Clave and 6/8
Matthew Dubuque
I just noticed an interesting relationship between a nanigo played in
6/8 and clave.
Mongo clearly uses this on some of his Afro-Blue solos, as well as on a
tune from his "Skins" CD.
I'll try not to be too confusing.
Think of clave in terms of the phrase...
"Shave and a HAIR CUT - two bits"
"Shave and a HAIR CUT - two bits"
"Shave and a HAIR CUT - two bits"
{This was how I learned clave in high school.}
Well one of the ways that Mongo and others solo in 6/8 is to solo off of
the following pattern:
"Shave and a HAIR CUT - two"
"Shave and a HAIR CUT - two"
I hope that's not too confusing. But it's pretty neat. Mongo's vehicle
for soloing in 6/8 is obviously almost a complete clave phrase....
Musically,
Matthew
HOW DO I MEASURE UP? Listen to the mix of Chucho Valdes, Anthony
Carillo and myself on "TUMBAO" coming in February 1999 to
http://www.picadillo.com/matthew
Yambu1
>Think of clave in terms of the phrase...
>
>"Shave and a HAIR CUT - two bits"
>"Shave and a HAIR CUT - two bits"
>"Shave and a HAIR CUT - two bits"
>
>{This was how I learned clave in high school.}
>
>Well one of the ways that Mongo and others solo in 6/8 is to solo off of
>the following pattern:
>
>"Shave and a HAIR CUT - two"
>"Shave and a HAIR CUT - two"
>
>I hope that's not too confusing. But it's pretty neat. Mongo's vehicle
>for soloing in 6/8 is obviously almost a complete clave phrase....
>
I'm not getting this. Son or rumba clave, all of it, can be the clave forany
6/8 rhythm. In rumba columbia, for example, the feel moves in and out of 4/4
and 6/8, and the rumba clave helps create that wonderful 4/4 vs. 6/8 tension.
Is it time for another one of those balls-out clave discussions?
-Mike Doran
Bruce Ishikawa
>
>Is it time for another one of those balls-out clave discussions?
I'd say so. It's been a while. And this is one of those topics that bears
repeating.
How's this:
It seems to me that in any discussion of clave, it's usually referred to as
"3-2 (but you can turn it around to 2-3)",
leading me to believe that 3-2 is the more common. But when listening, I
hear most salsa and Cuban music as 2-3, that is 2 quick ones then three more
drawn out.
So which of these is right:
1. The explanations (or my interpretation of them) are wrong, 2-3 is the
more common in salsa and son.
2. I am not counting the measures correctly.
3. This music is rhythmically so odd that all accents are on the
traditionally off beats, phrases start on the off measures and what I am
hearing is really 3-2, but I am hearing it backwards.
4. Something else.
5. Some combination of the above.
???
Here's an opportunity to test your ability to communicate this concept...
- Bruce
--
Please visit Picadillo!
http://www.picadillo.com
The Starting Point for Salsa Surfers
El Punto de Partida a la Red Salsera
The web's largest collection of Latin Music
Listen online!
MARCANE
About 8 or 9 years ago, shortly after I arrived in Miami from LA, Orestes
Vilató was being interviewed on Fusión Latina by a former WDNA programmer,
Darío and Ore said on the air that when he needs to practise his clave skills,
when he feels he needs to reenforce a feeling about clave, he would listen to
Arsenio Rodríguez and his Conjunto Todo Estrellas as he referred to them as the
kings of clave, changing clave several times in a span of 3 minutes.......
Marcané is Arturo Gómez at...wdna@paradise.net
Yo si son de la loma pero estoy en el llano rajando la leña
Música es la mejor medicina
La verdad es la verdad....Más mentiras no quiero
It's OK to think, no one has to know
Songo Man
4. Something else.
5. Some combination of the above.
???
Here's an opportunity to test your ability to communicate this concept...
- Bruce
--
If the pulse of the clave falls squarely on two, that's the "two" side of the
clave. one TWO THREE (rest) ONEtwoAND three FOUR. In no case will a clave pulse
fall on 2 on the "three side". So if you hear that "backbeat" every other
bar.....slammin on the downbeat of two, you know you've found the two side.
And I would agree that most cuban salsa employs a 2-3 clave.
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Steve Tierra
Bruce Ishikawa wrote:
>
> So which of these is right:
> 3. This music is rhythmically so odd that all accents are on the
> traditionally off beats, phrases start on the off measures and what I am hearing is really 3-2, but I am hearing it backwards.
This is, in probably over-simple terms, my understanding. Both my own
teacher who has played and studied with Cubans, and recent discussions
with Orlando Fiol (himself Cuban and deeply immersed in the music), lead
me to this.
Steve
Clay Leander
the Clave Thread Club...
"clack clack clack, clack clack..."
(well, I'm getting there...)
BTW, can anyone tell me why after two and 1/2 years
this sticks still smell funny (almost like mierda)?
- c
Yambu1
>
>songoman
>
years or so, the rumba clave is usually 2-3. Or, to put it another way (I'm
gonna be sorry I said this), the clave may be thought of as starting on the
three, instead of the one, where the segundo part of the rhythm (on the
salidor, or conga) begins.
The main thing is, in guaguancó, listen for the clave to "answer", exactly, the
first two notes of the middle drum. At least through the beginning several
bars.
-Mike Doran
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
the notation:
son clave
1&2&3&4&|1&2&3&4&|
x x x x x
maybe Matthew's example?
1&2&3&4&5&6&
x x x x
It is also possible (common) to play a 6/8 as a 2/4 which can also be
played on top of a 4/4 (which is too troublesome to try to show but the
1 and 2 of the 6/8 are played on the 1 and 3 of the 4/4):
1&2&3&4&5&6&
1 & a 2 & a
> Is it time for another one of those balls-out clave discussions?
> -Mike Doran
--
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
My Home Page, last updated 01/09/99, includes my musical autobiography
(which includes many audio files of groups I worked with beginning in
the 1960s including rare recordings by Carlos Federico and early photos
including Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo; 1998 photos of Willie Colón)
and information regarding the PC WIN95/98/3.0?/3.1? US-International
Keyboard with a new large printable U.S.International Keyboard image:
http://www.dmreed.com
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
WITHIN YOUR TEXT).
Bruce Ishikawa wrote:
>
> Yambu1 wrote in message <19990121155253...@ng-cc1.aol.com>...
> >
> >Is it time for another one of those balls-out clave discussions?
OH NO!!!!
>
> I'd say so. It's been a while. And this is one of those topics that bears
> repeating.
>
> How's this:
>
> It seems to me that in any discussion of clave, it's usually referred to as
>
> "3-2 (but you can turn it around to 2-3)",
LET US NOT GET INTO THE DISCUSSION REGARDING THE CONCEPT THAT THERE IS
ONLY ONE DIRECTION OF CLAVE AS AN EARLIER THREAD WENT ON AND ON ABOUT
WITH NO DEFINITE CONCLUSION.
>
> leading me to believe that 3-2 is the more common. But when listening, I
> hear most salsa and Cuban music as 2-3, that is 2 quick ones then three more
> drawn out.
