Edin Karamazov
RT
David Raleigh Arnold
That is one of the few renaissance lute pieces that IMO sounds much
better played on a guitar. Unlike most pieces of that class it doesn't
have the fiery work on the first string that was usually featured which
sounds too sweet on guitar. Instead the busy parts are on inside strings
so they profit from the better clarity and balance of the guitar. IMO.
IAC it's a wonderful piece whatever the instrument. daveA
--
Playing "as written" is paying attention, not being a fanatic.
email: darn...@cox.net (put "poisonal" anywhere in subject)
DGT: The only exercises best for all guitarists. Visit
http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html. Original easy solos at:
http://www.openguitar.com. :::=={_o) David Raleigh Arnold
lut...@gmail.com
> That is one of the few renaissance lute pieces that IMO sounds much
> better played on a guitar.
Yes, played like this, it is easyer to play better on the guitar...
Listen to Paul O'Dette version...
Edin is doing "n'importe quoi" (make your own translation...) because
of the caution of Sting.... and making a lot of money with (well good
for him to take...) But for me he is not an example of lute playing
(even if he have some skills)
In fact I do prefer Rolf Lislevand transgressions...
Perhaps Edin should work some of your scales DRA ?
;-)
(don't take me serious as I'm not...)
Val
David Raleigh Arnold
> On 24 jan, 20:01, David Raleigh Arnold wrote:
>
>> That is one of the few renaissance lute pieces that IMO sounds much
>> better played on a guitar.
>
> Yes, played like this, it is easyer to play better on the guitar...
Not at all easier, harder actually, but better. I didn't mean to
comment on the performance at all. It speaks for itself. :-) daveA
Alain Reiher
"RT" <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:EN4mj.6008$Yl.3656@trnddc01...
Remarquable! Exhibit a full comprehension of this fairly new medium
(Youtube), demonstrate a high conception of drama through an unorthodox
approach (finally) of the musical and decor content. The climax is extremely
well built and the last minor chord is brought to express clearly its somber
closing meaning.
Over all, one of the best archaic youtube production up to date.
Alain
>
Robert Crim
In a short word........crap.
Robert
JorgeM
wrote:
> http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y
>
> 'nuf said.
> RT
Thanks for that link!
This is my favorite performance of this mysterious harmonically-way
-ahead-of-its-time piece. So expressive and the way Edin phrases
everything and brings out the structure, it's really great. I have Paul
O'Dette's recording of the FHF and it's technically very good,
perfectly phrased and clean sounding but positively sterile emotionally
compared to Karamzov's.
Also Karamazov has extra bass strings on his Baroque lute/Theorbo
(whatever instrument it is, anybody know?) that give the piece added
depth, resonance and dimension. O'Dette ends the piece on a final
picardy 3rd major chord while Karamazov keeps the minor chord and it's
much more effective and tragic.
This video excerpt comes from Sting's film about Dowland "The Journey
and The Labyrinth" that was shown on PBS in stunning HD, In fact I still
have it saved on my DVR because the picture and sound is of much higher
quality than the DVD they have at Netflix.
This YouTube transfer doesn't do Karamazov justice,the sound is so
beautiful on the video, full and spacious with a beautiful natural
reverb from the space/room he recorded this piece in.
The whole film is a very classy production, informative and educational
as well. People knock Sting for doing this Dowland project but the truth
is I wish he would put this kind of money into more films about great
composers, they all deserve this kind of beautiful tribute.
I highly recommend Karamazov's recording "Come Heavy Sleep" which
features a stunning performance of Britten's Nocturnal on the lute (in
the last section the Passacaglia bass line is played in octaves with the
extra bass strings-very effective and of course when the song Come Heavy
Sleep comes in at the end it's much more authentic-sounding on the lute
than the guitar) and the entire Bach D minor Partita #2 with Chaconne on
the lute as well - gorgeous expressive playing, poetic lyrical phrasing
and beautifully recorded.
Alain Reiher
"JorgeM" <sgy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:sgyr9r-6105F2....@news-server.nyc.rr.com...
Well said! I thought so too.
Thanks for the links.
I do not know why ... sometimes I have the feeling that people freely
criticize out of jealousy.
Alain
Dice...@gmail.com
> "JorgeM" <sgy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> news:sgyr9r-6105F2....@news-server.nyc.rr.com...
>
>
>
Alain,
They're only ever happy when they're the ones on stage. Luteman and
David Arnold are mindnumbingly dumb.
David
Jez
<Dice...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c56b1ba9-a4ef-4d0e...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Typical fucking roadies.
Jez
"Jez" <iced_...@nodamnspamdsl.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:kamdndpSJ-zswATa...@pipex.net...
