Karajan and Sabine Meyer
Josep Vilanova
main reason was his insistence in having Sabine Meyer as a clarinet
player and the refusal of the orchestra to have female players. At
that time people rumoured of a sexual relationship between Karajan and
an inept clarinet player (looking at pics of Karajan at that time, it
sounds unlikely that he could be up to anything like that). I just got
the DVD of Karajan conducting Beethoven 4 and 5, and in the 4th
symphony the clarinet player is an androginous individual with long
hair that may look like Sabine Meyer. Then the question is: is that
Sabine Meyer? Did she really managed to play in the orchestra and
appear in the telemondial films?
Josep Vilanova
Dan Koren
news:1e1ceae6.03112...@posting.google.com...
I believe the real reason for the split was
the ever aggravating clash of egos between
the Maestro and the Orchestra Management
Committee (if memory serves, the BPO is
self managing). The Sabine Meyer incident
was probably no more than a convenient
pretext.
dk
Andrew T. Kay
>When Karajan split up with the Berlin Philarmonic, I believe that the
>main reason was his insistence in having Sabine Meyer as a clarinet
>player and the refusal of the orchestra to have female players.
He carried on with them for several (stormy) years after that row.
>At
>that time people rumoured of a sexual relationship between Karajan and
>an inept clarinet player (looking at pics of Karajan at that time, it
>sounds unlikely that he could be up to anything like that).
I can't answer your question about the identity of the person in the DVDs, but
I don't think even the most hard-line anti-Meyer players in the BPO ever
claimed she was an inept clarinet player. If anyone did, her subsequent career
as a sought-after live performer and an acclaimed recording artist has made the
claim seem foolish. Karajan, whatever his other demerits of character, was too
much of a musician ever to try to force some clarinet's answer to Vanessa-Mae
on a great orchestra.
As I recall, while the players conceded that she was a fine musician, they felt
her sound didn't "blend" properly with that of other players in their wind
section, or something. Karajan wasn't satisfied with the explanation, and felt
it was a smokescreen for some other reasons they didn't want to state openly
(including but not limited to her gender). I'm sure someone else can provide a
fuller account.
--Todd K
Matthew燘. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
news:1e1ceae6.03112...@posting.google.com:
I've seen pics of Sabine Meyer, and she doesn't look "androgynous" to me:
http://inkpot.com/classical/people/sabinemeyer.jpg
http://www.musicweb.uk.net/SandH/2001/May01/meyer.jpg
Maybe not Pamela Anderson with big Hollywood boobs or anything, but still.
If anything, she looks at bit like Kristin Scott Thomas, to whom (believe
it or not) I am related by marriage.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
War is Peace. ** Freedom is Slavery. ** It's all Napster's fault!
Andrew T. Kay
>At
>that time people rumoured of a sexual relationship between Karajan and
>an inept clarinet player (looking at pics of Karajan at that time, it
>sounds unlikely that he could be up to anything like that)
Oh, I don't know. Obviously his mobility had been compromised by his spinal
problems, but if he were still inclined to carry on an affair with a young
woman (and some intimates claim his tastes ran in other directions), they had
several options that wouldn't have required him to move very much. Think about
what a clarinettist does, after all.
--Todd K
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
Obviously you have been reading the Adventures of Marvelous Monica.
TD
Dan Koren
news:5ijcsv4onof9gjnb6...@4ax.com...
Rumors have it that Karajan liked it better on the other end.
After all, he was of Greek origin, wasn't he?
dk
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
Who can tell. That whole part of the Mediterranean is full of mongrel
races.
TD
Dan Koren
news:gascsvs027ar9c3gt...@4ax.com...
>
> Who can tell. That whole part of the
> Mediterranean is full of mongrel races.
>
As opposed to... Canada?
dk
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
><deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>As opposed to... Canada?
We have multiculturalism here and celebrate diversity.
No melting pots allowed on the stove.
No loose fornication among the natives.
