Elgar Symphonies from the USA

[Kerrison]

English music enthusiasts will say that Elgar's two symphonies are among the 20th century's greatest. However, am I right in thinking that neither of them has ever had a commercial studio recording by any of the great US orchestras (Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, New York, Cleveland, Los Angeles and so on)?

I do have an M&A Boston SO / Barbirolli set from 1964 with a 'live' Elgar 2nd but that is conducted by a British conductor. Are there any other CD releases of either symphony that I've missed, maybe also of a 'live' broadcast, with one of the top US orchestras but conducted by a non-Brit? I suppose I should add the Elgar / Payne Symphony No. 3 for completeness sake.

[Frank Berger]

On 8/16/2017 2:52 PM, Kerrison wrote:
> English music enthusiasts will say that Elgar's two symphonies are among the 20th century's greatest. However, am I right in thinking that neither of them has ever had a commercial studio recording by any of the great US orchestras (Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, New York, Cleveland, Los Angeles and so on)?
>
> I do have an M&A Boston SO / Barbirolli set from 1964 with a 'live' Elgar 2nd but that is conducted by a British conductor. Are there any other CD releases of either symphony that I've missed, maybe also of a 'live' broadcast, with one of the top US orchestras but conducted by a non-Brit? I suppose I should add the Elgar / Payne Symphony No. 3 for completeness sake.
>

Out of the many recordings I have of the 3 symphonies, the
only one by a non-British orchestra besides the
Boston/Barbirolli you mentioned is one od #2 by Svetlanov
conducting what they call the USSR SO from 1979. Even that
one was "pirated" by one of our regulars. It also is/was on
a Scribendum 20-cd Svetlanov compilation, available at BRO
for $120.

Arkiv list a recording of #2 the Stockholm PO under Oramo
and #1 with the Dresden Staatskapelle under Davis and a
couple of others with Australian and Italian orchestras.

So it's unusual for any non-British orchestra to record
these and if there ever was a recording with an American
Orchestra and an American conductor, it is exceedingly scarce.

[Frank Berger]

The Scribendum set says the Svetlanov Elgar was recorded in
1977, my database says 1979. So either there are two
different recordings (not likely) or one of us is wrong
(probably me). Perhaps the person from whom I acquired my
copy will speak up on the matter.

[boombox]

On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 2:52:20 PM UTC-4, Kerrison wrote:
> English music enthusiasts will say that Elgar's two symphonies are among the 20th century's greatest. However, am I right in thinking that neither of them has ever had a commercial studio recording by any of the great US orchestras (Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, New York, Cleveland, Los Angeles and so on)?
>
> I do have an M&A Boston SO / Barbirolli set from 1964 with a 'live' Elgar 2nd but that is conducted by a British conductor. Are there any other CD releases of either symphony that I've missed, maybe also of a 'live' broadcast, with one of the top US orchestras but conducted by a non-Brit? I suppose I should add the Elgar / Payne Symphony No. 3 for completeness sake.

The only one I know is Zinman and Baltimore doing Symphony No. 1

[chriskh...@gmail.com]

A non-Brit curiosity, if it survives, would be William Steinberg conducting the Elgar second with the Turin RAI Orchestra on 22 May 1953. Having taken the trouble to learn the score and teach it to an orchestra with no Elgarian tradition whatsoever, did Steinberg never play it again in the USA? Not in the studio, that's for sure, but a live performance sometime during his long reign in Pittsburgh? Or did the experience leave him with no wish ever to do it again?

[Terry]

On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 4:52:20 AM UTC+10, Kerrison wrote:
> English music enthusiasts will say that Elgar's two symphonies are among the 20th century's greatest. However, am I right in thinking that neither of them has ever had a commercial studio recording by any of the great US orchestras (Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, New York, Cleveland, Los Angeles and so on)?
>
> I do have an M&A Boston SO / Barbirolli set from 1964 with a 'live' Elgar 2nd but that is conducted by a British conductor. Are there any other CD releases of either symphony that I've missed, maybe also of a 'live' broadcast, with one of the top US orchestras but conducted by a non-Brit? I suppose I should add the Elgar / Payne Symphony No. 3 for completeness sake.

If you live there, can you advise if these symphonies are ever programmed in concerts in the USA?

