What is "I am the Walrus" about?
TheWalrusWasDanny
See how they run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly.
I'm crying.
Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the van to come.
Corporation tee-shirt, stupid bloody Tuesday.
Man, you been a naughty boy, you let your face grow long.
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen.
I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob.
Mister City Policeman sitting
Pretty little policemen in a row.
See how they fly like Lucy in the Sky, see how they run.
I'm crying, I'm crying.
I'm crying, I'm crying.
Yellow matter custard, dripping from a dead dog's eye.
Crabalocker fishwife, pornographic priestess,
Boy, you been a naughty girl you let your knickers down.
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen.
I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob.
Sitting in an English garden waiting for the sun.
If the sun don't come, you get a tan
From standing in the English rain.
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen.
I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob g'goo goo g'joob.
Expert textpert choking smokers,
Don't you thing the joker laughs at you?
See how they smile like pigs in a sty,
See how they snied.
I'm crying.
Semolina pilchard, climbing up the Eiffel Tower.
Elementary penguin singing Hari Krishna.
Man, you should have seen them kicking Edgar Allan Poe.
I am the eggman, they are the eggmen.
I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob g'goo goo g'joob.
Goo goo g'joob g'goo goo g'joob g'goo.>>>>>
I always thought he might be on about the police...with the siren
sound and all the references to pigs...Have read a lot about it..but
what does the world think??
Danny
BLACKPOOLJIMMY
wrote:
LSD induced babble about nothing....and I love it.
LookingGlass
wrote:
It's about four minutes and thirty-four seconds of audio genius.
Curtis Eagal
Lennon said he thought people would have fun trying to figure it out
for themselves, declining to explain it all; some of the word
association is obvious. He avowed the chorus was chanting "Got one,
Got one, Everybody's got one" into the fade, but admitted with the
multi-tracked sound layering it could sound like other things. The
"yellow matter custard" portion was a twist on a Liverpudlian
children's rhyme celebrating some revolting things. John said he
chose the wrong character between the Walrus and the Carpenter from
Lewis Carroll, since the Walrus seemed too much the capitalist in how
he dealt with the oysters, but thankfully didn't write a song called
"I Am The Carpenter." There are rumors the 'eggman' source was Eric
Burdon of The Animals, whose initials provoked the nickname, "Eggs for
Breakfast," though the connotations go beyond that inside joke. I
surmised the part that seems like total gibberish ("goo goo g'joob")
is probably the key to your answer, but won't explain that here. So
it was a lot of different things, topped off by a broadcast of
Oswald's death scene from Shakespeare's "King Lear" (Act IV, Scene VI)
being bled live into a mono mix in the long fade, which was unplanned
but was retained for all final mixes.
Stephen X. Carter
<eagali...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>"I Am The Carpenter." There are rumors the 'eggman' source was Eric
>Burdon of The Animals, whose initials provoked the nickname, "Eggs for
>Breakfast," though the connotations go beyond that inside joke.
No rumour, but true and well documented.
Eric admits that he told John about a particular sexual exploit he had
of eating eggs off a groupie's body. It's in Eric's autobiography
"Don't let me be misunderstood".
--
steve.hat.stephencarter.not.com.but.net
Nothing is Beatle Proof!!
Mr Kite posters and more at http://www.zazzle.com/mr_kite*
Mr Kite posters and more at http://www.zazzle.co.uk/mr_kite*
ermitano
wrote:
it's about on looking for what it's about.
The Nice Mean Man
wrote:
It's about how the Fabs commanded every last person listening to smoke
pot. They say so. It's all there....
The Nice Mean Man
>
> - Show quoted text -
How would you know? You seem to be on a perpetual LSD high to me....
Lost touch with reality way back…
The Nice Mean Man
The Nice Mean Man
>
> - Show quoted text -
The fucker's saying he is "bandleader Lennon", or the king of the hill.
POGO PUNY
<da83b03d-68bc-4054...@b33g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
The Nice Mean Man <hithera...@aol.com> wrote:
> How would you know? You seem to be on a perpetual LSD high to me....
> Lost touch with reality way backŠ
....says the RETARD
POGO PUNY
<59d8a7f2-97ad-44b4...@g23g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
The Nice Mean Man <hithera...@aol.com> wrote:
> It's about how the Fabs commanded every last person listening to smoke
> pot. They say so. It's all there...
...says the RETARD...
Fattuchus
John's close friend Pete Shotton wrote at length about the creation of
this song. I am not sure now where I read it a. . . may have been
Shotton's Book "In My Life."
John had received a fan letter from Quarry Bank High School. The
letter advised that Quarry Bank now had a course where students
learned about and interpreted "the meaning" in Lennon/McCartney
songs.
John, being a cynic, thought the course was silly . . . and I guess
John harbored some resentment against his old school. So he
essentially told Pete, "They want to interpret my songs? I'll give
them a song to interpret!" and he proceeded to write "I am the
Walrus."
It's a nonsense song, designed as an exercise to drive the students
and teachers at Quarry Bank crazy.
topaz
I believe that wikipedia.org may also have a detailed explanation of
this song
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_The_Walrus
Curtis Eagal
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think that page contains an error:
Shotton was also responsible for suggesting to Lennon to change the
lyric "waiting for the man to come" to "waiting for the van to come".
Biographer Hunter Davies wrote (in first person):
He'd written down another few words that day, just daft words, to put
to another bit of rhythm. "Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the
man to come." I thought he said "van to come," which he hadn't, but
he liked it better and said he'd use it instead.
So Davies, not Shotton; and not suggested, but mistaken by Davies and
changed by Lennon since the misheard lyric was preferred.
Jones
is the PT Barnum Walrus doing the selling. Later on, he decided he was
the product being sold.
Timothy J
John Doherty
might seem to be.
It's a sort of deeply psychedelic commentary, a stream of
consciousness tour through Lennon's subconscious mind.
He's on record that he was terrifically high on acid when the lyric
first came to him. It was all he could to crawl to the type writer and
peck out:
"I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together."
Lennon in his psychedelic mode is channeling the Thomas Gospel, where
Christ tells us the church organization is superfluous, and that it
gets between Man & God. In the Thomas account of the Last Supper,
Jesus tells his disciples "He who drinks of this cup and eats of this
bread, I am he and he is me".
Joseph Campbell noted this is the "essence of Buddhism" and until very
recently, Catholicism and Christianity took a view that any
intersection of God & Man was heresy.
This is a core principle of Christianity used for two millenia to
condemn our human sexuality on the basis of it being of our animal
nature, therefore sinful. If Man is totally separate from God, then
Godly things are divine, and Man things are by contrast wicked and
sinful, whether it's naked pagan natives or "doin' the nasty".
from the wiki page:
"The first line was written on one acid trip one weekend. The second
line was written on the next acid trip the next weekend, and it was
filled in after I met Yoko... I'd seen Allen Ginsberg and some other
people who liked Dylan and Jesus going on about Hare Krishna. It was
Ginsburg, in particular, I was referring to. The words "Element'ry
penguin" meant that it's naïve to just go around chanting Hare Krishna
or putting all your faith in one idol. In those days I was writing
obscurely, a la Dylan."
Some of it is random word play (semolina pilchard climbing up the
Eiffel tower for instance), and the primary school gross out mentioned
above folded in some "Rosebud" style authenticity for him. The adults
wagging their fingers keep throwing us back into the schoolyard "you
been a naughty boy or girl".
The Nice Mean Man
> In article
> <da83b03d-68bc-4054-b6ab-64b7edba2...@b33g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
> The Nice Mean Man <hitherandyon...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > How would you know? You seem to be on a perpetual LSD high to me....
> > Lost touch with reality way backŠ
>
> ....says the RETARD
Don't rile me.