3-2 SEEMED TO BE VERY COMMON IN BOLEROS WHILE OTHER SALSA AND SON COULD
BE EITHER 3-2 OR 2-3 DEPENDING ON THE MELODIC STRUCTURE. I SUSPECT THE
2-3 IS JUST LIGHTLY MORE COMMON. MAULÉON'S BOOK DISCUSSES THIS SOMEWHAT
IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY AND I THINK CHANGUITO'S BOOK ALSO HAS
INFORMATION.
>
> So which of these is right:
>
> 1. The explanations (or my interpretation of them) are wrong, 2-3 is the
> more common in salsa and son.
>
> 2. I am not counting the measures correctly.
>
> 3. This music is rhythmically so odd that all accents are on the
> traditionally off beats, phrases start on the off measures and what I am
> hearing is really 3-2, but I am hearing it backwards.
I SEEM TO RECALL THAT SOMETIMES THE ACTUAL CLAVE IS NOT ALWAYS CLEAR
UNTIL THE MIDDLE OF A TUNE AND THAT SOMETIMES THE MELODY USES AN ODD
NUMBER OF MEASURES WHICH CAN MAKE THE CLAVE SEEM TO REVERSE BUT WHEN
REPEATED IT COMES BACK TO THE ORIGINAL CLAVE!
>
> 4. Something else.
>
> 5. Some combination of the above.
>
> ???
>
> Here's an opportunity to test your ability to communicate this concept...
>
> - Bruce
> --
> Please visit Picadillo!
> http://www.picadillo.com
> The Starting Point for Salsa Surfers
> El Punto de Partida a la Red Salsera
> The web's largest collection of Latin Music
> Listen online!
--
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
and not just an odd number of measures in a phrase or section which
appears to make the clave change.
Do you know any such tunes?
--
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
play opposite the bass pattern instead of the old fashioned way (which I
was familiar with) where the congas play with the bass. Do I assume
correctly that the bass is following clave?
Are we talking about the same concept?
--
Songo Man
1&2&3&4&|1&2&3&4&|
x x x x x
>>
This is incorrect. Correctly written, a 3-2 son clave would be:
x= eighth note played
o= eight note rested
xooxooxo/ooxoxooo
(meas. 1) (meas 2)
Notice in measure 2 both hits are on the downbeat. This is consistent through
rumba OR son clave. It's the definative way to distinguish clave. the first x
in measure 2 is the backbeat. It coincides with the single click on the heel of
the bell. It coincides with the conga slap. It's the essence of clave.
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Songo Man
and not just an odd number of measures in a phrase or section which
appears to make the clave change.
Do you know any such tunes?
>.
Curtis claims Van Van does this, but I disagree. I have never heard the clave
change without using and odd number of bars to do it. Typically, this will
occur between a coro and a mambo.
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Yambu1
>I find it much easier to understand when the patterns are presented with
>the notation:
>
>1&2&3&4&|1&2&3&4&|
>x x x x x
>
makes no sense. Let me try this. Son clave, in 16th notes:
xooxooxoooxoxooo
Now let the reader mark the downbeats by inserting a 1 above the 1st x, 2 above
the 3rd o, 3 above the 6th o, and 4 above the last x.
The way clave was taught to me was, tap the 1,2,3,4 with your foot, and clap
the x's. Start slowly, and gradually increase to moderate speed. After lots of
practice ( do it while walking down the street), you'll understand clave
against the 4/4 downbeat, and maybe even understand this discussion.
-Mike Doran
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
notes possible on the claves unless you have some strange claves :>) so
I left out the rests. In which case, what I showed is the same as what
you showed or am I missing something?
Songo Man wrote:
>
> son clave
> 1&2&3&4&|1&2&3&4&|
> x x x x x
> >>
>
--
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
following display correctly?
1&2&3&4&|1&2&3&4&
xooxooxo|ooxoxooo
Yambu1 wrote:
>
> Dennis wrote:
>
> >I find it much easier to understand when the patterns are presented with
> >the notation:
> >
> >son clave
> >1&2&3&4&|1&2&3&4&|
> >x x x x x
> >
> Except that gets skewed in the transmission. On my screen the above notation
> makes no sense. Let me try this. Son clave, in 16th notes:
>
> xooxooxoooxoxooo
>
> Now let the reader mark the downbeats by inserting a 1 above the 1st x, 2 above
> the 3rd o, 3 above the 6th o, and 4 above the last x.
>
> The way clave was taught to me was, tap the 1,2,3,4 with your foot, and clap
> the x's. Start slowly, and gradually increase to moderate speed. After lots of
> practice ( do it while walking down the street), you'll understand clave
> against the 4/4 downbeat, and maybe even understand this discussion.
>
> -Mike Doran
--
Yambu1
>following display correctly?
>
>1&2&3&4&|1&2&3&4&
>xooxooxo|ooxoxooo
>
-Mike Doran
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
think you know what it should look like.
What email program and computer are you using?
--
Yambu1
>
>...3-2 son clave would be:
>
>x= eighth note played
>o= eight note rested
>
>xooxooxo/ooxoxooo
> (meas. 1) (meas 2)
>
>
I can only think of clave as one measure of 16th notes, with just four
downbeats instead of eight, in which case only the first and last hits are on
the downbeat.
All the fundamental rumba palito/cascara stick patterns that I know are
variations of either rumba or son clave played with the right hand, against
four downbeats (more or less), not eight, played with the left. Every clave
player I've ever seen on stage seems to be playing against four downbeats, if
you watch his feet.
Do you truly feel clave against eight downbeats? As a percussionist, am I
missing something if I don't?
-Mike Doran
Yambu1
>
>A couple of years ago, I was told that today in band music, the congas
>play opposite the bass pattern instead of the old fashioned way (which I
>was familiar with) where the congas play with the bass. Do I assume
>correctly that the bass is following clave?
>
>Are we talking about the same concept?
>
talking about the same shift. Let's listen to some recent Cachao, and I'll bet
he's playing "on the other side" of the clave, so that he seems to follow it -
or precede it, depending on when you jump in.
-Mike Doran
Yambu1
>Let's see if I got what it takes to join
>the Clave Thread Club...
>
>"clack clack clack, clack clack..."
>
No, that's the Mother-In-Law Thread Club.
-Mike Doran
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
I and the band leaders I have worked with have always counted off tunes
in 4/4. When I play timbales, the cascara is played frequently with the
right hand while the left hand might play on the 2 and 4.
I am under the impression that many, if not most, Cubans count and play
in cut time (this might explain the difference in perception). Chuck
Silverman mentioned something to that effect.
When we finally have a chance to get together (my next visit to SF or
your visit to SD), we can compare notes. I suspect that there is no
major difference in performance.
--
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
Arsenio and some new ? tunes and see if I can find the difference. Both
ways sound OK to me when listening but when playing, I habitually fall
into the old way and have to force myself to play the new way!
Songo Man
Ah! thanks, this is probably what Songoman was referring to! Does the
following display correctly?