[Frank Berger]

According to the Pittsburgh SO archives, Steinberg performed
Elgar #2 on 2-20-1953.

[Bill Anderson]

Leonard Slatkin and the St. Louis Symphony performed the Elgar Second IIRC in the early 80's. It was a fine performance. Not sure if it was recorded for broadcast.

[Bob Harper]

Last year Carlos Kalmar programmed #1 with the Oregon Symphony.
Unfortunately I was in Australia visiting my daughter and her family and
missed the live performance. It was, by report and from hearing a
portion on a radio rebroadcast, a magnificent performance. Kalmar seems
to have an affinity for British music, and I can only hope that he will
choose to record Elgar for release on Pentatone. Depends on funding, no
doubt.

Bob Harper

[Randy Lane]

Danny Boy (Barenboim) conducted a lot of Elgar in his Chicago Symphony days, but I see no evidence the Symphonies were ever part of any of the programs.

[chriskh...@gmail.com]

He also gave it on June 30 1951 with the Chicago SO at the Ravinia Festival

[drh8h]

I have a distinct memory of a Steinberg-led performance with the Boston Symphony that was televised.

Dennis

[drh8h]

Not just distinct--a little sleuthing in a newspaper archive shows I probably saw it on November 14, 1976, the old "Evening at Symphony" program on PBS. The only other piece was the "Mercury" movement from "The Planets." I also see a 1966 NY Phil broadcast with him conducting the same symphony.

[Kerrison]

The Wiki entry on the work lists just over 30 commercial recordings of the work. The majority are, of course, with British conductors and orchestras. Sir Adrian Boult recorded it five times and the London Philharmonic recorded it seven times.

The non-British orchestras shown are the USSR Symphony / Svetlanov and the Sydney Symphony / Ashkenazy. The Wiki list has yet to include Barenboim and the Berlin Staatskapelle, though he had previously recorded it with the aforementioned LPO. Also missing is yet another Boult performance, this time with the BBC Symphony from the 1977 Proms on ICA Classics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elgar_Symphony_No._2_discography

I did once have the Slatkin / St Louis broadcast on an audio cassette but I fear the machine chewed it up in an angry mood, so I had to dump it. If memory serves it was a much better performance than his Philharmonia recording for RCA.

[Frank Berger]

On 8/17/2017 4:51 PM, Kerrison wrote:
> The Wiki entry on the work lists just over 30 commercial recordings of the work. The majority are, of course, with British conductors and orchestras. Sir Adrian Boult recorded it five times and the London Philharmonic recorded it seven times.
>

And to think I only have around 15 of them.

> The non-British orchestras shown are the USSR Symphony / Svetlanov and the Sydney Symphony / Ashkenazy. The Wiki list has yet to include Barenboim and the Berlin Staatskapelle, though he had previously recorded it with the aforementioned LPO. Also missing is yet another Boult performance, this time with the BBC Symphony from the 1977 Proms on ICA Classics.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elgar_Symphony_No._2_discography
>
> I did once have the Slatkin / St Louis broadcast on an audio cassette but I fear the machine chewed it up in an angry mood, so I had to dump it. If memory serves it was a much better performance than his Philharmonia

You mean LPO?

> recording for RCA.
>

Of course. The ones that are destroyed or otherwise
unavailable are always better. :-)

[Terry]

On Friday, August 18, 2017 at 2:55:55 AM UTC+10, Randy Lane wrote:
> Danny Boy (Barenboim) conducted a lot of Elgar in his Chicago Symphony days, but I see no evidence the Symphonies were ever part of any of the programs.

I think we have our explanation. Why would a USA orchestra want to record works that they don'y play regularly? Maybe the question we should be discussing is "Why are USA music enthusiasts apathetic towards the Elgar symphonies?"

[Frank Berger]

By enthusiasts do you mean audiences?

[markm...@gmail.com]

I remember a really fine Elgar 2 on a Dallas Symphony concert about 15 years ago. It was conducted by Mark Elder, who prefaced the performance with spoken remarks about the piece, since he rightly assumed the Dallas audience members weren't familiar with the work.

Mark (not Elder)

[Andrew Clarke]

And as a matter interest, how often are they ever programmed in concerts in the UK?

