What is a "double-e"?
bardo
lyrics the other day (http://arts.ucsc.edu/gdead/agdl/china.html) and
there was much discussion about it, but no definitive answer.
That page is discussing its use in the Grateful Dead song China Cat
Sunflower (lyrics by Robert Hunter), and it might not actually be
referring to anything train-related, but there is also mention of the
term being used in a Bob Dylan song (It Takes a Lot to Laugh, It Takes a
Train to Cry) and a Warren Zevon song (Poor Poor Pitiful Me), which are
both definitely references to trains.
The Dead lyric is:
A leaf of all colors plays
a golden string fiddle
to a double-e waterfall over my back
Dylan lyric (full lyrics at:
http://orad.dent.kyushu-u.ac.jp/dylan/ittakeal.html):
Don't the brakeman look good, mama,
Flagging down the "Double E"?
Zevon lyric (full lyrics at
http://www.lyrics.jp/lyrics/W000600010011.asp):
"Laid my head on the railroad track, waitin' for the Double E.
But the railroad don't run no more. Poor, poor pitiful me."
An abbreviated review of possible meanings from the above mentioned
web-page:
* a type of train, probably standing for the Double Express--therefore,
a fast train
* Might also be a shortened version of "Double-Ender," defined in Rail
Talk as "a steam locomotive built to run equally well in either
direction. It had two boilers and a central cab and firebox."
* could mean either that a Double E is a double-locomotive
diesel-electric powered train, or that it is a reference to the E2 model
built by EMD.
* A railroad buff once told me that a very popular train guage in the
West of the 1880s was a Double E Gauge. (fuller explanation below,
tying it in with the waterfall portion of the Dead lyric)
* double-e simply means a train powered by two EMD E series locos
So, which is it? Or is it any of them? Can anyone here explain it?
Here is a more complete recounting of the "Double E Gauge" theory,
abbreviated above:
We all know Hunter is mightily interested in the Old West. A railroad
buff once told me that a very popular train guage in the West of the
1880s was a Double E Guage. All trains of the period had steam engines.
The boiler for those engines was stoked by a fireman. It was a hot job.
Especially during the summer. Every once in a while, the train would
stop at a water tower, to refill the water holding tank for the boiler.
The mechanism for the refill involved a boom attached to a water tower.
A hose dangled from the end of the boom, to provide some direction to
the water. The hot sweaty fireman would swing the boom over the opening
for the holding tank, pull the cord and let the water pour down. When
the tank was full, he would close the valve, and swing the boom back out
of the way.
My thought is that sometimes a fireman would pause, pull the cord for a
moment, and let the water cascade over him, providing great pleasure. As
Jerry said "All the golden yummies, for SECONDS at a time!" That water
cascading from the train water tower sure seems like a "Double-E
waterfall over my back" to me :)
Audi McAvoy
Ever since I was a kid I said, "when I grow up I'm going to be an engineer."
The irony is that instead of "driving trains" I'm "driving transistors!"
- Audi
"You may be an engineer if you have no life -- and you can PROVE it
mathematically."
bardo
> EE = "Electrical Engineer"
>
> Ever since I was a kid I said, "when I grow up I'm going to be an engineer."
> The irony is that instead of "driving trains" I'm "driving transistors!"
>
You're hilarious (sarcasm).
Sure, it also could also be a reference to EE Savings bonds, but that doesn't
really seem applicable.
David Winter
double heading a streamliner/express would come to mind. E units were the 6
axle, twin-engined EMD A1A-A1A GM-nosed carbody (sometimes called
streamliner) locos used for passenger work. E9s were the last of the line
IIRC, with 2 x 1425hp (gross) 12-cylinder Rootes-blown 2 stroke 567 engines.
What I haven't figured yet is what the E-models used for traction motors to
handle 5-600hp each when the F and GPs were running on 375-450hp per axle.
David Winter
Armadale
Western Australia
"bardo" <ba...@no.com> wrote in message news:3D6E2A1C...@no.com...
:
Jon Miller
was the typical 4 years degree EE=Electrical Engineer and the other was EE=
Electronic Engineer. The Electronic Engineer was what we called a lazy PhD,
no thesis required but still a degree after their Masters. Anyone remember
those?
Steve Caple
> use of the term "double-e" in song lyrics
The Dylan and Zevon lyrics seem definitely railroad oriented - the Garcia
reference is a real stretch.
There IS an "Evangeline Express", but up in Canada , and it seems relatively
recent. But perhaps some historians of southern railroads will know if
there was ever such running down to Louisiana from anywhere.
--
Steve
"Let the 4:19 soothe your weary mind."
Sam Yorko
Be careful. Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo, California, used to give out a
bachelor level Electronic Engineering degree (which is what most people
consider a BSEE), as well as a bachelor level Electrical Engineering
degree (which involved, well, electrical stuff: power systems, dams,
generators, transmission lines and such). However, the former was BSEL,
while the latter was BSEE. Unfortunately, a few years ago, they
combined the two into a single BSEE degree, which means that not only do
I have to educate non-Cal Poly people as to what my BSEL is, I now have
to teach new Cal Poly grads.
Sam
Daniel A. Mitchell
absorb their full rating at high speeds. At the lower speed they quickly
overheated. Thus E-units could not 'lug' for any prolonged length of
time.
This problem was made worse by the low-ratio high-speed gearing used in
the E-units. Later, some E-units were regeared for lower speed service
in stack trains and such ... but they were still no 'luggers'.
Complicating matters was that the higher power per driven axle (still
only four) caused the E-units to be slippery ... they carried little if
any more weight on the drivers than an F unit.
For these reasons, E-units were poor performers in mountainous regions,
and many railroads initially trying them switched (back in some cases)
to passenger 'F' units (AT&SF and GN for two).
In flat country at high speeds the E-units were good performers.
Dan Mitchell
==========
Jon Miller
You are talking 4 year degrees and I am talking, what 6/7 years. These
"degrees" were the equ. of PhD's but I don't remember the schools. Stanford
maybe, I just don't remember it was long ago. I do know at work they were
considered the same as a PhD!
Froggy
wrote:
>For these reasons, E-units were poor performers in mountainous regions,
>and many railroads initially trying them switched (back in some cases)
>to passenger 'F' units (AT&SF and GN for two).
>
>In flat country at high speeds the E-units were good performers.
They were OK on light passenger trains, IF you had an engineer that liked E units. I
never did like them and I never got any fun out of running them. Too light, geared
too high and no pulling power. There is precious little flat country in the USA,
even in the Southeast. Even on the Gulf Coast, for that matter. Flatter than Montana
or Colorado perhaps, but 2% is 2% everywhere. An E unit with a 600 ton train on a 2%
grade is like trying to swim with a 25 pound rock tied to your belly.
Fergit it.
You might do it for a little bit, but not for very long.
But, they were popular with many railroads, including my employer as well. Es were
high maintenance compared to Fs and GPs. They consumed wheels, traction motors and
MGs at a much greater rate than their more robust siblings. I cannot begin to tell
here, how many string bands I have seen replaced on E units over the years, but it is
a large number. The string band is damaged when the main generator arcs over. After
a time, the dielectric value is reduced and it has to come out. Very expensive.
Never saw too many string bands with other EMDs, mostly just the Es. It comes from
pulling high amperage as a result of the close-ratio, high speed gearing. Starting
an E unit was always like trying to start a car moving with second gear instead of
first. Four E units can handle an 1800 ton train with about the same effort as a
single SD40, BUT......they will go faster most of the time, in places where you can
go fast.
That's enough about E units for now, I am taking SWMBO out to supper......Bye.
.........................F>
PEACHCREEK
engineers, the electrical engineers were generally regarded as people who
couldn't understand DeMorgan's theorum.
A sort of snobbery that was unjustified. Most of us who became electronic
engineers didn't understand three phase rotating machinery worth a hoot!
John Glaab
Froggy
>I ran across a discussion of the use of the term "double-e" in song
>lyrics the other day (http://arts.ucsc.edu/gdead/agdl/china.html) and
>there was much discussion about it, but no definitive answer.
And you probably are not going to get one here either.
There is nothing in railroading that I can think of that is known as "The Double E"
I think it is just something the songwriter put in there because it fit.
Do-wop
Be-bop-a-lula, that' s my baby
Sha-na-na
Ooo wah, ooo wah cool, cool kitty
Tell us about the boy from New York City.......
I could go on all night. All this stuff is gibberish that fills out the beat and
rhythm of the song. I think the Double E is just more of the same.
It doesn't actually mean anything.
...................F>
JB
In article <20020829201510...@mb-bh.aol.com>,
Norm Dresner
news:umta9rh...@corp.supernews.com...
George Washington University (in DC) had (and may still have) a
"Professional" degree that's everything for the PhD but the dissertation.
Norm
Trainman
<Froggy> wrote in message news:3d6ebe46...@news.mindspring.com...
Ooh Eee, Ooh Ah Ah, Ting, Tang, Walla Walla Bing Bang.
Don (What does do wa diddy diddy dum diddy do?)
--
don.de...@prodigy.net
http://www.geocities.com/don_dellmann
moderator: WisMode...@yahoogroups.com
moderator: MRP...@yahoogroups.com
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/MRPics
>
Jon Miller
That's the degree. We called them lazy PhD because of no dissertation.
I think there must have been a few schools that gave it out, remember I'm
talking of the 70's!
Sam Yorko
Our EL students had to take an Electromagnetics course with a lab, and
the lab used 480V 3 phase motor/generator sets. I actually ended up
teaching the labs for a few terms.
Sam
bardo
> On Thu, 29 Aug 2002 00:59:41 GMT, bardo <ba...@no.com> wrote:
>
> >I ran across a discussion of the use of the term "double-e" in song
> >lyrics the other day (http://arts.ucsc.edu/gdead/agdl/china.html) and
> >there was much discussion about it, but no definitive answer.
>
> And you probably are not going to get one here either.
>
> There is nothing in railroading that I can think of that is known as "The Double E"
>
> I think it is just something the songwriter put in there because it fit.
>
Quite possibly - anyway, thanks for all of the replies (everyone)
When you mentioned "string bands" in your earlier post, I had to smile as it sounds
kind of like a musical reference. Even though I'm not sure what a string band is in
the context you were speaking of, I kind of doubt it had anything to do with musical
bands playing stringed instruments.
I guess it's only fair to mention that a couple theories on the "double-e" reference
are that it has to do with a certain type of chord played on a fiddle or guitar. The
Hunter lyric also mentioned a fiddle, however, the Dylan and especially the Zevon lyric
do seem to be train-related, as someone else also mentioned.
>
> Do-wop
> Be-bop-a-lula, that' s my baby
> Sha-na-na
> Ooo wah, ooo wah cool, cool kitty
> Tell us about the boy from New York City.......
>
> I could go on all night. All this stuff is gibberish that fills out the beat and
> rhythm of the song. I think the Double E is just more of the same.
> It doesn't actually mean anything.
>
Noooo, it has to mean something <grin (cheshire-cat-style)>
Next time, I'll try asking y'all what a New Potato Caboose is.
All this has got me thinking about the many train references in Dead songs, and
wouldn't you know it, someone else has thought about it too - and published a web page.
Perhaps some of you would find it interesting -
http://www5.pair.com/rattenne/essay/dedtrain.html
Wow, a total of 17 songs (10 originals and 7 covers).
"I wish I was a headlight on a northbound train,
I'd shine my light in the cool Colorado rain"
Mark Mathu
> There is nothing in railroading that I can think of that is known as "The
> Double E" I think it is just something the songwriter put in there
> because it fit.
Except Warren Zevon's "Double E" lyrics seem deinitely railroad related:
I lay my head on the railroad tracks
Waiting for the double E
But the railroad don't run no more
Poor, poor, pitiful me.
Legendary Masked Modeller
>I ran across a discussion of the use of the term "double-e" in song
>lyrics the other day (http://arts.ucsc.edu/gdead/agdl/china.html) and
>there was much discussion about it, but no definitive answer.
>
I'm sorry. I've tried to resist this for sometime, but I can't. I
know, I'm weak. And of questionable morality. But double-e's, as a bra
size, are a bust man's dream. There, I've said it. Flame, if you,
must, this old grey head.
I'l change my posting preferences back to normal, now.
LMM
Dave
> Froggy wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 29 Aug 2002 00:59:41 GMT, bardo <ba...@no.com> wrote:
> >
> > >I ran across a discussion of the use of the term "double-e" in song
> > >lyrics the other day (http://arts.ucsc.edu/gdead/agdl/china.html) and
> > >there was much discussion about it, but no definitive answer.
> >
>
> Next time, I'll try asking y'all what a New Potato Caboose is.
>
> All this has got me thinking about the many train references in Dead songs, and
> wouldn't you know it, someone else has thought about it too - and published a web page.
>
> Perhaps some of you would find it interesting -
> http://www5.pair.com/rattenne/essay/dedtrain.html
>
> Wow, a total of 17 songs (10 originals and 7 covers).
>
>
> "I wish I was a headlight on a northbound train,
> I'd shine my light in the cool Colorado rain"
Bardo,
I must admit your original post had me do a double-take as I bounce
between this group and the Dead one.
I think that the Double E reference in China Cat is musical, kind of
like a double flat, considering Robert Hunter's reported state when he
wrote those lyrics I wouldn't put much store in the deep meanings. But
maybe, given your screen name you can explain the reference "Blade
Runner Bardo" in the Phil Lesh song Midnight Train.
I suspect the way a lot of these references work for guys like Dylan,
Hunter and possibly Zevon is like a game of telephone... Zevon cops
the reference from Dylan, who copped it from some old
blues/folk/bluegrass song, whose author copped it from an earlier song
etc. The Double E is probably originally a reference to some
branchline passenger. Any fallen flags out the that could be
abreviated the "E and E"
Ken Rice
tomb...@adelphia.net says...
>bardo <ba...@no.com> wrote in message news:<3D6EFDFF...@no.com>...
>> Froggy wrote:
>
>> > On Thu, 29 Aug 2002 00:59:41 GMT, bardo <ba...@no.com> wrote:
>> > >I ran across a discussion of the use of the term "double-e" in song
>> > >lyrics the other day (http://arts.ucsc.edu/gdead/agdl/china.html) and
>> > >there was much discussion about it, but no definitive answer.
>> Noooo, it has to mean something <grin (cheshire-cat-style)>
>> Next time, I'll try asking y'all what a New Potato Caboose is.
>> All this has got me thinking about the many train references in Dead songs,
>> and wouldn't you know it, someone else has thought about it too - and
>> published a web page.
>> Perhaps some of you would find it interesting -
>> http://www5.pair.com/rattenne/essay/dedtrain.html
>> Wow, a total of 17 songs (10 originals and 7 covers).
>> "I wish I was a headlight on a northbound train,
>> I'd shine my light in the cool Colorado rain"
>I must admit your original post had me do a double-take as I bounce
>between this group and the Dead one.
>I think that the Double E reference in China Cat is musical, kind of
>like a double flat, considering Robert Hunter's reported state when he
>wrote those lyrics I wouldn't put much store in the deep meanings. But
>maybe, given your screen name you can explain the reference "Blade
>Runner Bardo" in the Phil Lesh song Midnight Train.
>I suspect the way a lot of these references work for guys like Dylan,
>Hunter and possibly Zevon is like a game of telephone... Zevon cops
>the reference from Dylan, who copped it from some old
>blues/folk/bluegrass song, whose author copped it from an earlier song
>etc. The Double E is probably originally a reference to some
>branchline passenger. Any fallen flags out the that could be
>abreviated the "E and E"
This web site http://www.trainscan.com/data/mark/mark_m.html lists the
following:
EE Ellis and Eastern Company
EEC East Erie Commercial Railroad
EEIX Electric Energy Incorporated
EELX General Electric Rail Services Corporation
EERX Ebenezar Railcar Services Incorporated
--
Ken Rice -=:=- kennrice (AT) erols (DOT) com
http://users.erols.com/kennrice
Civil War Round Table of DC & Concentration Camp made of LEGO bricks
http://members.tripod.com/~kennrice
Maps of Ultima 7 Parts 1 & 2, Prophecy of the Shadow, Savage Empire,
Crusaders of Dark Savant & Others.
bardo
> bardo <ba...@no.com> wrote in message news:<3D6EFDFF...@no.com>...
> > Froggy wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 29 Aug 2002 00:59:41 GMT, bardo <ba...@no.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >I ran across a discussion of the use of the term "double-e" in song
> > > >lyrics the other day (http://arts.ucsc.edu/gdead/agdl/china.html) and
> > > >there was much discussion about it, but no definitive answer.
> > >
> > Noooo, it has to mean something <grin (cheshire-cat-style)>
> >
> > Next time, I'll try asking y'all what a New Potato Caboose is.
> >
> > All this has got me thinking about the many train references in Dead songs, and
> > wouldn't you know it, someone else has thought about it too - and published a web page.
> >
> > Perhaps some of you would find it interesting -
> > http://www5.pair.com/rattenne/essay/dedtrain.html
> >
> > Wow, a total of 17 songs (10 originals and 7 covers).
> >
> >
> > "I wish I was a headlight on a northbound train,
> > I'd shine my light in the cool Colorado rain"
>
> Bardo,
>
> I must admit your original post had me do a double-take as I bounce
> between this group and the Dead one.
>
> I think that the Double E reference in China Cat is musical, kind of
> like a double flat, considering Robert Hunter's reported state when he
> wrote those lyrics I wouldn't put much store in the deep meanings. But
> maybe, given your screen name you can explain the reference "Blade
> Runner Bardo" in the Phil Lesh song Midnight Train.
>
Still trying to figure that one out - given that Blade Runner is probably my favorite movie
of all time, I'm not even sure if it's a reference to the movie at all - I have yet to read
either the William Burroughs or Alan Nourse stories which also used the term Blade Runner and
Bladerunner, respectively. (That sounds like a good diversion for this weekend as I am
unable to go to Red Rocks as I had hoped I could).
Perhaps the song would seem more closely related to one of those than BR, the movie. There
certainly weren't any trains in the movie, or the Philip K. Dick novel upon which it was
loosely based (or was there? Come to think of it, I think Deckard may have taken a train on
his way to the Tyrell Corporation in the book - but, it's been a while since I read it.).
At any rate, in the liner notes for There and Back Again, the line is written as:
"Through the windows in an empty hall
oo-blade-runner Bardo"
I think many lyrics are not necessarily supposed to have any one meaning, but can be
interpreted in many ways, and on many different levels - it is up to the listener to find
their own meaning in them. At least that's what I like to do, but I also wonder about what
it may have meant to the author of the lyrics, as well as what it may mean to other
listeners.
But getting back to Midnight Train - I won't try to annotate the entire song (maybe later, I
will - Hmm - I just made a connection between that and Midnight Express (the
movie)....interesting, but that's probably a far-fetched notion)).
At any rate, in BR, the movie, "the windows in an empty hall" could be a reference to the
many plate glass windows that Zhora ran through as Deckard (the Blade Runner) "retired" her.
Pris also breaks a window, although it is just the one from J.F. Sebastian's van and she
doesn't actually go through it, but it is outside his apartment in The Bradbury building,
which is pretty much an "empty hall".
Perhaps Bardo is a subtle reference to the Bradbury? Later in the movie, Deckard climbs out
a window of the Bradbury as Roy Batty is closing in on him..
Another line earlier in the song is:
"You question me"
There is a certain amount of questioning the Blade Runners (both Deckard and Holden) did in
the movie.
But, perhaps all these are just imagined references on my part. It's not just windows that
people or things went through, but also walls (Holden goes through a wall as Leon shoots him,
Batty grabs Deckard through a wall, and shortly thereafter sticks his head through one (a
reference to Grace Slick's "Fat"? - from Baron von Tollbooth "So we all went through the
wall, no one uses doors anymore" - how's that for a stretch?))
Okay, I've got to stop before I ramble on all nite, but will close with this.
"Visions vanish in a flowing stream
Time slips away
Innocence in yearning flight"
One of the last scenes of the movie has Roy Batty and Deckard on the roof of the Bradbury as
it rains ("flowing stream"?).
Batty speaks:
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe." ("Visions")
" .... "
"All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.." ("vanish in a flowing stream")
"Time to die" ("Time slips away")
Batty then releases a white dove, which prompty flies away - "Innocence in yearning flight".
Okay, I've convinced myself - Midnight Train is definitely about Blade Runner, and the tie-in
to Midnight Express also works well, as that movie portrayed a relatively innocent person put
into the hell of a Turkish prison, much like the replicants of Blade Runner were imprisoned
in a sense. (Batty: "Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to
be a slave"). Certainly the guy in Midnight Express was forced to live in fear and was more
or less a slave, before he escaped.
But all this may just be the insane ramblings of my own imagination - as I said earlier, I
think it is up to the listener to find their own meanings in lyrics, and I think this also
applies equally well to movies.
The only thing I'm sure of anymore is that Deckard is NOT a replicant. (no, please, let's
not start that thread again).
Sorry to crosspost, but at this point, the thread definitely seems more appropriate to
alt.fan.blade-runner than to rec.models.railroad, but that's where it started.
>
> I suspect the way a lot of these references work for guys like Dylan,
> Hunter and possibly Zevon is like a game of telephone... Zevon cops
> the reference from Dylan, who copped it from some old
> blues/folk/bluegrass song, whose author copped it from an earlier song
> etc. The Double E is probably originally a reference to some
> branchline passenger. Any fallen flags out the that could be
> abreviated the "E and E"
An interesting idea, and one I had not thought of before, but it makes sense. Robert Hunter
certainly makes allusions to many pieces of literature and music in his lyrics, and I haven't
studied (if I can use that term for thinking about while listening to) Dylan's or Zevon's
lyrics as much, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised to find that they also make similar
allusions to earlier artistic endeavors.
Thanks for making me think - it's a fun thing to do.
- Bardo (B26420)
Pacific57
by a K.W. Jeter, the first of which DOES have a train in it.
-John
Evil Sponge
"bardo" <ba...@no.com> wrote in message news:3D7021B2...@no.com...
>
> Perhaps the song would seem more closely related to one of those than BR,
the movie. There
> certainly weren't any trains in the movie, or the Philip K. Dick novel
upon which it was
> loosely based (or was there? Come to think of it, I think Deckard may
have taken a train on
> his way to the Tyrell Corporation in the book - but, it's been a while
since I read it.).
>
Deckard rode a train near the start of the 1980 version of the script.
Patrick Meaney
>
> Deckard rode a train near the start of the 1980 version of the script.
>
There was talk on the group a while back that the train scene could be restored for
Ridley's new cut, though I'm not in favor.
--
Patrick
Netrunner
>> Deckard rode a train near the start of the 1980 version of the script.
>
>There was talk on the group a while back that the train scene could be restored for
>Ridley's new cut, though I'm not in favor.
The reason the train scene isn't in the film already is that the idea
was discarded before filming. So it can't be "restored" because it
doesn't exist.
Patrick Meaney
news:ban2nucjtoq0dullm...@4ax.com...
>
> The reason the train scene isn't in the film already is that the idea
> was discarded before filming. So it can't be "restored" because it
> doesn't exist.
>
I think the idea was that it would be put in with CG somehow. I'm not sure what the
exact scene was, but if it was just an atmosphere shot, they could do it with CG, then
drop in some other closeups of Ford, but I think it would defenitely look out of
place.
--
Patrick
Rick Jones
> I ran across a discussion of the use of the term "double-e" in song
> lyrics the other day (http://arts.ucsc.edu/gdead/agdl/china.html) and
> there was much discussion about it, but no definitive answer.
Here's another site with a discussion about Double-Es:
http://www.edlis.org/twice/threads/double_ees.html
--
Rick Jones
Remove the Extra Dot to e-mail me
Steve Caple
> Here's another site with a discussion about Double-Es:
> http://www.edlis.org/twice/threads/double_ees.html
---------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: I've always wondered...
From: mik...@ripco.com (Mike Stillman)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998
EE or "double E" is also a gauge of track width. Double
E locomotives were the largest trains on American
railroads, and a trainman who flagged down the double
E's was probably highly regarded by his peers.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, can anyone substantiate this, or should I go with my feeling that it
is complete, arrant, and thoroughly implausible bullcrap?
--
Steve
Big Fork & Diehl RR
* DO NOT look into Laser with remaining eye! *
KTØT
rails but not for trains.
Bob
http://www.vikascorporation.com/site/100avp/1140hens.htm
"Steve Caple" <steve...@spamworldnet.att.spamnet> wrote in message
news:MPG.17e1474b1...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
Joe Ellis
Caple <steve...@spamworldnet.att.spamnet> wrote:
>Rick Jones wrote:
>> Here's another site with a discussion about Double-Es:
>> http://www.edlis.org/twice/threads/double_ees.html
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------
> Subject: Re: I've always wondered...
> From: mik...@ripco.com (Mike Stillman)
> Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998
>
> EE or "double E" is also a gauge of track width. Double
> E locomotives were the largest trains on American
> railroads, and a trainman who flagged down the double
> E's was probably highly regarded by his peers.
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Okay, can anyone substantiate this, or should I go with my feeling that it
>is complete, arrant, and thoroughly implausible bullcrap?
>
According to my source (_The History of the Baltimore & Ohio_, Timothy
Jacobs, Crescent Books, page 65) the US railroads were standardized at
4'8.5" in 1886. Prior to that there were at least 23 different gauges in
use, ranging from 2 to six feet.
So this "EE" as a large gauge would have had to been before 1886. Highly
unlikely a modern song would have been referencing that - hell, most
people don't even know there IS more than one gauge.
I've _never_ seen a reference to a prototype track gauge "EE"... or, for
that matter, one referred to with any letter designation. Every
"non-standard" gauge reference has been "by the numbers"... the actual
measured gauge of the track.
--
Joe Ellis € The Synthetic Filker TesserAct Studios
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Froggy
>I've _never_ seen a reference to a prototype track gauge "EE"... or, for
>that matter, one referred to with any letter designation. Every
>"non-standard" gauge reference has been "by the numbers"... the actual
>measured gauge of the track.
"Wait'n for th' Double E" is nothing more than lyricist's license. It doesn't mean
anything.
There is no railroad argot in North America that uses the term "double E" to mean
anything.
The only halfway sensible thing I can think of is that "Double E" refers to a double
eagle AKA $20 gold coin.
...................F>
David Winter
imaginary.
DW
"Mark Mathu" <ma...@mathu.com> wrote in message
news:y%Db9.85819$mj7.1...@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
: Froggy wrote...
:
:
:
:
:
Frank A. Rosenbaum
--
From the computer of
Frank A. Rosenbaum
<Froggy> wrote in message news:3d78268d...@news.mindspring.com...
> On Thu, 05 Sep 2002 21:34:28 -0400, fil...@mindspring.com (Joe Ellis)
wrote:
>
>
> >I've _never_ seen a reference to a prototype track gauge "EE"... or, for
> >that matter, one referred to with any letter designation. Every
> >"non-standard" gauge reference has been "by the numbers"... the actual
> >measured gauge of the track.
>
>
> "Wait'n for th' Double E" is nothing more than lyricist's license. It
doesn't mean
> anything.
>
> There is no railroad argot in North America that uses the term "double E"
to mean
> anything.
It could be a subway or El route designation.
Steve Caple
Dave
> "Wait'n for th' Double E" is nothing more than lyricist's license. It doesn't mean
> anything.
>
> There is no railroad argot in North America that uses the term "double E" to mean
> anything.
>
> The only halfway sensible thing I can think of is that "Double E" refers to a double
> eagle AKA $20 gold coin.
>
> ...................F>
That's a fairly broad statement...can anyone be sure that there wasn't
someplace and time where something related to railroading wasn't
refered to as the "double e" by somebody.
It could just be an Elgin movement (...from her head down to her toes)
-Dave 'hopin' to catch a ride on the Double E' Mckenney
Audi McAvoy
> You're hilarious (sarcasm).
I wasn't attempting to be humorous -- so I don't understand the sarcasm.
The only thing I can think of that may be misinterpreted as a joke is my
"driving transistors" comment. In this context a "driver" typically refers
to the last stage of a circuit. The output of the driver would then be
coupled to the input of the next stage, etc. If you are designing circuits
based on transistor technology, then. . . (draw your own conclusion).
- am
Froggy
>Froggy wrote in message news:<3d78268d...@news.mindspring.com>...
>> There is no railroad argot in North America that uses the term "double E" to mean
>> anything.
>That's a fairly broad statement...can anyone be sure that there wasn't
>someplace and time where something related to railroading wasn't
>refered to as the "double e" by somebody.
Find it
And then prove it
........................F>
Dave
Hmmm....ok, first pass:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r6/r6-1042.jpg
Sure looks like a train, has two "E"s on the front and the report I
have is as follows:
"The EE (now the E (?)) was also a route on the NYC subway (the
Broadway line
of the BMT (Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit)) that went from Queens down
Broadway in Manhattan and eventually to Brooklyn."
I've got to suspect that there is not many NYC residents (especially
for whom English is the first language) that would have waited for the
"E-E Train", that doesn't flow off the tongue no matter how you try.
I'm sure it would have been dubbed "Double E".
I'll admit this is a little thin, and if you wish I'll continue
looking for proof that somebody called it the "Double E" train. I
also think that we aren't necessarily looking for railroad argot
(which I define as lingo used by RR workers etc) but what the guy
who's waiting for it would have called it.
Now that that's said, got any advice for assembling Funaro and
Camerlengo car kits, I've never built a resik car before
Dave
Mark Mathu
> I lay my head on the railroad tracks
> Waiting for the double E
> But the railroad don't run no more
> Poor, poor, pitiful me.
"L.A. Rock Musician Warren Zevon Terminally Ill"
Acerbic singer-songwriter Warren Zevon, best known for the hit song
'Werewolves of London,' has been diagnosed with terminal lung cancer,
his publicist said on Thursday.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020912/people_nm/people_zevon_dc_2
Steve Caple
> terminal lung cancer
My first thought was the logo printed on the CD of 'Transverse City' - a
skull with a cigarette in its mouth. I guess lawyers, guns and money won't
help now.
--
Steve
Big Fork & Diehl RR
* Simulate Prototypicality! *
Sunnyfield
called the "Double EE". There is also an "RR" line and that too is called the
"double R".
I have been travelling NYC Subways for over 50 years and have seen and heard it
all (that is until next week when I'll see/hear something that will blow me
away once again!
I once wrote a humerous essay that spoke of a newtype ride that would be
guaranteed to alarm you, shake you, blow cold/hot air on you, threaten you,
etc., etc. and when the reader got to the end, only THEN did I mention that I
was writing about a ride on the NYC Subway system.
Dave
steves...@gmail.com
meh...@gmail.com
"On October 17, C.W. Crounty, yard brakeman, observed defect in car in train of extra east No. 6008 at Piedmont as it was passing. He notified crew, who stopped train and had car repaired."
Not that the song is talking about this exact incident, but similar events occurred frequently, and I'll bet you a dime to a doughnut that those "extra east" trains were called "double e's" all the time.
meh...@gmail.com
jsa...@ecn.ab.ca
> Zevon lyric (full lyrics at
> http://www.lyrics.jp/lyrics/W000600010011.asp):
> "Laid my head on the railroad track, waitin' for the Double E.
> But the railroad don't run no more. Poor, poor pitiful me."
Since Zevon was based in _Chicago_, I would think that the EE train in New York
isn't likely. Plus, of course, the New York Subway hasn't ceased operations.
And the term meaning a train pulled by two E-units; no way. Doesn't fit the
context.
But what does fit perfectly is if it's a reference to the Lake Erie & Eastern
railroad.
With the other songs, it isn't quite as clear or unambiguous, but this one, I
think, only leaves that as a possibility.
John Savard
jsa...@ecn.ab.ca
more often than subway trains, I think that the Lake Erie & Eastern is also the
more likely explanation.
In the case of the Grateful Dead lyric, on the other hand, I think it's fairly
obviously the musical note E that is referred to... _if_ it had anything to do
with trains, the "double-E gauge theory" would be the only possibility.
John Savard
Robert Levinson
John Jackson
The Zevon song, though? (Poor, Poor, Pitiful Me) He was from Chicago and based in Los Angeles. I wonder if one of the Pacific Railroad Street Cars from Los Angeles was called the 'EE' line. I did a quick google search this morning and I couldn't find anything specific about those street car lines and their designations. To an Angeleno in the 70s, there were a lot of railroad tracks around the city with no trains/street cars running on them anymore. The other option is Chicago's trains and elevated trains changing in the 70s as well. The 'Double E' could easily be 'the Evening Express', which could be the name of a night route for a street car. It might only stop if you flagged it down, so you pass out with your head on the tracks so the rumbling of the train and its braking and whistle would wake you up. At least, that 'makes sense' when I think like an exhausted alcoholic.