Thanks &
Regards,
Armand
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
>Hi All,
>Was just curious to know what excellent pro guitarists like williams , legoya
>, fernandez would be approximately netting a year with royalities on CD's ,
>sign up contracts , concerts etc etc.
>Would anyone have an educated guess on how the earings of a classical
>guitarist compare to a pop artists earnings ?
>
>Thanks &
Vastly different amounts.
Kent
>...A violinist such as itzak Perlman gets paid $50.000 to
>perform a concerto and the members of the orchestra can barely
>feed their families. This is an outrage....
etc.
Pish tosh. He accepts what people are willing to pay him, same as
anyone else.
--
John Philip Dimick
j...@guitarist.com
www.guitarist.com
This is simply not true.
Orchestra members' pay is not determined by performance fees of guest
artists.
The largest source of revenue for symphonies/performing arts centers is
not from ticket sales -- it is through grants and awards from
foundations and underwriting/advertising dollars from businesses and
from charitable contributions from wealthy individuals seeking a tax
write-off.
On the contrary, pro non-profit fundraisers (a.k.a. "Development
Directors") realize that "stars" bring in much more underwriting dollars
than no-name performers do. Business underwriters like to have their
names associated with high-profile concert artists. Successful people
and businesses want their names to be associated with what they consider
to be "the best". "The best" is debatable, but you get the idea.
Oftentimes, "the best" simply means "the best-known".
If an orchestra doesn't pay its musicians, it just means that the city
is not that serious about the quality of its symphony orchestra. This is
a shame, but it has nothing to do with what guest performers are paid.
The best orchestras are the ones where the musicians salaries are the
highest. Competition for higher wages draws the best players.
BTW, Segovia (d. 1987) was getting $35,000 per concert in the last years
of his life. He had as many concerts as he wanted.
The flutist with the touring orchestra for the musical "CATS" was making
$100,000 per year.
Cheer up! This a good time to be a classical guitarist. Personally
speaking, my teaching schedule is completely full, and lately I've been
able to refer extra gigs that I can't play (due to scheduling conflicts)
to other guitarists.
Everybody should read "The Performing Artist's Handbook" by Janice
Papalous (sp?).
Tony Morris
"Classical Guitar Alive!" radio program
coming soon: "Viva la Guitarra!", a Spanish-language program for Mexico,
Latin America, and South America
John Dimick wrote:
> Pish tosh. He accepts what people are willing to pay him, same as
> anyone else.
Are you saying that no one ever charges an unfair price for anything?
I've gone to a lot of "virtuoso" guitar and piano concerts, and I wouldn't
pay a plug nickel to go to any of them again. The idea that these people
earn mid-5 figure fees for these dull performances is unbelievable.
Artists DEMAND fees, and if some agrees to pay it, then it appears as
though they deserve it.
Saying "he accepts what people are willing to pay" makes it sound like
people come out and offer Perlman $50,000. I seriously doubt people are
overjoyed at paying the $50,000. It is economic extortion, pure and
simple- "pay my exhorbitant fee or take a hike".
What, exactly, determines if $50,000 per concert is a fair price? Why not
$200,000? Why not $2?
Clearly, the issue of musicians' compensation at the virtusoso level is
very, very arbitrary, and I agree with Dewey that it is unfair for the
orchestra to get shorted so that money is available to pay for big name
artists. These artists make more in one night than the other orchestra
members do in nearly a year. Saying that this injustice is due to the
willingness of people to pay exhorbitant fees for soloists is a logical
distortion.
Given that capitalism is a greed-based economic system (take as much as you
can get while you can get it without regard to the absolute value of the
product), I'm not surprised that the orchestra starves while the soloist
eats caviar.
Without the orchestra, what would Perlmann do? Play his part by himself?
The concert take should be split equally amongst all, except that the
soloist should get a reasonable bonus to reward his/her virtuosity.
But as long as greed lives in the human heart, concert soloists will demand
more than their fair share of concert-goers expenditures, and sadly,
receive it.