Mid 20th century British composers seemed drawn to write symphonies. Apart from RVW, there's Rubbra, Rawsthorne, Malcolm Arnold, Sir Lennox Berkeley, and Humphrey Searle. I don't suppose they get programmed much either.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[chriskh...@gmail.com]

I make the premise that I've been living outside the UK for many years but I keep some sort of eye on what's happening and I'd say that, since the 70s, the 2 (or 3) Elgars, Walton 1 and VW 2 and 4-6 can be considered standard fare. In my Edinburgh university years (1971-5) I remember hearing, in the Scottish National orchestra season, Elgar 1 twice from Gibson, Elgar 2 from Groves, VW 2 from Gibson and VW 5 from Previn. Also, Gibson gave at least one symphony per season by a living Scottish-based composer. This situation was fairly well mirrored in other British orchestra seasons and has remained stable since then.

It was not ever thus. When I was a teenager, in the 60s, we were still being told that the best Elgar was Enigma and the cello concerto, the symphonies had noble moments but were long and indigestible. Valiant efforts by Boult and Barbirolli tended to be written off as special pleading by conductors who'd been cosy with the composers.

As for the other composers you mention, the list could be greatly extended and no, they're not programmed often, if at all. Many never got beyond an initial performance, usually by the BBC, I think some later symphonies by Arnell, Wordsworth and Cooke have not been performed at all, yet the ones available in recording seem solid stuff and sometimes more. Also, the concentration on symphonies has resulted in the sidelining of composers who preferred other forms.

As for performances of these works outside the UK, reams could be written about this, but Elgar doesn't travel particularly well, whether in the USA or in European countries. When it comes to the "other" composers, it was not only a British habit, in the mid 20th century, to write more symphonies than could ever be reasonably taken into the repertoire. The USA has a similar production (Harris, Persichetti, Diamond, Piston, Schuman, Hanson ...), Sibelius and Nielsen were far from the only Scandinavians writing symphonies, lists could be produced for France, Italy, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Australia .. And everywhere the pattern is the same. Most (not all) of these works managed an initial performance. Revivals, even in their own countries, are almost unheard of.

And yet, if an orchestra set its sights on a proper examination of the 20th century symphonic production of even just its native land, it would have no time left to play Beethoven, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Debussy, Mahler et al, and only a broadcasting orchestra in the good old days of total public subsidy could ever do that. Nor would one seriously propose such a total abandonment of the standard repertoire. It's difficult to see how performances of these "fringe" works could become more than isolated events. Perhaps we should just count ourselves lucky that a fair amount of them have been recorded so those interested can at least hear them.

[maestro...@yahoo.com]

I remember a broadcast performance of #1 with the Munich Phil. conducted by Rudolf Alberth. Must have been decades ago.

[Sol L. Siegel]

Terry <tlst...@tpg.com.au> wrote:

> If you live there, can you advise if these symphonies are ever
> programmed in concerts in the USA?

Philly does Enigma with some frequency, and one of my great "brags" was
attending the Du Pre/Barenboim performance of the Cello Concerto that is
preserved on Sony. The Violin Concerto was not played here until the 1970's
and did not actually get a completely satisfying performance until about
15 years ago with Frank Peter Zimmerman and Sawallisch. Ashkenazy, of all
people, once programmed Falstaff but failed to sell it. Muti once played
In the South, a piece he seems to be fond of. Runnicles recently did
Cockaigne.

The symphonies? The first was been done here a couple of times, and
Andrew Davis did the Payne thing. I have never encountered a live 2nd.

The Orchestra's original program for the coming season included a three-
week British Isles festival with one Elgar work - the Piano Quintet. Last
week came word that *that* has been cancelled in favor of a James
Macmillan piece. No Vaughan Williams, either. Seriously?

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

[Bozo]

An Elgar 1st in Chicago, 2016, and Elgar's 2nd in San Francisco, in 2001 :

https://bachtrack.com/review-elder-chicago-symphony-orchestra-vaughan-williams-elgar-march-2016

http://www.alasdairneale.com/review_11.html

Per the review, 2016 was first time in 30 years the CSO had played the 1st.