Curtis Eagal
The lyrics in this tune are particularly problematic since there is
confusion whether one should analyze them based on their derivative
meanings, or follow the hints John gave as guidelines expressing his
personal thoughts regarding them. Should the pilchard be interpreted
as a type of sardine, or a reference to Sgt Pilcher, who was on a
crusade against the counterculture's rock star heroes? Even though
the "element'ry penguin" is supposed to represent Allen Ginsberg, the
phrase makes me think of a parochial school's habited nun, whose
singing Hare Krishna would be more ironic than the beat poet doing the
same - "The words 'Element'ry penguin' meant that it's naïve to just
go around chanting Hare Krishna, or putting all your faith in one
idol": "elementary" can mean simple, but it's unclear how the penguin
part relates to Ginsberg. Lennon was super-literate enough to intend
one thing idiosyncratically while also internally acknowledging a
parallel meaning, as can be seen in his Joycean poetry. One might get
a "tanning" from the rain in the middle section, but in the sense of
it beating down, not darkening the skin, so that's an obvious pun.
The similarity of the opening lines to "Marching to Pretoria" from the
Boer War era could not be random coincidence. The line about
policemen sitting in a row reminds me of the inner photo from the
Pepper gatefold sleeve, where Paul's OPD patch on his uniform was
explained as being from the Ottowa Police Department: in the film
there are four policemen (fitting the siren motif) standing atop the
structure in the airfield that looks like a concrete chair for a
giant. George Harrison's favorite line was about letting the knickers
down - that and the "pornographic priestess" phrase obviously
contributed to the BBC radio ban; notice how "man" and "boy" are used
ambiguously as interjections or descriptions. It is difficult to
believe they were unaware the play being mixed in live was "King
Lear," since some features of that play correspond closely with
concepts in the songs and film - even the title "I Am The Walrus"
could contain a subtle, complex joke juxtaposed with certain dialogue
from the play. McCartney's direction and editing of the Walrus
sequence especially was nothing short of cinematic genius, despite the
poor initial reviews from the first black-and-white television
broadcast: watch for foreshadowing of the later scene with the
stripper Jan Carson on the word "kicking" before Poe's name. This was
one of the most terrifying tracks to hear backwards, because of what
the lengthy coda becomes when reversed - in the film a bizarre conga
line is formed with an inset circular image of fire alternating with
people eating, presumably from the omitted luncheon scene. The
Beatles tried to make their songs into entities that could not be
easily fathomed, so there are appear to be layers of meaning rather
than a single, simple explanation, making them function as art instead
of merely straightforward communcation, yet there is a basic major
subtext running throughout the entire song catalog.
Stephen X. Carter
NOT a lame spelling flame, but to help others check details... it's Sgt
PILGER.
And, to Curtis, text with paragraphs is vastly easier to read and
understand than text without. :-)
Curtis Eagal
> Mr Kite posters and more athttp://www.zazzle.co.uk/mr_kite*- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Got the spelling from Peter Brown's book, first name Norman, haven't
seen Pilger anywhere before. Sorry about the formatting.
Stephen X. Carter
<eagali...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Apr 23, 10:25 pm, Stephen X. Carter <steve@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:
>> NOT a lame spelling flame, but to help others check details... it's Sgt
>> PILGER.
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>Got the spelling from Peter Brown's book, first name Norman, haven't
>seen Pilger anywhere before. Sorry about the formatting.
Whoops... sorry... my mistake. PILCHER is correct. I was thinking of
another person... John Pilger.
--
steve.hat.stephencarter.not.com.but.net
Nothing is Beatle Proof!!
Mr Kite posters and more at http://www.zazzle.com/mr_kite*
TheWalrusWasDanny
> The lyrics in this tune are particularly problematic since there is
> confusion whether one should analyze them based on their derivative
> meanings, or follow the hints John gave as guidelines expressing his
> personal thoughts regarding them. Should the pilchard be interpreted
> as a type of sardine, or a reference to Sgt Pilcher,
There is a police theme running through the song...
"Mister City Policeman"
" Pigs from a Gun"
"Pigs in a sty"
Policemen on the big thingies in the film
"Kicking Edgar Ellen Poe" (Police brutality comment?)
"Let your face grow long" (comment on policemen not smiling or
bringing everybody down)
Dunno but it all seems to have a police type comment in it..well not
all..but some.
Danny
topaz
wrote:
> "Let your face grow long" (comment on policemen not smiling or
> bringing everybody down)
>
> Danny
I don't think "oh you've been a naughty boy you let your face grow
long" has anything to do with the police, IMO. I think it goes along
with "oh you've been a naughty girl you let your knickers down." I
think both lines are a sexual reference, one male and one female and
society views that sex is naughty.
John Doherty
>
> The lyrics in this tune are particularly problematic since there is
> confusion whether one should analyze them based on their derivative
> meanings, or follow the hints John gave as guidelines expressing his
> personal thoughts regarding them. Should the pilchard be interpreted
> as a type of sardine, or a reference to Sgt Pilcher, who was on a
> crusade against the counterculture's rock star heroes?
First of all, please take a breath...-)
Seriously, this post is hard to wade into, read and respond to because
it's just one long paragraph.
But as to substance, I knew of Sgt. Pilcher, but never connected him
to the pilchard (which is a tuna like canned fish sold in UK not as
common in US), but I think you are correct, digging deeper. I wasn't
as aware of him until much later, when he busts John & Yoko & George
in 1968. But he was a player earlier, and I think you're right that
john is tweaking him here.
> ..Even though
> the "element'ry penguin" is supposed to represent Allen Ginsberg, the
> phrase makes me think of a parochial school's habited nun, whose
> singing Hare Krishna would be more ironic than the beat poet doing the
> same - "The words 'Element'ry penguin' meant that it's naïve to just
> go around chanting Hare Krishna, or putting all your faith in one
> idol": "elementary" can mean simple, but it's unclear how the penguin
> part relates to Ginsberg.
Sure a "penguin" was one of the words we used for the sisters who
taught us in primary school. JL's likely linking Ginsburg's embrace of
Krishna to a much less hip vision of a nun at the rosary. He's also
tweaking George, who would have the last word with "All Those Years
Ago" when he included the line that "(God) is the only reason we
exist" in his tribute to the guy who famously stated he did not
believe in Him in "God". heh.
> Lennon was super-literate enough to intend
> one thing idiosyncratically while also internally acknowledging a
> parallel meaning, as can be seen in his Joycean poetry. One might get
> a "tanning" from the rain in the middle section, but in the sense of
> it beating down, not darkening the skin, so that's an obvious pun.
> The similarity of the opening lines to "Marching to Pretoria" from the
> Boer War era could not be random coincidence. The line about
> policemen sitting in a row reminds me of the inner photo from the
> Pepper gatefold sleeve, where Paul's OPD patch on his uniform was
> explained as being from the Ottowa Police Department: in the film
> there are four policemen (fitting the siren motif) standing atop the
> structure in the airfield that looks like a concrete chair for a
> giant. George Harrison's favorite line was about letting the knickers
> down - that and the "pornographic priestess" phrase obviously
> contributed to the BBC radio ban; notice how "man" and "boy" are used
> ambiguously as interjections or descriptions. It is difficult to
> believe they were unaware the play being mixed in live was "King
> Lear," since some features of that play correspond closely with
> concepts in the songs and film -
Supposedly, Lennon stumbled onto it and then dug the synchronicity.
> even the title "I Am The Walrus"
> could contain a subtle, complex joke juxtaposed with certain dialogue
> from the play.
Do go on; I'm intrigued...
> McCartney's direction and editing of the Walrus
> sequence especially was nothing short of cinematic genius, despite the
> poor initial reviews from the first black-and-white television
> broadcast: watch for foreshadowing of the later scene with the
> stripper Jan Carson on the word "kicking" before Poe's name. This was
> one of the most terrifying tracks to hear backwards, because of what
> the lengthy coda becomes when reversed - in the film a bizarre conga
> line is formed with an inset circular image of fire alternating with
> people eating, presumably from the omitted luncheon scene. The
> Beatles tried to make their songs into entities that could not be
> easily fathomed, so there are appear to be layers of meaning rather
> than a single, simple explanation, making them function as art instead
> of merely straightforward communcation, yet there is a basic major
> subtext running throughout the entire song catalog.
What's the major subtext, then? Not sure I agree about Paul's
cinematic genius...
Curtis Eagal
I would seriously caution against reading too much into the lyrics of
his song "God": Lennon also said he was "a most religious fellow,"
that he was trying to comprehend Christ's parables, and wanted Jesus
to prevail. "God" was more about returning to himself after the
'Beatle John' experience than repudiating religion.