As a small symphony administrative type, I should like to point out that, if we
were to take on a Perlman or Parkening (whom I have
investigated having) or the like thereof, we would have to negotiate a fee in
balance with our financial ability to raise corporate underwriting to cover
those fees. Given the fact that many times there is an 18 month advance
warning, there is enough time to find the money in most cases. Additionally,
admissions would have to be raised for that particular concert to help offset
costs, but still trying to avoid pricing the concert out of the marketplace
locally. Budget limitations prevent me from hiring part-time help. ( I myself,
am part-time.) There are no benefits to cut back, nor will we cut back on our
season.
Ours is an all volunteer orchestra. Having a guest artist of the highest
calibre is an honor for the musicians and the Symphony. However, locally,
Country stars and World Wrestling Federation matches seem to do rather well.
Talk about supply and demand :)
John Davis
snipereeno
>Given that capitalism is a greed-based economic system (take as much as you
>can get while you can get it without regard to the absolute value of the
>product), I'm not surprised that the orchestra starves while the soloist
>eats caviar.
>
>Without the orchestra, what would Perlmann do? Play his part by himself?
>The concert take should be split equally amongst all, except that the
>soloist should get a reasonable bonus to reward his/her virtuosity.
>
>But as long as greed lives in the human heart, concert soloists will demand
>more than their fair share of concert-goers expenditures, and sadly,
>receive it.
>
Well, I guess it's no surprise that Marxism lives on the net. A
fantasy philosophy seems appropriate for a fantasy world.
Orchestral musicians in major orchestras are paid handsomely. We
guitarists should be so lucky as to be able to get an orchestral gig.
I admit it. Greed lives in my heart too. I'd love to earn gigantic
fees for performing.
Oh well. Enough off topic posts here. Does anybody really know what
big name classical guitarists earn for a concert?
Tim Berens
What's the difference between a musician and a 16 inch pizza?
A pizza can feed a family of four.
Charlie
Kent
"Are you saying that no one ever charges an unfair price for anything?"
But in a moment of self-enlightenment (I am honored to have witnessed it)
solves his dillema by saying, in an apparent reluctant voice:
"Clearly, the issue of musicians' compensation at the virtusoso level is
very, very arbitrary..."
The issue of pricing any good or service is an important one - especially for
"artists" who often confuse their own self-value and aesthetic judgement with
the value others may place on it. The price of a good or service reflects the
equilibrium between supply and demand in the marketplace. There is no issue of
fairness, here, except in the mind of someone who is envious of the demand for
others' services. Such a dialogue over those concerns belong on another
newsgroup, say, rec.economics.marxism or rec.psychology.adolescence.
I think Mr. Dimick hits the nail on the head when he says:
"He accepts what people are willing to pay him, same as
anyone else." Since, if venue A didn't want to pay Mr. Williams his 30K, venue
B would. And likewise, when he cannot generate those fees his price will
decrease. If, indeed, Williams generates those fees, I am pleased that the
marketplace values classical guitar so much.
As to the purpose of this string - how much to pro guitarists make?
There are a number of members of this newsgroup (GFA producers, Guitar society
program directors) who have hired top ranked performers. Is this not a
legitimate question? Rather than rely on rumor and speculation, how about some
of you (you know who you are)joining in with some real figures?
K. Taylor
so here is John Williams...aged 5,13, or whenever he started
playing....according to you:
"damn i'd like to make a whole bloody lot of money and exploit the poor.
hey....here's a classical guitar. the perfect tool to crush and stomp the
economy. i will build a financial empire to satisfy my own eeeevil greed,
built on nylon and Bach. I shall feed on the blood of the helpless orchestral
musicians. Bwah ha ha! "
if Ayn Rand were here, she'd spank your bottom.
:-P
brent douglas-vox,guitars,synths RAPTURE
the Rapture website:
http://members.aol.com/Loki265L/index.html
my personal page(elitism at its most grotesque):
http://members.aol.com/Loki265n/wordsindex.htm
I prefer the early John Williams where at least you have a sense that he was
searching artistically, even if he mostly failed. The late john Williams is
clearly concerned with pleasing as many people as possible ,at which point he
becomes impersonal as an artist. I am grateful for his Takemitsu and Brouwer
CD.s Although Takemitsu and Brouwer seem to be the patron composers of
impersonal guitarists that want to seem hip. I mean Takemitsu's music really is
self consciously PRETTY and Brouwer does have that local color that disguises
a barely competent composer. Still they are OK. Have you heard the John
Williams at the Movies CD? Listen to that and tell you me if you have any
respect left for the guy.
