Re: Eugen Jochum in Mahler
John Harrington
> Jochum's only Mahler recording is DLVDE on DG. Did he ever conduct any
> other Mahler?
No, that's the only Mahler by Jochum.
J
vhorowitz
about some of his recordings. I brought up the Van Beinum Das Lied,
which was my first recording of the work, but he started talking about
the Jochum recording, and said that was his favorite of his Das
Lied's, and one of his favorites, period.
Neal
Paul Goldstein
says...
It has long been one of my favorites as well. Strange that it is not better
known - I guess because it came out at the very end of the mono era.
Bob Harper
excellence, and too bad there's no other Mahler from him. I could
imagine 4 and 9 (at least) being wonderful.
Bob Harper
A. Brain
news:f66do...@drn.newsguy.com...
I believe I have mentioned this before. I had wondered
about Jochum, since he stayed around during the
Third Reich. I did a little research on him and found
that he supposedly had a little enclave or oasis in
Hamburg and continued to play some of the music
that had been banned. He also supposedly started
taking English lessons once the British came into the
war, explaining (later) that he knew they would
eventually show up in Germany.
Then there's that other conductor who did not
do too much Mahler......
--
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
Dontait...@aol.com
> "Paul Goldstein" <pgold...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>
> news:f66do...@drn.newsguy.com...
>
> > In article <1183226278.675523.154...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> > vhorowitz
> > says...
>
> >> Incidentally, a few years ago I met Ernst Haefliger, and asked him
> >>about some of his recordings. I brought up the Van Beinum Das Lied,
> >>which was my first recording of the work, but he started talking about
> >>the Jochum recording, and said that was his favorite of his Das
> >>Lied's, and one of his favorites, period.
>
> > It has long been one of my favorites as well. Strange that it is not
> > better
> > known - I guess because it came out at the very end of the mono era.
>
> I believe I have mentioned this before. I had wondered
> about Jochum, since he stayed around during the
> Third Reich. I did a little research on him and found
> that he supposedly had a little enclave or oasis in
> Hamburg and continued to play some of the music
> that had been banned. He also supposedly started
> taking English lessons once the British came into the
> war, explaining (later) that he knew they would
> eventually show up in Germany.
>
> Then there's that other conductor who did not
> do too much Mahler......
Jochum "stayed around" during the Third Reich not because he liked
those thugs, but because he couldn't easily get out. I heard a story
about it from my friend Bill Donaldson, who came to know Jochum very
well. First when Jochum was conducting at Lyric Opera of Chicago
during the 1960s, Jochum spoke little English, and Bill was fluent in
German. Then when they became good friends. Jochum told Bill:
Around 1941, the Nazis sent the Hamburg PO -- and Jochum -- on a
tour to Finland. Because of the Soviet invasion of 1940, which the
Finns had repelled, Finland had allied itself to Germany and the
Nazis. So Jochum and his orchestra were sent there as a propoganda
gesture.
Jochum told my friend that when they got to Finland, he told
everyone in the orchestra that if they wanted to stay -- escape -- and
try to get out of Nazidom and find a way out, fine. So he came back to
Germany with about 35 people. According to the story, Jochum also got
in big trouble with the Nazis as a result.
Whatever the situation, Jochum was evidently never a Nazi believer.
And...um...who was the conductor who didn't do too much Mahler?
Beecham? Toscanini?
Don Tait
TareeDawg
http://www.karajan.co.uk/mahler.html
According to above link, Fluffykins only ever recorded and performed
DLvDE, 4, 5, 6 and 9, of the purely orchestral works. Not exactly "not
much", and indicating a taste for the better Mahler? Wasn't he thinking
of doing the 3rd toward the end of his life. I think he would have done
this well.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
A. Brain
news:1183247584.5...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Jochum "stayed around" during the Third Reich not because he liked
> those thugs, but because he couldn't easily get out. I heard a story
> about it from my friend Bill Donaldson, who came to know Jochum very
> well. First when Jochum was conducting at Lyric Opera of Chicago
> during the 1960s, Jochum spoke little English, and Bill was fluent in
> German. Then when they became good friends. Jochum told Bill:
>
> Around 1941, the Nazis sent the Hamburg PO -- and Jochum -- on a
> tour to Finland. Because of the Soviet invasion of 1940, which the
> Finns had repelled, Finland had allied itself to Germany and the
> Nazis. So Jochum and his orchestra were sent there as a propoganda
> gesture.