>
> <Dice...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:c56b1ba9-a4ef-4d0e...@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jan 24, 7:30 pm, "Alain Reiher" <rei...@telus.net> wrote:
>>> "JorgeM" <sgy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>> Well said! I thought so too.
>>> Thanks for the links.
>>> I do not know why ... sometimes I have the feeling that people freely
>>> criticize out of jealousy.
>>>
>>> Alain
>>
>> Alain,
>>
>> They're only ever happy when they're the ones on stage.
>
> Typical fucking roadies.
>
shit...my sig didn't work.
--
Jez, MBA., Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
'Politics is the entertainment branch of industry.'-Zappa
Guitarwhisperer
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:28:52 GMT, "RT" <vze25...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y
>
> >'nuf said.
> >RT
>
> In a short word........crap.
>
> Robert
I agree total crap..... I'm going to write Sting and offer him my
services.
MT
Jez
"Guitarwhisperer" <michae...@starband.net> wrote in message
news:b633eed9-4f0f-41e2...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 24, 5:21 pm, Robert Crim <fritzg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:28:52 GMT, "RT" <vze25...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y
>
> >'nuf said.
> >RT
>
> In a short word........crap.
>
> Robert
**I agree total crap..... I'm going to write Sting and offer him my
**services.
**MT
Don't write from the Himalayas...he'll only try to teach you Tantric sex.
Alain Reiher
"Guitarwhisperer" <michae...@starband.net> wrote in message
news:b633eed9-4f0f-41e2...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
If he was playing on one of your Dresden guitar ... would you say the same
thing?
You have the Police look ... you'll have no problem replacing Andy summers!
have a good trip M. The Alchimiste! (Paulo Coelho)
www.paulocoelho.com/engl/index.html
http://bookreviews.nabou.com/reviews/thealchemist.html
Alain
Andrew Schulman
> This is my favorite performance of this mysterious harmonically-way
> -ahead-of-its-time piece. So expressive and the way Edin phrases
> everything and brings out the structure, it's really great.
>
>
I agree with you about this performance although my lute (and Dresden)
friends will now flame me for saying so. I don't have a lute players
perspective about this, maybe you don't either. But I do find it to
be a very expressive and clear performance. Nice candles too.
I met Sting a few years ago, my group played at a wedding for a friend
of his; we played Bach, Mozart, and Sting (Fields of Gold/Every Breath
You Take) among others. We spoke to him for a while, before and after
we played, and all of us felt he was a genuine person, not a phony
celebrity, and that he really loved music; not all professional
musicians let alone celebrity musicians do.
Andrew
Guitarwhisperer
> "Guitarwhisperer" <michaeltha...@starband.net> wrote in message
>
> news:b633eed9-4f0f-41e2...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 24, 5:21 pm, Robert Crim <fritzg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:28:52 GMT, "RT" <vze25...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > >http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y
>
> > >'nuf said.
> > >RT
>
> > In a short word........crap.
>
> > Robert
>
> **I agree total crap..... I'm going to write Sting and offer him my
> **services.
> **MT
>
> Don't write from the Himalayas...he'll only try to teach you Tantric sex.
I'll go for Trudy.....
MT
Guitarwhisperer
> "Guitarwhisperer" <michaeltha...@starband.net> wrote in message
Guitarwhisperer
>
> news:b633eed9-4f0f-41e2...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 24, 5:21 pm, Robert Crim <fritzg...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:28:52 GMT, "RT" <vze25...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > >http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWvfnGpF-Y
>
> > >'nuf said.
> > >RT
>
> > In a short word........crap.
>
> > Robert
>
> I agree total crap..... I'm going to write Sting and offer him my
> services.
> MT
>
> If he was playing on one of your Dresden guitar ... would you say the same
> thing?
Probably not! But really, the bass line which is so central to the
piece was so unclear, wouldn't you say? Once you hear O'Dette play
it, nothing else will do.
> You have the Police look ... you'll have no problem replacing Andy summers!
> have a good trip M. The Alchimiste! (Paulo Coelho)
And I used to play the drums in " ALOTA " bands too.
My wife and I have a long standing prenuptial agreement. The only
other man she can sleep with is Sting, and for me it's Lucinda
Williams..... there is something about those trashy southern women I
find irresistible!
Thanks for the good wishes for my trip..... be on the look out for a
postcard to the barnyard from somewhere over there, I'm bring my
laptop and video camera. Maybe a few Indian guitarists?
MT
>
> www.paulocoelho.com/engl/index.html
>
> http://bookreviews.nabou.com/reviews/thealchemist.html
>
> Alain
Andrew Schulman
wrote:
> I'll go for Trudy.....
>
>
Andresito
Robert Crim
<abac...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>I agree with you about this performance although my lute (and Dresden)
>friends will now flame me for saying so. I don't have a lute players
>perspective about this, maybe you don't either. But I do find it to
>be a very expressive and clear performance. Nice candles too.