1&2&3&4&|1&2&3&4&
xooxooxo|ooxoxooo
Yambu1 wrote:
>
> Dennis wrote:
>
> >I find it much easier to understand when the patterns are presented
with
> >the notation:
> >
> >son clave
> >1&2&3&4&|1&2&3&4&|
> >x x x x x
> >
> Except that gets skewed in the transmission. On my screen the above notation
> makes no sense. Let me try this. Son clave, in 16th notes:
>
> xooxooxoooxoxooo
>
Yeah, Dennis, that's what I saw, too. The notation is eight notes and not
sixteenth notes, but other than that, Yambu is correct. It's the way it came up
on my screen too
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Songo Man
this sticks still smell funny (almost like mierda)?
- c
>.
...ask Monica
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Songo Man
>following display correctly?
>
>1&2&3&4&|1&2&3&4&
>xooxooxo|ooxoxooo
>
-Mike Doran
>>
Why not? The bar lines don't line up, but if you ignore the top line and assume
that each x and o is an eight not, it's a son clave.
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Songo Man
All the fundamental rumba palito/cascara stick patterns that I know are
variations of either rumba or son clave played with the right hand, against
four downbeats (more or less), not eight, played with the left. Every clave
player I've ever seen on stage seems to be playing against four downbeats, if
you watch his feet.
Do you truly feel clave against eight downbeats? As a percussionist, am I
missing something if I don't?
-Mike Doran
>>
Mike, clave is a two-bar pattern. The rumbero is tapping half notes with his
feet. I know this is true, because in all my years of playing, I've never seen
a horn part, or piano or bass part written as though the clave were one bar. It
would be loaded up with so many sixteenth notes as to be unreadable. You're
feeling the pulse as a quarter note, but it's really a half note. It's also a
matter of semantics. You're still hearing the same pulse.
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Songo Man
major difference in performance. >>
Exactamuno. No difference. If yambu were reading written parts, with written
breaks, he'd get used to thinking of the clave as a two-bar pattern real, real,
quick. By the way, when we were in Havana and saw Rojitas, I sneaked up on the
stage and looked at the written parts. Those particular Cubans were using a two
bar clave, too.
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Yambu1
>feeling the pulse as a quarter note, but it's really a half note. It's also a
>matter of semantics. You're still hearing the same pulse.
>
>songoman
>
-Mike Doran
Yambu1
-Mike Doran
Bruce Ishikawa
>And I would agree that most cuban salsa employs a 2-3 clave.
>
Thanks, I'm not crazy. Now the question becomes why do many/most of the the
writers refer to 3-2 first and 2-3 like an afterthought???
- Bruce
Bruce Ishikawa
>The way clave was taught to me was, tap the 1,2,3,4 with your foot, and
clap
>the x's. Start slowly, and gradually increase to moderate speed. After lots
of
>practice ( do it while walking down the street), you'll understand clave
>against the 4/4 downbeat, and maybe even understand this discussion.
>
This is exactly what made it sink in for me. But here you go again with the
xooxooxoooxoxooo
How come I mostly hear
ooxoxoooxooxooxo on the music I listen to???
Listen to http://www.picadillo.com/cubanismollego.ram you can clearly hear
the clave being played on (surprise) claves. Now this sounds to me like two
followed by three. Am I hearing it correctly?
Unless of the five clave beats I'm hearing 2 and 3 then 4, 5 and 1, but this
doesn't seem to add up...
- Bruce
Bruce Ishikawa
(courier) shows stuff all lined up nicely. Variable (arial and Times)
allows a different horizontal spacing for a "W" than for a "I", so notation
is hard.
By filling in the blanks like this:
xooxooxo|ooxoxooo
There are no ambiguities.
Since you are a programmer, Dennis, I suspect that you use a fixed font.
That's all we had in the old line printer days, 80 characters and all
that...
- Bruce
--
Please visit Picadillo!
http://www.picadillo.com
The Starting Point for Salsa Surfers
El Punto de Partida a la Red Salsera
The web's largest collection of Latin Music
Listen online!
Dennis M. Reed "Califa" wrote in message <36A835DE...@home.com>...
>It look ok when you send it back? Would you send it as an original, I
>think you know what it should look like.
>
>What email program and computer are you using?
>
>Yambu1 wrote:
>>
>> >Does the
>> >following display correctly?
>> >
>> >1&2&3&4&|1&2&3&4&
>> >xooxooxo|ooxoxooo
>> >
>> No.
>>
>> -Mike Doran
>
Yambu1
>here you go again with the
>
>xooxooxoooxoxooo
>
>How come I mostly hear
>
>ooxoxoooxooxooxo on the music I listen to???
>
it is predominant in the music you listen to. There are historical reasons for
this, but I suppose it has to do with Western musical convention; namely, we
like rhythms to start on the one.
So we all learn clave the way you learned it; and if it feels right to reverse
it to suit the melody, then that's what we do.
Corollary question - I think clave cruzado is any clave, either 3-2 or 2-3,
which doesn't fit the melody, and ought to be reversed. True?
-Mike Doran
Clay Leander
Owch! and Arturo's story...
For lack of remembering what that smell actually was,
it finally occured to me that the odor smells like
a swamp-type wood stock, with a fine grain. I've
wondered if its' whatever is used for the finish (?)
-c
Songo Man
which doesn't fit the melody, and ought to be reversed. True?
>>
In part. It's when the percussion section, within itself, is not in agreement
with where the clave is, thus causing the conga slap and single click on the
heel of the bell not to occur together. Usually, it occurs for the reasons you
have described above; one guy hears the melody and plays the clave where he
thinks it belongs, and the other hears it differently. One of them is usually
wrong.
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Brian Lewis
number of different ways? If I tap my foot, I am most likely tapping on the
downbeats, but that might only be two taps in a four beat measure. Or are
downbeats simply the odd-numbered beats in a measure. Am I the only one or are
the definitions of downbeats and backbeats being used loosely in this discussion?
Someone help me, I am not musically oriented.
Thanks,
Brian
Yambu1 wrote:
> SongoMan wrote:
> >
> >...3-2 son clave would be:
> >
> >x= eighth note played
> >o= eight note rested
> >
> >xooxooxo/ooxoxooo
> > (meas. 1) (meas 2)
> >
> >Notice in measure 2 both hits are on the downbeat....
> >
> I can only think of clave as one measure of 16th notes, with just four
> downbeats instead of eight, in which case only the first and last hits are on
> the downbeat.
>
Yambu1
>This is beginning to get confusing. Can't you define downbeats and backbeats
>in a
>number of different ways? If I tap my foot, I am most likely tapping on the
>downbeats, but that might only be two taps in a four beat measure. Or are
>downbeats simply the odd-numbered beats in a measure. Am I the only one or
>are
>the definitions of downbeats and backbeats being used loosely in this
>discussion?
>
In the context of clave in 4/4, I used the term downbeats to mean the four-beat
pulse against which the clave is being played. In the other post you cite,I
think SongoMan used the same term to mean four beats to each measure of eighth
notes. For proper usage I would certainly defer to him.