>
> Jochum told my friend that when they got to Finland, he told
> everyone in the orchestra that if they wanted to stay -- escape -- and
> try to get out of Nazidom and find a way out, fine. So he came back to
> Germany with about 35 people. According to the story, Jochum also got
> in big trouble with the Nazis as a result.
>
> Whatever the situation, Jochum was evidently never a Nazi believer.
I was relieved to find that implication in my previous research,
since I somehow found myself buying a lot of Jochum's recordings
when I first started. I think the first were Bruckner symphonies
and masses on DGG, but also the LvB Missa Solemnis and the
Brahms concertos with Gilels. This was at a time when there
were not that many options with Bruckner.
It was only years later that I started wondering what he did
during the Nazi period.
> And...um...who was the conductor who didn't do too much Mahler?
> Beecham? Toscanini?
Another stay-at-home during the Third Reich.
He may have conducted some, but he recorded
very little.
Oddly enough, the one recording I have of
this conductor doing Mahler is one that I consider
a "desert island" disc, but it is seemingly OOP.
And it was not generally available except as an
"import" for some time. And has not been reissued
as a "Legend" or "Original" or whatever. Baffling.
I remember finding it finally at HMV in NYC and
having to pay about $25 for it. And I bought two
just in case.
Guesses?
boombox
A. Brain wrote:
> Another stay-at-home during the Third Reich.
> He may have conducted some, but he recorded
> very little.
>
> Oddly enough, the one recording I have of
> this conductor doing Mahler is one that I consider
> a "desert island" disc, but it is seemingly OOP.
>
uh...Bohm's songs disk with DF-D? (except i don't think it's oop...)
benjo maso
"A. Brain" <abr...@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote in message
news:3xChi.253420$p47....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Furtwängler of course. As a matter of fact, he conducted in the 1930's and
early 1930's Mahler several times (symphonies 1,3 4; Kindertotenlieder,
LEFG). I assume his recording of the Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen is one
of your desert island discs. It certainly isn't mine. Not because of
Furtwängler, but because of DFD. I widely prefer Heinrich Schlusnus (IMO by
far his best recording). Schlusnus'recording is hard to find, but five or
six years ago I bought it in Germany as a "fill-up" of Jochum's Lied von der
Erde(!).
Benjo Maso
Paul Goldstein
I widely prefer Heinrich Schlusnus (IMO by
>far his best recording). Schlusnus'recording is hard to find, but five or
>six years ago I bought it in Germany as a "fill-up" of Jochum's Lied von der
>Erde(!).
That's the one I have too. On the DGG "Resonance" imprint. The Schlusnus
Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen is indeed magnificent.
Paul Goldstein
I was thinking of the van Beinum Das Lied (also with the Concertgebouw, of
course, and also superb) when I made the "late mono" error above; thanks, Bob,
for the correction.
Michael Schaffer
> >news:f66do...@drn.newsguy.com...
> >> In article <1183226278.675523.154...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
According to Osborne's biography, Karajan considered conducting the
8th symphony as well but gave up that idea after he heard Maazel
conduct it in London. It doesn't say though *why* he gave up the idea.
Or maybe it does, but i forgot.
I would have liked to hear the 3rd with him, and the 7th, too.
BTW, what is your obsession with that "Fluffykins" thing? K's hair
never looked fluffy. But what does his hair have to do with things
anyway?
