V'.
>>
>> From a strictly Dutch (but not German) point of view the correct spelling
>is
>> "Van Beethoven" IF the first name isn't mentioned, but WITH first name the
>> correct Dutch AND German spelling is "Ludwig van Beethoven". In Flanders
>> they sometimes spell "Ludwig Van Beethoven", not in Holland, nor in
>Germany.
>> Most Dutch realize very well that he was a German composer and prefer to
>> call him "Beethoven", like the Germans and Austrians do and he himself did.
>> He signed his letters sometimes "Ludwig van Beethoven" or "L.van Beethoven"
>> or "L.v.Beethoven" or "Beethoven". As far as I know he never signed "Van
>> Beethoven", though his grandfather was a full-blown Flemish, sometimes
>> called "Lodewijk", but mostly "Louis" and later on, after his removal to
>> Germany, "Ludwig".
>>
>Maybe he wanted to be more noble. Names with non-capitals in the
James Kahn
>Dear News Group:
>Some folks say that Rec.Music. Classical has been overrun by bickering
>pedants and asses. To satisfy myself whether or not this is true, I posted a
>question a week ago asking how the name Beethoven should be pronounced. Over
>thirty responses have been posted to date, almost all of them completely
>serious. Please read the sampled posts below. The case is closed. All I
>can say is, there are people in this NG who have WAY too much time on their
>hands.
Entrapment! We're innocent.
But in all seriousness, I think this experiment reveals more about you than
about the newsgroup. First, I suspect you've taken more time to post
your question, read the answers, and make this last post, than anyone
else has spent replying. Second, what it says to me is that there
are a lot of people who read this group who try to be helpful in response
to a question they think is sincere, whereas you seem to be a jerk who
would take advantage of this good will to try to make a juvenile point.
You should spend more time on your homework, and less on the 'net
(I'm guessing you're about 16 years old).
Jim (who did not participate in this thread)
--
Jim
New York, NY
(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
http://www.panix.com/~kahn
Jeremy Cook
>
> Dear News Group:
>
> Some folks say that Rec.Music. Classical has been overrun by bickering
> pedants and asses.
There's always room for one more! Do you wish to be seated with the
bickering pedants or the asses? (I'm sure you're equally at home with
either clique!)
> To satisfy myself whether or not this is true, I posted a
> question a week ago asking how the name Beethoven should be pronounced.
You sound like a person who spends a lot of time satisying himself.
> Over
> thirty responses have been posted to date, almost all of them completely
> serious. Please read the sampled posts below. The case is closed. All I
> can say is, there are people in this NG who have WAY too much time on their
> hands.
If you had the time to edit and repost their comments, you must be their
king. Somewhere, a village is missing its idiot. Go home, Rory.
Margaret Mikulska
>
> Dear News Group:
>
> Some folks say that Rec.Music. Classical has been overrun by bickering
> question a week ago asking how the name Beethoven should be pronounced. Over
> thirty responses have been posted to date, almost all of them completely
> serious. Please read the sampled posts below. The case is closed. All I
> can say is, there are people in this NG who have WAY too much time on their
> hands.
OK, next time you bother to post a question, we'll tell you to f**k
off. No pedantry, just a short, straight to the point reply.
-Margaret
DAVID A DI LUZIO
> Beethoven was an opportunist in this respect. Often the Viennese nobility
> erroneously thought that he also was of noble birth. Often he did nothing
to
> enlighten them. Oh well, I don't blame him, do you?
They should have conferred on him every title. Germany should have a statue
to him in every town and village. It will convince her people that they do
have something POSITIVE of which to be proud.
Fred Goldrich
Rory2 <ro...@aol.com> wrote:
>Dear News Group:
>
>Some folks say that Rec.Music. Classical has been overrun by bickering
>pedants and asses. To satisfy myself whether or not this is true, I posted a
>question a week ago asking how the name Beethoven should be pronounced. Over
>thirty responses have been posted to date, almost all of them completely
>serious. Please read the sampled posts below. The case is closed. All I
>can say is, there are people in this NG who have WAY too much time on their
>hands.