No "flames" from me. Go to
http://play.rhapsody.com/nigelnorth/dowlandlutemusicvol1/7fantasiesno2forlornhopefancyp2
and listen to Nigel North play it. If you still like Karamazov's
better.......................
Robert
RT
RT
"Guitarwhisperer" <michae...@starband.net> wrote in message
news:b633eed9-4f0f-41e2...@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
RT
It is not an uncommon perspective either.
RT
"Andrew Schulman" <abac...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:7c88bc01-6a29-49b2...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
Andrew Schulman
> No "flames" from me. Go tohttp://play.rhapsody.com/nigelnorth/dowlandlutemusicvol1/7fantasiesno...
> and listen to Nigel North play it. If you still like Karamazov's
> better.......................
>
>
I think these are 2 excellent players with very different approaches.
I like some things better in each. I prefer Karamazov's steady pulse,
didn't like North's unsteady rhythm, especially in the beginning, but
in other places as well.
In some ways I liked North's sound a little more, more subtle and
graceful, but that's always a tough call with internet recordings,
tough if not actually impossible.
But generally I found Karamazov to pull me into the piece more. And I
found the sound he got in m.'s 17-22, the very nasal tone, to quite
interesting and enjoyable.
BTW, Aryeh mentions that he prefers the minor chord ending by
Karamazov; I don't, and the score does have the picardy third, i.e., a
major chord ending which is how North plays it.
Andrew
Robert Crim
Interesting take on it. I have always considered the trick to playing
Dowland's fantasies is to bring out the melody lines without letting
the chord structure cloud them up. North does that in this one by
rolling those chords to pull out the note. That sometimes causes the
pulse become unsteady.
Karamazov plays this one as if it were a set of chords connected by
single lines (not very cleanly played, IMO). I can't find the melody
line at all. I had the same problem with the Sting stuff he did as
well.
Technically, I found Karamazov's sound to be raspy and thin where it
should have been rich and full. In some places the lute could barely
be heard.
Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. I won't be tossing
out my copies of North or O'Dette though.
I appreciate your taking the time to do an evaluation. It is helpful
to have another view.
Robert
PS: it is not considered kosher to mess with Dowland's notes. All of
his minor fantasies end on major chords.
Andrew Schulman
> Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. I won't be tossing
> out my copies of North or O'Dette though.
>
>
like it the best of the 3.
Andrew
Robert Crim
Why?
Robert
Alain Reiher
"Robert Crim" <frit...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:kprpq3lo14fhb7e91...@4ax.com...
Now, that is a good question.
Alain
Andrew Schulman
> >Just got O'Dette's "Dowland Vol. 3" and listened to his version. I
> >like it the best of the 3.
>
> >Andrew
>
> Why?
>
>
Just kidding. There are several reasons why I prefer O'Dette. The
first is - and this brings something in from another thread - I can
relax when I listen to him in a way I can't with the other two.
What do I mean by relax in this context? First and foremost, his
sense of rhythm. There is a driving sense to Karamazov's playing that
I don't feel suits the piece as well. It is after all music
expressing Forlorne Hope. But North goes too much the other way; I
get a little anxious listening to his version because there is no
steady pulse when needed, in the opening for instance where I feel
lost instead of feeling that I am in the beginning of a journey.
I think O'Dette gets this aspect just right. It is a Fancy, or
Fantasy if you will, not a dance, but from the start he is clear about
where he is and where he's going. So, someone is in the driver's seat
taking me on a trip in a way that enables me to relax and follow his
lead.
Then there is the question you brought up about the melody/harmony
aspect. O'Dette rolls the chords when appropriate in the right way,
the top note lands on the beat. So he brings out the melody but keeps
the rhythmic flow moving forward in a clear manner.
There is also a greater logic, or what I'd call musicality to the
phrasing in general, a clear "hierarchy of notes" with O'Dette. A
great aspect of interpretation is when there is an inevitability to
the phrase structure and for me he has that.
I do like his sound more, nicely rounded, but it is always hard to
make that judgement from mp3's and videos.
Finally, just a point that I don't recall whether anyone has mentioned
and it is nearly 2AM so I am NOT looking it up - Karamazov has
transposed the piece to Eb minor, the other two play it in Gm, the
original key (and as mentioned before, they end on the major chord as
written, Karamazov ends with an Eb minor, bad boy, but after all he's
Sting's player). Sounds good in Eb minor! Of course depending on how
big the lute was and how it was strung and probably several other
factors, Dowland may have played it lower than G minor too.
Anyway, just a few thoughts, and glad you asked as I listened to all 3
versions a bit more and I must say I respect all 3 of these musicians,
maybe I'll listen some more and change my mind all over again.