[Bozo]

An Elgar 2nd in Chicago, 1984:

8, 9, 10 November 1984
Leonard Slatkin
Joseph Guastafeste, string bass

Bach: Prelude and Fugue, BWV 532 (orch. Respighi)
Karlins: Reflux, Concerto for Amplified String Bass and Solo Wind Ensemble
Elgar: Symphony No. 2

[Andrew Clarke]

On Friday, August 18, 2017 at 4:40:47 PM UTC+10, chriskh...@gmail.com wrote:

> And yet, if an orchestra set its sights on a proper examination of the 20th century symphonic production of even just its native land, it would have no time left to play Beethoven, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Debussy, Mahler et al, and only a broadcasting orchestra in the good old days of total public subsidy could ever do that. Nor would one seriously propose such a total abandonment of the standard repertoire. It's difficult to see how performances of these "fringe" works could become more than isolated events. Perhaps we should just count ourselves lucky that a fair amount of them have been recorded so those interested can at least hear them.

Thanks for this thoughtful and thought-provoking reply. You'd think that the BBC would be in a position to perform these neglected works - the BBC Philharmonic is located deep in Rawsthorne country, for a start.

Fortunately, many of these British symphonists also wrote excellent chamber music - add Peter Racine Fricker to the list. And Naxos have recorded lots of it, making it more available.

Maybe the BBC should organise, at regular intervals, "An English 20th Century Pub Crawl", featuring the works of such celebrated British and Anglo-Australian dipsomaniac composers as Peter Warlock, Constant Lambert, E.J. Moeran and Malcolm Arnold?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Andrew Clarke]

On Friday, August 18, 2017 at 6:18:49 PM UTC+10, maestro...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I remember a broadcast performance of #1 with the Munich Phil. conducted by Rudolf Alberth. Must have been decades ago.

They might be hearing more Elgar in Berlin:

"[Kirill] Petrenko, who likes orphaned works - Elgar's second symphony, the shorter works of Josef Suk, the colour symphonies of Scriabin - could be a game changer."

- Norman Lebrecht, in The Spectator, 12 August 2017.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Kerrison]

> They might be hearing more Elgar in Berlin:
>
> "[Kirill] Petrenko, who likes orphaned works - Elgar's second symphony, the shorter works of Josef Suk, the colour symphonies of Scriabin - could be a game changer."
>
> - Norman Lebrecht, in The Spectator, 12 August 2017.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

There's a brief clip of Kirill Petrenko's Berlin PhO Elgar 2 on You Tube and having seen a video of the whole performance I can say it's the greatest I've ever heard. Just my own opinion, of course, but this little 'taster' should whet any Elgarian's appetite ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aftq_Yrudv8

Co-incidentally, another Russian named Petrenko (any relation?) has recorded it with a British orchestra and his performance is first-rate too. Here is Vasily in heartfelt Elgarian action ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8cUFZ2T0X0&t=401s

[Terry]

Apparently, Barenboim is playing Elgar in Berlin from time to time. I understand that Elgar actually is well appreciated in Germany generally, due to some early championing there just after Gerontius had been premiered in England.

[mswd...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 8:21:06 PM UTC-5, markm...@gmail.com wrote:
> I remember a really fine Elgar 2 on a Dallas Symphony concert about 15 years ago. It was conducted by Mark Elder, who prefaced the performance with spoken remarks about the piece, since he rightly assumed the Dallas audience members weren't familiar with the work.

Elder did the same with Sym. 1 when he conducted it with the CSO last season.

[Frank Berger]

On 8/21/2017 12:58 PM, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 8:21:06 PM UTC-5, markm...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I remember a really fine Elgar 2 on a Dallas Symphony concert about 15 years ago. It was conducted by Mark Elder, who prefaced the performance with spoken remarks about the piece, since he rightly assumed the Dallas audience members weren't familiar with the work.
>

Did they not have recordings in Dallas 15 years ago? Come
to think of it they did. I lived there. I've never heard
an Elgar symphony live. That doesn't mean I'm not familiar
with them. I imagine a fair number in the audience were as
familiar with them as well.