Dewey Gland
And I elect myself to be the sole decider of what a "reasonable" bonus is.
What's that I hear? Why should I make the decision? Because I'm a fair
minded person. In fact, I'm so fair I should make the decision for what
every person should receive for every job, in every career field,
throughout the world. What? You mean you don't like that idea? What
other option is there. I sure wouldn't trust anyone else to make those
decisions. I guess the only other option is to let the market decide what
kind of "bonus" virtuoso performers deserve. Hey, what do you know...
THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.
We don't have to change a thing. Phew, I was worried there for a second.
:-)
NN
I guess there are no concert players out there. There must be some who make
their living by playing alone. I'd be interested in hearing from them. How
do you do it, how much do you make, etc.
Kent
I doubt if anyone would post how much they make on a newsgroup. I posted
Segovia's concert fee($35,000) from his later years, but that's only
because he's dead. I do happen to know what several top players and
ensembles are getting per concert, but I don't think it would be too
cool to post it publicly.
Perhaps we can continue this thread without delving into the extremely
personal & private information of others.
However, I will divulge some of my own personal data here:
Today i played a pre- Mother's Day gig outdoors, shaded under a gazebo
from the blazing Texas sun at a gardening center. Today's high
temperature here in Austin was approaching 100 degrees Fahrenheit. (my
apologies for being too lazy to convert it to Celsius).I played from
10:00am until 4:00pm. I played 45 minute sets, followed by 15 minute
breaks. They paid me $500 cash, and I do the same thing tomorrow. It was
ok, even though it was hot and windy (thank God for clothespins!).
Cheers,
Tony Morris, a.k.a "the only nationally-syndicated radio host who drives
an '84 Toyota Tercel"
http://www.guitaralive.com
**************************************************************************************
Tony Morris, producer & host
CLASSICAL GUITAR ALIVE!
KMFA-FM/Capital Broadcasting Assoc.*
3001 North Lamar Blvd., Suite 100
Austin, TX 78705
USA
(512) 476-5632 phone
(512) 474-7463 fax
* A tax-exempt, non-profit 501 (c) (3) organization
**************************************************************************************
>I played 45 minute sets, followed by 15 minute
>breaks. They paid me $500 cash, and I do the same thing tomorrow.
The local coffee shop gives me free coffee if I bring my axe.
Sometimes people buy me donuts.
>Tony Morris, producer & host
>CLASSICAL GUITAR ALIVE!
>KMFA-FM/Capital Broadcasting Assoc.*
>3001 North Lamar Blvd., Suite 100
>Austin, TX 78705
>USA
Austin, Texas, KMFA, 89.5 FM, Saturdays, 7:00 PM
Not available in San Antonio? or at the same time?
Roy
>The local coffee shop gives me free coffee if I bring my axe.
>Sometimes people buy me donuts.
They gave me donuts. You must be good.
Kent
>(Roy) writes:
>>The local coffee shop gives me free coffee if I bring my axe.
>>Sometimes people buy me donuts.
>They gave me donuts. You must be good.
Naw. Maybe if I practice more, I'll get croisant.
ashashashash
:::`. \::::
::::_`. \:::
::::`. _\::
::::::`.\::: roy
el:rayo:`\:: mccan...@uthscsa.dcci.com
Not yet!
But if you'd like to hear the show there, call or WRITE the program
director (letters are much more effective), and tell her that you'd like
for them to carry this free one-hour weekly radio program:
Penny Dennis, Program Director
Texas Public Radio KPAC
8401 Datapoint Drive, Suite 800
San Antonio, TX 78229
(210) 614-8977
Thanks,
Well, I could post the fee of a quartet and a duo, but still, that's
hardly anonymous. Sorry.
> > Today i played a pre- Mother's Day gig outdoors, shaded under a gazebo
> > from the blazing Texas sun at a gardening center. Today's high
> > temperature here in Austin was approaching 100 degrees Fahrenheit. (my
> > apologies for being too lazy to convert it to Celsius).I played from
> > 10:00am until 4:00pm. I played 45 minute sets, followed by 15 minute
> > breaks. They paid me $500 cash, and I do the same thing tomorrow. It was
> > ok, even though it was hot and windy (thank God for clothespins!).
>
> Not bad for a day's work!