Michael Schaffer
> "A. Brain" <abr...@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote in message
>
> news:3xChi.253420$p47....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
>
>
You probably meant during the 1920s and early 1930s. Yes, I was
surprised myself when I flipped through a book containing all the
programs of the BPhO 1882-1982 and I saw quite a bit of Mahler works
in the programs in the 1920s. I specifically remembered Furtwängler
and the 3rd because that's something I would really have loved to
hear. I was surprised because I had also believed the myth that Mahler
was "almost never" played back then. Where do you have your
information from? I seem to recall that F also conducted the 2nd, but
I may be wrong. I wanted to look through that book again, but it is
very hard to find, and when I last was in Berlin, I forgot to go to
the library and look it up.
Michael Schaffer
I have no contrary information about this, but that story doesn't seem
to make too much sense, especially since Finland at that time was
*allied* to Germany. So it doesn't make sense that people would find
"asylum" there. From what I understand, it wasn't too big a problem to
get *out* of Germany anyway - but maybe that was different during the
war years. My impression though has always been that it wasn't that
hard to get *out*, but to get *in* somewhere else. I know stories of
Jews who tried to get out during the 30s, but simply couldn't find a
place which would have them. Once they managed to get visas to go to
other places, it was apparently not that difficult to leave, certainly
nowhere near as difficult as leaving the Eastern Block later.
Curtis Croulet
> wrong.
THAT would have been something to hear "live."
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W
Terry Simmons
Paul Goldstein <pgol...@newsguy.com> wrote:
Funny, I owned this once, and I am sure it was in stereo.
A. Brain
news:1183251208.0...@k29g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>
> A. Brain wrote:
>> Guesses?
>
> uh...Bohm's Kindertotenlieder with DFD?
That's exactly what I was thinking of.
You can get it on one of those Archiv
CDs, and parts of it on a regular CD coupled
with Ozawa's Mahler 1.
Roland van Gaalen
news:1183264149....@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
<< .... I was surprised myself when I flipped through a book containing all
the
programs of the BPhO 1882-1982 and I saw quite a bit of Mahler works
in the programs in the 1920s. I specifically remembered Furtwängler
and the 3rd because that's something I would really have loved to
hear. I was surprised because I had also believed the myth that Mahler
was "almost never" played back then. ... >>
In the 1930s, Carl Schuricht, also a German of course, was a major Mahler
conductor, at least in the Netherlands.
In those years, he was a regular guest conductor with the Residentieorkest
in The Hague.
According to a contemporary newspaper review, he did an outstanding Sixth as
early as 1930 and it was well received, which is amazing, isn't it.
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl
benjo maso
"Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1183264149....@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
I have my information from "Wilhelm Furtwängler. Die Programma der Konzerte
mit dem Berliner Philharmonischen Orchester 1922-1954".
Of course, he probably conducted Mahler with the Wiener Philharmoniker as
well, but his repertoire with the Berliner Ph.Orch. included:
1923: Orchesterlieder (solsoist: Birgitt Engel)
Lieder eines fahrender Gesellen (Wilhelm Guttmann)
1924: Symf. 3 (Hilde Ellger)
1925: Symf. 1
1929: Symf. 1
1930: 5 Ochesterlieder (Maria Müller)
1932: Symf. 4 (Adelheid Armhold)
1953: Kindertotenlieder (DFD)
By the way, there are several other performances I would love to hear, like
Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique (1925), Tschaikowsky's Francesca da Rimini,
Scriabin's Poème de l'extase (1922), Sibelius' 7th (1935), Strawinski's
Sacre du printemps (1924, 1930), Petrushka (1927), Firebird (1929), Le
Basier de la Fée (1939), Bartok's Dance Suite (1925), Music for Strings,
Percussion and Celesta (1938) and Concerto for Orchestra (1950), Schönberg's
5 Pieces for Orchestra (1922), Variations for Orchestra (1928),
Pianoconcerto's of Rachmaninoff, Prokoviev, Strawinksi with the composer as
soloist, etc., etc.