TD
Dan Koren
news:p80dsv03efvm3slo4...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 22:58:58 GMT, "Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> ><deac...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:gascsvs027ar9c3gt...@4ax.com...
> >>
> >> Who can tell. That whole part of the
> >> Mediterranean is full of mongrel races.
>
> > As opposed to... Canada?
>
> We have multiculturalism here and celebrate diversity.
Not to mention hypocrisy.
dk
Martha & Russ Oppenheim
Karajan also took much interest in the career of Anne-Sophie Mutter, who
in turn was fascinated by the fact that HvK piloted his own private jet,
and, considerably less famously, maintained a small but well-kept
collection of military aircraft. There was a Messerschmidt, a Stuka, a
Heinkel, and a Fokker. Anne-Sophie was especially taken with the
latter, and Karajan as a gesture of affection "gave" it to her. On
several occasions he took her up in it, and performed various
aerobatics, causing observers on the ground to remark, "There goes that
crazy Mutterfokker."
Andrew T. Kay
>Karajan also took much interest in the career of Anne-Sophie Mutter, who
>in turn was fascinated by the fact that HvK piloted his own private jet,
>and, considerably less famously, maintained a small but well-kept
>collection of military aircraft. There was a Messerschmidt, a Stuka, a
>Heinkel, and a Fokker. Anne-Sophie was especially taken with the
>latter, and Karajan as a gesture of affection "gave" it to her. On
>several occasions he took her up in it, and performed various
>aerobatics, causing observers on the ground to remark, "There goes that
>crazy Mutterfokker."
HvK also was amused that ASM bought a Porsche to match his own, even though at
the time she was not old enough to drive it.
--Todd K
Matthew Vaughan
news:20031127133445...@mb-m15.aol.com...
> As I recall, while the players conceded that she was a fine musician, they
felt
> her sound didn't "blend" properly with that of other players in their wind
> section, or something. Karajan wasn't satisfied with the explanation, and
felt
> it was a smokescreen for some other reasons they didn't want to state
openly
> (including but not limited to her gender). I'm sure someone else can
provide a
> fuller account.
This is a common enough reason for an orchestra to reject even the very best
musicians. It's actually quite common for a splendid virtuoso (who somehow
managed to stand out in the field of other splendid virtuosi who auditioned)
to win a position in an orchestra, but not make it through the probationary
period due to a poor fit with the sound of the section.
Matthew燘. Tepper
the following letters to be typed in news:3FC6C86E...@satx.rr.com:
ROFLMAO!
Josep Vilanova
>
> I've seen pics of Sabine Meyer, and she doesn't look "androgynous" to me:
>
> http://inkpot.com/classical/people/sabinemeyer.jpg
>
> http://www.musicweb.uk.net/SandH/2001/May01/meyer.jpg
I know she doesn't! But that clarinet player is confusing. I showed
the DVD to a couple of friends of mine and they think it's a man, but
they can't be sure. He/she wears a turtle neck jumper instead of the
white tie and it's filmed quite prominently (in one ocassion,
superimposed with the image of Karajan conducting). I've heard about
the gay rumours about Karajan (I believe there is a picture of him
lying down and looking femenine next to Hans Hotter). After all the
androginous clarinet player looks a bit like a grown up version of the
boy in Death in Venice, but with worse skin.
josep
Diaz Philipp
I cannot prove if it is really Sabine Meyer on that DVD (because I
haven't seen it).
But Sabine Meyer played for one year in the orchestra, in her
probationary year. Every new member of the BPO have to do this. And
afterwards there is (another) vote from the Orchestra whether the
collaboration will be fixed or not.
Kai-Uwe
DelMarva LaPoule
>
> We have multiculturalism here and celebrate diversity.
>
> No melting pots allowed on the stove.
>
> No loose fornication among the natives.
>
Ah. Well, tight fornication is always to be preferred.