>
> Could you tell us how long you've been doing this? I mean,
> you probably didn't start playing professionally just last
> week, so how long did it take you to work up to a fee like
> this? Also, what sort of repertoire did you perform? I have
> an idea, but some of the other posters in here might be interested
> in some of this, too.
Actually, $500 for a 6-hour gig is not a very good fee. True, I did have
a $1000 weekend, but for 12 hours playing, that is not good.
BTW, today I played the second time there at the garden center, and
while I was waiting in the office to get paid, i saw their daily
revenues posted on the wall. They earn about a half a million dollars a
month at that place! So, they could easily afford to pay a guitarist
$500 per day for a special event weekend.
My gig repertoire consists of some of my concert repertoire, plus
easy-to-read pieces (I call them "time-suckers"):
Bach: 6th Cello Suite
Bach: 1st Cello Suite: Gigue
BAch: Jesu, Joy...
Vivaldi: Concerto in D
M. Albeniz: Sonata in D
Sanz: Canarios
Milan: Pavan 1
Narvaez: Guardame las Vacas
Anon:Rowallen lute book: Scottish lute music
Dowland: Lady hunsdon's
Dowland: Sir John Smith's
Johnson: Almain
Anon; Packington's Pound
Sor: op.9
Sor: prelude in bm, various easy pieces
Coste: Andante et Polonaise
Carulli, Aguado: loads of easy arpeggio pieces
Carcassi: etudes 3,7, and 19
York: Sunburst (or today, "Sunburn")
Domeniconi: Variationen uber ein Anatolishes Volkslied
Rodrigo: En los Trigales
2 of my own pieces: Prelude, Corrido for Benjamin Flores Gonzales
Kleynjans: 2 Barcarolles
Llobet; El noi de la Mare
Myers: Cavatina
Brouwer: etudes
Walton: Bagatelle #2
There is other stuff, but I'm too tired to type anymore.
Bye.
I'm going to go see a movie.
Tony Morris
"Classical Guitar Alive!" radio program
>Actually, $500 for a 6-hour gig is not a very good fee. True, I did have
>a $1000 weekend, but for 12 hours playing, that is not good.
That's true, it's not. But if you did this every weekend, you could make a
living. How many on the list do make a living from playing only gigs? I know
there is a t least one.
Kent
>> I guess there are no concert players out there. There must be
>> some who make their living by playing alone. I'd be interested
>> in hearing from them. How do you do it, how much do you
>> make, etc.
>> Kent
>I doubt if anyone would post how much they make on a newsgroup.
>I posted Segovia's concert fee($35,000) from his later years, but
>that's only because he's dead. I do happen to know what several
>top players and ensembles are getting per concert, but I don't
>think it would be too cool to post it publicly.
>Perhaps we can continue this thread without delving into the
>extremely personal & private information of others.
This is a very strange taboo in our culture, especially since
there's such a strong current of free-market ideology in America
(and in this thread, for that matter).
In free-market theory, information is essential to the proper
functioning of the market. Consumers (music audiences) and
producers (musicians) need to be educated or the market will
not sort things out properly. For example, if the potential
earnings for concert musicians remain mysterious, it can retard
the profession's development.
I can only imagine this paradox arises because people are
ashamed of the amount of money they're making, whether it's
too much or too little.
At least you, Tony, had the courage to post this interesting
bit for public edification. Bravo.
Cheers,
Jeff
I could make a living until I got tendinitis! 6-hours is a long time to
play, even with 15-minute breaks every 45 minutes. If I did that every
weekend, I'd be crippled in no time.
Once, when I was 16 years old, I got a crazy idea in my head that I
would try to play my guitar for 24 hours non-stop, allowing for bathroom
breaks and eating (not in that order). For some strange reason, I
thought that if I could do that, then it would mean that I was destined
to have a career as a guitarist (don't ask me how arrived at that
conclusion- I was 16!). I only managed to "play" for 16 and a half
hours, and I made myself sick. My hands were ok, but I felt nauseous.
Don't try this at home!
Tony Morris,
"Classical Guitar Alive!" Radio program
http://www.guitaralive.com
The pianist,Leopold Godowsky (1870-1938) was famous for practicing for 24 hrs.
straight!
Certainly you mean 'infamous'.
Charlie