John said The Beatles were like a beautiful temple that had to be
destroyed to preserve what it represented. Paul wanted to 'start
over' after the "Abbey Road" phase, but John thought that was
ridiculous. Lennon told interviewers they were not actually "show
business" per-se, but were doing something that would be completed,
and even correctly estimated in 1964 that it would take another five
years.
Harrison became more heavy-handed with his religiosity, Lennon
secularized his beliefs for broader context. John admitted "Girl" was
about how the Christian message got twisted by the followers, though
overtly it's just about a relationship with some issues. Interpreting
"The Word" without reference to Christian concepts would be
inadequate. Harrison's tribute does not posthumously force religious
belief on an atheist Lennon, but reveals their shared faith: Harrison
admired John for being strong enough to make that controversial
statement, which was taken the wrong way.
"You were the one who had made it so clear"
"You were the way to the truth when you said 'All You Need Is Love'"
"They've forgotten all about God,
He's the only reason we exist -
Yet you were the one that they said was so weird"
"You said it all, though not many had ears"
"You were the one that had mentioned it all"
>> Lennon was super-literate enough to intend
>> one thing idiosyncratically while also internally acknowledging a
>> parallel meaning, as can be seen in his Joycean poetry. One might get
>> a "tanning" from the rain in the middle section, but in the sense of
>> it beating down, not darkening the skin, so that's an obvious pun.
>> The similarity of the opening lines to "Marching to Pretoria" from the
>> Boer War era could not be random coincidence. The line about
>> policemen sitting in a row reminds me of the inner photo from the
>> Pepper gatefold sleeve, where Paul's OPD patch on his uniform was
>> explained as being from the Ottowa Police Department: in the film
>> there are four policemen (fitting the siren motif) standing atop the
>> structure in the airfield that looks like a concrete chair for a
>> giant. George Harrison's favorite line was about letting the knickers
>> down - that and the "pornographic priestess" phrase obviously
>> contributed to the BBC radio ban; notice how "man" and "boy" are used
>> ambiguously as interjections or descriptions. It is difficult to
>> believe they were unaware the play being mixed in live was "King
>> Lear," since some features of that play correspond closely with
>> concepts in the songs and film -
> Supposedly, Lennon stumbled onto it and then dug the synchronicity.
It follows a pattern of Shakespearean parallels throughout - the White
Album is their "Macbeth," the Scottish play where number nine takes on
magical significance.
>> even the title "I Am The Walrus"
>> could contain a subtle, complex joke juxtaposed with certain dialogue
>> from the play.
> Do go on; I'm intrigued...
It will be published later, but pivots on an anagram of the
acrostic.
I've already put out a digital text about the first stage with the
debut album, which is a good place to start. The next portion should
be available in July, but I've got a surprise planned for the nearer
future.
>> McCartney's direction and editing of the Walrus
>> sequence especially was nothing short of cinematic genius, despite the
>> poor initial reviews from the first black-and-white television
>> broadcast: watch for foreshadowing of the later scene with the
>> stripper Jan Carson on the word "kicking" before Poe's name. This was
>> one of the most terrifying tracks to hear backwards, because of what
>> the lengthy coda becomes when reversed - in the film a bizarre conga
>> line is formed with an inset circular image of fire alternating with
>> people eating, presumably from the omitted luncheon scene. The
>> Beatles tried to make their songs into entities that could not be
>> easily fathomed, so there are what appear to be layers of meaning rather
>> than a single, simple explanation, making them function as art instead
>> of merely straightforward communication, yet there is a basic major
>> subtext running throughout the entire song catalog.
> What's the major subtext, then? Not sure I agree about Paul's
> cinematic genius...
I was skirting around it when discussing "All Those Years Ago"; just
click the link in my profile. You can read the introduction for free
with the obvious answer to your question, anyone with a pc can
download the reader if you don't have a kindle device.
Found out in my research I was born during the week the other three
met Ringo in Hamburg [exactly 111 years after the death of Poe]; their
first appearance on the Ed Sullivan show was my first clear memory, so
my original perception of the phenomenon was as a child. I have great
respect for what The Beatles accomplished, and base my theories on
statements they have made themselves, as well as my personal
observations that plausibly coincide. The details have already been
meticulously worked out for the entire series. Harrison said they had
trapped themselves in a box, but that had more to do with this subtext
than the creativity they applied to the task.
rags
85b8-fb4...@n33g2000pri.googlegroups.com:
> I was skirting around it when discussing "All Those Years Ago"; just
> click the link in my profile.
For those of us reading this with a news reader, could you clarify what you
mean by "the link in my profile" please. And might you consider posting
your articles in rmbm ... (they won't be drowned in slime that way!).
--
-= rags =-
<www.math.mcgill.ca/rags>
rags _at_ math _dot_ mcgill _dot_ ca
Curtis Eagal
wrote:
> Curtis Eagal <eagalitar...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:d0172e5d-ead7-485a-
> 85b8-fb4d78ec6...@n33g2000pri.googlegroups.com:
>
> > I was skirting around it when discussing "All Those Years Ago"; just
> > click the link in my profile.
>
> For those of us reading this with a news reader, could you clarify what you
> mean by "the link in my profile" please. And might you consider posting
> your articles in rmbm ... (they won't be drowned in slime that way!).
>
> --
> -= rags =-
> <www.math.mcgill.ca/rags>
> rags _at_ math _dot_ mcgill _dot_ ca
I submitted a lengthy article to the moderated ng on 15 March which
was not posted; it included excerpts from the ebook. I'm not afraid
to engage the fans here, and I didn't appreciate being censored
there. A google search of my pen-name would bring it up easily, but
since you asked for the link - http://tinyurl.com/y53ks4q
TheWalrusWasDanny
> I would seriously caution against reading too much into the lyrics of
> his song "God": Lennon also said he was "a most religious fellow,"
JL was not a religeous fellow..on the contrary..he was as athiest as
me. Serve Yourself says it all.
> that he was trying to comprehend Christ's parables, and wanted Jesus
> to prevail. "God" was more about returning to himself after the
> 'Beatle John' experience than repudiating religion.
Bollocks.
Meanwhile I've thought of another police connection..the song was
based on a police siren....
There a cops theme in there somewhere...and what with "Piggies" and
"Blue Meanies" about to crop up..around the time in 67 was there
anybody getting busted...? Or was that 68?
Danny
Curtis Eagal
wrote:
> > I would seriously caution against reading too much into the lyrics of
> > his song "God": Lennon also said he was "a most religious fellow,"
>
> JL was not a religeous fellow..on the contrary..he was as athiest as
> me. Serve Yourself says it all.
"Serve Yourself" was an unreleased response to Bob Dylan's "Serve
Somebody," which came from too orthodox a religious perspective for
Lennon; John did not believe that organized religion was getting the
job done, hence his attitude was 'every man for himself' since we are
all in the same boat. Harrison similarly wrote about being annoyed
that the Church purports to hold the franchise on spiritual matters.
> > that he was trying to comprehend Christ's parables, and wanted Jesus
> > to prevail. "God" was more about returning to himself after the
> > 'Beatle John' experience than repudiating religion.
>
> Bollocks.
From John's 1980 interview for "Playboy":
"With the Beatles, the records are the point, not the Beatles as
individuals. You don't need the package, just as you don't need the
Christian package or the Marxist package to get the message. People
always got the image I was an anti-Christ or anti-religion. I'm not.
I'm a most religious fellow. I was brought up a Christian and I only
now understand some of the things that Christ was saying in those
parables. Because people got hooked on the teacher and missed the
message… If the Beatles or the 'Sixties had a message, it was to
learn to swim. Period. And once you learn to swim, swim. The people
who are hung up on the Beatles' and the 'Sixties' dream missed the
whole point when the Beatles' and the 'Sixties' dream became the
point."
The "I don't believe"s in the song "God" reflect his statement they as
a band "believed," but towards the end, "Suddenly, we didn't
believe." It's like the story of McCartney praying his late mother
would come back to life, then losing faith in prayer when she didn't.