--
DelMarva LaPoule
Poetry in Poultry
"Opinion, in the face of reality, becomes dogma."
DelMarva LaPoule
>
>>"Andrew T. Kay" wrote:
>>
>>
>>Karajan also took much interest in the career of Anne-Sophie Mutter, who
>>in turn was fascinated by the fact that HvK piloted his own private jet,
>>and, considerably less famously, maintained a small but well-kept
>>collection of military aircraft. There was a Messerschmidt, a Stuka, a
>>Heinkel, and a Fokker. Anne-Sophie was especially taken with the latter,
>>and Karajan as a gesture of affection "gave" it to her. On several
>>occasions he took her up in it, and performed various aerobatics, causing
>>observers on the ground to remark, "There goes that crazy Mutterfokker."
>
>
> ROFLMAO!
>
Priceless! Thanks!
arri bachrach
I hear that part of Canada also abounds with mongrels, both human and others.
AB (from pure Brooklyn)
deac...@yahoo.com
Here we celebrate our mongrel heritage and call it multiculturalism.
TD
On 28 Nov 2003 10:01:50 -0800, abac...@att.net (arri bachrach)
wrote:
Matthew燘. Tepper
letters to be typed in
> so Tom, now not only do you need a "hearing aid" but now you are a
> pseudo racist.
You only just now noticed?
> I hear that part of Canada also abounds with mongrels, both human and
> others.
There are bad people and good people in every part of the world.
I think the best example of a healthy attitude was expressed by Aunt Eller
in "Oklahoma" (though watch out for the double negative, which is intended
to emphasize rather than cancel):
"I don't say I'm no better than anybody else,
But I'll be danged if I ain't just as good!"
> AB (from pure Brooklyn)
>
>> >
>> >Rumors have it that Karajan liked it better on the other end.
>> >
>> >After all, he was of Greek origin, wasn't he?
>>
>> Who can tell. That whole part of the Mediterranean is full of mongrel
>> races.
>>
>> TD
--
arri bachrach
AB
Raymond Hall
news:rJBxb.8243$Wy2.1...@typhoon.sonic.net...
|
| This is a common enough reason for an orchestra to reject even the very
best
| musicians. It's actually quite common for a splendid virtuoso (who somehow
| managed to stand out in the field of other splendid virtuosi who
auditioned)
| to win a position in an orchestra, but not make it through the
probationary
| period due to a poor fit with the sound of the section.
What makes the above highly unlikely, at least to me, is that it will always
be the conductor that will have the best vantage point to determine whether
a great soloist blends into the section sound-wise. Apparently Herbie though
that Sabine Meyer did.
But your point is a valid one in general, but not I fear in the Sabine Meyer
affair.
Regards,
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)
Ray, Taree, NSW
steve wolk
"arri bachrach" <abac...@att.net> wrote in message
news:904130a9.03112...@posting.google.com...
> so Tom, now not only do you need a "hearing aid" but now you are a pseudo
racist.
There's nothing "pseudo" about it.
Dan Koren
> aid" but now you are a pseudo racist.
>
No, he is a real one.
dk
deac...@yahoo.com
wrote:
>There's nothing "pseudo" about it.
Ah, I was waiting for little Stevie to raise his ugly head.
And sure enough, here he is.
Pseudo is something he knows a great deal about.
TD
Norman Schwartz
"Josep Vilanova" <josepv...@macmail.com> wrote in message
news:1e1ceae6.03112...@posting.google.com...
> When Karajan split up with the Berlin Philarmonic, I believe that the
> main reason was his insistence in having Sabine Meyer as a clarinet
> player and the refusal of the orchestra to have female players. At
> that time people rumoured of a sexual relationship between Karajan and
> an inept clarinet player (looking at pics of Karajan at that time, it
> sounds unlikely that he could be up to anything like that). I just got
> the DVD of Karajan conducting Beethoven 4 and 5, and in the 4th
> symphony the clarinet player is an androginous individual with long
> hair that may look like Sabine Meyer. Then the question is: is that
> Sabine Meyer? Did she really managed to play in the orchestra and
> appear in the telemondial films?
