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Valved Horns and Trumpets
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Charles H. Sampson
Dec 6, 2014, 2:41:46 AM12/6/14
to
I know a bit about the history of the various musical instruments, but
not enough. Can anyone tell me when valved horns and trumpets became
common enough that a composer could expect any reasonable orchestra to
have competent players of these instruments? Thanks.
Charlie
--
Nobody in this country got rich on his own. You built a factory--good.
But you moved your goods on roads we all paid for. You hired workers we
all paid to educate. So keep a big hunk of the money from your factory.
But take a hunk and pay it forward. Elizabeth Warren (paraphrased)
not enough. Can anyone tell me when valved horns and trumpets became
common enough that a composer could expect any reasonable orchestra to
have competent players of these instruments? Thanks.
Charlie
--
Nobody in this country got rich on his own. You built a factory--good.
But you moved your goods on roads we all paid for. You hired workers we
all paid to educate. So keep a big hunk of the money from your factory.
But take a hunk and pay it forward. Elizabeth Warren (paraphrased)
William Sommerwerck
Dec 6, 2014, 8:53:23 AM12/6/14
to
"Charles H. Sampson" wrote in message
news:1lw7gb7.1b4u6gq1phmgpN%csam...@inetworld.net...
> I know a bit about the history of the various musical instruments,
> but not enough. Can anyone tell me when valved horns and trumpets
> became common enough that a composer could expect any reasonable
> orchestra to have competent players of these instruments? Thanks.
This question is answered in the Wikipedia article on Horn (instrument).
news:1lw7gb7.1b4u6gq1phmgpN%csam...@inetworld.net...
> I know a bit about the history of the various musical instruments,
> but not enough. Can anyone tell me when valved horns and trumpets
> became common enough that a composer could expect any reasonable
> orchestra to have competent players of these instruments? Thanks.
Charles H. Sampson
Dec 10, 2014, 3:38:09 PM12/10/14
to
indicate that the common occurrence in orchestras came about in the late
19th century. This is what I've thought for a long time but, by sloppy
reading between the lines, I had come to think that it was earlier, like
around mid-century. The article says that all the mid-century chromatic
writing was played by stopping the horn.
Quite some time ago I heard somebody playing a piece on a natural horn;
I think it was a Mozart concerto. It sounded awful. The pitches were
right but the constant changes of tone color were off-putting in the
extreme. Are we to believe that people put up with this in the 19th
century or was the player giving us a bad example? I don't remember that
he was a big-name hornist.
MiNe109
Dec 10, 2014, 4:08:07 PM12/10/14
to
On 12/10/14, 2:38 PM, Charles H. Sampson wrote:
... science comes to the aid of the musician [with the modern valved
horn] ....Legato phrases can be played really legato, and even shakes
and appoggiaturas (all but impossible before) are quite easy on the
Valve-horn. But do you think musicians were grateful for these benefits
conferred? Not a bit! They vehemently protested against the innovation;
first vowing that the faulty "stopped" notes written by the old masters
when they couldn't help it, were pearls beyond price....
End quote.
So, they may have liked it that way.
More:
http://www.public.asu.edu/~jqerics/brahms-natural-horn.html
Reissiger wrote in 1837[,] 'I hear such a beautiful, sustained solo
performed in a colorless monotone on a valve horn, and it seems to me as
if the instrument is moaning: 'My love, I am a horn. Don't you recognize
me any more? I admit that I am too severely constricted, I am somewhat
uncentered and hoarse, my sweetness is gone, my tone sounds as if it has
to go through a filter sack in which its power gets stuck.'
Stephen
> William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> This question is answered in the Wikipedia article on Horn
>> (instrument).
>
> This article doesn't address the question specifically but seems to
> indicate that the common occurrence in orchestras came about in the
> late 19th century. This is what I've thought for a long time but, by
> sloppy reading between the lines, I had come to think that it was
> earlier, like around mid-century. The article says that all the
> mid-century chromatic writing was played by stopping the horn.
>
> Quite some time ago I heard somebody playing a piece on a natural
> horn; I think it was a Mozart concerto. It sounded awful. The pitches
> were right but the constant changes of tone color were off-putting in
> the extreme. Are we to believe that people put up with this in the
> 19th century or was the player giving us a bad example? I don't
> remember that he was a big-name hornist.
http://www.hornsociety.org/publications/horn-call/online-articles/27-the-horn-call/online-articles/146-trashing-the-valved-horn
>> This question is answered in the Wikipedia article on Horn
>> (instrument).
>
> This article doesn't address the question specifically but seems to
> indicate that the common occurrence in orchestras came about in the
> late 19th century. This is what I've thought for a long time but, by
> sloppy reading between the lines, I had come to think that it was
> earlier, like around mid-century. The article says that all the
> mid-century chromatic writing was played by stopping the horn.