John ultimately realized that faith should have its limits, so he was
focusing on himself and his family because that was what was important
in his own reality. He wanted to get across that proper ethics
transcend any religious source for them in "Imagine." He would just
as soon say "God is a concept" as that he *was* God, quick to add "not
a god or The God," or that we all have the potential for divinity in
us just like evil. He was also interested in other religions such as
Buddhism, and read a lot of material on spiritual topics - "The
Passover Plot" had been on his mind when he made the infamous "bigger
than Jesus" remark. The Beatles all claimed to be agnostic and said
they had not been frightened into prayer when they thought their plane
would crash, drinking instead, but Lennon also said he believed people
extolling Jesus with greatness.
> Meanwhile I've thought of another police connection..the song was
> based on a police siren....
>
> There a cops theme in there somewhere...and what with "Piggies" and
> "Blue Meanies" about to crop up..around the time in 67 was there
> anybody getting busted...? Or was that 68?
>
> Danny
The police reference in 'Walrus' most likely regards their uniforms in
the Pepper photo session. Lennon once said, "If you look closely at
the cover, two of them are flying, and two aren't - two of them didn't
want to share with the others."
Curtis Eagal
> > his song "God": Lennon also said he was "a most religious fellow,"
>
> JL was not a religeous fellow..on the contrary..he was as athiest as
> me. Serve Yourself says it all.
Not to beat a dead horse, but John's 1969 interview with Ken Seymour
of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, done when Lennon and Ono
were conducting their Bed-In for Peace in Montreal, surfaced only in
2008, where he clarified his controversial comment from a few years
prior.
“It’s just an expression meaning the Beatles seem to me to have more
influence over youth than Christ... Now I wasn’t saying that was a
good idea, ‘cause I’m one of Christ’s biggest fans. And if I can turn
the focus on the Beatles on to Christ’s message, then that’s what
we’re here to do.”
He blamed “the hypocrites” for being too “uptight” in reacting to his
comments.
“If the Beatles get on the side of Christ, which they always were, and
let people know that, then maybe the churches won’t be full, but
there’ll be a lot of Christians dancing in the dance halls. Whatever
they celebrate, God and Christ, I don’t think it matters as long as
they’re aware of Him and His message.”
“Community praying is probably very powerful… I’m just against the
hypocrisy and the hat-wearing and the socialising and the tea
parties.”
There were similar comments from an interview in the same era that
were publicized, where he said making Christ's message contemporary
was a priority.
TheWalrusWasDanny
> Not to beat a dead horse, but John's 1969 interview with Ken Seymour
> of the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, done when Lennon and Ono
> were conducting their Bed-In for Peace in Montreal, surfaced only in
> 2008, where he clarified his controversial comment from a few years
> prior.
>
> “It’s just an expression meaning the Beatles seem to me to have more
> influence over youth than Christ... Now I wasn’t saying that was a
> good idea, ‘cause I’m one of Christ’s biggest fans. And if I can turn
> the focus on the Beatles on to Christ’s message, then that’s what
> we’re here to do.”
Fucking good points young man, but I'm not convinced..and if you do
convince me I'll be disappointed in JL! I'm sensing an element of back
peddling in the 1969 interview so as not to ostrich size a vast record
buying section of society....call me cynical!!
Danny
TheWalrusWasDanny
> Somebody," which came from too orthodox a religious perspective for
> Lennon; John did not believe that organized religion was getting the
> job done, hence his attitude was 'every man for himself' since we are
> all in the same boat.
mmmm...
Not convinced..for the record here is the lyric:
You say you found Jesus. Christ!
He's the only one
You say you've found Buddha
Sittin' in the sun
You say you found Mohammed
Facin' to the East
You say you found Krishna
Dancin' in the street
Well there's somethin' missing in this God Almighty stew
And it's your mother (your mother, don't forget your mother, la)
You got to serve yourself
nobody gonna do for you
You gotta serve yourself
nobody gonna do for you
Well you may believe in devils and you may believe in laws
But if you don't go out and serve yourself, la, ain't no room service
here
It's still the same old story
A bloody Holy War
I fight for love and glory
Ain't gonna study war no more
I fight for God and country
We're gonna set you free
or put you back in the Stone Age
If you won't be like me - y'get it?
You got to serve yourself
Ain't nobody gonna do for you
You got to serve yourself
Ain't nobody gonna do for you
Yeah you may believe in devils and you may believe in laws
'But Christ, you're gonna have to serve yourself and that's all there
is to it.
So get right back here it's in the bloody fridge. God, when I was a
kid.
Didn't have stuff like this, TV-fuckin' dinners and all that crap.
You fuckin' kids (are) all the fuckin' same! Want a fuckin' car now...
Lucky to have a pair of shoes!'
You tell me you found Jesus. Christ!
Well that's great and he's the only one
You say you just found Buddha?
and he's sittin' on his arse in the sun?
You say you found Mohammed?
Kneeling on a bloody carpet facin' the East?
You say you found Krishna
With a bald head dancin' in the street? ('Well Christ, la, you're goin
out your bleedin' girth')
You got to serve yourself
Ain't nobody gonna do for you ('that's right, la, you better get that
straight
in your fuckin' head')
You gotta serve yourself ('you know that, who else is gonna do it for
you, it ain't me, kid, I tell you that')
Well, you may believe in Jesus, and you may believe in Marx
And you may believe in Marks and Spencer's and you maybe believe in
bloody
Woolworths
But there's something missing in this whole bloody stew
And it's your mother, your poor bloody mother ('she what bore you in
the
back bedroom, full of piss and shit and fuckin' midwives. God, you
can't
forget that all too quick, you know. You should have been in the
bloody
war, la, and you'da known all about it.
Well, I'll tell you something.')
It's still the same old story
A Holy bloody War, you know, with the Pope and all that stuff
I fight for love and glory
Ain't gonna study no war, more war
I fight for God and country, the Queen and all that
We're gonna set you free. yeah? all them "nig-nogs"? sure...
Bomb you back into the fuckin' Stone Age
If you won't be like me, you know, get down on your knees and pray
Well there's somethin' missing in this God Almighty stew
And it's your goddamn mother you dirty little git, now
get in there and wash yer ears
,,,,,back to me again...I can see no other interperation of JL's
athiest viewpoint...the one factor that's important is yer mum, she
waht brought you up in the piss and shit...no Jesus, or Buddah, or
mohammad...
> > Bollocks.
>
> From John's 1980 interview for "Playboy":
>
> "With the Beatles, the records are the point, not the Beatles as
> individuals. You don't need the package, just as you don't need the
> Christian package or the Marxist package to get the message. People
> always got the image I was an anti-Christ or anti-religion. I'm not.
> I'm a most religious fellow.
Sounds a bit like JLs taking the piss a bit there...
I was brought up a Christian and I only
> now understand some of the things that Christ was saying in those
> parables. Because people got hooked on the teacher and missed the
> message… If the Beatles or the 'Sixties had a message, it was to
> learn to swim. Period. And once you learn to swim, swim. The people
> who are hung up on the Beatles' and the 'Sixties' dream missed the
> whole point when the Beatles' and the 'Sixties' dream became the
> point."
Quite dig the way he's comparing JC to the Beatles there!!!
>
> The "I don't believe"s in the song "God" reflect his statement they as
> a band "believed," but towards the end, "Suddenly, we didn't
> believe." It's like the story of McCartney praying his late mother
> would come back to life, then losing faith in prayer when she didn't.
> John ultimately realized that faith should have its limits, so he was
> focusing on himself and his family because that was what was important
> in his own reality. He wanted to get across that proper ethics
> transcend any religious source for them in "Imagine." He would just
> as soon say "God is a concept" as that he *was* God, quick to add "not
> a god or The God," or that we all have the potential for divinity in
> us just like evil. He was also interested in other religions such as
> Buddhism, and read a lot of material on spiritual topics - "The
> Passover Plot" had been on his mind when he made the infamous "bigger
> than Jesus" remark. The Beatles all claimed to be agnostic and said
> they had not been frightened into prayer when they thought their plane
> would crash, drinking instead, but Lennon also said he believed people
> extolling Jesus with greatness.