IIRC (and I usually don't!) the media had it that HvK's illness and repeated
absence from rehearsals and cancellations of the orchestra's commitments
prompted management to request his stepping aside or *down*. At which time
Herbie shouted back that he had an appointment for life and would abdicate
the throne whenever *he* chose to do so.
Alan Watkins
> main reason was his insistence in having Sabine Meyer as a clarinet
> player and the refusal of the orchestra to have female players. At
> that time people rumoured of a sexual relationship between Karajan and
> an inept clarinet player (looking at pics of Karajan at that time, it
> sounds unlikely that he could be up to anything like that). I just got
> the DVD of Karajan conducting Beethoven 4 and 5, and in the 4th
> symphony the clarinet player is an androginous individual with long
> hair that may look like Sabine Meyer. Then the question is: is that
> Sabine Meyer? Did she really managed to play in the orchestra and
> appear in the telemondial films?
>
I would not know about rumours of a sexual relationship between Mr
Karajan and Sabine Meyer but when I heard her in Prague I thought her
a great player.
I did not personally think her inept. I do not know the DVD of
Karajan that you refer to but I have an LP and CD of Scheherazade
conducted by him with the Berlin Philharmonic and in the first
movement of that the timpanist is probably not "inept" but is
seriously out of tune and later (for whatever reason, possibly the
direction of the conductor?) chooses to ignore the magnificent part
for the timpani in the last few bars of this work.
On the other hand, the snare drum playing in the recording I have is
absolutely magnificent.
If the girl is making a living I would guess she is not that inept but
that is a guess.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Alan Watkins
> afterwards there is (another) vote from the Orchestra whether the
> collaboration will be fixed or not.
>
> Kai-Uwe
That sounds like utter bollocks to me. You can either play the
instrument to professional standard or you cannot.
After deciding whether the "collaboration will be fixed or not" what
do I do in a performance when the horns f**k up? Report them?
Dear Orchestral Manager,
I regret that I have to report that last Thursday our horn section
f****d up in a performance of Swan Lake. I would like to point out
that the principal horn attempted an E flat but busted the note
although I appreciate his collaboration has been previously fixed. I
also have evidence that our our previously collaborated tambourine
player buggered a thumb roll (in my hearing) and despite the fact that
both have been playing in our orchestra for over 20 years I think we
should vote on whether their collaboration will be fixed or not.
Yours sincerely,
A Well Wisher
Alan Watkins
movement of DGG Scheherazade/Karajan was a "fixed" appointment or
whether he was merely a probationary player.
Either way, as previously mentioned, he is seriously out of tune.
Michael Lockhart
news:bq8u2k$1un1ln$1...@ID-101911.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "Matthew Vaughan" <matt-no-...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:rJBxb.8243$Wy2.1...@typhoon.sonic.net...
> | This is a common enough reason for an orchestra to reject even the very
> best
> | musicians. It's actually quite common for a splendid virtuoso (who
somehow
> | managed to stand out in the field of other splendid virtuosi who
> auditioned)
> | to win a position in an orchestra, but not make it through the
> probationary
> | period due to a poor fit with the sound of the section.
>
> What makes the above highly unlikely, at least to me, is that it will
always
> be the conductor that will have the best vantage point to determine
whether
> a great soloist blends into the section sound-wise. Apparently Herbie
though
> that Sabine Meyer did.
>
> But your point is a valid one in general, but not I fear in the Sabine
Meyer
> affair.
Actually, it was the reason given in the Meyer affair. They didn't like
her; out she went. After the probationary year, the orchestra decides
whether the newbie stays. They didn't like her, so, she was gone. A
conductor may have arguably the best vantage point, but the Berlin
Philharmonic has chosen to do its hires that way. I think it's a good idea,
in general.