>
> Quite some time ago I heard somebody playing a piece on a natural
> horn; I think it was a Mozart concerto. It sounded awful. The pitches
> were right but the constant changes of tone color were off-putting in
> the extreme. Are we to believe that people put up with this in the
> 19th century or was the player giving us a bad example? I don't
> remember that he was a big-name hornist.
... science comes to the aid of the musician [with the modern valved
horn] ....Legato phrases can be played really legato, and even shakes
and appoggiaturas (all but impossible before) are quite easy on the
Valve-horn. But do you think musicians were grateful for these benefits
conferred? Not a bit! They vehemently protested against the innovation;
first vowing that the faulty "stopped" notes written by the old masters
when they couldn't help it, were pearls beyond price....
End quote.
So, they may have liked it that way.
More:
http://www.public.asu.edu/~jqerics/brahms-natural-horn.html
Reissiger wrote in 1837[,] 'I hear such a beautiful, sustained solo
performed in a colorless monotone on a valve horn, and it seems to me as
if the instrument is moaning: 'My love, I am a horn. Don't you recognize
me any more? I admit that I am too severely constricted, I am somewhat
uncentered and hoarse, my sweetness is gone, my tone sounds as if it has
to go through a filter sack in which its power gets stuck.'
Stephen
Peter T. Daniels
Dec 10, 2014, 11:15:08 PM12/10/14
to
On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 3:38:09 PM UTC-5, Charles H. Sampson wrote:
> William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > "Charles H. Sampson" wrote in message
> > news:1lw7gb7.1b4u6gq1phmgpN%csam...@inetworld.net...
> > > I know a bit about the history of the various musical instruments,
> > > but not enough. Can anyone tell me when valved horns and trumpets
> > > became common enough that a composer could expect any reasonable
> > > orchestra to have competent players of these instruments? Thanks.
> >
> > This question is answered in the Wikipedia article on Horn (instrument).
>
> This article doesn't address the question specifically but seems to
> indicate that the common occurrence in orchestras came about in the late
> 19th century. This is what I've thought for a long time but, by sloppy
> reading between the lines, I had come to think that it was earlier, like
> around mid-century. The article says that all the mid-century chromatic
> writing was played by stopping the horn.
Some years ago, Sir John Eliot Gardiner played almost all of Schumann's
> William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > "Charles H. Sampson" wrote in message
> > news:1lw7gb7.1b4u6gq1phmgpN%csam...@inetworld.net...
> > > I know a bit about the history of the various musical instruments,
> > > but not enough. Can anyone tell me when valved horns and trumpets
> > > became common enough that a composer could expect any reasonable
> > > orchestra to have competent players of these instruments? Thanks.
> >
> > This question is answered in the Wikipedia article on Horn (instrument).
>
> This article doesn't address the question specifically but seems to
> indicate that the common occurrence in orchestras came about in the late
> 19th century. This is what I've thought for a long time but, by sloppy
> reading between the lines, I had come to think that it was earlier, like
> around mid-century. The article says that all the mid-century chromatic
> writing was played by stopping the horn.
orchestral works with his Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment in the
Lincoln Center Festival (including the "concerto" for four horns), and
during the course of either his pre-concert talks or his lecture-demonstrations with the orchestra, pointed out that at least one of
the symphonies is scored for two valve-horns and two natural horns. He
knew what he was doing.
John W Kennedy
Dec 11, 2014, 11:01:27 PM12/11/14
to
absolutely godlike, but the horn scales at the end of "Abscheuliger"
were vile.
--
John W Kennedy
"The grand art mastered the thudding hammer of Thor
And the heart of our lord Taliessin determined the war."
-- Charles Williams. "Mount Badon"
Joe Roberts
Dec 12, 2014, 9:53:44 PM12/12/14
to
Looking at curious instruments, there is -- or was -- a set of Aida Trumpets
for sale:
http://www.horntrader.com/bb-trumpets/134-aida-trumpets-robert-schoppers-complete-set.html
Besides Aida, what other application could they have?
Joe
for sale:
http://www.horntrader.com/bb-trumpets/134-aida-trumpets-robert-schoppers-complete-set.html
Besides Aida, what other application could they have?
Joe
John W Kennedy
Dec 13, 2014, 3:42:47 PM12/13/14
to
written to employ them; such things have happened with other odd
instruments They are essentially just trumpets in A and B with only the
first (major 2nd) valve.
--
John W Kennedy
"There are those who argue that everything breaks even in this old dump
of a world of ours. I suppose these ginks who argue that way hold that
because the rich man gets ice in the summer and the poor man gets it in
the winter things are breaking even for both. Maybe so, but I'll swear
I can't see it that way."