-Mike Doran
5mentarios
--
"El toro mata compa're, el toro mata"
Ricardo Portal
Songo Man <song...@aol.com> wrote in article
>
> xooxooxo/ooxoxooo
> (meas. 1) (meas 2)
>
> Notice in measure 2 both hits are on the downbeat. This is consistent
through
> rumba OR son clave. It's the definative way to distinguish clave. the
first x
> in measure 2 is the backbeat. It coincides with the single click on the
heel of
Matthew Dubuque
Thanks for the nice anecdote.
It seems like a nice discussion has ensued, but my original point seems
unaddressed....
I was just commenting on the formal similarity between a 6/8 nanigo (not
a guaguanco) and a shortened, truncated clave...
Oh well...
Musically,
Matthew
HOW DO I MEASURE UP? Listen to the mix of Chucho Valdes, Anthony
Carillo and myself on "TUMBAO" coming in February 1999 to
http://www.picadillo.com/matthew
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
in 4/4 it would be as I wrote it.
Songo Man wrote:
>
> Ah! thanks, this is probably what Songoman was referring to! Does the
> following display correctly?
>
> 1&2&3&4&|1&2&3&4&
> xooxooxo|ooxoxooo
>
> Yambu1 wrote:
> >
> > Dennis wrote:
> >
> > >I find it much easier to understand when the patterns are presented
> with
> > >the notation:
> > >
> > >son clave
> > >1&2&3&4&|1&2&3&4&|
> > >x x x x x
> > >
> > Except that gets skewed in the transmission. On my screen the above notation
> > makes no sense. Let me try this. Son clave, in 16th notes:
> >
> > xooxooxoooxoxooo
> >
>
> Yeah, Dennis, that's what I saw, too. The notation is eight notes and not
> sixteenth notes, but other than that, Yambu is correct. It's the way it came up
> on my screen too
>
> songoman
> http://www.sabordc.com
--
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
pattern.
Songo Man wrote:
>
> All the fundamental rumba palito/cascara stick patterns that I know are
> variations of either rumba or son clave played with the right hand, against
> four downbeats (more or less), not eight, played with the left. Every clave
> player I've ever seen on stage seems to be playing against four downbeats, if
> you watch his feet.
>
> Do you truly feel clave against eight downbeats? As a percussionist, am I
> missing something if I don't?
>
> -Mike Doran
> >>
>
> Mike, clave is a two-bar pattern. The rumbero is tapping half notes with his
> feet. I know this is true, because in all my years of playing, I've never seen
> a horn part, or piano or bass part written as though the clave were one bar. It
> would be loaded up with so many sixteenth notes as to be unreadable. You're
> feeling the pulse as a quarter note, but it's really a half note. It's also a
> matter of semantics. You're still hearing the same pulse.
>
Kvetcher2
>here you go again with the
>
>xooxooxoooxoxooo
>
>How come I mostly hear
>
>ooxoxoooxooxooxo on the music I listen to???
Then Mike says:
Because that's what it is. It happens to be called reverse clave, even though
it is predominant in the music you listen to.
My opinion:
When I was first getting into this music 20 years ago, I consulted with my
friend Julian Gerstin, ethnomusicologist and conga player for local groups Zulu
Spear and Katoja. He insisted that son clave (for want of a better name) is
xooxooxoooxoxooo, starting on the one. The "reverso" pattern is the same
thing, just starting in the middle. It is NOT a different clave.
The different clave is rumba clave, where the third strike falls one eighth
note later. But let's not go there yet.
The essential thing for me is not whether you call it reverso or "start in the
middle". The key is to lock it in with the groove, as Songoman suggested
earlier. I use the second strike of the clave, the "bombo note", as my
reference point, for rumba, son, and conga/comparsa. In son or "salsa" the
bombo note on clave falls on the first note that's played on the lower-pitched
conga in the standard son/salsa ride ( what Roberto Borrell, in his infinite
capacity to mystify me, calls "marcha"). Am I making myself clear here?
And when the clave is not locked with the groove, especially when it is out of
synch with the conga patternm, then they HATE YOU because you are on the wrong
side, ie, cruzao.
I want to pose another question now: is 6/8 clave a third variation of clave,
or is it just 4/4 clave in a different "feel"? I'm inclined to say it is
different, because we can write it differently;
xoxooxoxoxoo
and because it locks precisely with the 6/8 bell, which seems a six thing.
And finally I am compelled to repeat my discovery of many years ago, when,
dazed and confused and staring at the piano keyboard, I suddenly saw that the
6/8 bell pattern is reproduced there. Starting at middle C, read the white
notes as the 7 strikes of the pattern, and the black notes as the 5 rests, and
there it is, in black and white, And if that weren't enuf, start at C#, count
the black notes as strikes, the whites as rests, you have 6/8 clave, at no
additional charge!
I called Julian Gerstin to tell him, and he interrupted me. Oh, 6/8 bell and
keyboard layout is the same. EVERYBODY knows that.
Damn, deflated again. The worst thing is that I have a rotten flu and missed
the Thursday hit. Hope I can make the Sunday rumba at La Pain-ya.
Salu2--
Felipe (Philip Pasmanick)
rumba clave: xooxoooxooxoxooo
son clave: xooxooxoooxoxooo
My decima article:
http://ntama.uni-mainz.de/~ntama/articles/pasmanick/
ZIP archive as:
Kvetcher2
- Bruce
We cannot vouch for your sanity one way or the other. But I think the reason
that 2-3 or reverso clave (I am assuming that they are the same commonly heard
phenomenon) is treated as an afterthough, even though it is so widely used, is
because it is just a sort of variation of the basic xooxooxoIooxoxooo 3-2
pattern, or as I put it in a post a few min. ago, 2-3 is just 3-2 started in
the middle.
What I want to know is, why does the same thread get broken up and appear under
the same title several times? I shot my wad on clave on the last post, and
then along comes another part of the discussion, arbitrarily separated from the
rest.
Yambu1
>I want to pose another question now: is 6/8 clave a third variation of
>clave,
>or is it just 4/4 clave in a different "feel"? I'm inclined to say it is
>different, because we can write it differently;
>xoxooxoxoxoo
>and because it locks precisely with the 6/8 bell, which seems a six thing.
>
This question drove me nuts for a long time. True to my pedantic nature, I
wound up graphing clave in both signatures, then synthesizing them by factoring
in the least common divider for 12 and 16 beats (48). That gave me some
gorgeous-looking charts, but not much enlightenment.
Then I hit upon the empirical method: I would play rumba clave on wood in 4/4,
while simultaneously my teacher would play it on bell in 6/8. We would record
it, and then see whether they matched in every respect. But before we could
finish we got too drunk.
But with Bobby Sanabria's help on his video, I am now confident that either
clave pattern can be played against the 6/8 bell. And while it can be notated
differently, the clave pattern is the same. The difference comes in the feel,
the feel you choose to give it.