Benjo Maso
Michael Schaffer
> I have my information from "Wilhelm Furtwängler. Die Programma der Konzerte
> mit dem Berliner Philharmonischen Orchester 1922-1954".
> Of course, he probably conducted Mahler with the Wiener Philharmoniker as
> well,
Indeed he did, and in Leipzig as well, according to the information
under these two links which were just emailed to me:
http://www.furtwangler.net/doc/WF22-34.pdf
http://www.furtwangler.net/conductor.html
Michael Schaffer
wrote:
> "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> schreef in berichtnews:1183264149....@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
> << .... I was surprised myself when I flipped through a book containing all
> the
> programs of the BPhO 1882-1982 and I saw quite a bit of Mahler works
> in the programs in the 1920s. I specifically remembered Furtwängler
> and the 3rd because that's something I would really have loved to
> hear. I was surprised because I had also believed the myth that Mahler
> was "almost never" played back then. ... >>
>
> In the 1930s, Carl Schuricht, also a German of course, was a major Mahler
> conductor, at least in the Netherlands.
>
> In those years, he was a regular guest conductor with the Residentieorkest
> in The Hague.
>
> According to a contemporary newspaper review, he did an outstanding Sixth as
> early as 1930 and it was well received, which is amazing, isn't it.
Indeed it is, but only because we have been conditioned to believe
that Mahler was only really "discovered" later. I think Bernstein had
a lot to do with spreading that myth.
In fact, we are seeing more and more that Mahler was indeed very well
known and not too rarely performed very early on. His music is very
complex and probably somewhat polarizing, so it is not surprising that
some did not take to it that quickly. We have to remember, for
instance, that there were a lot of people who simply did not like and
perform Wagner during his lifetime and for a long time afterwards (and
still today) - but that doesn't mean he wasn't well known and didn't
have followers. Mahler's huge success probably didn't happen quite
that quickly - certainly not on as large a scale as since the late
60s. But these days, I think the music is almost played too much by
too many people who may not even have much to say about it, simply
because the symphonies are such "showpieces". Or rather, they easily
can be abused as such.
Michael Schaffer
> On Jul 1, 4:36 am, "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
>
> > I have my information from "Wilhelm Furtwängler. Die Programma der Konzerte
> > mit dem Berliner Philharmonischen Orchester 1922-1954".
> > Of course, he probably conducted Mahler with the Wiener Philharmoniker as
> > well,
>
> Indeed he did, and in Leipzig as well, according to the information
> under these two links which were just emailed to me:
>
>
> > but his repertoire with the Berliner Ph.Orch. included:
>
> > 1923: Orchesterlieder (solsoist: Birgitt Engel)
> > Lieder eines fahrender Gesellen (Wilhelm Guttmann)
> > 1924: Symf. 3 (Hilde Ellger)
> > 1925: Symf. 1
> > 1929: Symf. 1
> > 1930: 5 Ochesterlieder (Maria Müller)
> > 1932: Symf. 4 (Adelheid Armhold)
> > 1953: Kindertotenlieder (DFD)
>
> > By the way, there are several other performances I would love to hear, like
> > Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique (1925), Tschaikowsky's Francesca da Rimini,
> > Scriabin's Poème de l'extase (1922), Sibelius' 7th (1935), Strawinski's
> > Sacre du printemps (1924, 1930), Petrushka (1927), Firebird (1929), Le
> > Basier de la Fée (1939), Bartok's Dance Suite (1925), Music for Strings,
> > Percussion and Celesta (1938) and Concerto for Orchestra (1950), Schönberg's
> > 5 Pieces for Orchestra (1922), Variations for Orchestra (1928),
> > Pianoconcerto's of Rachmaninoff, Prokoviev, Strawinksi with the composer as
> > soloist, etc., etc.