Andrew
Alain Reiher
Andrew
==============================================
Now, that's an excellent answer.
[;o)
Alain
Andrew Schulman
> Now, that's an excellent answer.
> [;o)
>
>
Andrew
Robert Crim
wrote:
>Now, that's an excellent answer.
Excellent indeed. I know I can count on Andrew for some keen insight.
I kind of like to hear a good non-lute player's opinions.
I still prefer Nigel's "tension" though.
Robert
Andrew Schulman
> I still prefer Nigel's "tension" though.
>
>
guys, they know what they are doing. I would assume North's response
to the fact it's a Fantasy was to keep the rhythm free, and no one
knows whether Dowland heard it that way or not.
Andrew
Alain Reiher
I have not heard the Gelni and the Dette'O version ... but I am sure that if
I were to have the opportunity (and it might come one day, but to late to
continue threading in this post) I am sure that I would change my opinion.
Especially after hearing Vozamraka' version of Bach's flute sonata on the
arch top electric ... not very impressive
Alain
Robert Crim
I think you nailed it without knowing it. Of the three, Nigel would
be considered the most elegant. O'Dette is the most basic and Edin K.
is just.....weird. All IMHO, of course.
I enjoy Nigel's version because I don't always know what is coming
next and when. O'Dette's is too predictable 'cause I know what is
next before we get there. Edin K.? I have no idea where he is going
or why.
Robert
Andrew Schulman
> I think you nailed it without knowing it. Of the three, Nigel would
> be considered the most elegant. O'Dette is the most basic and Edin K.
> is just.....weird. All IMHO, of course.
>
>
called "willful" as opposed to "natural".
O'Dette is a "natural" player. Karamazov and North are "willful"
although very different types.
In their heyday Segovia was considered "willful", the pianist Arthur
Rubenstein was considered "natural".
So, good choices for people to listen to to get a sense of very
different styles.
Andrew
Robert Crim
<abac...@panix.com> wrote:
>The 3 players can be listened to as examples of what is sometimes
>called "willful" as opposed to "natural".
>
>O'Dette is a "natural" player. Karamazov and North are "willful"
>although very different types.
I'm assuming the terms "willful" and "natural" have to do with how the
player approaches the music. A willful player would try to make the
music say what he/she wants it to say where a natural player would
just let the music say what it will without a lot of extra forcing.
Am I right?
If so, I must confess to also being a willful player, and I know Nigel
is also. I have often tried, sometimes well, sometime not, to push
the music to sound the way "I" wanted it to sound. Weiss is a
particular example. If you just let that music go without some
pushing, it can get pretty dull, IMO........a lot like bad Bach.
Thanks for a nice response.
Robert
PS: which are you?
Andrew Schulman
> I'm assuming the terms "willful" and "natural" have to do with how the
> player approaches the music. A willful player would try to make the
> music say what he/she wants it to say where a natural player would
> just let the music say what it will without a lot of extra forcing.
>
> Am I right?
>
>
doesn't want any "forcing". Doesn't mean a lot of dynamics and
details aren't there, just means that the inherent aspects are brought
out, whereas the willful player superimposes.
>
>
> If so, I must confess to also being a willful player, and I know Nigel
> is also. I have often tried, sometimes well, sometime not, to push
> the music to sound the way "I" wanted it to sound.
>
>
>
>
> Weiss is a particular example. If you just let that music go without some
> pushing, it can get pretty dull, IMO........a lot like bad Bach.
>
>
worthy of a RMCG thread that could go into the hundreds. But I'd say
neither willful or natural will be dull if the music is very good and
the player has the chops as well as a deep understanding of what is
going on in the piece.
>
> Thanks for a nice response.
>
>
>
>
> PS: which are you?
>
>
Naturally willful, but occasionally willfully natural.
I think of myself fitting into the "natural" category, but have been
told sometimes I'm "willful". Like I said, tricky subject and of
course totally subjective. Again, the classic examples as described
to me by my old professors back in college was that Segovia was
"willful", Rubinstein was "natural".
Point being made was that personal temperament yielded different
styles but both could be great.
Andrew
Magicon Inc.
Andrew Schulman at abac...@panix.com wrote on 2/10/08 7:23 PM:
>> A willful player would try to make the
>> music say what he/she wants it to say where a natural player would
>> just let the music say what it will without a lot of extra forcing.
>>
>> Am I right?
> Yes, that is how the terms are used;
So the ultimate willful player would be Segovia, then?
Paul Magnussen
Andrew Schulman
> So the ultimate willful player would be Segovia, then?
>
>
"willful", the pianist Arthur
Rubenstein was considered "natural"."
What I wrote doesn't make any statement about "ultimate". Do you
think Segovia was the ultimate "willful" player?
Andrew