With the greatest respect Curtis I do think your climbing up your own
arse there a bit...The first statement in God says it all..and JL
confirmed such in LR..the more pain people are in then the more
they're likely to turn to the sky fairies...still not convinced that
JL was a religeous fellow, even after you've quoted the guy!! maybe
somebody out there can ask Fred..he'd know!!
>
> > Meanwhile I've thought of another police connection..the song was
> > based on a police siren....
>
> > There a cops theme in there somewhere...and what with "Piggies" and
> > "Blue Meanies" about to crop up..around the time in 67 was there
> > anybody getting busted...? Or was that 68?
>
> > Danny
>
> The police reference in 'Walrus' most likely regards their uniforms in
> the Pepper photo session. Lennon once said, "If you look closely at
> the cover, two of them are flying, and two aren't - two of them didn't
> want to share with the others."
But there are *lots* of police references...soe more will pop out if I
think about it again....quite dig the pepper thing you said there
though..
Danny
Curtis Eagal
wrote:
All the Beatles joined in the "apology" when they came to the US in
1966; in Britain the comment was taken as being "holier than thou"
rather than sacrilegious, so no controversy across the pond.
McCartney said Lennon was trying to be "helpful." Paul has also
stated, "We were actually very pro-Church; it wasn't any sort of
demonic, anti-religion point of view that John was trying to express.
If you read the whole article, what he was trying to say was something
that we all believed in: 'I don't know what's wrong with the Church.
At the moment, The Beatles are bigger than Jesus Christ. They're not
building Jesus enough; they ought to do more.' But he made the
unfortunate mistake of talking very freely, because [journalist]
Maureen [Cleave] was someone we knew very well, to whom we would just
talk straight from the shoulder. Was it a mistake? I don't know. In
the short term, yes. Maybe not in the long term."
John had experiences that soured him on the Church itself - being
ejected for giggling, not having his marriage to Yoko sanctified
because of the divorce - many people could have similar negative
associations for reasons that have nothing to do with the story of
Jesus. The music works on many levels, the songwriting is genius and
evokes strong responses even from those who cannot understand
English. The philosophical aspects I've deciphered are very solid,
and should not prove threatening to anyone's belief or disbelief. I
have considered your comment long before you posted it, but can only
offer what I found, which continually impresses me. Lennon quoted
Donovan saying he goes to church every day, but it's within his own
head.
abe slaney
> The police reference in 'Walrus' most likely regards their uniforms in
> the Pepper photo session. Lennon once said, "If you look closely at
> the cover, two of them are flying, and two aren't - two of them didn't
> want to share with the others."
I've always guessed Lennon and McCartney from their eyes on the
gatefold spread.
Jones
his TV. The remote had four buttons: volume up and down, channel up and
down. It actually mechanically turned the manual station changer. Zump
zump zump. The reason I mention this is that even 40 years ago there was
channel surfing, no doubt especially in regards to easily bored rich
young pop stars with rich young pop star toys.
Like all great song writers, John seemed to have a very visual auditory
sense. We all know he used to turn on the TV with the sound off, and
perhaps he twiddled the radio dial simultaneously as he watched the
tube--to see if magic would happen, to see if he could cause a
synchronous happy coincidence between the radio sound and the TV
picture.
The hyper scene changing within Walrus strikes me as an effort to relate
John's particular channel surfing experiences through song. It's jump
cut after jump cut after jump cut. It's sensory overload. From penguins
to knickers to priestesses to pigs to police to smokers to jokers. It's
the channel changer spinning out of control, set to a pumping throbbing
cadence. It's the opposite of Jagger's un-gratification in Satisfaction.
It evokes force feeding--like he's bleeding electronic culture out the
eye balls. It's kind of Clockwork Orangie, isn't it?
So if he isn't commenting on advertising itself, he's using the
imagery--the structure of advertising as the vessels of his intended
meaning. The ghosts of advertising are there, the way he presents the
problems and solutions: knickers down? face long? Sell! Sell! Buy! Buy!
In the England of the day, that's how the ads worked. If you listen to
Beatles' fly on the wall stuff, and out take stuff, you will hear that
much of John's patter was him channeling the broadcast advertising of
the day. "..thought she was a cleaner, but she was a frying pan..." I
believe this song was a long time gestating inside of John, perhaps the
longest of any his songs.
I assert this: the only Beatles songs that are meaningless are their
ditty songs, like All Together Now, or Her Majesty. Even Rev 9 describes
a journey of sorts. They worked like coal miners and did not make these
huge efforts to say nothing.
Timothy J
TheWalrusWasDanny
When the police arrest you in the UK a standard line is "Who's been a
naughty boy then?"
Danny
TheWalrusWasDanny
>
> - Show quoted text -
When the Christian church wanted to use Imagine but say "Imagine *one*
religeon" JL said no.
"Imagine No religeon" is what he sings...granted it's
hyperpottamus...but there's a pebble in the beach.
All the Macca quotes about the Beatles Bigger than Christ statement
are just the fabs trying to dig themselves out of a hole because
they'd upset lots of sixties people who believe in the sky fairy
called Christ/God..who was particulary big in the 60's and still is.
The lennon quote about going to church in his own head is simply
saying he's an athiest IMO..I mean fuck me, I go to church every day
in my own head..and I'm an Athiest!! I might borrow that quote
actually...
Danny
rwalker
If you post there, continue to cross post here. First, this place
could use more signal and less noise, and second, my news reader
(Agent), for some reason, never shows any posts at RMBM.
ermitano
wrote:
>
> - Mostrar texto de la cita -
what the hell is that "and one religion too?"
sounds very funny!! Imagine, the christian version... well, it must
have a pedophile verse somewhere...
TheWalrusWasDanny
>
> - Show quoted text -
Lennon talked of it in an interview..I'm sure that's how I know of
it..
Danny
rags
ad50-358...@u31g2000pra.googlegroups.com:
> I submitted a lengthy article to the moderated ng on 15 March which
> was not posted; it included excerpts from the ebook. I'm not afraid
> to engage the fans here, and I didn't appreciate being censored
> there. A google search of my pen-name would bring it up easily, but
> since you asked for the link - http://tinyurl.com/y53ks4q
Many thanks for the link. Re rmbm - did you get an acknowledgement of your
post? If not, then they almost certainly didn't receive it (saki?). Which
would be a pity. I would have thought a preview of your books would be on-
topic, and so acceptable; rmbm doesn't "censor" on-topic text.
Stephen X. Carter
<eagali...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Apr 24, 11:16 am, rags <rags_mail_@_fast_mail_._fm_._invalid>
>wrote:
>> Curtis Eagal <eagalitar...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:d0172e5d-ead7-485a-
>> 85b8-fb4d78ec6...@n33g2000pri.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > I was skirting around it when discussing "All Those Years Ago"; just
>> > click the link in my profile.
>>
>> For those of us reading this with a news reader, could you clarify what you
>> mean by "the link in my profile" please. And might you consider posting
>> your articles in rmbm ... (they won't be drowned in slime that way!).
>>
>> --
>> -= rags =-
>> <www.math.mcgill.ca/rags>
>> rags _at_ math _dot_ mcgill _dot_ ca
>
>I submitted a lengthy article to the moderated ng on 15 March which
>was not posted; it included excerpts from the ebook.
I truly pray that your "ebook" uses paragraphs! :-)
Fattuchus
wrote:
IMO John did have religious beliefs; he rejected the major Western
religions and organized religions. However, Lennon called himself a
born again pagan. If you read Fred's great book and other sources,
John believed in Tarot cards, numerology, horoscopes, etc. IMO Lennon
also admired some of Jesus' teachings about peace, brotherhood, etc.
Further, a few days back, I posted a link to a youtube video where
John explained to Sean that when a person dies, the physical body is
gone, but a person takes on a spiritual form. John believed in an
afterlife.
Eagalit
You clearly have an adept understanding of the ways things are playing
out. I truly see the progress. Looking forward to reading more of
your findings.
saki
> I submitted a lengthy article to the moderated ng on 15 March which
> was not posted; it included excerpts from the ebook. I'm not afraid
> to engage the fans here, and I didn't appreciate being censored
> there. A google search of my pen-name would bring it up easily, but
> since you asked for the link - http://tinyurl.com/y53ks4q
Thanks for the link, Curtis.