The case may be closed for you, but that just
shows how little you know.
I've been a professional musician for nearly
30 years -- and I learned something new from the ex-
change. I'm glad you asked the question.
We all take what we can from these discussions.
For many of us, they are a source of interest and edu-
cation. But if, at your level, you find yourself
capable only of getting a childish giggle or two out
of them, that's all right too.
-- Fred Goldrich
--
Fred Goldrich
gold...@panix.com
Nicolai P. Zwar
>
> Dear News Group:
>
> Some folks say that Rec.Music. Classical has been overrun by bickering
> pedants and asses.
Before or after you showed up here?
> To satisfy myself whether or not this is true, I posted a
> question a week ago asking how the name Beethoven should be pronounced.
Considering that this is a fairly international group, that question is
not all that farfetched.
> Over
> thirty responses have been posted to date, almost all of them completely
> serious.
Yup, we pretend to be a kind people and lure our victims in first, and
THEN, once they feel nice and cozy here, then and only then we loose our
bounds and rip them to shreds when they ask such a question.
> Please read the sampled posts below. The case is closed. All I
> can say is, there are people in this NG who have WAY too much time on their
> hands.
Look who's talking. You wrote the original question, read ALL the
replies, edited them together, and post them again with a comment
telling everybody else that THEY have way too much time on their hands,
because they took (a little bit) of their time to answer YOUR request?
Yeah, right! Let us know when you found a job.
P.S.: It's pronounced "Ludwig van Beethoven", just like it's spelled.
Nicolai P. Zwar
Remove "NOT THESE FOUR WORDS" to reply.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with
potatoes.
(From "Life, the Universe and Everything" by Douglas Adams)
piper
>Dear News Group:
>
>Some folks say that Rec.Music. Classical has been overrun by bickering
>pedants and asses. To satisfy myself whether or not this is true, I posted a
>question a week ago asking how the name Beethoven should be pronounced. Over
>thirty responses have been posted to date, almost all of them completely
>serious.
[snip]
And, uninterested in such matters, I read as few of them as I could.
So what do you do with people like me, lump us as pedants and asses by
association? Just follow my example and delete all the messages you
don't give a darn about!
Michael
Mike Painter
(piper) wrote:
The irony, of course, is that Rory2 started the thread, and then when
people gave what they thought were helpful answers (along with humorous
ones, I'm sure) -- the NG has received serious requests for similar
information before -- he had the nerve to criticize them.
I'd delete any future messages from HIM.
Mike
To respond via e-mail, remove * from address.
Steve Forrest
>bickering pedants and asses.
Please clarify. Are folks saying that both the pedants and the asses are
bickering? Or just the pedants are bickering, and the asses are just asses?
This is fairly important, as it would be unfair to ignore the contributions
of the bickering asses.
-Steve
Jeremy Cook
There appear to be several possibilities that the original poster had in
mind, namely, that rmc has been overrun by:
1) Pedants and asses, all of whom bicker;
2) Only those pedants and asses who happen to bicker;
3) Pedants, all of whom bicker, and non-bickering asses;
4) Only the pedants who bicker, as well as the asses;
There is also the possibility that there was a punctuation error in the
original post, which perhaps should have read, "bickering, pedants, and
asses," in which case rmc could be said to be overrun by:
5) Instances of bickering by those are not necessarily pedants or asses,
as well as the presence of pedants and asses who may or may not
necessarily be engaged in bickering.