>
> > Benjo Maso
My memory about the 2nd symphony was apparently incorrect.
Dontait...@aol.com
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
What you say about Finland makes perfect sense. It's been years
since I was told the story, and I could be mis-remembering and
confusing Scandinavian countries. Perhaps it was Sweden, which
remained neutral?
The Nazis sent Furtwangler and the BPO there around 1943 (I've read
that he agreed to go only because Sweden was neutral and had not been
conquered). Might refugees have found shelter there?
Don Tait
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:5ephuoF...@mid.individual.net:
> By the way, there are several other [unrecorded Furtwängler] performances
> I would love to hear, like Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique (1925),
> Tschaikowsky's Francesca da Rimini, Scriabin's Poème de l'extase (1922),
> Sibelius' 7th (1935), Strawinski's Sacre du printemps (1924, 1930),
> Petrushka (1927), Firebird (1929), Le Basier de la Fée (1939), Bartok's
> Dance Suite (1925), Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta (1938) and
> Concerto for Orchestra (1950), Schönberg's 5 Pieces for Orchestra (1922),
> Variations for Orchestra (1928), Pianoconcerto's of Rachmaninoff,
> Prokoviev, Strawinksi
And Bartok (#1)!
> with the composer as soloist, etc., etc.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:1183310853.6...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
> What you say about Finland makes perfect sense. It's been years since I was
> told the story, and I could be mis-remembering and confusing Scandinavian
> countries. Perhaps it was Sweden, which remained neutral?
> The Nazis sent Furtwangler and the BPO there around 1943 (I've read that he
> agreed to go only because Sweden was neutral and had not been conquered).
> Might refugees have found shelter there?
Indeed, many Danish Jews were helped by Danish authorities (sub rosa) to flee
to Sweden.
Dontait...@aol.com
wrote:
> > I seem to recall that F also conducted the 2nd, but I may be
> > wrong.
>
> THAT would have been something to hear "live."
Yes -- I'd love to hear a Furtwangler Mahler 2 in any form. And 3,
perhaps even more. Just a personal preference among the symphonies.
Another Furtwangler concert I'd love to have heard:
New York Philharmonic, January 22 and 23, 1925, Carnegie Hall:
Berlioz: Ov. Benvenuto Cellini
Schumann: Symphony no. 4
Stravinsky: Le Sacre du Printemps
I'll bet everyone with any interest in Furtwangler would love to be
able to hear that. The idea of a Furtwangler Sacre is absolutely
fascinating.
Don Tait
Matthew B. Tepper
> On Jul 1, 12:04?am, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte@_NO_SPAM_verizon.net>
> wrote:
>> > I seem to recall that F also conducted the 2nd, but I may be wrong.
>>
>> THAT would have been something to hear "live."
>
> Yes -- I'd love to hear a Furtwangler Mahler 2 in any form. And 3,
> perhaps even more. Just a personal preference among the symphonies.
With me, as everybody already knows, it's #4.
> Another Furtwangler concert I'd love to have heard:
>
> New York Philharmonic, January 22 and 23, 1925, Carnegie Hall:
>
> Berlioz: Ov. Benvenuto Cellini
> Schumann: Symphony no. 4
> Stravinsky: Le Sacre du Printemps
>
> I'll bet everyone with any interest in Furtwangler would love to be
> able to hear that. The idea of a Furtwangler Sacre is absolutely
> fascinating.
Were there any newspaper reviews published?
benjo maso
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns99607FAA72F...@207.217.125.201...
> Dontait...@aol.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
> typed in news:1183312341....@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Jul 1, 12:04?am, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte@_NO_SPAM_verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>> > I seem to recall that F also conducted the 2nd, but I may be wrong.
>>>
>>> THAT would have been something to hear "live."
>>
>> Yes -- I'd love to hear a Furtwangler Mahler 2 in any form. And 3,
>> perhaps even more. Just a personal preference among the symphonies.