By the way, no submission from you to rec.music.beatles.moderated was
received. I looked at the queue -- there were posts received and
approved on March 13, March 16, March 17, and March 18 but nothing on
March 15 and nothing with your name or email address appears in the queue.
If you submit something to rmbm and it doesn't appear, please feel free
to email me and let me know. I'd rather try to investigate and fix the
problem if I can, but I can't do that unless I know about it.
Moderators don't censor posts, we don't edit them, we don't reject them
unless they're off-topic (e.g. no mention of the Beatles or
Beatles-related topics), commercial in nature, or libelous, and if we
have to reject a post for any of these reasons we contact the submitter
to offer him or her the chance to reformat the post to fall within
charter guidelines.
The only posts we've rejected in the last two months were three, all
offering Italian fashions for sale, which may be of interest to some but
were certainly off-topic for the newsgroup. Everything else received was
on-topic and was processed for submission.
saki
> If you post there, continue to cross post here. First, this place
> could use more signal and less noise, and second, my news reader
> (Agent), for some reason, never shows any posts at RMBM.
All posts published in rmbm are automatically crossposted to rmb.
I used to use xnews as a newsreader, which automatically deleted posts
in rmbm if I'd already ready them in rmb -- this to prevent you from
reading the post twice. This may have been a setting, I'm not sure, and
I no longer use xnews since I switched to a Mac years ago. Mozilla
Thunderbird, which I use currently as a newsreader, preserves posts in
both newsgroups.
Nil
> All posts published in rmbm are automatically crossposted to rmb.
Yes... but not until hours or days later. That's the main reason I
don't post to rmbm.
It's a nobel and valuable thing you do, saki, but it doesn't fit in
with the way I work.
saki
No problem, I understand. I check the rmbm queue three or four times a
day during the workweek, a little less during weekends, and never
overnight in my timezone. If you prefer instant turnaround from rmb,
it's okay by me.
It's also worth pointing out as well that we can't control how quickly a
post is propagated downstream. One of the reasons I started subscribing
to News.Individual.Net was because of its quick and comprehensive
newsfeed. The free one I'm entitled to use at UCLA is pokey at best and
drops a number of posts per newsgroup, and Google's newsfeed is also
surprisingly quirky. Newsfeed services have a lot to do with propagation
once a post leaves the rmbm queue.
Curtis Eagal
> Curtis Eagal wrote:
> > I submitted a lengthy article to the moderated ng on 15 March which
> > was not posted; it included excerpts from the ebook. I'm not afraid
> > to engage the fans here, and I didn't appreciate being censored
> > there. A google search of my pen-name would bring it up easily, but
>
> Thanks for the link, Curtis.
>
> By the way, no submission from you to rec.music.beatles.moderated was
> received. I looked at the queue -- there were posts received and
> approved on March 13, March 16, March 17, and March 18 but nothing on
> March 15 and nothing with your name or email address appears in the queue.
>
> If you submit something to rmbm and it doesn't appear, please feel free
> to email me and let me know. I'd rather try to investigate and fix the
> problem if I can, but I can't do that unless I know about it.
>
> Moderators don't censor posts, we don't edit them, we don't reject them
> unless they're off-topic (e.g. no mention of the Beatles or
> Beatles-related topics), commercial in nature, or libelous, and if we
> have to reject a post for any of these reasons we contact the submitter
> to offer him or her the chance to reformat the post to fall within
> charter guidelines.
>
> The only posts we've rejected in the last two months were three, all
> offering Italian fashions for sale, which may be of interest to some but
> were certainly off-topic for the newsgroup. Everything else received was
> on-topic and was processed for submission.
>
> ----
Thank you, and everyone else for your supportive comments - I'd
respond to you all but, as John would say, "I haven't enough pens."
Maybe they considered my post commercial, because I am promoting my
ebook, but I know I pushed the submit button and it was received.
I know John said a lot of provocative things about religion, I think
he was frustrated about getting across his own perspective because
people lacked a frame of reference that could accommodate it.
Remember that as a child John walked into his Aunt Mimi's kitchen and
announced that he had seen God. And what George Harrison explained
about Hare Krishna seems to apply: while Krishna means the Christ
("Whatever Lord you like," George said), Hare indicates the energy
around oneself - so the chant is about combining the two. Harrison
wrote that he declined to participate in the confirmation ceremony,
vowing to himself that he would confirm his faith later on his own.
Very often a personal element is also evident, with the Christian
aspect as a parallel alternate theme. McCartney, in the "One Hand
Clapping" television program which was never aired, admitted to trying
to do two things at once, one being more of a hack songwriting effort
than the other.
And as they progressed, the albums took on a transcendent quality,
which they explained as looking at the entire record as the work of
art rather than merely a collection of subtly related songs: this
advanced formatting suggests secondary subtexts, beginning with
"Rubber Soul" and continuing through "Abbey Road" (though undetermined
for what became "Let It Be"). So analyzing "Sgt Pepper" at the same
level as the debut album you might get the Christian element, but miss
other layers of meaning that are also important. Things that seem
inconsequential take on unexpected significance when considered in
different contexts; an amazing phenomenon is when these parallel
subtexts intersect, appearing to validate each other.
The Christian elements are used to build intense drama into the songs
drawing on the implications of the ancient story, not as an attempt to
convert. It is as if they are exploring their faith and finding
musical devices that attest to it. The obvious affect on the unaware
would be the vaguely subconscious feeling of something monumental
happening, emotions on a grander than ordinary scale. We can never
separate their talent as performers from their charisma as
personalities from their genius as songwriters: but we can look back
at the records and their history and marvel at what transpired.
Perhaps they recorded Christmas messages each year for their fans as
innocuous cultural pandering, but it could suggest more.
If John were truly an atheist disbeliever, he would have no need for
the terminology used in "Bring on the Lucie (Freeda People)," and
foresee no "Instant Karma." Lennon's "Imagine" was about becoming
post-Christian, absorbing Christ's principles to the point that they
pervade society, the ultimate goal for a true Christian. It is not
only easy to imagine there's no heaven, for most people it's also
honest since they'd have no actual knowledge of it. Forget the fear
that has been used to guide people along various dogmatic agendas, the
carrot of heaven and the stick of hell; divest yourselves of
connections to objects, focus on people instead. Religion is how the
unenlightened strive to do God's will: if we actually had that
insight, we could just follow the directives, with no further need for
the imperfect go-between process called religion. To renounce
religion because you reject the notion of being held accountable by a
higher power was not the message, it was about creating a utopian
society by each person internalizing a perfected morality.
Perhaps since my birthday is two days off John's I feel very much on
his wavelength (coincidentally everyone else's astrological signs in
my immediate family match those of the others - Gemini, Pisces, Cancer
- with one other member whose name appears in a song title). I was
alone in the kitchen once, using a new oven; after heating for few
minutes the glass on the broiler shattered explosively behind me -
about twenty minutes later, the breaking news announcement came on
television that John Lennon had been murdered, about twenty minutes
prior. Even then, in 1980, I had realized the basic premise disclosed
here, but what I've gone through getting to this point could be
another book.
saki
> Thank you, and everyone else for your supportive comments - I'd
> respond to you all but, as John would say, "I haven't enough pens."
> Maybe they considered my post commercial, because I am promoting my
> ebook, but I know I pushed the submit button and it was received.
I looked at the rmbm queue again. There's nothing in the queue from you
at all, searching by your first or last name, email address, or subject.
You may have clicked your submit button but we didn't receive the post.
Some folks have had occasional rare problems submitting via their news
service. In those cases an email submission will go directly to the
queue via rmb...@evolution.seltaeb.net.
Quoting from your own eBook would not be considered a commercial posting.
Curtis Eagal
> Curtis Eagal wrote:
> > Thank you, and everyone else for your supportive comments - I'd
> > respond to you all but, as John would say, "I haven't enough pens."
> > Maybe they considered my post commercial, because I am promoting my
> > ebook, but I know I pushed the submit button and it was received.