I think a logical approach is best to try to determine the true state of
affairs in rmc. We can assign the following formulae to each of the
above possibilities, assinging the value X to represent those
individuals in the ng who are neither pedants nor asses, and who do not
bicker:
1) B(P+A) > X
2) BP+BA > P+A+X
3) B(P)+A > BA+X
4) BP+A > P+X
5) BX+?B(P)+?B(A) > X
I think that a careful analysis of all of the above possibilities, when
approached with pure logic, evaluated with the scientific method, and
examined in the spirit of emotional detachment from the personal
implications of any inferences that may be drawn, lead to the
inescapable conclusion that the person who posted the original comment
is undoubtedly among the most contemptible jackasses ever to soil this
newsgroup with their besotted cerebral effluvium.
Cathy and Kip
> 1) B(P+A) > X
> 2) BP+BA > P+A+X
> 3) B(P)+A > BA+X
> 4) BP+A > P+X
> 5) BX+?B(P)+?B(A) > X
I have no doubt the original poster would consider this yet another
*serious* answer to his question.
What I'm waiting for is for him to take that pronunciation of Beethoven
we gave him and say it in front of a German construction worker. He'll
learn how serious we were *then*.
--Kip Williams
Steve Forrest
Jeremy Cook <jerem...@erols.com> wrote:
>Steve Forrest wrote:
>> In article <19981016171028...@ng16.aol.com>,
>> Rory2 <ro...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >Some folks say that Rec.Music. Classical has been overrun by
>> >bickering pedants and asses.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Please clarify. Are folks saying that both the pedants and the asses are
>> bickering? Or just the pedants are bickering, and the asses are just asses?
>> This is fairly important, as it would be unfair to ignore the contributions
>> of the bickering asses.
>I think that a careful analysis of all of the above possibilities, when
>approached with pure logic, evaluated with the scientific method, and
>examined in the spirit of emotional detachment from the personal
>implications of any inferences that may be drawn, lead to the
>inescapable conclusion that the person who posted the original comment
>is undoubtedly among the most contemptible jackasses ever to soil this
>newsgroup with their besotted cerebral effluvium.
While your conclusion is intuitively plausible, it would be imprudent for
me to concur pending the standard peer review process.
-Steve
Jeremy Cook
before we publish?
Jeremy Cook
Unfortunately, he would probably enjoy the beating.
Steve Forrest
For the sake of non-bickering pedantry, I'll go along with that.
-Steve
Frank Eggleston
>
> Steve Forrest wrote:
> >
> > In article <19981016171028...@ng16.aol.com>,
> > Rory2 <ro...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >Some folks say that Rec.Music. Classical has been overrun by
> > >bickering pedants and asses.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > Please clarify. Are folks saying that both the pedants and the asses are
> > bickering? Or just the pedants are bickering, and the asses are just asses?
> > This is fairly important, as it would be unfair to ignore the contributions
> > of the bickering asses.
>
> mind, namely, that rmc has been overrun by:
>
> 1) Pedants and asses, all of whom bicker;
> 2) Only those pedants and asses who happen to bicker;
> 3) Pedants, all of whom bicker, and non-bickering asses;
> 4) Only the pedants who bicker, as well as the asses;
>
> There is also the possibility that there was a punctuation error in the
> original post, which perhaps should have read, "bickering, pedants, and
> asses," in which case rmc could be said to be overrun by:
>
> 5) Instances of bickering by those are not necessarily pedants or asses,
> as well as the presence of pedants and asses who may or may not
> necessarily be engaged in bickering.
>
> I think a logical approach is best to try to determine the true state of
> affairs in rmc. We can assign the following formulae to each of the
> above possibilities, assinging the value X to represent those
> individuals in the ng who are neither pedants nor asses, and who do not
> bicker:
>
> 2) BP+BA > P+A+X
> 3) B(P)+A > BA+X
> 4) BP+A > P+X
> 5) BX+?B(P)+?B(A) > X
>
> approached with pure logic, evaluated with the scientific method, and
> examined in the spirit of emotional detachment from the personal
> implications of any inferences that may be drawn, lead to the
> inescapable conclusion that the person who posted the original comment
> is undoubtedly among the most contemptible jackasses ever to soil this
> newsgroup with their besotted cerebral effluvium.