>
> With me, as everybody already knows, it's #4.
>
>> Another Furtwangler concert I'd love to have heard:
>>
>> New York Philharmonic, January 22 and 23, 1925, Carnegie Hall:
>>
>> Berlioz: Ov. Benvenuto Cellini
>> Schumann: Symphony no. 4
>> Stravinsky: Le Sacre du Printemps
>>
>> I'll bet everyone with any interest in Furtwangler would love to be
>> able to hear that. The idea of a Furtwangler Sacre is absolutely
>> fascinating.
>
> Were there any newspaper reviews published?
Yes, there were. It was not a great succes. All the critics agreed that it
was under-rehearsed, and nearly all them remarked that the Philharmonic
substription audience fled in droves throughout the performance.
"... the chief reason, apparently, why the music failed to make a proper
impression was Mr Furtwängler. He customarily conducts the classics without
a score, which permits him freely to do his conductorial calisthenics all
over the podium; for the "Sacre", however, he had the notes in front of him
en he kept his eyes glued to them. This, in ant case, kept him stationary,
but it was not great;y helpful to Stravinwky." (New York Evening Journal)
"We have heard more impressive performancers of the score that that which Mr
Furtwängler gave last night with the Philharmonic. Perhaps he is not wholly
in sympathy with its imaginative wolrd; but the music under his baton missed
fire at more than one point- particularly inthe second part, which was
almost an anti-climax. Nor did the orchestra seem to have mastered
completely the heart-breaking, nerve-wracking task that Stravinsky sets it.
Yet there were thrilling moments in the earlier portions of the work, and Mr
Furtwängler worked up the "Danse de la terre" to a climax of frenetic
power." (Herald Tribune)
(From Sam H. Shiraka's The Devil's Music Master)
Benjo Maso
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:5eqggmF...@mid.individual.net:
> notes in front of him en he kept his eyes glued to them. This, in any
> case, kept him stationary, but it was not greatly helpful to
> Stravinsky." (New York Evening Journal) "We have heard more impressive
> performancers of the score that that which Mr Furtwängler gave last night
> with the Philharmonic. Perhaps he is not wholly in sympathy with its
> imaginative world; but the music under his baton missed fire at more than
> one point- particularly in the second part, which was almost an anti-
> climax. Nor did the orchestra seem to have mastered completely the heart-
> breaking, nerve-wracking task that Stravinsky sets it. Yet there were
> thrilling moments in the earlier portions of the work, and Mr Furtwängler
> worked up the "Danse de la terre" to a climax of frenetic power." (Herald
> Tribune) (From Sam H. Shiraka's The Devil's Music Master)
Thanks for looking that up! It didn't seem to me that it was music he
would find congenial.
benjo maso
I'm not so sure. When he performed the Sacre in Berlin with his own
well-rehearsed orchestra, according to Shiraka the succes was "tremendous".
Which no doubt was one of the reason why he choose the work for one of his
first appearences in the USA. On the other hand, it was clearly a mistake:
the New York Philharmonic had never played it before and Furtwängler had
only two rehearsals to "teach the music to the orchestra".
Benjo Maso
Akiralx
"benjo maso" <benjo...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:5eoeelF...@mid.individual.net...
>
> "A. Brain" <abr...@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote in message
> news:3xChi.253420$p47....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>> <Dontait...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:1183247584.5...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>> Jochum "stayed around" during the Third Reich not because he liked
>>> those thugs, but because he couldn't easily get out. I heard a story
>>> about it from my friend Bill Donaldson, who came to know Jochum very
>>> well. First when Jochum was conducting at Lyric Opera of Chicago
>>> during the 1960s, Jochum spoke little English, and Bill was fluent in
>>> German. Then when they became good friends. Jochum told Bill:
>>>
>>> Around 1941, the Nazis sent the Hamburg PO -- and Jochum -- on a
>>> tour to Finland. Because of the Soviet invasion of 1940, which the
>>> Finns had repelled, Finland had allied itself to Germany and the
>>> Nazis. So Jochum and his orchestra were sent there as a propoganda
>>> gesture.