Sabine Meyer was a very, very good player back then. She was nowhere near
Karl Leister's level, but she was placed co-principal with him. I can
understand why they didn't like that. On the other hand, it sounds like, in
the following twenty years, she has gotten significantly better. I heard
part of a recording of hers on the radio a couple of months ago, and I
actually waited to hear who it was. She sounded excellent. I might buy a
(new) CD of hers someday soon. Assuming I wasn't too misled by listening
and driving. :-)
A note about her playing "badly" (which I myself said back then): these
things are all relative. She didn't make a mistake in her probationary year
(according to a friend of mine from Juilliard). Tough business, isn't it,
where you can play "perfectly" and still be thrown out after your
probationary period?
Michael
Michael Lockhart
news:62c8649c.03112...@posting.google.com...
> josepv...@macmail.com (Josep Vilanova) wrote in message
news:<1e1ceae6.03112...@posting.google.com>...
> > When Karajan split up with the Berlin Philarmonic, I believe that the
> > main reason was his insistence in having Sabine Meyer as a clarinet
> > player and the refusal of the orchestra to have female players. At
> > that time people rumoured of a sexual relationship between Karajan and
> > an inept clarinet player (looking at pics of Karajan at that time, it
> > sounds unlikely that he could be up to anything like that). I just got
> > the DVD of Karajan conducting Beethoven 4 and 5, and in the 4th
> > symphony the clarinet player is an androginous individual with long
> > hair that may look like Sabine Meyer. Then the question is: is that
> > Sabine Meyer? Did she really managed to play in the orchestra and
> > appear in the telemondial films?
>
> Karajan and Sabine Meyer but when I heard her in Prague I thought her
> a great player.
>
> I did not personally think her inept. I do not know the DVD of
> Karajan that you refer to but I have an LP and CD of Scheherazade
> conducted by him with the Berlin Philharmonic and in the first
> movement of that the timpanist is probably not "inept" but is
> seriously out of tune and later (for whatever reason, possibly the
> direction of the conductor?) chooses to ignore the magnificent part
> for the timpani in the last few bars of this work.
>
> On the other hand, the snare drum playing in the recording I have is
> absolutely magnificent.
>
> If the girl is making a living I would guess she is not that inept but
> that is a guess.
Inept is, of course, a harsh term for a person who never makes a single
mistake in one year of performing. Perhaps a better term might be,
"substandard". For them.
Michael
Michael Lockhart
> And
> > afterwards there is (another) vote from the Orchestra whether the
> > collaboration will be fixed or not.
>
> instrument to professional standard or you cannot.
Come now, that's silly. Take any British clarinettist, say, and throw them
into the Berlin Philharmonic. It would cause chaos. There would be a
mutiny. Look at the VPO, for Heaven's sake, and their oboe selection!
Orchestras want to have a "sound", and if they don't like you, tough. Just
because you can play the notes right doesn't mean you make them *sound*
right for that orchestra.
Michael
ansermetniac
mdloc...@bellsouth.net says...
Good point about English clarinetists in the Berlin Phil!!!
French Hornist John Cerminaro fell in love with his Paxman high F horn
after playing the Schumann Koncertstuck. He tried to play it as his
normal horn in the NY Phil. Because the section players played with
Chambers and Martin Smith, the associate also played that way, Cerminaro
was shown the door, after more than 6 years or so. Martin Smith quit
while Jerry Ashby was subbing for him for a year, so they asked him to
stay.
Abbedd
Van Eyes
news:GWayb.21138$u7.1...@bignews2.bellsouth.net
> Actually, it was the reason given in the Meyer affair. They didn't like
> her; out she went. After the probationary year, the orchestra decides
> whether the newbie stays. They didn't like her, so, she was gone....Tough business, isn't it,
> where you can play "perfectly" and still be thrown out after your
> probationary period?