>
> I looked at the rmbm queue again. There's nothing in the queue from you
> at all, searching by your first or last name, email address, or subject.
> You may have clicked your submit button but we didn't receive the post.
>
> Some folks have had occasional rare problems submitting via their news
> service. In those cases an email submission will go directly to the
>
> Quoting from your own eBook would not be considered a commercial posting.
>
> ----
Will try cross-posting for the next project, which I'm trying to
complete very soon and should be even more newsworthy. Thanks again.
Eagalit
Your analysis is more than intriguing. Is there a way I could contact
you personally for further inquiries? I belong to a very small group
which does precisely what you are doing. I find it both necessary and
wise for us to cooperate.
The Harmonic Wheel
> And what George Harrison explained
> about Hare Krishna seems to apply: while Krishna means the Christ
> ("Whatever Lord you like," George said), Hare indicates the energy
> around oneself - so the chant is about combining the two.
Hare also means "king" in a few South East Asian languages.
The Harmonic Wheel
> On Apr 24, 5:57 am, John Doherty <j...@johndoherty.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 24, 1:11 am, Curtis Eagal <eagalitar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> The lyrics in this tune are particularly problematic since there is
> >> confusion whether one should analyze them based on their derivative
> >> meanings, or follow the hints John gave as guidelines expressing his
> >> personal thoughts regarding them. Should the pilchard be interpreted
> >> as a type of sardine, or a reference to Sgt Pilcher, who was on a
> >> crusade against the counterculture's rock star heroes?
> > First of all, please take a breath...-)
> > Seriously, this post is hard to wade into, read and respond to because
> > it's just one long paragraph.
> > But as to substance, I knew of Sgt. Pilcher, but never connected him
> > to the pilchard (which is a tuna like canned fish sold in UK not as
> > common in US), but I think you are correct, digging deeper. I wasn't
> > as aware of him until much later, when he busts John & Yoko & George
> > in 1968. But he was a player earlier, and I think you're right that
> > john is tweaking him here.
> >> ..Even though
> >> the "element'ry penguin" is supposed to represent Allen Ginsberg, the
> >> phrase makes me think of a parochial school's habited nun, whose
> >> singing Hare Krishna would be more ironic than the beat poet doing the
> >> same - "The words 'Element'ry penguin' meant that it's naïve to just
> >> go around chanting Hare Krishna, or putting all your faith in one
> >> idol": "elementary" can mean simple, but it's unclear how the penguin
> >> part relates to Ginsberg.
> > Sure a "penguin" was one of the words we used for the sisters who
> > taught us in primary school. JL's likely linking Ginsburg's embrace of
> > Krishna to a much less hip vision of a nun at the rosary. He's also
> > tweaking George, who would have the last word with "All Those Years
> > Ago" when he included the line that "(God) is the only reason we
> > exist" in his tribute to the guy who famously stated he did not
> > believe in Him in "God". heh.
>
> I would seriously caution against reading too much into the lyrics of
> his song "God": Lennon also said he was "a most religious fellow,"
> to prevail. "God" was more about returning to himself after the
> 'Beatle John' experience than repudiating religion.
>
> destroyed to preserve what it represented. Paul wanted to 'start
> over' after the "Abbey Road" phase, but John thought that was
> ridiculous. Lennon told interviewers they were not actually "show
> business" per-se, but were doing something that would be completed,
> and even correctly estimated in 1964 that it would take another five
> years.
>
> Harrison became more heavy-handed with his religiosity, Lennon
> secularized his beliefs for broader context. John admitted "Girl" was
> about how the Christian message got twisted by the followers, though
> overtly it's just about a relationship with some issues. Interpreting
> "The Word" without reference to Christian concepts would be
> inadequate. Harrison's tribute does not posthumously force religious
> belief on an atheist Lennon, but reveals their shared faith: Harrison
> admired John for being strong enough to make that controversial
> statement, which was taken the wrong way.
>
> "You were the one who had made it so clear"
>
> "You were the way to the truth when you said 'All You Need Is Love'"
>
> "They've forgotten all about God,
> He's the only reason we exist -
> Yet you were the one that they said was so weird"
>
> "You said it all, though not many had ears"
>
> "You were the one that had mentioned it all"
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Lennon was super-literate enough to intend
> >> one thing idiosyncratically while also internally acknowledging a
> >> parallel meaning, as can be seen in his Joycean poetry. One might get
> >> a "tanning" from the rain in the middle section, but in the sense of
> >> it beating down, not darkening the skin, so that's an obvious pun.
> >> The similarity of the opening lines to "Marching to Pretoria" from the
> >> Boer War era could not be random coincidence. The line about
> >> policemen sitting in a row reminds me of the inner photo from the
> >> Pepper gatefold sleeve, where Paul's OPD patch on his uniform was
> >> explained as being from the Ottowa Police Department: in the film
> >> there are four policemen (fitting the siren motif) standing atop the
> >> structure in the airfield that looks like a concrete chair for a
> >> giant. George Harrison's favorite line was about letting the knickers
> >> down - that and the "pornographic priestess" phrase obviously
> >> contributed to the BBC radio ban; notice how "man" and "boy" are used
> >> ambiguously as interjections or descriptions. It is difficult to
> >> believe they were unaware the play being mixed in live was "King
> >> Lear," since some features of that play correspond closely with
> >> concepts in the songs and film -
> > Supposedly, Lennon stumbled onto it and then dug the synchronicity.
>
> It follows a pattern of Shakespearean parallels throughout - the White
> Album is their "Macbeth," the Scottish play where number nine takes on
> magical significance.
>
> >> even the title "I Am The Walrus"
> >> could contain a subtle, complex joke juxtaposed with certain dialogue
> >> from the play.
> > Do go on; I'm intrigued...
>
> It will be published later, but pivots on an anagram of the
> acrostic.
>
> I've already put out a digital text about the first stage with the
> debut album, which is a good place to start. The next portion should
> be available in July, but I've got a surprise planned for the nearer
> future.
>
>
>
>
>
> >> McCartney's direction and editing of the Walrus
> >> sequence especially was nothing short of cinematic genius, despite the
> >> poor initial reviews from the first black-and-white television
> >> broadcast: watch for foreshadowing of the later scene with the
> >> stripper Jan Carson on the word "kicking" before Poe's name. This was
> >> one of the most terrifying tracks to hear backwards, because of what
> >> the lengthy coda becomes when reversed - in the film a bizarre conga
> >> line is formed with an inset circular image of fire alternating with
> >> people eating, presumably from the omitted luncheon scene. The
> >> Beatles tried to make their songs into entities that could not be
> >> easily fathomed, so there are what appear to be layers of meaning rather
> >> than a single, simple explanation, making them function as art instead
> >> of merely straightforward communication, yet there is a basic major
> >> subtext running throughout the entire song catalog.
> > What's the major subtext, then? Not sure I agree about Paul's
> > cinematic genius...
>
> I was skirting around it when discussing "All Those Years Ago"; just
> with the obvious answer to your question, anyone with a pc can
> download the reader if you don't have a kindle device.
>
> Found out in my research I was born during the week the other three
> met Ringo in Hamburg [exactly 111 years after the death of Poe]; their
> first appearance on the Ed Sullivan show was my first clear memory, so
> my original perception of the phenomenon was as a child. I have great
> respect for what The Beatles accomplished, and base my theories on
> statements they have made themselves, as well as my personal
> observations that plausibly coincide. The details have already been
> meticulously worked out for the entire series. Harrison said they had
> trapped themselves in a box, but that had more to do with this subtext
> than the creativity they applied to the task.
I couldn't have said it better myself although I have tried... many
times.
saki
> Your analysis is more than intriguing. Is there a way I could contact
> you personally for further inquiries? I belong to a very small group
> which does precisely what you are doing. I find it both necessary and
> wise for us to cooperate.
Sure, my email address is in the header of each posting I make, as well
as in the .sig file at the end. Feel free to email me.
John Doherty
wrote:
> With the greatest respect Curtis I do think your climbing up your own
> arse there a bit...The first statement in God says it all..and JL
> confirmed such in LR..the more pain people are in then the more
> they're likely to turn to the sky fairies...still not convinced that
> JL was a religeous fellow, even after you've quoted the guy!! maybe
> somebody out there can ask Fred..he'd know!!