>>>
>>> Jochum told my friend that when they got to Finland, he told
>>> everyone in the orchestra that if they wanted to stay -- escape -- and
>>> try to get out of Nazidom and find a way out, fine. So he came back to
>>> Germany with about 35 people. According to the story, Jochum also got
>>> in big trouble with the Nazis as a result.
>>>
>>> Whatever the situation, Jochum was evidently never a Nazi believer.
Sounds just the same as Karajan then.
Michael Schaffer
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote in messagenews:Xns99609A2EB92...@207.217.125.201...
>
>
>
> > letters to be typed innews:5eqggmF...@mid.individual.net:
>
> >> "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >>news:Xns99607FAA72F...@207.217.125.201...
> >>> be typed innews:1183312341....@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com:
Pretty daring, too, as a choice for one of his early appearances in
the US, given how new and probably not very widely accepted the piece
still was. It would be interesting to know what attracted WF about
that. Certainly more interesting to know than that Mr Tepper doesn't
think he found it "congenial".
What's that book like, "The Devil's Music Master"? Pretty funny title.
Rather sensationalist - is it serious and well researched?
benjo maso
The titles is sensational indeed, but the book is certainly is serious and
very well researched.
Benjo Maso
Michael Schaffer
I don't think I would read a book with such a title. Sure, "you should
not judge a book by its cover", but if the author feels the need to be
sensationalist to draw attention, I doubt his sincerity to begin with.
This is far too serious a subject too profit from "cheap thrills".
There was a pretty good German movie in the 50s with the title "Des
Teufels General" (The Devil's General), about a general in WWII, but
that was "fictional", obviously based on real events in general, but
"dramatized", not a documentary.
Have you read Prieberg's "Kraftprobe" about the same subject?
Todd Schurk
> In article <f66do801...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> Paul Goldstein <pgold...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <1183226278.675523.154...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>, vhorowitz
> > says...
>
> > > Incidentally, a few years ago I met Ernst Haefliger, and asked him
> > >about some of his recordings. I brought up the Van Beinum Das Lied,
> > >which was my first recording of the work, but he started talking about
> > >the Jochum recording, and said that was his favorite of his Das
> > >Lied's, and one of his favorites, period.
>
> > It has long been one of my favorites as well. Strange that it is not better
> > known - I guess because it came out at the very end of the mono era.
>
> Funny, I owned this once, and I am sure it was in stereo.
The Van Beinum Dlvde was mono. The Jochum stereo. Both had the same
soloists & orchestra.
benjo maso
Yes, I have and I also read Berndt W. Wessling's biography. Shiraka is
neither an historian or a musicologist (I noticed more than once a sometimes
inexplicable mistake, like "[in 1932 Thomas Mann delivered "a lecture in
Brussels ... on the 50th anniversary of Wagner's death"), but writer and
filmmaker. Perhaps not a good sign, but nevertheless its a serious book and
certainly not as sensationalist as its title (or its cover). A negative
point, however, is that from time to time he is far more an apologist than
an unbiased historian. On the other hand he turned up a wealth of material
which cannot be found in Wessling or Prieberg (by the way in the preface he
writes to be "especially grateful to Judith and Fred K. Prieberg for their
friendship and hospitality and for Fred's tireless help with sources,
details and facts").
Benjo Maso
Michael Schaffer
Oops.
> but writer and
> filmmaker. Perhaps not a good sign, but nevertheless its a serious book and
> certainly not as sensationalist as its title (or its cover). A negative
> point, however, is that from time to time he is far more an apologist than
> an unbiased historian.
Can you give examples?
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:46894439$0$37728$5fc3050
@dreader2.news.tiscali.nl:
> Michael Schaffer <ms1...@gmail.com> - Mon, 02 Jul 2007 09:46:48 -0700:
>
>> Oops.