-- The last words of Bat Masterson
Peter T. Daniels
Dec 13, 2014, 10:24:56 PM12/13/14
to
On Saturday, December 13, 2014 3:42:47 PM UTC-5, John W Kennedy wrote:
> On 2014-12-13 02:53:52 +0000, Joe Roberts said:
> > Looking at curious instruments, there is -- or was -- a set of Aida
> > Trumpets for sale:
> >
> > http://www.horntrader.com/bb-trumpets/134-aida-trumpets-robert-schoppers-complete-set.html
> >
> > Besides Aida, what other application could they have?
>
> It wouldn't surprise me to learn that other operas of the era were
> written to employ them; such things have happened with other odd
> instruments They are essentially just trumpets in A and B with only the
> first (major 2nd) valve.
Has anyone else used Wagner Tubas? I have the impression that very few
> On 2014-12-13 02:53:52 +0000, Joe Roberts said:
> > Looking at curious instruments, there is -- or was -- a set of Aida
> > Trumpets for sale:
> >
> > http://www.horntrader.com/bb-trumpets/134-aida-trumpets-robert-schoppers-complete-set.html
> >
> > Besides Aida, what other application could they have?
>
> It wouldn't surprise me to learn that other operas of the era were
> written to employ them; such things have happened with other odd
> instruments They are essentially just trumpets in A and B with only the
> first (major 2nd) valve.
sets were made, and they get lent around the world as companies undertake
a Ring.
Alan Dawes
Dec 14, 2014, 7:13:48 AM12/14/14
to
In article <dd4a7f0b-2f49-4b05...@googlegroups.com>,
The orchestra (Birmingham Philharmonic) that my son and his wife play
horns in borrowed wagner tubas from the City of Birmingham Symphony
Orchestra when they did a staged perfomance of Die Walkure at St Johns
Smith square in London.
Alan
--
alan....@argonet.co.uk
alan....@riscos.org
Using an Acorn RiscPC
horns in borrowed wagner tubas from the City of Birmingham Symphony
Orchestra when they did a staged perfomance of Die Walkure at St Johns
Smith square in London.
Alan
--
alan....@argonet.co.uk
alan....@riscos.org
Using an Acorn RiscPC
Paul Dormer
Dec 14, 2014, 8:32:53 AM12/14/14
to
In article <dd4a7f0b-2f49-4b05...@googlegroups.com>,
Well, Bruckner used them in his last three symphonies, Strauss in a few
works, including the Alpine Symphony, Schoenberg in Gurrelieder,
Stravinsky in the Rite of Spring and Bartok in the Miraculous Mandarin.
And according to Norman Del Mar's Anatomy of the Orchestra, those last
two works are odd in that they use only two Wagner tubas, not the usual
quartet.
Well, Bruckner used them in his last three symphonies, Strauss in a few
works, including the Alpine Symphony, Schoenberg in Gurrelieder,
Stravinsky in the Rite of Spring and Bartok in the Miraculous Mandarin.
And according to Norman Del Mar's Anatomy of the Orchestra, those last
two works are odd in that they use only two Wagner tubas, not the usual
quartet.
John W Kennedy
Dec 14, 2014, 2:21:55 PM12/14/14
to
--
John W Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
Walter Bushell
Dec 26, 2014, 1:55:25 PM12/26/14
to
In article <11a23135-072f-4baa...@googlegroups.com>,
too, at least after composers started writing for specific instruments
rather than, "Here are some notes, use whatever instruments you have
access to with musicians capable of executing them.
Remember how long piano reductions of even orchestral music were
popular, and probably joined in by any instruments available. Just
imagine an orchestral work performed on a percussion instrument.
That's why the two answers to the question "What do you call someone
who likes to hang out with musicians?", are
"Drummers and Pianists"?
<http://xkcd.com/532/>
--
Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greed. Me.
> Some years ago, Sir John Eliot Gardiner played almost all of Schumann's
> orchestral works with his Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment in the
> Lincoln Center Festival (including the "concerto" for four horns), and
> during the course of either his pre-concert talks or his
> lecture-demonstrations with the orchestra, pointed out that at least one of
> the symphonies is scored for two valve-horns and two natural horns. He
> knew what he was doing.
Some of those changes in tone color in other works were deliberate
> orchestral works with his Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment in the
> Lincoln Center Festival (including the "concerto" for four horns), and
> during the course of either his pre-concert talks or his
> lecture-demonstrations with the orchestra, pointed out that at least one of
> the symphonies is scored for two valve-horns and two natural horns. He
> knew what he was doing.
too, at least after composers started writing for specific instruments
rather than, "Here are some notes, use whatever instruments you have
access to with musicians capable of executing them.
Remember how long piano reductions of even orchestral music were
popular, and probably joined in by any instruments available. Just
imagine an orchestral work performed on a percussion instrument.
That's why the two answers to the question "What do you call someone
who likes to hang out with musicians?", are
"Drummers and Pianists"?
<http://xkcd.com/532/>
--
Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greed. Me.
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