>
Though I've enjoyed your contributions here, Curtis, I have to agree
with Danny on this.
From the time John chose to speak at all about Christianity, he was
always a "small c" christian. Although a fan of Jesus' message of
peace, I never heard him say he thought he was God or his personal
savior, or anything approaching that.
He never rejected his most public statement on religion, ("God") and
even if "Serve Yourself" was never meant for release, that's all the
more of an indication of his real (private) feelings about belief or
faith.
And I know he enjoyed visiting all the temples while in Japan, but he
was very active in alternative occult things (astrology and tarot) as
well. I think this was the equivalent of hedging his bets, like in
Revolution, when you can count him out (in).
rwalker
Thanks, I'll check my settings and see if I can figure out what's
going on.
Eagalit
Actually I was talking to Curtis. Sorry for the misunderstanding
Saki. It's urgent that I get in contact with Mr. Eagal as soon as
possible. So again, Mr. Eagal, if I could get a contact number or
something of the sort.
Curtis Eagal
I think there's some confusion here: I am not insinuating that The
Beatles intended to promote Christianity as a commercial for organized
religion - the implication is that they were subtly using the
Christian story as a philosophical motif, curious whether any
professed believers would even recognize those elements.
In the 1966 "apology" to the US at the start of that fall tour, Lennon
admitted his discussion with Maureen Cleave had emerged from a feeling
of frustration: “It’s silly going on saying, ‘Yes it’s all fine,’ and
‘We’re all Christians,’ and ‘We’re all doing this’ - and we’re all NOT
doing it.” After years of releasing these very elaborate works the
questions The Beatles were being asked must have seemed vapid and
superficial, demonstrating society was nowhere near the level of
understanding they had wished: John wanted to stir things up, but
because people could not suddenly comprehend what they had already
done by that time, this effort backfired.
Lennon's interview with David Wigg of "Daily Express" in June 1969 is
also worth noting on this topic. When Wigg asked about John and Yoko
being taken seriously in their anti-war protests, John replied, "Part
of our policy is not to be taken seriously, because our opposition,
whoever they may be in all their manifest forms, don't know how to
handle humor… We stand a better chance under that guise, 'cause all
the serious people like Martin Luther King and Kennedy and Ghandi got
shot." But ultimately, it was for his controversial statement that
Lennon was indeed shot, by someone who later admitted being
satanically possessed.
When Wigg asked John to clarify his recent remark in France that he
was God, Lennon replied, "We're all God. I mean, Christ said the
kingdom of heaven is within you. And that's what it means. And the
Indians say that, and the Zen people say that. It's a basic thing of
religion. We're all God, I'm not a god or The God--not THE God!--but
we're all God, and we're all potentially divine, and potentially
evil. We all have everything within us, and the kingdom of heaven is
nigh, and within us, and if you look hard enough, you'll see it."
John expressed belief in life after death "without any doubt"; Wigg
asked if he had any special experiences that made him believe so
convincingly. The answer was: "In meditation, on drugs, on diets,
I've been aware of a Soul, and been aware of The Power. Somebody
asked a witch on tv, are you a black witch or a white witch [Yoko
giggled, knowing where John was going], and she said there's no such
thing: there is a power which people tap, and they use it for whatever
ends they use it. Now God is a power which we're all capable of
tapping, we're all light bulbs that can tap the electricity. You can
use electricity to kill people, or to light the room, you know, and
God is that, neither one nor the other, but everything. And we use
Him to our best ability. And it's no good blaming God for war,
because you can use the H-bomb for cheap power throughout the world,
or you can use it for a bomb - the H-Power, whatever it is, atomic
power - and God is that."
Lennon was asked about his church-going practices, and responded, "I
respect churches because of the sacredness that's been put on them
over the years by people who do believe. I think a lot of bad things
have happened in the name of the church, in the name of Christ, and
therefore I shy away from church. And as Donovan once said, I go to
my own church in my own temple once a day - and I think people who
need a church should go, and the others who know the church is in your
own head should visit that temple, cause that's where the source is."
At their first Bed-In in Amsterdam, John stated, "Yoko and I are quite
willing to be the world's clowns, if by doing it we do some good. For
reasons known only to themselves, people print what I say. And I'm
saying peace. We're not pointing a finger at anybody. There are no-
good guys and bad guys. The struggle is in the mind. We must bury
our own monsters and stop condemning people. We are all Christ and
Hitler. We want Christ to win. We're trying to make Christ's message
contemporary. What would He have done if He had advertisements,
records, films, TV and newspapers? Christ made miracles to tell His
message. Well, the miracle today is communications, so let's use it."
There is also more from the interview with Ken Seymour at the later
Montreal Bed-In, which was not publicized until 2008. About being
banned from church at fourteen by a vicar for "having the giggles,"
John stated, "I wasn't convinced of the vicar's sincerity anyway. But
I knew it was the house of God. So I went along for that, and the
atmosphere always made me feel emotional and religious, or whatever
you call it." Lennon added, "I haven't got any sort of dream of a
physical heaven where there's lots of chocolate and pretty women in
nightgowns, playing harps... I believe you can make heaven within your
own mind. The kingdom of heaven is within you, Christ said, and I
believe that."
One of the songs on their debut album perfectly encapsulates this
statement by Christ about heaven being within ourselves, so I explain
how his fascination with this notion emerged creatively in the portion
that is currently available. John is gone, but we still have his
words, which should not be ignored in determining his perspective.
Please explain why he would fabricate non-existent faith when it's
very clear his fans did not care one way or the other. Lennon's
honesty was often brutal, but I think it was also very real.
Certainly he is a very powerful cultural figure, and the atheist
movement might like to claim him as spokesman, but that seems at best
disingenuous. The songs are not so much statements as expressions;
analyzing the lyrics without appreciating the subtext is like taking
quoted material out of context. God being "a concept by which we
measure our pain" does not negate the existence of a Supreme Being, it
is merely a philosophical definition of such an entity.
Use of the Tarot and astrology are only inconsistent with Christian
faith as defined by some people; some even use Ouija boards with
religious artifacts to keep the lower forces away, but I do not
recommend using that particular oracle because I don't think the
average person can handle what might come through the door when it has
been opened. Christianity and spiritualism are not at odds, so your
premise there seems dubious. John was not able to complete his
illumination of the I Ching, the world's oldest fortune-telling
method, which The Beatles used extensively for business decisions in
their later phases. And you know the "Revolution" waffling was about
whether destruction was necessary for change, so it's not relevant to
the rest of your argument.
TheWalrusWasDanny
> we're all God, and we're all potentially divine, and potentially
> evil. We all have everything within us, and the kingdom of heaven is
> nigh, and within us, and if you look hard enough, you'll see it."
Sounds like atheism to me...
Danny
LookingGlass
Curtis Eagal
Atheism: Disbelief in the existence of God or any other deity; The
doctrine that there is neither God nor any other deity; Godlessness
esp. in conduct
Pantheism: A doctrine that the universe conceived as a whole is God;
The doctrine that there is no God but the combined forces and laws
that are manifested in the existing universe; The worship of gods of
different creeds, cults, or peoples indifferently - also toleration of
the worship of all gods (as at certain periods in the Roman Empire)
Agnosticism: The doctrine that the existence or nature of any reality
is unknown and probably unknowable or that any knowledge about matters
of ultimate concern is impossible or improbable; The doctrine that God
or any first cause is unknown and probably unknowable; A doctrine
affirming that the existence of a god is possible but denying that
there are any sufficient reasons for holding that he either does or
does not exist
Freethinker: One that forms opinions (as about religious matters) on
the basis of reason independently of authority, esp. One whose beliefs
differ markedly from those of an established religion usu. in the
direction of skepticism or denial of established belief
The latter two are relatively synonymous. The Beatles declared
themselves to be agnostic. Pantheists can be indiscriminate
believers, but I think John might have agreed with the first part of
the definition.
TheWalrusWasDanny
>
> - Show quoted text -
Useful post...and interesting..thanks for that!! (not taking the piss
- genuine)
Danny