Frank (contributing pedant)
--
"... for it goes without saying."
--- description of Milo's car
(borrowed from King Azaz the Unabridged)
in "The Phantom Tollbooth"
Gerrit Stolte
*PLONK*
ke...@worldnet.att.net
>always spelt this way? I have never heard or seen the spelling "Van"
>with a capital 'V'.
>
Van is Capitalised
Kent Van Timmeren
Cookjeremy
>Some folks say that Rec.Music. Classical has been overrun by bickering
>pedants and asses. To satisfy myself whether or not this is true, I posted
>a
>question a week ago asking how the name Beethoven should be pronounced.
[snip]
The more I think about this, the madder I get. You posted a question, and some
well-meaning people in this group tried to answer it. Who the hell are you to
criticize them? Who are YOU to call members of this group 'bickering pedants
and asses'? All right, maybe there are a few pedants and asses in this group
who think they are God's gift to Culture and Art. So what? You are a nobody
-- a nothing. You are a stain on Bill Clinton's trousers. You probably
couldn't even fill out the application form for Mensa. Your kind of people
are not welcome here. Get out and don't come back!
Jeremy Cooke
Lawrence Faltz
>
> Cathy and Kip wrote:
> >
> > Jeremy Cook wrote:
> > > 2) BP+BA > P+A+X
> > > 3) B(P)+A > BA+X
> > > 4) BP+A > P+X
> > > 5) BX+?B(P)+?B(A) > X
> >
> > *serious* answer to his question.
> >
> > What I'm waiting for is for him to take that pronunciation of Beethoven
> > we gave him and say it in front of a German construction worker. He'll
> > learn how serious we were *then*.
>
> Unfortunately, he would probably enjoy the beating.
He *is* a German construction worker...he was just trying to goad you.
LLF
rigo...@table.jps.net
: On Sat, 10 Oct 1998 00:14:31 +1000, Raymond Hall
: >Is this not the correct German spelling also? Surely the word "van" is
: >always spelt this way? I have never heard or seen the spelling "Van"
: Van is Capitalised
Isn't the 'van' the Dutch equivalent of the German 'von' (as in
'somebody from somewhere')? [It's not the same Van as in Van Halen.]
Mike Zorn
Peter H. Granzeau
I think that the difference is that the Dutch "Van" is just part of a
name, where the German "von" indicates nobility of some kind.
ICOCBW(APA).
Regards, PHG
(To reply by mail, send to my initials at the same site)
Cathy and Kip
> I think that the difference is that the Dutch "Van" is just part of a
> name, where the German "von" indicates nobility of some kind.
> ICOCBW(APA).
That's the way I understood it. Beethoven liked to slur the name a
little and let people assume he had some title. A social climber,
perhaps, but I'll forgive him anything after hearing his Caprice on the
Loss of a Pfennig.
--Kip Williams
Margaret Mikulska
> That's the way I understood it. Beethoven liked to slur the name a
> little and let people assume he had some title. A social climber,
> perhaps, but I'll forgive him anything after hearing his Caprice on the
> Loss of a Pfennig.
As a pedant I have to point out that the Capriccio is about a
"Groschen", not a Pfennig
("Die Wuth ueber den verlornen Groschen"). They've had Groschen in
Austria for many years.
It's a charming piece, isn't it?
-Margaret
Jeremy Cook
>
> Margaret Mikulska wrote:
> > As a pedant I have to point out that the Capriccio is about a
> > "Groschen", not a Pfennig
> > ("Die Wuth ueber den verlornen Groschen"). They've had Groschen in
> > Austria for many years.
> >
> > It's a charming piece, isn't it?
>
> I dunno. I'm going to have to think about this.
I think this topic has been Groschened and Dimed for all it's worth. ;-)
Cathy and Kip
> As a pedant I have to point out that the Capriccio is about a
> "Groschen", not a Pfennig
> ("Die Wuth ueber den verlornen Groschen"). They've had Groschen in
> Austria for many years.