I think this brings us to the essence of our music. What happened when Africa
met Spain? When flamenco met bembe? I speculate that when European 4/4 ran up
against African 6/8, the resultant unifier was our clave, which can express
either feel simultaneously. Just listen to any rumba columbia.
-Mike Doran
Yambu1
>s 6/8 clave a third variation of clave,
>or is it just 4/4 clave in a different "feel"? I'm inclined to say it is
>different, because we can write it differently;
>xoxooxoxoxoo
>and because it locks precisely with the 6/8 bell, which seems a six thing.
>
I forgot to mention one other thing, which I'm sure you already know: add one
more hit to your notation above and you're back to the
bembe bell;
xoxoxxoxoxoo
Claveheads like me can soak their sticks at www.bembe.com/drclave.html
-Mike Doran
Wallice
> My understanding is that in cut time, the clave is a one measure
> pattern.
Ohhhh, I don't think soooooo.... I think cut time is more of an artificial
way of keeping count. Instead of going with a fast, we just go to a 2-count
PER BAR. Therefore clave stays spread over both bars (its feel becomes 200%
of the original (not 50%). My two cents...
--
Wallice
http://ArsNova1.com - Your Texas Afro-Latin Music Connection
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
later say something to the effect that 2-3 is more common in today's
music.
Maybe in the past most tunes were 3-2?
Bruce Ishikawa wrote:
>
> >
> >And I would agree that most cuban salsa employs a 2-3 clave.
> >
>
> Thanks, I'm not crazy. Now the question becomes why do many/most of the the
> writers refer to 3-2 first and 2-3 like an afterthought???
>
> - Bruce
--
Songo Man
We cannot vouch for your sanity one way or the other. But I think the reason
that 2-3 or reverso clave (I am assuming that they are the same commonly heard
phenomenon) is treated as an afterthough, even though it is so widely used, is
because it is just a sort of variation of the basic xooxooxoIooxoxooo 3-2
pattern, or as I put it in a post a few min. ago, 2-3 is just 3-2 started in
Exactly. 3-2, 2-3, what's the difference? It's just where you start.
Incidental, at best.
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Songo Man
the Thursday hit. Hope I can make the Sunday rumba at La Pain-ya.
Salu2-->>
I'm suffering right there with you, man. This is the worst Flu I've ever had.
I've been flat out for two days.
I liked your post, BTW.
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Songo Man
actual NOTES, instead of all these x's and o's. Some of these clave
illustrations look remarkably similar to the Denver Broncos "prevent" defense.
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Songo Man
My understanding is that in cut time, the clave is a one measure
pattern.
>>
See, the thing is, for you percussionists, cut time vs 4/4 time is simply a
matter of what note value you assign the pulse you're hearing. It makes no
difference in the sound produced. But for us guys that have to READ, there is a
profound difference between 4/4 and cut time. If you insist on cut time, then
you have to cram twice as many notes into a measure; in so doing, you must
HALVE the value of each note, resulting in lots of 16th notes. And 16th notes,
no matter who you are, are more difficult to read than 8th's. that's why, no
matter what came about traditionally, the gravitation toward writing in 4/4 has
come about. If you're paying a studio by the hour, you want that shit as easy
to read as possible. In all my years of playing, I don't think I've EVER seen a
moderate to fast tempo tune written out in cut time. Which means the clave MUST
consume two bars.
One more thing: If you're thinking in cut time, and you want to switch from 3-2
to 2-3, isn't it necessary to have a bar of 2/4 time to do it? (More
accurately, if in cut time, also known as 2/2 time, you'd need a bar of 1/2).
this further complicates things.
For all practical purposes, this music is written in 4/4 time, all the time.
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Songo Man
way of keeping count. Instead of going with a fast, we just go to a 2-count
PER BAR. Therefore clave stays spread over both bars (its feel becomes 200%
of the original (not 50%). My two cents...>>
Wallice:
Put a fast tempo salsa on and listen to it. Now, watch the foot you're
tapping...I guarantee you it's tapping HALF notes. What kind of spazz taps
every quarter note with his foot? It's not the pulse you hear; what you hear
is:
ooxoxooo/xooxooxo
t t t t
t= foot tap.
But if the percussionist counts each tap as a quarter note instead of a half
note, you have de facto cut time. Works for him, cuz he can't read music
anyway.
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
participant's question) that although we have been through this before
maybe it was time to do it again. I think that maybe the NG might want
to gather up the varied opinions and discussions in one place to which a
newcomer can be pointed.
I see more agreement than disagreement in the discussions but the
variety of notations used to describe the concepts and the various
backgrounds of the NGers (often including their teachers' opinions)
seems to confuse the basic concepts.
We did discuss whether or not there is really a 2-3 clave in the past
and Changuito was quoted as saying all clave is 3-2 but I pointed out
that even in his book there is an example of 2-3 (I discussed it with
Chuck Silverman and he said he transcribed what Changuito said/did).
Basically, I think it is a mote point because in real life, at least in
the U.S., band leaders and arrangers frequently state that a tune is 2-3
or 3-2.
Additionally, I have not seen a chart (in any of the bands I have worked
with over many years) written in cut time (they are always 4/4 except of
6/8 or other time signatures).
Kvetcher2 wrote:
>
> Bruce wrote:
>
> >And I would agree that most cuban salsa employs a 2-3 clave.
> >
>
> Thanks, I'm not crazy. Now the question becomes why do many/most of the the
> writers refer to 3-2 first and 2-3 like an afterthought???
>
> - Bruce
>
> We cannot vouch for your sanity one way or the other. But I think the reason
> that 2-3 or reverso clave (I am assuming that they are the same commonly heard
> phenomenon) is treated as an afterthough, even though it is so widely used, is
> because it is just a sort of variation of the basic xooxooxoIooxoxooo 3-2
> pattern, or as I put it in a post a few min. ago, 2-3 is just 3-2 started in
> the middle.
>
> What I want to know is, why does the same thread get broken up and appear under
> the same title several times? I shot my wad on clave on the last post, and
> then along comes another part of the discussion, arbitrarily separated from the
> rest.
>
> Salu2--
>
> Felipe (Philip Pasmanick)
>
> rumba clave: xooxoooxooxoxooo
> son clave: xooxooxoooxoxooo
>
> My decima article:
>
> http://ntama.uni-mainz.de/~ntama/articles/pasmanick/
>
> ZIP archive as:
>
> http://ntama.uni-mainz.de/~pseelig/pasmanick-0.1.zip
--
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
Maybe it could be called the "Clave Chronicles".
"Dennis M. Reed \"Califa\"" wrote:
>
> ... I think that maybe the NG might want to gather up the varied opinions and > discussions in one place to which a newcomer can be pointed.
Kvetcher2
I forgot to mention one other thing, which I'm sure you already know: add one
more hit to your notation above and you're back to the
bembe bell;
xoxoxxoxoxoo
______
I would add one more hit to your pattern (that is, 2 more than clave), the lst
eighth note, to write 6/8 bell ("short bell")
xoxoxxoxoxox
Kvetcher2
I was just commenting on the formal similarity between a 6/8 nanigo (not
a guaguanco) and a shortened, truncated clave
_____
OK, lets go there. Is nanigo ( I assume w/ tildes over the "n"s) the same as
abakwa? I have a real hard time w/ abakwa clave, I must admit.
Yambu1
>
>
I've played rumba clave and 6/8 bell to abakwa, and also a rapid, repeating
3-stroke bell pattern, starting on the one. What does your "abakwa clave" look
like?
-Mike Doran
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
describe abakuá which they say emanates from the "Abakuá Societies".
Maybe there are also "Ñañigo Societies" too and maybe some of the
earlier Cuban percussionists belonged to or used rhythms derived from
the "Ñañigos Societies"? Or maybe the terms mean the same thing?
It is interesting that we NGers have referred to "clave" as being 3-2 or
2-3 and describe how it can overlay 6/8, etc.
In Velázquez "Spanish and English Languages", "clave" is defined as
follows: "1. (Arch.) Keystone of an arch. "Echar la clave", (Met.) To
close a speech, to terminate an affair. 2. Key to any work or writing.
3. In music, clef. 4. Chime or concord of bells. 5. (Obs.) Key.".
The various books show son, rumba, and 6/8 claves as distinct patterns.
They do not overlay the 2/4 and 4/4 son claves on the 6/8 pattern, i.e.,
the 6/8 clave is a distinct pattern even when they show 6/6 as having a
two beat feeling or a three feeling.
I suggest that the term "key" is what we are really talking about and
that the "key" varies according to the music involved.
--
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
6/8 |xoxoxx|oxoxox|
3/4 |xoxoxx|oxoxox|
6/8 |xoxoxo|oxoxoo| which she calls "6/8 son clave"!
She also says and displays what she calls "6/8 in 2-3 direction" (which
I think is strange as there is no measure which contains just two
"clicks":
6/8 |oxoxox|xoxoxx|
She goes on to describe "another clave pattern derived from 6/8 clave is
also found in sacred African music..specifically in the music of the
Abakuá tradition":
6/8 |xoxoox|oxoxoo| which she calls rumba clave and says is used in
rumba columbia
4/4 |xooxooox|ooxoxooo| which she calls rumba clave
Finally, she says "Unlike son clave, rumba clave was not as predominant
in popular music until the mid 1960's, when it eventually replaced the
son clave in most styles of rumba" (if this is true, no wonder that I
never heard of "rumba clave" in the 1960s! maybe I was not just
ignorant!).
Yambu1 wrote:
>
> >I have a real hard time w/ abakwa clave, I must admit.
> >
> >Felipe
> >
> I've played rumba clave and 6/8 bell to abakwa, and also a rapid, repeating
> 3-stroke bell pattern, starting on the one. What does your "abakwa clave" look
> like?
> -Mike Doran
--
Yambu1
>also found in sacred African music..specifically in the music of the
>Abakuá tradition":
>
>6/8 |xoxoox|oxoxoo| which she calls rumba clave and says is used in
>rumba columbia
>
between it and 4/4 clave, as to note placement, and neither does Sanabria (per
his tape). But of course the feels are different. And when you compare these
4/4 and 6/8 notations, the fourth note in 6/8 does appear to come a tad
earlier. If anyone has the pro version of the Drumwizard software, they could
program these patterns to run one on top of the other, and that would reveal
any difference.
>Finally, she says "Unlike son clave, rumba clave was not as predominant
>in popular music until the mid 1960's, when it eventually replaced the
>son clave in most styles of rumba"
>
Now that is interesting. I hope Marcané will comment. Thanks, Dennis. I gotta
get that book.
-Mike Doran
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
I began entering Mauleón's examples into Cakewalk some time ago and
never finished (I gotta get back to it!).
--
Wallice
just keep the "fast" 4-count and ignore that slash through the "C" meter.
It works for me.
> Put a fast tempo salsa on and listen to it. Now, watch the foot you're
Orlando Fiol
The rumba used to be played with the segundo's two main beats falling on
the 3 side of the clave. It kinda makes more sense this way, but it
offers little counterpoint with the quinto. So, to give the quinto some
room, the segundo was flipped over on the other side of the clave.
Nonetheless, the quinto still employs the 3/2 clave for its phrasing and
you'll never hear a clave for a rumba start anywhere else but on the 3
side.
Peace,
Orlando
Orlando Fiol
You're not mishearing anything. Most salsa montunos end up being in
"2/3" clave, that is that they have their strong orientation toward the
second half of the clave. But, it is the music that starts on that half,
not the clave itself.
Peace,
Orlando
Orlando Fiol
the two tones of the tumbadora not on the 3 side, as the tumba does, but
on the 2 side. Many bass players and congueros do this, but still many
other congueros play their tumbas on the 2 side of the clave, which
doesn't work very well IMO.
Peace,
Orlando
Orlando Fiol
People refer to 2/3 as an afterthought because it is. there is 2/3 music
but not 2/3 clave. The concept of 2/3 clave was developed so that the
main bars of an arrangement wouldn't always fall on odd bar numbers.
For, if the music begins on the 2 side of the clave and you alocate the
first bar for the 3 side of the clave which has no music, all your bar
numbers will begin from bar 2 instead of bar 1. In fact, in terms of
clave, this is the right way to present the music, but it's downright
confusing for some players to read.
Peace,
Orlando
Orlando Fiol
Actually, my great grandfather on my mother's side was Cubahn, so that
makes me a grand total of 1/8 Cuban. Not much to qualify.
Peace,
Orlando
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
with the bass on the dum-dum of the Dum-dum-dum-Dum part of the
guaguanco and the new way reversed it, at least in band music!
--
Orlando Fiol
In 4/4, 2/4 or 2/2 time, the downbeats are the odd numbered beats. the
upbeats or backbeats are the even ones.
Peace,
Orlando
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
conductor lead, especially with a baton, I think the 1 and 2 beats are
downward motions and the & beats are upward motions. Am I wrong about
this or is it simply the same terms being used to describe different
musical concepts?
--
Orlando Fiol
> When I was first getting into this music 20 years ago, I consulted with my
> friend Julian Gerstin, ethnomusicologist and conga player for local groups Zulu
> Spear and Katoja. He insisted that son clave (for want of a better name) is
> xooxooxoooxoxooo, starting on the one. The "reverso" pattern is the same
> thing, just starting in the middle. It is NOT a different clave.
You're absolutely right.
> The different clave is rumba clave, where the third strike falls one eighth
> note later. But let's not go there yet.
Both the rumba and son claves are simplifications of the 6 or 12/8
clave. They all have less beats, but don't add any beats that aren't
present in the longer clave.
> The essential thing for me is not whether you call it reverso or "start in the
> middle". The key is to lock it in with the groove, as Songoman suggested
> earlier. I use the second strike of the clave, the "bombo note", as my
> reference point, for rumba, son, and conga/comparsa. In son or "salsa" the
> bombo note on clave falls on the first note that's played on the lower-pitched
> conga in the standard son/salsa ride ( what Roberto Borrell, in his infinite
> capacity to mystify me, calls "marcha"). Am I making myself clear here?
Keep teachin', brotha! The marcha is merely the steady stream of eighth
notes in common notation that charactarize the tumbao on the conga or the
pattern of maracas.
> I want to pose another question now: is 6/8 clave a third variation of clave,
> or is it just 4/4 clave in a different "feel"? I'm inclined to say it is
> different, because we can write it differently;
> xoxooxoxoxoo
> and because it locks precisely with the 6/8 bell, which seems a six thing.
The 6/8 or 12/8 is the mother of all claves. all claves without
exceptions are reductions of the 6/8 or 12/8 clave.
> And finally I am compelled to repeat my discovery of many years ago, when,
> dazed and confused and staring at the piano keyboard, I suddenly saw that the
> 6/8 bell pattern is reproduced there. Starting at middle C, read the white
> notes as the 7 strikes of the pattern, and the black notes as the 5 rests, and
> there it is, in black and white, And if that weren't enuf, start at C#, count
> the black notes as strikes, the whites as rests, you have 6/8 clave, at no
> additional charge!
True, but it only works going up from C, not coming down.
Orlando
Songo Man
> upbeats or backbeats are the even ones.
>
> Peace,
> Orlando>>
I beg to differ. Downbeats are those note values which are asssigned one beat.
The bottom part of the time signature. In 4/4, a quarter note is assigned one
beat. So any quarter note, 1,2,3, or 4 within a measure is a downbeat.
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Songo Man
People refer to 2/3 as an afterthought because it is. there is 2/3 music
but not 2/3 clave.>>
Semantics, semantics, semantics. There IS such a thing as a two-three clave. If
it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it's a duck.
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Kvetcher2
>The 6/8 or 12/8 is the mother of all claves. all claves without
>exceptions are reductions of the 6/8 or 12/8 clave.
____
I assume that you are referring to what I call the 6/8 bell (short pattern):
xoxoxxoxoxox. (I noticed that in Dennis's quote Rebeccca Mauleon called this
7-stroke pattern "clave" also.)
I think that THIS pattern comes from Africa, and can be heard in African
folkloric recordings that are not Cuban-influenced.
And it was in Cuba that the various clave patterns we know and love were
derived from the mother pattern. ?Que no?
Also, what of the "long bell" [xoxoxoxxoxox]. I hear this in African music
but it sounds wrong to me when applied in Cuban music. Any comments?
Songo Man
not the clave itself.>>
If the first bar of the tune has the "two" part of the clave in it, and the
second has the "three" part, then the clave starts on the "two" half.
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Mary Kent
MK
In article <MPG.111550635...@news1.bway.net>, Orlando Fiol
<fi...@bway.net> wrote:
--
VISIT THE SALSA TALKS WEBSITE! http://www.digido.com/salsatalks.html
If the rhythm is cookin', if the bottom half of your body starts jumpin'
because you have the urge to dance, there's a good possibility you're listening
to Salsa music!
--Mary Kent, photographer, writer, graphic artist of Digital Domain.
JazzBuffalo
--
The JazzBuffalo a.k.a. Luis Moreno
"El son es lo mas sublime pare el alma divertir,
se debía de morir quien por bueno no lo estime."
-Ignacio Piñeiro
Songo Man
My father's mother was Cuban. I think that makes me 1/4 Cuban.
MK>>
Both my Mother in law and Father in law are 100% Cuban. Which makes
me.....Greek.
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
--
Songo Man
Songo, you are Cuban by friction... ;-)>>\
Dude, you don't fuckin' know the HALF of it...
songoman
http://www.sabordc.com
Wallice
Mary Kent <mary...@digido.com> wrote
> My father's mother was Cuban. I think that makes me 1/4 Cuban.
rc...@fitnessmagazine.com
kvet...@aol.com (Kvetcher2) wrote:
>
>
> The essential thing for me is not whether you call it reverso or "start in the
> middle". The key is to lock it in with the groove, as Songoman suggested
> earlier. I use the second strike of the clave, the "bombo note", as my
> reference point, for rumba, son, and conga/comparsa. In son or "salsa" the
> bombo note on clave falls on the first note that's played on the lower-pitched
> conga in the standard son/salsa ride ( what Roberto Borrell, in his infinite
> capacity to mystify me, calls "marcha"). Am I making myself clear here?
>
> synch with the conga patternm, then they HATE YOU because you are on the wrong
> side, ie, cruzao.
>
I've been following this whole clave thread (as I did the last time around)
and as a non-musician, this makes the most sense to me when trying to explain
clave cruzao. The thing is, I'm having trouble hearing it in my head right
now. It would be great if we could have an audio demonstration on the web
where we could listen to clave in all it's variations, including clave
cruzao. Perhaps something like Matthew's demonstration of playing one beat
behind.
rey cruz
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Bruce Ishikawa
- Bruce
--
Please visit Picadillo!
http://www.picadillo.com
The Starting Point for Salsa Surfers
El Punto de Partida a la Red Salsera
The web's largest collection of Latin Music
Listen online!
Orlando Fiol wrote in message ...
>Dear Steve,
>
>Actually, my great grandfather on my mother's side was Cubahn, so that
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
--
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
Seriously, if we could get a "Clave Chronicles" archive, audio samples
might be appropriate.
--
MARCANE
> > Actually, my great grandfather on my mother's side was Cubahn, so that
> > makes me a grand total of 1/8 Cuban.>>>
In the South, if you were 1/8th Black, you would be labeled an octaroon and you
would hang on a tree right next to a full-blooded African!
Marcané is Arturo Gómez at...wdna@paradise.net
Yo si son de la loma pero estoy en el llano rajando la leña
Música es la mejor medicina
La verdad es la verdad....Más mentiras no quiero
It's OK to think, no one has to know
Kaysee
MARCANE wrote in message <19990125184634...@ng111.aol.com>...
Kaysee
French-trained doctor, was forced to play and teach piano in his home town
of New Orleans instead of doctoring - because he was black.
Makes you understand why New Orleans became a blues and jazz centre!
Bong...@webtv.net
Musically,
Matthew
HOW DO I MEASURE UP? Listen to the mix of Chucho Valdes, Anthony
Carillo and myself coming in February 1999 to www.picadillo.com/matthew
and let me know!
Bong...@webtv.net
I'm often misinterpreted by rumberos who view Cuban music through a
rumba prism.
I specialize in son (which is NOT rumba yambu, rumba guaguanco, or rumba
columbia).
And these rumberos, all nice people, together with the justifiably
Afro-centric folks, tend to overlook one of the principal roots of Cuban
son in their analysis. And it hampers their son playing in a big way.
It has little effect on their rumba playing.
For a complete understanding of son montuno, {traditions are allowed to
flourish during the montuno portion}, one must recall that flamenco
guitar had a very strong influence in the development of the genre.
The guitarra is not a laud. Africans did not bring the guitarra to
Cuba. The Spanish butchers did.
Traditional son is typically played with two guitars, a bass, and one
set of bongoes. Playing guaguanco on a conga is a different breed. And
son clave is necessarily more subtle.
Flamenco guitar is FULL of 32nd notes, 64th notes and trills and Middle
Eastern rhythms (via the Moroccans who were Africans but prayed to
MECCA). Mecca is in Saudi Arabia and is NOT Dahomey. And Flamenco
guitar is FULL of 5/4 and 7/4, 6/4, and 6/8 Moorish source material.
And to play son clave correctly, you have to understand this flamenco
influence and allow for it. The best son clave is played a nanosecond
off of the beat if you counted it in quarter-notes.
If anybody wishes to learn more about this, they can ask a master such
as Armando or Mongo, or listen to the clave player of Sierra Maestra,
coming soon to a club near you.
The difference between son clave and rumba is FAR greater than just
whether it is 3-2 or 2-3. The claves in son derive their personality
substantially from flamenco castanets, played with a Moorish flair..
To understand son clave enough so that the old men dance to you in
Santiago, you need to take off the rumba goggles.
Musically,
Matthew
HOW DO I MEASURE UP? Listen to the mix of Chucho Valdes, Anthony
Carillo and myself coming later in the month of February 1999 to
bones...@hotmail.com
Bong...@webtv.net wrote:
> RE: CLAVE AND 6/8
>
> I'm often misinterpreted by rumberos who view Cuban music through a
> rumba prism.
<snip the rest>
But _all_ clave comes from 6/8 bell. Hence the Dahomey, Yoruba, Congo
connection.
Curtis
Bong...@webtv.net
did not come from the Congo. It is not an African laud. It did not
arrive in Cuba intact from Yoruban Santeria from Northern Nigeria.
It came from Spain, more specifically from Cordoba in southern Spain.
And these Spanish immigrants, with their flamenco roots, clearly had an
influence on Cuban musicians at the turn of the century.
This is why the discriminaing son bongo player solos off of 7/8 and 5/8
rhythms as well as the more traditional ones.
Many of these rhythms came to Andalucian Spain from the Iranians. The
Persians, NOT the Arabs.
Paco de Lucia, a flamenco guitar player of paramount historical
importance, has an album entitled Zyriab. Listen to the title cut. Or
better still, listen to "Zyriab" performed live with tablas on "Paco de
Lucia & Sextet Live in America".
What the liner notes don't tell you is that Zyriab ("the Blackbird")
revolutionized Spanish music in 822 AD by adding a fifth string to a
laud and making the strings out of gut. Indeed this phenomenal Persian
brought a catalog of 10,000 songs from Baghdad, where he fled because of
discrimination from the Arabs. (Arabs and Persians go WAY
back.....Sunni v. Shia type of thing....) Persian music is CHOCK full
of 5/8 and 7/8.
And it seems pretty clear that Zyriab was the father of flamenco.
That's a lot of damn tunes to bring with you to play with your new
instrument called a "guitarra" that you invented...
So when the Arabs and their brethren were expelled from Andalucia in
1492, they fled to Morocco, Tunisia, and Algeria, and the Canary
Islands, which is where Armando Peraza (the Peraza family helped build
the Nina, Pinta, and the Santa Maria for Columbus on the islands) and
Lecuona (one of the great piano composers of the world) hail from, and
possibly Cachao as well.
And from there, the guitarra came to Cuba.
Sources:
1. Conversations with Maestro Armando Peraza, flamenco student of Paco
de Lucia and noted ethnomusicologist.
2. Morgan, Andy, "Thursday Night Fever: Algeria's Happiest Hour" in
World Music: The Rough Guide.
3. Powell, K. Notes to "Heat of the Sun" by Strunz & Farah.
4. "Zyriab" from "Live in America" by Paco de Lucia.
5. "Lo Mejor de mi Vida" Compay Segundo, liner notes.
JazzBuffalo
I understand this to mean that Peraza studies(ed) flamenco
with Paco, is that correct? If so that is facinating and I
would really love to hear more about it.
Bong...@webtv.net wrote:
> 1. Conversations with Maestro Armando Peraza, flamenco student of Paco
> de Lucia and noted ethnomusicologist.
--
Bong...@webtv.net
I hope there are further Peraza/de Lucia collaborations in the future.
Paco lives in the Yucatan and Armando will be going there......
Bong...@webtv.net
What proof do you have of that? How can you assure me that this is true
of rumba clave?
I heard some very old Andalusian rhythm lines this morning that REALLY
sounded like a precursor to son clave. Played by Julian Bream. Could
you please cite your authority. Substantial portions of son rhythmic
motifs came from Spain.
Listen to 'En el Silencio de la noche" by Sierra Maestra (Track 7 of the
Tibiri Tabara CD). The way OLD son was played. There is so much going
on with the way clave is played on that AUTHENTIC tune that it blows
simplistic Anglo clave mentalities out of the water.
And obviously there are 16th notes implied in the way this piece is
played. It's MUCH more subtle than Anglo tablature reflects.
Take off the rumba goggles Curtis.
JazzBuffalo
Source: Converstion with Matthew Master of the elliptic
answer :-)
Dennis, did you meet this Armando Peraza character when you
were down there? ;-)
Bong...@webtv.net wrote:
>
> JazzBuffalo-
>
> I hope there are further Peraza/de Lucia collaborations in the future.
> Paco lives in the Yucatan and Armando will be going there......
>
> Musically,
>
> Matthew
>
> HOW DO I MEASURE UP? Listen to the mix of Chucho Valdes, Anthony
> Carillo and myself coming later in the month of February 1999 to
> www.picadillo.com/matthew and let me know!
--
Bong...@webtv.net
JazzBuffalo-
There's a LOT of people in this NG, including some lurkers who would
like Armando to bend over and take his punishment like a man. As such,
more discretion is appropriate on my part.
I really enjoy your posts to the NG and your substantial contributions
to the group. I've been so busy lately, but I really enjoyed the
Brubeck article and there was one I read today to that was way cool.
Thanks again.
Feel free to email me privately, and I'll be happy to be less elliptic.
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
my question make any sense?)?
Bong...@webtv.net wrote:
>
> Curtis-
>
> What proof do you have of that? How can you assure me that this is true
> of rumba clave?
>
> I heard some very old Andalusian rhythm lines this morning that REALLY
> sounded like a precursor to son clave. Played by Julian Bream. Could
> you please cite your authority. Substantial portions of son rhythmic
> motifs came from Spain.
>
> Listen to 'En el Silencio de la noche" by Sierra Maestra (Track 7 of the
> Tibiri Tabara CD). The way OLD son was played. There is so much going
> on with the way clave is played on that AUTHENTIC tune that it blows
> simplistic Anglo clave mentalities out of the water.
>
> And obviously there are 16th notes implied in the way this piece is
> played. It's MUCH more subtle than Anglo tablature reflects.
>
> Take off the rumba goggles Curtis.
>
> Musically,
>
> Matthew
>
> HOW DO I MEASURE UP? Listen to the mix of Chucho Valdes, Anthony
> Carillo and myself coming later in the month of February 1999 to
> www.picadillo.com/matthew and let me know!
--