Principals are not held to the same stringent probationary rules. And
she left after 9 months...her choice, not theirs. She had come from the
Bavarian RSO, and decided a solo career was better, sooner rather than
later.
Regards
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Andrew T. Kay
> Take any British clarinettist, say, and throw them
>into the Berlin Philharmonic. It would cause chaos. There would be a
>mutiny.
?
I don't know about a British clarinettist, but they weren't far from your
hypothetical model when they had an Irish solo flautist (James Galway) for
several years, and neither the orchestra nor the flautist seems to have
suffered for the experience.
There's actually a good anecdote associated with that hiring, which I'm sure
most of this group knows, but it might be new to someone out there. Galway
auditioned for and won this vacant position in 1969, and when Stresemann (the
BPO's then-intendant) told him the job was his and Galway replied that he'd
"think about it," Stresemann imperiously informed him, "In Germany you are
required by law to accept a position for which you've successfully auditioned."
Galway, not cowed in the least, responded, "And who's German 'round here?"
(Osborne HvK bio, p. 568)
--Todd K
Matthew Vaughan
news:bq8u2k$1un1ln$1...@ID-101911.news.uni-berlin.de...
> news:rJBxb.8243$Wy2.1...@typhoon.sonic.net...
> |
> | This is a common enough reason for an orchestra to reject even the very
> best
> | musicians. It's actually quite common for a splendid virtuoso (who
somehow
> | managed to stand out in the field of other splendid virtuosi who
> auditioned)
> | to win a position in an orchestra, but not make it through the
> probationary
> | period due to a poor fit with the sound of the section.
>
> What makes the above highly unlikely, at least to me, is that it will
always
> be the conductor that will have the best vantage point to determine
whether
> a great soloist blends into the section sound-wise. Apparently Herbie
though
> that Sabine Meyer did.
Other members of the orchestra, particularly those in the section the player
in question sits in, can judge this quite well also. I wouldn't say that the
conductor necessarily has a better ability or is in a better position to
hear this than the rest of the orchestra.
This would be particularly true for an orchestra with such a particular
sound (which had been cultivated for decades) and ability to blend perfectly
as the Berlin Philharmonic, not to mention one that prides itself on being
self-governing.
Stephen North
> "Raymond Hall" <haxxr...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:bq8u2k$1un1ln$1...@ID-101911.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > "Matthew Vaughan" <matt-no-...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:rJBxb.8243$Wy2.1...@typhoon.sonic.net...
> > |
> Other members of the orchestra, particularly those in the section the player
> in question sits in, can judge this quite well also. I wouldn't say that the
> conductor necessarily has a better ability or is in a better position to
> hear this than the rest of the orchestra.
>
> This would be particularly true for an orchestra with such a particular
> sound (which had been cultivated for decades) and ability to blend perfectly
> as the Berlin Philharmonic, not to mention one that prides itself on being
> self-governing.
>
And, like the VPO, had a distinct gender bias.....
S
Michael Lockhart
news:20031130003502...@mb-m28.aol.com...
> Michael Lockhart wrote:
> > Take any British clarinettist, say, and throw them
> >into the Berlin Philharmonic. It would cause chaos. There would be a
> >mutiny.
> ?
> I don't know about a British clarinettist, but they weren't far from your
> hypothetical model when they had an Irish solo flautist (James Galway) for
> several years, and neither the orchestra nor the flautist seems to have
> suffered for the experience.
Totally different. Galway plays beautifully, and his tone isn't amazingly
different from the normal sound one finds in the Berlin Phil. British
clarinettists, on the other hand, sound *vile* to people who aren't used to
them. Of course, lots of people who are used to them hate them, too. They
are significantly different, in general, in sound from the BPO sound. It
would be an awful combination. Adding a wonderful soloist like Galway
wouldn't be bad per se.
Michael
arri bachrach
also badly tuned.... do you know that recording
Ab
Josep Vilanova
sweet tone. Maybe the type of beatiful sweet tone Karajan was looking
for.