[markm...@gmail.com]

> >> I remember a really fine Elgar 2 on a Dallas Symphony concert about 15 years ago. It was conducted by Mark Elder, who prefaced the performance with spoken remarks about the piece, since he rightly assumed the Dallas audience members weren't familiar with the work.
> >
>
> Did they not have recordings in Dallas 15 years ago? Come
> to think of it they did. I lived there. I've never heard
> an Elgar symphony live. That doesn't mean I'm not familiar
> with them. I imagine a fair number in the audience were as
> familiar with them as well.
>

There are aficionados in the Dallas Symphony audience, but based on years of mixing with and hearing from the that audience as a member of the DSO staff, I can assure you that many in the audience that weekend were hearing Elgar 2 for the first time, live or recorded.

Mark

[Frank Berger]

I believe you.

[Kerrison]

> Apparently, Barenboim is playing Elgar in Berlin from time to time. I understand that Elgar actually is well appreciated in Germany generally, due to some early championing there just after Gerontius had been premiered in England.

Barenboim's Elgar 2 with the Berlin Staatskapelle from the London BBC Proms the other day is already on You Tube. I believe the word 'Proms' has a different meaning in the States but the annual summer music festival at the Royal Albert Hall has about two months of nightly concerts with music ranging from jazz, musicals and movie scores to Berlioz, Mahler, Schoenberg and Shostakovich by way of Indian music and evenings devoted to Ella Fitzgerald and Scott Walker, as well as Mussorgsky's 'Khovantchina' and the St. John Passion! ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmXKudvhOw4&t=83s

[Andrew Clarke]

On Monday, August 21, 2017 at 5:04:20 PM UTC+10, Kerrison wrote:

Thanks for that - it prompted me to go to the Berlin Phil's Digital Concert Hall and Kirill P's performance (in 2009) is listed there. So I'll be able to see the lot!

Speaking of Digital Concert Hall, I'm using the app on my BluRay player, which is reasonably trouble-free and which gives brilliant sound and colour. Hats off to the the BPOs's technical people.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[Al Eisner]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2017, Kerrison wrote:

> Co-incidentally, another Russian named Petrenko (any relation?) has recorded it with a British orchestra and his performance is first-rate too. Here is Vasily in heartfelt Elgarian action ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8cUFZ2T0X0&t=401s

From a Google search, he led the San Franciso Symphony in this work in
2011. A local reviewer panned his conducting of ot in a detailed review:
https://www.sfcv.org/reviews/san-francisco-symphony/petrenko-falters-in-playing-elgar
(I don't know anything about this reviewer; some comments after the review
express different opinions.)
--
Al Eisner

[drh8h]

On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 8:39:08 AM UTC-4, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 8/17/2017 2:17 AM, chriskh...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Il giorno mercoledì 16 agosto 2017 22:50:39 UTC+2, boombox ha scritto:

> >> On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 2:52:20 PM UTC-4, Kerrison wrote:
> >>> English music enthusiasts will say that Elgar's two symphonies are among the 20th century's greatest. However, am I right in thinking that neither of them has ever had a commercial studio recording by any of the great US orchestras (Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, New York, Cleveland, Los Angeles and so on)?
> >>>
> >>> I do have an M&A Boston SO / Barbirolli set from 1964 with a 'live' Elgar 2nd but that is conducted by a British conductor. Are there any other CD releases of either symphony that I've missed, maybe also of a 'live' broadcast, with one of the top US orchestras but conducted by a non-Brit? I suppose I should add the Elgar / Payne Symphony No. 3 for completeness sake.
> >>

> >> The only one I know is Zinman and Baltimore doing Symphony No. 1
> >
> > A non-Brit curiosity, if it survives, would be William Steinberg conducting the Elgar second with the Turin RAI Orchestra on 22 May 1953. Having taken the trouble to learn the score and teach it to an orchestra with no Elgarian tradition whatsoever, did Steinberg never play it again in the USA? Not in the studio, that's for sure, but a live performance sometime during his long reign in Pittsburgh? Or did the experience leave him with no wish ever to do it again?
> >
>
> According to the Pittsburgh SO archives, Steinberg performed
> Elgar #2 on 2-20-1953.

I found a newspaper listing of a performance with the NY Phil in 1966. Plus a November 1976 Boston "Evening at Symphony" featured him conducting it. I distinctly remember that concert, if only because my mother and I were somewhat bored by the work. I have come to like it better since, but never have really warmed to the 1st, which epitomizes B. H. Haggin's opinion of most of Elgar's music, "orchestral doodling."