>
>> Can you give examples?
>
> Look how much you quoted (more than 160 lines) and how little you
> wrote.
You mean he did a loeb?
benjo maso
On Jul 2, 9:43 am, "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
> "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
>> but writer and
>> filmmaker. Perhaps not a good sign, but nevertheless its a serious book
>> and
>> certainly not as sensationalist as its title (or its cover). A negative
>> point, however, is that from time to time he is far more an apologist
>> than
>> an unbiased historian.
> Can you give examples?
Above all it's the general way he is presenting the facts. But see for
instance hwat he's wrting about the execution of Karlrobert Kreiten, a
brilliant young pianist who had made disparaging remarks about the Nazi's in
1943. Furtwängler had tried to save him, but in vain. And then Shirakawa
comments: "Was Kreiten's execution ordered out of spite for Furtwängler
personally? Possibly. Nobody else in the Third Reich at this point was
taking any kind of stand against the Nazi's except Furtwängler. Nobody who
was even suspected of sedition escaped severe and sometimes mortal
punishment - except Furtwängler." Let's say I frowned my brows a little.
Benjo Maso
Dontait...@aol.com
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote in messagenews:Xns99607FAA72F...@207.217.125.201...
>
>
>
>
>
> > typed innews:1183312341....@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com:
> - Show quoted text -
Many thanks for this (since Matthew's question referred to my post).
Don Tait
thoren...@yahoo.com
> On Jun 30, 10:10 am, "Richard Sauer" <chong...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > Jochum's only Mahler recording is DLVDE on DG. Did he ever conduct any
> > other Mahler?
>
> No, that's the only Mahler by Jochum.
>
> J
Actually there is a 1966 Leider recording with The Bayerschen
Rundfunk,that dates from 1966.This was a radio tape,that was issued on
a CD,years back.
Roger
Michael Schaffer
> "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1183394808....@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 2, 9:43 am, "benjo maso" <benjo.m...@chello.nl> wrote:
>
> > "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >> but writer and
> >> filmmaker. Perhaps not a good sign, but nevertheless its a serious book
> >> and
> >> certainly not as sensationalist as its title (or its cover). A negative
> >> point, however, is that from time to time he is far more an apologist
> >> than
> >> an unbiased historian.
> > Can you give examples?
>
> Above all it's the general way he is presenting the facts. But see for
> instance hwat he's wrting about the execution of Karlrobert Kreiten, a
> brilliant young pianist who had made disparaging remarks about the Nazi's in
> 1943. Furtwängler had tried to save him, but in vain. And then Shirakawa
> comments: "Was Kreiten's execution ordered out of spite for Furtwängler
> personally? Possibly. Nobody else in the Third Reich at this point was
> taking any kind of stand against the Nazi's except Furtwängler. Nobody who
> was even suspected of sedition escaped severe and sometimes mortal
> punishment - except Furtwängler." Let's say I frowned my brows a little.
>
> Benjo Maso
Why? I don't quite follow you here. Sorry to be so slow, but I don't
understand why this is apologetic - it seems to be true that while
less known people could easily disappear at that point, more prominent
people like WF had a certain degree of immunity. Although I would
agree that he wasn't the only one.
benjo maso
I certainly would't suggest you're slow. Perhaps `apology' isn't the right
word or perhaps it's a bad example. Anyhow, it's difficult to find a better
one (besides I've read it about 15 years ago), because what I didn't like in
the book were not a few passages, but the general tenor of his argument. IMO
a historian must be neither the prosecutor nor the counsel for the defense.
But reading the 200 pages about 1933-45 is reading a long plea in favor of
Furtwängler. The few lines I quoted are in that respect not untypical. It's
not his stance which I dislike (which is more or less the same as
Prieberg's - and I'm convinced he is right), but the way he is defending it.
Benjo Maso