And after thinking about it, it can only be a woman. I don't think
they would have dressed the whole orchestra with white ties and a male
clarinet player with a black turtle neck jumper (I don't think that
any other excuse, like having a propension for to have a sore throat
would justify that jumper). And maybe Sabine Meyer tended to look more
androginous when she was younger! Yes, I'm sure it's Meyer.
Josep
Clovis Lark
I heard her live during that probationary period and she was every bit
equal to her task (I heard her playing Mahler 9, Alpine Symphony, Brahms).
She was not deficiant in any way, both being able to play concerted
passages in proper balance and also able to play solistic ones with
distinction. She was Karajan's third attempt to bring a woman into the
wind section of the BPO. Each time, Lothar Koch, principal oboe who died
this year, organized opposition. the proposed new players were, in
succession, a flautist (in the 60's), an oboist (in the 70's) and Ms.
Meyer. Each one was opposed without a full orchestral hearing from the
start. Yet, up to his death, Karajan didn't have great difficulties in
his proposed male players, nor, in latter years, his suggestions of female
string players, such as Ursula Rossbacher, viola.
Ms. Meyer fell afoul of 2 factors: Koch's longstanding opposition to women
in the BPO winds and Karajan's outdated imperial control of the orchestra.
Neither had anything to do with her qualifications.
Ms. Meyer's successful solo career began immediately upon her
departure from the BPO (no doubt helped by her publicity from the
miserable acrimony). It not only includes enthusiastically received
individual concerts, but the wide praise and extensive recordings of a
wind ensemble she began. At no time have I ever heard anyone in the
clarinet community ever question her technical or musical abilities, and
this includes the most respected US clarinet players.
> A note about her playing "badly" (which I myself said back then): these
> things are all relative. She didn't make a mistake in her probationary year
> (according to a friend of mine from Juilliard). Tough business, isn't it,
> where you can play "perfectly" and still be thrown out after your
> probationary period?
Yup. It remains the discretion of most orchestras to review a decision
made at the end of auditions, where a player is judged in isolation for
their technical and musical potential. Afterall, as in chamber music,
collegiality and the ability to flexibly and sensitively make music with
the ensemble as a group is yet to be ascertained. Perfection in the
former does not necessarily lead to the latter.
> Michael
clovis lark
> And
> > afterwards there is (another) vote from the Orchestra whether the
> > collaboration will be fixed or not.
> >
> > Kai-Uwe
>
> That sounds like utter bollocks to me. You can either play the
> instrument to professional standard or you cannot.
There is playing by yourself for an audition and then there is playing
with others in ensemble, collaboratively. That is why there is the
tenure review. A person might sound fabulous in audition, but be a
total pain to work with, not cooperate, refuse to adjust to meet the
ensemble, etc. A good example was a recent assistant principal cello
audition at the MET (1999). This fella one the position in blind
audition and took his place. Thereafter, he became a thorn in the
principal's side and a general nightmare in the orchestra. He refused
to prepare, he complained when he was told that he would be acting
principal for Wozzeck. The MET was forced to reject his tenure.
>
> After deciding whether the "collaboration will be fixed or not" what
> do I do in a performance when the horns f**k up? Report them?
Depends, doesn't it? You'd be reporting to an internal committee
about what? Fluffing? That occurs routinely. A concerted effort to
undermine a performance? Or would you be drawing attention to
yourself as a poor colleague looking to make trouble (such folks do
exist)?
>
> Dear Orchestral Manager,
>
> I regret that I have to report that last Thursday our horn section
> f****d up in a performance of Swan Lake. I would like to point out
> that the principal horn attempted an E flat but busted the note
> although I appreciate his collaboration has been previously fixed. I
> also have evidence that our our previously collaborated tambourine
> player buggered a thumb roll (in my hearing) and despite the fact that
> both have been playing in our orchestra for over 20 years I think we
> should vote on whether their collaboration will be fixed or not.
Bet you'd need to have some lawyer explain the contract to you...
clovis lark
> In article <6_ayb.21188$u7.1...@bignews2.bellsouth.net>,
> mdloc...@bellsouth.net says...
> > "Alan Watkins" <alanwa...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:62c8649c.0311...@posting.google.com...
> > > And
> > > > afterwards there is (another) vote from the Orchestra whether the
> > > > collaboration will be fixed or not.
> > >
> > > That sounds like utter bollocks to me. You can either play the
> > > instrument to professional standard or you cannot.
> >
> > Come now, that's silly. Take any British clarinettist, say, and throw them
> > into the Berlin Philharmonic. It would cause chaos. There would be a
> > mutiny. Look at the VPO, for Heaven's sake, and their oboe selection!
> > Orchestras want to have a "sound", and if they don't like you, tough. Just
> > because you can play the notes right doesn't mean you make them *sound*
> > right for that orchestra.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> Wasn't Herseth's replacement in the CSO canned after a year?
His replacement did his full 2 year probation.
Matthew Vaughan
> > afterwards there is (another) vote from the Orchestra whether the
> > collaboration will be fixed or not.
> >
> > Kai-Uwe
>
> That sounds like utter bollocks to me. You can either play the
> instrument to professional standard or you cannot.
In many top orchestras it's not that simple. "Professional standard" is
enough to get invited to audition, but not enough to win the job, let alone
keep it. Here's an example from the San Francisco Symphony, which I'm sure
occurs quite frequently in other orchestras. From (acting) principal horn
Bob Ward's webpage at http://home.earthlink.net/~rnward/ (edited for clarity
and length):
<<
Third Horn audition results
September 3, 1996
About 200 players applied and sent their resumes. We invited about 50 from
the resumes. The rest got letters asking them to send a tape. 40 players
sent tapes, and we chose 3.
Round 1: (35 players -- some people didn't attend)
Round 2: (12 players)
Round 3: (6 players)
The one player who qualified for the orchestra, and who will be given a
two-week trial period starting Saturday, September 7, 1996 is...
Karl Pituch, principal horn of the Jacksonville Symphony.
The level of playing was extraordinarily high in the finals, musically and
technically. But Karl's audition stood out in all areas and he was
overwhelmingly approved by the committee. The decision now rests with MTT on
officially hiring him. He is a terrific player and a very nice guy.
October 5, 1996
After the two week trial period, it was jointly decided by the horn section
and Michael Tilson Thomas that Karl Pituch would not be offered the position
of third horn. Karl is an excellent player, but was not a good fit for our
section, so we decided that we would hold another audition at a future date
to be determined. It may be a small, invitation only audition or possibly a
full audition once again. [Karl subsequently won the audition for principal
horn in Detroit - we all wish him well in his new job!]
>>
A similar situation occurred when trying to find a replacement for principal
horn Dave Krehbiel, who retired four years ago. I believe John Zirbel
(principal in Montreal) won the position, but returned to Montreal after not
too long (how long, I don't recall). I don't know any details in this
situation, but I'm guessing it may have been similar to the third horn
situation. (The SFS is having another principal horn audition early in
2004.)
In neither case was the musician "not good enough" by any means, nor did
they appearantly have any trouble getting along with the conductor or other
members of the orchestra. It seems to be a matter of how well their sound
fit into the sound of the section.
arri bachrach
Philadelphia, Muti in the Beethoven 4th symphony.... the tympanist is
also seriously out of tune, IIRC, in the slow movement....
AB
> I did not personally think her inept. I do not know the DVD of
> Karajan that you refer to but I have an LP and CD of Scheherazade
> conducted by him with the Berlin Philharmonic and in the first
> movement of that the timpanist is probably not "inept" but is
> seriously out of tune and later (for whatever reason, possibly the
> direction of the conductor?) chooses to ignore the magnificent part
> for the timpani in the last few bars of this work.
>