Dennis

[graham]

Are you sure he wasn't writing about Mahler?

[Andrew Clarke]

On Tuesday, August 22, 2017 at 1:22:38 AM UTC+10, Terry wrote:

> Apparently, Barenboim is playing Elgar in Berlin from time to time. I understand that Elgar actually is well appreciated in Germany generally, due to some early championing there just after Gerontius had been premiered in England.

Richard Strauss was impressed, I believe. I think it was the Enigma Variations that impressed him?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra
*very* impressed with K. Petrenko's Elgar no. 2

[graham]

I understand that Elgar was appreciated in Germany before he was
"discovered" in England and it was due to the EVs.

[Bob Harper]

Remember what B.H. Haggin says about most of Brahms, and add a large
grain of salt to his opinion.

Bob Harper

[Terry]

I've done a little bit of research since my earlier posting: The premiere of Gerontius, in Birmingham under Richter, was an almost total disaster due to the lack of choir rehearsals. There was in the audience a Julius Buths, the Municipal Musical Director of Dusseldorf on Rhine, who instantly saw the value of the piece. He obtained a copy of the score and headed back to the Rhineland, where he translated the libretto into German and organised a performance, which was received rapturously. Elgar was present, and was called onstage after each part for wild applause. At a post-concert dinner, the toast to Elgar was proposed by Richard Strauss, a man who hated speech-making.

I've heard it said that the work is liked in Germany because of its occasional resemblances to Parsifal, but I can't say that that ever occurred to me.

[mswd...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, August 22, 2017 at 2:44:21 PM UTC-5, Al Eisner wrote:
> From a Google search, he led the San Franciso Symphony in this work in
> 2011. A local reviewer panned his conducting of ot in a detailed review:
> https://www.sfcv.org/reviews/san-francisco-symphony/petrenko-falters-in-playing-elgar
> (I don't know anything about this reviewer; some comments after the review
> express different opinions.)

Petrenko's approach to Elgar is hardly uncommon. When you consider that you've got Mravinsky Jr. on the podium, writing a review wishing you had Barbirolli is just showing off.

Petrenko does similar things to Beethoven. It's not my favorite approach, but to me it sounds Russian, and you don't get to hear that every day. (I was at one of the concerts used for the recording below.) When the approach pays off, like in the Symphonic Dances, you call it a good deal.
https://csosoundsandstories.org/petrenko-conducts-rachmaninov/

[Andrew Clarke]

On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 4:52:20 AM UTC+10, Kerrison wrote:
> English music enthusiasts will say that Elgar's two symphonies are among the 20th century's greatest.

I'd be surprised if they did - Elgar's do have some wonderful moments, but really, has any critic in the UK, or anywhere else, placed them in the exalted company of those by Sibelius, Shostakovich or Nielson?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

[graham]

Didn't the latter write a symphony called the "Indistinguishable"?Graham

[chriskh...@gmail.com]

I quote from a feature on 50 great symphonies by Tom Service in the Guardian:

"At the premiere, having got to the end of the deceptively serene finale (the symphony closes with a radiant quietness, the opposite of the tumult of triumph that had capped his First Symphony) Elgar was bemused by the less-than rapturous reaction of his audience. He asked the orchestra's leader, WH Reed, "What's the matter with them, Billy? They sit there like a lot of stuffed pigs". Rather than the porcinity of the public, I think that incomprehension is proof instead of the symphony's enormous expressive richness and complexity. This piece is essential Elgar because its rhetoric is the exact opposite of obvious emotionalism or taken-for-granted symphonic grandiosity. It's ambiguous, elusive, multi-layered, which is why it's so emotionally powerful – and why it's one of the 20th century's most important symphonies".

And I quote it, not because after much searching I found someone mug enough to say such a thing, but because I would say that in British critical writings in recent decades, the greatness of Elgar's symphonies is so much taken for granted that it is not even examined. Perhaps it's time it was examined, after all Shostakovich, and Prokofiev too, have entered the standard repertoire everywhere, Elgar hasn't. There must be a reason.