>
> It's a charming piece, isn't it?
Aw, gee, I dunno. It was fine for a Pfennig, but for a Groschen... gee,
I dunno. I'm going to have to think about this.
--Kip W, thinking hard
Gerrit Stolte
>Jeremy Cook wrote:
>> 1) B(P+A) > X
>> 2) BP+BA > P+A+X
>> 3) B(P)+A > BA+X
>> 4) BP+A > P+X
>> 5) BX+?B(P)+?B(A) > X
>I have no doubt the original poster would consider this yet another
>*serious* answer to his question.
>What I'm waiting for is for him to take that pronunciation of Beethoven
>we gave him and say it in front of a German construction worker. He'll
>learn how serious we were *then*.
...unfortunately, the average German construction worker wouldn't know
what we are talking about, even if we pronounced Beethoven perfectly.
Gerrit
--------------------
"There are so-called Bruckner conductors who've never
played a Bruckner symphony! These camel drivers haven't
understood a thing about Bruckner."
Sergiu Celibidache
Nicolai P. Zwar
Jeremy Cook wrote:
>
> Steve Forrest wrote:
> >
> > In article <19981016171028...@ng16.aol.com>,
> > Rory2 <ro...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >Some folks say that Rec.Music. Classical has been overrun by
> > >bickering pedants and asses.
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > Please clarify. Are folks saying that both the pedants and the asses are
> > bickering? Or just the pedants are bickering, and the asses are just asses?
> > This is fairly important, as it would be unfair to ignore the contributions
> > of the bickering asses.
>
> There appear to be several possibilities that the original poster had in
> mind, namely, that rmc has been overrun by:
>
> 1) Pedants and asses, all of whom bicker;
> 2) Only those pedants and asses who happen to bicker;
> 3) Pedants, all of whom bicker, and non-bickering asses;
> 4) Only the pedants who bicker, as well as the asses;
>
> There is also the possibility that there was a punctuation error in the
> original post, which perhaps should have read, "bickering, pedants, and
> asses," in which case rmc could be said to be overrun by:
>
> 5) Instances of bickering by those are not necessarily pedants or asses,
> as well as the presence of pedants and asses who may or may not
> necessarily be engaged in bickering.
>
> I think a logical approach is best to try to determine the true state of
> affairs in rmc. We can assign the following formulae to each of the
> above possibilities, assinging the value X to represent those
> individuals in the ng who are neither pedants nor asses, and who do not
> bicker:
>
> 1) B(P+A) > X
> 2) BP+BA > P+A+X
> 3) B(P)+A > BA+X
> 4) BP+A > P+X
> 5) BX+?B(P)+?B(A) > X
>
> I think that a careful analysis of all of the above possibilities, when
> approached with pure logic, evaluated with the scientific method, and
> examined in the spirit of emotional detachment from the personal
> implications of any inferences that may be drawn, lead to the
> inescapable conclusion that the person who posted the original comment
> is undoubtedly among the most contemptible jackasses ever to soil this
> newsgroup with their besotted cerebral effluvium.
--
EastGuyCMH
>Jeremy Cook wrote:
Nicolai, I don't see the point in saving the above post. Mr. Cook's analysis
overlooks the obvious possibility -- indeed, I would say, the high probablity
-- that some bickering pedants in this newsgroup are also asses. In fact,
the above post provides conclusive evidence that this is the case, in at least
one instance. Mr. Cook should brush up on his set theory.
--
Yrs.,
Regis
Jeremy Cook
Dear Regis (or are you "Rory2", the butthead whose ether-borne
flatulence started this whole discussion?),
Until this moment I would not have believed that there existed and
individual so humorless and pathetic as to take my post as anything but
satire, much less an attempt to utilize set theory! You are a
pretentious and churlish ass with the heart of a chicken and the brain
of a baboon (my apologies to all of the chickens and baboons I have just
offended). It was a sad, dark day for the human race when you snuck
into the gene pool (no doubt the lifeguard was not on duty).
Please do your part to better mankind by not living much longer. In the
meantime, I have printed out a copy of your post, and, to quote Max
Reger:
"Ich sitze in dem kleinsten Zimmer in meinem Hause. Ich habe Ihre
Kritik vor mir. Im nächsten Augenblick wird se hinter mir sein."
EastGuyCMH
>Dear Regis (or are you "Rory2", the butthead whose ether-borne
>flatulence started this whole discussion?)...
> You are a
>pretentious and churlish ass with the heart of a chicken and the brain
>of a baboon ...
> It was a sad, dark day for the human race when you snuck
>into the gene pool ...
>Please do your part to better mankind by not living much longer. In the
>meantime, I have printed out a copy of your post, and, to quote Max Reger:
>
>"Ich sitze in dem kleinsten Zimmer in meinem Hause. Ich habe Ihre
>Kritik vor mir. Im nächsten Augenblick wird se hinter mir sein."
Fascinating glimpse into the workings of an agitated mind. Note the obsession
with animals and scatology, as well as the compulsion to switch to the German
language when describing bathroom activities. Another classic from Mr. Cook.
Yrs.,
Regis.
Rory2
find his thesaurus.
Rory2
Jeremy Cook
Will there be no end to the explosive growth of my fan base?
Jeremy Cook
>
> Another interesting post sent in by Mr. Jeremy Cook:
>
> >Dear Regis (or are you "Rory2", the butthead whose ether-borne
> >flatulence started this whole discussion?)...
> > You are a
> >pretentious and churlish ass with the heart of a chicken and the brain
> >of a baboon ...
> > It was a sad, dark day for the human race when you snuck
> >into the gene pool ...
> >Please do your part to better mankind by not living much longer. In the
> >meantime, I have printed out a copy of your post, and, to quote Max Reger:
> >
> >"Ich sitze in dem kleinsten Zimmer in meinem Hause. Ich habe Ihre
> >Kritik vor mir. Im nächsten Augenblick wird se hinter mir sein."
>
> Fascinating glimpse into the workings of an agitated mind.
Fascinating that a knuckle-dragger like you can type without opposable
thumbs.
> Note the obsession
> with animals and scatology,
"When in Rome..."
> as well as the compulsion to switch to the German
> language when describing bathroom activities.
Not to mention the fascinating compulsion to switch to German when
quoting Germans.
> Another classic from Mr. Cook.
Why thank you. Now that you have unburdened yourself of this lavish
praise and admiration for my work, will you be dying soon?
Frank Eggleston
>
> Another interesting post sent in by Mr. Jeremy Cook:
>
> >Dear Regis (or are you "Rory2", the butthead whose ether-borne
> >flatulence started this whole discussion?)...
> > You are a
> >pretentious and churlish ass with the heart of a chicken and the brain
> >of a baboon ...
> > It was a sad, dark day for the human race when you snuck
> >into the gene pool ...
> >Please do your part to better mankind by not living much longer. In the
> >meantime, I have printed out a copy of your post, and, to quote Max Reger:
> >
> >"Ich sitze in dem kleinsten Zimmer in meinem Hause. Ich habe Ihre
> >Kritik vor mir. Im nächsten Augenblick wird se hinter mir sein."
>
> with animals and scatology, as well as the compulsion to switch to the German
> language when describing bathroom activities. Another classic from Mr. Cook.
>
> Yrs.,
> Regis.
Actually, it's a very famous quotation from Max Reger, as just about
anybody with the slightest knowledge of criticism would know.
Frank Eggleston
Frank Eggleston
>
> Frank--
>
> Thank you for sharing that. I have no experience with criticism, you see.
>
> Lord, what a condescending ass. What are you, some sort of Good Samaritan
> for Idiot Savants?
>
> Yrs,
> Regis
>
> Frank Eggleston wrote:
>
> >
> >Actually, it's a very famous quotation from Max Reger, as just about
> >anybody with the slightest knowledge of criticism would know.
> >
> >Frank Eggleston
Well, now you don't have any excuse. (:D) Recommendation for raising
the level of the discussion -- read Nicolas Slonimsky's "Lexicon of
Musical Invective" (trade paper, University of Washington Press).
It's got some great reviews of famous composer's compositions by
critics who just didn't get it. The Reger quote was a reply to one of
those. For non-German speakers it goes roughly: "I am sitting in the
smallest room in my house. I have your review before me. In a moment
it will be behind me." I've always enjoyed it.
Frank
("Take the prisoner down to the dungeon!!", he said condescendingly.)
:-)
Jeremy Cook
>
> Frank--
>
> Thank you for sharing that. I have no experience with criticism, you see.
Too bad.
> Lord,
Oh sure, blame God for making you this way.
> what a condescending ass.
Does that comment stem from your obsession with animals, or scatology?
> What are you, some sort of Good Samaritan for Idiot Savants?
More like an angel of death, apparently. Please don't resist the
inevitable.
EastGuyCMH
Thank you for sharing that. I have no experience with criticism, you see.
Lord, what a condescending ass. What are you, some sort of Good Samaritan
for Idiot Savants?
Yrs,
EastGuyCMH
EastGuyCMH wrote:
>> What are you, some sort of Good Samaritan for Idiot Savants?
>More like an angel of death, apparently. Please don't resist the
>inevitable.
In view of Mr. Cook's impatient entreaties for my death, I have done some
soul-searching and have arrived at a decision. Yes, this morning I called Dr.
Kevorkian. I think it will be best for all concerned.
By the way, Jeremy, the van will be in front of your house in about half an
hour.
___
Yrs,
Regis
Jeremy Cook
Call me an incurable optimist: At least I won't have to read any more
of your idiotic posts. In remembrance of your posted legacy of
monumental stupidity, I shall play some Bach Chorales on the way out.
"Es spricht der Unweisen Mund" and "Es ist genug; so nimm, Herr" come
immediately to mind.
Frank Eggleston
If you're really into valediction, try the Berg Violin Concerto. You
get elegiaca and one of the Bach chorales thrown in free.
Frank E
al...@rev.net
>Yes, of course, that certain je ne sais pas quoi ...
I don't know what you mean by that.
--Spud DuBoise
_____
Music of Sasa Quixote at <http://www.rev.net/~aloe/music/sq.html>
CONSTANTIN MARCOU
al...@rev.net wrote:
> Margaret Mikulska <miku...@silvertone.princeton.edu> wrote:
>
> >Yes, of course, that certain je ne sais pas quoi ...
>
> I don't know what you mean by that.
>
The idiomatic (according to Cassell's French dictionary -- though
possibly ungrammatical) phrase is "je ne sais quoi." (I don't know...
does "quoi" standing alone qualify to complete the French negative
phrase in the same way "guère" or "rien" or "point" would?) Anyway, it
means "I don't know what" and is used to signify something indefinable
or ineffable
--
Best regards,
Con
--
To reply, please remove anti-spam asterisk from return address
**************************************************************
"Mozart is too easy for beginners and too difficult for artists"
-- Artur Schnabel
**************************************************************
ride...@gmail.com
> Spud wrote:
> > Margaret Mikulska wrote:
> >
> > >Yes, of course, that certain je ne sais pas quoi ...
> >
> > I don't know what you mean by that.
> >
>
> The idiomatic (according to Cassell's French dictionary -- though
> possibly ungrammatical) phrase is "je ne sais quoi." (I don't know...
> does "quoi" standing alone qualify to complete the French negative
> phrase in the same way "guère" or "rien" or "point" would?) Anyway, it
> means "I don't know what" and is used to signify something indefinable
> or ineffable
--Buck Stark <https://www.dialup4less.com/~aloe/skinnydip/#song>