On the other hand, of the three composers you mention, Sibelius has no more entered the regular repertoire in Italy - and I believe this is true for other Mediterranean countries - than Elgar, and Nielsen remains practically unknown. Interestingly, the Italians began to appreciate Elgar a bit when Sinopoli took him up, yet most British critics can't stand the Sinopoli performances. Jeffrey Tate's long-drawn performances of several British works (and maybe of Sibelius as well) seem to have struck a chord with Italians, too.

One could speculate eternally about why certain composers don't travel, one could also suspect that certain British composers whom the Brits don't attempt to promote might actually travel better (Stanford certainly did in his own day), though in most cases this hasn't been put to the test.

Brits used to assume ignorance on the part of foreigners. When Karajan and the BPO played Ein Heldenleben on a visit to the UK, I recall Neville Cardus in the Guardian protesting about this inflated work. Does Karajan know about the Elgar symphonies, all two of them, he asked?

The answer, I remember reading somewhere in an article by Richard osborne, is that yes, in response to urging by British admirers he requested scores of several Elgar works. Most were returned immediately. He mulled over the 2nd symphony for some time - but in the end didn't do it.

I also recall an interview in which Giulini mentioned he had been looking at Elgar. Again, nothing came of it.

[Bozo]

Perhaps if one composes primarily for one's own satisfaction alone , one should not be surprised if one , or just a few more, appreciate ?

In addition to Walton's Symphony # 1, George Lloyd's Symphony No.7 may be my fav English symphony, the quiet end of the Lloyd a nod to Elgar's No.2 ? :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-LtMOxhvFE

[chriskh...@gmail.com]

Inextinguishable

[Bozo]

>On Sunday, August 27, 2017 at 11:38:04 AM UTC-5, graham wrote:
> Didn't the latter write a symphony called the "Indistinguishable"?Graham

1 mark!

[chriskh...@gmail.com]

Well here's a surprise. Stanford's Irish Symphony in a performance by the Pittsburgh SO conducted by James Galway in 2004.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5B8TzauoWs

From its first performance in 1887 till around 1918 this symphony chalked up far more performances in Europe and North America than either of the Elgar symphonies have to this day, with performances under Von Bulow, Mengelberg, Mahler, Toscanini, Martucci, Damrosch and others.

There's something about Galway's pacing and phrasing that makes it sound more Irish than any of the three commercial recordings available, estimable as they are. Galway also finds greater poetry and passion in the music.

It's pointless to argue whether it's better than Elgar or not, but those who find the stately panoply of the Elgarian sound too much of a good thing might find this highly enjoyable. Galway certainly demonstrates why so many people were taken with it early on.

[drh8h]

Yes, I believe Tully Potter has.

[Rich Sauer]

I have a broadcast of Elgar's 1st with Sir Colin Davis and the NYP.

[Andrew Clarke]

This doesn't surprise me:

(a)given the status of anything Irish in the USA, especially when you have an Irish conductor and an Irish composer;
(b)Stanford's music is well and truly in the Austro-German tradition of Mendelssohn and Brahms;
(c)members of Episcopalian church choirs will be familiar with Stanford's choral settings, which until quite recently was all that Stanford was known for.

Elgar, while being firmly in the late German Romantic tradition is, IMO, sui generis. Under that stately panoply there lived a very sensitive individual, who quoted Shelley's "Rarely, rarely comest thou, spirit of delight", and who seems to have identified that spirit with how the world appears to a child: hence the ebullience of the opening of Symph. 2 - which sounds almost like a signature tune for a children's radio programme - or "the kind of thing you hear by the river" as the trio of the second movement of Symph. 1, not to mention "Dream Children" "The Wand of Youth" and the "Nursery Suite" of course. Kenneth Grahame's "Dream Days" comes to mind also.

I say "sui generis" because I've never heard of Elgar having precursors or epigones. He suffered the fate of being regarded as Old Hat in his old age, even in his own country, until people started to listen to him again in the 1960s, and began to understand that the man who could write the "Introduction and Allegro" had rather more to say than you could find in the "Pomp and Circumstance" marches or "Chanson de matin" or the abominably repetitive "Cockaigne".

People claim, with some reason, that Elgar's music is too repetitious and/or too long for its own thematic material: I heard a German musician give that as the reason why the Cello Concerto is admired on the continent while the Violin Concerto is not.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra